Monday, April 6, 2009

EGM Update

Praise the Lord for He is the Almighty God.

Praise God in His sanctuary;
Praise Him in His mighty heavens.
Praise Him for His acts of power; …
Let everything that has breath praise the Lord. (Psalm 150: 1-3 & 6)

The EGM last Saturday 4 April 2009 was an event that will be long remembered by Calvarites. The fiery marathon 5-hour EGM was a clear message to the leadership that members are dissatisfied and unhappy and many have lost respect and trust for Senior Pastor (SP) Prince and the Board of Deacons (BOD).

The twisting and turning of SP of his own words, the half-truths he told and the rudeness he displayed left many members including staunch SP ‘supporters’ (for want of better word, no divisive meaning intended) gaping in sheer astonishment and shaking their heads in disbelief. Although he was obviously agitated by the many members vying to speak, his rudeness in instructing them to sit, without the basic courtesy of saying ‘Please’ riled many.

What was apparent from the EGM was that members are becoming more vocal in voicing their opinions, have better understanding of the issues being discussed and taking ownership of matters affecting the church. This is a good sign and bodes well for the future of the church. However, for healing of the church to take place, this will require the corresponding cooperation, acceptance and openness of SP and the BOD to feedback and suggestions from members. With the SP-centric mentality, non-transparency and questionable integrity of SP and the current BOD, this appears to be wishful thinking at this time.

Adoption of House Rules and Agenda

The meeting took more than a hour just to approve the house rules and agenda. Much of the delay was due to the lively debate and arguments concerning the Proposed Resolutions of Bro Teng and Bro Robert Ng to annul the termination of Dr Lum’s membership and allow Dr Lum to join the meeting.

The said resolutions were submitted to the BOD prior to the meeting but were rejected. Bro Teng and Bro Robert attempted to get the Chairman (SP) to have the resolutions included in the agenda but were unsuccessful despite overwhelming support from the members present.

Several attempts and appeals by various members including Bro Sam Ho, Bro Tuck Yun, and Bro Edwin to seek SP’s consent to allow Dr Lum to join the meeting so that he can answer the charges against him, failed.

An almost heated debate ensued when SP insinuated that Bro Teng and Bro Robert had left their meeting with SP and the BOD a few days earlier, happy with the explanation by the BOD on why their proposed resolutions on Dr Lum’s position cannot be tabled at this EGM. Bro Teng rose to say that just because he has a smiley face does not mean he was happy with the BOD’s explanation. Bro Robert countered that he had left that meeting with a clear message to SP and the BOD that both of them do not accept their explanation.

One of the house rules which did not go well with the members was that the associate members could only speak or ask questions if there are no other voting members waiting to speak. To justify this rule, SP informed the meeting that this is in accordance with the Constitution. This is actually an outright lie as the Church Constitution does not have any provision concerning this.

There were also some arguments on the use of Robert’s Rules of Order in the conduct and proceedings of the EGM. In the past AGMs and EGMs, SP had always used the Robert’s Rules to limit members’ questions but when a few members quoted their rights under the Rules, SP conveniently state that he is not adopting Robert’s Rules for this meeting. This statement caused a stir because at the outset, SP had set some of the house rules based on Robert’s Rules. Therefore, Robert’s Rules were used when advantageous to SP and ignored when not so. This is the typical SP’s Rules.

Debate on the 5 Proposed Resolutions

The meeting then moved on to the 5 resolutions proposed by the BOD. Out of the 5 resolutions, the concerned members had come with proposed amendments for 4 of the resolutions, briefly as follows:

Proposed Resolution 1
Bro Hong Meng proposed an amendment that the annual accounts of the church should include accounts of the Missions Department, auxiliary ministries, extended ministries and all ministries financed and managed by the church or personnel from the church. He also proposed that audited accounts be made available at the church office for the perusal of associate members as well. Currently, only voting members can view the accounts.

Proposed Resolution 2
Sis Liza proposed a few amendments which sought to include a definition of “External Auditor”, that the External Auditor shall not hold office for more than 5 years, that the church accounts include accounts of the Missions Department, auxiliary ministries, extended ministries and all ministries financed and managed by the church or personnel from the church and that the External Auditor or another accounting firm may be required by BOD or members at a General Meeting to undertake any investigative or forensic audit.

Proposed Resolution 3
Bro KC proposed an amendment that SP and his nominee and all pastors be excluded as cheque signatories. He emphasized that the most important aspect of a church is the spiritual aspect and therefore, all pastors should devote 100% of their time in this area and leave the operations and management to the BOD and church employees.

Proposed Resolution 4
This resolution sought to remove a clause in the constitution which is no longer applicable and it was unanimously approved by the members.

Proposed Resolution 5
Bro Joseph proposed an amendment to exclude SP from the Nominating Committee and that the appointed committee members elect a chairman from among themselves. He also suggested that none of the committee members shall be a spouse, parent or child of an existing deacon.

The full details of the proposed amendments and the rationale are set out in the previous article by Bro Hong Meng. All the above Proposed Resolutions No. 1,2,3 and 5 in their present form were rejected by the members.

Immediately, after the rejection of 4 out of 5 Proposed Resolutions, one member stood up to propose a vote of no confidence in the BOD but SP quickly threw it out.

Church Issues – Findings of the Special Audit

The next agenda was on Church Issues and the church auditors were called to present their findings on a special audit conducted on 9 issues. The special audit requested by members include some of the issues raised by Dr Lum.

The findings are as follows (with comments by CT in italics):-

1. Dr Guynes was indeed given a love offering of US$10,000 for coming and chairing the previous EGM. The money was paid from tithes. Approval was only officially ratified by the BOD one month after the event. The meeting was informed that the day before the EGM, SP and 5 deacons in the working committee discussed and agreed verbally to give the love offering to Dr Guynes.

During question time, SP clarified that the US$10,000 was given to Dr Guynes as a missionary offering but this is contradictory to the findings which revealed that the offering was paid out from the church tithes.

After much persistent questioning by Dr Lalitha Lum, it was finally established that Dr Lum was not invited for the abovementioned working meeting and therefore, he was unaware of the verbal decision of SP and the 5 deacons to give the love offering to Dr Guynes.

2. One return airfare for SP’s grandchildren was paid from Church Missions Funds. This payment was not part of the terms of employment of SP but a goal to encourage fulltime staff by offering one-time sponsorship to their children. The members were told that other staff have enjoyed this benefit as well. The meeting was informed that this benefit was not documented and not made known to all the church staff.

Bro Winslow stood up after the presentation to comment that while he was working as an employee of the church, serving under Calvaryland, he was never informed of such a benefit. In simple language, the benefit was known only to SP.

It was confirmed that the airfare for the deacon’s son was paid but there was no mention if this payment was approved by anyone and if approved, the basis for this payment since the deacon is not a fulltime staff. This issue still begs to be addressed.
Perhaps Patrick Wong, being the deacon in question, can issue a statement on this.

3. It was confirmed that SP’s children’s education covering books, tuition fees and airfare was partially sponsored by the church. Similarly, this payment was not part of the terms of employment of SP. The meeting was told that other staff have enjoyed this benefit as well. The meeting was informed that this benefit was not documented and not made known to all the church staff. Again, it was a benefit known only to SP.

4. On the rumor that S$60,000 was collected by a Singapore church and given for SP’s grandson’s medical treatment, the finding was that the rumor is not true. Only the RM40,000 was paid from our church for his grandson’s operation.

5. It was confirmed that SP’s gym membership fees was paid by the church in 2005 and this payment was deemed to be in lieu of a stipend increase for SP in year 1994.

According to Dr Lum, when SP claimed reimbursement for this gym fees in 2005 and said it was a benefit promised to him in 1994, it got the whole BOD stumped. Who would not be, considering that it was so long ago and no deacon had any copy of any board minutes to verify. With no one else keeping the board minutes except SP, who is to say that the minutes have not been tampered with, especially when the auditors have confirmed that in the earlier years, the Secretary did not initial all the pages of board minutes.

6. The meeting was informed that the church has a existing self-declaration policy for staff but there were no mention of any declaration of love offerings received by SP.

7. The meeting was informed that Pastor Adeline Koh was paid an honorarium by the Church as she was a BCM student and not a church staff.

The amount of honorarium paid to her was not mentioned and one can only assume that the figure of RM250 per month is correct since the figure was not denied. The fact that she was not a fulltime staff does not absolve the church of the responsibility to look after the welfare of their Outreach Pastor. The BOD and SP must realize that outreach pastors and missions workers are also human beings with the same needs and should be adequately compensated. They must realize that how they treat the least of their workers is how they are treating Jesus.

8. The findings confirmed that the offering collected for Rev Phil Stevenson was not paid to him but was instead used to offset the airfare expenses of Rev Phil to come to KL.

As many members know, our church often pays for the airfare of our guest speakers. In addition, our church also gives love offerings to them, regardless pf whether a love offering was collected from the congregation. In the previous article, you would have seen that besides paying for Rev Robert Lim’s airfare, the church gave him S$10,000 as a love gift. When his son came to preach at one of our youth camps, similar treatment was accorded. Same goes for Dr Guynes and other guest speakers. Therefore, it is baffling that the church leadership chose to discriminate against Rev Phil who comes from a ‘poor’ church. He sacrifice his time, left his family and his church behind in Australia, came to bless our youth and went home with just a handshake and a “thank you”. Of course, he did not come for money. Of course, God will bless him. But why do we want embark on a RM250 million building to proclaim the love of God and then deny a simple Godly pastor of RM1,858 which was given sacrificially by the youth to bless him. May God have mercy on us!

9. The findings confirmed that SP does the annual appraisal of all departmental heads which includes his family members (presumably this includes his wife, children,, son-in-law and daughter-in-law) while the salary increments were decided by SP together with the HR deacon.

Out of the above 9 items, 8 items were among the 23 issues raised by Dr Lum. The above findings of the Special Audit actually confirm that all the above 8 issues raised by Dr Lum are true.

After the presentation, Bro Hong Meng and another member requested for a copy of the findings but their requests were denied by the Church Treasurer who chaired this item on the agenda.

Several pleas were made again at this juncture by Bro Edwin and others to persuade SP to allow Dr Lum to come in to respond to the findings of the special audit, and explain the 23 issues raised by him and to clear the air on discrepancies in differing versions of what had transpired. The pleas fell on deaf ears.

Alternate Blogs

During the question time, Bro KC highlighted that the audit findings may not be totally acceptable due to the fact that one of the auditors’ impartiality and independence is in question.

To arrive at this conclusion, he informed the meeting that besides Calvary Today, there are 2 other inter-linked blogs, Calvary Kini (CK) and Calvary Unity (CU) discussing church issues. CU blog (closely linked to CK) publishes condemnation and curses against members who support truth and transparency. Senior Associate Pastor Petrina in a recent message said that condemnation and curses come from the devil. Therefore CK and CU are devilish blogs.

CK blog home page features an image of our church sanctuary while the CU blog home page has a link to our church website. The photo of the church sanctuary belongs to the Communication Dept. These give the impression that both blogs are endorsed by the church or linked to the BOD or pastors. Their recent publication of SP’s California Fitness gym membership details (which CU claims to have obtained from the gym) also proves that it is linked to the BOD or pastors. This is because when Bro KC wrote in to the gym to inquire on SP’s membership, they replied that they are not allowed to divulge their member’s details to third parties.

To the shock of the members, Bro KC revealed that both CK and CU were promoted by one of the deacons, one of the church auditors and one of the pastors’ brother in Australia. Bro KC called for the deacon and auditor to be sacked like Dr Lum as they have similarly caused confusion, strife and division in the church with their open support.

Bro Han stood up to clarify that he had asked his life group members to read CK and CU blogs in his personal capacity and not as a deacon. Bro Han should realize that as long as he sits in the BOD, he will be regarded as deacon in the eyes of the members, whether in or out of the church. He forgot that as a Christian, he should not have dual personalities. Whether as a deacon or an ordinary member, one’s Christian values should not change.

The meeting ended shortly after this with a time of prayer.

CT’S NOTE: This article was written based on the writer’s personal witness account at the EGM and corroborated with the audio recording of the EGM. Some of the comments were paraphrased to give a clearer understanding of what was said.

194 comments:

Anonymous said...

Bro Han said that he sent asked his life group members to read CK and CU blogs in his capacity as a LifeGroup leader because LG members were already asking asking him about church issues.

Why are you sensationalizing the issue to say that "he should not have dual personalities......one's Christian values should not change?"

double standards said...

good summary. yes, this was the essence of the EGM and I fully agree that the 2 alternate blogs are of the devil.

EGM Report said...

Thank you Calvary Today for the report on the EGM event.

Many could not come for the EGM due to personal reasons but this report is good for all Calvarites to know.

It was good to see many concerned Calvarites speaking up for Truth and Transparency.

So remember to come up the coming AGM and resolve it once and for all. This cannot go on till the 2010 AGM.

Sentinel said...

Thank you for this write-up. It's an eye-opener. TTG's courage in confronting the lies of PG, PG2, Associate pastors, & the BOD, is bearing fruit!

I call for a vote of no-confidence in PG, PG2, APs, & the BOD of Calvary Church! They have betrayed the trust, the confidence and the faithfulness of the members of Calvary Church and have brought shame & disgrace to the name of our Lord & Saviour.

balanced view said...

Anonymous 9.19pm, if that was all Bro Han was doing, why didn't he also send the website address of Calvary Today to his lifegroup members? Why just send the 2 alternate blogs address? I don't agree with you that this is sensationalized. This is a fact. If he wants people to know what's happening, he should forward them all 3 websites to get a more balanced view. By asking his lifegroup members to only read the other 2 blogs, this means he wants them to get a bias view of the whole matter. I am so disappointed at Bro Han, especially at his weak excuse on why he did what he did.

Time will reveal the Truth said...

PG, PG 2, Associate pastors and BOD of Calvary Church your true characters and colours have been uncovered at the EGM. You have lost all the respect and trust from members and worshippers of Calvary Church.

The honourable thing to do now is to own up to the glaring fumbles and wrongdoings and step down graciously. Set the right example and repent before God and man. Otherwise you are making a mockery of yourselves and the church.

The longer the matter is stretched the more embarrassing it is going to be. It is time to be humble, own up and don't drag your feet further! How long can the leadership hide and pretend to members? One day you have to stop acting and be real...

Many true stories in the political scene such Taiwan's Ah Bian and family display what is the final outcome in time to come.

The truth will be revealed in due time.

CALVARY TODAY said...

We are re-posting some Comments made earlier by different individuals regarding the EGM held last Saturday, 4 April to this post for relevance and continuity purpose.

God is Good.

the truth is out there said...

Oh oh! Dr. Lum was literally locked out of the EGM. Yes, the prerogative whether to admit observers rests with the Church. Do not forget that at the previous EGM chaired by Dr. Guynes, observers were invited to attend the EGM.

The primary objective of this move is to prevent Dr. Lum from attending the EGM. No doubt his distractors will have a 1001 reasons saying otherwise, it will not change my perception.

Further, having PG as the chairman of the EGM is ethically improper. The EGM is for amendments to the Church's Constitution in financial matters and PG has a great vested interest in it. So how can the Chairman remain neutral. There were a number of instances where he made a reply/statement and a short while later he made another which totally contradicts what he had said. One can clearly see that he has the habit of making statements to suit him or to suit the circumstances according to his needs. By the way, do the Church has an Executive Administrator? His functions would primarily be administration and not spiritual in a major way. Still not the best choice but can be considered.

April 4, 2009 9:28 PM

double standards said...

So, the following has been confirmed:
1. SP's granddaughter's airfare has been paid for by the church. My questions are:
-If she can afford to come back several times (3-4 times) a year, why couldn't her parents pay for her initial airfare to US themselves??
- If this 'staff benefit' was meant for ALL staff, how come most of the staff do not seem to be aware of it and only the senior pastor's family benefited from it???

2. Jim and Pam's education WAS paid for by the church.

3. US10k was given to Dr Guynes without a proper BOD meeting since Dr Lum was not even informed of the meeting.

4. Ps Phil was not given the offering the youths generously gave to him because our church is too kiamsap to even offer to pay for his airfare, so the youths' offering had to be used to pay for that, which left Ps Phil with zilch.

5. SP's grandson's operation was paid for by the church. Don't these ppl even have any insurance coverage?

6. SP's California Fitness expenses WERE paid for by the church.

This shows me that there is indeed an abuse of power and authority within our church leadership. How come SP and family seems to have so much monetary benefits (besides their high 5 figure salaries) as compared to other staff??

April 4, 2009 10:44 PM

tired said...

what an EGM....from a stubborn chairman who was rather disrespectful to church members to a member aka gangster who had to publicly announce that he wants to go home (pls go home la, no one really cares if you do), this has been the longest 5 hour spent in church!

April 4, 2009 9:31 PM

Something wrong here said...

