26 Sept 08,
Dear Administrator,
I have read the articles & Comments posted over the last week, and wish to respond as follows :
KUDOS to DKAY (2sen worth of Opinion posted 16 Sept 08)
Kay, I wish more will ask the questions you did (a-f). All that you said
and asked made so much sense—it showed clear understanding of the
real issues we are confronting and what indeed is at stake:
“displaying high integrity in attitude, behavior and actions is the one expression that shows everyone - we belong to Christ.”
I commend your direct to the point questions & comments. Sorry, if I had been one of those who “were not direct enough ” ( at EGM) in posing our concerns & questions. Nevertheless, I did write a 14 Pg ‘Unanswered Questions at EGM’ posted in the Blog, which I believed I have asked very direct questions and given frank views.
)Unfortunately neither the BOD nor Sr.Pastor-CEO would give any answer, not even to a single question! (But non-reply it seems is a policy, it was the same for all previous Letters I have written in which no answer to any question was ever given)
Your so called ‘2sen worth’ -- on the contrary is a gem of a contribution. In fact I hope what you shared would be able to open the eyes of those who are still not able to grasp the actual issues, to see clearly what concerned Calvarites are pursuing.
By the way, I would strongly urge you to send it as is to the BOD & SR. Pastor-CEO & all pastors directly via email or by post. ( Because, they are likely to miss reading it here)
I would like to highlight the few thoughts you shared, which in every sense & intent are exactly the views I & those sincerely who are pressing on for this cause, have about them. Quote:
“d) CIM - I find the matter of the "seed fund" a very strange matter. Personally, Sr Ps and Ps Peter have told BCM students year in and year out that we are called by God and that we live by faith. That when we are called to do what we destined to do, we depend on God and HE will provide for us. We have been told that we are not to look to the church and depend on it to support us. The money that is given from faith promise to support us is minimal so that we might learn to live by faith.”
“Honestly, I struggled with great mental "dissonance" when I heard Sr Ps's reply because what he has said to BCM students and what he is doing for CIM is entirely different.”
“The money was given away in "secrecy" simply because of the failure of the BOD to check with the members if the members were ok with gift. So, in principle - it is a tainted gift - faulty in the name of integrity. The monies should all be returned to the Church accounts.”
“For me, right now, my pastor has a "money" issue. I am really sorry but I can't help but see him as clinging on to a gift, one that are not supported by members. Even if there just be 800 or 2000 voices against this gift - is that not already the shrieking siren of bells for a servant of God that all is not right?”
( It appears more than money issue to me, it’s covetousness: the latest Calvary News 3-pg advertisement says a lot.)
“If Sr Ps believes that GOD will supply all his needs and walks the talk, then I hope that Sr Ps will let this money go.”
“And since Ps Wirachai Kowae's name was mentioned at the EGM, let me say that his ministry - Compassion of Christ - is so different from what our BOD have done for CIM. Compassion of Christ survives on its own.”
(I’m so glad you bought up this fact. I feel indignant how BOD could bring themselves to compare white with black. I do not wish to *elaborate here, but enough is said how church funds have been used to make the latter look good.)
SETTING UP OF A TRUTH COMMISSION
(An extract from Unanswered Questions)
The questions raised herein merely touches the surface of the serious issues the church faces, and are by no means exhaustive. There is just too much to ask since the issues go way back in years. And whatever has been discovered to date is just the tip of the iceberg. Besides CIM, other major issues surrounding CCC and Calvary Land, such as their financial and ownership status among others, need thorough investigation too.
What has been covered under the scope of Mr. KK Wong and the forensic accountants was limited in scope, and the former was not investigative in nature. *There are many people within and without who possess material information and firsthand knowledge, and can be asked to testify and reveal facts on the various issues.
Hence, the proposed setting–up of a TRUTH COMMISSION is essential. Until the church comes clean with the truth and not sweep matters under the carpet or simply whitewash them, Calvary Church cannot claim nor can expect to be a good testimony to the community.
It is simply untenable for the church to remain in its present state.
WHAT DO WE DO WANT FROM ALL CONCERNED MEMBERS?
1.Would you sign-up for the call to set up the TRUTH COMMISSION ?
2. Would you sign-up for the REVIEW of CHURCH CONSTITUTION?
3. Would you Sign-up for the *Stipends and Benefits of the Pastorial Board
to be made known?
* the Stipends/EPF /Socso as stated in 2007 Report stands at RM 2,870,602
(and this excludes the EXTENDED MINISTRIES’ i.e. the Head of Department
& their staff account for another approx RM500,000.
