Wednesday, September 17, 2008

Questions from a Matured Heart

This comment was posted by one of our readers. We post it here with permission.

Dear Administrator,

I give permission to have my comments posted as you see fit. However, I want to stress this and appreciate if you would add it to my comments - that I am not against BOD or any of the pastors and neither am I part of the TT team.

Dear Hong Meng,

Thank you for sharing the history of Calvary Church. However, I believe the motivation that caused you to write this article is actually in connection with the announcement of the Thanksgiving Dinner to be held on October 2008 at the Sunway Convention Centre for the Calvary Family.

My comment is this: I think that whether Calvary Church is 40 years or more, is not the fundamental issue that should be focused on. In the light of the current state of affairs in the church, concentrating on this issue could be a distraction from the main issues that are still not addressed. Besides history is always written from a person's perspective and many times, historians find out that history can be faulty in certain points due to the writer's point of view. Documentaries that we watch in ASTRO, do at times speak about how the truth of a matter is far from the history that we popularly know.

Even in the Bible, the Synoptic Gospels stands as good examples (at least that is what I think I caught from my pastors at BCM.) Each book was written to specific audience and what values that they held dear to their hearts and minds. It also took in their culture which really is not much different in how we deal with the world today. What the apostles did was to enter the world of the audience and explain GOD's truths and principles as they would understand. Let me explain that the authors did not bend God's fundamental truths but used illustrations, object lessons and explanations that their audiences could understand.

I am sorry, Hong Meng, but I fail to grasp what point you are trying to bring across to us in detailing the history. What I fear, glancing from the comments that have been posted in response to your article, is that people have now been left with an even poorer image of Sr Pastor. I am not supporting him but if we were to walk in another's shoes, do we want people to do this to us? In my heart, I hope that this was never your intention and from what I know of you, I don't believe it ever was.

The real issue that I think should be questioned is this:

Why is Calvary Church holding a Thanksgiving Dinner when the church has not settled many outstanding issues and conflicts that are present today?

Can anyone tell me if the steps that the BOD mentioned at the EGM are already in motion? I believe that it has been almost what a month or so since the EGM?

Yes, we are to constantly give thanksgiving to God - because thanksgiving is a form of worship. But then, is the Church forgetting the attitude and spiritual criterias that comes with corporate worship? When we give thanks personally, we come before God and acknowledge that all things have come from Him, that He is working all things in our lives. Generally, but not a must, a visible and acceptable expression that follows from a heart that gives thanks - is to lift our hands, sing our songs of praise and worship and also to give of our belongings. I believe that many will agree that these elements are present in both personal and Corporate Worship.

Yet,are we forgetting something else? That love for our brother and making peace is a very important part of the Corporate Worship of which Thanksgiving to God is part and parcel of. Do read the articles from bibletools.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Library.sr/CT/PERSONAL/k/803/Offerings-of-Leviticus-Meal-Offering.htm and cgg.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Library.sr/CT/PERSONAL/k/809/The-Offerings-of-Leviticus-Part-Four-Peace-Offering.h...

So, right now, my question is this:

Why are we having a Thanksgiving Dinner when there are so many issues outstanding at the moment?

Does one throw a party if there exist conflict in that house? Sure, there will those who say don't look to the circumstances but look to God. Yeah, but are being overly theological (and perhaps overly spiritual?) in saying this. Theology is given to us so that we may internalize the truths of God and put into practice in our daily lives?

So, with questions unanswered and parties not yet answering them satisfactorily; when there are shadows of doubts lurking in the corridors of Calvary Church and in the hearts and minds of the people - will someone please explain why we are having this Thanksgiving Dinner?

To be frank, the issue at hand is about the proper handling of money - in terms of accountability, transparency and integrity. And "giving to God" is one of the outward expressions of worship to God in thanksgiving - how can the members be expected to reconcile this?

Someone please help me understand this?

Next, when there is such a crisis in church, shouldn't we be putting on our "spirit of mourning" and appealing to God to intervene and end the crisis?

When Israel went through "civil war" after Solomon's death - was there a celebration party of thanksgiving? I know that some people will talk about Jericho and so - hey, but I have also been taught by my pastors, that singular events cannot be considered "normative" events.

