Friday, September 3, 2010

Did AOG Malaysia Lie to the Court?

On 5 July 2010, the Kuala Lumpur High Court had allowed Assemblies of God’s (AOG) application to strike out the Originating Summons which cited them as the Third Defendant. This means that the Court agreed that the AOG is not a party to the case.


The 7 Plaintiffs, who are concerned members of Calvary Church, had included the AOG as the Third Defendant on the basis that the AOG is the supreme body of all the Assemblies of God churches in Malaysia including Calvary Church and as the supreme body, they ought to look after the welfare of the members of their member-churches.


All the concerned members of Calvary Church are naturally disappointed with the Court’s decision as they strongly hold to the belief that the AOG should take responsibility and intervene in the affairs of Calvary Church which has become a joke in the Christian community. The AOG’s act of applying to Court to strike out the Plaintiff’s inclusion of them as the Third Defendant is testament of their “couldn’t-care-less” attitude. The shame is on the AOG and their Executive Council members.


But what shocked the CT team were The Statements made by the AOG in their sworn Affidavits filed in Court. In their attempt to “wash their hands off” the matter, they resorted to twisted interpretation of their Constitution and telling half-truths.


The following are some of what the AOG has stated in their sworn Affidavits:-


1. AOG not responsible for Calvary Church


AOG claimed that Calvary Church is only affiliated to AOG and that it has no authority over Senior Pastor Prince Guneratnam or the Board of Deacons (BOD).


A) AOG Constitution Article III, Aims and Objects, states under (D):
“To have the right to establish churches and provide for their development…”


B) Article V.A.3 of their Bylaws further states:
“The church shall submit its annual report of its progress and financial statement to the General Council.”


Does this not mean that Calvary Church is established by AOG and under its control?


Isn’t it a fact that all pastors of AOG churches are ordained by the AOG and receive their credentials from them?


The mere fact that the AOG can remove and have, in the past, removed the credentials of their AOG pastors is evident of their authority over their AOG pastors.


2. Calvary Church members are not Members of AOG Malaysia


They denied that the AOG Malaysia is a family to members of Calvary Church and stated that Calvary Church members are not members of AOG Malaysia.


Their Article VI, Membership of the AOG of Malaysia says:


A. “The membership of the AOG of Malaysia shall consist of all ministers….”


B. “The membership shall also consist of all members of local assemblies which have been set in order by a duly constituted official of the AOG of Malaysia and have been granted a Certificate of Affiliation.”


Article VII (B) even provides for one lay delegate to be sent from each sovereign church to attend and vote at the AOG General Council.


Yet they submitted to the Court that Calvary Church members are not members of the AOG.


3. Calvary Church Constitution not approved by AOG Malaysia


They denied that Calvary Church’s Constitution was approved by them. They denied that they are a party to the Calvary Church Constitution. They claimed that they only endorsed the Constitution based solely on the approval and acceptance of the Calvary Church Constitution by the church members.


Their Article V.C.1 clearly states:


“Amendments to the constitution (of local church) may be made at any general meeting of the church provided that the proposed amendments have been submitted in writing to all voting members of the church at least one month before the meeting in question. The proposed and accepted amendments will only come into effect after a written approval of the Executive Committee of the General Council has been given”

Their submission to Court clearly contradicted what is stated in their Constitution. If they “only endorsed the church constitution based solely on the approval and acceptance of the church members”, then why is there a need for a written approval of the Executive Committee of the AOG for amendments to the churches’ Constitutions? This is clearly twisting the facts.


4. Calvary Church Attendance Figures


In the AOG Commemorative Year Book 2002, they had stated that Calvary Church has 10,000 members. In their sworn affidavit filed in Court, they told the Court that Calvary Church has only more than 1000 members and its regular service were attended by more than 3000 persons.


So if the figures they stated in the affidavit are true, then did they lie in the Commemorative Year Book? Obviously so, especially bearing in mind that in the 48-year history of Calvary Church, they have never ever had such a large membership!


5. Ronnie Chin’s Role at the AGM


They admitted that their Assistant General Superintendent Pastor Ronnie Chin met with some of the Calvary Church Deacons before the 2009 AGM but claimed that it was only for him to be briefed. They denied that it was for these Deacons and Ronnie Chin to strategize how to throw out the Resolutions from the concerned members.


The fact still remains that 6 out of 7 Resolutions were thrown out by Ronnie Chin on the request by Philip Tan (on behalf of the BOD) at the AGM.


Was there a conspiracy between Ronnie Chin who was representing the AOG and these Deacons?


Did the AOG lie to the court?


Certainly looks obvious. Anyway you look at it, the fact that Ronnie Chin was briefed by the Deacons beforehand goes against the very basic principle of corporate governance, ethics and transparency and reflect very badly on the AOG.


6. Coup d’etat


This is the mother of lies!


The AOG claimed that the High Court proceedings taken by the Plaintiffs appeared to be an attempt by a minority of just 69 members to try to take over control of the Church against the wishes of the majority.


There has never been any Resolution proposed to place any of the concerned members onto the Board of Deacons. There was never any attempt to remove the Deacons from their position. In fact for the 2009 AGM, the concerned members advised the church members to vote wisely to place responsible Deacons on the Board.


One of the Proposed Resolutions actually called for the intervention of the AOG into the affairs of Calvary Church and to manage the Church. Certainly none of the Plaintiffs has any desire to pastor or to take control of Calvary Church.


Some of the Plaintiffs are personally known to some of the Executive Council members and these Council Members know that there is no such intention by the Plaintiffs.


The AOG therefore, knows this is a blatant lie and yet they can swear this under oath. Where is their conscience and Christian principles? It is sad indeed that a national Christian body like AOG which represents the largest growing Christian denomination in Malaysia can stooped this low.


It is even more sad to a few of the Plaintiffs who had done so much for the AOG and Bible College of Malaysia (BCM) and were actually in very good terms with AOG and BCM.


From what we have gathered, one of the 7 Plaintiffs was instrumental in acquiring the building in which the AOG Headquarters today occupies. This Plaintiff personally raised half of the Purchase Price of this building. He also helped out financially many times towards the needs of BCM.


Another one of the 7 Plaintiffs bought a brand new van for BCM a couple of years ago. Today that vehicle is still being used to ferry BCM students around and for missions work. This same person has also helped out financially many times towards the needs of BCM. He also sponsored the entire cost of the AOG Widows’ Fund-raising dinner held last year.


It is certainly ironic or rather the humour of God to have chosen the above two Plaintiffs, out of the thousands of Christians in Malaysia, years before this Calvary Saga started, to be a channel of His blessings to AOG and BCM. There must be a lesson that God wants us to learn from and a message He wants us to heed and follow in this test that God has placed before us all as Christians and as Church organizations through this CCC – Calvary Church Crisis!


Whatever the outcome of the Originating Summons is, it does not matter to the concerned members and the Plaintiffs. It is not their battle but the Lord’s. But through this chain of events, one can clearly see that God is certainly in control. The true colours and character of the Church leaders are being exposed today. God is cleansing His Church in Malaysia and in His time, we shall all see His glory and His purposes for His Church in this land.

Footnote: After this article was published, CT received a request from one of the above two Plaintiffs to delete the mention of his contributions to AOG and BCM. Much as CT appreciates the wish of the person to remain anonymous, CT is of the opinion that since no names were mentioned, the anonymity of the person remains intact. CT wishes to elaborate that the purpose was not to highlight the contributions or the contributor but to expose the ungratefulness, nonchalance and gutlessness of the AOG leaders when push comes to shove.

125 comments:

evil to GOOD said...

Dear TTG

GOD is for TRUTH
GOD is for TRANSPARENCY
GOD is for GOOD GOVERNANCE

Keep up the good work and continue
to expose the false prophets of today.

HE will turn evil into GOOD

Anonymous said...

Did the 7 Plaintiffs appeal against the high court decision within the appeal period ?
AOG Malaysia can always be cited for contempt ?

Bamboo Conspiracy said...

THE MIND OF CHRIST WITHIN CALVARY TODAY

Delighted to know that the Lord has placed within the midst of Calvary Today His anointed servants who have been blessed with the professional skills to discern TRUTH and expose lies.

Just like how the Lord raised skilled craftsmen to build the temple of God in the OT, He has raised godly craftsmen today to expose the present weakness of the Rogue Leaders within National Christian bodies and Churches.

These newly anointed craftsmen will assist in the redrafting of a revamped Constitution for National Christian bodies and churches in the future.

ALWAYS SPEAK TRUTH IN LOVE AND NEVER FEAR MEN. GOD NEVER HID THE SINS OF EVEN HIS CHOICE SERVANTS (MOSES, DAVID, ABRAHAM ETC.). GOD IS NEVER AFRAID TO TELL THE TRUTH BECAUSE ONE OF HIS ATTRIBUTES IS "GOD CANNOT LIE!"



Vijay

Paul Long said...

This is very sad. AG council needs to make a statement on this.

September 4, 2010 6:21 AM

Anonymous said...

surely AG needs to before a mass exodus.

Anonymous said...

Those pathetic liars.I think there is more than meets the eye here.God knows what else they are capable of. Keep up the good work!!

Grieved.

Anonymous said...

Looks like God had begun to expose these "born again liars".

More Scandals to Come... said...

Shame on AOG for making such blatant lies. It is indeed against the very fabric of our faith to tell lies to save one's own skin.

Now it is being exposed that AOG pastors are mere selfish people who only want to save themselves from any problems or embarrassments. They will not stand up for what is right or to be truthful and honest about Calvary Church crisis.
All they care about is to save their own positions and not rock the boat otherwise all their church assemblies will also hit the rocks and capsize.

With the CC crisis people will seriously question the intergrity of all AOG pastors and leaders... which AOG pastor will be the center of next church scandal?

We won't be surpised there will be more AOG scandals and scams to come!

CALVARY TODAY said...

Referring to Anonymous, September 3, 2010 4:37 PM who asked,
"Did the 7 Plaintiffs appeal against the high court decision within the appeal period ?"

CT has checked and found out that the Plaintiffs did not file any appeal against the Court's decision as they are of the opinion that AOG is not their primary concern in their legal suit.

Anonymous said...

If one were to read the AOGM Constitution 3 times to grasp the meaning of its Articles and By-Laws , you will know that the AOGM Constitution is explicit in its duties as spelled out!

The elected representatives in the General Council had indeed betrayed their appointed task and duties !

LOOK LIKE THE PROPHECY FROM "Tuesday, April 6, 2010
A Call To Intercede For Our Nation" WILL COME TO PASS !

I had a Vision this morning and I saw many Churches FADING into the DARKNESS in a slow motion manner! I saw MANY named churches but I was numb-founded to note SOME famous secular churches FALLING & disappearing into the wilderness !

Only those with the Gift to discern the SPIRIT will understand the Fore Warning that has yet to come to pass!

Anonymous said...

I do not even have to read to know that someone or some "body" is behaving like an ostrich. 



Why do I say that?



1. It is obvious that the disgruntled group is right. Why do I say so? Well, for a simple fact. If they are obviously wrong then it is simple as a b c for the council to sit and point out the errors of this group. Now it is equally obvious clear that this group has strong valid points so it will be difficult or even impossible to discredit this group when the facts are brought to the surface. Hence, wash hands and let non believers be the judge. Buat bodoh...it is a disease that has not only infected society but the church as well.



