Following the announcement of Preliminary Notice of AGM set for 19 June 2009, several members of the core TTG group have, yesterday, submitted seven (7) resolutions on various areas of concern to the Board of Deacons (BOD) for inclusion in the agenda for the AGM.
For the benefit of all concerned Calvarites, the details of the resolutions will be published in CT in a later posting together with the rationale or explanation for the resolutions. The TTG group hopes that this third time round, the BOD will accord some respect to the members’ rights as enshrined in our Church Constitution and allow the resolutions to be tabled. Please pray that the BOD will accept this in the right spirit.
2. CALL FOR DIALOGUE
The core TTG group met for prayers on Tuesday and took some time to debate on the call to have dialogues with the BOD. As we have stated before, the TTG group has always been upfront on their desire to resolve the many issues and concerns affecting our Church within our local Calvary body. From the onset more than a year ago, it was the TTG core members who wrote individually to the BOD and pastors to voice their concerns. Individually as well as in small groups, they have also met with various pastors including Senior Pastor (SP) and BOD on several occasions.
In the last meeting with the BOD on 31 May 2008, the group gave a 7-page memo setting out all the areas of concern with proposed solutions and suggestions. Sadly, hardly anything has developed from that.
The TTG group reaffirms that they are open to meeting the BOD if and when they are called. The TTG group will even welcome CU and CK to join the dialogue.
The group, however, felt that there is no necessity to suspend the CT blog for 2 weeks as suggested by the anonymous “Discernment Needed” especially since the AGM date has been fixed not too far away and members need to be kept abreast of the developments.
3. WEAR WHITE NO MORE
All concerned members who support the call for truth, transparency and governance need not wear white for Sunday services anymore. Of course, if anyone wish to wear white because they love white, they are perfectly free to do as they wish.
The group are of the opinion that their cause has been well-publicized and that the majority of the members are now quite informed of the situation in Calvary Church.
4. STATEMENT FROM AN EX-DEACON
As announced in an earlier post, CT publishes here a statement from Dr Paul Nah, an ex-deacon of Calvary Church who served the Church for 18 years from 1978 to 1996. Dr Paul Nah came as a witness for Dr Lum for the Inquiry on 28 February 2009 but was, unfortunately, not given the chance to testify.
(Click on image above to enlarge)
5. EXPENSES BY COMMUNICATION DEPT
Also as announced in the earlier post, CT publishes below a page from the Missions accounts for December 2002. Therein you will see an expenditure of RM21,000 incurred by the Calvary Communication Dept for the purchase of 8 wireless microphones and 1 headphone.
In the previous month November 2002, the Communication Department spent RM53,731 on various audio video equipment and software. This Department’s purchase of equipments and overheads are funded by the Missions Fund (from Faith Promise pledges) but income surpluses from sales of AV tapes are not returned to the Missions Fund or the Church.
As was seen in last year’s presentation of the accounts at the AGM, this Department has a fairly large cash balance in its bank account and yet, it continues to be funded from Faith Promise pledges.
The BOD’s plan is that this extended ministry will, one day, become independent. We cannot imagine how any church could ever allow such an integral part of church ministry to become independent. It is ludicrous, to say the least.
(Click on image above to enlarge)
57 comments:
Dear CT, a big thank you to the TTG group for assisting Calvarites understand better. May I request a translation of Dr. Nah's letter, the seven resolutions, and the accounts (if this is possible) into Chinese?
Praise the Lord!
In the Easter Story : HE IS ALIVE presentation. 807 people came forward for various needs. Of which 447 were for salvation and rededication. God is good!
This year presentation was indeed a very good one. Many are grateful for the organizer & participants for their efforts & works. Thank God for using Calvary Church & her members for a wonderful Easter presentation. God bless.
Praise The Lord indeed!
This shows that someone has spread rumours to frighten people to foul up the Easter event in Putra stadium BUT GOD IS STILL IN CONTROL and HE REIGNS OVER ALL. AMEN!
2ndly, SP did not preach one night and yet people responded to the salvation call shows that GOD IS REALLY STILL THE ONE WHO SAVES AND THE HOLY SPIRIT IS THE ONE WHO CONVICTS. AMEN!
3rdly, CC members should be proud that inspite of all the problems around, members still work together for the GOSPEL SAKE. God is no respecter of anyone, whether SP or Pastors or Deacons or TTG. CALVARY CHURCH IS GOD'S HOUSE AND HE WILL NOT LET ANYONE STAND IN THE WAY TO FULFILL HIS PURPOSE, THE SALVATION OF SOULS. AMEN!
Glory Glory Hallelujah
Glory Glory Hallelujah
Glory Glory Hallelujah
His Truth Keeps Marching On.
God is great. We continue to witness His Divine Intervention for His revelation will cast away doubt disbelief and disunity
Somebody commented that i'm a blind sheep in a previous comment linked to another post. So, I hope you guys are also not a blind sheep following whatever that is being fed.
Let us start by investigating if it is possible that 8 wireless mics and 1 headphone cost RM21k in the year 2002. From what I know, a set of mic consist of 3 or 4 components and they are expensive. Correct me if I'm wrong.
It is very true that God uses the Church to reach out to the world. God uses people whom He has blessed to be His vessels to minister to others.
Our God is a gracious God and He allows us to be His instruments to minister to nonbelievers.
God works miracles despite our shortcomings but it does not mean that when we, His children (and holding leadership positions in church) have done wrong and failed Him that we can continue to go our own wanton ways and ignore His warnings ...just because we see fruits from our works.
Question for pastors and BOD: As leaders are they not aware that their actions can stumble others and cause many to fall away from the faith? Are they not aware that they are to be examples to the flock and nonbelievers?