Again, this is my 2sens worth - I apologise again if I have sounded harsh and this writing offends anyone. I do not write to spite but to ask questions that float in my mind - than let them fester in my heart and to gossip with others.

God bless everyone!

Diana

46 comments:

CALVARY TODAY said...

winds of change said...

Diana,

I think that's a fair opinion. I also wonder why is it that the church is having not just one, but 2 big celebrations as if all is well and nothing is wrong when in reality, so many issues have not been solved yet...it looks to me like denial and a 'ignorance is bliss' mentality.

SEPTEMBER 17, 2008 8:02 AM

CALVARY TODAY said...

doubting thomas said...

they just in hurry to raise fund.last canival they raise 700 k after expenses. now they raise 450 k gross before expenses.they dont see what damage is being done thus far.

lets watch the dinner now. it is indication of disatify members and their protest in silent. i say this not to spite but to let all know results indicate the level of trust in the BOD n the pastor of the church.

SEPTEMBER 17, 2008 10:03 AM

CALVARY TODAY said...

2 cents said...

it could be just because they want to "enlighten" the tension among church members by creating "fun activities".

or

they don't want members that are "not involved" to feel "left out", resulting in zero church growth just because the tension is still on.

or

they want to show other churches that CC still stands strong as a family even during an ordeal.

SEPTEMBER 17, 2008 5:19 PM

CALVARY TODAY said...

an advocate said...

Diana's questions make alot of sense, and the best people to answer would be the CEO & the BOD.
Let's hope they will learn to answer questions, for once, directly to the questions posed and not ignore totally or equally worse beat around the bush.

Until then, my guess is they have become PR experts, good spin -- painting a rosy picture to all, and let those who attend 'feel' good at and think all is well. ( when in fact it is sweeping things under the carpet--it's all very sad)

SEPTEMBER 17, 2008 10:40 AM

HM said...

Dear Diana,

Thank you so much for your comment. It immediately caused me to re-examine my motives. We can never be too sure that our motives are right and proper. Our hearts are exceedingly deceitful; and we have great abilities in rationalization which is getting our minds to make right what our spirits tell us is wrong. A clean heart and a constant spirit is what please the Lord and we cannot assume that we have them at all times.

The fundamental motive of my writing is to stimulate thinking and discussion. Your comment is proof of my motive. You read, think, evaluate and then commented.

What was my point in the article? At the KBU teh tarik just before the EGM we heard some snippets of our early history from Bro Robert Ng. The announcement alerted me to what you described; that history could be written from a particular perspective for some specific purposes. As you pointed out, history has to be rewritten as new facts are discovered. As the ASTRO programmes presented the new findings the motives of the original writer would also be brought into question. Why was it previously written like that? I did not explore or even speculate on the possible motives. I left that to the readers. My point, therefore, is to ask you to consider if history was being managed.

The answer would depend on who decided that our history should be reckoned from 1968 and not 1961. Calvary AOG was definitely in existence both in form and in substance from 1961. Was it Ps Jones who was the first pastor in the new building or Ps Guneratnam who came in 1972? If it was Ps Jones then Ps Guneratnam merely followed on the tradition. He just accepted the history as written by Ps Jones. But if it was Ps Guneratnam, then why?

This can be easily determined if the records are available. All that has to be done is to produce the records that show that it was Ps Jones who decided that the reckoning should start from 1968 and not 1961.

I do not write to cast others in bad light. I do not need to. The facts would do that. But I would also not withhold what I see as facts even if it should cast someone in bad light. I used to do that but no longer.

Would this overshadow the main issue? This is part of the main issue. The issue is not just about the CIM accounts. The whole issue of transparency, accountability and governance encompasses all that is happening in the Church.

Diana, you and I know that there are still problems and unresolved issues. Not the Board. They believe that with the explanations at the so called EGM all our questions have been answered. It is back to business as usual. So the celebration should continue.

HM

Anonymous said...

I would really like to know what happened or what actions has been taken by the church after the EGM?

Secondly, Sis. Grace and Lisa, did both of you receive any reply from the BOD with regards to your letters?