The total would be over RM3.3 MILLION.
Liza Low
Saturday, September 27, 2008
Wednesday, September 24, 2008
All These Mud-Slinging
Things are really getting heated up here. We would like to remind all Concerned Members, to be careful of what we say in our Comments. Please do not mention anything that is personal with regards to people who are not involved in this whole Saga. We have intentionally deleted a Comment from this blog which we felt was attacking persons who are really not a part of and should not be dragged into this whole discussion.
Let us all stay focused on the IMPORTANT ISSUES HERE. This comment sums up our thoughts quite simply. Thanks Chic Kee
Chic Kee said...
I am glad SS brought out something I always wanted to say:
“Yes, it is sad that all these mud-slinging by SP supporters, TT supporters and self proclaimed neutral parties are being seen by the whole world. The amazing thing is that when I check around, I found out that neither SP or any pastor or any deacon has approached the TT group to try to stop all this blogging and find an amicable solution to resolve the conflict. They don't seem to care at what's happening. so the mud-slinging goes on....”
Has anyone seeing and replying to this blog ever thought of this:
1) SP being in the centre of the controversy, our shepherd, who has a higher calling and knows he should lead us – HAS NOT COME OUT AND NIP THE TROUBLE IN THE BUD AND EXPLAINED EVERYTHING.
2) Right at the start when SP sensed something was wrong, should he not being our spiritual leader meet the “truth seeking” group and his Deacons and sort things out. If what SP perceived is not wrong, should he not for the sake of peace and for Christian love, do something about it?
3) The so called “illegal” meetings outside the church, this blog and all the slander being posted would and should not have happened at all.
4) All those who posted their remarks on the blog should show love for each other – pro or against SP.
5) The person who advocates people to go to another church (naming some) because they could not be spiritually fed in Calvary should not have suggested that. Fancy driving sheep out of the fold. Instead of checking and putting things right – why were they not fed spiritually but rather an easy way is chosen – GET OUT!
This would never be our Good Shephard’s way as He left the 99 to seek the one that is lost. Imagine a child in a family who rebelled against the father as she is not happy with what the father is doing with certain things. Would the father not talk to his daughter first and if everything fails, would he the father ask his daughter to get out of the home??
SO WHEN IS SOMEONE GOING TO PERSUADE OUR PASTOR TO START COMING OUT OF HIS SHELL AND DO HEALING, FORGIVENESS AND RECONCILIATION AND SAVE OUR CHURCH???
If changes need to be made – make them!! Let us not wait until God comes down in judgment as He is the one that can see the motives of every heart.
If the administrator wishes to put this as a main item instead of a comment, please feel free to do so.
I pray that God will help everyone to think right and resolve things SOON!
September 22, 2008 8:40 PM
Let us all stay focused on the IMPORTANT ISSUES HERE. This comment sums up our thoughts quite simply. Thanks Chic Kee
Chic Kee said...
I am glad SS brought out something I always wanted to say:
“Yes, it is sad that all these mud-slinging by SP supporters, TT supporters and self proclaimed neutral parties are being seen by the whole world. The amazing thing is that when I check around, I found out that neither SP or any pastor or any deacon has approached the TT group to try to stop all this blogging and find an amicable solution to resolve the conflict. They don't seem to care at what's happening. so the mud-slinging goes on....”
Has anyone seeing and replying to this blog ever thought of this:
1) SP being in the centre of the controversy, our shepherd, who has a higher calling and knows he should lead us – HAS NOT COME OUT AND NIP THE TROUBLE IN THE BUD AND EXPLAINED EVERYTHING.
2) Right at the start when SP sensed something was wrong, should he not being our spiritual leader meet the “truth seeking” group and his Deacons and sort things out. If what SP perceived is not wrong, should he not for the sake of peace and for Christian love, do something about it?
3) The so called “illegal” meetings outside the church, this blog and all the slander being posted would and should not have happened at all.
4) All those who posted their remarks on the blog should show love for each other – pro or against SP.
5) The person who advocates people to go to another church (naming some) because they could not be spiritually fed in Calvary should not have suggested that. Fancy driving sheep out of the fold. Instead of checking and putting things right – why were they not fed spiritually but rather an easy way is chosen – GET OUT!
This would never be our Good Shephard’s way as He left the 99 to seek the one that is lost. Imagine a child in a family who rebelled against the father as she is not happy with what the father is doing with certain things. Would the father not talk to his daughter first and if everything fails, would he the father ask his daughter to get out of the home??