I think this one reason will suffice my conclusion. I thought if I have a problem with someone, I ask an elder or two to accompany me to approach that party. Sit down and resolve our disagreement. Is it so difficult? Come on, even gangsters can have table talk to resolve dispute. Now I am disappointed the council do not even want to be involved. Shame on us.



2. Assuming the council is right, that it has no jurisdiction over Calvary. Come on brothers and sisters, when one part of the body is having a problem and request you to stand in to mediate, is it too difficult for you to do just that? After all, blessed are the peace makers for they shall be call children of God.



The good news; no matter how painful or how much dirty linen will be washed in public, the truth will eventually be told and read by all. Will the church be affected. Of course but in the long run, this cleansing will be for the good of the church.



Brothers and sisters, you are all well learned, preach so well. Can we just get back to basics? Solved you problem behind close doors? You want to preach to the world, send missionaries but you cannot take care of your own flock. Looks like you are happy to lose a small flock (not just one sheep) and go out to save the world. Get you house in order before you save the world.



Let us go back to Christianity 101 and work our way back up again before it gets worse.



I recall very very clearly, go settle your problem, do not partake of the communion (this happen on a Sunday worship) and after doing so, we will partake it together. This is basic Christianity.
September 5, 2010 12:06 PM

Anonymous said...

Few points



1. if the disgruntled group is wrong then the council would have set and sorted them out.



2. the disgruntled group must have strong points that is why the council does not want to be involved.



3. bible teaches me that if I have a problem in church, i bring an elder or two along to meet with the other party. Here we wash our hands, let non believers settle matter



4. bible taught us that if we lose a sheep, we leave the 99 behind and go look for the lost sheep. Here, we kicked out a small flock and go save the rest of the world.



5. even if the council is right, that it has no jurisdiction over Calvary, for the sake of the disgruntled group, sit in and mediate. Is there not a verse that if one part hurts, the other parts should also feel it?



Blessed are the peace makers...children of God.



Can we get back to Christianity 101, back to basics before we go save the world.
September 5, 2010 12:12 PM

AOG jumping hot! said...

Thanks CT for the updates. Heard from my reliable sources that AOG is fuming mad about this latest exposure.

Why so mad? When the 7 plaintiffs approached you, you never done anything. When the 400 members were "sacked", you did nothing. Now, when the truth of your sworn affidavits being exposed, you start to jump, like a "kera kena belacan"!

AOG, you thought you can hide and just wash your hands? God will never be mocked. You rogue leaders/pastors, your days are numbered. Repent for the kingdom is at hand. Take heed of what Anonymous September 5, 2010 10.13am have shared.

Anonymous said...

One Legal question was asked = Is " Perjury " in Civil Cases punishable under the Penal Code? If not how to seek remedies in Civil case when defendant lied in open court during pleadings?

" sworn affidavits " are explicitly admissible evidence!

Answer by a Christian lawyer = Make a police report and the police will investigate and the AG chamber will consider as to whether to press charges against the defendants AOGM !

We leave it to the 7 plaintiffs to file a Police Report if everyone including all aggrieved 400 members agreed to proceed further against the elected General Council!

Please pray about this course of action!

Anonymous said...

Jonah says : The points raised here seem strong enough to cause deep concern by the sheep of Chirst as it pertains to "accountability and responsibility" of the party concerned as constituted by it's very own laws.
Please everyone remember that Our God is indeed able to do exceedingly abunduntly above all that we can ever think or imagine.
He is a Strong and Mighty Tower.

Anonymous said...

Looks like the AOG has a lots of explaining to do.Fancy wolves like this leading God's flock!!

Downfall of AOG Gen Council EX-Co said...

I am not really that shocked by this because i could see this coming! AOG General Council ministers have become swollen up with pride and refuse to take correction, resorting to blatant lies just to protect their own interests. Here is the Word of the Lord to AOG General Council Executive Committee.....

Isaiah 5:18-25 (New Living Translation)

18 What sorrow for those who drag their sins behind them
with ropes made of lies,
who drag wickedness behind them like a cart!
19 They even mock God and say,
“Hurry up and do something!
We want to see what you can do.
Let the Holy One of Israel carry out his plan,
for we want to know what it is.”

20 What sorrow for those who say
that evil is good and good is evil,
that dark is light and light is dark,
that bitter is sweet and sweet is bitter.
21 What sorrow for those who are wise in their own eyes
and think themselves so clever.
22 What sorrow for those who are heroes at drinking wine
and boast about all the alcohol they can hold.
23 They take bribes to let the wicked go free,
and they punish the innocent.

24 Therefore, just as fire licks up stubble
and dry grass shrivels in the flame,
so their roots will rot
and their flowers wither.
For they have rejected the law of the Lord of Heaven’s Armies;
they have despised the word of the Holy One of Israel.
25 That is why the Lord’s anger burns against his people,
and why he has raised his fist to crush them.
The mountains tremble,
and the corpses of his people litter the streets like garbage.
But even then the Lord’s anger is not satisfied.
His fist is still poised to strike!

Anonymous said...

I'm going to campaign and provide expertise for AG to sue you guys at CT.... if you are honest and sincere... be man enough to come out in the open... and reveal who you are.... so that a proper suit can be file against you....stand up to what you say.... not hide behind.... the CT site....but we all know... you belong to who ...and you lie through your mouth....just like your father.... calamity is coming your way.... hope God will be gracious enough....

A Brother in Christ said...

Just a question from an independent observer,

I went through the statements given so far and read up on the Memorandum, Constitution & Bye-Laws for AG Malaysia.

If I am to understand this properly, what is Calvary's status relative to the AG denomination?

Because from what I can piece together, it's a flat out declaration that Calvary's an independent church and not part of the AG.

Do you even have a 'Certificate of Affiliation'?

Just some advice from a brother in Christ, do what Lot did and just flee and not look back. Judgement's coming and you don't want to be there when it falls.

wong said...

great ! this is exciting ! i like it...why dont you give me yr legal firm name , address , tel and contact person.i would be pleased to engaged you! i have alot of free time excessive stash funds, life is boring without you ,make my day! my tel number is 012 511 9729 .

Don't wait too long said...

Hello Anonymous September 6, 2010 9:18 PM.

Please go see the Gen Sup of AOG immediately. He is Ong Sek Leang in case you don't know.

You should also see PG to get his lawyer's contact to take up the case. He will know who to sue.

There are too many such comments made by people like you who talk so much but do nothing.

And don't be a pot calling the kettle black. We know who the people behind CT are but who are you? Be man enough to speak openly and not be another "why so long" or are you "why so long" using Anonymous now?

Anonymous said...

I have read these more than 3 times....

Article V: Assemblies
A. Local Church Responsibilities

2. The church shall support faithfully the General Council in
finance. It is recommended that such support shall constitute a
" minimum of 5% " of its monthly general income.

3. The church shall " submit its annual report " of its progress and
financial statement to the General Council.

4. The church shall ensure that its pastor " holds up-to-date
credentials " with the Assemblies of God of Malaysia.

5. To church " shall be de-registered " when it is proven that it " no longer subscribes " to the Constitution and By-laws of the Assemblies of God or "no longer cooperates " with the General Council.

AOG Malaysia is " VICARIOUSLY LIABLE " in the first degree for Calvary Church's state of affairs in secular matters as well as her Spiritual well-being !

It is AOGM duties to interfere and set the record right " even if only one Calvary member " cried out & requested for HELP!

This one member of Calavary Church is “The membership shall also consist of all members of local assemblies which have been set in order by a duly constituted official of the AOG of Malaysia and have been granted a Certificate of Affiliation.” Please do not take this provision in Article VI(B) for granted!

If AOGM said " NO " to Article VI(B) ,then AOGM should ammend its AOGM Consitution to reflect its TRUE INTENTIONS !

Anonymous said...

The Gen Sup Rev Ong Sek Leang and the Asst Gen Sup Rev Ronnie Chin of AOGM, both pastored which churches in KL ?

Do their churches practised " Truth, Transparency, Good Governance, Stewardship & Accountability " ?

Sincerely, I really need to know so as to avoid attending their church services by mistakes?

fight for Truth and Transparency! said...

To Anonymous 6/9 @ 9;18pm.....

Hah! You are not even man enough to reveal your true identity! So why talk big? CT has all the facts in black and white, so go ahead and sue! This will really drag the name of AOG Gen Council Malaysia into the mud! For too long wolves have been leading God's flock and it is TIME they are exposed for what they are! C'mon AOG Gen Council EXCO..... let the world know your true colours! Count me in for the 'fight of the century' and I promise to contribute financially to CT for this!

Truth Shall Prevail said...

A big THANK YOU to TTG and CT for this awesome expose of the lies and falsehood perpetrated by the AOG General Council Executive Committee and their cohorts!


Since all of these 'Reverend wolves in sheep clothing' are also pastoring, they are doing their utmost best not to betray their fellow 'comrades in sin', namely the Guneratnams, because they do not want their own greed and covetuousness to be uncovered and questioned by their own congregations!

They resort to 'writing off' the membership of Calvarites by denying them their rights to speak up against corruption in the church! Is it not right for TTG and CT to stand up for accountability and transparency in the church?

How much easier just to accuse the TTG and CT of plotting to take over the leadership of the church than to speak the truth and face the music?

Speaking Out said...

Anon 7/9 @ 11:31 am....hahaha! how right you are!

Rev Ong Sek Leang is the Senior Pastor of Metro Tabernacle. He sounds and talks like Prince Guneratnam. Avoid this church like the plague!

Rev Ronnie Chin is the Senior Pastor of Revival Church in Jln Ampang. He's PG's 'blue-eyed boy' and tries to condone and imitate his mentor's behaviour!I pity his congregation for having a pastor who 'lords it over the sheep'!

Pride goes before a fall.....
i would suggest to the Board of Deacons of these two AOG churches to be alert & start checking their church accounts with a fine-toothed comb!

Anonymous said...

I have lost respect for AOGM !

I have decided to cancel my trip on 15-9-2020 to Metro Tabernacle A/G "for Malaysia Day Prayer Rally " !

Ezekiel Speaks said...

This is about the strong [or fat] sheep (i.e. the Reverends, AOG EXCO, the pastors and the deacons) bullying the weaker [or lean] sheep (i.e. the ordinary church members).....
God has a word for you bullies!

Ezekiel 34:20-22 (English Standard Version)

20"Therefore, thus says the Lord GOD to them: Behold, I, I myself will judge between the fat sheep and the lean sheep. 21Because you push with side and shoulder, and thrust at all the weak with your horns, till you have scattered them abroad, 22I will rescue my flock;they shall no longer be a prey. And I will judge between sheep and sheep.

David Hwang said...

TTG seems to know all the answer in governing a church. With 400 members on the platter, why don't you start a church to show the rest how a church should be govern according to your Transparency, Truth and Governance. Walk the talk. Show the rest how it is done.

Amazed said...

wah.. it is getting a bit out of hand! why sue here sue there? a lot of people here seemed so angry and appeared to be talking nonsense with threats huh?