In any case, I do feel Ps. Phil was not fairly treated. If the same thing happened to all our other speakers, then I've got nothing to say. BUT we can all see from the posted accounts that Ps. Robert's airfare was absorbed by Missions when he flew in to speak...PLUS, he received a love offering. Did they take his offering to offset his airfare?? BIG NO!! Have they taken the offerings of every guest speaker we have invited all these years and used it to offset their airfare? Is this the norm? I think the answer would be no. But then why did it happen to Ps. Phil? This I can't understand. Yes, it can be argued that since this was a Youth Dept event and not a Church/Missions event, the church has no obligation to provide...blah blah blah. But aren't the young people also part of the church? Can't this be seen as an investment? I mean, we can cough up amounts of up to USD 10K for Ps. Guynes and SGD 10K for Ps. Robert but we CAN'T EVEN take care of the airfare (probably only a mere RM 4K) of the pastor from a much smaller church which probably cannot afford to pay for their pastor's travels unlike ours. I think there is seriously something wrong here!

April 5, 2009 2:08 AM

Ex-Calvarite said...

At the next EGM, I suggest EX-Calvarites who support the cause for truth, transparency & accountability accompany Dr. Lum to sit on the bench outisde the auditorium.

At the same time, since we are going to be there (for 5 hours?), we might as well have a prayer meeting to pray for truth to prevail & bad shepherds to be rooted out of the church!

I can predict this - with a 5-hours prayer meeting, REVIVAL is going to break out and winds of change will blow into the church AND topple the proud & the arrogant, the liars & the covetuous!!

Is this a good idea or what?!!!

And, please wear white...!!!

April 5, 2009 12:20 AM

Deep Cry said...

Huh.. What a EGM yesterday..

1. the Chairman can twist his words so openly and confidently within seconds. Everyone heard it, saw it themselves yesterday. but most importantly God saw and heard it too.. hey, if you dont believe, go request for the EGM recording and view it yourself.

2. Another dishonest disclosure by Deacon H.. When the qustion asked regarding the other 2 blogs, whether endorsed by the church, his answers said: I sent the email out regarding the blog not as a deacon but as a 'what' to my cell group members.. hello, Deacon H.., What are you talking and twisting? You mean to say, when you are at work or at your sport club or dining with friends, you tell your friends, now I am not a christian but when I am in the church I am a christian?? My opinion is when you are a leader in the church, you are watched by everyone, your action speaks louder OK? How can you sent the email and ask your cell group to read cu and ck but not ct in your black and white email...

3. Another 'untruthful disclosure' by one of the committees in the Independet Inquiry Panel.. Peggy.. how can you said Dr Lum did not turn up? What had happened to your Chairman? why he was not in the EGM yesterday to 'justify' himself? You mean to say he did not tell you that, witnesses not allowed entry, Dr Lum was there??
Who is twisting now? there were so many witnesess and associates ps there and also the church security personnel. So, readers, can you imagine, this disease is spreading--i diagnose it as the 'twist parasite'. So, what kind of antibiotic should we prescribed to treat such serious 'parasite'?

4. So, it looks so bad, so bad and so bad on the Chairman who is SP and the entire BOD and those who refused to allow Dr Lum to enter the sanctuary and to explain himself, whereas, we as a church and christian kept discussing about his wrong while he was 'dumped' outside the building.

5. So, finally, all 'money' issues--the '9' points brought up are very bias, whereas there are 23 points of 'concerns' brought up by Dr Lum in his resignation letter to SP. He, in my opinion is merely expressing his concerns to SP but, however, he was charged and the verdict on him is..'unscriptural conduct', depart from the tenets of faith n etc... worse still the BOD and SP called this--serious allegation. Just like SP quoted to Bro. Siew Chuan that he interpreted the bible himself yesterday while while he quoted book of Acts, can I said that SP himself created the word-- 'serious allegation' in order to sack Dr Lum because 'he knows too much'

April 5, 2009 9:11 AM

Snowy White said...

Hi Brethrens & Sisters in Christ,

SP has asked all of you to forgive him as most of you walked out
on his closing prayer.

If Christ has forgiven you of all your iniquities, let's have a parley & forgive SP too.

Let's start afresh on this Easter & meet him with your proposals as what he has announced.

Please dont divide the church & show your compassionate & Christ- like heart.

Let God Arise , His enemies be scattered.....

April 5, 2009 9:03 AM

for transparency said...

Simple and effective but vindictive!

No admission to observers mean no Dr. Lum in the sanctuary.

The absolute power is in the hands of the BOD. Follow the Constitution but who amended the Constitution in the eighties and who is the chairman of the BOD. When it is convenient "follow the Constitution" but when caught in a spot "we are not of the world".

April 5, 2009 1:56 PM

ABC said...

Many of us prayed for the Lord to be the SHEPHERD of our EGM because we are very doubtful about PG as our earthly shepherd.

Praise and thank our Lord , He has answered our prayers by

1. Giving wisdom to voting members to throw 4 out of 5 proposed changes to Church constitution because they will not protect the interest of our members.

2. The Lord enabled many of us to see and witnessed for ourselves the inconsistency of PG, who twisted words to cover his own shaky grounds. He was also very rude to members of the church!!!
No CEO will ever ever behave the way he did.

3. Members like me attended the meeting armed with proposed 5 amendments to church constitution (sheet handed to us by the church); we were not told of agenda 6.

4. However, when agenda 6 was introduced, we perceived the audit team WERE CLEARLY not independent but partial. All their replies cover the track of PG. They referred to Minutes - how would anybody know whether they have been tempered or not, BOD never get to keep their copies. Which Minutes did Chow and Tham sight?

We may not have all the answers but our Lord has. Let us continue to pray that the LORD HIMSELF REIGN and cleanse all unrighteousness from our church.

April 5, 2009 11:28 AM

I am not fooled said...

PG's asking for forgiveness might be sincere. But I personally don't buy it. He's tried this before in previous general meetings, asking for forgiveness, but after that he forgets and continue hurting people. I felt so sorry for Dr Lum and his wife. Can't believe that PG is so cruel and cold hearted to let Dr Lum sit outside the church for 5 hours! Talk about forgiveness!

If he is truly, sincerely sorry, then make it a point to prioritise that. Make it an agenda, an EGM or something and this time don't use God (through prayer looking holy and all). Just look at the members and say "I AM SORRY" and then don't stop there. Be responsible about the mess he's caused ie retire.

April 5, 2009 5:35 PM

Fresh Start? said...

Had to leave a bit earlier before the end of the EGM. Can someone confirm what Snowy White said: "SP had asked all of you to forgive him as most of you walked out on his closing prayer"?

First reaction: Is there something to prove by a walk-out? Sorry, but whatever the sentiments and disagreement, walking out on the closing prayer is surely not reflective of the desire for healing and unity.

Second reation: If indeed SP asked for forgiveness, he has made the first move towards reconciliation and healing ... please in the spirit of unity and for the sake of the Body, start the healing process.

Let both parties start afresh. For this I suggest the following starting points:

1. Board of Deacons to initiate to meet as quickly as possible with HM and KC so that final wordings of the 4 proposed resolutions can be discussed and agreed upon. I don't believe it should be one set or the other but rather if all are sincere to move forward, a middle-part can be formulated. These can then be tabled (at the next EGM) for formal adoption. Surely this can be done expeditiously.

2. As to the other immediate item which will take a little longer to "resolve", the Board of Deacons should invite Dr Lum and if necessary a couple of his close brothers/sisters in Christ and discuss what can be done to resolve the existing unhappiness (on both sides). Not to be presumptuous, I would suggest that as a step moving forward, it would be good on the Board's part to consider retracting Dr Lum's membership termination, at least during the period of discusison/review (which can take a period of time), the objective of which is for some agreement, again there must be the willingness to "give & take" on some issues (on both sides) to be arrive on what can be done going forward. The emphasis is for the sake of the unity of the Body.

There are of course many other issues but if we could do the above two for a start, then I think that we can begin to move forward.

I hope to write to the Board to suggest the above items after this posting and I sincerely hope the Board of Deacons can initiate the above or at least start engaging with the TTG Group.

April 5, 2009 4:47 PM

doesn't seem sorry woh said...

hmm..I was one of the ppl who had to leave after the agenda of the meeting was done with, so didn't manage to catch that 'PG asking for forgiveness' bit. Just wondering, if he was indeed sincere in asking for forgiveness, why wait more than 1 year to do it...and why didn't he start off the egm by asking for forgiveness? the way he conducted the egm, doesn't seem like he was remorseful or repented one bit, especially when he keeps ordering ppl to sit down without even a 'please sit down' but rather, he did it so rudely like the members were children or something, and the way he keeps butting in on members' questions and saying the 'that's just YOUR opinion' with such pride..I seriously cannot see for one second that he is sorry for what he did.
Action speaks louder than words, and from his actions, he doesn't seem sorry. It is like telling our kids, "Don't say sorry if you don't mean it." Likewise, PG needs to be told that.

April 5, 2009 6:32 PM

Repent, no way! said...

Dear Fresh Start?

You must have heard wrongly about the walking out bit. Actually, many people were waiting to walk out as soon as EGM agenda was done. Some has prior appointments and were already late since the EGM lasted 5 hours. Many others rush to the toilet as their bladders were probably near bursting point (like mine). That's why the toilets were packed when I went during the prayers.

Overall about 20% walk out, a little more than like Sunday services when people walk out during altar call.

But while I was walking. I heard PG saying the forgivess bit.

PG DIDN'T repent or anything like that. He just say that IF he has done wrong, please forgive him.

It's still an "IF" meaning he still don't think he has done any wrong.

That's what turns people off. After all that has happened, he still think he's in the right.

What to do. Pride-lah

April 5, 2009 5:40 PM

Sentinel said...

Dear Deep Cry,

Just as water flows from 'top to bottom,' when the SP of a church has lost his fear of God & had resorted to lying, & twisting of the truth, so will the rest of his leaders.

Therefore it was not surprising that deaconness BF was trying to be evasive when she 'went round & round,' & also when Peggy Low of the supposedly-independent panel of inquiry made feeble excuses for their kangaroo-court judgment of Dr. Lum. How can this 'panel of inquiry' be independent when they are all yes-men & yes-woman?!!

Reminds me of the Pharisees & the false witnesses they set up in their Sanhedrin kangaroo-court to accuse Jesus ....very timely as we remember our Lord's Passion.

The wicked, the religious, the self-righteous & the hypocrites will resort to telling lies to justify their actions & to cover up their real motives & hidden agenda.

April 5, 2009 7:38 PM

pshn said...

ASKING FOR FORGIVENESS??

Lets not do things in haste.
PG1 has served for 40 years.
This is a full term of service
rarely achieved by any in a life-time.

Matching the first three kings of Israel
Saul, David, Solomon.
They each served 40 years.

PG is already 64 years,
What he need most is a deserved rest
To write his memoirs perhaps
and to record his great exploits for the Lord
Let this be his legacy to the AOG

Full retirement is the best option.
The Leadership of Calvary will be most happy
To contemplate his post-retirement contribution
later on.

April 5, 2009 7:36 PM

Discernment Needed said...

I support Fesh Start? that engagement is the best way going forward.

However to put a condition that SP should retire as part of the engagement process is not proper I think as this betrays the desire that one is trying to find an amicable resolution to what is facing the church at this juncture.

If the Board starts the process of engagement, please respond with an open mind and heart and don't say that "we will sit together and talk only if SP resigns".

I am quite sure that many church members want engagement but not many insist that SP resignation must take place. If however the process of engagement yields the conclusion that it would be the best alternative that SP steps down, with an appropriate time-frame, then so be it. But SP's resignation should NOT as a condition of engagement.

April 5, 2009 8:32 PM

Fight To The Finish said...

Dear PSHN,

To give PG & PG2 the option of full retirement is an act of grace and mercy, which they don't really deserve.

Just dismiss them or SACK them, the same way they cruelly dismissed Dr. LUM!

April 5, 2009 8:04 PM

I HAVE SPOKEN said...

At yesterday's EGM, there was NOT once BUT many occasions when PG was caught & he denied saying what he had just said & which was heard by all in the hall.

Either PG is losing it or PG is getting senile due to his age. He ought to go into retirement now & perhaps do some writing so that the royalties from his books will take care of his retirement years. If he delays anymore, who knows he might not even be able to write about his experience due to failing memory.

The fact that PG & BOD lost the vote EVEN on a simple majority shows that they are NOT wanted anymore due to the Confidence Crisis created by them. If they have any self-respect, PG & BOD ought to STEP DOWN & let God appoint a new team to shepherd His House.

Surely God has spoken through his people at yesterday's EGM to PG & BOD that "Enough is Enough" but I wonder whether they will be able to hear God or are they so thick skin or thick headed?

April 5, 2009 9:31 PM

no justice said...

As I was walking to Church last Saturday, I wondered whether BOD/PG1 will keep Dr. Lum out by barring observers.

True enough. There was Dr. Lum sitting outside the sanctuary. This is a vindictive move which was premeditated. How else can you keep him out? Barring observers, of course.

He has been a member for so many years and a Deacon for 11 years and now charged for misconduct, removed from membership without natural justice being accorded and being so cruel without even letting him witness what was going on. Why is the BOD/PG1 so afraid to let him in? Are they afraid Dr. Lum will bring the house down as he enters? Are they afraid of what he knows? More disclosures? They (BOD/PG1) will be shown to be unjust? Maybe next, the BOD/PG1 will be seeing ghosts.

On the coming AGM, the Church should use ballot papers to show that there is transparency and enable all members to vote without fear. Some members at the EGM were hesitant because these members were fearful of "spies" in their midst.

April 5, 2009 8:56 PM

BOD is to be blamed said...

actually, i think it is the fault of the BOD that has made PG become how he is today...BOD should be all sacked. The way BT tried to twist and turn a simple answer is enough to make me lose confidence in her. The way that HJK tried to explain his way out of why he is promoting the 2 alternate blogs are enough to make me lose confidence in him.

April 5, 2009 11:05 PM

Plain Truth said...

Fellow Calvarites,

SP used the word 'allegation' and the two auditors used the word too in their presentations.

You saw for your self that these 9 were not allegations but real issues disclosed by DR Lum. If issues are true and real, Dr Lum was terminated wrongly. This means BOD also walked disorderly and should terminate themselves. If BOD doesn't, they walked disorderly twice.

The only choice left for BOD is either to rescind Dr Lum's termination of membership or terminate themselves. BOD means SP and the remaining 6 deacons.

April 5, 2009 9:59 PM

State of No Love said...

Hi Calvarites,

I notice a few brothers were impatient with the EGM..one said 'for more than 1 hour we were still at 'house rules'', another said 'get to agenda' and another said 'too long and wanted to go home'.

But, they and many others (including SP and BOD of six) had conveniently forgotten our poor friend and unjustly sacked member, Dr Lum, who waited more than 5 hours outside the church hoping to go in as an observer.

But that hope did not arrive. SP and BOD wanted him outside. Why?.. for the fear that he will spill more truth.

This a church where SP and BOD can ill treat a member of more than 40 years and deacon of 11 years! Yet these are leaders who know love, preach love, teach love but HAVE NO LOVE.

April 6, 2009 12:02 AM

BOD is to be blamed said...

As for the Constitution review committee, I'm really not sure why they even bother to have 4 or 5 people in this committee when they can't even seem to do a decent job in reviewing the constitution. Sure they're qualified to amend the constitutions ar? I don't want to attend one egm after another having to vote for or against the weak amendments they make to the constitution.

BOD, if you're reading this, pls don't waste anymore of our time and the committee's feeble efforts to be independent. why not get 1 or 2 of the TTG members to be in the committee? That would save precious time and speed up the process for your Moving Forward stance.

April 5, 2009 11:35 PM

Money Matters said...

Facts of the matter

The fact is:

1. Money had been taken by PG1.
2. Money had been taken for use for his 2 children
3. Money had been taken for use of his grandchildren
4. Money had been taken for personal use: the Jacky Chan Fitness Club
5. Money matters had been abused
6. Monetary incentives and privileges had been granted to the one and only one--PG1 and family

After this EGM, I am more convinced than ever that this is serious and all of us whether voting member, associate, junior or even elderly must come together to voice our grievous concerns in the church. For those who doesnt mind all the 'abuses', you are to be responsible for your future generation in the church. If you think it is Ok, we dont blame you because that is how probably your conduct/practice in your life is right now.

I dont mind and more than willing to contribute financial help to our pastors when need arises. Truly, any of our pastors need financial help, the BOD should always bring it before the members and let us all decide. Why only BOD decide--this is 'abetting'.

Eg. I had been helping some even non christian financially for the last 20-30 years monthly as I see the need of that person. What more if its our pastors--so long as they are genuine and sincere.

April 6, 2009 10:21 AM

Forgiven spirit said...

Have a heart SP & BOD

Let your forgiving spririt prevails
by anulling his termination letter
and rekindle his membership.

If our Tun M can return & be accepted, why cant Dr. Lum ?

Have the forgiving spirit shine in this Easter.