SO WHEN IS SOMEONE GOING TO PERSUADE OUR PASTOR TO START COMING OUT OF HIS SHELL AND DO HEALING, FORGIVENESS AND RECONCILIATION AND SAVE OUR CHURCH???
If changes need to be made – make them!! Let us not wait until God comes down in judgment as He is the one that can see the motives of every heart.
If the administrator wishes to put this as a main item instead of a comment, please feel free to do so.
I pray that God will help everyone to think right and resolve things SOON!
September 22, 2008 8:40 PM
Tuesday, September 23, 2008
My Simple August 15th 2008 (EGM) by TS
Wow, things are really going around or rather heating up. Did not know that there are so many differing opinions and strong views out there. Calvary Today Administrators thank you all for your honest and frank opinions. We view all these siblings debates as just debates, nothing more. In your debates and comments, please do not let your emotions overcome you and turn these debates into a feud. But we believe Calvarites are matured people. We can have differences and yet be united in one body. Unity in diversity, that's what makes life wonderful and exciting.
However, we now want to bring you back to IMPORTANT ISSUES, and one of the main reasons for this blog. How do we move on from here? Here's a little recap on what happened at the recent EGM which we borrowed from "The Spikeee" because it is simple to read. The young writer of this summary is not one of our known TT Members. (Actually there is no register of TT members. We don't even know how many "sympathisers or supporters" we have and it does not matter because there are no different camps. We are all still part of one house, our Father's house called Calvary Church)
My Simple August the 15th 2008 by The Spikeee
Extraordinary General Meeting (EGM)
I'll try to capture the highlights of the EGM with what i deem as interesting details.
By the time we reached, the EGM just began with the introduction of Reverend Dr. (Honorary) Pastor Delmer Guynes, as the guest Chairman-cum-Moderator for proceedings. The EGM was also observed by the General Superintendent of the AOGM, Rev Ong Sek Leang. We were sitting much further behind, hence we could not really see who else was there. Proceedings began with a presentation of 3 points in the agenda by the various deacons and interspersed with professional comments and explanations by the two independent investigators (that were hired by the BOD) , one Lawyer KK Wong and the other , a Forensic Accountant.
Summary (and i agree with the summary):
1) CIM and CARED are not liable to be sued or to sue
2) There is no basis for any forms of suspicions of CBT nor Dishonesty
3) All legal investigations were done via a poring through the documents (as provided). There were NO verbal investigation with the said parties.
4) There are also no irregularities discovered in the accounts and financial statements
But,
5) The Forensic Accountant noted that there was a lack of transparency and accountability and governance in the way the accounts were tabled and handled.
T.B.H.U. (Things Begin to Heat Up)
Announcing the beginning of the Q&A Session. Once again, i'm just going to highlight a number of questions or incidents that i feel are worthy to be remembered and taken note of.
Incident #1
Premise : Datuk KC (very calmly, i have to add) asked for a clarification to see if the Minutes of Meetings (that were provided) were the genuine original copies.
Verdict : KK Wong (Legal Inquirer) admitted that there was no forgery inquiry towards the materials used for his legal investigation.
Incident #2
Premise : A variety of concerned church members inquired as to the thin-line seperating CIM and CC, and why there was a need for two seperate entities to perform the same objectives, and finally on the issue of the initial seed fund as 'donated' by the Missions Department to CIM
Verdict : I don't believe there were any real answers given due to the fact that the deacons kept reusing different ways of coining the same message in a variety of creative manners. Generally, the large amounts of monies transferred into CIM is not justified both spiritually nor morally.
Incident #3
Premise : The concerned church members who wanted to voice out were constantly reminded to ask just 2 questions, although the BOD mentioned that this EGM was a forum for discussion and a voicing out of opinions and questions. I do understand why the Chairman had to halt things, but to the point of turning their microphones off?
Verdict : The BOD disappointed many by saying one thing (agreeing that the EGM was a forum) but followed through with only allowing 2 questions per person. Datuk KC Lim at one point asked the Chairman "Mr. Chairman, wouldn't you want to help keep the word of the BOD by allowing more time to speak?"
Incident #4
Premise : Disillusioned Faithful Elders Issue :
A number of elders (members who have been faithful for many years) spoke out that , although they have been faithful in giving and in serving all these years, they are now disillusioned when they see how the money they faithfully give (to God) has been used (misused?).