This is the time, all christian need to come before God and ask the Lord to search our own attitude towards Christ! Yes, leadership by example, AOG, churches, time to wake up! do not abuse the name of Christ!

Ex-Calvarite # 2001 said...

To David Hwang:

TTG is fighting for truth, transparency, accountability & good church governance for Calvary Church Kuala Lumpur, a church where most of them have been attending and serving the Lord in, in leadership positions, mind you, for the past 30-40 years, a church which they have loved and brought up their children in. TTG 's purpose is to restore the godliness, the holiness, and the fear of God back into a fallen church. Why get sidetracked and challenge them to start a church of their own? It's not that they can't do it, but that is not their goal, get it?

i am not a member of TTG but I understand their mission and their vision - they are zealous for the House of God that it be NOT a den of thieves! TTG is acting rightly in not compromising with nor condoning the corruption in the church, and they have the guts to carry it through! Get this into your thick, self-righteous skull, ok?

Disgusted AOGM Member said...

What a BLACK DAY for the Body of Christ in Malaysia! The Assemblies of God of Malaysia, a long-established Christian organisation, as 'old' as our nation, purportedly the fastest growing Christian group in the nation, supposed to be the salt and the light in the nation, HAS BEEN FOUND WANTING! Caught lying in court! Lying to protect their own selfish reasons, perhaps to cover their tracks?

Supposed to be AN EXAMPLE to the rest of the churches? Supposed to be a TESTIMONY to the heathens in the nation?

What a joke! Well, I am not laughing, but rather, I am dismayed! Many will be stumbled by what you have done, AOGM!!

Ganging up with rogue pastors, just to show solidarity with erring ministers? Not wanting to betray a former General Superintendent, BUT betraying the Name of Christ in the process!

When the salt has lost its savour, what is it good for, then?

Sentinel said...

To Anon 7/9 @5:04 pm.....

I can understand your disillusionment! Yes, indeed, how can lying ministers of the gospel, the high and mighty reverends of the assemblies of God of malaysia, lead a malaysia day prayer rally and still expect God to hear their prayers?

The scriptures tell us, for God to hear our prayers, we must also 'turn from our wicked ways'! Isn't lying to the court just to clamp down on the plaintiffs who are seeking for justice, truth & righteousness in the Church, WICKED in the sight of God? Through their blatant lying these UNHOLY Reverends have condoned the sacking of 400 innocent, faithful, long-time church members of Calvary Church! Such injustice in the Church! How can the AOGM now speak out for justice and righteousness for our nation?

I, too, have lost my respect for AOGM! AOG Malaysia have lost its credibility!

Leaders of AOGM, who preach the Word but do not practise the Word, are nothing but lying hypocrites, the Pharisees of today!

Anonymous said...

I know of a church in the Klang Valley where majority of worshippers fast and pray and " TURN OFF THE TAP"!

Later the rogue Pastor resigned & left the church in embarrassment on his own ,when there was no more funds left to pay his own salary and his staff salaries, no money to pay assessment , quit rent, TNB, Syabas, Iwk etc! No more money for mission outreach staff salaries as well!

When this rogue pastor left, the whole congregation rejoiced! All good things were restored with the appointment of a new Pastor who closely read the pulse of the congregation!

This church today still practised Truth, Tansparency, Good Governance, Stewardship and Accountability!

TTGs efforts to "turn off the tap" has worked as I see it! All my non christians businessmen are not giving a single cent anymore to CC as long as the 2 PGs are around!

The 4 July’s RM35 million Fund-raising at the Sime Darby Convention Centre actually affirmed that CC Treasury is running dry! Everyone know PGs need much more than these amount! How much is Calvary Church monthly operating expenses ? How much is CC yearly operating expenses to run the Church, extended ministries and to maintain their egoistic, lavish secular lifestyles ?

TTGs'effort to get concerned members to TOTT has worked to material degree. Many needy organisations & churches are well blessed by our fund contributions which are well utilised!

I have Fast and Pray about this TOTT and I know it is the only BLESSED way to bring rouge pastors and ministers to their knees of repentance! If we need another 10 years or 20 years to fulfill God's plan to bring rogue pastors and ministers in Malaysia to their knees in repentance , I will still do it and wait upon the LORD GOD to answer my prayers!

NOW I have include AOGM is in my prayer list for CHANGE ! AMEN!

David said...

@Ex-Calvarite #2001.
If TTG & CT is all about Calvary Church, then why are the moderators allowing snide remarks on other pastors and churches like Metro Tabernacle (Rev. Ong Sek Leang) and Revival Center (Rev. Ronnie Chin)

As a non partisan reader who have followed this blog since it's inception, i have seen anger, bitterness and personal attacks rising in the comments. It's getting personal and filled with unnecessary judgemental remarks, eg. "...into your thick, self-righteous skull..".

From discussions,the comments has degenerated into personal attacks and venting of frustrations. Truly, the roots of bitterness defiles many.

What is wrong with the suggestion of starting a TTG church and showing how a church should be operated?

David Hwang said...

@Ex-Calvarite #2001.
Starting a church with ex-Calvarite a good option. Why discount it?

Do you know how many churches in the Klang Valley and in Malaysia were started by concerned Christians who disagreed with their former leaders over doctrines, leadership styles and Church vision and mission?
Some of these churches have thrived and became bigger and more influential than their former church. Example: FGA KL, FGA Ipoh,Renewal Lutheran Church, DUMC, Good Shepherd, Baptist Community Church,City Revival Church, Penang Charismatic Centre to name a few.

Leaving peacefully and starting a local church is a better option than fighting in court. Use your time,money,emotion and energy to start a church and show the way.

Puzzled said...

@CT2
You wrote a seemingly compelling artice. What puzzles me is "why didn't the lawyers for TTG pointed out these lies in court?"

Anonymous said...

To David Hwang,

Facts & evidences are been supplied to see if SP had actually committed spiritual unrighteousness. Are you saying SP had doned nothing wrong and if so, why not state your reasons why you think so. To me or anyone, if there are 400 members accussing SP, his pastors & BOD of committing spiritual unrighteousness, I do not need to check further for surely it had to be true. We are not talking about 1 or 2 or a few members, we are talking about a huge 400 members complaining. Anyone with common sense would surely know there had to be some truth in it. If you are a learned man and had some common sense, won't you think so?

Ex-Calvarite#2001 said...

To David Hwang,

Starting a new church with disgruntled members is nothing new, indeed. But this was NOT the intention of TTG & CT, who have been unfairly accused of 'trying to take over the church'!

And don't you think that the fault lies in the way you said it, in a mocking fashion. I could almost hear you sneering, as you challenged them!!

Your suggestion was not with noble intentions, i dare say!

Surely leaving the church and starting another does not solve the problem of corruption in Calvary Church, does it? This suggestion of yours is in line with what the two PGs want, i.e. "get lost if you don't like it!" You are probably one of their cronies!

Anonymous said...

On 23-8-2010, the Court summed up their decision that "the AGM is the supreme authority in any organization". In simple terms, this means that the " members in an AGM has full authority " over everything else including the Board of Directors or Deacons.

Please stay focus and Fast and Pray for the positive outcome of "The Originating Summons which is currently fixed for mention on 23 September 2010, where both parties will be seeking an early date for
trial.

All 4 Proposed LEGAL Resolutions should be presented for VOTE in a Proper EGM to correct all secular LEGAL Anomalies! The Legal Voting Membership list should NOT be secularly reduced or altered and it should remained status quo as it was on 20-6-2009. The "surgically removed 400 members" are legally constituted and empowered and permitted to cast their VOTE as well!

lET'S come to an EQUITABLE Legal Decision with a CLEAN HAND ! AMEN !

Please exercise the gift of Wisdom to CORRECT IMBALANCES in the Spiritual Realm ! AMEN!

Anonymous said...

I think most people out there who are not from CC do not understand the real problem CC members or "sacked" members are facing. It's not that members want to sue PG or wash dirty linen on public media. I believe TTG has sought to reconcile in peaceful ways with PG and BOD for many years. But knowing PG, he is very authoritative and won't communicate this in a win-win manner. What came out of all the negotiations and discussion is nothing achieved. Don't ever say the members never tried and that they're wicked or evil to tear the church down. I've been hearing so much from PG die-hard that TTG people are trouble-makers and satanic. This is not the way to talk about our brothers and sisters.

I've seen how PG die-hard fans serve in fear; manipulated and deceived. I've seen this with my own eyes, heard with my ears and I've known enough to make a wise decision for myself. I even received calls to not befriend TTG and its supporters. Who are these people to call me and tell who I should befriend? They are the ones tearing down the church of Jesus Christ. By sacking members of the church, they've already accomplished that very purpose.

Yes, I know of churches who've stood up against their pastor and the pastor got sacked by the council and BOD. If CC can have a fair council and BOD, I'm sure this problem would have been resolved years ago and a new SP instituted for the members. Unfortunately the BOD does not hear the woes of the members and AOG doesn't seem to care about God's sheep. The entire council sits on the side of a dictator pastor. So what can the members do? Obviously, they left. So CC is now left with a few hundred people. This is the result of poor leadership.

Apparently many who speak here against CT and TTG have never even been in CC or experienced the dictatorial leadership of PG. You will not understand the hurt of another unless you have personally encountered that hurt yourself. Otherwise pay attention to God and let Him speak to you. Don't make judgements without having gone through the motion.

David Hwang said...

@Anonymous 10:27,
I am not suggesting Calvary Church Pastors & BOD are without fault/sin. However, Leadership failure is not a carte blanche for others to err and make presumptions and judgmental remarks.
Don't become too proud & haughty and think you are now more righteous than the so called failed leaders.
In the final analysis, that is why Jesus died for all sinners like you, CC leaders and me.

Calvarites said...

Hi Readers / Calvarites

Does this sound familiar? This is from Proverbs which I am reading today! It sounds so familiar and real to me for reason I saw it with my own eyes in the church AGM 1/2 years back ( a few pastors who conducted and who chaired the AGM )

Proverbs 6 : 12 - 15

Let me describe for you a worthless and a wicked man; first, he is a constant liar; he signals his true intentions to his friends with eyes and feet and fingers. He is always thinking up new schemes to swindle people. He stirs up trouble every where. But he will be destroyed suddenly; broken beyond hope of healing.-- bible by Kingsway publication,

I am amazed there is such description in the bible!

Anonymous said...

@David Hwang said... @David said.

With due respect to both your recommendations & views!

TTG and the "surgically removed 400 members" will Definitely Win Their Court Case and ALL will VOTE to Pass the 4 Proposed Resolutions! It is God's Vision to restore ORDER in the Spiritual Realm! Amen!

We are more concern is this! Will PGs and "die-hard supporters" ,the moment they " LOST " their court case, will they peacefully leave on their own accord and quitely start their own local church "without the requirements" to fulfill and practise "Truth, Tansparency, Good Governance, Stewardship and Accountability" ?

The Lord God will use the imperfect secular Court to restore harmony and balance in HIS CHURCH! AMEN !

Axed member 101 said...

To David Hwang,

Isn't it easier to ask one over expired SP of the church to leave than kick out 400 of God's children out of their Father's house?

PG did not start Calvary Church. He is not the pioneer of CC. He did not even contribute one ounce of energy to help raise funds for the Damansara Heights building. He came with his family and ate of the goodwill of the church members only.