Thirdly, anyone of you have seen and read the two reports and recommendations from the external parties?

Thanks.

KK said...

I am sorry, Hong Meng, but I fail to grasp what point you are trying to bring across to us in detailing the history. What I fear, glancing from the comments that have been posted in response to your article, is that people have now been left with an even poorer image of Sr Pastor. I am not supporting him but if we were to walk in another's shoes, do we want people to do this to us? In my heart, I hope that this was never your intention and from what I know of you, I don't believe it ever was. Quoted by Diana.

First, I thank Diana for her comment. It really enlighten me to think more clearly towards the whole messy situation in CC.

To Bro Hon Meng,
I have roughly the same question as Diana. I know this is a sensitive issue to even mention here, cause it may trigger many to anger. But I have to ask cause in bothers me.

I copy Diana words above cause my question in link to it.

My question is. When TT members are fighting for the transparency of the CC account for the interest of thousands of CC members, why TT member has to go th the extend to writes articles, sent out mails & etc that cast a very poor image towards SP & his deacon?

I want to believe this is not the intentions the TT members has when they shares their views here. What scares me is the readers responds & comments they left shows that they are having a very bad image towards the SP & deacons.

By doing this, will it grant us transparency & accountability TT member are fighting for? Tell me if I'm wrong, that this is the way to succeed the transparency we long for?

I sincerely thank TT members for their bravery to stand firm on their ground. I see wonderful result we never witness before in last EGM. I know the TT member will continue their work to change the constitution of CC. I wish to support the TT members, but at the expense to casting more bad images to SP. My conscience & conviction does not permit to support the TT members.

I don't mean to upset anyone here. It's just my 2 cent view here.

By the way, before anyone reply me. I still anticipate responds concerning the question I have. All readers, you don't have to encourage me in anyway. I'm not at the edge of being stumbled by at these. Thank God that my God is so strong.

joe black said...

kk to note your concern i am in sink with you .please remember all the comments made here does not represent the TT group. maybe some do have a bone to pick with SP but remain undercover. i do agree some comments are quite personal and malaicious
yes another wrong does not cause the first wrong to be repair.
i prefer to be classify as one who is seeking for the truth and going back to fundementals .... what a christian profess to be i e remain truthful in deed and thought. let our yes be yes. if HM facts are proven to be wrong then we should rebutt his claims otherwise lets correct the records.
i do not subscribe to accepting facts just because it come form someone that hold a spiritual title. i dare you to tell him he is wrong if proven to be wrong.

just in passing most if not all of the TT group are mature christian who has being in church for many many years. they are personal friend of SP. infact some have direct access to him. most have serve in leadership position with the church for many years.they have try in all ways and means to try to resolve all this in private. They have met with SP on many occassion pointing out the need to repair the problems. If this blog is damanging to SP . the TT group has not done this with malice but again to expose the truth . some other has taken advantage of this blog which we cant stop.it does prove one thing i e it shows how unhappy some people are towards him. this could help him guage his popularity among his sheeps. Most if not all the TT member wish it does not have to get this far. They only plea to SP is to repair the problem and let truth prevail.
if i may on behalf of HM is to bring the truth to the surface.

AM I 40 YEARS OLD OR 47 YEARS OLD . THE BEST PERSON TO ASK IS MY MOTHER.

they can be many opinions but always one truth.

GO ASK THE MOTHER WHO GAVE BIRTH TO CALVARY CHURCH DAMANSARA HOW OLD CALVARY CHURCH IS?

NOT

THE END

YET.

Anonymous said...

By commemorating 40 years of CC history and NOT 47, the church leadership is actually NOT recognising the labour of love by our pioneers who laid the foundations for our beloved church, both spiritually and physically speaking.

Let's thank God for these pioneers, many of whom are still faithfully attending CC today.

Let the truth prevail. God will surely be pleased.

In Christ alone. WW

sad said...

why always half truths? the leadership will say it is not a lie, but it is not the truth either. we want truth!

A said...

Sometimes in order to understand the present, we need to remember where we came from.

Sometimes when a family is in conflict, the best thing to do is get everyone together to have some fun and perhaps find common ground.