Ronnie Lew proceeded by asking why so much of the money was spent of Travelling Expenses
Verdict : Senior Pastor himself responded by saying that ministry requires travelling.
Alas, this was a very feeble explanation, as almost everyone knows that you don't require RM78k a year to travel 4-5 times? That's some expensive ride, bro!
Incident #5
Premise : Were they really malicious allegations? (As alleged by the BOD during the after-service announcement in all the church services)
Issue : A sister explained that they have been fasting and praying for months now, and that she wants to hear directly from the BOD on whether what they have done (prior to the statment by the BOD) are truly Malicious?
Verdict : 'Shockingly', none of the deacons said anything (concrete) , possibly for fear of the repercussions of their allegation, or the misuse of the term 'Malicious'. A younger lawyer then spoke up saying that he read an email (which was later found to be sent only AFTER the statement by the BOD) which was truly Malicious.
Some of the interesting (some questionable) things that happened throughout the EGM was :
1) The vocal support (applauses, cheers, shouts of encouragement) that a large majority of church members gave to the concerned members' questions regarding transparency, accountability, truth, morality and good governance.
2) The vocal "support" that the front portion of the sanctuary gave to a number of those who were asking totally legit questions by telling them to Shaddap! And the most interesting thing that happened in this EGM was ... *drum rolls* The parking lot in Tongkah Building was packed to the brim and so was the sanctuary! It was even fuller than 2nd service (lately)! Wheee!.
Update Conclusion
I feel that it was a very important night for the church, because after yesterday, it seems that a large majority of the church realize what needs to be done, and less people are on the fence today. From the applauses and vocal agreement, we are able to see that there is a much larger group of church goers who agree on the need for transparency, accountability and the likes.
Also, it is worth to note that although the legal and forensic advisors concluded that there was nothing wrong or irregular (now it's slightly different, with the minutes of meetings unverified of its' originality), it does not mean that the moral and ethical issue is resolved.
The issues of the heart cannot be resolved that easily. It needs to be resolved by the leader himself. I'd like to say that i do believe that God was in total control of everything that happened. I believe this because i believe that in anything good or bad, God is ALWAYS in control.
Nothing happens without God allowing it to happen. Yes, i'm saying that all the things said (and not allowed to be said (example, the first lady who went up to give her observations was disallowed from speaking by the Chairman and a large majority of a boo-ing congregation)) and all the things that have happened is brought to the fore because of the prayers of the people for Truth.
All this has happened not because of any ambitions (no, i don't want to take over the church) but because everyone just wants the church to begin thriving in the work of the Lord all over again!
My simple August the 15th is now over!
However, we now want to bring you back to IMPORTANT ISSUES, and one of the main reasons for this blog. How do we move on from here? Here's a little recap on what happened at the recent EGM which we borrowed from "The Spikeee" because it is simple to read. The young writer of this summary is not one of our known TT Members. (Actually there is no register of TT members. We don't even know how many "sympathisers or supporters" we have and it does not matter because there are no different camps. We are all still part of one house, our Father's house called Calvary Church)
My Simple August the 15th 2008 by The Spikeee
Extraordinary General Meeting (EGM)
I'll try to capture the highlights of the EGM with what i deem as interesting details.
By the time we reached, the EGM just began with the introduction of Reverend Dr. (Honorary) Pastor Delmer Guynes, as the guest Chairman-cum-Moderator for proceedings. The EGM was also observed by the General Superintendent of the AOGM, Rev Ong Sek Leang. We were sitting much further behind, hence we could not really see who else was there. Proceedings began with a presentation of 3 points in the agenda by the various deacons and interspersed with professional comments and explanations by the two independent investigators (that were hired by the BOD) , one Lawyer KK Wong and the other , a Forensic Accountant.
Summary (and i agree with the summary):
1) CIM and CARED are not liable to be sued or to sue
2) There is no basis for any forms of suspicions of CBT nor Dishonesty
3) All legal investigations were done via a poring through the documents (as provided). There were NO verbal investigation with the said parties.
4) There are also no irregularities discovered in the accounts and financial statements
But,
5) The Forensic Accountant noted that there was a lack of transparency and accountability and governance in the way the accounts were tabled and handled.
T.B.H.U. (Things Begin to Heat Up)
Announcing the beginning of the Q&A Session. Once again, i'm just going to highlight a number of questions or incidents that i feel are worthy to be remembered and taken note of.
Incident #1
Premise : Datuk KC (very calmly, i have to add) asked for a clarification to see if the Minutes of Meetings (that were provided) were the genuine original copies.
