Tuesday, October 14, 2008

9th Update to CC Members

SP’S ELABORATION OF 40TH ANNIVERSARY DINNER

The previous Sunday at DH, Senior Pastor attempted to elaborate on the forthcoming 40th Anniversary Thanksgiving Dinner at Sunway Lagoon hotel. He started by poking fun at the AG Singapore for celebrating their 80th anniversary this year when they have been in existence for less than 80 years. He explained that when AG was first established in Malaya, Singapore was then part of Malaya. Singapore then separated from the Federation of Malaya and formed their own AG. Therefore if AG Malaysia is 74 years old, then AG Singapore cannot be 80 years old. Yet they chose to "add a few years" and celebrate the 80th anniversary.

SP certainly made a boo-boo with this anecdote because it is a case of the pot calling the kettle black. As you all know, he has mandated that our church celebrate the 40th anniversary instead of our actual 47th anniversary if we compute from the year Calvary Church was “born” which was in 1961.

He encourage the congregation to join the dinner to show gratitude and appreciation for God’s faithfulness to our church for the last 40 years. He is either implying that God had not been faithful in our first 7 years of history or he is saying that God doesn’t deserve any gratitude or appreciation from us for the first 7 years. If you had read Hong Meng’s article in this blog on the history of our church or spoke to the pioneer members like Robert Ng, Jenny Low or Tony Lee, you will know that the early years of our existence were not easy days. The church faced much persecution and hardship but during those 7 years of struggles, our founding fathers led by Dr Guynes and his team witnessed the deliverance, miracles and faithfulness of God.

Therefore, by celebrating the 40th Anniversary of Calvary Church, are we then not ROBBING God of 7 years of His glory? Please consider this before any of you happily join the celebrations. Give God His due Glory and declare to the world that He has been faithful for 47 years!

DECEIT AND HALF-TRUTHS

Deceit #1 – Thanksgiving or Fund-raising Dinner?

SP and his pastors have been promoting the above dinner as a celebration of our 40th Anniversary. If you study the dinner registration form carefully, you will note that all cheque payments for the RM85 per head dinner are to be made payable to the CCC.

The question that comes to mind is – Is this a celebration dinner of the church or a fund-raising dinner for CCC? There is no compelling reason why payments for the dinner should be made out to the CCC unless it is actually a fund-raising dinner for the CCC.

We heard through the grapevine that due to the poor response, our pastors and church staff have been desperately calling all leaders, ex-staff and our outreach churches (including those which are now independent) to join the dinner. One such church told one of our pastors that they don’t feel right joining our anniversary celebration and that church’s pastor was promptly told by our said pastor that it is actually a fund-raising dinner for our CCC!

Some of you may also recall that sometime last year, the CCC fund-raising committee had made mention of this forthcoming dinners on 22nd and 25th as part of their fund-raising program.

What we cannot fathom is why our pastors, deacons and SP have to resort to such deceit?
Or have they come to a point that telling half-truths, lies or being deceitful has become a part of them that they no longer have the conscience or discernment to differentiate right from wrong? Where is their honesty and integrity?

Deceit #2 – Congregation of 3,000 or 10,200?

This is extracted from Calvary Church’s website:-

CALVARY CHURCH was dedicated to the glory of God on 11 February 1968 through the efforts of dedicated missionaries. Rev. Tan Sri (Dr) Prince and Puan Sri (Dr) Petrina Guneratnam was the first Malaysian couple to pastor the Church. From a congregation of about 120 in 1968, the Church has grown, pioneered and established 32 daughter churches. Today, Calvary Church and her outreaches minister to more than 10,200 people.

Note that our church now purports to minister to 10,200 people. There were some debates in our blog on how SP can tell the world that we have 8,000 worshippers. None of our blog mathematicians could arrive at such a number. Now this declaration to the world takes the cake. All of you know that including all our supported outreaches and satellites, at most, we have a regular crowd of 2,500 to 3,000 people only, and the number is rapidly dropping.

At our last AGM, SP tried to explain that it is matter of perception. He argued that the then quoted number of 8,400 people included members of our outreaches which have since become independent. It is an illogical argument, to say the least. When an outreach has become independent and is no longer part of us, we cannot include their numbers to our own. If that ridiculous argument is accepted, then the First Assembly of God church in Jalan Sayur being our mother church will be the largest congregation in Malaysia. Calvary may not even come close to being in the 2nd spot since a few others have overtaken us.

WHERE DO WE GO FROM HERE?

We know this is on the minds of all of you who are deeply concerned with the current crisis in our church. When we started this blog, we had hoped that in our dissemination of information to you, all of you will respond with your views, comments and suggestions on the various issues raised and how to move forward. This, we must salute you, because you have done well. Of course, in any debate, there is bound to be some strong differing views and comments. Some comments by some of you may appear to be ”malicious” and “personal” but this is arguable. Using the words of our pastors, it’s a matter of perception. However, we believe that some of the indeed malicious comments are, although unproven, the work of certain church staff, deacons or pastors using pseudo names. Their intention is purely to discredit the integrity of the TT supporters. But we are not worried. We believe that all our fellow Calvarites are mature Christians who are spirit-filled and have the discernment to make the right judgment.

Coming to the action plans, the following are what we, either collectively, individually or as a small group, have done or considered doing or proposed to do:-

1. Stop Giving. Right after the EGM, we received many SMSes, emails and verbal comments from members that they will stop giving offerings, tithes, faith promises and CCC pledges. It is said that when church members are unhappy, they vote with their feet (go to another church) or vote with their wallets (stop giving). To this, we say, please don’t leave the church but you may stop giving, if you wish. But as to whether you should stop giving offerings or tithes or CCC pledges, we leave it to you and your conviction. Seek God for wisdom. We know of a number of members who have made themselves ‘Missions directors’ and they are using their funds well and personally touching lives. Of course, if God asks you to continue giving to Calvary, please do so.

2. Report to the Police. Several of us have met and spoken to the police. We have found out the reporting procedures, the investigation and prosecution process. We have been informed that we do have a case to take up but we have not put in a formal complaint. We feel this is an option of last resort and all of us are praying and seeking God for direction.

3. Report to the IRD. Similar to item 2, we have gotten the procedures and are now awaiting for one final piece of puzzle before we act.

4. Report to AG Council, NECF and WAGRA. We have been in touch with these bodies and are now awaiting their responses and debating on our next move.

5. Legal action. We have consulted lawyers on the various options available to us and will take the appropriate action in due course.

6. Publicize our cause. This is akin to “washing dirty linen in public” . There are 2 proposals namely holding a press conference or organizing a placard demo at the dinner venues in Sunway and Prince Hotel during the dinner times on 22nd and 25th October. These are not the most ideal options but may be worth considering. Bear in mind that it was the “washing dirty linen in public” which brought down great but fallen men of God like Jimmy Swaggart , Jim Bakker and many others. God needs to cleanse His church before revival can come .

7. Petition. This involves the gathering of signatures of voting members to requisite an EGM to remove SP and or the deacons. This could possibly be the most “cleanest” and least damaging option available to us. We plan to put this into action next month.