The issues we face now will not be solved by a series of emails, a blog on the net, General Meetings or Commissions. It will be solved only when we can come to the table as equals who want God to be sovereign in this situation.

I think this is the best time for such an event.

The church needs to remember its heritage in order to embrace its destiny.

a said...

One more thing ...

The organizers or this event are getting the 40 years thing from that little inscription in DH.

That plaque has been there for years and no one had issues with it. This year does in fact mark 40 years from that plaque.

Perhaps someone should have done a better job of explaining this to everyone. I don't think there was any intent to sideline those who were here before. If anything, perhaps its just a little careless that this has not been mentioned yet.

In any case, I think that if we have this celebration now for 40 years (counting from the dedication of DH) then perhaps we should have a 50 year celebration in 3 years time with Glad Tidings.

Two big parties in 3 years is good, no?

SPinocchio said...

Celebration???? when the youth are still very hurt, disillusioned and find no meaning in serving???? Many are still wounded after EGM and non of the leaders are helping or getting them out of the pit.
Now I have reservation sending my kids for youth.Used to make sure they go for youth but now feel more relief if they do not go for youth.Cos they are just get a criminal lawyer and tell us that transfer of funds to personal account without the members knowledge is O.K.
Thou shall not covet and thou shall not steal does not apply here? not in church!!!!!
MORALLY, what are we teaching our kids???? We have taught them not to take things without permission.Now the kids turn around and asked Why SP can do it?
Do we want our kids to grow up and follow SP footsteps???
Will SP generation be bless with his doings?
My mum told us to do the right things. She is not perfect and not a christian but had guided us well. Her children are all very blessed and is all because she had always tried to do the right thing. I would rather follow her footsteps and not our shepherd in the church.
Do not tell us any more lies with the funds or Pinocchio nose will grow loooooonger

C said...

Dear spinocchio,

I understand where you come from. Indeed, the youths are deeply hurt at what's happening in church.

I'm one of the youth leaders in church and I've been very frustrated and it got me to a point where I didn want to serve anymore. Everything was just not working anymore.

But, what's happening in youth HAS NOTHING GOTTA do with the issues in church. The youth leaders, very burn out themselves, have been working very hard to make sure the youths get sufficient spiritual food.

I encourage you, spinocchio to continue to bring your children to youth service. I can assure you that whatever learnt in youth service is PRINCIPLES from God.

Do not let issues like this stop them from seeking God. After all, the reason why we are all going to church is to seek Jesus.

I hope you understand where I come from and I apologize if I sounded harsh or rude. I hope no offense is taken.

Thank you!

ww said...

Responding to "a" on the inscription at CC DH premises. The plaque, if I remember correctly, merely states that CC DH was dedicated to the Glory of God on ____ 1968. To me, it's with reference to the PHYSICAL CHURCH PREMISES at DH, not the fellowship of believers who form the local assembly called CC that originated from our mother church in Jalan Sayor (I think Joe Black is referring to this mother when he said "We should ask our mother")

Let's be very clear on the issue at hand. To understand, let's illustrate with an example.

Assuming 20 believers led by God's Holy Spirit get together to form a fellowship called ABC Assembly on 1January 2009. ABC Assembly meets in rented premises because the believers can't afford to build or buy their own building. They do this for 11 years and finally, after much "blood, sweat and tears", they manage to raise enough funds to build their own church building. The building is completed 2 years later.

On 1 January 2021,they happily move into the new building and, being faithful Christians, put up a plaque to dedicate the new sanctuary to the Glory of God, so that the future generation of worshippers will remember history and the labour of love of the pioneering group.

How old then is ABC Assembly. Is it 1 day old or 13 years old? You decide on the answer.

Well, this stimulating discussion is more than splitting hair on the age of CC. To me and many concerned Calvarites (TT group included), there are fundamental issues (eg. gratitude, transparency, truth, etc) involved. Let us not sweep this supposedly "trivial issue" under the carpet and say "hey! nothing to do ah, why argue over CC's age". It's more than that. Think again.