Verdict : KK Wong (Legal Inquirer) admitted that there was no forgery inquiry towards the materials used for his legal investigation.
Incident #2
Premise : A variety of concerned church members inquired as to the thin-line seperating CIM and CC, and why there was a need for two seperate entities to perform the same objectives, and finally on the issue of the initial seed fund as 'donated' by the Missions Department to CIM
Verdict : I don't believe there were any real answers given due to the fact that the deacons kept reusing different ways of coining the same message in a variety of creative manners. Generally, the large amounts of monies transferred into CIM is not justified both spiritually nor morally.
Incident #3
Premise : The concerned church members who wanted to voice out were constantly reminded to ask just 2 questions, although the BOD mentioned that this EGM was a forum for discussion and a voicing out of opinions and questions. I do understand why the Chairman had to halt things, but to the point of turning their microphones off?
Verdict : The BOD disappointed many by saying one thing (agreeing that the EGM was a forum) but followed through with only allowing 2 questions per person. Datuk KC Lim at one point asked the Chairman "Mr. Chairman, wouldn't you want to help keep the word of the BOD by allowing more time to speak?"
Incident #4
Premise : Disillusioned Faithful Elders Issue :
A number of elders (members who have been faithful for many years) spoke out that , although they have been faithful in giving and in serving all these years, they are now disillusioned when they see how the money they faithfully give (to God) has been used (misused?).
Ronnie Lew proceeded by asking why so much of the money was spent of Travelling Expenses
Verdict : Senior Pastor himself responded by saying that ministry requires travelling.
Alas, this was a very feeble explanation, as almost everyone knows that you don't require RM78k a year to travel 4-5 times? That's some expensive ride, bro!
Incident #5
Premise : Were they really malicious allegations? (As alleged by the BOD during the after-service announcement in all the church services)
Issue : A sister explained that they have been fasting and praying for months now, and that she wants to hear directly from the BOD on whether what they have done (prior to the statment by the BOD) are truly Malicious?
Verdict : 'Shockingly', none of the deacons said anything (concrete) , possibly for fear of the repercussions of their allegation, or the misuse of the term 'Malicious'. A younger lawyer then spoke up saying that he read an email (which was later found to be sent only AFTER the statement by the BOD) which was truly Malicious.
Some of the interesting (some questionable) things that happened throughout the EGM was :
1) The vocal support (applauses, cheers, shouts of encouragement) that a large majority of church members gave to the concerned members' questions regarding transparency, accountability, truth, morality and good governance.
2) The vocal "support" that the front portion of the sanctuary gave to a number of those who were asking totally legit questions by telling them to Shaddap! And the most interesting thing that happened in this EGM was ... *drum rolls* The parking lot in Tongkah Building was packed to the brim and so was the sanctuary! It was even fuller than 2nd service (lately)! Wheee!.
Update Conclusion
I feel that it was a very important night for the church, because after yesterday, it seems that a large majority of the church realize what needs to be done, and less people are on the fence today. From the applauses and vocal agreement, we are able to see that there is a much larger group of church goers who agree on the need for transparency, accountability and the likes.
Also, it is worth to note that although the legal and forensic advisors concluded that there was nothing wrong or irregular (now it's slightly different, with the minutes of meetings unverified of its' originality), it does not mean that the moral and ethical issue is resolved.
The issues of the heart cannot be resolved that easily. It needs to be resolved by the leader himself. I'd like to say that i do believe that God was in total control of everything that happened. I believe this because i believe that in anything good or bad, God is ALWAYS in control.
Nothing happens without God allowing it to happen. Yes, i'm saying that all the things said (and not allowed to be said (example, the first lady who went up to give her observations was disallowed from speaking by the Chairman and a large majority of a boo-ing congregation)) and all the things that have happened is brought to the fore because of the prayers of the people for Truth.
All this has happened not because of any ambitions (no, i don't want to take over the church) but because everyone just wants the church to begin thriving in the work of the Lord all over again!
My simple August the 15th is now over!
2 Sen Worth of Opinion by DK
This comment was posted by one of our readers. We post it here with permission.
Dear Administrator,
I give permission to have my comments posted as you see fit. However, I want to stress this and appreciate if you would add it to my comments - that I am not against BOD or any of the pastors and neither am I part of the TT team.
I am a Calvarite who has been and is still concerned with what has been brewing over these past months in our church, particularly the matter of the CIM, CARED and Missions accounts. Due to unavoidable work commitments, I missed the AGM but decided that I would attend the EGM, hoping that the BOD and Snr Ps would clear the air and the queries that I wanted answers to.