Will God's mercy and graciousness be ignored and stubborness continue on the presumption that they still yield results for others to see?
No our good deeds will not justify our wrongs nor wash away our sins.
It is only by grace we are forgiven. We pray that our leaders will honestly and truly examine themselves and not be presumptuous...May His small and gentle voice speak to pastors and BOD and that will address the serious issues at hand. We pray that something good will come out of this crisis despite all the ulgyness .
Easter has come and gone but still we are waiting. Will pastors and BOD do something constructively according to God's ways instead of dragging their feet and being busy with man's ways of solving the matters?
May God show His mercy and send His fire to cleanse and renew Calvary Church starting with the altars through to the sanctuary. We need a fresh outpouring of His presence in our midst! Who can stand in the presence of the Lord... only those who are washed by the blood of the Lamb and who have been sanctified by His Holy Spirit.
We bow down in awe and submission to the Holy and Almighty God!
Hallelujah! Our God reigns!
What this set of accounts and the previous one show us is Communications Dept has expensive taste and SP Jr has no reservations spending big money for his dept. Obviously, his father does not stop him spending church money to buy expensive equipment.
I know of depts in church that needs to explain long story to dept head to get reimbursement for church member's claim of just less than RM100-00.
Looks like there is no fair distribution of budget in our church ministries.
You can be sure that your resolutions will be thrown out, even though it is blatantly unconstitutional. You have alot of time to think what you should do if they throw them out again. Are you going to let them do so when it is definitely wrong of them to do so?
We have always look with respect and highly to pastors/evangelists from America. Let us take a cue from them and see what happened to three famous and popular pastors who had fallen.
Jim Bakker was a televangelist who had the PTL ministry with a annual income of USD129 million, physical assets approaching USD100 million. Jim Bakker had several luxury homes and a Rolls-Royce. In 2002, he and his then-wife owe more than USD3 million in back taxes and interest to IRS which may have escalated to USD4 million.
Jim Bakker was found guilty and sentence to prison for five years for fraud and conspiracy.
After leaving prison, he finds new life and a new ministry.
Jimmy Swaggart was a televangelist, had three spacious homes, a personal jet, an electronic empire with millions of viewers, income from contributions of USD150 million a year.
He had brought the downfall of Jim Bakker. Jimmy Swaggart's impropriety brought his own downfall which was exposed by a private investigator and Marvin Gorman, also an AOG minister.
His Family Worship Center had 6000 members. He spoke to family, congregation and audience saying "I have sinned against you, my Lord and I would ask that your precious blood would wash and cleanse every stain until it is in the seas of God's forgiveness."
He had also said "I take the responsibility. I take the blame. I take take the fall."
He resigned from his ministry after his impropriety was revealed.
Ted Haggard's fall was because of sexual impropriety and to buying illegal drugs. His accuser was Mike Jones.
"I am guilty of sexual immorality... a deceiver and a liar." Haggard confesses. In a letter read from the pulpit of Colorado Springs New Life Church with 14000 members, former senior pastor Ted Haggard admitted that allegations against him are true.
In November 2006, he resigned from leadership roles at the National Association of Evangelicals and his megachurch New Life Church.
Since the scandal broke, attendance at New Life Church has been down about 20% with financial support falling 10% About 44 employees (12%of the staff) has been laid off.
I am quoting the above examples of pastors who fall because one was sent to prison for fraud and two who were man-enough to face the truth and resigned from leadership roles. No "ifs" and "buts", just accepting the truth that they had failed in their spiritual walk. A commentator William Martin said about Haggard "But Ive seen him change over the years. He really seems to have been seduced by the power and fame." This remark rings a bell of similarity in our own backyard, right?
Btw, the private investigator and Marvin Gorman who brought Swaggart's fall and Mike Jones who brought down Haggard, are they Church antagonists? Or exposing pastors who preach and profess to have a high level of morality and integrity but do not walk the talk?
hi, CT
This is the place where I will comment..CT is effective and efficient..whereas still the other
site dwelling in their Easter and EGM when the church already announced the upcoming AGM on 19th June last Sunday at the Putra Stadium.
However, I still cant resist the temptation to response my viewpoint on comment of EGM from the other site, one of the CRC personnel ( a lady , shouting at one of the brother who stood up to ask question. The boyfriend of her daughter Mr Ma.....also shouted at the same brother, a mid thirty years old lawyer also shouted, a 'blue shirt' guy ( an indian guy who shouted and want to go home to sleep) also shouted at the same brother....a wife of a newly nominees deacon also uttered 'foul word' after she had spoken...
Readers, go ask for viewing of the EGM cd from the church. See it for yourself, who is rude and unruly??
again, the alternate blogs are not even bothering to apologize for their wrong accusations and lies. what sort of 'peace' and 'unity' is this...what hypocrites.
To Zoophobia
You have missed the point. I am not an accountant but I understand (correct me Accountants)that it is wrong to use Mission funds (which should be used for other purposes) in the first place to purchase equipment. Equipment are assets of the church and should be reflected in the main church account, i.e. funds from the main church account should be used to purchase the equipment. Therefore the point is the wrong fund had been used to purchase the equipment.
Firstly I would like to thank the TTG (Core) Group for considering my suggestion to suspend the blog for 2 weeks notwithstanding that the decision is otherwise. I sincerely thought this act would go a long way in terms of "confidence building". Anyway, I am appreciative that you took time to think about it.
Secondly, I am also positive concerning the statement made ... "The TTG group reaffirms that they are open to meeting the BOD if and when they are called. The TTG group will even welcome CU and CK to join the dialogue."