Some of you have expressed concern that the above actions may cause a split in our church. We wish to say that our church is already split and many have already left for another church. But God is the great Restorer, He will not fail us. Anyhow, we need to find a quick solution to the problem and therefore, we urge you to pray along with us and for God’s wisdom and direction so that we will make the right decision and bring an end to this saga.

God Bless.

278 comments:

«Oldest   ‹Older   1 – 200 of 278   Newer›   Newest»
Go for IRB said...

Well done. At least we know "actions" are being taken.

All the proposed actions are good but I thought you may want to go for the IRB (Inland Revenue Board) one since it will probably not affect the church but the persons involved.

Worth considering seriously.

Keep up the good work. At least we know that the perceived 'quietness' by the TT crew after the EGM did not mean that they have given up the cause.

Will be praying for God's hands on all these matters.

I'm 47 NOT 40 said...

Don't laugh at others lest you also laugh at yourself.

What a BIG BIG JOKE! SP poked fun at AG Singapore on their birthday when he himself can't count...or is it deliberate????

CC is 47 years old as a congregation (SP has always taught us that a church is NOT a building, but a fellowship of believers in our Lord Jesus Christ), yet he's hoodwinking us (although many of us are obviously smarter in counting than him) to celebrate only 40 years (building age) instead of 47 (fellowship age).

We need to uncover and reveal more LIES AND 1/2 TRUTHS.

Please DON'T laugh at others when you youself don't know how to count!

Dawn of new era said...

I believe SP's boo-boo is NOT his doing. I'm convinced that the Holy Spirit has confounded him to use the Singapore AG's illustration to poke fun at himself and to show to the world that SP's true colour.

Hallelujah. God is mightly and He has used His Spirit to reveal SP's action. TT members, you will all be vindicated, not by your actions but by the Holy Spirit Himself. This is the the dawn of a new era. We will trust Him.

God Deserves ALL the Glory said...

Give God ALL THE GLORY!!! Let's NOT ROB Him of 7 years of His glory?

CC is, I repeat, 47 years old. To those who still maintain it's a trivial issue - whether CC is 47 or 40 it does not matter - I solemnly appeal to you that IT DOES MATTER.

It's not about the age, rather it's really really about GIVING GOD ALL THE GLORY, not only part of it.

God showed His faithfulness to the pioneers of CC. Remember, SP & SAP are NOT pioneers lest you still think they are, although all of us thank God for their labour in building upon the foundation laid by our pioneering brethren.

There are many who have laboured for the Lord in pioneering CC. Let God have all His Glory for their labour of love.

Personally, as a long-time member of CC, I'm really saddened to see recent developments in CC. I first attended CC in 1982 when I was a student in UM. My wife and I were married in CC and my 2 children attended CC when they were babies and subsequently were baptised in CC. All these years, our family have served faithfully in CC. We love this church and we long to see the FULL Glory of God restored in this great church of God.

SP, I appeal to you. Do the right thing. Give God ALL the Glory, NOT just part of it. He really deserves it ALL. This is the cry of my heart, and my prayer for you and our church.

To those of you who are attending the Thanksgiving Dinner, my sincere appeal to you is to also thank God for the 7 lost years. Show your gratitude to Him.

To God be the Glory.

Very Inclusive Counting said...

Referring to CC website:

"CALVARY CHURCH was dedicated to the glory of God on 11 February 1968 through the efforts of dedicated missionaries. Rev. Tan Sri (Dr) Prince and Puan Sri (Dr) Petrina Guneratnam was the first Malaysian couple to pastor the Church. From a congregation of about 120 in 1968, the Church has grown, pioneered and established 32daughter churches. Today, Calvary Church and her outreaches minister to more than 10,200 people."

If my memory doesn't fail me, I remember last year the total no. of members was only +8k. You mean to say that in 1 year, it has grown by 50%. Praise the Lord!

Patrick Wong, kindly verify this figure. Have we also included the outreaches of our outreaches of our outreaches (4th generation), many of which are already sovereign churches.

For the sake of showing that we're indeed a megachurch, we are surely being VERY INCLUSIVE.

True Story said...

A very reliable source told me, in secret (hush-hush), that at one of the General Council's business meetings in 1998 or 1999 (not sure of exact date), one of the pastors attending the meeting was given a word from the Lord for SP. It was a rebuke, so he hesitated to say it out in front of so many people (you know, give him 'face' ?), but the Holy Spirit prompted him to say it! So this pastor with the gift of prophecy stood up & prophesied to SP, something to this effect, "Because you do not believe in signs and wonders, your church will not grow."Everyone at that meeting was startled, to say the least! I mean, SP was then the General Supt of A/G Malaysia! SP burst into tears, it seems!

I have hesitated to reveal this but, this shows how SP has also been controlling the church to the extent that Calvary Church do not have much signs & wonders. When Bernard Blessing was at Glad Tidings, there were so many manifestations of demonic activity, with healings & deliverances exhibited to the glory of God!However, when he was at Calvary, it was a let-down! Why? The spirit of unbelief reigns in Calvary because the head of the church, SP & SAP, do not allow the glory of God to be manifested.

Jalan Sayor observer said...

If we apply CC's "very inclusive" counting, then First Assembly in Jalan Sayor, Pudu could probably be the largest AG church in Malaysia, because they have 10,200 just from CC network. For those of you who are not in the know, CC is the "offspring" of the Jln Sayor congregation. They are indeed the true fountainhead church.

True Story said...

Further to what I've posted earlier, when 'self' is exalted, the Holy Spirit is grieved. Thinking back to what has been happening all these years, SP & SAP have been promoting 'self,' coveting the glory that belongs to God, coveting the gold that also belongs to God. Yes, all the celebrations that Calvary have been holding all these 36 years were for their own self-glory & self-promotion: birthdays, anniversaries of their ministries, etc. The titles they coveted are also for this same purpose, even though they deny this & have made up 'stories' to account for the titles. Of course the A/G Americans like Guynes are so impressed - they don't know how titles are obtained in Malaysia.

What fools we were for idolising a man and a woman, being duped to think that 'when we honour God's servants, we are honouring God'! This is an example of the mind-control or brainwashing the people of Calvary has been subjected to, for 36 years under the pastoring of SP & SAP.

item no 6 said...

I fully agree and fully support most of the points that had been put forward ie 1.stop giving, 2. report police etc... but I really don't think item no 6 is a good idea. Because it will make us look like HINDRAF at the PWTC during the Raya open house.

Anonymous said...

To adminstrator,
just delete having fun's comments. it is not constructive and really serve as distractions to get everybody angry and annoyed.

to others,
please let us just get back to the topic at hand. we need to focus.

Late Cub said...

dear having fun



Hebrews 10:30-31:
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Love the Lord with all your heart and minds

Anonymous said...

I would like to request that the administrators of this blog delete every comment posted by eggheads like Having Fun. People like him do not even have any proof to defend SP,so they have no choice but to resort to using foul and vulgar words to try to belittle other people. It’s ok, it just shows that SP supporters like ‘Having Fun’ are not only immature but also has serious mental issues. God have mercy on them. Having Fun, pls go see a shrink, you need it.

Cheers

CALVARY TODAY said...