April 6, 2009 8:17 AM

Apostle said...

RECONCILATION ??

TTG & BOD to sit down and work out a reconciliation?
Lets say 2 TTG & 2 BOD members ?
And one neutral Chairman ?

Not possible !!
2 TTG & 2 BOD have opposite mindsets,
And will cancel each other out.
Neutral Chairman can give casting vote
But no such person exists in Calvary.

Better to seek AOG Superintendent
To set up an INDEPENDENT PANEL
to sort out ALL allegations.
So we can clear the air once & for all
AND START AFRESH.
Lets not leave any stones unturned.

April 6, 2009 10:49 AM

James said...

PG1 & the MIRY CLAY

Your flat refusal to let Dr. Lum into the sanctuary
To DEFEND HIMSELF
Despite LOUD coaxing by the congregation
Speaks VOLUMES about your SENSE OF FAIR PLAY
Or rather the LACK OF IT!
A Lady shouted:
WHAT HAVE YOU TO HIDE ??
Hit the nail on the head.

YOU ARE THE SENIOR PASTOR for goodness sakes!
WHAT EXAMPLE IS THIS ??
WHAT SHAMELESSNESS !!

And so we are seeing you sinking deeper
....into the bottomless miry clay.

April 6, 2009 1:23 PM

Forgive Who? said...

Dear Forgiven Spirit,

You only forgive someone if he has done something wrong. In this case, Dr Lum has not done anything wrong. So what is there to forgive. Just withdraw the letter which is constitutionally wrong. If you study the clause in the church constitution, this termination does not hold water at all.

But there are others in the church which need to ask for forgiveness.
Unfortunately, they dont think they have done anything wrong.

Probably it needs a sober person to tell someone that he is drunk. A drunkard will never say he is drunk.

April 6, 2009 11:23 AM

New Heart n New Spirit said...

Call to Repent....

Ezekiel 18:30-32

30. "Therefore, O house of Israel, I will judge you, each one according to his ways, declares the Sovereign LORD.

Repent. Turn away from all your offenses; then sin shall not be your downfall.

31. Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit.

Why will you die, O house of Israel?

32. For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD.

Repent and live!"

REPENT AND LIVE! The message is very clear... Turn away from all your offenses; then sin shall not be your downfall.

Let there be genuine repentance and no more falsehood and pretence.

Pastors, BOD and Auditors may you be honest and truthful before GOD and not pretend that things are alright..... that there are no irregularities or misappropriation!

Why are you using the rules and procedures and the constitution to cover your tracks and say all is in order? What are the real intentions and motives of PG and BOD behind the matters brought up before us?

May there always be fear of GOD and not fear of man among you.

Be Godly examples to the sheep.

April 6, 2009 3:29 PM

James said...

BOD

You still DON’T KNOW
that the majority of the congregation

DON’T WANT YOU ?????

April 6, 2009 3:47 PM

Twisties said...

Offering collected for Ps. Stevenson not given to him means the followings:

1. annoucement make behind the pulpit cannot be trusted.

2. offering collected is up to them to give or not to give.

3. youth are betrayed.

4. must always think before you give to any offering

5. offering collected can be twisted

I think I give the pastors a packet of twisties for their birthdays

April 6, 2009 3:45 PM

Sentinel said...

Yes, VOTE for CHANGE!
VOTE for righteousness!
VOTE for justice!
VOTE for truth & transparency!
VOTE for good church governance!
VOTE for ACCOUNTABILITY!
VOTE for the Lord's Name to be glorified!
VOTE for Dr. Lum to be vindicated!

April 6, 2009 4:50 PM

AGM Date said...

Dear Calvarites (all Voting and Associate Members),

The coming AGM of Calvary Church will be the biggest and most challenging event in the history of Calvary Church.

All members are important to Calvary Church, whether they are young or old.

Lets stand up for CHANGE in Calvary Church. Not because we want to change but rather we cannot allow for what has been happening the last three decades in Calvary Church to continue.

I do not want to give any details here but you all would know what I am talking about, especially those who attended the very eventful EGM on 4 April 2009.

Lets come in full force for the coming AGM, even though some have been going around to other churches for some proper spiritual food every now and then.

But unfortunately we do not know when the AGM will be held. It is so secretive. Just like a Prime Minister calling for a general election and keeps everyone guessing. But this is a church. How can this be?

Lets guess the date.

1. Firstly notice must be given 30 days before the AGM date.

2. Secondly it must be held by 30 June.

3. So the window will be between second week of May to end of June.

4. School holidays will be during the first two weeks of June.

5. June 6 is a public holiday.

6. So my guess will be that the AGM will be held on 5 June 2009!!!

Just an intelligent guess.

So please defer your holiday trip that you have planned or are planning for this coming school holiday in the first two weeks of June.

See you then.

April 6, 2009 4:21 PM

Josh said...

Dear brethren,

As a regular worshipper but not a member as I introduced myself some time back, I asked and was politely informed that it was for members only. But the fact that it was a 5 hour meeting shows me that there was a serious effort to address the issues.

These issues go back some time, and it would be presumptuous to assume that it would be settled in 1 meeting. I understand 4 of the 5 resolutions were not passed and surely the fact that these objections were not blatantly over-ruled says something?

The comments that ensue in this section however is unnecessary and definitely not reflective of purported objectives of Calvary Today, why not end it here and take it to within the four walls of church since there is now an established forum?

I was appalled on Sunday to find what I assume to be TTG supporters speaking in small groups about the situation in church. Did you not make yourself heard during the EGM? Surely the peacemakers need to stand up now and be counted?

On the question of whether funds have been abused, I assume that the leadership have provided some answers to the questions. If Calverites object, the proper forum is again in the EGM/AGM.

But before we lose out heads, consider this. Corporate governance is a hotly debated issue especially in the corporate world. Typically the remuneration of a CEO is decided by a remuneration board for several reasons; among which is the independence and trust given to the board, the need for competitive secrecy, the respect of privacy and the plain simple reason that an employee earning RM 3,000/month cannot be in a position to understand why a CEO is paid RM 1 million p.a. excluding benefits for example.

In my previous church, the remuneration of the pastor is decided by the senior Elder. Once this is decided upon, there are no questions asked. Like it or hate it, that is the system that has worked and it is based partly on the understanding given in the previous paragraph. In the church context, the issues become more sensitive, hence the role of the Board of Deacons or Elders is important. Their role is not only ensure the proper administration of the church, it is also to equip the pastor to do his job. I will not go into how much quantum is sufficient - that is a question for the BOD.

The fact that Dr Lum knew these were sensitive questions that needed to be handled properly and in context was lost on him - and that I believe is the reason for the reprimand in the first place. To say that the BOD are a bunch of Yes-men is laughable since he was a member of the same BOD for 11 years - getting re-elected over again.

If as members you feel the remuneration and benefits extended to Senior Pastor is excessive, now that it is open for public consumption, give your views within in the proper forum - and with the proper structure.

I read somewhere that HM is a man with corporate experience. Tell, me, when was the last time you had your salary decided by your colleagues?

Just as you would not tolerate this in your workplace, why subject our Senior Pastor to this? You who are members have the power to vote - you have demonstrated it during the EGM.

Just as Dr Lum has been a church member for 40 years, Senior Pastor has been our pastor longer than that. Maybe it's time to step back a bit from the personal attacks and focus on the real issues of change and governance.

Anonymous said...

Just because you walk to the microphone and challenge SP directly and openly does not make you a hero. The manner in which your group speaks and presents itself (I shall say a little bit like Mat Rempit) demonstrates your lack of class. I have lost respect for the people in your group, and some of them hold high powered positions in the corporate world.

Suppose I were to do a video recording of some of your TTG member's behaviour during EGM and send it to their bosses or their staff...........???

Your accusation of SP is so openly available to everyone, but what you do not accept any comment or feedback on your own behavior or wrongdoing - how is this fair?

You can say you do not control the millions in Calvary Church, but you do control your behavior and attitude, don't you?

Fed up said...

Dear Josh,

You may have valid points based on the corporate world to say what you say.

Don't you realise by now that SP and the BOD would not entertain any feedback from the members. The workshop for the resolutions before the EGM. There were many suggestions for amendments and apparently the Treasurer assured the workshop that they would work on the resolutions again. See what happened - they blatantly put the resolutions out for adoption at the EGM without one word altered. I was shocked - weren't you. This clearly proved that SP and the BOD could not care less who objected.

Re SP's renumeration - I dont think they were objecting to how his increments were decided . What the people are objecting was that he (SP) and another deacon evaluated and decide on his own family's pay!!! Do you think this is right?

Although SP invited people to come in to discuss issues - he would listen but would he be willing to weigh the points raised and "for the sake of reconciliation" agree on a change. Josh looks as if you really do not know our SP well. From past experience he could twist whatever was said. Look at the way he interpreted the two persons who went in to submit the resolutions. He gave the impression that the two were satisfied with what was explained to them. If the 2 persons did not stand up to refute him - people would get the impression that the 2 pesons went away satisfied.

As to why this blog is still giving out facts and people are talking - SP is still hiding his head under the sand and not doing what he should be doing as OUR PASTOR, OUR HEAD. He has to stand out and reach out to the people and understand their feelings and sentiments. If he has done that at the start - non of the dirty linen would be aired. Now the whole world knows and surprise! surprise! SP does not even care or be bothered.

So Josh you do need to find out more about our SP before you start commenting on this and that and telling the long time members what to do. They know SP much better than you!! Why not you, Josh, get a meeting with SP, one to one, and discuss ways to bring an end to this saga - then let us know your reaction.

pshn said...

“I AM THE SENIOR PASTOR”

This was stated loudly several times by PG1 at the EGM.
As if to tell the congregation,
....you are obligated to listen to me as such.

SORRY PG1
This is not the way things play out in the real world.
You fill the position called “Senior Pastor”
But it is not the position that makes the man,
It is the kind of man that fills the position that counts.

The congregation is fully aware you hold the title,
.......but you do not hold their hearts.

I know,
....it is so difficult for a person like you to understand such things.

They held respect for you once,
...but not now ???

You need to:
Walk the talk,
Tell the truth,
Straighten the twists & turns.
When “truths” keep on contradicting each other,
...then every one knows that there is a lie !!
You didn't know?? TSK, TSK.

Put simply,
Be the kind of Christian we all can respect !!

...

Oldtimer said...

Dear Josh,

You are missing the point. PG & PG2 are the ones who do not want change. Change does not benefit them which is why they are fighting tooth-and nail to keep what they have now. They are behaving as though they are kings & their family is the dynasty that continues to enjoy the benefits - only now when they are pushed to a corner (& all the dirt on their lives are being dug out!), they are saying that the staff is also entitled to the same entitlements! I became a member of this church way back in 1972 and through all those years I have never heard them say that the staff are also entitled to all the perks, like financial support for their children's overseas education! This is obviously a lie, but one which they intend to implement just to cover up their excesses. Running a church is different from running a company. An SP is NOT a CEO. Pesonal attacks on him are justified as he and his wife are the cause AND the SOURCE of all the trouble, the division, the lies, the corruption in the midst of the church leadership.

Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely!

Only when PG & PG repents then only will the church be restored to wholeness. The Guneratnams have to go, in order to save this church & to restore the Lord's honoour.

Shockingly below any kind of measure said...

Hey Josh,

I just wish to comment on renumeration and appropriate policy engaged in authoristaion. I came from a corporate world like most of you.

I wish to stick to the principles of your contention about authorisation and let others discuss abt quantum and what's deemed modest or excessive.

You do not sit as a chairman on the renumeration and human resource committee with just one or two others from the BODs to decide increment from there - for yourself, yourwife, your son, your son-in-law. Don't even bring in the corporate world practice which is of a higher standard in most aspects. If not, CC would not be engaged in all these issues which were blatantly swept underneath the rugs for many years.

Defending the Indefensible actions said...

How can one continue to support and defend the indefensible situation revealed after Saturday EGM?

Dr. Lum was sacked for his courage to stand up and speak the truth. The action to shut his mouth and freedom to speak is vindictive.

Members who discovered and brought up the inappropriate transfer of mission funds to the personal ministry of PG were labelled and called "malicious" Spreading malicious allegations. Why go so low....

Please print all the malicious allegations now in the bi-monthly Calvary News for all to read should there be real malice and unresolved malicious allegations.

Otherwise, take action to reinstate Dr. Lum to full membership and a proper written apology to the members concerned for making that critical announcement. Waking up congregation members who were totally in the "dark" and in slumber to ask one another what that statement was all about.

A qualified statement of apology after wrapping up the EGM is no apology as it lacks honesty and sincerity.

Think of the pain hurt and self-esteem inflicted to Dr. Lum and family in particular and in general the courageous members for first disclosing the misdeeds and total lack of transparency and good governance.

Who said we do cannot apply the high corporate and business world standard? The highest possible moral and ethical standards ought to be applied in God's business.

IF vs BUT said...

IF ONLY SP agreed with Sam Ho on the Extended Ministries accounts......

TTG will not get to see the CIM accounts.

IF ONLY SP agreed with Sam Ho on the Extended Ministries accounts......

TTG will not know RM800,000 has been transfered to CIM.

IF ONLY SP agreed with Sam Ho on the Extended Ministries accounts......

TTG will not know charity funds are in CIM.

IF ONLY SP agreed with Sam Ho on the Extended Ministries accounts......

CIM will not be deregistered by NECF

IF ONLY SP agreed with Sam Ho on the Extended Ministries accounts......

We need not paid Dr.Guynes USD10,000 (Price of Proton Saga)

IF ONLY SP agreed with Sam Ho on the Extended Ministries accounts......

We do not need to amend constitution.

IF ONLY SP agreed with Sam Ho on the Extended Ministries accounts......

The Guneratnam's family will still get to enjoy all the perks

IF ONLY SP agreed with Sam Ho on the Extended Ministries accounts......

Members will not know that VOLVO XC90 was not a gift.

IF ONLY SP agreed with Sam Ho on the Extended Ministries accounts......

Members will not know that bookshop is registered under Sis.Petrina's name.

IF ONLY SP agreed with Sam Ho on the Extended Ministries accounts......

Dr. Lum will not be sacked for telling the truth

IF ONLY SP agreed with Sam Ho on the Extended Ministries accounts......

We need not hold 2 EGMs.

IF ONLY SP agreed with Sam Ho on the Extended Ministries accounts......

IRD will not raid DP office and SP house.

IF ONLY.......
IF ONLY.......
IF ONLY.......

BUT GOD IS IN CONTROL.
BUT GOD IS IN CONTROL.
BUT GOD IS IN CONTROL.