Thirdly, I don't know whether this was done but it would have made a world of difference if the TTG Group at least made an attempt to discuss the the seven (7) proposed resolutions with the BOD before officially submitting it. Perhaps there is some timing issue but if time could accomodate it, that would have been the most appropriate and preferred way - i.e. let the BOD know that these are the concerns/resolution and whether there is a place to discuss it with them (BOD) to see what can be done before making it official. If the BOD does not want to discuss, well that's a different matter. I guess that's too late now but if this was an option not taken, then it was an opportunity lost for dialogue and moving to the middle ground.
Anyway, its never too late to start talking for the sake of the unity of the Body! God Bless!
Hi Not Fair,
You are right this shows expensive taste of PG and family. This expenditure is just a tiny small sampling of the costly audio equipment that Calvary Communications experts team have spent ... Just wait till the sums are finalised for CCC!
The proposed budget is RM 25 million just for audio sound system for CCC, but then you never know what sum it will finally reach? Better watch out or it may be just too late for us... miserable members? There is no transperancy in just how monies are spent in CC until some concerned members find out in unconventional ways.
Do you think it is wise Christian stewardship to spend so much on just audio/sound equipment as against the actual use of funds for spreading the Gospel and meeting needs for works of the church?
I am sure there are many urgent needs that need to be addressed but they are overlooked while the leadership justifies itself to spend extravagantly on items that are not real necessities and for which less costly equipment could have served the purpose.
We wonder whether pastors and BOD can honestly say that there is wise management and allocation of church monies and the correct prioritisation of expenditures. Is there fair and just conduct of church affairs and sound and wise financial management in view that Church monies run into so many millions?
It is high time that members are truly in the know of church affairs rather than just leave it by faith and absolute trust in our pastors and BOD.
Those days that we have total belief and trust in CC pastors and BOD are gone!
yup, Calvary thinks its ok to spend RM21k for some walkie talkie for the communications ministry but can't even fork out few thousand to pay for ps Phil's airfare...what's the logic in that.
I have been attending CC for a long long time even before Pg became our pastor. When a 2nd offering is collected on the first Sunday of each month, there are explicit reasons for the collection. We give because we sense needs but when it goes to fund AV equipment, is it not a breach of trust?
I CANNOT RECALL HEARING A MISSIONS OFFERING BEING TAKEN TO BUY EQUIPMENT FOR AV DEPT....can someone kindly verify whether I hear correctly or not?
In fact during the task force I did question the task force when extended ministries have surplus funds, should it not be returned to the church? The answer given was NOT NECESSARILY?
At that point of time it did not dawn on me that AV was under JG, Bookshop under PG2, CLM under PG....wah....thanks TTG I think I now understand the reply given by the task force. Why must all these extended money making ministries be runned by G family?
Why are they not running purely social concerns like street ministry, calvary land, sunshine home etc?
Thanks ABC for highlighting and asking why G family is not running purely social concerns like Street ministry, Calvaryland, Sunshine Home.
My guess is because these are concerns that have no glamour, yield no good returns but instead cause a lot of pain and stress. Yes but take the true Christian example of Mother Theresa, she really cared for the poor and destitute and rejected in life. She gave of all that she had, her life and abilities. She never expected any glamour or even recognition and least of all, material wealth.
Mother Theresa gave her all for missions work to those who have no means at all to pay her back in any kind except love and gratitude!
That I would say is real missions!
Where is the heart of compassion in our Missions Department and the SP and family of CC? Or is that CC is just treated like a family business but under the banner of Calvary Church? Is there some semblance that PG is CEO and PG2 is Deputy CEO and children and in-laws are Managing Directors and Directors of various subsidiaries in CC Group of Companies?
Do we see that Associate Pastors and BOD as just support staff to carry out the functions of the various divisions/ departments in the companies? To basically carry out the decisions of the Board of Directors and no questions to be asked? Sad to say the APs and BOD are acting under heavy sediation (intense submission) but they keep saying they are absolutely fine.
Thank God for raising TTG group a year ago to alert members and worshippers and to evaluate what has happened to our Church.
We must realise that Calvary Church does not belong to PG and his family. The Church belongs to all the members and many, who could have temporarily taken leave from CC, and who laboured sacrificially along with God to build the Body to what it is today. Can any pastor or leader take credit for CC and its achievements? It is God who should receive all glory and honour!
PG may have been used by God for a season but no man is indispensible. All men have fallen short of God's glory and everyone has to examine our hearts before God. This is a continuous process we have to go through.
We know anyone may stumble and fall but one must be humble and know how to ask God for forgiveness and restoration. Can anyone claim immunity?
No none at all.
Hence, what lessons can we learn from the whole crisis? As matters are just not right in CC, even the outside world knows... let us, all leaders and members come before God and ask for forgiveness before God and repent from our wrongful ways...Let our pastors and BOD lead the way.
Let the Holy Spirit take over and let truth, justice and righteousness reign again in CC.
God is merciful and gracious! AMEN.
To Abc,
I think you got it wrong here. The money used to buy the AV equipment is not from the 2nd Monthly Missions Offering. It is paid from Faith Promise Fund which we make pledges to pay every month. The monthly budget does allocate a certain sum (quite large actually) for purchase of equipment. Come June we will be making another Faith Promise Pledge. I think we must specify that the money we give is to go for Missions Work like Street Ministry, Calvaryland and Sunshine home. Write it on the pledge cards. On 2nd thoughts, maybe don't pledge anything until they sort the issues first.
Yeah don't simply make pledges to give money anymore until we are sure what the money is going to be used for. Don't want some big shot's kids buying expensive gadgets without considering that the money came from hard working people who had to sacrifice to give.
Hi Zoophobia,
Very well said, "Let us start by investigating if it is possible that 8 wireless mics and 1 headphone cost RM21k in the year 2002." Your question I presume is, Is it possible?