It looks like “having fun” has decided to visit us again to cause diversion to our trend of thoughts. Let us not be distracted by him or his remarks. We believe he is seeking for attention and looks like this is the place he can vent out his frustrations without being identified. We count it a privilege that he has found a place to release his tension. Let us all exercise love for our dear fellow Christian by letting him/her say his/her peace. Maybe he /she can find rest for his/her soul here.

Jesus told us, “Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven”. (Matt 5:44-45)

However, we suggest to all readers to leave “Having fun” alone. DO NOT respond to his/her comment. Just move on with the discussion as you feel led to.

We have also decided NOT TO delete “having fun’s” comments so that readers who are not acquainted with us will read for themselves, the kind of profanity that can come out of SP & SAP’s supporters’ mouth or in this case pen.

Let us all rejoice that this blog is able to bless brothers & sisters in Christ who are suffering from different kinds of hurt by allowing them "freedom" to speak. Praise the Lord God Almight who reigns over all.

signs & wonders said...

Dear true story,
You said;

"Because you do not believe in signs and wonders, your church will not grow."

Yes, you are RIGHT cos the bible say signs and wonders shall follow you and surely is God that will bring the increase and not man

But SP does believes in signs and wonders.
SP believes in he/she SIGNS cheques and let he/she to WONDERS where the money goes.

So with the 9th update, point no.1 STOP GIVING if you want to stop
WONDER-ing each time you SIGN your $$$$$$$$ away.

Be sure when he/she SIGNS any cheques for any cause, he/she need not WONDERS where it goes.

PCK said...

To "Having Fun",

Eh, you think what you say is very funny ah! Not funny lah! You want more fun, better watch me on TV loh.

As they say "Don't play with fire ah, if not can get burnt oh"

More so when you are playing on a Christian blog, you may get burnt by God forever in you know where ah. Take care, bradder & may God bless you ah.

So ..... Don't play play, OK? See you on my TV show ah?

Enough is enough said...

Calvary today is so right as it just shows we are on the right track and this person is actually doing us a favour by doing that. so we shall just ignore watzisname from now on. not worth our time and effort

Anyway,back to what really matters. I have already done Option 1 as suggested by Update 9 and I support wholeheartedly for the rest of the Options to unfold. Enough is enough.

New Calvary said...

God Bless you Calvary Today!

Know that you are not alone in this fight. You have made so many things clearer to me and my family.

I think there is another thing that you need to help us with.

I can't keep going to Calvary Church as long as this oppressive leadership is in power. The Guneratnams and their cronies are abusing their authority and are robbing us blind.

Have you ever thought of starting another church? We can call it New Calvary Church or Calvary Baru or something like that. After all as Hong Meng has said, the church is not about the building but about the people. We need a place to worship. A place to grow.

With this new church we can build a church by Calvarites, for Calvarites. It will be our place and we can meet outside on other days. We still maintain our membership in Calvary Church so that when we win with our legal and criminal charges we can take our New Calvary members and come back to our 'promised land'

What do you guys think?

YTF said...

Dear New Calvary,

I was also thinking along that line but maybe we dont call ourselves a church first, cos it may involve alot of legal procedures to clear.

We should have a gathering, a place we can fellowship, worship, sing, praise and even having short sermons. We need to gather in the Name of our Lord. We need to take care of the young people too. We need to continue having spiritual food.

Go for it, but we need to do some planning.

New Calvary said...

ytf,

Yes ... we can worship in KBU or something like that. I agree about not calling ourselves a church to begin with.

Late Cub said...

Dear new calvary

It has to be God's calling to start a new church.But at the moment let us join in prayers for our beloved church. Many are in this church for a long, long time.
Some are here even before SP and family came.
Calvary Church is our 'Promised Land'. Many of us found the Lord here, got married and our children grew up in this church. All of us have very precious memories in this place.
For many of us this is our first church and do not intend to go to another church. Unless God calls us to.
SP should return all the monies and go, not us.SP is hindering the blessings from the Lord for this church.

Stay on for His Glory said...

We should all STAY ON because if we move on, SP and his cronies will think they have won the victory.

Let us stay and with God on our side, we will surely overcome and God's glory will eventually be rightfully restored in CC.

Stay on and press on ...all for the Lord our God. To Him be all the glory, forever ad ever. Amen

Don't take another bus said...

Dear New Calvary,

I think SP will be the happiest to hear that we want to start a new church. In fact that may well be his prayer - that you fellas not happy GO! Why should we go! He should go! In fact, he got some New Zealand guy to ask us to take another bus remember? So don't fall into his trap.

Just hang around for fellowship with friends lo. You don't like to hear him then consider it like listening to William Hung. After that song, will come someone nicer to listen to.

Puzzled said...

Reading the 9th update I feel the safest step is to have the petition but how can we get this thru the BOD.

CC is our church said...

Yes, we should all stay put in CC because this is OUR church, not SP's. We should not leave just because of him, as this will make him the happiest (not joyous) person.

I'm convinced that God will restore His church for His Glory. Amen.

Do't lose heart said...

My fellow Calvarites, let us not lose heart and leave. We must soldier on as God enables us. God has won the victory and we will claim it. To God be the Glory. Amen

New Calvary said...

But I don't want to leave Calvary Church. I agreed earlier after reading YTF's comment.

I just want some place to go to in the mean time. I hear that Hong Meng has a prayer meeting in his housr regularly.

Why can't we all join in in this? Maybe we all just start meeting up on Fridays to pray and get encouraged.

My family's spiritual growth is too important to sacrifice while we wait for truth and justice.

3 beginnings... said...

It just dawn on me after reading about ROBBING GOD OF 7 YEARS GLORY.

God created the world in 7 DAYS and then, walla, we have human kind on earth for His Glory. Gen 1:1, "In the beginning, God created..."

God used 7 YEARS to bring about Calvary Church Damansara Heights.
In 1961, God started a little fellowhip of english speaking believers in Jalan Sayor....

It looks like someone planned to change Calvary history to read, CALVARY CHURCH was dedicated to the glory of God on 11 February 1968 through the efforts of dedicated missionaries. Rev. Tan Sri (Dr) Prince and Puan Sri (Dr) Petrina Guneratnam was the first Malaysian couple to pastor the Church.

At a glance, SP & SAP, sounds like the missionaries who started Calvary Church. So this was a planned agenda all along. He has been slowly planting this thought in unsuspecting members/readers minds. So we are really robbing God of his beginning glory.

Anonymous said...

To ensure that the following was disseminated fully, especially to Calvarites and concerned folks abroad, its repeated here... Anon enuff is enuff says

A. Lowya Buruk.."Of couse SP more guilty. BOD gave but SP took-mah."

Pastor G in beginning was very ambitious and I knew then (apparently its not only me) he was covetous and avaricious. You asked me how. Time can only tell (almost 40 yrs later)
He announced one Sunday about his new Volvo, a gift by one of our dear Calvarite - as far as I'm concerned with good intentions. The way he bragged on the pulpit about it , made me think (a poor takongcai) how can I compete against rich towkays, with small young family to feed, to be in Pastor's G's good books.

In hindsight, I guess he was encouraging and setting the tenor of " pastor gifts" during his tenure.
His solicitation from the pulpit was IMO is the oldest form of prostitution.