In Christ alone. WW


In Christ alone. WW

Anonymous said...

like c, i myself am a youth. i assure you that the youth have no part in teaching the young people to "grow up and follow SP's footsteps".
Please do not stop the us, youth from growing as everyone is already greatly hurt from what has already happened and happening. The youth desires to grow even more through this ordeal so please continue to support us.
Just as you've all said that the youths are the next generation, we need your support to grow into that generation that God wants us to be.
Hope every reader here would understand.

ccily2 said...

Dear Diana & kk,
I appreciate your viewpoints but I feel that Hong Meng's article on the actual age of Calvary Church is of great significance, apart from the issue of S.P.'s image. What it did (HM's article) was to reveal the truth about the early days of Calvary Church which every member has the right to know. The wrong impression Calvarites have been given for so many years is that Calvary Church was single-handedly built up by S.P. - does it sound like S.P. was seeking for personal glory when the church celebrates its 40th Anniversary? In all fairness, isn't S.P.just building on 'another man's foundation' but wants to claim it for his own?

When Japan re-wrote the history of WWII, it was to "cover up" their hideous past, to put themselves in a better light. Japan's action was condemned by the world because they were obviously resorting to 'blatant lies as a cover up'.

If S.P.'s intention is to re-write the history of Calvary Church to give members a false impression, is it really ethical? Is it truthful? Aren't 'servants of the Lord' required to be truthful, humble, transparent and honest? Or have they become 'too big and too important' to observe basic Christian ethics?

The Trampled Rose said...

Dear ccily2,

Thank you for your comments and I can understand your viewpoint. However, the point that I was trying to bring up was this: between the 2 issues - the history and the aim of the thanksgiving dinner - which would be a primary issue and which the secondary? I see the question as primary and the history as the secondary. (I am not undermining the importance of HM's article at all.)

My reason for this is simple. The history is the past in relation to the present but the reason for the thanksgiving has greater bearing with regard to the present circumstances and happenings. I hope that helps explains where I am coming from. I guess, we are all coming from different perspectives - none of them really wrong just different.

However in response to a's comment that the thanksgiving is one way to unite us. I beg to differ.

This is because psychologically, it is unrealistic to expect people who have doubts in their minds and unanswered questions in their hearts to be in the mood to celebrate.

People who feeling disillusioned, confused, unsure and some even upset that the comfortable atmosphere that they have come to expect in our church is no more cannot be expected to rise up suddenly from their mire of "negative" emotions to stand up and celebrate. Mind you, I use the word celebrate and not "rejoice" because each have different demands and effects.

So, a - may I perhaps suggest that if the organizers had wanted to unite us - that they would do better with PRAYER - since unity in prayer in the midst of disagreements, conflicts and disillusionment - would be really, the only matter that any Christian would agree upon?

Do, think about it.

God bless
Diana

Spikeee said...

Aunty Diana,

i understand what you are saying about the current priority in the 2 issues at hand.

I guess that's the purpose of this blog - to inform members of everything and anything that is happening in light of the whole fiasco. (Although some might have a higher priority than others)

In answer to "a" , i'm struggling to understand how having to pay RM85 per person for a 'celebration' dinner is going to help me feel united with the rest of the church.

It's going to help me feel united with the part of the church that is of a higher level income, that's what it'll do.

RM85 is such a hefty sum for a 'celebration' dinner. Although it's a nice time for everyone to be able to dress up and mingle around, once again, CC has thrown around it's lavish and it's upper class mentality (which flows down from the SP?) .

I feel for those who struggle to make ends meet and yet want to be a part of the "family" celebration. (Would it mean that those who don't come/aren't able to afford will feel left out from the "family"?)

SM said...

If the 40th anniversary celebration is for all Cavarites, then the church should hold the dinner event for free. For a family of 4(above 13 yrs old)to go for the dinner as it is, it will cost RM340. That's BIG sum for the average Calvarite. Bear in mind, many members are just average income earners who are already finding it hard to make ends meet. So the event appears to be for the richer ones.

sz said...

What is RM85 honestly today? A RM100 in the wallet actually feels more like a RM50. I think it depends on how you see it.