For you and I, not possible. With CC, it is possible (plenty of money in the bank). With SP's son, more possible (just get daddy to sign the cheque). Coming soon, will be absolutely possible, why? Father and son can sign cheques.
But seriously, that's why there is a great need for a Truth Committe, to investigate the truth. So many things don't seem possible but a/cs don't lie. So what is the possibility of 8 mics & 1 headphone = 21k? Only an investigation by Truth Committee can find out.
Hey Joel Wong, don't you think what you are doing here is despicable
To:
Calvary Today
As I reader, how come CT appeared to be 'pro' Discernment Needed'? reason being his/her repeated comments had been published in few posts. He/she using lots of psychology to 'extract' actions from among concerned members through CT. I am quite doubful of his/her role.
Why should concerned members meet up with bod first before submission of the resolution?? Even when they were to meet up, it will be the same old stories they will tell the concerned members( truly this had happened 2 days ago)
I supposed the reason why church announced the AGM 2 months ahead without any other resolution in their prelimanary notice has got a very 'secret agenda' right?? members are given 7 days to submit the resolution and counting from Sunday.. Why should the BOD post the EGM on Sunday when knowing that that was the Sunday all of us will bei going to the Putra Stadium for Sunday/Easter Service??
Given short notice from Sunday to Saturday, 12/apr to 18/apr) to members for submission of resolution and given 2 months for bod to prepare themselves, this time I hope they will do a proper job.
I read the letter here from Professor Dr Nah, clearly..what Dr Lum had said is true. I must salute Dr Nah for this article, CT--good job.
????????????????????????
What on earth is "TMC B'sar" (April 18, 2009 12:56 PM)talking about?
Is he/she/it implying that Joel is behind CT?
It is despicable to simply accuse Joel Wong or anyone, for that matter.
CT was started by the core TTG members, not Joel, read the post "Calvary Today Hits 100,000" on 23 Jan.
Jim G's expenses using faith promise budget just only tip of the ice berg.
Many church staff salaries, equipments purchases, vehicles and maintenance also paid from missions. The surplus of faith promise collections over the budget also goes to CCC
So only a fraction is really used for real missions work or actually given away. But they tell whole world they gave so much to missions, but bulk of it actually channeled back to extended ministries, CCC and church.
But they will argue that everything in the church is missions work even the gardener's work.
Our church are like Ananias and Sapphira in disguise.
NECF BLOG
This message is to the owners of Calvary Today. I request your permission to post the following in your Blog.
This morning (18APRIL09) I have suggested to the NECF Research Commission that the NECF create a BLOG so that Malaysian Christians can blog and share concerns they may have on issues related to Christianity such as Church leadership, Good Governance, Freedom of Religion, etc. Of course the Blog will be secure and moderated etc.
Persuasion is the key. Hence your feedback will assist in the setting up of such a Blog. Please share your views and suggestions so that Christians in Malaysia may have a platform to voice their concerns and opinions.
I sincerely hope that such a Blog is created and advertised to local churches.
The Calvary Today Blog is an excellent example and a runner way success. Let us assist our brothers and sisters in others churches so that they too may have a platform to speak and voice their concerns etc.
We need to persuade the National Christian organisations such as the NECF, the AOG, the CFM etc. to start their own respective blogs. Even the PM has his own blog! So does the Bar Council! I am also going to make this suggestion at the up coming CFM National Church Conference 2009 this month.
I pray that Calvary Today will be the prelude to other Christian Organisations setting up similar blogs.
Dear bloggers, your suggestions and feedback is important.
Thank you Calvary Today.
Vijay
Dear Joel,
Please do not react to TMC B'sar's comment. It is quite obvious why they are attacking you personally. It was a good thing you did to speak up for Pastor Phil during the EGM and I'm sure that Pastor Phil will be glad when he finds out. Just to encourage you a little, to make things right, core TTG together with some parents of youths who attended that Youth Camp have chipped in and gave a special love gift to Pastor Phil. We have already sent it to him.
With regards to the issues we have in church, do not get worked up and try to stay out of it. Since you spoke out at the EGM, they assume you are TTG not willing to accept that you spoke from your heart and on your own accord. And since you are no more in leadership, they cannot axe you like they did others, they attack you in the blogs. Stay cool and continue to live faithful to our Lord Jesus Christ and let your conscience be clear before God. God bless.
Thank you, Dr. Paul Nah for your courage and your honesty....the Lord bless you for speaking out against the unethical practices of PG1 & PG2 - now as the saga unfolds I find that Calvarites had been taken for a ride for 37 years under the leadership & administration of the Guneratnams. No wonder they have Swiss Bank accounts, American bank accounts and Singapore bank accounts to stash their vast wealth. Were they serving the Lord or were they serving themselves and their own interests?
It's time for change.
It's time for sleeping Calvarites to wake-up and speak out against the unrighteousness, the lies, the deception, the covetuousness, the hypocrisy practised by the pastors & the BOD.
Hello, Friends/concerned members
Are we playing masak-masak now?? Trying so hard to know who is behind the Calvary Today??
Like many commentors quoted before, this blog belongs to a very large group of concerned members, please do not said that you are friend of who and who and this blog belongs to who and who.
If ever CU/CK trying very hard to play the mathematical approach of elimination of names, none of us should believed what they said, they are simply 'guessing' and 'intimidating', and why should any of us fall into their trap?
Let me emphasize again, CT belongs to large number of people, till date, I still do not who the owner are...I read many different ones quote different names, but I dont believe any of these names anyway...
TMC Bangsar...you are the despicable and evil one for accusing Joel for being the creator. He has already mentioned in CU that he is NOT the creator and has never been the creator or administrator of CT. So you people better stop accusing him of something that is not true. You are the despicable one, TMC Bangsar. Despicable and evil.