Now you want to have a good example of good Church governance, there is just ONE DO AND ONE DON'T and this is seen in PG's style.

The ONE DO is follow PG in the way he handles conflicts in the Church - kick them out, fire them, do whatever it takes so long as they are out of your way. AOGM should have learned this from PG.

The ONE DON"T is don't copy the leadership and practices of Calvary Church. You will end up just like Calvary Church now - CC Crisis.

And I agree with you fully that Jesus came to die for you, me and even the PGs. Please remember He died for us, the battered sheep too. And this is His answer to His children's prayer - CCC!!!
(Not calvary convention center but calvary church crisis)

Anonymous said...

@ David Hwang

You talk big here? Trying to sound 'holier than thou'? Who are you to judge TTG & CT for standing up for what is right? Why don't you make an appointment to talk to Prince Guneratnam instead and tell him not to be proud and haughty!! You dare not, surely!All this talk about Jesus dying for sinners.....who doesn't know it? Tell this to Prince Guneratnam - ask him why did he sack those 400 church members for whom Jesus died?
Anyway, we are all wasting our time trying to convince you - you are definitely a PG die-hard!

Anonymous said...

Hey, @Calvarites! Loved your Proverbs 6:12-15!! It is an excellent description of 'you-know-who'!! Hahaha, didn't know the Bible already knows (prophesied) about him!!

Here is the same passage in The Message.....

Proverbs 6:12-15 (The Message)

Always Cooking Up Something Nasty

12-15 Riffraff and rascals
talk out of both sides of their mouths.
They wink at each other, they shuffle their feet,
they cross their fingers behind their backs.
Their perverse minds are always cooking up something nasty,
always stirring up trouble.
Catastrophe is just around the corner for them,
a total smashup, their lives ruined beyond repair.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous at 10.27am in reply to David Hwang..

From the tone of how you talk, may I say you appeared to be a new christian as you seemed to lack christian maturity.

No David, no one is being proud or tried to look more righteous than anyone. No single person in this world is all righteous before God, for the Bible says,"No,not one". Not you, me, SP , pastors or BOD of CC. What happened in CC is not about supporting or going against any personality, be it SP and his followers or people from CT. Its simply about whether Truth, Transparency & Good Governance; whether spiritual unrighteousness or corruption had been abused & committed in Calvary Church? In today's newspapers you read many people are calling out to restore truth, transparency & accountability in all sectors and justice to be melted out against those who had abused their authority & power against others & enriched themselves with misuse of funds.

So David, is it therefore wrong for CT to restore truth, transparency & accountability back to the church?

Anonymous said...

@Anon 8/9, 7:24pm

Yes, yes, thank u for your correction! I WAS indeed behaving immaturely! But i was provoked! Not that i shld use this as an excuse to be immature, but ..it happens to the best of us, sometimes!

To be really, really frank about it, you must admit that david hwang WAS rather irritating with his one-sided views:

He sees the TTG & CT and their supporters as proud and arrogant, just because we speak out against the inconsistencies of the PGs, BOD and AOGM! And he has the cheek to remind us that Jesus died for sinners!

I will give him credit if he has the guts to go up to those offenders, viz. PGS, BOD & AOGM to tell them that they are being proud & arrogant & remind THEM that Jesus died for sinners!

If David Hwang should wear the shoes of those 400 who were unfairly sacked from membership, he would sing another tune!

Anonymous said...

With due respect to PGs, it is time for you to " Just LET GO " and move on happily!

You were never in God,s vision for CC after 2004 and 2006!

It is very difficult to " Just LET GO " after serving so many years in CC!

Move on to the next level of ministry in " CIM " which our good Lord God has planned for you!

The prophecy for Calvary Church will be fulfilled by another new Annointed ! AMEN!

" Just LET GO ! "

Betrayed Calvarite # 3001 said...

open Letter to Prince & Petrina Guneratnam,

I am sorry to say I have lost my respect for the both of you and your family members, in particular Pam Guneratnam.

I started attending Calvary Church in my youth, about 40 years ago, served in the leadership, gave my tithes and Faith Promise faithfully without fail, every 6 months renewing my pledges to the Lord, raised up my children in the Church and saw them started serving the Lord in their teens.

We loved you and trusted you, then. What a blow it was to discover that for all these years you were just pretending to be holy. You plotted and schemed to get your hands on the money which we, and other faithful, trusting Calvarites kept giving, 'unto the Lord,' mind you, not knowing that wolves in sheep's clothing were in our midst! Ravening wolves, with the titles of Reverend, were robbing the sheep, devouring our meat, sucking us dry, and just made a great pretence of serving the Lord, using His holy Name in vain. you preached the Word from the pulpit, the sacred desk, to manipulate us naive sheep, all the while probably rubbing your hands with glee as you accumulated properties not only in Malaysia but now, we've recently discovered, also in the U.S. You told lies from the pulpit without shame! You tell your staff that those who rent properties also have their names registered in Intellius!! You have no more conscience, your conscience being seared with a hot iron!

You treated the funds and finances of Calvary Church as your own private bank account, living a lavish life, and ensuring your children and grandchildren live such a luxurious life too, enjoying the lifestyle of the rich and famous, able to study in comfort, with no worries, for 7-8 years in the States at the expense of God (it was His money, after all!), and His people (who gave willingly and cheerfully unto the Lord, not unto the Guneratnams!)! Was it not enough for you both to earn such a high salary that you must covet God's missions money as well? Wasn't the missions money meant for the poor and needy, that they may hear the gospel? You have robbed the poor and needy, and much will be required from you both! Come to think of it, Calvary Church never did have an Orang Asli Ministry, in spite of the fact that this church was considered as one of the leading churches in Malaysia....why? Are they considered a liability to you because you can't expect them to give to you, AND on top of that, they may very well tarnish your Government-sanctioned titles and put you in the Government's bad books? How much did you pay to get your Datukship and TanSriship? Was it paid out of our missions funds as well?

1 Timothy 6:3-11 describes you exactly. Will you not flee from the wrath to come? Will you not make restitution for all the money you had stolen from the church? Will you not humble yourself and apologize to all the Calvarites whom you had deceived for all these years? Will you not make amends for stumbling so many of God's sheep?

God's Patience may wear off... said...

I am very touched by the Open Letter written by Betrayed Calvarite #3001. Many of us feel exactly the same way that Prince Guneratnam and Petrina Guneratnam have indeed betrayed the trust of the members of Calvary Church.

We have been so supportive and believing in all the plans and projects that were initiated by CC leadership that we would go to all extent to give and also to share with our non- believing friends to raise money to support Calvary Land and Calvary Convention Centre all these years before 2008.

But look what has happened to those funds that were given? It was not put to the legitimate purposes it was meant for. What was meant for God's work and kingdom have been squandered by the Guneratnams for their own selfish desires and plans, to enrich themselves, their son and daugther/in-laws and grandchildren and for their high living and pleasures.

We shudder at the thought of how our Heavenly Father will view these fleshly and ungodly acts of the servants whom He had called to take care His sheep.

Instead of feeding the sheep, the Guneratnams have been fleecing them and demanding for more and more money to finance their schemes and when it was meant primarily for their own high living.

They were actually using the Word of God to front for their own personal agenda and at all times trying to justify their acts, that the minister of God must not be muzzled for what they are doing for God's work.

WHY? Won't they repent and seek forgiveness from God and the congregation and do what is right and honourable instead of persisting with their stubborn ways and hiding behind the lawyers' backs?

WHY? Won't they humble themselves and seek God's face and turn away from their wrongful ways?

WHY? Won't they acknowledge they have been misleading the congregation and pursuing their own vision instead of God's Vision?

WHY? If they delay further who knows how long God's patience will remain?

It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of God's wrath and anger!

Another Long Time Calvarite said...

If what Betrayed Calvarite #3001 said its correct, then can or should he be forgiven? If he says sorry, does he get to keep all the 'assets' that he has together with his children?

Anonymous said...

Heard the game we used to play when we were younger? Whisper something to a person at one end of the line and by the time it gets passed along, the last person would have heard something almost totally different - depending on how long is the line of course!

I have no doubt that the Guneratnams have abused their position to lead lives which are considered less spiritual/christian; I have no doubt that the church (under the leadership of the SP) has loss what it means to be the Body of Christ but has degenerated into an organisation majoring in programmes and how well we can do things, "spiritual things" mind you; I have no doubt that the pastoral heart of most of the pastors have disappeared under the present regime - even the call to "spirituality" is really a call to support the church.

But to make sweeping statements and allege that, for example:

"What a blow it was to discover that for all these years you were just pretending to be holy. You plotted and schemed to get your hands on the money which we, and other faithful, trusting Calvarites kept giving, 'unto the Lord,' mind you, not knowing that wolves in sheep's clothing were in our midst! Ravening wolves, with the titles of Reverend, were robbing the sheep, devouring our meat, sucking us dry, and just made a great pretence of serving the Lord, using His holy Name in vain. you preached the Word from the pulpit, the sacred desk, to manipulate us naive sheep, all the while probably rubbing your hands with glee as you accumulated properties not only in Malaysia but now, we've recently discovered, also in the U.S."

is I think not right.

What "Betrayed Calvarite" is alleging is that the SP had always had an bad (evil?) intention and that all, if not most, of the money has gone into his own coffers. I can understand the hurt which has surfaced over the last 2 - 3 years (which of course the church continues not to care about but the focus remains programmes, programmes, programmes - remember they have lost the pastoral heart and what it means to be the Body of Christ) but such sweeping statements are both unsubstantiated and in my opinion not christian.

Sure, I have many things "against" the current church leadership (some of which I have already mentioned) but let's be careful with our comments.

Thanks.

Anonymous said...

To Betrayed Calvarite #3001 - thank you for sharing your heart with us.

I suggest CT put up an advertisement in all major newspaper of what "Betrayed Calvarite #3001" has written for the Guneratnums, the so called CC pastors, associate pastors and deacons to read!!!
September 10, 2010 3:25 PM

Betrayed Calvarite #3001 said...

@Anon Sept10, 5:07 pm,

What makes you think I wasn't careful with my comments.....everything I said were facts, though you choose to deny it! But then you are entitled to your opinion. just as I am entitled to mine.

Don't forget....I was with Calvary Church since the very early 1970's, when there were only 100+worshippers! And i can testify that everything that has been exposed on CT is true, the whole truth and nothing but the truth....

For instance, Pam Guneratnam came back from her 7-8 years of study in the U.S. in late 1993, which means she went for her studies in 1985. How was this planned, and when? Definitely LONG BEFORE 1985! Were the congregation INFORMED of this, that it was our money that was paying for her extensive and expensive American studies? Of course, no! Mind you, I ATTENDED every AGM, didn't miss any!

Secondly, When was the Church Constitution changed? The answer: 1985. Before he could execute this devious move, he & PG2 must have plotted and schemed to do this, with an evil intention, long before 1985.

There was a time when he even tried to change the annual AGM to a bi-annual AGM. He tried to get the leadership to support this move by tabling his evil proposal at a Leaders' Retreat, but thankfully, this devious scheme was opposed. I can't remember the year, though. Can someone help me to pinpoint the year that this happened, please?