Anonymous said...

sz, if one is a high earner, you're right..RM85 is peanuts. But for the majority of members who are just low to average income earners, every ringgit counts and RM85 per pax is a hefty sum to pay. No wonder outsiders label our church a rich man's church.

SPinocchio said...

Dear all
This thanksgiving dinner is not just for 40yrs celebration, is more for SP's Tan Sri tittle lah!!
Aiyo, the dinner cost RM85 because you are paying for all the pastors and their family share ma.
The token also included in the cost of the dinner leh.
The VIP share also included in the cost.

Fleeced said...

S.P. always talks about money, doesn't he? Well, he did say, every so often, "The money is in your pockets, Calvarites!" What he DIDN'T say is,"But, I have so many ways of getting YOUR money into MY pockets, you foolish people!"

karl said...

i do not doubt that no one man is perfect. and i encourage you all to keep our pastor in prayer. THere is only so much that we can do or say. but if there really is something wrong in his heart that has to be addressed. it is ONLY the Spirit of God Himself that can bring about conviction. Humanly it is not possible. Only Jesus can touch Sp's heart and make him what He wants him to be.

My opinion is that it's not right to try and convince other people about his weaknesses because that's not going to change him. In fact the Bible says that we have to be very careful not to allow talk that does not edify proceed from ourselves.

And when we have done everything that is humanly possible, it does not justify talking like this about Him. I myself notice many weaknesses in the leader's above me but it is never in my position to talk about it to other people. It would cause a loss of respect. Who are we to decide whether or not He should resign...

but i think it's fully in our power to decide to pray PERSISTENTLY that God would do the work that ONLY HE CAN ACCOMPLISH IN OUR PASTOR'S LIFE...

when it seems like doing everything right isn't working.. let's not resort to the wrong.

blessings and love,
karl

confuse said...

dear friends,
i say friends because all of us are having pack of differs information. until and unless we are open to face the real truth we will always be unsure what we are beliving in .

i came from a non christian family . my grandma was very religious so was i. i even attended sunday school in a buddist temple. i was seeking for truth. i know there is a God but i dont know who He is. i use to argue with christians about having to go to heaven only through Jesus Christ This christian humbly remind me i wish i can agree with you but the facts remain that it is the only way .please go searching for the truth. which i then did. today i am still a christian because i know that it is a fact and i had experience God. the truth prove itself all the time.

The reason i bring all of you to this thought is that can we remind ourselves that the basic and fundementals of christianity is TRUTH
do not muddle the truth.can we search through all this opinion and get to the truth of the matters.
IF MY MOTHER CANT REMEMBER MY BIRTHDAY THEN ASK ALL MY RELATIVES. if i may add to Joe Black comments
it is not about 40 or 47 it is about what is the truth.
the church has even use lawyers and accountants to give us an opionion of which till todated no members know what is their basis of the opinion.The BOD had also accepted such finding as truth.

Back to basis. why cant the church face issue squarely and deal with question instead of justifying .We are all human and to err is human. many issues have being raise and solution to it has being suggested by the "malicious people". instead the church take a defence mode.
i wonder i wonder why is a church who profess to know the truth leave by the truth has so much contravecy. Where else can we find truth. shall we try the temple.
Jesus has alway make truth so simple and even unlearned people like me can understand.
Can we just be like Jesus , leave by the truth. if you are unsure of the truth dont speak it.Truth will always speak for it self.

Can someone tell me specifically is the following facts or opionion

Has funds being transfer to SP personal ministry?

Does the BOD have knowledge of such transfer?
PS before Aug 15 some BOD had profess that they have no knowledge of it

The money cant be return even though it was wrongly given ( wrongly given because the member have no knowledge of it )

yes legally we were told it cant be return but why cant this mistake be corrected?

If SP is willing to return the money is it wrong then to receive it.

Which is better . to keep what was given wrongly or to return and correct a mistake. I beg everyone to answer that question to themselves and not to anyone else if which we will find the truth


my thoughts
in law it is the spirit behind it . "to peirce the veil" look like the is a conspiracy to remove the money from church to be given to someone.Even now being discover there is not attempt to correct the wrong.
Now we know the truth yet we dont want to abide by it.

i conclude that even knowing the truth that it is 47 and not 40 the Church now attempts to justify it instead of correcting it.