B. Ah Beng are u suggesting that SP and his cohorts are doing CREATIVE FINANCING along the likes of WALL STREET financial with SP emulating those rapacious CEOs. Us shareholders are going to be beggared (alas also spirtually) and continue to be soaked perpetually. The ROT is in.
No wonder CCC is estimated $330 million. The bigger the project the larger the kickback la. Oh, forgot extra ROT (rule of thumb) of KB is 10% or more la.

C. Besides "soliciting" from the pulpit, sometimes I believe he is like a Carnie who bait and switch (oh CCC won't cost $100, $150 million or whatever it will end up with)

Thats why alot of us can't trust this unreliable CARNIE with his divine ? strategies. What a manipulative pastor
True first class church politician.

C. Thats why I say enough is enough. Its about time somebody say "THE EMPEROR HAS NO CLOTHES"
I'm ashamed when other christians state you need to celebrate this pastor's titles on your Calvary news instead of Glorifying God and our Lord Jesus.

Stewarding God's money in the mission field instead of hoarding it in CIM (SP personal hoard for what? Or is another creative form of financing ala rapacious WAll St CEO).

D. We have not only pampered (with his subtle or immoral hold)but also end up promoting him instead of HIM.

E. god forgive us..u r rite again
I pity Church staff with all the extra burdens. So take heed DO NOT take up paid positions at CHURCH if you do not want to be tainted. Not worth it.

F. Correlate and connect what SP said, at the CCC Contract 2 award (see Calvary News May-June 2008), and "info said" here in this blog
His ties with freemasonry is untenable.

Since when are we a benevolent organization to mitigate or enhance societal economic problems and or morals.

The Barbarians are within the Gates.

G. First action is to rescind all pledges, promises, CARNIval f/raising and obtain "bricks" refunds because CCC was mala fide.

A class action suit can be filed .

More about SP "Double Dipping

ptl said...

TAKE NOTE EVERYONE

Anonymous here may be a church leader trying to distract all from pursuing what has been posted here.

Stay to the action plan and move ahead with the topic. Don't be side-tracked.

Anonymous said...

Double Dipping is all about Creative Financing can someone start providing inside info or should I..

1.Charging expenses where he is reimbursed partially or fully without declaring (i.e. cheating CC and God's church).

2. KB in one shape or another

and so on and on..

Anonymous said...

Just a senior calvarite who has not been vocal enuff and has enuff of being duped.

Anonymous said...

PTL are you one of SP's sycophant?

Anonymous said...

Most of us have the discerning spirit to know whats the right action and steps to take.
I believe

Anonymous said...

Enuff is enuff about emperor with no clothes. His greed for power, covetousness and avariciousness is without bounds (shame of all shame).
Collectively as Christ body (from within and without) we can be cleanse and restore fully what belongs to our Lord Jesus. Full Glory to God. Remember we are not to share it with others.. not even SP. Thus saith the Lord!!!!

Anonymous said...

Anon is rite too. Take right steps, don't get bogged down unnecesary

SM said...

Item No.6 said "I fully agree and fully support most of the points that had been put forward ie 1.stop giving, 2. report police etc... but I really don't think item no 6 is a good idea. Because it will make us look like HINDRAF at the PWTC during the Raya open house."

If ever the TT supporters carry out a placard demo, i think it will be like the "Free Teresa Kok" style.. quiet, peaceful way and bear fruit coz Teresa was freed after that. Only in our case we are the ones who will be freed....of SP.

YTF said...

My apologies. I really did not mean start a new chuch. WE SHOULD NOT START A NEW CHURCH.

What I meant was some gatherings like a Christian convention. Not starting a church.

Not Irish Coffee said...

YTF,

Not need to apologise. As long it's not Irish coffee, but maybe fingers somehow seem to move faster than the brain. At least you are sincere, some blame on it the coffee.

Not Irish Coffee said...

Sorry,

...some blame it on the coffee...fingers moved too fast.

obvious said...

Dear YTF and the rest

Agreed that we should not leave the church.

I support the notion to have some prayer meeting/gathering so we can all use the time to worship God and intercede more and also be fed spiritually by some sharing of God's word etc.

We also won't be lacking of people to serve during our gathering since we have many capable and experienced ex-communion servers, ex-head ushers, ex-lifegroup leaders, ex-musicians,ex-youth leaders, ex-SCG teachers who will be part of the gathering.

But if there is a gathering to be held, may I advise the TT Group to not announce it through this blog as there might be some trouble makers (eg. having fun) who might want to come disrupt our prayer meeting like what happened during the last KBU meeting.

Anonymous said...

A history lesson
from someone who move over from Jalan Sayor to the present Calvary Church at Damansara Heights.

It was our missionary Pastor Jim Jones who challenged and initiated us to purchase land in DH though we were only a small young congregation. He motivated us to believe in God, strived to raise funds (not throwing expensive dinners)but by selling kueh, biscuits etc as small time traders, we even sewed neckties, wash cars etc. On his part, he roped in Gene Martin from USA to raise funds for us. Pastor Jones and his family of 4 moved to the back of our church to save the rental he gets from his home church, so that we can have some extra funds. We only built what we needed because Pastor Jones did not want to burden his young congregation of about 70 people who moved from Jalan Sayor. Truly God used Pastor Jones to His Glory to affirm if TRULY THE VISION IS FROM GOD, THE LORD WILL BRING IT TO PASS. We move in to our present Church DEBT FREE!!!

By cutting 7 years of history is cruel to our missionaries who never have it so good then compared to what our SP and his family enjoys!!!

It was Pastor Jones who invited the Guneratnams to come to preach to us one evening in Calvary Church and then asked for us to vote whether or not we want them to take over when he left!!!! We gave them a chance - they were small time preachers in Klang - rather humble at that time - we gave them a chance.

Think they have forgotten their roots, they prospered in Calvary, got world recognition because Calvary Church is their platform.
Are they appreciative of what we give them? From what we learnt, it seems not - they choose to keep our offerings for the less fortunate for themselves. Maybe they need to recall Jesus teaching LAY NOT FOR YOURSELF TREASURES ON EARTH!!!

CCC is way beyond our head - if you read what I have written you will be able to decide for yourself whether it is a vision of the Lord or SP's personal vision.
When the CCC plans were announced, he just introduced Ken Yeang and slapped it down to our throat. He could have discussed with us before giving to a freemason - yes he knew because I know for sure someone told him.

old time believer

my england not so good said...

..ptl...dont worry, i don't think anonymous is a spy la..think he is one of us. just tat coz his england is very high standard,so even i a bit confused on some of the words he used...hehe. dear anonymous,can explain in lay man terms ar..thank u!

Be Grateful to CC Sowers said...

Dear "Old Believer" who is still young at heart (you're our Caleb who still soldiers on for our Lord)

Yes, I agree totally with you that cutting 7 years of CC history is VERY cruel to our missionaries such as Pastor Jones who never had it so good then compared to what our SP and his family enjoy now.

SP, please give credit where it's due. Don't hoard it for yourself as it's never meant to be yours in the first place.

Others sowed but you harvested. Give credit to the sowers too. It's NOT RIGHT and it's certainly a DETESTABLE thing to do. In fact it STINKS.