^ ^
* *
!
~~~

IF vs BUT

No heroes, only a dictator said...

Hello Anonymous, April 7, 2009 6:53 AM.

Only SP himself wanted to be a hero, the members just wanted THE TRUTH. Just look at the way he was holding the mike and giving one objection after another. But the most heroic words from SP that meetng was, “You SIT DOWN first, I will call you to speak.” What happened to common courtesy? Look what happened to Edward? SP made him look like a fool standing out there as a Chairman for that session and then SP came back to grab back the position. Why? Edward not competent enough to be Chairman? SP just cannot be quiet for more than 5 mins. Can you who were not around imagine, there was a time, Bro Winslow got a bit emotional becoz he had to address 2 Chairmans?

If members behave like Mat Rempit, it is because SP is not a good Chairman. A good chairman is supposed to listen and moderate the meeting, not give his explanation on issues and he certainly did not display class by again SHUTTING MIKES OFF when he does not want members to speak. Just wondering if our Tan Sri SP knows that he had ordered the mike to be switched off when a CEO of a Corporate Company spoke. That’s how little respect our hero Tan Sri has for others. BTW I’m not taking about Datuk KC. SP ordered Datuk KC like he was ordering his dog to sit down. Really this hero SP has no class and no respect for anyone at all.

Honestly, from what we witnessed and heard last sat, I can imagine what goes on in all our church committee meetings. Do you really think they are INDEPENDENT? In the presence of 600 to 700 members, he also display his dictatorial arm, what more in a meeting of 6 to 7 people.

Defender of the faith said...

Dear Anonymous @ 6:53 am,

You find fault with those from TTG, questioning their behavior, etc.

How come you do not find fault with PG's behaviour at the EGM, the way he rudely put down those who dared to ask questions, the way he often contradicted himself, his twisting of the truth, his obvious arrogance & lies, his unrepentant behaviour, etc.?

Surely as SP his behaviour was found wanting! But of course, you do not see this obvious MISbehaviour of PG - you are his crony, his supporter, maybe you have even benefitted in times past from his 'generosity with church money' used to buy loyalty and allegiance for himself? That's why you closed one eye to PG's MIS-behaviour and resorted to attack those who genuinely speak out for truth & transparency.

Please judge yourself first before you presume you are in a position to judge TTG!!

Joseph said...

THE SILENCE OF THE LAMBS

During the EGM
The silence was very loud!
Of the Assoc Pastors??
PG2
Some BODs
Dato’N was not even present!!

Was brother Puan there ??
So eager to be a member of the
Panel of Enquiry to sack Dr. Lum
Had he soberly judged his own leadership standing in CC
He would realised he really had no standing....to judge Dr. Lum



...

U tube said...

Hey Anonymous please do send copies to the TTG bosses. You must also send to the Deacons and Auditors' bosses and clients. Then send a copy to CT for them to down load here so that we can all see for ourselves what happened last saturday's meeting. Put in U-tube better so easy for us to watch. Hey I'm serious and I'm sure many others want to watch also, so please do us all a favour. Thanks in advance.

RPK said...

To PG & BOD,

Most of us, who have heard of the Hang Tuah & Hang Jebat story, would have heard Hang Jebat's famous dying quote (whilst in the arms of Hang Tuah) - "Raja adil Raja disembah, Raja zalim Raja disanggah" which translates to "A Fair king is a king to be Obeyed, a Cruel king is a king to Fight against".

For a better understanding of the Hang Tuah & Hang Jebat story, read it at " http://mt.m2day.org/2008/content/view/19258/84/ "

Meanwhile back to our last Saturday's EGM, while reading the Hang Tuah story, I could identify & understand why the Concerned Calvarites spoke out againt the Raja Zalim (aka PG) the way they did. In fact, some of them were new & unknown faces who probably felt compelled by God to stand up for Him & for the Truth.

My view is that God has answered the prayers of the TTG members by bringing His Holy Fire down on CC at the EGM.

Btw, Sis. Margaret Stewart had this word for someone (I wonder for whom?) when she spoke on Sunday 29th March 2009 from Proverbs 29:1 :-

"A man who remains stiffnecked after many rebukes will suddenly be destroyed - without remedy." - NIV

"Whoever stubbornly refuses to accept criticsm will suddenly be broken beyond repair." - NLT

I think it cannot be any clearer than the NLT version & by now we should all know who this verse is meant for .....

Sentinel said...

"Many pastors have destroyed my vineyard, they have trodden my portion underfoot, they have made my pleasant portion a desolate wilderness." (Jeremiah 12:10 KJV)

The anger of the Lord has been kindled against the pastors of Calvary Church! Repent before it is too late!

No Compassion said...

SP dont even have the curtesy to attend the wake service of his long time Church obedient servant who sacriced much of his life in CC.

In fact, I dont see him in any wake service unless you are a cash-rich cow or a VVIP.

Wake-up, SP, dont play play with your members.

New Visitation said...

More Shall be Awakened....

Praise the LORD there was a powerful visitation from GOD last Saturday 4 April 2009 at Calvary Church. Never before we had such an open discussion for an EGM or AGM in our church.

This a new revelation and GOD is doing a new thing in our midst. GOD has heard the cries of His people. He has seen the oppression and abuses/insults hurled on His people from the very servants whom He has called to serve and minister to His people.

Let us continue to pray and ask God to work His plan and will for Calvary Church... a new visitation and to bring about a new identity and a fresh anointing to rise to new level of ministry for His Church.

Hallelujah. GOD IS GREAT!

Suci said...

I would like to forward my concern with regards to comment from the various people either thru personal contact or thru reading the 3 blogs.

a. I dont think the TTG needed the so call 'support' from anyone, if God and church leadership is for the truth and transparency and governance issues, who are these people who always said and remarked statement like this: " I was initially for TTg, now no longer". To me whatever you said, its up to you, you can forget about any plead from me to support TTG, I have to tell you when you said like this I lose respect for you because you dont know what you are talking anyway.

2. TTG is merely a 'tag' created by different ones, the fact is, is there such issues in calvary church?

3. If you think your support count, I urge you to pray and let God speaks to you, but please do not insult the intelligence of your friend.

4. the SP I knew in calvary church 30 years ago, no longer the same, those early days, he was a good man, now I see all his ugliness in the last few AGM and EGM and during leaders meeting as well as church service.

5. the so call "supporter" of SP also not any better to me as I witnessed it with my own eyes during EGM, they stood up, hammering with their hand gesture, shouting at those who stood up to asked question. If you dont believe, go view the recording again. I hope the church did not erase it...

Joshua said...

Dear Josh

You got your facts wrong. Dr Lum has been in Calvary LONGER than SP.
He was probably one of those who voted for PG to be our SP.

Talk of biting the hand that feeds you.

My guess about Josh said...

Josh my guess is you are not an ordinary member with no hidden agenda. What you say is like promoting SP & BOD's message here. Same song being sung. Go to right forum at EGM & AGM, speak to leaders and BOD BUT when you speak you end up like Bro. Joseph, dropped from leadership. Then talk some more end up like Dr Lum, have to sit outside with 2 guards next to you. (Did you all notice two big size brothers sitting nearby Dr Lum last sat?) But at least you are more polite than SP and so ok to read your views lah but makes no sense to me.

Bro Josh, we are talking church here not institution. We all work for our heavenly Father. You pastors are just care takers of God's house. Be careful who you sack from serving in God's house. Anyway that's for the leaders to answer God, I don't have to worry.

Concerning Bro Han, he is SUPPOSED TO BE A DEACON - THE HIGHEST LEVEL OF LAY LEADERS. Every special occassion in church, our fren is in coat and shaking hands. How can he be promoting any blog or person who claims to be not of the church? It's like him telling people to go to SIB and then when caught say he is doing it on his personal basis. As a leader, he should not be promoting any blog or person - finish story! For you to say, "to point to Calvary Today when he does not agree nor condone this site? If he were to do that, I would seriously question his common sense much less ability to lead in wisdom." So you are confirming that he does indeed condone the other 2 sites. Thanks for the confirmation. You have just put him in better light. I know you are not him to speak for him, then please Bro Josh, let Han speak for himself. Let SP speak for himself.

For a non-member who could not even be in the EGM last sat, you sure know our leaders very well. How do you know that, "There have been accusing emails and smses sent to them which is un-Godlike and need to stop." Have they given you the special priviledge to read personal mails sent to them?

Lastly, you end with, "They are human last I checked and so are we." Why you speak like you are many, "so are we". How have you checked with them? you have their personal contact numbers? Or you are a great keh-poh who goes around asking personal questions?

oh josh said...

Josh, stop defending SP. I can sense your Partiality very strongly.

Not rational enough said...

Josh is merely speaking out of his experience. He HAS mentioned that he isn't a long time calvarite like most of you who comment here. The very least of it, he speaks with little partiality on being for or against SP.

It seems a little hypocritical if you enjoy the freedom of posting comments and condemning anyone who doesn't subscribe to every single detail that you say.

YOU TUBE PG TOO! said...

U tube...let's also put PG's arrogant video into You tube,shall we? That way, all the pastors in Malaysia and world wide can also see how proud and arrogant he is! let's do that!

shame, shame, shame said...

Josh, Josh, Josh, looks like you have not been in Calvary Church long enough to make any statement here. Do you know when PG commence his SPship in CC? DONT EVEN KNOW YOUR FACTS AND YET YOU DARE TO MAKE A STATEMENT SAYING THAT PG HAS BEEN THE SP IN CC FOR MORE THAN 40 YEARS? Shame on you. I have been to CC since 1971 and he was not in CC then. So how could he be the SP FOR MORE THAN 40 YEARS?

Oldtimer said...

O gosh, Josh!
You have been so impressed by PG & PG2 from the 2-3 times you met with them & when PG2 prayed for somebody close to you, ah? You've only met with them 2-3 times. meh?

No wonder you were so easily impressed, especially during this past year or so, when the whole truth & transparency thing blew up in their faces, both PG & PG2 were trying so hard to impress the church-goers every Sunday by shaking their hands & smiling their false smiles and trying so very hard to give people the impression that they are actually very nice pastors!!!

However, too bad for you, this is merely a false put-on impression they are giving! Don't let them fool you, Josh! When they smiled at you & said pleasant words to you, they were probably thinking of the money you will be contributing towards their lavish lifestyle!

My sister plunged into depression many years ago & when she called PG2 & asked for her to visit so as to pray with her, PG2 turned her down & told her bluntly to come to church instead, otherwise she will do no praying!! Now, THIS is the real PG2 - she had become too important to do visitation & praying for her troubled sheep!

'NOT ONCE did they say a negative word about TTG???' you say? HUH? Were you deaf when PG condemned TTG from the pulpit & called them snakes & told them to jump in the lake (LAKE OF FIRE?!!)?

SK ain't no saint said...

I think Josh probably did not talk to Pastor Steven as this is one pastor who did not hesitate to talk bad about the TTG members any chance he gets...

My guess about Josh said...

Not rational enough, a good night to you.

Why you say ppl condemn Josh when all we said was to clarify with him what he says. This is like a debate session. You tell us your point and we rebutt. Then we tell you our point. If you feel so sensitive, then don't blog. Let the leaders speak for themselves.

If Josh only know half story, then he shoouldn't give his opinion. If he does not know SP personally or the Deacons personally, then he shouldn't talk like he knows everything about them. We old timers have seen alot, heard alot, spoken alot to them so we know what we are talking about.

For eg, if Josh count properly, he will know that Dr Lum has been a church member since 1971 ie 38 yrs and SP became pastor of cc in 1972 ie. 37 yrs. We must talk facts, not simply say things on behalf of others and then when questioned, someone else hop in and accuse us of condemning others.

the truth is out there said...

My wife was in the EGM. The moment she met me after the EGM, she could not keep her feelings in check. She said "You should see how PG1 twist and turn his words. He contradicts himself in seconds." Cheekily I said "I told you so". My wife was very supportive of PG1 a couple of years ago; I had received many a earful from her whenever I mentioned any thing which is not favourable for him. Today she sees things differently.

To those who are fearful that the church will disintegrate if PG1 is removed, don't jump and hit the panic button. Leaders come and go. Do countries/governments collapse when there is a change in presidents or prime ministers? Almost everybody in the corporate world has heard or may even has said "No man is indispensable." However when they come to church, they fear man and not God. These people attend management courses and seminars, implement guidelines, carry out their responsibilities with good management practices and becomes successful in the corporate world. But when in church, these high standards that they practice are often thrown out of the window.

The secular world has high standards for transparency and accountability. There are rules and laws to prevent those in position from falling into temptation. In the church, these same standards MUST be even higher. Otherwise, it becomes a mockery when others see that our standards are lower and also questionable.

Her are some quotes of William Shakespeare:

(1) To the BOD:
"And oftentimes excusing of a fault doth make the fault the worse by the excuse."

(2) To those who are in denial:
"The devil can cite Sripture for his purpose."

(3) To the TTG and concerned members:
"Virtue is bold and goodness never fearful" and
"Boldness be my friend"

(4) To the supremo:
"False face must hide what the false heart doth know."

Love Thy Neighbour(s) said...

To all Bros & Sisters of CC

Since we returned to Malaysia, "Love Thy Neighbours" have been preached countless times over the years. Messages from PG and other pastors on this spiritual theme from various passages from the Holy Bible now ring hollow in my ears.

I cannot reconcile this biblical truth with the hollowness when I were to hear this message again from the pulpit whenever preach by the so-called leadership who participated in the unjust termination of Dr. Lum's "ex-communication"

Are we still in the middle ages?

The Last Straw said...

To Bro Josh,

May I suggest to you to be a little less patronising in your choice of words and phrases

Reveal your full name, brother, and I will do the same.

May I have an answer

Josh said...

Dear brethren, I started looking at this site on the day I made my first posting. I am truly sorry if my statement about years of service is wrong. It is not my intention to mislead.

All the same, I find it incredible that given my views, it is my numerical mistake alone that is pointed out. Not for the first time, I am being labeled as someone with an ulterior motive, in this case for supporting the institutional platform as a solution. Can you explain to me why this is a waste of time, especially in light of TTG's "success" in defeating 4 of 5 resolutions in the recent EGM? Or perhaps this is another misleading scheme to turn the heads of Calverites?

The fact is, this is NOT a debate. If it were, I am wasting my precious time and we are doing our Lord a great disservice in our attempts to "win". Having read the postings as I was lovingly instructed to do, I find reasons to disagree with some of the conclusions drawn and would like to address these points. Most of my points however have been disregarded as if I do not have a voice since I am not even a non-voting member of the church.

Now, I am told that I should not comment without knowing the whole story about Calvary Church and its pastors. Tell me, how many here know the WHOLE story? Unless the other postings are just the enlightened few of TTG masquerading as different persons, I would venture to say "we" who do not know the WHOLE story outnumber those who "DO". If this is the case and only the accredited few are allowed to speak, then it is time to disable this comments section so that the Joshs, WSL etc are shut for good.

Yet as long as Calvary Today stands for Truth et all, I believe it is my responsibility to question where this is necessary and to promote the love and grace of the Lord I call my Savior.

Let me also address the question about my partiality. I am partial to the institution of the church, God's truth and his command for us to love one another. In the times that I stage a defence of Senior Pastor, a deacon or another church member it is based on my own personal experience with them - whether it be once, twice or a thousand times. Not only are we a big church, we are a city church which means many like me are rushing off at the end of service to pick our children and meet other family members for lunch. On that score, I will not base my impression of someone on the basis of hearsay.

I know this probably won't go well here again, but people change over 30 years. Consider the senior corporate people among us and how they were 30 years ago. Are they the same? Has nothing changed? No examples is necessary from me - as I said, I am not here to advocate personal attacks. But let's look at the plank in our eye first.

On my statement about the accusing emails and smses, it is not a well-kept secret. My point is this - is that edifying or even helpful for the course? Is that the higher standard we are striving for?

Likewise, when I say we - I really mean those of us who are of the human race, who have an association with Calvary Church and need not necessarily be affiliated with any leader, pastor, blog and small groups of people at the teh tarik shop. I suppose "My guess about Josh said..." that should include you too... being human I mean.

Winds Of Change said...

This is the comment I made in response to Calvary UNity's latest post, "How Can We Digest The Events At Calvary Church?" where the writer claimed that 'removing SP will result in the disintegration of Calvary Church'! I am not sure whether my comment will be posted up, so I repeat it here....

"Believe you me, removing PG & PG2 & the whole Guneratnam Dynasty from the church leadership will definitely NOT cause Calvary Church to disintegrate!

Change is good! Calvary Church will have better days ahead once new pastors take over the helm! After all, God is in control and He will always put in new leadership once the old leadership turns rotten!

A case in point, King Saul & all his three sons were removed in ONE DAY to make way for a NEW KING, KING DAVID, to rule. King David turned out to be Israel's BEST KING!

I strongly believe that a change of leadership for Calvary Church will be the BEST MOVE, so that our beloved CC can shake off its yoke & move on to do greater things for the Lord!"

New Visitation said...

As we are now in the Passion Week, let us reflect on the LORD's Suffering for all of us.

May the LORD remind us that no matter how tough, discouraging and disheartening the events are in CC we believe something good and beautiful will come out of the bleakest situation.

May GOD make a special visitation to our Church and give us the hope and assurance that He will do something new....

Our GOD is a God of Miracles... Sweet Holy Spirit work a miracle of humilty and contrite submission to the awesome, Holy and Righteous GOD, our Heavenly Father,

in SP, SAP Associate pastors and BOD.... Surely their hearts cannot be hardened against our Heavenly Father...

if they are truly His children they will yield to the still small voice from our Father God.

This season of quiet reflection is a time to come back to GOD and bow down in repentance and in awe of GOD in His holy presence.

Holy Spirit...Come and visit us again in Calvary Church and grant us a new and fresh anointing!

In Jesus' Wondrous Name we pray... AMEN

Poll Survey said...

Let's do a poll survey on the up & coming deacons whom members are going to vote.

In USA, normally there is such a poll to gauge who will be the next
president

My vote to N is out from the way his wife stood up to defend SP.

That is blatant impartiallity and definitely no independence on BOD decision if he is elected.

It will be a yes man, all the way.

One shot down

We should also survey who are suitable as it would be a waste of our time for 5 hrs or more in an AGM if the deacon selected are bias.

Might as well stay home & look after our kids or take care of our own business.

Let not spoil our voting rights

CALVARY TODAY said...

Dear Brothers and Sisters in Christ,

Last weekend was an eventful weekend for most of us in CC. As we are in the mid week now, and also into the PASSION WEEK of our Lord Jesus Christ, let us quieten our spirit and spend some time reflecting on what Jesus has gone through for us some 2000 years ago.

You will notice that we have put up for your reading Isaiah 53. Let us read and reflect and meditate on the Word of God, and come Friday, we will truly set aside time to remember that Jesus died for each and every one of us. Let us celebrate this Good Friday with a truly broken and contrite heart before God.

Let us join our hearts with "New Visitation" to have a quiet time with God and seeking His wisdom and direction as we move on in the coming days.

As to "Poll Survey's" suggestion, CT would suggest that we discuss that matter when the church announce the AGM date. Meanwhile, we will reserve our comments for the next few days to current issues or words of encouragement from the Lord as we prepare to celebrate Good Friday and Easter this weekend.

Some TTG brothers and sisters have committed to fast and pray on Friday and then to celebrate Easter with anticipation and joy.

Have a Blessed Good Friday and Joyous Easter!!!

Josh said...

Dear Last Straw,

I cannot help it if you doubt my intentions. But if you fault the manner in which I write, I hope your judgment falls back on fact. If I err on fact, as I wrote, I am wrong... feel free to point it out.

But if my choice of words is offensive to you, please fault my grammar teacher... and read it the way it is intended, as an alternate point of view for consideration.