Sadly, this did not happen. What I saw was really a use of the legal law and financial law on the members - to prove that no "technical mis-handling of funds" had occured. Using such tools available is fine but I wonder if the BOD realise what they were telling the members? Being told that any money that I give to God is "absolute gift" is perfectly fine - if GOD is directly handling the money because HE is perfect and I trust HIM with my life.
However, hearing this from a church, governed by mortals with limitations - is like telling me that once I give the money, then whoever receives it can do what he, she or they want with it. I believe this - "In GOD, we trust; others, show me clean hands, hearts and minds!" I can't accept this legal information because we are human beings and we must be accountable to those who give especially in financial matters - for too many servants of God have fallen by the wayside when they gave in to the temptation of money.
In fact, at BCM, where I studied my first degree, our lecturers - most of them pastors, have always told us to always practise accountability and if it was possible, do not decide on money matters - let that be handled by those who are professionally trained to do what is right and have controls that show you are constantly practising accountability and transparency.
Next, at BCM when I learned the subject Church and Law and later about Church Management, my lecturers have constantly reminded us that we should always pay attention to the Spirit of the Law and not the Letter of the Law. You may have the law on yourside but as Christians, we have a higher calling. We need to look at the Integrity issue of the entire matter. If not, how does that make us different from the people who do what is right legally or financially, but do not know Christ?
I believe displaying high integrity in attitude, behavior and actions is the one expression that shows everyone - we belong to Christ. And that is what I had hoped that the TT group would have brought up that night. I guess that a member or two did try - but they were not direct enough.
What I want to know is this:
a) CIM - It is a personal ministry of Sr Ps and at its launch, we were told about the RM30K seed money. How come the BOD can inform us of this but giving RM200K - is not informed to the members? Does the BOD consider that RM200K is so small a figure ( mind you - an average person does not earn that much in a single year! ) that it should not be tabled at the AGM? And it is kept quiet for 6 years? Ironic, don't you think that RM30K is announced by RM200K is kept silent? Why? Do the BOD realise that omission(failure to speak the truth) is also a wrong? Have not one of them ever checked their hearts and spirits in the past 6 years - each time they authorised the payments?
b) CIM - Before CIM was formed, disbursements of all designated funds were through the Missions Dept and they had been doing this for many years. I can't reconcile the fact that once CIM came into the picture, the Missions Dept lost its capacity to do what they have been doing for the past decades? So, why the switch? What purpose does it serve? Saying that they have the same objectives will render that one of them - Missions Dept or CIM as obselete?
c)CIM - BOD said that all designated funds given, even though from CARED or CIM - recipients were told, the gift was from Calvary Church - my question, why the roundabout way of doing something? Why not go direct? What was the objective for doing this?
d) CIM - I find the matter of the "seed fund" a very strange matter. Personally, Sr Ps and Ps Peter have told BCM students year in and year out that we are called by God and that we live by faith. That when we are called to do what we destined to do, we depend on God and HE will provide for us. We have been told that we are not to look to the church and depend on it to support us. The money that is given from faith promise to support us is minimal so that we might learn to live by faith.
So, my question - why is there a need for such a large "seed" fund? Sr Ps says that we need money to do ministry - correct - then should the way be - to pray and God will provide. Sr Ps could come before us anytime with the burden that God put in his heart, and I believe that Calvarites would respond generously. Honestly, I struggled with great mental "dissonance" when I heard Sr Ps's reply because what he has said to BCM students and what he doing for CIM is entirely different.
And since Ps Wirachai Kowae's name was mentioned at the EGM, let me say that his ministry - Compassion of Christ - is so different from what our BOD have done for CIM. Compassion of Christ survives on its own - of course, Romyen Church, the BOD with the ok of its members, does give support -but much of the funds for ministry comes from Ps Wirachai's sharing of his vision to those he meets and the books that he writes and sells. And I have great respect for PS Wirachai because he has many times, brought out his own money to fund the ministry of Compassion of Christ than to look to Romyen. Many times, he tells me that God never fails.
e) The accounts show that much money in CIM was used for travelling - it did not have details but quite a substantial sum was shown. I may be wrong but as far as I know, when one is invited as a speaker to crusades, the chances are that your air-ticket is paid by the organisation that invites you. The same go for accomodation, though food and etc could be another matter. If the church that invites you is small, then, yeah, being more financially able, you, the speaker would pay for some of the expenses or so. Many times, however, when you speak and pay your airfare, there is a high possibility that the church would take an offering for you to help meet your expenses. Usually, when one speaks, it is often for a few churches too.