26 Years in CC said...

Hi "Old Believer"

I thank God for you for your small but very significant part in the Kingdom of God. I can sense the hurt in you for what SP has done and is still doing, in robbing the 7 years of God's glory in and through the lives of our pioneering brethren.

My brother, take heart for God will surely take His right place in CC.

Trust in our Lord.

Oldie said...

Yah, I am one of those who were there in Calvary Church for the evening service when Pastor G walked into the church with his wife and two small kids or toddlers.

I was also one of them who raised my hand and agreed to him being our church pastor.

Blood, Sweat and Tears said...

It's indeed very naive for those who still think that CC is 40 years old as a church does not spring up just like that. Where did the $$$ come from? What about the congregation? And what about the vision in the first place?

There's much BLOOD, SWEAT and TEARS put into the sowing process. Even Paul our great apostle did not take all the credit. He saluted those who sowed for him to reap.

Humble Servant said...

Tan Sri SP seems to have forgotten his humble roots. If not for the "oldies" (not moldies obviously as they still know their roots in the Lord), he will not be the SP today.

My daily prayer is that God will humble SP so that he knows his roots, and repent for his bloated ego.

free calvary said...

brothers n sisters...so who's making the placards for our peaceful demo? we can also make banners and bring candles for our own candelight vigil...

Let's Pray for SP said...

Dear concerned Calvarites,

Let us continue to pray for SP so that God will eventually humble him. He needs our prayers.

Sister Petrina, I appeal to you to join us in praying for SP. You must not turn a blind eye to what he's doing. Listen to the still voice of the Holy Spirit and do the RIGHT thing, not for his sake and for His Glory.

God will not be mocked.

Suspicious said...

There's a chance that SP is in cahoots with Ken Yeang, as freemasons are supposed to help each other with contracts. It's a fraternity thing. Ever wonder why SP went ahead with his plan to hire Ken Yeang even though some concerned Calvarites have already spoken to him & the BOD about this a few years ago?

Think about it!

BTW, I believe Anonymous is one of us! He's a thinker, so that was why he brought out several issues. :) Hi, Anonymous! Keep sharing your views!

EM said...

Hullo ER & SP, it's been more than 6 months since the AGM & you still haven't given us the Extended Ministries' Audited Accounts for the year ended 31st Dec 2007. Why so long ah?

I thought it was promised by ER that they would be ready by June 2008 which was more than 3 & 1/2 months ago. Are there anything therein which SP is afraid to show us? More skeletons in the closet? What sort of stewards are you for Him?

From The Horses' Mouth said...

Did you hear about the SP special "LOTT" treatment? The one where when SP is not happy with you he will show his disgust by putting his "Legs On The Table". I read about this in another blog, I think it was on Spikeee's blog.

It seems this was confirmed by an AP (Associate Pastor) to the TT crew but the AP said that's SP's way of relaxing. Then TT crew said that SP can do the "LOTT" when relaxing in private but SP must put down his legs when someone else comes into the room.

The AP answered "the trouble with Asian ...". He was stopped in mid sentence as the TT crew was indignant (i.e. Godly anger) & did not allow AP to finish his sentence. TT crew asked "since when has SP become a Mat Salleh, he is as Asian as you & me. I have worked for 35 years & I have also served under some Mat Sallehs, I thank God that none of my bosses ever did that to me & neither have I ever done that to anyone. I do not want to hear about SP giving the "LOTT" treatment to anybody henceforth".

Btw, this exchange of words was witnessed by another AP, a Deacon & another TT crew member. Believe you me that the foregoing is the "Truth & nothing but the whole Truth" because I have also heard this 1st hand "from the horses' mouth" for confirmation.

Don't take my word for it, ask around as quite a few APs, CC staff & Calvarites have kena the "LOTT" treatment from SP over the years. Unfortunately, no one dared to voice this out & thus SP has grown to be the monster that he now is today. May God have mercy on SP.

New Beginning said...

Dear Calvarites (current and former),

Can we put it to a vote and see which of the seven options should we adopt?

I suggest we pick three in the order of preference:

My vote is as follows:

1. Report to IRB
2. Stop giving
3. Report to police

VIRUS DO SPREAD said...

1.Anyone have any information on the TAX exemption status for the 'ccc donation, the one in Prince Hotel?' i read in the recent prayer/fasting booklet asking for prayer to grant further renewal for tax examption, but if not, then how can this be advertised in the STAR recently to the public.. what if the public cannot get tax exemption? i think they sue Calvary church for misinformation..Right?

2. go for all 3 options.

Logically Speaking said...

Dear New Beginning,

My vote is as follows:

1. Stop giving to CC and CCC
2. Report to ACA or IRB
3. Make police report

We have no choice to take these actions 'cos he's not going to step down humbly.

Dear Let's Pray For SP,

How naive of you to think that SAP, Sis. Petrina, is innocent! She has been 'party' to all that has been going on!

Dear EM,
Thank you for bringing up that 'conveniently forgotten promise' - to date there is no news of the financial reports of Extended Ministries? Sure lah...SP & family have been using the funds like their own private bank accounts, so how can show opposition party? I remember the old Selangor UMNO govt. burnt all the documents before the new PKR govt. moved in!!! Same scenario! Too much at stake!

Truth Prevails said...

dear '...Horses' mouth' (ahem! please try to keep your names short next time - easier to address, lah!)

That info about LOTT was written by Siew Chyuan & posted on Calvary Today, I think!

It's all true. I, too got that LOTT treatment. It was his way to demean his leaders, to show us that he doesn't think much of us. I felt insulted and intimidated by the LOTT treatment!

He 's a monster indeed! No manners at all! And mind you, I was a church leader, of the female gender, and yet he did not show the least bit courtesy that gentlemen should show to ladies! SP is no gentleman and neither is he a good shepherd of God's people. He enjoys lording it over God's sheep!

POET said...

ER, ER, BOD Treasurer,
We want to see, we want to see,
True accounts, audited and sure,
Expose the dark secrets of Extended Ministries.

SP has lots of secrets to hide,
Living a lie, the Great Pretender!
To his flesh he had not died,
A liar, a thick-skinned coveter!

Poet II said...

Have you ever experienced before
The LOTT Treatment of Calvary?
Highly recommended to one and all
To keep you humble and feeling small!

Just make an appointment, if you dare!
To talk to The Monster himself, today,
His true colours shine in his lair,
Legs on the table he will display!

PTL said...

I will vote for:

1. Stop Giving
2. IRD
3. Police

Stay and Persevere said...

My vote is to do all 3 simultaneously and as soon as possible :-

1.Stop giving
2.Lodge police report
3.Report to ACA and IRD

Anonymous said...

My vote for all simultaneosuly and immediate actions:

1. Stop giving
2. Lodge Police Reports
3. Legal Actions
4. Report to AG Council, World Assembly, WAGRA.
5. Report IRD
6. Bank Negara

Why so long? said...

Why have we taken so long to do any of this?

New Beginning said...

Dear Why So Long, so what is your preference?

New Beginning said...

Current status of preference:

First Choice: Stop giving = 4 votes
IRB = 1

Second Choice: IRB = 2
Police = 2
Stop Giving = 1

Third Choice: Police = 3
IRB = 1
Legal Action = 1

Ex-staff said...