This cause of TTG demands the higher road of us ALL. Just as I will not make it personal, you may call me Josh or brother.

Yours truly,
Josh

True colours of leadership said...

since we are talking about basing our opinions solely on what we have encountered with SP, pastors and BOD, I'm sure many of us have personally experienced for ourselves the true colours of our church leadership. I have also personally encountered and seen how the church leadership has handled church members etc. So based on that, i will not based my opinions on what you have encountered with the pastors and deacons either, Josh...because I have my own encounters with them and they are not who they say they are.

Josh said...

Dear "True colours of leadership said..." that in the end is your prerogative and I hope that you will find peace in your decision. I have no illusions as to what impact my postings will make. But hope all the same that there will be a restoration of fellowship that will see Calvary go forward.

Once again, my comments are judged on the basis of a minor consideration - in this case my decision to share my experience.

For the third time, if I err on fact, let me know. I stand ready to be corrected.

Oldtimer said...

Oh gosh, Josh,

You err on facts, definitely;
You err on judgment, most assuredly;
You err on presumpteousness, because you presume yourself as more qualified than others (who have been longer in church than you have been) to know the true colours of PG & PG2,
You err on wrongly judging TTG's intentions and motives, & that's your worst error of all!

ex-Cheras goer said...

definitely cannot vote for N because many mths ago, he openly prayed against those who oppose PG whilst in Cheras morning pre service prayer.

PaN said...

CALVARY WILL DISITEGRATE IF PG1 GOES???

That is BLASPHEMY an HERESY rolled into one. It is the EASIEST thing for GOD to run Calvary. GOD will PROVIDE just the right person, just at the right and the all finances!

If that is how you think,no wonder you are supporting him AND FOR THE WRONG REASON.

There are more than a 3000 churches in Malaysia. Each one is managed quite efficiently, thank you very much,by its own team of Pastoral, ministerial & Administrative Staff

What is one more DWINDLING CALVARY CHURCH For the ALMIGHTY GOD to take care? The world has 4.4 billion people. My! God has a lot to choose from.

He is a God that makes something out of nothing.He can make the stones to cry out “HOSANNA”

And what IDOLATROUS saying is this?
You magnify one man to such a height that you begin to WORSHIP him and then declare he is irreplaceable, indispensible?
GOD FORBID!

PG1 is an evangelistic preacher.
He has ZERO ZERO ZERO pastoral gift(sorry for echo)despite that Calvary has been surviving for 40 years! What Calvary need is Just ONE person with a Pastoral gifting.
In fact one may even be already available.

CALVARY WILL DISITEGRATE IF PG1 GOES???
Contemptuous!!!

Discernment Needed said...

Dear Fellow Brothers & Sisters In Christ,

Could I suggest that for the next couple of days we put aside whatever "differences" we have; stop debating the issues and instead focus on the death & resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ!

Let us use our church's Easter outreach as a tool to share the Gospel of Jesus - no, it is not whether you support or don't support this or that ... Easter IS about Jesus and the church's Easter programme represents a good opportunity for us to reach out to our loved ones & non-Christian friends.

I certainly hope that there is none who is "boycotting" the Easter programme because of your concerns over what's happening in the church. Please don't as this is surely not what our Lord Jesus would want.

So my dear Brothers & Sisters in Christ .... let's honour our Lord Jesus at this Easter ... God Bless!

Anonymous said...

Paul the apostle....

1.Paul say he learnt to be content when abased and when abound. He never said because God is faithful I will always abound. He said it doesn’t matter either way, I will be content.Paul never ever clung to riches.
2.Hudson Taylor.....He was rich ???
3.Some times God allows us to be reasonably well off. That is a blessing
4.When you CRAVE for too much riches the riches can becomes a CURSE!

Johanis said...

THE EGM OF THE YEAR !!

The chairing could have been more democratic. Clarifications and explanation by the chairman was full of contradiction, lies and half lies with a lot of twists and turns. When that occurs then you begin wonder maybe things are NOT STRAIGHT !! There was an exceptional
S—-T—-R—-E—-T—-C—-H—-I—-N--G of the truth so that lies could be covered. Wasn’t it clear for all to see??

Autocracy reared its ugly head again in Calvary Church. And there was a hail of oppression accompanied by brute, crude and rude controls.

Changing the position of the goal posts was glaringly applied so that no matter how straight TTG kicks the ball, it will never get in & no matter how crooked the pro-PG groups kicks the ball it cannot but get it. One example is the application of Roberts Rule. Applied in the last EGM, disallowED in this EGM. Is this an example of a fair Christian practice?? BUT, PRAISE THE LORD, THERE WAS VICTORY FOR THE RIGHTEOUS !!

Hardened said...

Supporting the Easter program is no problem. It's the having to listen to PG's sermon & watch him stut his stuff on stage, making a mockery of the 'sacred desk,' that irks me! How can you even listen to such a liar? Everything that comes out of his mouth are lies because he does not practise what he preaches!

The Last Straw said...

Hello Bro Josh,
Thank you for your prompt but rather unsatisfactory response.
Before I proceed further, I sincerely trust that you will accept some critical observations in the true spirit of christain brotherly care and if you would identify yourself then I shall know the person I wish to share brotherly love with as well.

Your mistakes on facts have been abundantly and pointed out to you by many other bloggers if you shall carefully go over them yourself so I do not wish to repeat them.

I now wish to point out your defensive statement "please fault (it on} my grammer teacher".I hope that you are not serious. You must recognise that many poets, writers etc do not always come from the elite educational establishments yet the readers got the best works from their contributions. We hold the keyboard and have to be a little more careful.

Many of the cases heard in the juvenile courts (sometime adults too) will have often repeated excuses of blaming their parents, the surrounding etc for landing into trouble. Bros Josh, I hope I do not sound patronising in this instance with this illustration.

We learn and we still in the process of finding things out - most of the time in churches and the places we live and work in. In the church, I know I have frequently taken in the sermons that "the trees producing bad fruits ought to be cut down and thrown into the fire. Plant good trees for good fruits." This is clearly a truth which must be applied to ensure a smooth transition of leadership to present and future generations.

If we are not careful, we shall get many less informed and totally misformed to defend PG if he were to make "defensive" statements such as:-

(1) Blame the congregation for giving CC too much well in excess of annual needs
(2) Blame the deacons for keeping their mouth shut for so long
(3) Blame my family for wanting too much to spend etc etc.
(4) Blame the "discoverers" of wrongful transfers as malicious Calvarites/worshippers.
(5) Blame the bloggers for twisted lies. Only CK/CU telling truth.
(6) Blame the APs for being behaving like the fabled "three wise monkeys"

This listing can go on and on. Stop the blame game then the rot will stop. Stop fooling about with naive and innocent young minds by continuing with "business as usual" Bros Josh, we must all do the right thing, make the right move to show the "Way Forward" which was promised but not proceed with good delivery action.

Already he is now attempting to say that the congregation elected the BODs annually(listen to the recording) but he never face the facts that deacons who raised questions at meetings are not re-elected and some prefered not to be considered for re-election by association. Yes, we have contributed to this scenario but there is no excuse to let it go on. Check around Bros Josh.

Finally, do we wish to have someone in the key leadership role to continue leading us into juvenile deliquency in matters of faith, hope and love?

Why not, blame Dr. Lum for causing this mess???

Bros Josh, please respond next week as I wish to take heed of CT's recommendation to refrain.

Thank you for reading our dear brothers and sisters in Christ.

Josh said...

Dear Uncle Oldtimer, I only have one response to your post and that is to humbly wish you Blessed Easter.

Likewise to all Calverites and fellow believers, may the sacrifice and love of our Lord and Savior be manifest this Holy Week and for all time.

My prayer also goes out to those preparing the harvest field for this weekend; every singer, dancer, actor, helper, counselor, pastor, speaker, usher and Christian bringing a friend. May you find joy in being a humble tool in His hands and as he holds us up, may the scars that bore our sins envelope us with a sense of purpose for the salvation of the lost.

True Worship said...

PASSION WEEK is indeed a time of quiet reflection on the LORD's Suffering and Sacrifice for all mankind at Calvary.

Every Christ centred Church has its own program to remember the LORD's crucifixion, death and resurrection. We don't just attend Church to do the rituals, we attend Church where we are loved and we can minister to others in the Body and outside, as well be ministered to by the leadership and members in the Body.

Sad to say eventhough over the years we have been part of the Body in Calvary Church, yet now we don't feel belonged because of the way our leaders behave and act and treat concerned members.

The leaders don't care about the members who seek the truth. PG and BOD think they are above all others. They are the only ones who are right and all the rest who have questions about issues in church are wrong.

There is too much pride and lording over the members and worshippers in Calvary Church found in pastors and BOD. BUT they say it is their right to do as they think right, because we voted the BOD in!

Question: Do we have other good leaders (apart from PG and nominating committee's choices) to choose from? We have but we can't choose them..Why? Not condescending and compliant men and women!

If we think that by doing all the projects and activities for God that it will please Him ...when our hearts are far from Him and we do the things to oppress His people; then we are very much mistakened...

All our good deeds are in vain. They are like filthy rags to God.

We do not want to be actors and actresses when we attend services. We want to be real before God. It is no point to put on masks when we go for services. It is far too draining to pretend for so long.

It is liberating to worship among true worshippers and believers.. Calvary Church was once like that before but not now.

I long for the day when God will renew Calvary Church and set her from all unrighteousness and falsehood and that we are given a new identity in Christ Jesus!

Come Lord Jesus.. we await Your Coming soon!

True Worship said...

Yes, I long for the day when God will renew Calvary Church and set her free from all unrighteousness and falsehood.

I pray that our Church will be given a fresh anointing and a new identity.

It is all possible and Jesus by His death and resurrection proclaim to us it is possible...

Because He lives I can face tomorrow...
All fear is gone,
I know He holds the future and
Life is worth the living,
Just because He lives!

HALLELUJAH!

Oldtimer said...

A blessed Resurrection of our Lord to you, too, Josh.

True colours of leadership said...

Hi Josh, as a matter of fact,I do have peace in my decision. I hope you do as well and that your heart won't be conflicted with loyalty versus the truth.

FORM vs SUBSTANCE said...

Play Acting on BIG STAGE.

The past years Easter Performance 'results'at Bukit Jalil have not been good as far as reaching the 'CITY of KL' is concerned, which is really the main Objective. However, truth be told
i) CC end up with 95 % own members & worshippers
attending all the 3 performances.
ii) only a disappointing 3,000 attendance in an Arena which has a capacity of up to 20,000 seating


Therefore, :
1.WHY didn't anyone (SP/BOD Assoc Pastors) do a thorough review of its ineffectiveness?

2.Besides, The cost of Rental is very high ( tens of thousands $$$) and so are the elaborated stage & equipment cost etc. Surely, if CC is prudent with money, other alternative would yield a better 'harvest'.

3. Is it just to live up to SP's emphasis of CC as 'a fountain head' church, thus the need to do it it in style and a grand manner-- the "biggest" of all among all churches?

At the end of it all, is it mere Form over Substance?

Missions Director & BOD, had better give a good account of all the extravagance.

TIME for members to be concerned about RESULTS and ask How & Why money is spent like the way they do.

Easter Truth said...

The great Easter truth is not that we are to live newly after death, but that we are to be new here and now by the power of the Resurrection - Phillips Brooks

Blessed Easter

Discernment Needed said...

There's a latest article in CU on the so-called plans of the TTG to disrupt the Easter Celebration/Programme at Bukit Jalil ... I can't believe it is true ... can someone from the TTG come out officially to deny it ...

As I posted earlier, Easter IS the Lord Jesus Christ! Let's celebrate Easter as it is meant to be ...

Happy Easter! He is Risen!

Hosea 6:3 NLT said...

"Oh, that we might know the Lord! Let us press on to know Him! Then He will respond to us as surely as the arrival of dawn or the coming of rains in early spring."

Discernment Needed said...

Subsequent to my earlier post, I had submitted the following to CU:
_________________________________

Dear CU ... I don't know where you got the information leading you to post the so-called plans of the TTG to disrupt the Easter Celebration/Programme at Bukit Jalil this weekend ... you had better take full responsibility if this turn out to be untrue or inaccurate ... since this may be reflective of just a few unspiritual Christians talking and not the "official" plans of the TTG ... like I said, if this is untrue or inaccurate, I am sorry to say that it is people like you who are contributing to the division within the Body ... or at best, you are certainly not thinking about reconciliation and restoration ... and that, grieves our Lord Jesus Christ ...

Dear CT - please deny as otherwise, you would probably lose all respect from the majority of the church and I dare say, many of those who support you on the issues you are "fighting" for will no longer support your "cause" ...

Once again, I appeal to everyone ... let's celebrate Easter as it is meant to be ... the celebration of the resurrection of our Lord Jesus! He is Risen!

the truth is out there said...

There is so much controversy regarding the way the EGM is conducted - shouting by members, rudeness on PG1's part, questions and comments by members on both sides of the divide on the interpretation of the proceedings based on the audio recordings.

Will either party reproduce the audio recordings unedited? I am sure many members would pay a few ringgit to get hold of one. It cannot be denied that the recording by the floor would not be of optimum quality but still many will buy. I am sure the Church would have an audio recording too. For transparency and for truth, will the Church authorities reproduce the recording for sale to members. I think it will be going against a stone wall to ask the Church to do so based on past experiences when it comes to the way transparency and truth is being addressed. Maybe I should ask either TTG or CU/CK to give an unedited copy to me. Any offers?

CALVARY TODAY said...

In response to a rumor that the TTG group is planning to disrupt the Easter services at Bukit Jalil, CT made some enquiries and found that the rumor is baseless.

None of the known TTG guys are planning anything. The only thing they have planned is individual prayer and fasting during this holy period.

Blessed Easter!

cooked up story said...

I think it is they themselves that cook up the story to make TTG look bad. Or maybe they themselves are going to be doing all those things themselves and blame it on TTG.

OMG said...

If CU done without TTG knowledge,
then its a conspiracy to discredit
TTG. At first when I read it, I
couldnt believe it

Like in any election, this is one of the dirty tactics employed to
decimised TTG.

They are hoping that they will get
a 100 % votes ( 264 or something )
on their next AGM and none ( 164 something turn out )

I hope TTG dont employ any such move and let the HS to guide them through.

Karen said...

Greetings from Bangkok. Whatever the guys in CK/CU has cooked up, KC & I will be missing out on the fun the next two days. My prayer for the church is that all who attend the Good Friday and Easter services will be greatly blessed by the Lord.

Happy Easter Everyone.

Discernment Needed said...

Dear TTG ... thankyou for clarifying the posting on CU concerning the so-called planned disruption at Bukit Jalil ... I am glad there is no such thing being planned ... much appreciated ... and like I suggested ... Happy Easter & God Bless!

long time member 2 said...

To all church members,

See what CU has done!!! They have employed their dirty tactics again. So if anybody is distributing any thing IT IS NOT FROM TTG group. CU could be doing it themselves and putting the blame on TTG.

The way CU & CK have written their articles makes them look like they are ones who know every thing. They also think they are the right ones and every body else is wrong.

It is also quite funny to note that we can have different perceptions from different people on the EGM and what transpired there. So the best thing to do is for every one to get the unedited copy of the CD and listen for themselves.

We believe in doing the right thing said...

Hey concerned members

Looks like calvary church now have a bunch of very creative people. They know how to create story to either discredit truth or to distract the people from the current issues or they are simply having such plan and tactic in their heart and mind.

I dont think the concerned members can be fooled so easily by thier tactics and I hope all these creative allegation is not from 'creative art department'

Inside Job said...

The description by 'them' is so detailed and comprehensive.
Looks like its an inside job. I mean someone from the church or someone who knows the place well and can muster so many people to help.

Or maybe they are great politians who can plan and scheme such great acts to discredit another group.

disgusted by alternate blogs said...

CU creators and their dirty tactics. It shows their ugly hearts and disruptive spirits.

SML said...

UNTHINKABLE

I have never visited CU or CK site. ( which to what I can gather from comments in CT, I would conclude that both CU& CK are set-up to do "Politicking" for SP & BOD.

If they have posed such a baseless rumour re "disruption at Easter", they are either utterly irresponsible or frightened of their own shadow.
Perhaps, both.

We celebrate God's Hope,Joy & Love for Mankind
Have a Blessed Easter.

Understanding what is right n just n fair, every good path said...

The Truth shall prevail. People can scheme and try to deflect their wrongs to others. The ones who dig the holes to trap others will they themselves fall into their own trap.

GOD is on the side of truth. Concerned members have no personal agenda just to stand by the truth and speak out for truth.

GOD cannot be deceived by human schemes and scams. All scheming and false devices will be exposed!

We choose to fear GOD and seek wisdom and understanding from GOD. We choose to follow God's ways and not man's ways.

Proverbs 1:7

7. "The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge,

but fools despise wisdom and discipline."

Proverbs 2:1-11

1. "My son, if you accept My words
and store up My commands within you,

2. turning your ear to wisdom
and applying your heart to understanding,

3. If you call out for insight and cry aloud for understanding,

5. then you will understand the fear of the LORD
and find the knowledge of GOD.

6. For the LORD gives wisdom and from His mouth comes knowledge and understanding.

7. He holds victory in store for the upright,
He is a shield to those
whose walk is blamless,

8. for He guards the course of the just,
and protects the way of His faithful ones.

9. Then you will understand what is right and just
and fair - every good path.

10. For wisdom will enter your heart, and knowledge will be pleasant to your soul.

11. Discretion will protect you, and understanding will guard you."

We pray that all in Calvary Church will fear God and seek wisdom and understanding... then we will understand what is right and just and fair - every good path. For wisdom will enter our hearts and knowledge will be pleasant to our souls!

What wonderful promises to us...
Praise be to God!

IMy personal stand--not going to the stadium. said...

Alo : Friends

reading the way the CU is alleging abt the 'big hu-ha' going to happen in Stadium, my heart really cry out. I think personal stand is I would not be going to the 3 nites, so that I dont have to see the ugly behaviour of CU and their supporter.

I pray and ask God to forgive them,of their vengeance spirit.

Dangerous Game Ahead said...

I read from CU this morning that they were asking where is Sam HO, they never see him in DH and they said it is high time to terminate his membership.

Beware of their motive why they wanted to publish this comment this morning and disappeared by the time I logged in again in the evening.

Anyway it was captured already...haha, they think they can run away..

Sam Ho, be courages, do not allow CU/SP/BOD to intimidate you. They have reason if that is their intention...Are you one of the trustees of calvary church? if so, they may ask you to release yourself as a trustee and they may have wonderful good time thereafter....que sera sera..whatever will be will be...

walk the talk said...

I was at the stadium tonite and contrary to the evil alternate blog's accusations, there was no such chaos created by TTG. Come on, alternate bloggers, we also have friends participating in the Easter show and although we may not support what the church leadership is doing, we still support our friends who are part of the cast. I went to the stadium tonight to honour the Lord's day and to support my friends in the show. I cannot however stand the fact that PG may be talking the talk, but he is not walking the talk. He does not practice what he preaches and it is a disgrace that he is still standing on the stage talking about hidden sins and all while his own life is full of hidden sins.

Not rational enough.. said...

To "My Personal Stand...", do attend the Easter Celebrations with a heart of thanksgiving to what God has done for us. I went and I didn't notice any funny activities there. It was a good one and I had a good time.

I saw it too!!! said...

Hi all

Yes I also saw the thing on Sam Ho but it was not there when I logged in later.