What Aunty Karen said was wise and true.
People like TMC Bangsar targetted Joel because he was brave enough to speak up for Dr. Phil at the EGM. People like TMC Bangsar cannot cope with truth and expose....they thrive on deception & cover-ups! E.g. CU even suggested to sack Sam Ho for speaking up at the EGM!! How low can they stoop?
Let's just watch how LOW-DOWN they will stoop to stop truth from prevailing!! But they are already defeated....judging from the way they target individuals who speak up for the truth. Boy-o-boy they are afraid, really afraid...aren't they?
Aunty Karen is right, Joel. Don't over-react to their accusations & lies & slander. Their sins will soon find them out!!
Take heart! Truth shall prevail!
Dear CC members who have high blood pressure and those are dont have high blood pressure,
Please do not read CU's blog or their comments if you have high blood pressure, cos it will go even higher.
For those who dont have, please dont read too cos you will get it if you do.
Their comments are so.... aiyo... dont know how to describe it. Sigh...
TTG – COMPROMISE/ MIDDLE ROAD is not the way forward
If 100% is the RIGHT WAY(RW) & 100 % is the WRONG WAY (WW):
If we COMPROMISE then:
(100% RW + 100% WW) ÷ 2 =
(50 % RW + 50% WW)= 100%
AFTER COMPROMISING
There is still the same 100% but you have now
50% RIGHT WAY &
50% WRONG WAY
Church governance must be 100% MORALLY RIGHT not mixture of 50%RIGHT and 50% WRONG.
Between RIGHT & WRONG, only the RIGHT WAY must be chosen.
And THE RIGHT WAY may have several options, which gives you a choice.
That is why you cannot negotiate with PG1 & BOD for a middle road. Their way is the immoral way
WHEN THE CONCRETE IS SET
MALLEABILITY IS LOST.
Flexibility is inversely proportional to age.
After the same leaderships style for 40 years
And the same style repeated in just the last EGM
And the same style applied to Dr. Lum,
Does the TTG think that things will change by compromising with
PG1??
Then your optimism comes with tremendous faith,
Unequalled ever before.
Inflexibility is a state that is totally irreversible with certain types of personality!
Discernment needed --- RED HERRING
Discernment needed and the middle road maybe just a red herring. There is no evidence of PG1 & BOD sincerely and clearly wanting a reconciliation. Despite my disdain for their ways I do not think they need a third party to mediate for them. They can communicate with TTG people directly or through the mobile. If TTG does not want to discourage “discernment needed”, whom I think is sincere though not realistic, then maybe set aside a person to liaise with him/her. I am sure there are a lot of material to review for the AGM which should take the highest priority. PG1 & BOD are not very gracious losers.
Amazing, I thought that site promote Amen/Unity, now they are chasing Christian away..
Dr Paul Nah is merely exercising God's given authority to promote good governance and honesty and based on God's conviction to bring forth some evidential truth, and he had not any financial gain, yet he is now being 'maliciously' condemned by supporter of PG. How can??
Hello everybody who is reading CK/CU. What do you expect them to say, TTG very good and doing a good job of exposing their wrong doings. Of course not! I suggest we do not read (I don't and am not interested at all)or if you do, please keep your comments to yourself.
CT here is addressing issues pertaining to our church problems and trying to gather information from us how to move forward. CT is not here to discuss about what they are saying. It's sheer wasting time.
If you read CK/CU then be prepared to read bad things about TTG. Otherwise read CT and give suggestions on how to move forward and plan for the EGM. Don't bother our TTG brothers and sisters with the unnecessary and let them have peace to plan for the EGM.
The alternate blogs' true colours have come out...they are not interested in peace nor unity. all they want is to spread lies, promote disunity and allow the devil to use them.
The one who is causing the split in God's house is NOT Dr. Nah nor Dr. LUM, no any of the TTG who are merely speaking up for truth and transparency!
Those who are causing the split are PG, PG2, APs & the bOD who are obviously liars and want to sweep a lot of stuff under the carpet and they are trying to silence the truth-speakers!
Well, you won't succeed CU & CK! Truth shall always prevail!
April 19, 2009 8:42 AM
Agree with stay away if you can't take it on 18 april 10.46 pm Last time once in a while I will read CU or CK, but instead of getting encouraged or getting some sensible comments, I fouund their comments to be condemning and unedying. I get spiritually down, I know it is from the devil so I better stay away from them. Now I only ready CT. People like HM, Datuk KC, Lisa, Karen, etc, they are spirit filled Christians, and what they write or do bring a whole lots of difference. I really appreciate what they have done. To God be the glory great things He has done
A reply to Discernment Needed: April 17, 2009 10:49 PM
Your rationale and acceptance of the ‘Explanation’ given by those involved regarding the transfer of the Missions to CIM, does seem persuasive.
Why do I say that?
The fact is, many like you and me are not aware of what really transpired behind the scene and what was on their minds or in their hearts.
Besides, any trusting member would never ever be able to even guess in his/her wildest imagination what those people did, they deemed was good in their own eyes.
However, please verify with Ps Peter the former Missions Director, if he had said : "Missions department used to have a ‘FOREIGN MISSIONS’ Ministry, but since CIM was formed, its function/role has been ‘transferred to /undertaken by CIM, as the work and duties under the former had been carried out by Sr, Pastor, and they are the same."
If you had been long enough in the church, ( Which I believe you are) you would know that the Foreign Missions Ministry, was a Key part of Calvary’s missions for ( genuine) evangelistic work. (which the men and other leaders including associate pastors were actively involved)
So, tell me what benefit was there that this well established Foreign Ministry was dissolved or conveniently ‘given over’ to CIM? Surely, it does not take a smart-Alec to realize there is a world of difference between attending Conferences by the President and SAP his wife & Vice President of CIM (a Personal Ministry), and actual Foreign Missions work of Calvary church!