Yes, "from The Horses' Mouth", I too experienced SP's LOTT treatment too when I was serving full-time.

Personally speaking, regardless of whether you're Asian or Mat Salleh or whatever nationalities, etc, etc, LOTT is a PRIVATE AFFAIR when you are alone watching TV, listening to music, reading or relaxing, whatever...

In private, you can do it in your office, living room, bedroom, toilet (if it's big enough, otherwise you'll get stuck) or any private confines.

Please don't offer excuses for him, whoever the AP is. If it's NOT right, IT'S NOT RIGHT! Period.

so angry said...

My vote:

1) Stop Giving (in fact I've stoped giving 2 months ago)
2) Report to IRB
3) Report to police

please do it FAST!

Own Missions Director said...

My vote:

1) Pray
2) Stop Giving (I've been my own Missions Director since October 2007)
3) Report to IRB

SM said...

Did any of you view the traffic map on the right column of this blog? you can actually click on the red dots to see the location of readers and what they read. Someone from Springflield, Missouri has seen this blog. I hope it is the World AG council,then they can see the true colors of SP.

obvious said...

Hi all

Based on the comments read so far, I think the general consensus looks to be that we will stop giving our tithes/offerings to CC and that the TT Group should report this to the IRD and the police. I agree with the voting with our pockets option as I would rather see my money being given to churches or organizations who will use it wisely. IRD is also a good option but I think the Police option should be the last choice as we we wouldn’t want to see poor PO being sent to prison since he was the missions director when all this happened. I believe he is an innocent party to this and only did it out of loyalty and trust for sp. Of course that doesn’t make what he did right as he unknowingly became an accomplice to this criminal breach of trust. I vote for the TT Group to get all this reported to WAGRA, AG Council and NECF first. Let the Christian bodies deal with sp first and if all else fails, then I guess that leaves us with not much choice but to let the law handle it.

All for transparency said...

I agree we should leave PO alone, If we report to the police,he may really suffer. He's not the real culprit, SP is. Let's leave police action as last resort. We should pursue all other options.

BTW, if Springfield has landed on our blog, I suspect AG US is watching too.

AG US, if you're blogging here, come in more often as more truth will be revealed. Prince Guneratnam is not what you all think he is.

WAGRA should also blog here. You may want to recover your dues.

stay and persevere said...

Hi Obvious and All for Transparency,
If PO is innocent and only did the things out of loyalty for SP, by now the whole picture should be very clear to him. If he still insists on maintaining the present stand of SP and the Deacons, it would mean that he has not repented and hence we should not feel guilty if he is implicated when reports are made to police, IRD, etc.

God is on the throne! said...

Lord God, forgive us sinners, ALL!

Lord, it makes us sick when false prophets preach/speak Your Truth from the pulpit. For these are the same people who turn a blind eye to Prince and Petrina Guneratnam (and family)'s embezzlement of church Missions fund.

Lord, WE WILL KEEP COMING TO THIS HOUSE OF YOURS despite these false prophets because we trust that You, Sovereign Lord, in Your time will clean up this house of Yours.

Lord, the leaders have been told to warn us not to touch 'God's anointed'. As we 'touch' them with prayers to repent, we remember how King Saul, God's anointed, ended up. We also remember Achan's sin as well as Ananias and Sapphira.

Lord, we wait on You for the time when going to Calvary Church will not be like entering a den of thieves.

Lord God, You are on the throne, hallelujah!

ptl said...

Please help me understand this more.

If police report is made, PO will be hauled up also because he was the missions director at that time.

How about the deacons? will they be hauled up too?

How about the accounts staff or book keeper? will they too be questioned?

obvious said...

Dear Stay and persevere

I agree with you that PO should also repent and not continue to believe what SP did is right…perhaps secretly, he is beginning to realize it (I hope!) but can’t say much outwardly as he is still ‘makan gaji’ from SP. Maybe some of the Old Time TT members (those faithful members since the Jln Sayor era) should go have a cup of teh tarik with him one of these days to have a heart to heart chat with him.

To all

PTl’s comment made me remember something. What if SP has covered his tracks so well to the extent that all this misuse of funds looks like the doings of PO, the BOD and the missions committee but not him? So on a worst case scenario, if this is reported to the police, SP might end up being scot free as they do not have enough evidence to pin him down but the rest of his underlings – PO,BOD and Missions Committee and perhaps even the auditors end up behind bars?? More food for thought.

abc said...

Assumptions:

P O was missions director - surely he can produce guidelines how he can approve of the transfer of funds to CIM; if BOD approves, they too should have proof of transfer. Remember one person at EGM asked whether there is a conflict of interest between the fact that SP is 'head' of Missions Board and CIM being his personal ministry? He said it is not a conflict of interest; wonder how many members present accepted his reply? So on the question of transfer, it depends on what proof do they have in the office

BOD - guess they never insisted they should have a copy of minutes of their meetings, so they can't blame on anyone if they do not have evidence. IF THEY ARE SMART, FROM NOW ONWARDS, THEY AS A BODY MUST INSIST ON MINUTES OF EVERY MEETING THEY ATTEND.

P.O - can't answer for him SO SUGGEST YOU BETTER GATHER WHATEVER U CAN TO SAVE YOUR OWN SKIN IF YOU HAVE BEEN USED BY U KNOW WHO FOR HIS BENEFIT.

S.P. - he said no conflict

Guess best to charge BOD (as it will include SP; P.O will not be involved technically) - anyway do you not trust JUSTICE SHOULD PREVAIL and if a person is not guilty, then there is nothing to fear.

QUESTION: if CIM is supposed to be SP's personal ministry, has anybody asked WHY ASK A PERSON FROM BOD to sit in as a director.
BOD if smart enough should not go in as a director because any thing amiss, u can become a scapegoat.

TT - believe we should be focused and if there is a need to take action, be it a, b, c, or d many of us will support you for we love our church and our Lord but not our SP or wife anymore (not my personal opinion only, think that's the general feeling of a lot of us).

Why so long? said...

I have heard about this police report and IRD report for months. Since even before AGM. Nothing has been done.

Why so long?

If there really is indeed enough to report then somebody would have. And don't tell me that its because you don't want to hurt the church etc. This blog has only served to prove that some who align themselves with the TT mission are quite fanatical. So I'm sure the intention and the desire is there. Perhaps not with the core group but with others whom the core group has no control over. They themselves have admitted as much to the deacons.

I think no Police Report or IRD Report has been done is because there is nothing that can be proven. It is all hearsay. Everything in this blog is based on opinions. Not fact.

Are these opinions damaging enough? Perhaps. But everyone should realize that everything said here are only opinions.

I am only talking about the legal implications. Moral ones can be dealt with by others. But legally, all these opinions are equivalent to throwing jelly at a wall and expecting it to stick. It wont.

No one here will be able to send in a police report and expect it to hold ground. You can try. But when it comes time to produce evidence, you wont have anything.

This is why there was a forensic accountant and a criminal lawyer at the EGM. To prove that these opinions, insinuations and yes, allegations are only that. They gave their report and the result was there is NO legal basis to the claims of the TT gang. Nothing. Zip. Nada. NO LEGAL BASIS.

And yes, I have read the post that says that we don't know what they were given and so forth but really now, if you really believe that then send the police in to check.