Church please help all of us to deal with the truth.

Fed-up said...

Enough is enough.

There has to be forgiveness, reconciliation and healing in our beloved Church or else our church would be destroyed. This is the Biblical way. There is no other way - accusations and defences will not work.

Deacons do your your duty - you need to act.

Broken hearted said...

To: Karl
Besides praying, some given gifts to speak, to write, to act, to mediate, to .....more..Many Christian always thot dun speak, let God be God.. calvary church had many prayer emphasis week, emphasis and emphasis...no change yet "one" so wat shall we all do? i leave it to your intelligence, you shud go personally to lay hand and pray for our SP lah...

karl said...

broken hearted you're missing my point. because if the problem here is senior pastor and His attitudes.. then don't you agree with me that, as i mentioned. only GOD can change a man's heart?? if laying hands and praying is what you see fit then i encourage you to do so! nothing a man says and does can make him change unless God doe sthe work.. i'm not talking about sitting around and letting god be God.. i'm talking about sticking to what is right. and edifying. even when it seems like there's no results in our eyes..

truly broken hearted said...

karl
no missing of your points.. ppl who seemed to try to mediate seemed to tell ppl what to do, how to be Godly,spiritual, but when requested them to go pray for SP, begin to justify.. as you sed, give respect.. hello, respect has to be earned..

karl said...

That statement of yours is exactly where i think we are all so badly mistaken. The respect i speak of is not about one for senior pastor. But the fact that God has placed Him there as our leader. As long as He is our leader then we OWE him that respect as a man of God regardless of ALL circumstances.

Sweeping statements made in public do NOt edify the body of Christ. Can anyone clearly say that it is God's will for him to be removed as senior pastor of calvary church? if any of you can say for certain then carry on.

I am dissapointed in so many of you.. who, very much like Job's three friends, found no basis to REFUTE our senoir pastor but had instead CONDEMNED him with their words. Some one please read JOB 32:3

Anonymous said...

Karl, I hear u…but unfortunately, I cannot agree with you. A leader is one who has to EARN his respect as he cannot expect ppl to respect him if he does NOT respect the people below him first. Based on SP’s witchhunting and misuse of the pulpit to condemn those who question, how can you expect ppl to respect him? He as a leader shld first practice compassion and grace but if he is not doing this, how can we respect him? Are you telling me tat even if you know that yr leader has sinned but when you confront him of the sin quietly, instead of admitting his sins, he condemns you in public, that you will still respect him becoz he is yr leader? Pls do not use Job to describe this situation as it is a completely different scenario. Job was found blameless by God, but SP is anything but that sadly.

"toa zia" said...

Hi anonymous
"toa zia" and "gam xia"--in Manglish is "thankyou dan terimakasih"--you said it well for me to speak my mind to Karl.

Weng said...

Karl,

No point to discuss further. I rest my case to God. Let God handle all the questions people have in this blog. We are in no position to make any different here. Only God can convince the heart of man.

I find our comments can only stimulate more debate. More arguements. Maybe our comments & debates even generate more readers to this blog to read our debate.

Sorry to all t if I offended you in any way. Pls forgive me. I don't want to have anything to do with this blog. From now on.

winds of change said...

Weng, your opinions as well as Karl's are more than welcome in this blog. I guess it's how you take the public's replies, just as you are questioning the TT group's actions (which is fine as this is a free country), you should then also be opened to being questioned back on your questions...no? I guess if you expected everyone reading this blog to 'fall down in repentance' after reading yr comments, then sorry to say, that will not be achievable unless what you are saying makes sense to us.No need to ask for forgiveness as no offence was taken.God bless.

karl said...

wasn't intending any offence guys.. Gosh this is pretty scary now. and Job was blameless but he was not without sin. which is why this i think is a good parallelism. i know that senior pastor has his weaknesses. but all i'm saying is.. will this blog be able to change him?? is anyone getting my point?? i don't need you guys to fall on your faces and repent.. that's not what i'm chasing after. it's just painful that we're talking about him like there's no hope for him.. we need to seek refute for the man.. not condemnation.. is anyone understanding me?? please?

i have heard much about SO MUCH improvements that can be made to the church.. and i AM IN FULL SUPPORT of all that the TT crew has brought up... don't anybody get me wrong on that. i know we're all working to see a renewal in our church.. but is this the way? will talking about him make an impact? and if yes... how will that happen?.