Another point: When were the BOD told not to take home the minutes of the BOD meeting? The answer: on BOARD MEETING #1 during PG's leadership! Or was it @ Board Meeting #2? (Anyway, whichever year it started, is an indication of the year when the PGs plotted to get their hands on the church money). Why? The answer is obvious: he wanted no written records of the BOD meetings! Why? Answer: so that he could cover his tracks. I think this is the ONLY church that did not allow its BOD to take home the minutes!! Can you imagine any company doing this, let alone a church that holds Board Meetings!! It is PREPOSTEROUS!

Moreover, the minutes were NOT signed by any of the BOD, so the 'church copy' of those minutes could be easily altered, at any time by PG!

I remember a BCM lecturer, who was collecting 'old' AOG materials for the Archives, was so dumbfounded when he was told that Calvary Church do not have any copies of the 'old' church minutes!! He did not know why then! But NOW we all know....!

Let me remind you that no one ever 'falls into temptation' as though it was a sudden, uncontrolled act!

What does the Bible say about 'falling into temptation'?

James 1:13-15 (King James Version)

13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

The two PGs were drawn away of their own lust when they saw the loopholes in the Church structure & accounting system. So they conceived their evil plans, plotted and schemed, and today they are millionaires with high-end properties in Malaysia and U.S. and, maybe even in UK (I won't be surprised if this is so because he and his family had often taken long family vacations in UK)!!

I rest my case!

Betrayed C #3001 said...

For a better understanding of how temptation works, here is the same passage of scripture in 2 other versions.....

James 1:13-15 (New Living Translation)

13 And remember, when you are being tempted, do not say, “God is tempting me.” God is never tempted to do wrong,[a] and he never tempts anyone else. 14 Temptation comes from our own desires, which entice us and drag us away. 15 These desires give birth to sinful actions. And when sin is allowed to grow, it gives birth to death.

Footnotes:
James 1:13 Or God should not be put to a test by evil people.


James 1:13-15 (The Message)

13-15Don't let anyone under pressure to give in to evil say, "God is trying to trip me up." God is impervious to evil, and puts evil in no one's way. The temptation to give in to evil comes from us and only us. We have no one to blame but the leering, seducing flare-up of our own lust. Lust gets pregnant, and has a baby: sin! Sin grows up to adulthood, and becomes a real killer.

All of us have a choice: to give in to temptation or to resist it. Those of us who are filled with the Spirit have the power to resist temptation and say, NO, to the devil! Sadly, the Guneratnams went ahead with their lust, the lust of the eyes, the lust of the flesh, and the pride of life, bringing destruction to themselves and scattering the sheep.

Anonymous said...

I agree with the comments Anonymous September 10, 2010 5:07 PM.

In my previous posting I had said something similar but the point may have been "lost in translation".

I don't know all that is going on in CC but have been following the developments on this blog. If even only part of what is written is true (and I have no reason not to believe so), the leadership of CC and whoever is abetting it is in real deep trouble.

Regardless of how hurt or angry you are over the abuses, it will do you a great service if you stay focused on message, ie. stick what is FACTUALLY accurate. Leave out the issues that are hearsay only and unsubstantiated, including accusing others who are not involved of complicity. Otherwise, what is written will be juicy rumors and innuendos but you will soon lose you audience.
September 11, 2010 8:42 AM

Believer said...

hello Anonymous Sept. 11 @10.05am

if you think you cannot believe and keep blaming or accusing those commenters in this blog, my suggestion to you is be one of the 'lose audience', you need not to keep reminding and spending time following this blog but yet cant believe and accept all that had been commented and written.

i personally believe what is in this blog, hence i am one of the reader!

Anonymous said...

Okay, let's focus on just one of the many issues: properties that the Guneratnams allegedly have in the US.

This started with a suspicion and someone providing the result of a search. Of course we all know that the search results do not necessary mean that the property/properties belong to them. But soon without any more development and further investigative work, it has become almost a "biblical" fact that the Guneratnams are owners of not one mind you but numerous properties in the US. Please don't get me wrong here - I am not saying that they do not own any properties in the US. All I am saying is that I do not know and unless someone out there has title deeds which their names on them, this remains merely a suspicion, an allegation. And if you ask me, I don't think anyone out there has any concrete proof - otherwise it would have been plastered all over the place.

On the other hand, while I don't know how much SP has collected in terms of gifts when he ministered overseas (or for that matter, locally), from the feeble attempted clarification on this matter by the church leadership which failed miserably, it appears quite clear that unlike the other pastors, he did not account for these gifts/offerings he received to the church and such this is most unbecoming of someone spiritual and in that postion of authority. Where is the money? How much total over the years? I really don't know but I do know that he should be ashamed of himself of not living out what he preached to the other pastors. And mind you, there is no accountability yet up to this point of time. So sad! So, so sad!

Coming back to the properties in the US. Hearsay or fact? Suspicion or reality? If anyone is objective enough, this reamins hearsy, suspicion and allegation. No? If not, where is the proof?

Anonymous said...

Anon 11/9 @10:05am

Which of the facts given are not factual, according to your accusation?

Please go and do what 'Believer' @ 2:04 pm have suggested....

CT's fan said...

I agree with Believer, if you don't believe what is written by others here then don't read.



Another Anon, September 11, 2010 8:42 AM said this, "stick what is FACTUALLY accurate. Leave out the issues that are hearsay only and unsubstantiated, including accusing others who are not involved of complicity. Otherwise, what is written will be juicy rumors and innuendos but you will soon lose you audience."



I have just one thing to say about this, I think CT here is not interested in a keeping an "audience". CT is not like the church where members are very important because more members means more money. You noticed, CT is not even open to "advertisement" so that they can earn money.



What CT is doing is all pro-bono so you don't have to "frighten" readers here and CT administrators that CT will lose audience. I'm sure CT will respond this way, 'IT DOES NOT MATTER IF CT HAS AUDIENCE OR NOT BECAUSE CT IS THE LORD'S, NOT OURS.'
September 11, 2010 5:36 PM

Anonymous said...

Dear Believer, I just don't believe that EVERYTHING written is true and factually accurate. There are instances of unnecessary bashing with any substantiation. Only the writers know it and perhaps there is a need for anyone who post a statement or accusation to confirm to the administrator that he has personally vouched for the accuracy before it can be posted.
September 11, 2010 9:20 PM

Anonymous said...

CT's fan.. Anyone posting a different take is being asked to leave. How sad. Surely, you want to substantiate your case with solid evidence and support. People who are not involved will be able to provide some objectivity and reason. I am afraid that the message is lost in the clutter..
September 11, 2010 10:34 PM

Anonymous said...

A note on the properties search in US via Internet. Someone tried relate to 'Pam G' and there were correlation. Can anyone confirm ?

Anonymous said...

So does the Guneratnams own properties in the US? In the UK? Or anywhere else. The silence from SP does not necessary mean a guilty verdict; and of course it does not mean not guilty as well.

Whatever the reason(s) why no statement or clarification is made (perhaps he thinks that as the SP, he does not need to answer to the members; perhaps he feels that he does not need to say anything because "God is his defender"; perhaps he does not know what to say since he (and his family members) does own properties and he does not know how to explain this to the members; perhaps, perhaps, perhaps) the fact remains that his action (or rather non-action) reflects his lack of concern and care for the Body of Christ. This to me is the crux of the matter - it is not so much of whether he does or does not own properties but rather his action evidenced his lack of love for the members, the lack of understanding and spirituality of what it means to be part and parcel of the Body of Christ. All this talk about God's vision is empty when people are not the focus. And in Calvary, people are indeed not the focus. Did not the Apostle John said it so clearly that all this talk about loving God who we cannot see is nothing but a lie if we cannot/do not love our fellow brothers & sisters who we can see. So the programmes, the plans and even the "vision" are all hollow and empty when there is no care, no love, no concern for members and may I add, when there is no transparency and no good governance because this is not how the Body of Christ is meant to be.

Sentinel said...

Anon 11/9 @ 11:42 pm

You keep harping on the fact that the PGs showed no care, no love, no concern for the members and at the same time you 'play down' the facts that the PGs own properties....what are you up to? Trying to 'play good cop', 'bad cop' with us?

Pastors who show no love, no care, no concern for their church members are many, but this is TOO GENERALISED! You cannot bring up an issue with such pastors because it is also subjective.

What CT and many commentators here on this blog are saying is that the PGs have gone too far with this 'showing no love, no care, no concern for the members' by FLEECING THE SHEEP to build their own Guneratnam Dynasty or Kingdom!

Just think, many church members can afford to own just one house in our lifetime, and yet we are being robbed, fleeced, sucked dry, of our money to enable the Guneratnams to own at least 10 properties here and in the U.S.!

Anonymous said...

Anon 11/9 @10:05am

I am not making any accusations at all. As someone who is not from CC and have no axe to grind with either side, I am merely pointing out that there are all sorts of accusations flying around - some are factual and some are not. The onus is on the writer to provide the evidence.. One cannot prove that nothing exists. Like Anon 10.43PM, I can't prove that PGs do not have properties in the US. Is the database where the info is obtained a reliable source for e.g. in the court of law that the person listed is in fact the owner. Is the property purchased by cash and is it with loans? I don't know and it is up to the person who wrote it to also provide evidence that it is true. Otherwise, it will just be heresay.
September 12, 2010 6:24 AM

Anonymous said...

This is what I have noted to be true; SP had corrupted, twisted, confuse & perverted the teaching of Christ. This is a grave sin and an abomination to God. Just this one would be enough to find SP guilty of all. So why are those so concerned about needing proof to substantiate before finding SP guilty. No need to. To me, if such a person can commit this one sin against God, he is able to commit a lot of things. With such a character, do you honestly think SP cares for the flock of the church? If he is innocense, he is given every chance to prove it,yet till now he still remains silent. I think he owes an explanation to those who supported him to clear his name if he is truly innocense.

Anonymous said...

Sentinel wrote:

"Just think, many church members can afford to own just one house in our lifetime, and yet we are being robbed, fleeced, sucked dry, of our money to enable the Guneratnams to own at least 10 properties here and in the U.S.!"

Now it is "own at least 10 properties here and in the U.S." - this is precisely what I mean by the story change as we go down the row. Again I am not saying that the Guneratnams do not own any properties in the US but unless someone can evidence this, it is perhaps appropriate that we should at least say "I think" or "Maybe" or "There is suspicion" or something to that effect instead of making statements as though they are the absolute facts. A little caution is in order - wouldn't you think so?

Anonymous said...

Anon 12/9 @ 2.43 pm

Who are you trying to bluff? You dare say you have no axe to grind with either side? You're lying, of course! Most of your remarks have been accusing CT & commenters on the blog of not giving factual evidence, when all the time the facts have already been verified much earlier in the blog!

You are merely trying to cast doubts on facts that have already been verified!

You are always accusing us of commenting on hearsay. How subtle and how devious you are! I see through your lies!

Whenever you comment on SP, it is always 'giving him the benefit of the doubt' while at the same time giving the appearance of you being a nice guy, fair to all, e.g. "The silence from SP does not necessary mean a guilty verdict; and of course it does not mean not guilty as well." You are surely speaking with a forked tongue!

Anonymous said...