Similarly, Why would CARE which was originally managed by the Missions Dept. belonging to Calvary Church be dissolved and went to CARED of CIM?
Q. Why were such an important move/decisions not brought before the members for deliberation, but done rather HUSH -HUSH?
Please, remember, SP openly/publicly declared at the AGM, that “CIM is MY PERSONAL MINISTRY and hence any Questions related/concerning CIM should NOT be asked in the Church, but be directed to me”
SP has, by this statement declared a clear SEPARATION of CIM from the Church.
YET, in reality CIM continue to pass-off as an Extended Ministry of CC. ( CIM’s official brochure, under the heading ‘Pictorial Testimonies’ showed events/ activities/ Missions undertaken by Calvary Church )
YET, the Missions Director could not draw the line between what is Personal and what is Church’s Ministry.
YET, the BOD defended at a high cost (using the Church Funds for Professional Services)and to this day, insisted there was no wrong even when CIM finally returned the money to Missions.
YET, Discernment you asked:"What is the intention (or in other terms, the objective, purpose, “the end result”) of the action taken?" and Conclude that "there was no bad/evil intention" (?)
To me it's clear SP has used CIM & CC as his stage to propel himself for self glory & self interest. I can only deduced from all that one could see through his actions, talk, and behavior and testimonies of others within & without, of his sly ways, that the 'Intent' is not so difficult to discern. Nevertheless, I have to agree with you that "each of you have to decide on this" and may I add, to base on the facts and the events that have unfolded over this 13 months, if not decades ago.
Tks for telling me that AV's expensive equipment funds come from faith promise and not missions budget.
However, the next question I need to ask is there a better use of faith promise than AV equipment which is already very expensive - like mikes etc? Are there no check and balances, comparison of prices before purchases are made so there will not be hanky-panky deals?
I know some people are crazy in purchasing top class equipment - if they have the money, go ahead but in this instance AV dept through the sale of tapes, cd, vcd have been making money, why shouldn't they make use of their money rather than drain the faith promise funds?
The present leadership does not seem to care a wee bit about the sacrifice normal wage earners have to make to fulfil their faith promise.
It is little wonder that many now want to become their own missions diretors by giving to more deserving people and causes.
Abc
Posted at both CT & CU
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Jesus proclaimed in Matt 5:8 - "Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called the sons of God!"
How strange it is then that those who are called followers of Jesus and who are in the position and who can establish/work towards peace within the church, His Body appear not to be seeking or interested in peace.
Reconciliation? Unity? Well there is no doubt that both sides of the "divide" [namely the Board of Deacons (including the Pastorate) and TTG Group] will say that this is what they want ... anyway, can they say anything otherwise?
But their actions or rather lack of action in making the first move towards reconciliation and unity (and peace) betrays their words. On the contrary it looks like both sides of the "divide" think that if only the other party leaves/gets brought down - only then there can be peace and unity. This surely cannot be the solution. God forbid it that any party is working towards such an objective or conclusion!
I would like to once again call espeically upon the church leadership (Board of Directors, including the Pastorate) to make the first move to engage the TTG Group who I hope will respond to the table without any preconditions or demands. If the Board of Deacons (including the Pastorate) do not think they are able to handle the situation, please invite a respectable 3rd Party to mediate or facilitate these discussions/talks. There is really no need to feel ashame or lacking if indeed this is needed. This could be God's answer to the situation!
All things must be done to maintain the unity of the Body; to be inclusive instead of separation; to engage instead of sitting at different tables.
"Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called the sons of God!" Will the Board of Deacons (including the Pastorate) and the TTG Group obey our Lord?
Did any of u guys saw the Meagre honorarium given to one Samuel Yap in the same page of the accounts?
He got paid RM675.00 for 2 months -Oct & Nov 2002. That means RM337.50per month. (Adeline Koh got Rm250.00 per month)
Looks like SP and PO already underpaying his missions workers since long time ago. How to survive on RM337.50 a month?
Ps Tim say this morning we Malaysian chinese eat 5 meals a day. Woh, if Samuel pay 150.00 for room rental,50.00 for bus fare, 33.75 for tithes, he only got 103.75 for 30 days x 5 meals a day equal to 69 cent per meal. Maybe he eats 1 meal a day and fresh air and sunshine for other meals.
No wonder Ps Tim also preached that 10 sons cannot take care of 1 mother. He must be referring to Calvary missions workers. Samuel can't even feed himself.
Quoted from passages of Dec-Feb2008-2009 Our Daily Bread- rbc ministries
LIVING DECEPTIVELY
"It should not surprise us to hear of deception... The apostle Paul wrote in 2 Tim 3:13, 'Evil men and imposters will grow worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived."
To deceive is to make others believe falsehood as truth and accept wrong as right.
Our defence against deception is to know God's Word, for "all Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness" verse 16.
Correction is to set right what is wrong, and instruction is to make known what is right. God's Word not only makes us aware of wrongs, it also prompts and teaches us to do what is right......"
Calvary Today, please continue with the good work.
I had earlier posted:
Jesus proclaimed in Matt 5:8 - "Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called the sons of God!"
How strange it is then that those who are called followers of Jesus and who are in the position and who can establish/work towards peace within the church, His Body appear not to be seeking or interested in peace.