.plus i really wish i had an idea who i'm talking to..

Anonymous said...

king saul was God's anointed. David never laid a finger on Him even though it was so clear that Saul had lost God's favour. David NEVER talked about Saul's weaknesses/.. and God brought His own punishment upon Saul. .

WHo are we to call out and name the punishment of what we deem is wrong in another man?

we are called to encourage our brother when we see him do wrong.. but no one says we need to spread Word of what we know of another.

Anonymous said...

Attended the AG Charity dinner for the fund raising for the Educare and Widowcare. Basically to help out the kids of the AG pastors.

Many AG churches were present and given the opportunity to contribute to the fund but how come this national AG activity was not announced and encouraged by Calvary Church to attend.

It was announced that the more tha 85 % of the AG pastors' kids have no finance at all for their education but compare that to our Calvary Church. What a big contrast!!

eye opener said...

Hey anonymous
was at the dinner too...i am very touched by the few PK(pastor kids) who shared the testimony and who benefitted from this fund, they had now grown and become successful young adults, praise the Lord for the good work, especially, PS Sinnadurai--his compassionate heart! and there was a small church contributed 30+K to this fund, amazing!! The fund raiser intend to raise RM 1,000,000--and they have to work hard to raise it mem!!!It is indeed an eye opener for me!

Anonymous said...

job is blameless before God. but was he blameless before men? noone knew, it was between him and God. if his friends knew, they wouldn't condemn him as well.

sinnersavedbygrace said...

Read Chapters 40 - 42 of Job....& you will find that Job was not that blameless! He repented in Chapter 42, lah!
Haven't you heard? "There is none righteous, no, not one..." (Romans3), and this includes S.P. as well. Like D.K. said, he does have a 'money problem'!

Calvarite said...

Everyone of us is faced with at least ONE of the temptations of the 3 G's:
1. Gold, i.e. money
2. Glory, i.e. fame,position, power, making a name for himself
3. Girls (no need to explain this!)

S.P.'s nemesis is...."Gold" & "Glory"!

Anonymous said...

yup, thats exactly what i wanted to point out to Anonymous above:
"Pls do not use Job to describe this situation as it is a completely different scenario. Job was found blameless by God, but SP is anything but that sadly."

not siding anyone but everybody is not blameless so don't just make it seem like SP is the only one who sins despite what he has done.

Anonymous said...

anonymous, I was the anonymous who wrote that. however, i did not mention that only SP sins, did I?

Act on behalf of God said...

I'm totally agree with you. Who say God's anointed can't be touched. Especially those who disobey God. Those who say that are really old fashion/thinking Christian. Let us act on God's behalf. Let's bring out more juicy story of the bad deeds of SP & deacons. The more bad things I hear what they have done wrongly. The more I feel the urge to expose them under the sun.

I support the TT member's view to find out the truth. Lets make some noises that scares SP & deacons of our existence. We uphold the truth by acting on behalf of God. I love this blog. In this blog I could let out all my discontentment with our church leadership.

I love all the bad story of SP, Deacons, & etc. I believe it is 100% true. To be honest, let skip the process of confronting SP & deacons of their sins. Let us jump straight to be God's tool to bring judgment & condemnation. The Bible say that God's judgment is hardest to bear, let give them some taste of hell.

Anonymous said...

To:Act on behalf of god
I’m wondering if you are actually KL Boy since you sound like him. Anyway, let’s not be sarcastic abt all that is happening. If you want to be sarcastic, I hope you will first reveal yr identity to the readers first before going on with what you are doing. Those who are really genuinely supporting the TT Group DO NOT want SP or deacons to taste hell, so my suspicions are that you are just trying to make the TT Group look bad with your comments. Let’s be mature about this as I’m sure you are an adult.

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