So, my question - why the high expense account for travelling overseas? It is fine with me if the money was used to build churches, to build orphanages, etc - but I was really surprised to see "travelling" as the large expense on the account.
f) Monies in CIM and CARED - I think that saying the money is an absolute gift and even vouching that it will be used for ministry is not good enough. Why? The money was given away in "secrecy" simply because of the failure of the BOD to check with the members if the members were ok with gift.
So, in principle - it is a tainted gift - faulty in the name of integrity. The monies should all be returned to the Church accounts. Then, the BOD can table this with the members - so that a consensus is reached and the gift is given openly. But this was not said nor did the BOD push for it at the EGM. To me, this matter has not been resolved.
There is a need for the BOD to regain their level of integrity with the members, like me and if I am not wrong - many similar ones. No one should call for your resignations - but seriously ask yourself, in all that you have done in respect of CIM, CARED and MISSIONS - have you done your duly best to protect the interests of the members who have put you there?
If you were an ordinary member, would you approve of what you have done? If you have doubts, then perhaps, you need to apologise and take that decision to vacate your seat, so that others who will do protect the interests of the members can occupy that seat.
Sr Ps too needs to regain his integrity and it starts with returning the money from CIM and CARED. For me, right now, my pastor has a "money" issue. I am really sorry but I can't help but see him as clinging on to a gift, one that are not supported by members. Even if there just be 800 or 2000 voices against this gift - is that not already the shrieking siren of bells for a servant of God that all is not right?
If Sr Ps believes that GOD will supply all his needs and walks the talk, then I hope that Sr Ps will let this money go. Hasn't Sis Petrina said many times at the altar? - Only when you let go of what you are holding, when you open your palms and look to God, can God fill your hands with more than you can hold!
That is my 2sens worth. Thank you and I apologise sincerely, if my words have been unduly harsh.
Dkay
September 16, 2008 3:03 AM
Dear Administrator,
I give permission to have my comments posted as you see fit. However, I want to stress this and appreciate if you would add it to my comments - that I am not against BOD or any of the pastors and neither am I part of the TT team.
I am a Calvarite who has been and is still concerned with what has been brewing over these past months in our church, particularly the matter of the CIM, CARED and Missions accounts. Due to unavoidable work commitments, I missed the AGM but decided that I would attend the EGM, hoping that the BOD and Snr Ps would clear the air and the queries that I wanted answers to.
Sadly, this did not happen. What I saw was really a use of the legal law and financial law on the members - to prove that no "technical mis-handling of funds" had occured. Using such tools available is fine but I wonder if the BOD realise what they were telling the members? Being told that any money that I give to God is "absolute gift" is perfectly fine - if GOD is directly handling the money because HE is perfect and I trust HIM with my life.
However, hearing this from a church, governed by mortals with limitations - is like telling me that once I give the money, then whoever receives it can do what he, she or they want with it. I believe this - "In GOD, we trust; others, show me clean hands, hearts and minds!" I can't accept this legal information because we are human beings and we must be accountable to those who give especially in financial matters - for too many servants of God have fallen by the wayside when they gave in to the temptation of money.
In fact, at BCM, where I studied my first degree, our lecturers - most of them pastors, have always told us to always practise accountability and if it was possible, do not decide on money matters - let that be handled by those who are professionally trained to do what is right and have controls that show you are constantly practising accountability and transparency.
Next, at BCM when I learned the subject Church and Law and later about Church Management, my lecturers have constantly reminded us that we should always pay attention to the Spirit of the Law and not the Letter of the Law. You may have the law on yourside but as Christians, we have a higher calling. We need to look at the Integrity issue of the entire matter. If not, how does that make us different from the people who do what is right legally or financially, but do not know Christ?
I believe displaying high integrity in attitude, behavior and actions is the one expression that shows everyone - we belong to Christ. And that is what I had hoped that the TT group would have brought up that night. I guess that a member or two did try - but they were not direct enough.