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I need to clarify that the people I meant in the above statement ("who are in a position and who can establish/work towards peace ...") include both the Board of Deacons (including the Pastorate) AND the TTG Group ...
a note about the microphones.
wireless microphones are not cheap. and i personally know for a fact that the 8 mikes are still in use today, and being a top level brand (SHURE MIKES is the brand) they produce very good sound.
i'm a singer and i really like those mikes. they've been in use since 2002. which translates to an annul cost of rm 3000 for originally priced rm 21000 mikes. and certainly, they are nowhere near the end of their lifespan.
if any of you wish to inspect the microphone sets, i'm sure mr robert ang would be glad to show them to you.
:)
Aiyo you confused again. The issue is not that we don’t believe that the 8 mikes are expensive stuff. I believe it is top notch, best quality, imported with no spare parts in M’sia kinda stuff.
The issue is why on the same page where RM21k spent on mikes, also shows the church give or “sedekah” RM675 for Oct & Nov makan money to poor Samual Yap. I really want to meet this guy to ask him how he managed to pull thru each month. I agree with Pas Tim and SM said, 10 sons cannot take care of 1 mother. Are you confused how he can take care?
Church got money also don’t splash like that. Pay human workers more becoz they got mother & father to feed. Some got wife and children to feed also. Mikes only used by singers like you after that put in a box for keeping only. Human workers go out to preach gospel and touch other people’s life. Anyway if you good singer, no good mike also can use.
I won’t bother inspecting the mikes but I will look for Samuel Yap to see how he is doing. Who is Samuel Yap and where is he now, anyone???
What do you think members will vote for? RM21k to buy 8 mikes or RM21k to give to 8 missions workers?
Is there any truth in this observation of mine? So far our Missions Directors are single men. Maybe they don’t have heavy family responsibility so they don’t realize RM337.50 is not even enough for a kid, what more a adult.
Is there a need for Truth Committee here?
We are talking about extravagance in spending on equipment which do not warrant such an extreme level of spending.
Why spend so much on equipment or things but scrounge on paying our missions workers?
Also why the clear distinction between the SP and family in their wages as compared to other staff workers and missions workers? Why the difference in compensation, perks and benefits as well as manner of appraisal?
Obviously we can see the extravagance and exclusivity seen in lifestyle of PG and family as against all the other Assoiciate pastors and families.
Isn't it time to review the whole compensation scheme/system and ensure that kingdom principles shall apply to all CC pastors and staff/workers alike?
May we lead a simple lifestyle and not crave for worldly comforts and things at the expense of taking care of Kingdom needs!
Pastor Rick Warren's daily devotions talks about this issue clearly. I copy from him.
April 21, 2009
Every Nation: Don't Trade Your Life for Temporary Things
by Rick Warren
"There's far more here than meets the eye. The things we see now are here today, gone tomorrow. But the things we can't see now will last forever" (2 Corinthians 4:18 MSG).
So much of what we waste our energy on will not matter even a year from now, much less for eternity. Don't trade your life for temporary things. Jesus said, "Anyone who lets himself be distracted from the work I plan for him is not fit for the Kingdom of God" (Luke 9:62 LB). Paul warned, "Deal as sparingly as possible with the things the world thrusts on you. This world as you see it is on its way out" (1 Corinthians 7:31 MSG).
What are you allowing to stand in the way of your mission? Whatever it is, let it go. "Let us strip off anything that slows us down or holds us back..." (Hebrews 12:1 LB).
How can we do this? In one of his most misunderstood statements, Jesus said, "I tell you, use worldly wealth to gain friends for yourselves, so that when it is gone, you will be welcomed into eternal dwellings" (Luke 16:9 NIV).
Jesus did not mean for you to "buy" friends with money. What he meant was that you should use the money God gives you to bring people to Christ. They will then be friends for eternity who will welcome you when you get to heaven! It's the best financial investment you'll ever make.
You've probably heard the expression, "You can't take it with you," but the Bible says you can send it on ahead, by investing it in people who are going there! The Bible says, "By doing this they will be storing up real treasure for themselves in heaven—it is the only safe investment for eternity! And they will be living a fruitful Christian life down here as well" (1 Timothy 6:19 LB).
Dear Pastor Missions Director, it is people that is important to God not things.
In response to Truth Committee ??? on April 21, 2009 at 4.18 pm
Samuel Yap is a very tall and thin guy. He is a full time BCM student and a student pastor in Selayang Baru outreach.
I work with sound and spent most of my working years in setting up recording studios and auditorium, calibrating equipment and matching speakers. There are many professional microphones that cost less but perform better. I am talking about 2002 then. In 2009, we have even more choices. Another point to note here is that not many can hear the difference between a set of quality microphones. For professionals, that little difference is sometimes what we call personal preference/taste. It appeared to me that Calvary Church has acquired the SHURE taste. Also, the price quoted is about right (assuming those vocal mic with wide dynamic range + transmitter), that is for SHURE if you don't want to CHANGE from the EXPENSIVE taste. We certainly have a lot of SHUREs stacking there.
So confused, please do not pretend to be confused. You definitely sound good with those microphones. You must thank Mr. Ang for making your voice sound so exceptionally good with the EFFECTS. Again, that comes from the EXPENSIVE mixer we have invested.
I don't drive Mercedes-Benz or BMW or Volvo or ... equivalent. There is nothing wrong to drive one if you could afford. That said, I drive a reliable car God had provided. It is not a matter of choice/taste. I am also a singer.....
I'm a recording engineer by profession. I used to have to review microphones and explain them in "semi-technical" terms to certain parties.
For many years (even now), Shure was a reputable and popular brand because of its affordability yet ability to reproduce audio at a professional quality level. Ask any studio/live engineer, they'll tell you so.
One of the points that I always bring up about choosing a brand is its local availability for service and support. Shure has a distributor in Singapore and a handful of dealers in KL.