Bro. n Sis. in Christ. Interesting article for your perusal

# Calif. Pastor Frustrated with 'Comfortable' Christianity
# 'Professional Pastor' Wants to Love Jesus Again

http://www.understandthetimes.org/inthenews/247_uc.shtml

Enjoying reading

September 12, 2010 3:35 PM

axed member 101 said...

To the anonymous September 12, 2010 6:24 AM who said, "As someone who is not from CC and have no axe to grind with either side,".

For a person who is not from CC, you are surely very knowledgeable about PG, especially about his wealth or lack of it. You say that people here comment on hearsay but you are also speaking on hearsay.

How can you who is not from CC, know more than those of us here who have been in CC before PG even stepped into CC?

The only other people who will know PG so well would be the AOGM council members or AOG pastors.

People who share their experiences here have gone through and seen with their own eyes and have worked with PG for years.

Coming to proof. Someone already sent the evidence of Pam G spending 7-8 years in the USA. We who know PG very well, knows that he will NEVER RENT a house because he wants everything first class quality and most expensive designs. (Even Pam shares this same trait. She admitted herself in one devotion she shared with us. She said, whatever she likes is always expensive. Then again you may say I am speaking from hearsay because only I remember what she said now)

He may have charge the church for the rental but he will BUY IT so that it will be his' today. That's why, you may think and believe what he said about renting the place but knowing his character, we believe otherwise.

This is what he told the church about his Volvo. He said that someone gave it to him but when it was discovered that he took a loan for it, he said someone in Singapore was paying the installment for him. Go ask PG yourself now, how he got his Volvo and see what he will tell you now. He is very good at coming up with instant excuses when he is questioned. He can quickly twist and turn his words and at the end you cannot keep track of what he said. That's his skill.
September 12, 2010 11:04 PM

Hold Up The Light! said...

TQ, Axed member#101 for speaking out! You are just ONE of the many witnesses of the corruption in the lives of the Guneratnams, wolves indeed, devouring the sheep, misleading and deceiving the congregation, abusing their spiritual authority, misusing the 'call to give to missions,' pretending to be so missions-minded, thereby gathering up much riches for themselves through the years, in order to live the lives of the rich and the famous. Pam Guneratnam's own words condemn her & her family.....yes, indeed everything she likes is expensive, because she had been brought up by her RICH parents to expect to live such a life of indulgence and comfort.

In the days of the OT, at the mouths of two or three witnesses, the Guneratnams would be stoned to death! And yet here, we have at least 3001 witnesses testifying to the gross lack of accountability and good church governance in the ministries of PGs!!

But amazingly, AOGM stand behind these two Reverend Guneratnam wolves, by absolving themselves either directly or indirectly from any responsibility to correct and discipline their errant AOG-ORDAINED Reverend ministers!!

No wonder our nation is in such a mess - when the light in the nation, the Church of the Lord Jesus Christ, is 'fading into the darkness,' surely gross darkness is coming upon our nation today!

What is scary is that the Lord Himself will hold the Church [and subsequently,its shepherds] responsible for the spiritual climate of the nation!

CT and TTG are desperately trying to 'hold up the light' by making a bold stand for truth, transparency, accountability and good church governance.....the only glimmer of light that is still shining in the darkness! Be strong and very courageous and continue to speak out for righteousness, CT & TTG!!

Sentinel said...

Anon 12/9 @ 4:02 pm.

I should make a correction, indeed...only 9 properties, not 10!

I forgot that Pam Guneratnam sold her Bangsar house for RM1.2m!! She is indeed making her plans to settle in the U.S. and why not? She is well provided for and has wealth stashed up for her & her family to live comfortably in the States:
1. Two of the U.S. properties are in HER NAME!!
2. She has ownership over the RM1m excess funds in the CLM Extended Ministry a/c, and now that she has resigned form the church, that surplus funds which had not been returned to the church belongs to her! Is there any news of this money being returned to the church?
3. The high salary which she had been earning for so many years, since 1995 (when CLM started) plus EPF earnings is quite a tidy sum, to enable her to enjoy her 'expensive things' for the rest of her life!

This is a fine example of 'getting rich through the ministry'! I marvel at how the Guneratnams pulled this off under the long noses of the BOD and AOGM!! When will the long arm of the law catch hold of them, i wonder, 'Why So Long'?

Sentinel said...

Sorry, another correction.....

CLM started in 1994, not 1995. Which means, Pam Guneratnam had 16 years of earning a high salary under the high-level sanction [and biased personal appraisal]of daddy dearest himself. No one else, except for one ex-human resource deacon [who is not telling], knew how much she & her brother earned!!And they are not even theologically qualified! Wow, what a privileged life they have!

Anonymous said...

...When will the long arm of the law catch hold of them, i wonder, 'Why So Long'?

In an imperfect criminal justice system, there is no time- bar to prosecute any criminal cases ? Just be patience!

Catch her quick said...

wow..where is her properties, in California, L.A or her previous school's in Georgia, Atlanta or where?

aiseh.. this young woman( P.G 3 ) also can be so corrupted meh? very scary to think further! any chance to report her?

Anonymous said...

Another clever way of Pastors fleecing believers money is the running of day schools.I came from an AOG church where the Pastor started one.He never was the "schooling sort" yet suddenly he showed interest because his fellow Pastor started one.Lately we discoveerd that he has been chanelling some of this $$ to fund scholarship for a few young adults- all of them young ladies.He puts on a godly look and talks spiritual. Good luck to him.Its only a matter of time before he gets exposed.

Puzzled said...

CT Readers, There are still many pastors who are serving the Lord faithfully and have practise integrity in financial matters. Please do not use the same brush to paint all pastors especially AG pastors. I know an AG pastor who even issues receipts to those who wants to remain anonymous by writing their names as ANON and hands the receipts to them for accountability. His policy is also to distribute 100% of all designated giving as specified. Be happy there are still godly pastors in our midst. Not all is lost.

Anonymous said...

AOG pastors who are serving the Lord faithfully and have practise integrity in financial matters (TTGGSA ) are a blessing to their congregations! I will continue to encourage my friends to worship in these blessed Spirit Filled Churches that practised TTGGSA !

Anonymous said...

That's true. God always has a remnant reserved for Himself! Elijah was told that he was not alone (in one of the darkest times in the history of God's people) and that Yahweh still has 7,000 who have not bowed their knees to Baal. Today, I believe that there are still some God-fearing pastors and Christian leaders who have not bowed their knees to the spirit of mammon! And praise the Lord, TTG members are among these!

Anonymous said...

Yes, the vast majority of AOG pastors are true under-shepherds, dedicated and committed to their calling. I met one recently. He left his big well established church when he realized the senior pastor was authoritative and dictatorial. Together with some like minded members they left to start their own AOG church. One of the first thing they did was to draft a constitution separating pastoral from administration. The pastor signs no cheque and leave the financial management to the deacons. It is now thriving church with a number of sister churches.

September 14, 2010 4:58 PM

Anonymous said...

In one account, known as the Judgment of Solomon, two women came before Solomon to resolve a quarrel about which was the true mother of a baby. One mother had her baby die in the night after rolling over it in her sleep and crushing it; each claims the surviving child as her own. When Solomon suggests dividing the living child in two with a sword, the true mother is revealed to him because she is willing to give up her child to the lying woman, as heartbreaking a decision as it is. Solomon then declares the woman who shows compassion to be the true mother, and gives the baby back to her.

We need God to send us all a Mr Solomon!!

Looking east, learning from the hand full of honorable Japanese PM's may not be a bad thing. Over-stay one's welcome will sound and look like some local politician, not a pretty sight.
September 13, 2010 11:38 PM

wong said...

what is spoken is spoken ..each time i surf ctoday 2..it merry go around ..enough of these speeches expression..it time for an affirmative action to petition for sp resignation..either we do this and face him openly or this drag drag drag .sp be having a gala time with our hard earned money.

let face him openly with a petition..from the numbers of registered petitioners , we know where we stand and the support! it time for action we have till christmas to decide.if we dont have the support..we might as well start another clean slate church as some have suggested

Anonymous said...

To Anonymous Sept 14th. 4.58pm

It had been provened again and again that most of the scandal tainted preachers around the world are from AOG. Especially in the US, now with all the CC pastors, the AOG of Malaysia & the NECF for failing to stand up and spoke out for the righteousness of God. This should indicate and tell us that something is very, very wrong with this Assemblies of God.

Clarity Needed said...

What to make of this? Complaint lodged with the IRD and was dismissed, complaint lodged with the police, also no action taken. Application made to the High Court, dismissed, appealed to the Court of Appeal again, dismissed. Can't even garner the support of half let alone 2/3rds of members to push them out.Members voted instead to close the blog and MCMC acted on it but poor Telekom was blamed? Go figure.

Figured out already said...

To Clarity Needed

Why do you need clarity when you seem to know already what is happening?

How do you know the IRD dismissed the case? What makes you think he is not paying his fine monthly to IRD now?

How do you know the police report no action? Look at the "Sosilawati murder case" now caused all the others cases to be investigated again. Any Police report filed is open for investigation until an official "CASE CLOSED" is issued. It is a matter of time - when? It will come like a THIEF IN THE NIGHT.

I have been figuring about this for a long time and day by day I begin to see the true character fo PG, his wife and children and the associate pastors.

Look at the Calvary services. It used to be packed in the 2nd service. Now you can walk in late and you can still choose your favourite spot. How come more than half of the congregation have left Calvary Church? Go figure.

They paid so much to rent the SDCC to raise RM35 million advances but only managed to get RM2 million. Go figure.

How come PG's vision for a new church building failed? Hartamas, calvary horse shoe and now ccc. Go figure.
September 16, 2010 11:52 PM

Bamboo Conspiracy said...

THE CRY OF THE HOLY SPIRIT

None of us can know all the facts especially on the timing of events and details that happended years ago. Nevertheless we can focus on the SPIRIT behind the LETTER and "hear" the heart of the matter.

If you want to hear the CRY OF THE HOLY SPIRIT deep within the heart of some of God's children in Calvary Church, then, blogs such as that written by "Betrayed Calvarite # 3001" are excellent examples.

They that have spiritual discernment will know that this IS INTERCESSION. As I said before Intercession is not just prayer - it is deeper than prayer and goes to the very heart of God.

IT IS GOD CRYING TO THE PRESENT LEADERS TO REPENT AND STOP HEARTING HIS CHILDREN. THAT CRY IS NOT JUST LIMITED TO THE PRESENT LEADERS OF CALVARY CHURCH BUT TO EVERY RESPONSIBLE LEADER IN OTHER CHURCHES AND CHRISTIAN ORGANISATION AS WELL.

If any read such a blog as that written by "Betrayed Calvarite # 3001" and your heart was NOT MOVED - please go before God and ask Him to melt your heart. Ask Him to make your heart sensitive to the cry of His people.

To those such as "Betrayed Calvarite # 3001" - the Lord has heard your cry and has declared "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," says the Lord.

God will vindicate His people. This is clearly and abundantly proved in Romans 12:19, 2 Thessalonians 1:6-10; Revelation 6:9-11; Deuteronomy 32:40-43.

Vijay

Anonymous said...

Good proposition from WONG of September 16, 2010 12:03 PM ..