It was very vicious note from CU seeking to remove him from church leadership if he holds any leadership position.

pshn said...

SAM HO

Sam Ho has been in Calvary Church for as long as I can remember. Very faithful, committed, and supportive in service and financially. Also his wife.

Who are you, CU, to even dare to suggest that he be removed as a member OF Calvary Church. What AUDACITY, what PRESUMTUOUSNESS. Have you ascended yourself to the position of the BOARD OF DEACONS???

To follow the Chinese saying. I am certain Sam Ho has eaten more salt than you have eaten rice.

I DARE YOU TO SACK HIM !

Selective Termination of membership said...

Wow! Removing Sam Ho from church membership.

That means all those that stand up to speak in church during EGMs or AGMs will have their membership terminated, especially those who want to know the truth of whats is happening in CC.

Either way, I win and claim credit. said...

So everything was fine last night in Putra Stadium.

Next, they will claim credit for it. They will say that because they highlighted or exposed those so-called planned activities, TTG did not dare to carry out those activities.

sigh...

Looks they are in a world of their own. Dont think they really know the TTG well.

I think they are very fearful of TTG in exposing too much to the church.

kick out? said...

to sum it up, CU creators are a bunch of evil, baseless, disruptive, corruptive, blind people. they are the cause of the divisive spirit hovering amongst the church. if anything, they should be the ones kicked out of calvary.

Johanis said...

CU
It is sad that you do not know Sam Ho. He was a Deacon, served as Sunday School Teacher,
Men’s Fellowship, CSAF, for many, many years. To call for him to be removed as a member of the Church is to insult one of the most loyal, faithful and longest serving members of the Church. If he deserves to be sacked then all of us deserve to be sacked first. Except for PG1, PG2 & BOD. These are extremely special people. They are ALWAYS RIGHT even when they are wrong. Then CC will have one Senior Pastor and 7 blind mice.

Professional Antagonists said...

Dear Calvarites,

If you wish to read the CU blog, please pray first and ask for God's peace before you read it.

My conclusion of the author or authors or group is THEY ARE PROFESSIONAL ANTAGONISTS.

Discernment Needed said...

This is the Easter season ... let's talk about Jesus and focus on Him and Him alone ...

He is Risen! Jesus is Lord! Hallelujah! God Bless!

sincere or not? said...

heard PG apologized during this Sunday's easter service? So does this mean he will be reinstating Dr Lum and apologizing personally to Dr Lum for sacking him??

Indignant said...

I heard that PG1 apologised during the Easter Sunday morning worship! Was he sincere or was he just trying to save his neck with a half-hearted apology? Definitely he knows his days as SP of CC are numbered - he knows the majority of the CC people want him & his family to go!

He said sorry but this does not mean he is repentant.

To be truly repentant, he will have to 'bear the fruit of repentance! Some of the fruit I am waiting to see are:

- Dr. LUM MUST be re-instated IMMEDIATELY with a full apology from PG1, PG2, APs, BOD & the kangaroo-court panel!
- a full, public apology to the TTG & to the members of CC
- immediate release of the financial reports of all the extended ministries
- a full declaration of all the assets of the Guneratnams
- his son must step down as church executive administrator
- all the monies that he & his wife had absconded through the years must be returned to the church
- Extended Ministries must be de-registered from being the private companies of the Guneratnam family members
- the salaries of PG's son, daughter, son-in-law, daughter-in-law must be revealed to the church at large and changes to be made if they are over-paid
- all those leaders who were removed from leadership since last year have to be re-installed personally by PG1 & PG2, with a full, public apology from PG1, PG2, APs, & the BOD
- a public apology advertised in the newspapers (at his own expense) to the Church of the Lord Jesus Chrst for causing such embarrasment & shame to the Body of Christ in the nation
- etc, etc., the list goes on!

Anonymous said...

ypu guys are crazy, a bunch of idiots.

Abang said...

First and foremost, Pastor G, did not use the word, 'apology'. Basically, he started the service by expression as such--congregation, I had served you all for more than 30 years, if I have done anything wrong, have hurt any of you, I ask you to forgive me.

He did not say I ask you to forgive me of 'what' I have done-- to you to be more specific. He also said that I have no intention to hurt you and I know I am forgiven by God, that's why I can still so openly come up here to preach...He aslo said-- My only desire is to please God.

Anyway, there was not much of response of handclaps. We were however waiting for him to continue to be more 'sincere' by expressing his 'true confession' but none...alas.. pray that God will help us to discern his 'sincerity'. At this level, there is still a long-long way to go.

Birthday gift said...

Things are obviously getting hot with SP & family with the IRB on their back now. Their "If I have offended anyone..." apology is like a kid when caught says sorry. Just last Saturday at the EGM within the family of God, we saw his true colors coming out, now in front of the public, he put up this show. Why? Immediately after his sorry act, he asked for Collection of money for CCC. He will use every oportunity to get money out of our pockets into his.

I heard he got a very large Birthday gift from the church last year - amount equivalent to his age- XXk. Must get the auditors to check on this also.

Every year the church give him special "gifts" for all kinds of occassions - I also will apologise even 1000 times to be able to stay on as the SP.

The 2 jumping frogs--where to hide you now? said...

Yeap.. 2 nights of services, 1 morning of Easter--I did not see any commotion from TTG...

I am now calling the 2 jumping frogs--CU/CK to apologize to TTG and concerned members. They were instead stung by the mosqutoes. The 2 hungry frogs, where to hide both of you now??

Sore and hurting said...

"I have served you all for more than 30 years..."?

It should be translated as,

"I have squeezed you dry for more than 30 years, and I hope to continue to do so for another 30 years..."!

or,

"You and your generous contributions of money have served me well for more than 30 years, but I am not satisfied, as I intend to stay on to be served by you [& your next generation - viz. the love offering from the youths at youth camp] for the next 30 years"!

PG supporters are wicked said...

Anonymous 3.39pm - Wow, I'm impressed..u must be one of the supporters of Prince Guneratnam. Sounds like it...since u are goong around calling ppl crazy and idiots. very christian like, I wonder if u are one of the cast and crew acting in Easter? Better pray God doesn't strike u down with lightning!

RC2 said...

May the Lord have mercy upon your souls, you bunch of ingrates

Always grateful to God said...

Dear Heavenly Father,

Thank you for dying for our sins and for Easter where you give us new hope. We are always grateful to you Lord for what you have done for us.

It is unfair of RC2 to call us "ingrates" but you know him/her better than we do. At 8.15pm where ppl are worshipping God in stadium and praying for unsaved souls, he/she is here calling others names.

We are always grateful to you for you are a good God and you are merciful to us all. Thank you Lord. Amen.

how come PG supporters don't even go putra stadium? said...

agree with Always grateful to God. RC2 can't even be bothered to go to Putra Stadium for the Easter presentation and instead, rather resort to name callings. shame shame on you, RC2..so childish and silly.

Do Something Now said...

Dear Calvarites,

SP's sponsored or pro-CK and CU blogs revealed their true intent. Try to tarnish the TTG members and leaders. Hope they don't live in their own imagination.

These people make use of the church to perpetuate their position and exclude good people who can treaten them and their positions.

Open your eyes. HM, KC and others have nothing to gain. But, SP and family have great stake in the church through CIM, bookshop, CLM and CCM. Greater cash cow are the present Calvary Education Resource Centre and the future Calvary Convention Centre. Some deacons proven to have "vested interest"

If Calvarites don't do something now to stop the abuse, they will be disappointed later.

Here is the announcement: said...

Church AGM

Place : Calvary Church, DH
Date : 19th June,2009
Time : 7 pm

Do check out the notice board from church, it was posted up on 12 April. Someone went to check already. Announcement was made after the Bukit Jalil Morning Service.

P. Chin said...

I am quite new in calvary church, but aware of some problems in the church, I went to Putra Stadium yesterday morning, I heard Pastor Prince mentioned that he had served the church for more than 30 years and he said if I had hurt you or offended you, I ask you to forgive me..I am puzzled as to what had he done in the past and who had he hurt...?

I learned from the bible that said when you had wrong someone, go to the person and seek forgiveness..but how come the pastor just announced it like that...? then why didnt he follow the bible to go to the person instead?

Frank said...

Yes, I agreed with 'the 2 jumping frogs...", as a supporter for t.t.g. , I too am calling for CU/CK ( 2 jumping and hungry frogs) to apologize to KC, HM, Winslow, Siew Chuan and other concerned members for their 'serious and malicious allegations' against them for speaking up and writing in and also the serious allegation on the 3 nights of 'easter action as alleged'.

It had now proven at the EGM, how rude and unruly CU/CK and supporter's behaviour are, it had also proven how evil they had cursed the t.t.g. in their blogs, it had also proven how malicious they are in their announcement in the church, it had also proven how 'serious allegations' of action that will happened at stadium but did not at the stadium...and the list goes on..


I am now asking and demanding that they should apologize and withdrwal all their 'serious and malicious allegation' before they even talk about reconciliation.

Some sort of disciplince action should be taken against CU/CK administrator and creator as well as their member too.

Tun Daniel said...

PG1 ASKING FOR FORGIVENESS SHOULD BE ITEMISED

If PG1 is asking for forgiveness, then it is the right direction to go. However, may I encourage him to go a little further so that there is a complete resolution of all issues once and for all. Firstly, his plea for forgiveness is not clear. He said, “If I have HURT YOU or OFFENDED you, I ask you to forgive me.” I notice that in his statement he DID NOT confess to any particular WRONG. He is just saying IF I have HURT or OFFENDED YOU please forgive me. It could also mean I did the RIGHT THING, but if, in so doing the right thing, I hurt and offended you then please forgive me.

In the last EGM, he hurt and offended many people, including Dr. Lum and Dr. Lalitha. Is he asking forgiveness from ALL by a short public statement? What about those he was rude to but did not hurt? Who is he including of excluding from the general statemtent? Is Dr. Lum included? I think it is better if he asks for forgiveness from each one individually.

In the past over 30 years of service in Calvary Church he has hurt many people. Is he asking forgiveness from them too without having to meet anybody even if they are still around?

If the asking of forgiveness by PG1 is going to carry any significance:

1.It should be done in an EGM before the actual members of the Church, not before a general crowd like in Bukit Jalil.

2.The wrong should be clearly itemised because each wrong has to be dealt with separately and not glossed over as a general whole e.g I was wrong in transferring money from the Missions account to the CIM, I was wrong in evaluating the work performance of my wife and children etc. Otherwise who is to know what is he referring to?

3.A written copy should be given to the BOD and one to the Church Lawyer.

4.Then, PG1should ask for forgiveness from the members of the Church.

5.Finally, the Secretary of the BOD should pray on behalf of the congregation to forgive PG1 after a vote is taken.

6.Any illegalities will still continue to be settled in law courts because the church must understand that no member in the church is above the law of the land.

7.PG1 should resign as Senior Pastor of Calvary Church for unscriptural conduct.

Will CU/CK apologize first? said...

PG’s asking for forgiveness can mean either of this:-

1. He is genuinely repentant for his sins and his behaviour and would like to reconcile with all his church members. If this is the case, he should then:-
(a) reinstate Dr Lum and apologize to Dr Lum and his family for the hurts he has caused them
(b) show us ALL accounts of the extended ministries,
(c) be more transparent on his and his family’s salaries and benefits
(d) engage several TTG members to be part of the constitution review committee so that a more balance constitution can be in place.

2. He wants to take the easy route and do a ‘mass apology’ to everyone so that people will take pity on him and forget about all the wrongs/sins he has done and so that he can continue being Senior Pastor of Calvary Church and his family can continue taking leadership positions in the church and earn big bucks. He will then continue flying business class wherever he goes, the extended ministries accounts will continue to be a secret and owned by his family members, his love offerings from overseas trips will continue to not be declared etc etc. By doing a mass apology, he hopes that everyone will forgive and forget and close one eye towards his questionable integrity.

Let’s see which route he takes.

Furthermore, I see that the alternate blog has asked for all blogs to be closed down since PG has ‘apologized’. What I want to know is whether CU and CK will also humble themselves and apologize to TTG and CT for blindly accusing them, calling them names, putting up cartoons abt TTG and spreading lies about TTG. If they don’t, I don’t think these anonymous people even have the RIGHT to order CT around. Firstly, reveal who you are, creators of the alternate blog. Then, do a public apology to TTG and CT. Then, only then, can a reconciliation process take place.

Frank said...

Just to add on to my earlier comment: the CU/CK are accusing the t.t.g. with names like, tipu-tipu gang, antagonist, devil, you and your family will ....lies, planning for 'easter action', the divider, the prince of the underworld, the killer of the christian brotherhood, the ungrateful, leave the church, go start your own church ( this was commented even by one deconness on the face of one concerned member, and the list goes on...can somebody else add on for me?

Web Visitor said...

I searched thru Google and here it is:

Calvary Life Ministry (CLM)

The SMARTSTART Premarriage course organised by CLM and joint venture with Lembaga Penduduk dan Pembangunan Keluarga Negara ( LPPKN )?

May I know:
1. in the application form, this course appeared to open to the public, correct?

2. Per couple, pre-registration fee is RM50, and the cheque is payable to : CALVARY LIFE MINISTRIES, so why in this case? it is an income, do you pay income tax for that? Did the money collected pay back to Calvary church or kept by CLM?

3.Why when this is a course open to public yet using the Damansara Perdana as a venue for the course? Who would pay for the rental and air-cond? Why then calvary church still pay annual financial support to CLM when it is income generating?

4. CLM Director is Ms Pam Guneratnam? so, she is daughter of Senior Pastor? What is the rational by calling this an extended ministry? something like Calvary International Ministries (CIM) where SP is the President and operated in the same manner, supply of finances come from mission but income are not plough back to the mission.

Member said...

Lets recall : ( But not all were accepted)

1. TTG called for constitution review one year ago. Current constitution is outdated and questionable.

2. TTG called for transparency and truth and good governance in overall church financial practices, adminstrative procedure, respect and to remove the 'used and discard' policies.

3. TTG ask the leadership to love the sheep but not to weep the sheep from the pulpit.( repeated sermons that wept)

4. TTG ask for fair and gracious Chair for AGM and EGM-- ( only the EGM on August 15,2008 chaired by Pr Guynes but he was not fair too--cut off member who questioned and cut off the mic)

( to be continued)

Discernment Needed said...

Dear TTG Group,

Sometimes when I read the comments coming through which are supportive of what you guys are trying to do, I get abit discourage since many of these comments demonstrate a lack of sincerity for healing and reconciliation. From what it is written, I cannot help but conclude that all people are shouting ... "Do it my/our way or NO way!" ... "Only I/we know what is best for everyone!" ... "If everyone would simply listen and do what I/we tell them, everything will be okay ...!" ... "Here's a list of my/our demands!" ... perhaps I don't fully understand the hurt and disappointment that they have experienced and felt ... but there is always 2 sides to a story but more importantly did not God promise newness each day? A fresh experience through the Holy Spirit so that we can focus on Jesus and do His will? ... I really don't mean to be simplistic and casual ... but there is a time when we must say "let's look forward instead dwelling in the past ..."

I sincerely hope and believe you are not reflective of the sentiment and position taken by many of those who blog here ... I hope you are are people, Christians, members of the Body, who are willing to seek for the middle ground ... for the sake of reconciliation, healing and moving forward ...

Would appreciate if you would take a deeper look on what I have suggested ...

God Bless!

Johanis said...

WE ARE MOST READY TO FORGIVE PG1.....but he has to face some realities.

First, please define what forgiveness is PG1 asking for. How do you forgive someone for something which we do not know?

The middle road sounds inviting but the middle road can have complications. Let study a few scenarios.

Scenario 1:
A back-slided Christian robber steals RM100 from you. The police corners him. He says, “Please forgive me if I have offended you.”
You say, “ I forgive you.”
Now what exactly are you forgiving? That he offended you? Or he stole RM100 from you?
What should be the right thing to do?

Scenario 2:
“Christian” robber steals RM100 from you. The police corners him. He says, “Please forgive me if I have offended you.”
You say, “ Lets take the middle road. I take RM 50 you take RM 50”

That’s fine if you want to lose RM 50. But then, will the robber be charged in court and go to jail or not? That, unfortunately, is not within your authority. The robber has to be dealt with by the police according to the law of the land.

Jesus said, “ I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father but by me.”
There is no compromise here. Jesus is THE ONLY way. We have to accept this truth.

The Hindus say there may ways to reach the happy ending. A nice compromise? Can we take it?

The Truth:
PG1 has gone astray because of the love of money, power and greed. Because of this he has committed a number of illegalities. If he is sincere about asking for forgiveness, then he has to list what he has done wrong and the congregation can then forgive him. If he has committed any illegality he has to settle it with the law. Of course we hope that the Law will be very gracious to him. But If he is found guilty, then, under the constitution, he has to resign as the Senior Pastor because of unscriptural conduct. But if PG1 is found not to be guilty then things remain in status quo.

But, of course, we can always try to find a middle road if one is available.

SML said...

BEWARE: PLAYING TO THE GALLERY

1. Very glad ‘Indignant’ & ‘Tun Daniel’ said it all so clearly about SP’s vague and gloss over apology.

Also, many have spotted his pre-qualified statement:“IF” I have wrong or hurt you…..” Surely, as a Sr.Pastor no less, he would know even in a Sinner’s prayer it is “ Dear Lord I am a sinner” not “Lord,IF, I am a sinner please forgive me!”

And the Congregation in the Church would also recall how SP always asked the individual to be SPECIFIC with his/her sins confessing them.
(Yet another example, SP is not a doer of what he preaches)

2. And P.Chin was spot-on too about what the Bible has to say about seeking Forgiveness.


SP has showed time and again he is INSINCERE. (Because his true self was revealed at the EGM, and he discovered the concerned Members had enough of his SLY ways he now uses his ultimate "forgiveness" card.

And unfortunately, many are hook wink by this seemingly ‘touching’ gesture as a ‘first move’ of reconciliation.

Deeply regrettable, the fact remain he is still deceitful in his ways and trying to manoeuvre his ways to retain his position, rather than take total RESPONSIBILTY and stand ACCOUNTABLE for the division of the church and dispute he & BOD have brought to the church. An Honourable person will admit, repent and then step down. Instead, it is a case of self preservation at all cost and above all else. Oh, what wretched man!

Those, including ‘Discernment Needed’, need to access all the facts before them, and not be so easily taken-in by ‘outward’ gestures! And used such as persuasive ‘rationale’ to continue to lead many astray in confusion and diverting from the real issues.

The crux of the Crisis maybe summed-up as:
1. ABUSE of POWER & POSITION ( leading to all the
unrighteous acts )
2. STAYING in OFFICE by UNCONSTITUTIONAL
means

Until SP & BOD are willing to admit and identify these to be resolved, all other efforts by "loyalist" and 'peace makers' & 'Amens', though with good intention, and wonderfully sounding, are plain superficial and feeble attempts. (Including those ill-thought through and piece-meal Financial resolutions and laughable "moving forward" committees)

What is seen is continued rhetoric, denial, and showmanship, and politicking, to our sadness.

But what is absolutely needed as the 1st step are
True courage, sincerity and genuine resolve to confront the root of the crisis.

do what's needed first said...

Hi Discernment Needed, know that you are sincerely wanting a reconciliation and healing process. So do I. but don't you think it is fair to ask the 2 blogs - CU and CK to extend an official apology to CT and TTG?

Betulbetul said...

To : Discernment needed

Its time to get real and you appeared to be very emotional..

Please reveal your real and christian identity to Calvary Today before you add more salt to the wound. Let me tell you, I am not at all the adminstrator or CT.
You had been spending whole day and many days writing and commenting. Please then put in your sincere and genuine effort to reveal yourself..

Thank you.

Sentinel said...

If his apology is sincere and he is truly repentant, by all means, there should be reconciliation.

Reconciliation, however, is not to be done HIS (PG1's) way! It should be scriptural.

By just saying a general apology, does he think he can get away with all the wrongs that he, his wife & his family have done?