What I want to know is this:
a) CIM - It is a personal ministry of Sr Ps and at its launch, we were told about the RM30K seed money. How come the BOD can inform us of this but giving RM200K - is not informed to the members? Does the BOD consider that RM200K is so small a figure ( mind you - an average person does not earn that much in a single year! ) that it should not be tabled at the AGM? And it is kept quiet for 6 years? Ironic, don't you think that RM30K is announced by RM200K is kept silent? Why? Do the BOD realise that omission(failure to speak the truth) is also a wrong? Have not one of them ever checked their hearts and spirits in the past 6 years - each time they authorised the payments?
b) CIM - Before CIM was formed, disbursements of all designated funds were through the Missions Dept and they had been doing this for many years. I can't reconcile the fact that once CIM came into the picture, the Missions Dept lost its capacity to do what they have been doing for the past decades? So, why the switch? What purpose does it serve? Saying that they have the same objectives will render that one of them - Missions Dept or CIM as obselete?
c)CIM - BOD said that all designated funds given, even though from CARED or CIM - recipients were told, the gift was from Calvary Church - my question, why the roundabout way of doing something? Why not go direct? What was the objective for doing this?
d) CIM - I find the matter of the "seed fund" a very strange matter. Personally, Sr Ps and Ps Peter have told BCM students year in and year out that we are called by God and that we live by faith. That when we are called to do what we destined to do, we depend on God and HE will provide for us. We have been told that we are not to look to the church and depend on it to support us. The money that is given from faith promise to support us is minimal so that we might learn to live by faith.
So, my question - why is there a need for such a large "seed" fund? Sr Ps says that we need money to do ministry - correct - then should the way be - to pray and God will provide. Sr Ps could come before us anytime with the burden that God put in his heart, and I believe that Calvarites would respond generously. Honestly, I struggled with great mental "dissonance" when I heard Sr Ps's reply because what he has said to BCM students and what he doing for CIM is entirely different.
And since Ps Wirachai Kowae's name was mentioned at the EGM, let me say that his ministry - Compassion of Christ - is so different from what our BOD have done for CIM. Compassion of Christ survives on its own - of course, Romyen Church, the BOD with the ok of its members, does give support -but much of the funds for ministry comes from Ps Wirachai's sharing of his vision to those he meets and the books that he writes and sells. And I have great respect for PS Wirachai because he has many times, brought out his own money to fund the ministry of Compassion of Christ than to look to Romyen. Many times, he tells me that God never fails.
e) The accounts show that much money in CIM was used for travelling - it did not have details but quite a substantial sum was shown. I may be wrong but as far as I know, when one is invited as a speaker to crusades, the chances are that your air-ticket is paid by the organisation that invites you. The same go for accomodation, though food and etc could be another matter. If the church that invites you is small, then, yeah, being more financially able, you, the speaker would pay for some of the expenses or so. Many times, however, when you speak and pay your airfare, there is a high possibility that the church would take an offering for you to help meet your expenses. Usually, when one speaks, it is often for a few churches too.
So, my question - why the high expense account for travelling overseas? It is fine with me if the money was used to build churches, to build orphanages, etc - but I was really surprised to see "travelling" as the large expense on the account.
f) Monies in CIM and CARED - I think that saying the money is an absolute gift and even vouching that it will be used for ministry is not good enough. Why? The money was given away in "secrecy" simply because of the failure of the BOD to check with the members if the members were ok with gift.
So, in principle - it is a tainted gift - faulty in the name of integrity. The monies should all be returned to the Church accounts. Then, the BOD can table this with the members - so that a consensus is reached and the gift is given openly. But this was not said nor did the BOD push for it at the EGM. To me, this matter has not been resolved.
There is a need for the BOD to regain their level of integrity with the members, like me and if I am not wrong - many similar ones. No one should call for your resignations - but seriously ask yourself, in all that you have done in respect of CIM, CARED and MISSIONS - have you done your duly best to protect the interests of the members who have put you there?
If you were an ordinary member, would you approve of what you have done? If you have doubts, then perhaps, you need to apologise and take that decision to vacate your seat, so that others who will do protect the interests of the members can occupy that seat.
Sr Ps too needs to regain his integrity and it starts with returning the money from CIM and CARED. For me, right now, my pastor has a "money" issue. I am really sorry but I can't help but see him as clinging on to a gift, one that are not supported by members. Even if there just be 800 or 2000 voices against this gift - is that not already the shrieking siren of bells for a servant of God that all is not right?
If Sr Ps believes that GOD will supply all his needs and walks the talk, then I hope that Sr Ps will let this money go. Hasn't Sis Petrina said many times at the altar? - Only when you let go of what you are holding, when you open your palms and look to God, can God fill your hands with more than you can hold!
That is my 2sens worth. Thank you and I apologise sincerely, if my words have been unduly harsh.
Dkay
September 16, 2008 3:03 AM