This is what most (down-to-earth) engineers heavily consider in choosing a brand. Local availability and support. Many engineers, let alone audience, don't hear the audible differences between microphones (as pointed out be "Sound Engineer").
Buying a good mike and then finding out that the nearest office is in USA or Europe when it's in need of spare parts will be a killer on your investment.
21k for for 8 wireless sets and 1 pair of headphones is a pretty decent price IMHO whether for Shure or perhaps even Behringer. There are many more costly brand names out there. It depends on what you want. I always had to explain to bosses that 8 mikes mean you get 8 microphones, 8 receivers, 8 power supplies, 8 mike cases. Some dealers in some cases will throw in the mounting racks and travel boxes as well which usually will already come up to a couple of hundred ringgit on it's own.
For Calvary Church's size (have heard of it before), I would think that audio reinforcement would have to be a big chunk of investment looking at the type of events you organised. I won't be surprised.
Mike
Well as confused and Sound engineer have so rightly pointed out, I don't think that there is anything wrong with the quality and prices of the mics. To me 21k for this has to be seen as an investment. These equipment help to project the voices used for ministry.
Unfortunately I'm sure what these fellas are whining about is why the money is used from Missions and not church a/c.... right?
So the discussion/questions to ask would be, where is this set of 8 mics and 1 headphones? Who uses them? For what purposes? Is it used in the church sanctuary or some other location?
Without knowing this information before-hand it would be pointless and silly to draw any conclusions from what is presented here. All is shown is a page showing a list of spending. The purposes for spending is not spelt out in detail. Please check the context in which we are talking about here before drawing conclusions.
Actually most member are not bothered if the mikes cost RM21k or RM21.00. It is the fair distribution of budget to all departments of the church. In the two pages of the missions acs, we see Communication got purchase items and expensive ones. What about other departments.
I used to help in the evangelistic meetings in stadium negara. It was so difficult to claim back a small sum of money I paid to buy certain items for the presentation use. I got so fed up I just told the pastor in charge, "Forget it, I will deduct it from my church offerings".
Hey people, so much blog space on mikes. What about our missions workers? Don't anyone care if they can take care of their mother or not?
Thanks for the info about Samuel Yap. I did abit of asking around today and guess what. Our missions director is also the chairman of the BCM board. I hope he will have some sympathy and concern for our BCM students, including Samuel Yap.
I beg to differ from Check your context.
We shouldn't have spent that much for the wireless mics in the first place. Because we have many alternatives then. To me, whoever that had made the decision is not seriously carried out the task. Personally, I have made sacrifice to meet faith promise pledges. If I knew that, I would rather keep it for my future automobile upgrade instead of leaving the decision to someone who is less responsible.
In the same vein, why don't we buy good and expensive cars for our APs, and Church staff? Why don't we pay more for our outreaches pastors? Why don't we ......
That's the moral...
Oh just incase Samuel Yap gets in trouble with church leadership, I have decided not to look out for him. I hope our mission director pastor also the bcm board chairman will leave Samuel Yap alone and not make life difficult for him. It is not his fault that he is the topic of our talk now. From the comments given by others about the character of the other blog owners, i know i have put Samuel in a dangerous position.
Lord put your hedge on my brother Samuel and protect him from evil. In Jesus name, Amen.
Yes, just one basic biblical truth to cover all aspects of church financial management "STEWARDSHIP".
Many messages (applicable to personal, family and business) have come from the pulpit time and time again. If it is not pleasing to the Lord, don't do it. The leadership must practise what it is preaching all the past forty years. Be consistent as church financial manegement falls under the same biblical theme.
As mentioned above many times over, do we need to splash the funds whether from tithes, faith mission OR BUILDING project on luxury brands. Kingdom principle is simple to observe follow and applied. Be obedient hence be careful how the funds collected are being used. Is it pleasing to our Lord Jesus? Consider these aspects:-
(1) for the airfares at some leadership's whim and fancy for a selected and privileged few recently termed as "staff benefits"
(2) for looking vain okay call it "fitness" to walk/climb Mount Kinabalu.
(3) for big "angpows" to visiting pastors as love offerings
(4) for hiring top-notch legal and accounting professionals to give opinion/reports at a unnecessary EGM ended with a promise of a "WAY FORWARD" Okay, someone will soon remind me about it, legal expert's fees given "gratis" in that instance but the forensic investigation is positively not.
(5)CERTAINLY not for business class travelling to go conferencing and seminars and bringing the son along to do some audio/visual programming (throwing away about RM500,000 in total over the past few years)
(6) TO PAY bank interest if you draw on the bank overdraft when clearly CC cannot afford a super-size budget CCC.Remember the initial buget was about RM50 million (what's the latest revision ask PG, BODs or perhaps JG). Remember Calvaryland is now a hugh complex to cater for half-dozen residents. The estimated income wisely invested on the total expenditure on Calvaryland could pay for the upkeep of the six persons inside suitable nursing homes in the Klang Valley because you have to take into the computation the all and sundry expenses like wages for the security and helpers. Interested members have asked for the accounts to be presented and still waiting
(7)Morally not correct to pay some privlieged pastors larger stipends just to ensure they stay beholden to PG and his family.
I trust we do not get distracted and overlook the bigger picture. The microphone system is just the tip of the iceberg. The vital point is this - can the one making the final decision ask a basic question "Is this action/decision pleasing to the Lord?" If yes, he/she has passed the test of good stewardship in a church.
Before any misappropriately guided CK/CU blogger react irrationally, please check the Bible, brothers and sisters the Bible tells us clearly to rebuke and help our brothers and sisters wake up if you wish Calvary Church to be the true fountainhead church. The leadership must lead by unblemished character and pleasing examples.
Bro blog adminstrator, post this message on the other response too, thank you and have a blessed day
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