Shouldn't there be restitution?

Shouldn't they bear the fruit of repentance, as outlined [above] by some of us?

CALVARY TODAY said...

Dear Discernment Needed,

Thanks for your suggestions. The TTG brothers and sisters have been notified of your proposals and will discuss this further. As we have said earlier, CT does not belong to an individual person but a group of Concerned Members.

Regarding your reconciliation plan, if you have followed the events that started a few years ago with Bro HM’s letter to the BOD and subsequent letters by various individuals to the BOD also, it is quite evident that the Group has been always on the forefront in trying to initiate dialogues with the Church leadership. Therefore, any step taken by the Church leadership to meet in the middle ground is welcomed provided it must be on fair grounds for all.

We do appreciate your effort and we do hope that what you have put here, you will also convey to the BOD & SP. We are also listening to the other church members who have blogged their views here and will publish all Comments that are within the earlier stipulated CT guidelines although what they have expressed may not be TTG’s view.

God bless.

Joseph said...

Discernment needed...

I am sincerely very sorry to tell you but you know very little about PG1. The focus should not have been that since Pastor has asked for forgiveness lets initiate a reconciliation. The question that should have been asked is what was his objective for asking for forgiveness. He has tried this stunt many times over the years.

So Discernment needed......., discernment is what you really need.

Discernment Needed said...

Dear Calvary Today ... thank you for your reply ... much appreciated ... and yes, I intend to convey what I have posted to the church leadership ... God Bless!

True Repentance said...

God's Basis for Restoration

Psalm 51:10-17

10. Create in me a clean heart, O God,
and renew a steadfast spirit within me.

11. Do not cast me from Your presence or take Your Holy Spirit from me.

12. Restore to me the joy of your salvation and grant me a willing spirit to sustain me.

13. Then I will teach transgressors your ways,
and sinners will turn back to You.

15. O Lord, open my lips,
and my mouth will declare Your praise.

16. You do not delight in sacrifice or I would bring it;
You do not take pleasure in burnt offerings.

17. The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit;
a broken and contrite heart,
O God, You do not despise."

Before we can talk of God's restoration and reconciliation within the Body there has to be sincere confession and true repentance...

God requiries us to have a broken spirit and a contrite
heart. That is how we come before God and we believe that is how our leaders should also demonstrate to the sheep. So we are waiting for them to lead the way....

It is time to call for genuine confession and true repentance ... then we can move to reconciliation and restoration.

With repentance there should also be restitution as in the story of Zaccheaus.

Common Sense said...

I think he is just trying desperately to hang on to his post as SP so that he & his family can continue to earn their big, fat salaries & enjoy their luxurious, indulgent lifestyles!

After all, which other church can pay their pastors & staff so well?

Through these 30-over years PG1 & POG2 have manipulated the BOD & the HR man to keep increasing their salaries until it has reached this unbelievable state!

All other pastors from other churches react with shock & disbelief when they hear how much PG1 & PG2 are earning every month, plus 3 months' bonus!

Even if they stay on, their salaries & perks should be revised & scaled down to a more realistic level!

Third Party said...

SP has initiated that first step towards reconciliation and unity. Let's agree to down tools and begin to listen to what the other person has to say. We need to take this opportunity that God has given to start closing the great divide. Let's remember that this is what the Cross of Christ stands for. He is our Reconciler with our heavenly Father. This is the very reason why we celebrated Easter just yesterday.

I know that this is what Calvarites want: healing and restoration. We do not want a church split. We do not want rumour and gossip to destroy whatever strained relationships there are. We want a church that can demonstrate sacrificial love and forgiveness towards one another so that we can tell the world that Jesus can heal any breach.

BOD and TTG: for the sake of Christ and his body, step up to the plate.

Indignant said...

Shouldn't the offending party, PG1 & PG2, take the initiative by doing something tangible instead of just making a general statement of apology?

Why are you,Third Party, putting the blame or pressure on TTG & even BOD (which for the most part, has come under the control of PG)?

It has always been PG1 and PG2 who were not willing to change and repent. Now they are scared because the IRB is hot on their heels, so PG1 makes an insincere statement of apology!

Not guilty before God said...

By the way, did SP also said that as far as he is concerned he is 'clean' before God, thats why he could still preach without any guilt? If that is the case, then he thinks that he has done nothing wrong. So what is there to forgive if he thinks has not sinned before God?

Not fully convinced said...

To Discernment needed,

Why do you feel so easily discouraged just because of some comments expressed on this blog about your most recent ideas/suggestions.

Anybody will be more discouraged and shocked with the postings carried on CK/CU quoted(in part) by FRANK - April 13 2.45pm. What deviousness deceit and subterfuge to mis-inform Calvarites of "cooked-up" discoveries of plan to disrupt the Easter events at Bukit Jalil.

PG's actions over the past many months before the August, 2008 AGM, 04 April EGM and qualified expression of apologies have consistently demonstrated to all of his insincerity, bunglings and hardened stance. Why must there be so many "ifs" and "buts" in making a simple statement of apology. Don't tell me that some of you are less discerning than many others. And why mentored so many to act as bouncers, post-men and spokemen.

I am not totally convinced of PG's sincerity. The first step for PG to take is to initiate a call to Dr. Lum and to apologise to him and his spouse for the pain, hurt and self-esteem caused to family over the termination.

Make this first move; this first move will bode well forming the foundation for seeking healing and reconcialtion.

Finally, if you wish to act as his spokeperson, the least you should do is to identify yourself as a token of your own sincerity in order to win the confidence from as many others as possible.

one of the younger members said...

hi Discerment Needed

don be too happy yet ...i am not in agreement with the manner you appeal to this whole episode of reconciliation ...

SP still has a long-long way to go, meanwhile i urge You to pray and do not twist ur word around.

many had expressed the right way of true christian confession the whole day today. be mindful, i read ur terms earlier, it is one sided, u r still in charge seemingly with all those terms...

please tell us your name thru the blog.. be honest, don run ard de bush, many had called u to reveal ur identity...

JSK said...

To Third Party,

I hope you were at the EGM last week. The auditors confirmed what Dr Lum said is true although they did not put it so directly but cover up with alot of jargon like got vouchers and got approvals and in line with church benefits only problem not told to other church staff that's all.

Please don't say "We do not want rumour and gossip....." What is already proven by the auditors that money and benefits were given to SP & family ONLY is not rumour and gossip. Please be careful what you say and don't be SP's parrot in trying to accuse ppl of saying rumour and gossip. Thank you.

Apostle said...

ROOT PROBLEM HAS TO BE REMOVED FIRST

King Saul. The ROOT PROBLEM was he was jealous of David taking over as the next king. King Saul could not rest until he killed David. So he hounded David. There were two armies DIVIDED between King Saul & David. Finally King Saul & Jonathan were killed during a battle. David no longer had an enemy. He was declared king and eventually the kingdom was REUNITED. BUT this was only possible after the REMOVAL of the ROOT PROBLEM.

Right Actions said...

Hi Calvarites!

CT Blog is very much needed as a good forum platform. Without it, we will go back to the dark ages when church leadership can cover up many dark practices.

Without the blog and courageous souls like Dr Lum and many TTG members like WHM, KC, Siew Chyuan and Lisa, we will never know the many secrets of SP. I salute you!

In fact, SP would not hesitate to sack any pastor who is caught doing the same things like him. Now, he should sack himself. If he can do that, I will respect him.

Please don't fall into the trap of SP's so called seeking forgiveness and discernment needed's so called good intention. Only time will tell. There are enough 'camelons' who abuse their positions and power.

TTG, press on till constitution is reviewed, truth committee formed,extended ministries back to church, TTG restored back and church leadership revamped.

Anonymous said...

Time to forgive. Amen.

Third Party said...

To JSK,
It is very easy to press your buttons, isn't it? I was not referring to the egm at all in my comment, but simply to the general atmosphere of mistrust and suspicion that is present in CC. I am nobody's parrot, thank you. And I am not the sort of person to add fuel to an already very explosive situation. In such tense circumstances, we all need to stop jumping to conclusions.

KKB said...

Sometimes (if not, most of the time), people in the higher rungs have a difficulty to apologize. If that were the case for SP, another way to demonstrate the sincerity is to allow the resolutions put forth by TTG to be tabled in the AGM. Or, TTG representation in whatever task forces that BOD decide to come up with. I am sure with TTG representation in the task forces, the end result can be achieved. At least, other members will also be convinced that SP is walking the talk.

Dear Discernment Needed, would you not agree with me that actions speak louder than words? When you communicate with the BOD and/or SP, can you convey my suggestions above? Just like you, I choose not to reveal my identify to BOD and/or SP.

James said...

PG1’s plea for forgiveness.....

I do not think it was an attempt by PG1 to solicit for reconciliation. If he was serious about it he would have gotten his secretary to ring up HM, KC & TLF directly instead of throwing it rhetorically into the air before people many of whom are not Calvarites and for whom this gesture was totally irrelevant. And if PG1 needed a 3rd party to help he would have also call them directly. He never works at random with people he barely knows. So I think we should just consider this incident just a misinterpretation and not let it take too much of our precious time

Be Real and Sincere said...

To: Discernment Needed,

If you want to be peace maker please be real and reveal your identity. You don't need to talk so much until you are willing to be real, sincere and open yourself.

You call out names from TTG group so it is time you come out in the open.

The peace maker has to be impartial so you can't be setting the ground rules according to PG and BOD's wishes. That is loop sided and not fair play at all. Besides you need to identify the root causes of the crisis, don't just ask TTG group to accept so called apology from PG when the root issues are not addressed.

There has to be sincere confession and true repentance. If not, it is just acting to members' and worshippers' emotions! The response from the audience has been one of strange wonder and even raise further questions! What has been happening? Why asking for forgiveness??

Otherwise it will be another big show again. There has been enough of showmanship from PG and blind condonation by associate pastors and BOD already.

We got to be real and sincere to be true to be our calling as God's children.

Others are watching and waiting.... see how long this crisis is going to drag?

What Margaret Seaward said.. said...

Margarent Seaward recently preached on Sunday morning service, and she said to forgive is easy for her but to forget is not easy? huh, what say you?

Bible said to forgive is to REPENT.
So, what is repentance? God, if..if..if.. i done wrong forgive me or God, I have done wrong, please forgive me.

or, brother, i have wrong you for causing you hurt, please forgive me or brother, if..if..if.. i have wrong you, please forgive me, so, which one is asking for forgiveness le??

JSK said...

To Third Party again,

I dunno what you mean by press button here becoz you and I don't even know each other. So I have nothing against you except that for many many many many times, SP's die hard fans, say something like this, "We do not want rumour and gossip...."

I think it is the FACTS that pressed your button. The auditors already confirmed that SP & family DID SPEND THE CHURCH MONEY ON THEMSELVES with only some of the BOD knowing. This has become FACT! THE TRUTH! so it is not rumour and gossip. Nobody jump to no conclusion. The auditors told us that money was spent on SP's family and that of course is adding fuel to their already bad situation. Sorry fren, as long as SP cannot stop ......, church members cannot stop talking about the truth. I am working now so got to go. No more replies from me coz got to go file my Income Tax Forms.

Not Rational Enough.. said...

It seems funny to see people in pseudonames trying to ask Discernment Needed to reveal his identity. A little hypocritical I suppose.

zoophobia said...

i just hope none of you are like the pharisees of Jesus's time, getting Jesus crucified... someone who did nothing wrong... i'm not saying PG is clean but i hope there is no bias in your heart. i don't want to crucify the righteous, do you?

well, whether PG is wrong or not, or TTG is true or not, i just felt it is not right to be rude and ungracious in church, a Holy and sacred place...

Not totally convinced said...

Hello Discernment Needed,

Suddenly you are on silent mode.

Do you wish to let us know your own identity as the spokeperson for PG in order to show us you are serious??

Messiah said...

LETS NOT JUMP THE GUN !!

PG1 plea for forgiveness is a very limited one.
The probable statement that was made by PG1:
“If I have HURT YOU or OFFENDED you, I ask you to forgive me”.

The possible implications:
1.Since he asked for forgiveness he is admitting that he has done wrong.
2.The wrong is confined to hurting and offending people. Who and when we do not know.
3.His objective probably is to ensure that God will not withdraw the anointing needed for the preaching.

THERE'S NOTHING MORE THAN THAT:
1.Nothing about reconciliation
2.Nothing about wanting to correct any other wrongs

SO LETS NOT JUMP THE GUN !!

Wrong Comparison said...

To: Not Rational Enough...

You are also the same kind? The pot calling the kettle black? So who is rational or hypocritical now?

To: zoophobia

Who is crucifying the righteous? There is none righteous apart from JESUS Christ? How can you draw parallels here? That is ridiculous! We can't compare the person here with JESUS!

Wrong Comparison...We are not dumb or blind sheep!

Double agree said...

I agree with zoophobia, It was really not right of SP to be rude and ungracious in church. Can you imagine the senior pastor of the church ordering members to sit down and then ordering mikes to be offed is really rude. As a leader he must control himself even though he may be angry with the members for talking too much. Members got questions must ask him. If not then ask who? So he must be patient with people especially in church standing under the big cross on top of his head. Not easy to be a leader I tell you. Always must control yourself.

not totally convinced said...

To "Not rational enough"

Mr/Ms Discernment needed offered his/her services as the spokesperson voluntarily as proxy of PG.

Therefore, it is not only RATIONAL but also appropriate to refrain from writing under a pseudonym when taking this role for creditiblity sake.

If not, just blog on without disclosure

NO TURNING BACK said...

WHERE DOES THE BUCK STOP???

It's amazing after all that have been revealed about SP/SAP's & BOD's abuse of Power & position and all the cover-up of unrighteous acts in the House of God, and
the church has been thrown into disrepute,
Yet,
NONE of them take RESPONSIBILITY!
(Yet they hold BIG titles & had it EASY for decades,

It's most SHAMEFUL. ( they have neither Honour nor self respect, from they way they Cling on to their POSITIONS, and try PASSING the BUCK to Concern members and Dr Lum, and whoever, they can point to!

Discernment Needed said...

I remember the early days when I first started to engage in this blog I made some observations then which is still true today ... how sad ...

And what were some of my observations?

Simply that when substantive matters are raised which require perhaps some objectivity and thought, the common reaction by SOME of the bloggers becomes personal and frequently when comments are not what they want to hear, they immediately say that the person is "working in hand" with SP or the BOD or he/she is the "spokesman/woman" of SP, effort will be made to speculate who this person is, and so on .... please note that I said SOME bloggers ...

In this respect I am so glad to read Calvary Today's comments of 13th April, 7:37pm ....

Anyway, if you actually read my suggestion, I did not say or even attempt to say that just because SP asked for forgiveness and extended a hand for moving forward, hey presto ... everything is now okay and well! No, its just an initial step and I had proposed specific actions which can be done to demonstrate (on both sides of the "divide") sincerity ... the roadmap will obviously include actions to be taken (by both sides of the "divide") which are intended to find the middle ground, demonstrate willingness to work together for the sake of the Body and more importantly agree to the changes that must take place within our structure and how we do things going forward. Are there things SP and the BOD (and the TTG Group) must do? Of course! That's where the effort to find the middle ground becomes important ... it is only through our sincere attempts to find resolution around a common table that we can begin to see and experience the reconciliation and healing which we all desire and want ...

I would also like to touch on the "if" which some of the bloggers majored in vis-a-vis SP's plea for forgiveness ...

The logic is simple .... ask yourself ... did SP hurt you and wronged you? ... if the answer is yes, then his plea IS for your forgiveness, in this case, "if" no longer applies ... it BECOMES a plea for forgiveness ... however if the answer is no (i.e. SP has not hurt nor wrong you), then his plea for your forgiveness does not apply ...

And please, for this, there is no need to accuse me of defending SP or being his spokesman/woman ... I am not ...

Once again, I hope the Board of Deacons (including the Pastorate) and the TTG will indeed take the courageous step at this juncture of the church's life and start talking to each other ... this is, after all, the Church of our Lord Jesus Christ! God Bless!

Not Rational Enough.. said...

To Wrong Comparison,

I didn't ask you to put your real name right? That's my difference. I didn't say it was wrong to use a pseudoname.

ready to meet up said...

Dear Discenrnment Needed,
I could not but agreeable with you about the observations made on some of the bloggers who are rather protective of their views on SP and/or BOD.

But one thing I must concur though is the request made to you to reveal your identity. I think your views and calls will certainly gain greater respect and acceptability if you could kindly reveal yourself to all.

God bless your effort and sincerity.

latte said...

the alternate blogs are yet again throwing their weight around, this time to simply accuse people of being involved in creating and maintaining Calvary Today. Pls get yr facts right, alternate blog, before u continue framing innocent people.

your response? said...

Dear Discernment Needed, can we have your response on CU's announcement in their blog last week about TTG planning to cause some trouble during the Easter presentations?

GGU said...

hi, discernment needed

the more i see your complaint and your names here, the more distateful it had become. Stop trying to 'instruct' t.t.g. what to do or the commenters in this column what to write or said. This blog belongs to calvary today, if you are not in the same boat, it is difficult for you to ride together.

if SP/bod want any reconciliation, they should initiate, not you, unless you are one of the deacons, but none of our deacons names is discernment need, and none of our pastors names is discernment needed too.

can i also voice my opinion to CT? I dont see the need to entertain discernment needed, despite the repeated call for him/her to reveal the true identity, he/she still so 'cowardly' hiding, but speak very loudly while hiding--shame.

This is how calvary church is operating, claimed all loud names, eg: fountain head church, bible reading church, mission giving church, but all these dont appeared to be true in practice.

Anonymous said...

What is the point of mentioning so much about the birth of Jesus yet not following Jesus' footsteps of forgiving your Christian brothers?

Teka-Teki said...

wow..CU trying very hard to know who are the administrator of CT, very funny hor.. so, they tested with different names and different activities of the individual..eg HM always sign-off, KC, Lisa, Winslow always have their name after the comment. And somemore what Joe Gerald, Vijay!

eeehhhh..CU, dont be like that lar.. be more sporting..don guess, teka-teki...

CT is a blog guarded and directed by the Angels le...

TTG supporters and concerned members and readers, don need to know who the administrator is, truly.. its the Angels..don kena trap by them, they are witch-hunting again...

IF,IF,IF,IF,IF,IF,IF,IF,IF,IF said...

If SP did not transfer RM800,000 to his personal ministry,
he does not need to ask for forgiveness.

If SP did not register the book shop under his wife's name,
he does not need to ask for forgiveness.

If SP did not transfer earthquake funds to his personal ministry,
he does not need to ask for forgiveness.

If SP did not sack Dr.Lum as a member of Calvary Church,
he does not need to ask for forgiveness.

If SP did not keep all the extended ministries account a secret,
he does not need to ask for forgiveness.

If SP did not conduct his family appraisal,
he does not need to ask for forgiveness.

If SP did not register himself at JC gym and request church to pay for it,
he does not need to ask for forgiveness.

If SP did not act as a dictater at the recent EGM,
he does not need to ask for forgiveness.

If SP did not put his feet on the table when he talked to staff,
he does not need to ask for forgiveness.

If SP did not tell half truths,
he does not need to ask for forgiveness.

If SP did not manipulate,
he does not need to ask for forgiveness.

If SP did not show he was so rude at EGM
he does not need to ask for forgiveness.

If SP has done no wrong,
Why ask for forgiveness??????

^ ^
* *
~~~