.....it time for an affirmative action to petition for sp resignation..either we do this and face him openly ...

Please proceed as the Church Handbook specifically stated both PGs were no longer "legally " in service ever since 2004 and 2006 ! This is the Root of all the problems which was not corrected in 2004 and 2006 ! Both PGs had vehemently refused to " Just LET GO ! "

no questions no LIES said...

Ask no questions on PG Lake Club membership and
PG will tell you no lies.

Ask no questions on PG visitaion to Sun Complex and
PG will tell you no lies.

Ask no questions on PG fine from IRD and
PG will tell you no lies.

Ask no questions on the transfer of RM1.9M to PG personal account and
PG will tell you no lies.

Ask no questions on the mediation by TAN SRI and
PG will tell you no lies.

Ask no questions on accounts of extended misistries and
PG will tell you no lies.

Ask no questions on police report and
PG will tell you no lies.

Ask no questions and
PG will tell you no lies.

The more questions you ask,
the more lies will come from PG

The more lies from PG,
The more PG sins.

Do Not cause PG to sin
PG lied n lied n lied n lied.

STOP telling us LIES, PG
STOP the SINs

wong said...

do a petition on him ..whether he stay refused to leave is secondary matter! enough of these bible verses, preaching here..pls ! do it!

Talk is cheap said...

Wong of September 16, 2010 12:03 PM and September 17, 2010 3:06 PM, and Anon of
September 17, 2010 9:33 AM.

Talk is indeed cheap. May be Wong would like to start the ball rolling. The rest can lean on God and CRY OUT IN THE SPIRIT!

wong said...

i am willing..all needed is ct set a place and time .or after sunday service ..i will sign it

Anonymous said...

Please let's start The True Calvary Church (TTCC). I am sure TTCC will grow to be a mega church with good governance, transparency and truth. Why comment so much abt "the Devil" let's focus on our true mission and calling - to reach the yet-to-be-saved thereby hastening His return.
September 18, 2010 4:28 PM

Anonymous said...

Seriously, let's start The True Calvary Church (TTCC). We are spending too much time and energy fighting and not enough effort to reach the yet-to-be saved. We are spending too much time commenting and not enough energy as a 'TTG' group to reach out the hurting and the lost. Also,let's not abandon the original course of this whole affair. Can we also now embark on a mission to extend our resources to a dying world?
September 18, 2010 4:38 PM

Name not in the list said...

Hello Calvarites

Heard that the AGM for 2010, will be held on October 1, 2010.

All sacked members, what say you?

Believing the Impossible said...

PG and BOD surely know how to bull doze their way. I can only guess that now is the best time for them to run full steam against whatever left-over opposition in CC they may have because the main obstacles have been removed by their brute force...through reclassification of 400 members prior to earlier date fixed for AGM 2010 but halted by the interim injunction by concerned members.

However, we believe God is watching from above and we will continue to pray that God will intervene in a miraculous way! No one can escape God's knowledge and plans for His people.. who can understand the mind of God for His ways are higher than our ways.

Even though it may seem a losing battle for those fighting for justice presently, but we believe God has a time to restore all things.

We shall persevere and believe God to work out something that is beyond our imagination!

Anonymous said...

Looks a good course of action to take by starting True Calvary Church - starting afresh and anew and doing what the church is suppose to do. As for the existing Calvary Church, if God is not in their "plans", whatever is being done although may look "successful" will ultimately fall short of God's intention and fail. Staying and "fighting" will not be good for everyone since the real work and vision of the church is the one which is really and ultimately affected. Let those who remain decide what they want to do - hey, change may still come and it may not tarry ... all for God's glory!

THE STAR REPORT said...

READ the Star Newspaper today.

Pg SM4 - Insight starmag, Sunday 19 September 2010.

Here's some excerpts :

Article on ENGAGE OR STAY NEUTRAL?
Opinions are divided on Christian involvement in politics, but most people agree on the need to fight for justice.

Reports in The Star in November 2009 and March 2010 had it that a renowned charismatic church in KL had allegedly mismanaged church funds. Plans for a lavish "spaceship-like" RM150mil Christian "convention centre" had also split the congregation.

After some 400 church members, who called themselves the Truth, Transparency and Good Governance Group (TTG), demanded accountability for church funds, their names were mysteriously removed from the membership rolls. They then staged a demonstration against the church's leadership and lodged police reports.

Anonymous said...

Anyone can start a church. It is not a difficult thing to do. But not everyone have the courage of TTG to stand up against the church leadership to demand that the church be run with Godly principles and not run like a den of thieves.

The lost do not need more churches but more people who will run the present churches with truth, transparency and good Godly governance.

From what I read in this article, the TTG people are strong supporters financially of Christian work whether by Calvary or not. I am sure they would continue to support the work and the ministries of Pastors and missionaries that are existing.

So this call for starting a True Calvary Church sounds more like the wishes of PG and the leaders of Calvary than from the 400+ axed Calvarites.

wong said...

with so many police reports lodged ..are the police compromised ? or we wait for the same as in some missing people? or sp absconded? these are possibiliities ..affirmative action.now !

Anonymous said...

I agree with anon @6.52pm posting on the lost do not need more churches but more people who run the the present churches with truth, transparency and good governance. To him/her i will ask "are you attending one that is?" Should your answer be any other answer then yes can i have your support that TTG starts one? And isn't it long overdue that christians have one that truly practises T,T & GG? Or are you in doubt that TTG might not walk the talk?
September 20, 2010 12:11 AM

Anon @ September 19, 2010 5:58 PM said...

99% of all the churches out there are run by very good, honest, caring, loving, truthful, transparent pastors.

99% of all the churches out there are run by pastors and deacon and elders and leaders with good governance and abide by strict godly principles.

They may not be perfect in all ways but they are genuine in their calling to serve God and minister to people.

Anon @ 12.11 am - you are subtly trying to tell us that all pastors and churches out there are like PG and Calvary and that's why TTG must start their own church.

God calls different ones for different task. Some evangelist, some pastors, some deacon and some just to expose the deceit of that 1% pastors and churches out there.

To TTG bros & sis, do not waiver in your calling and do not be swayed by others to stray away from what you have been called out to do. Continue your good job even though it may be a long and difficult road ahead, stay on course. There are many of us who are praying for you.

To answer Anon 12.11am, I have full confidence that if God so leads TTG to start a church, they will also walk their talk. By the fact that they have been supporting the work of AOG & BCM quietly and even many AOG pastors and BCM students did not know about it tells me that TTG have good leaders.

I was pondering on the difference between how pastors and christian on the street serve God especially with money. I read some time ago that in Calvaryland there is a plague on the wall that had PG's name on it. It was with the members & public money that Calvaryland was built but the glory goes to PG. I have not been to AOG council office but I wonder if that TTG's name is anywhere in a plague on their wall. You see the difference?

That's why I have confidence in them but I will not join you to ask them to start a church. There are many good churches and many superb pastors out there - you can walk in any of the other 99% churches and know that the other 99% pastors will love God's children unconditionally.

justdoit said...

Hello TTG, why don't you call for an assembly to address the issue of starting a church or not. Give voice to 500 others to say their peace. And once this matter is decided let's move on from there.

Too much hearsay or i believe or i think or i read etc etc have been written and all these only provoke deeper anger, hatred, resentment, bitterness, fightings; serving no purpose at all except exalting the DEVIL.

As it is now, no one knows if the churches are 1% honest or 99% crooked who can verify with facts?

TTG, you want to set things right? What's the best way? JUST DO IT! We have both resources and manpower.

We, christians and ex calvarites, need a church that stands on truth, transparency and Godly governance NOW more than the losts that need a church.

Let's us 'saved' ourselves first before we saved others.

September 21, 2010 12:57 AM

Anonymous said...

The BOD,Elders and the whole CC congregation had "SPOILED" these two PGs since 2004 & 2006 by celebrating their GRAND 30 anniversary with founder Church from South Korea at Sunway Pyramid banquet complete with a momento ?

I am glad I did not attend their Grand celebration as me and my poor family was prompted by the Holy Spirit to avoid the occasion as it looked more like worshipping the PGs as an IDOL ! I was already forewarned !

The PGs were no where to be seen and never appeared in my CC's vision ever since 2004 and 2006 in my prayers! All I saw in my vision were only the other Associate Pastors and Assistant Pastors running the CC services ! Ever wonder why PGs always used DVD video projection to appear in satellite churches? Spiritual Dissonance ?

I believed both PGs knew their times are up ! That was why they came up with their CIM plan!

I asked myself why the two PGs were still "running the SHOW" in CC & satellites almost every Sunday services since 2004 ? It did puzzled me then for a long time and now I know why our Good Lord God had revealed this vision to me!

Removing one Faithful Deacon and the faithful 400+ Voting members only confirm PGs FAILURE to " JUST Let Go " ! Can a person who has experienced God's First Love and who has touched the Throne of God behave like this ?

AOGM composing of many learned Pastors will never understand what I said and shared here! Only those gifted with the Spirit for utterance of Wisdom and Discernment of the Spirit will comprehend what are yet to come to pass! Has AOGM LOST her Focus in her own pursuit for excellence?

Anonymous said...

Anonymous justdoit said...
September 21, 2010 12:57 AM
September 21, 2010 11:18 AM

Next mention date fixed for 27.9.10 is to decide the earliest possible date set for TRIAL!

Let's wait for the imperfect Civil and criminal justice system to arbitrate the Case since the secular civil law has already been set in motion!

PGs, his legal counsel, etc, etc may have read and may come to know whatever you have proposed and then will their hearts be troubled ?

Just be patience for a little while!

wong said...

99% of all the churches out there are run by very good, honest, caring, loving, truthful, transparent pastors.

99% of all the churches out there are run by pastors and deacon and elders and leaders with good governance and abide by strict godly principles.
would the commentor qualify these statement? how many churches are there in subang jaya. petaling jaya ? have you personally audited their accounts?


or this commentary is aim at cc as the 1% ? facts please ..or is someone insinuating some schemes to start a new church ? or we are going to lose at the next court hearing ? or we dont have the numbers at the a g m ?

t t g..dont erase this questions, please !

genesispassion said...

talk is cheap write is cheaper ...justdoit said..i am agreeable that we should call for an assembly !stop all these toxic talk here...it running in circus..we all should meet

forTTGG said...

To Anon@september19,2010, U hv misread Anon@12.11am he/she is asking u if u r attending a church that practises T,T & GG. He/She makes no mention of if churches are not practising T,T & GG. Do not read too much in between the lines which most of the times produces quarrels and misunderstanding.



If u think u are attending a church that is of T, T, & GG please let us know we need to channel our finances there cos that will be the right thing to do. Isn't is?



What are we dispusting all this while is it not the correct way to handle money in T, T, & GG?



If it is, why the delay in setting up a church that can do that?



What calling and leading do you still want?



Remember, that guy from US, Bill ...who ferries street kids to church...what did he say abt calling...look at the needs around you that's the calling.



Not only we have a very urgent need but also a desperate one, a church that stands on TRUTH, TRANSPARENCY, GOOD and GODLY GOVERNANCE.