Thats why for all its bravado this blog will not succeed in Police Reports, IRD reports and any such legal and criminal action.

I'm surprised that the author even mentioned it. Which brings me to two possibilities:

1. The author is reckless and is not concerned about the ramifications of bringing this issue into the public domain. This person is not interested in the long term effects of a scandal in a Christian church in the political/religious climate in which we live. This individual is not concerned of how this will inevitably cause a church split leaving whomever is left the actual burden of picking up the pieces.

2. The author is just trying to flex his/her muscles and is only trying to excite and stir the anti-establishment pot. He/she knows very well that the criminal/legal option was never really on the table. It is only there because it gives the illusion of 'seriousness' and adds 'legitimacy' to their cause.

That being the case, the only real options are:

1. Stop Giving
Its a valid idea. Its executable. Its within your individual control. But then what? Find alternate places to give and sit and rot in church? I don't think so. I guess some of you have tried this and it only made you feel worse.

2. Report to AG Council, Wagra and NECF
Apparently this has been done already so no point debating on whether or not it should be done. Our opinions were not really needed. We were merely informed.

3. Publicize Our Cause
What are you? HINDRAF?

"Bear in mind that it was the “washing dirty linen in public” which brought down great but fallen men of God like Jimmy Swaggart , Jim Bakker and many others."

I'm not familiar with the history but even if this is true, it doesn't make it right. I'll leave it at that.

4. Petition
Haven't you already done this? ... twice?

Thank you for reading my thoughts. I hope we can have a respectable debate subsequently.

Mr F said...

WHY SO LONG is definitely a lawyer.

Why so long? said...

mr f,

I am not.

Thank you for your comment.

Late Cub said...

Why so long is SK la

SPinocchio said...

Why so long,
you are so free meh?
Can answer immediately
You better prepare your sermon le

Mr F said...

You mean WHY SO LONG is a pastor?

English also very good. Thats why I thought he or she was a lawyer, using word like 'ramifications'.

The first time I heard such a word was from my lawyer.

another oldie said...

Our missionary pastors

I hold dear to the fact that our missionary pastors & their wives love us very very much.

When I was having my baby I lost a lot of blood and the hospital did not have my blood group - Sis Jones came to the hospital personally and donated blood for me. I have a fine daughter and I am still alive and well.

I am very grateful and for this reason I support those messages from the Jalan Sayor immigrants who have great love and respect for the missionary pastors who are really our shepherd in every sense.

There was no division - Pastor was the shepherd, we were the sheep and we were taught fed.

One thing I must say they only left because the Malaysian government did not allow any missionaries to hold posts as full time pastors.

Regret that some of you, the younger ones have not experienced what I am sharing with you.

Yeh, it is good to remember they toiled
1. Pastor Guynes and Sis Guynes are like parents to many of us.
They do not have any airs but will be more than happy to join us for meals at side-stalls.
2. Brother Jones and Sis Jones came with their young children; she had a baby when she was serving in Malaysia. They were very sacrificial and they inspired us to buy DH land.
3. Brother Vic Trimmer - he was an interim pastor and remember him with fond memories. Because he was a divorcee, when we came carolling to his home behind the church - in the middle of the night, he gave us AN icecream each.

How can we ignore all these good shepherds? They toiled and sweated here without drawing any money from us - they have been all supported from their own church.

another oldie

Late Cub said...

mr.f
aiya you let the cat out of the bag, lo!!!
why so long will later use Phua Chu Kang english.
why so long is KIASU but not KIASI cos he is willing to die for SP.
KIABO????????

Anonymous 100 said...

Dear abc,

Quote "TT - believe we should be focused and if there is a need to take action, be it a, b, c, or d many of us will support you for we love our church and our Lord but not our SP or wife anymore (not my personal opinion only, think that's the general feeling of a lot of us)."

PLEASE SPEAK FOR YOURSELF ONLY! Please do not include the general public into your own agendas. Please do not drag other innocent children of god into your unloving attitude!

I am not a SP supporter, neither am i a TT member. I have been attending CC since i was a baby literally. For you to say that you do not love them anymore and try to include people in your feelings is inappropriate.

How do you expect to bring healing to the "church" if love is not driving you. Isn't it God's teaching to us to love each other. I acknowledge and personally feel that SP has been wrong in certain areas but what good does it do to act out of your "unloving" attitude?

Which leads me to think if the whole purpose of this "exercise" is now to oust SP from CC or is it to restore healing and love to our church out of LOVE!

Seems to me like the purpose for change and healing and "a new start" has diverted away more to "OUT SP OUT!" and "LET"S EXPOSE ALL THE EVIL HE HAS DONE". The blog is also starting to get really personal and picking on every single thing that SP does. Did any of you once stop to think that he is only human after all? Name me one pastor in the whole world that has never did anything wrong, be it personally or towards the congregation. But then again, from the way things are developing here, i guess everyone will only be satisfied once he is exposed and behind bars.

Please don't get me wrong. I am not trying to defend SP and i am not trying to justify his actions. From a concerned Calvarite abroad, the actions, comments, suggestions and expressions here feels like its being filled with "hatred" more than love!

Please feel free to comment as I am looking forward to reply to any.

Why so long? said...

spinocchio, late cub, mr f,

I am not Pastor Steven Kum nor am I a pastor or a lawyer. I don't see how my identity affects my message.

Thank you for your interest in my post. I trust that the posts that follow will respond to my post in an adequate manner.

Not long said...

We shall not rebuke Why so long for commenting since everyone is entitled to their opinion. But perhaps his opinion will be the breaking point for the TT Group, ie. all Options suggested will be effected IMMEDIATELY since it just shows that many pro SP people and so-called neutrals are trying to challenge us to see if we are daring enough to do as what was suggested by the Article. Guess what, let’s just do it. Enough is enough

Anonymous 100 said...

Once again late club and not long have proven the unprofessional and arrogant attitude by criticising and condemning other bloggers who leave comments not aligned with their agenda.

I thought this blog was free for suggestions and comments? or is it only for pro-TT comments?

why so long has brought about some good points. Did anyone think about the ramifications to the Christian community by bringing this public and lodging a police report?

Not long said...

Anonymous 100...which part of my comments is criticizing and condemning? I don't think I was condemning at all. In fact, I said that everyone is entitled to their opinions. So if anything, you are the one being unprofessional and arrogant.

cin cai said...

why so long? You won't have to wait for very long. soon it will be over.

From the things you write we know you are speaking for SP. You want to fish for information. Thank God the TT members all smart ones.

You think they will reveal to you their strategy?

But administrator have said, they will allow everyone to air their views, so cin cai lah, we listen to you.

Anonymous said...

yup, cin cai..u r rite. anonymous100 and not so long are probably ex-desmond and peach from the other posts. maybe from Sp's family...who knows

Stay and Persevere said...

To Why so Long.
What I know is lodgement of the Police Report will initiate investigation into whether the allegations are true. This will probably lead to more detailed investigations of the accounts, etc. Maybe you (Why so Long) are right and the final result will be that there is no case. However, no one can be certain. God is Great and He may yet make the unlike happen!

Sinner saved by grace said...