IF,IF,IF,IF,IF,IF,IF,IF,IF,IF,IF.

Johanis said...

LOVE & FORGIVENESS has their rightful place in the life of a Christian. To those who are parents. When your children do something wrong do you gloss over it? Well neither does God.
Heb 12:5 "My son, despise not the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when you are rebuked by Him;

Heb 12:6 for whom the Lord LOVES He chastens, and He scourges every son whom He receives."

Heb 12:7 ....for WHAT SON is he whom the father does not chasten?

Heb 12:8 But if you are without chastisement, of which all are partakers, then you are bastards and not sons.

Do we not love PG1? Then let there be proper disciplining. Many pastors have fallen before. They have all been disciplined. For example Jimmy Swaggart & James Baker (he went to Jail)

There is a saying:
Overtly strict parents bring up children who can't stand themselves.

INDULGENT parentS bring up children that people cannot stand.

disgusted said...

alternate blog wants to do the despicable thing of taking pictures of TTG and posting it on their blog. I think that just about sums up their true intentions...they are evil and from the devil, have no facts to proof their point so want to resort to humiliating ppl who stand up for truth. how disgusting

Objective no. 4 said...

Look at their objective no. 4 of CU.

It is stated " We will voice out any concerned issues in a matured and biblical way".

This is really a joke.

They are not raising concerned issues but rather attacking people who voiced out concerned issues. This is their benchmark or level of maturity.

Secondly the manner and langauge of their blog is anything by biblical.

Thirdly they spread lies, like announcing that TTG will cause trouble during the Easter Presentations.

I dont need to say more.

Picture? said...

we will sue them if they ever took any of our pictures and post it. Reason is simple, this is a known blog, the creator is known too, so not that difficult to sue, they post picutre of anyone without consent. we dare you do and post it!

We dont have to feel humiliated, afterall, most of us had been humiliated during the agm and egm anyway and also even being treated in a very hostile manner by the other side. what are they talking? love, grace, mercy???

Any surprise? said...

Those guys must think that christians and church members are fools. They really think that by splashing TTG's photos are going to scare them. Bro HM's picture is already in the Berita Calvary advertising the Seminars he is conducting soon. I have seen Bro KC's photo in the newspaper. I know that these guys are faithful contributors to many Christian organisations in Malaysia so they are actually pretty well known characters in the Christian circle. So what's the big surprise?

they are just being childish said...

yup,no big suprise nor will TTG be affected by it. It's more like it just shows how pitiful and desperate this alternate blog creators are.....they don't have anymore to say coz you can only go so far with lies and half truths...so they have to resort to doing this.so childish.

prosperity said...

Bakker has renounced his past teachings on prosperity theology, saying they were wrong.

In his 1996 book, I Was Wrong,
he admitted that the first time he actually read the Bible all the way through was in prison, and that it made him realize he had taken certain passages out of context - passages which he had used as "proof texts" to back up his prosperity teachings.

He wrote:

“ The more I studied the Bible, however, I had to admit that the prosperity message did not line up with the tenor of Scripture. My heart was crushed to think that I led so many people astray.

I was appalled that I could have been so wrong, and I was deeply grateful that God had not struck me dead as a false prophet!”

In 1998, Bakker released another book, Prosperity and the Coming Apocalypse, and, in 2000, he published The Refuge: The Joy of Christian Community in a Torn-Apart World.

Discernment Needed said...

your response? said...
Dear Discernment Needed, can we have your response on CU's announcement in their blog last week about TTG planning to cause some trouble during the Easter presentations?
___________________________________

The following were 3 of my posting at CU (you can check it out):

1. Discernment Needed said...
Dear CU ... I don't know where you got the information leading you to post the so-called plans of the TTG to disrupt the Easter Celebration/Programme at Bukit Jalil this weekend ... you had better take full responsibility if this turn out to be untrue or inaccurate ... since this may be reflective of just a few unspiritual Christians talking and not the "official" plans of the TTG ... like I said, if this is untrue or inaccurate, I am sorry to say that it is people like you who are contributing to the division within the Body ... or at best, you are certainly not thinking about reconciliation and restoration ... and that, grieves our Lord Jesus Christ ...
___________________________________

2. Discernment Needed said...
Calvary Today/TTG has clarified that the news of the so-called planned disruption by them at Bukit Jalil is baseless. Could I ask Calvary Unity to please re-assess the article on this matter and if it is indeed untrue or inaccurate, to remove it or at least clarify the matter.

In the meantime, Easter is all about our Lord Jesus Christ ... He is Risen ... Happy Easter & God Bless!
___________________________________

3. Discernment Needed said...
Dear Calvary Unit,

If your post is not true or inaccurate, don't you think by coming up with an "official" statement like what you did contributes to division instead of healing and reconciliation?

Perhaps you have heard of a few individuals (and I alluded to them as unspiritual Christians) who talked about wanting to do such and such a thing ... if this is so, then you should have qualified your article as such. I have no problem that you bring this to the members' attention so that we can take some necessary actions but what you say IS important. Like I mentioned in the latest posting - you should either remove or at least clarify the article since CT/TTG has come out to say that this is not what they are planning to do (as a group).

I have always maintain that some of the issues that the TTG is raising are legitmate matters to address but I have always spoken out against the baseless accusations and/or allegations they hurl at the church leadership (Board + Pastorate). And when the church leadership clarified the matter, I accept their explanation. As an example, I do not think there were any bad or evil intention in the church's giving of funds to CIM ... process-wise perhaps there could be better governance, that's all.

My position remains the same ... I am doing no different when I read your article ... just like it is mentioned that the CT/TTG should be careful of what they put up on their blog, the same would apply to the other blogs, don't you think so?

I admit I don't know all the "behind the scene" situations or happenings but with CT/TTG coming out with a denial of the so-called planned disruption which Calvary Unit has posted, there IS certainly a need for you to clarify.

I am so sorry that I have to go into these matters since I was the one who asked that all of us focus on Easter instead of all these issues for this period of time. You have my commitment that this will be my last post until after Easter.

In the meantime dear borthers & sisters in Christ ... Happy Easter & God Bless!
___________________________________

question said...

so, when it in fact turns out that what CU has published is untrue, did they give an apology to TTG for posting lies, Discernment Needed?

Did they also give an apology to spiky for wrongly accusing him of being the creator of CT?

If these people who created CU/CK are really sincere about 'unity' and 'peace', they would have done both of the above by now. But they haven't. enough said.

your response? said...

Discernment Needed, thank you for your response on the alleged disruption.

Cool down but be still! said...

Dear brothers and sisters,

We are granted many choices in live. Often we choose to forgo doing so. For example, what drink or what food would I order for lunch today... Such is the reaction we had on reading some of the posted comments and perhaps responded with comments which are unbecoming of a Christian. We are also tempted to read ill motivated articles and later suffer the consequence of disgust they brought. For example, why participate in the wrongs of the alternate blogs if you know for sure they are out to discredit truth? My choice is to blog here.

Let us therefore focus on the matters at hand. For example the AGM and many EGMs to come. And to focus on any genuine (not superficial, not make belief) attempts to move forward.

To Discernment Needed, you don't have to try to please men, just please God. I support the call that you reveal yourself. This is a one significant step to moving forward.

Saloam!

AWAKEN said...

STILL cant see the woods for the trees!

The view of "Discernment needed" concerning the transfer of Missions FUNds to CIM showed he is not so discerning after all, by saying "...I do not think there were any bad or evil intention in the church's giving of funds to CIM ... process-wise perhaps there could be better governance, that's all."

Any clear thinking individual would know for a fact there were breach of trust, abuse of power & positions by the parties involved-namely SP& SAP, Missions Director & BOD.

Goodness gracious! so, in his opinion only the process was wrong! so it is a case of the end justified the means? in other words, it's okay even if one steals/rob the church, in the name of "missions work" (in CIM's case, it was a disguise, bec in reality it was for personal travel for conferences this & that for personal benefits. Not forgetting CIM uses the church resources--staff to facilities,utilities etc, too.

It's exactly, why these people ( SP& SAP, Missions Director & BOD) are so blatant with their wrongful acts, when you have individual like "Discernment Needed' can't see no wrong even when it's all crystal clear.

Let's earnestly pray for the RIGHT discernment given by the Holy Sprit--who never will condone lies, deception & manipulation, and never can be misled by ways of the sly ones, no matter how they try.

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