We do not need to show anyone that we can do it, we need to show ourselves we can. Are we willing? Do we dare? ( Hello, just in case, some out there thinks it's a challenge no it's not a challenge, do we have the gumption precisely.) TTG, what saith you???
September 21, 2010 11:25 AM

RCC or TTCC said...

To Bro Wong Hong Meng & 6 others,



Isn't it about time you lead us into something better? Yup, a church will be good, call it Renewed Calvary Church (RCC) or The True Calvary Church (TTCC) or whatever. Well, none of you need to be the pastor, we can always look for one. We can ensure T,T, GG is always practised as long as it is managed with our constant watching/advice. We have enough accountants, lawyers, experienced managers both in the secular and non secular fields/ministries.



Let us move on to greater things without losing sight on our original intention. Some says that we may get distracted. If we are so easily distracted then we might as well all stay at home and wait and wait and wait till the court grants us favour. Some says it's not the intention of TTG to set up a church, hey setting up a group of people then truly PRACTISES truth, transparency and good governance is more than an organisation. It is not our intention that ALL should practise T,T & GG church or individual or otherwise???



It is about time we address this issue maturely and seriously.



What is your take on this, Bro Wong @ 6 others?
September 21, 2010 11:53 AM

CALVARY TODAY said...

Responding to justdoit and the subsequent Comments. (We did not realise so many Comments were placed here while we were preparing this reply)


We appreciate your suggestion but we are not agreeable to your request. If you were at the 2008 AGM, you would remember that PG himself had made the members cast a vote against the members from holding “illegal assembly” outside of Calvary Church. What you are asking the supporters of TTG to do is to run foul with the church leadership, especially when the Church has already announced 1st October 2010 as the 2010 AGM date.

CT believes that it is not the TTG’s job to determine who is in the 1% or 99% (with reference to Comment by Anonymous, September 19, 2010 5:58 PM). However, we sense such a passion in you to want to start something when you said, “WE have both resources and manpower.” Since you used an “inclusive” term to the TTG cause, we suggest that you drop us an e-mail, share with us what God has placed in your heart and how and what role you can play in the TTG cause. Please also identify yourself and once we ascertain that you are genuine in wanting to see an end to this saga, we will forward your contact to someone who can help.

We like the pseudonym you chose, “justdoit”. TTG have been doing just that. From day one of this saga, as the Lord so directed and led, the TTG brothers and sisters have not counted the cost but they “just do (did) it”. Be assured that they will continue to “just do it” IF they feel it’s the Lord’s prompting and leading.

To give all our readers a little feel of what the TTG brothers and sisters have been trying to do and are still moving on to do, but in the Church context, please read The Star article published last Sunday in their Starmag section highlighting, “Christians & Politics”. We have downloaded the said article and is available for you in Berita Calvary or you may login to the Star Online to read.

Anonymous said...

.....especially when the Church has already announced 1st October 2010 as the 2010 AGM date.

Which date has the Civil Court lifted the interim injunction that was granted to TTG against PGs & BOD as defendants on convening the AGM ?

27-9-2010 is only to fix new date for Full Trial!

Will that action by PGs and BOD to convene an AGM on 1-10-2020 be classify as Contempt of Court ?

Old time member said...

wow justdoit, I hope you will contact CT team soon and start the action going but I doubt he/she will do it. Anyway who knows, anything can happen.

Let's meet outside the church on 1st Oct and have a candle light vigil as planned the last time but not carried out as the AGM was cancelled.

Even if we cannot go into the church, we can sit outside and listen.

Why should we start another church? Calvary Church does not belong to PG, the APs or any of the deacons. It belongs to OUR HEAVENLY FATHER. It belongs to our LORD JESUS CHRIST. We are co-heirs with Jesus for everything that belongs to God.

Just because our family house is dirty because of years of neglect in cleaning does not mean we just pack up and leave and go buy another one and let trespassers occupy the family home. NO! We stay and do spring cleaning. It may take hard work and lots of time but what's the matter. Time is what we have. What are we in a hurry for? We do not need the Church to feed us. We only go once a week. What have we got to loose.

If I don't see PG, his pastors and deacons "kan cheong" about this, why we want to get so excited. Relax! Inhale! Exhale! Sit back and wait and watch.

Holidays coming soon. Go take your family for holiday. Go with friends and enjoy a good meal. Buy your favourite car. Renovate your house. We all should have plenty of savings since we already TOTT.

Follow like what PG is doing - go family holidays, eat out in posh restaurant, shop for Christmas presents in class this year and bless your family and friends with something special.

Trust in Lord, Rejoice in Him for He will vindicate us - all the axed members. Meanwhile, we must wait patiently.

justdoit said...

Thanks for the comments to my suggestion.



Since you have disagreed to my suggestion i rest my case.



However, before this suggestion fades away allow me to make some observation to your comments.



Yes, i was there at the 2008 AGM and remember the casting of votes against members holding assembly outside the church premise.



My passion??? We share the same passion about wanting TRUTH, TRANSPARENCY & GOOD GOVERNANCE in the church. Only that we assembled ourselves and just do it instead of relying on others.



Every time an email is sent or a press release about us, we christians are looked upon as nothing peculiar quite ordinary when it comes to money. Christians or not possess the same traits of swindlers when money is concerned.



Today, now there is a need before us, what is that need? The need to be the light in TRUTH, TRANSPARENCY & GOOD GOVERNANCE. We, TTG, have all the means but we choose to remain just a voice.



Isn't it about time that we move to next level....ACTION.



We demand T & T & GG from CC and indirectly all other churches and now when we can truly practise it we don't have the gumption.



Call for an assembly and let 500+ speak this will be the beginning of TRUTH, TRANSPARENCY & GOOD GOVERNANCE!
September 21, 2010 2:55 PM

WHITE SIDE said...

An Evil Act

To all & sundries, Please never forget how PG & BOD,
DISMEMBERED the BODY of CHRIST with the removal of Voting & associate members by unconstitutional means

They are absolutely RUTHLESS. An outright defiance to Jesus' commands that a 'shepherd' would love & feed his flock. Worst still, in this instance, he "killed" them off because they had the boldness to stand up to expose his devious ways, which he could no longer hide.

One has to be blinded by the Prince of Darkness not to be able to discern the truth from the lies of PG.

Judgement Pronouncedd said...

7 REINSTATED by High Court, Upheld by Appeal Court.

All calvarites, please tell me, doesn't the verdict of the Courts showed that the "re-classification" of these 7 Plaintiffs to their Voting Member status proved Prince Guneratnam & BOD have acted unjustly?

And if they still have any fear of GOD left in them, they would realised from this JUDGEMENT that they ought to restore all the 400 affected VM & AM to their original status. (it was after all a class action, but they slyly used 'technicality' to do the unthinkable-repeating their sinful act1)

ALAS, so they actually showed they want to fight "nail & tooth". Are they Christ centred?

Let's hope NECF and AOG, can see the just Judgment of the Courts and would give wise counsel to them.

Or are PG & BOD's hearts so black and hardened?
Do they not ever think the Wrath of God is real?

Let's hope all God fearing Calvarites will be bold at the AGM to stand in unity to right this injustice committed by PG & BOD.

Anonymous said...

What is the new Early date fixed for " Pleadings and FULL TRIAL "?

Anonymous said...

(1)on 28.9.10,Plaintiffs' lawyers informed the High Court that the Plaintiffs wish to convert the OS to a Writ, which if successful, will mean an open trial with witnesses from both sides testifying in Court.
(2)Court has fixed the next mention on 2.12.10 and informed that the Plaintiffs' application to convert the OS must be submitted by that date.
(3)Let's KEEP Fasting & PRAYING FOR GOD'S WISDOM TO BE UPON ALL THOSE INVOLVED IN THIS CASE.
(3)A Writ for an open trial is the Best way for both sides to "Tell the TRUTH"!
(5)May I know how many TRIAL lawyers TTG have engaged to plead the case? Trying to get more assistance from Christian lawyers to help out if needed!

Yet another lie said...

I was informed that one of the plaintiffs went to collect the CC Annual Report this afternoon at the CC office in Damansara Perdana. The sister at the reception counter called Foong Ling and told her that this plaintiff would like to collect the annual report. The message relayed was there is NONE! NO MORE! HABIS! BO LIAU!

Unhappy with the answer, this plaintiff insisted to speak to Foong Ling personally. When Foong Ling came out, the answer given was the same, "NO MORE Annual Report." Felt rather strange that a "BIG CHURCH" (self proclaimed by PG & gang) like CC do not print enough annual reports to be given to its members, the plaintiff asked, "I'm sure there must be at least one copy in the church office." To this, Foong Ling answered "NO"!

Now listen to this... listen to this... This is the best, mother of all lies. She asked the plaintiff, "did you bring the letter to collect the annual report? We've sent to all members." Kah kah kah... The plaintiff told her that the plaintiff's correspondence address have not change for the past I don't know how many years!

You see, like the saying goes, the fish rots from the head. When cheating and telling lies become a habit for the "head", the rest would follow. They don't even blink their eyes. There is just no guilty conscience, what more Christ-like values. Sometimes I just wish the story of Pinocchio would be so true. Ha ha ha.

Ok, ok, I'm sure you want to know the rest of the story. The plaintiff insisted a copy and Foong Ling has no choice but to provide. But not until tomorrow morning. So the plaintiff would be going back. And he said, "when I return to collect the report, I'm going to tell her I'M BACK!"

Aiseh man, kononnya BIG CHURCH, WORLD FAMOUS, SP WORLD ACKNOWLEDGED, but could not provide a copy of the annual report to its voting member! Malu sajalah.

Remain True TO God said...

It does not really surprise me that this happened! Foong Ling, who was a BCM graduate has not really lived up to her Christian calling...she chose to succumb to the deceitful control of the PGs, choosing to fear man and not God!

“Liars begin by imposing upon others, but end deceiving themselves”

Any AGM News said...

Calvary Today,
Please let us know what happened at AGM last night. We have been reclassified to inactive members list so not allowed to attend AGM.
We have been praying for God's intervention to happen... and trusting that God is working something beyond our imagination!

Anonymous said...

The AOG started off well.But over the years they have gone astray. Now its all about big buildings, titles and of course- how much $$ can you contribute.Not how many souls you can win)Many of them are just arrogant chaps hiding behind "Rev" titles. In my opinion- they have ambition but little brains.They would not amount to much in a secular setting.God has already begun the sifting.The whole system is diseased. I have moved on to a smaller God fearing congregation. VJ Chandran

Yet another lie said...

I'm sure you want to know whether the plaintiff did receive the copy of the Annual Report or not. Well, the plaintiff collected a printed copy and not photostated, nicely put in an envelope. Foong Ling said she managed to get a copy for the plaintiff. Kah kah kah.

You see, from no more to suddenly managed to get a copy. When will these people wake up from their spell? When will they realize that they are being oppressed by none other than their own so called sp? When will they repent? Lies after lies. As usual PG lied again during the agm last night. It's scary to know that this has become habitual and a trend in Calvary Church.

Anonymous said...

SP- step down before its too late. You are not above the law.You have a cult like following of Rev. Jim Jones & David Koresh.How did you come to this level? Commanding another Christian to get out of the church???? humiliate them in public????There is no servant heart in you right now- Satan is now using you to hurt others.

PRIDE GOETH BEFORE A FALL.