Dear Anonymous 100,

Just because of a few who seemingly showed "unloving" tendencies, you are generalising to say all opinions and views expressed in this blog are filled with hatred. Aren't you being judgemental too. Please DO NOT GENERALISE.

Don't try to be a saint (holier than thou attitude)!

Anonymous 100 said...

Dear not long,

Quote" But perhaps his opinion will be the breaking point for the TT Group, ie. all Options suggested will be effected IMMEDIATELY since it just shows that many pro SP people and so-called neutrals are trying to challenge us to see if we are daring enough to do as what was suggested by the Article. Guess what, let’s just do it. Enough is enough"

IF the paragraph above does not constitute arrogance i must question my english teacher for teaching me the wrong thing. Just because not so long commented on something outside the box and against the whole "bringing it to the public" and questioning the purpose of the actions suggested you took it as a challenge and want to prove that you are daring enough.

I'm not trying to bring conflicts here but i would personally like to see a better course of action that involves less public disgrace to our church.

Which brings me to my question again "Did anyone including the author ever considered the ramifications of bringing this issue more public than it already is?"

not long said...

Dear anonymous100, yes i suggest u go question yr english teacher for teaching u the wrong thing. You should also question yrself for simply judging people.

Why don't u first go ask SP whether he considered all this repercussions when he first started misusing the funds? that would be a better option for u.

Why so long? said...

Thank you Anonymous 100. Its nice to know that there are others on this blog who can see a post and accept its contents for what it is.

The replies I have received so far have been thus far nonconstructive in nature. Those who have replied have either replied by

a. Trying to ascertain my identity in order to magically erode my credibility

b. Responding in anger, as if I was somehow challenging them to lodge the report(s).

I am also curious about this underlying message that Cin Cai alluded to in that 'the TT members all smart ones.' Is this really what those in the TT Crew actually believe? That they are the smart ones and that those who don't agree with them are somehow stupid?

Yet, no one has responded to my original post in any way that has been constructive to the discussion.

anonymous 100 said...

Dear sinner saved by grace,

I'm not trying to be a saint for the record and i did not specifically said all opinions and comments. Maybe i should have said "most".

And once again your reply ahs proven me right by asking me not to try and be a saint! A man simply can't leave comments without being "attacked"

cin cai said...

Oh not yet finish. Your option 1.
Many of us are doing so and we feel real good knowing that our money is meeting needs and touching lives. At least we know it is not for some one traveling business class.

2. I believe the TT members when they say the inform them. They always show us their letters to them and the reply also. Soon i think they will post here.

3. Not Hindraf....Free Teresa Kok style. Hey you better volunteer to be SP's traffic warden on the dinner nights. TT supporters may just be there. Friend, nothing is right now in cc. Tell me SP taking RM 1.9 million is right!! you must be joking. Don't know history, don't talk. Go study first and know your facts then talk.

4. Yeah sign twice. How come you know twice when i sign one only. Anyway you people play dirty..just throw out our beautiful signatures. So we sign again lo not a problem for us. TT members, we sign for you again.

Anonymous said...

Dear Annoymous 100

abc replies

please note I can count - I did not say all, I say a lot of us. This blog is open to all, why be so angry!!!!

abc

dont pretend pretend la said...

Eh….I think anonymous100 is really desmond or peach in disguise la…sound so alike and always accusing ppl of being rude and arrogant and all the rest of the bad bad stuff. Aiyo,anonymous100..u really quite self righteous la..shud admit it mah…why so long, of coz u agree with anonymous100 coz both of u oso the ma zhai for sp mah..probably in the ccc committee or missions committee since u r saying u not a pastor.aiyoyo

Anonymous 100 said...

Just to set the record straight here, i am not trying to raise conflicts here. I myself have given faithfully to CC and God my whole life with sacrifices in between. It does hurt and it feels sad to know that the funds have been misused.

My agenda here is:

1) Is there any other possible solutions other than "public action"? (I'm sorry i do not have any ideas which is why i'm asking)

2) Despite SP's many wrongdoings, should we try forgiving him and resolving this peacefully? I know it sounds naive and SP if you're reading this, for the FREAKING SAKE OF YOUR FAMILY, CHURCH AND PASTORS AND STAFF who have stood by you and supported you, just COME CLEAN, ADMIT TO whatever wrongs and seek forgiveness!

3)Have we questioned ourselves if our actions are in a way pushing SP away or rather making it harder for him to come clean?

Anonymous 100 said...

HONESTLY I AM SICK OF THIS @#$%!

Don't you guys ever read your own posts and reflect on your own comments before labelling so called "neutrals" arrogant, rude, SP suporters, CCC committee, ma zhai, etc!

If it makes you happy, i'll admit that im a self righteous saint! Happy?

Makes me really think what freaking use is it to be a freaking Christian if this is what it is like! Which is true, I am starting to question my own faith as a result of trying to keep updated on this blog!

BTW, I am not any of what you have labelled me and i am not revealing my identity simply to preserve my family's "safety" and "reputation" in CC. In fact, i am overseas and i am not even attending the church currently!

cin cai said...

Not yet finish some more.

Hey all you talking for SP or trying to put the TT members down. You claim to be not sp supporter, not tt supporter not .....

You say tt member must do this must do that. cannot wash dirty linen. cannot go public. just wondering, have you spoken to SP yourself? have you asked him to not cause any more dirty linens for the tt members to wash?

Have you asked SP to wash the dirty linens himself? If he wash it, then nobody else need to wash for him.

treading carefully.. said...

hey all, this will be my first time posting. i just wanted to post something that has been on my mind while reading some of your posts.

this is mainly to those who have been asking what should we do... a freind of mine once told me that the bible states that if a person refuses to change, the church should(i quote from bible) "expel the wicked man from among you," he told me that if someone doesn't want to change after all the rebuking, etc... we should just cut all contact with him/her to show the severity of his/her sins, that it is not acceptable, and if he/she refuses to get rid of those sins, we would be no part of them.
my friend was more or less quoting from 1 Corinthians 5 (i think... it was a long time ago, but the scripture holds true).

at first when i heard that i thought something like,we can't do that, after all we are Christians and i believe in grace and forgiveness because God first gave grace and forgiveness to me. take note that i had this conversation long before the whole matter with the agm and egm. we were just having 'christian' talks. i now see that his arguement is valid.
what i'm saying is, when you read 1Corinthians 5, although it mainly refers to a sexualy immorale men, it kind of teaches us what to do in our situation.

1)the scripture writes, " Therefore let us keep the Festival..." it goes on but i believe it also means let us not punish that which was originally meant for God's work. things like paying tithies and missions offering, i beleive its something we should not stop doing. and this does not mean going off and giving your allocated money to people you feel is deserving. i mean giving those money to the church for distributions. i think i'm gonna get lots of arguement on this area, but just know that while its fine to give your mission offering and tithies to people you see needing it, we should also have a proper flow of resources, like a collective river if you would. also, in the matter of giving to ccc, well i personally believe in seeing ccc go through. i will do what i can on my part to see not a man's vision, but i believe God's vision come to pass(agreed, somethings can be cut back to help with construction, not too amny though, i kinda like the structure of it). therefore i say stop giving should not be a choice of action.

2)since a complain has already been goven to Warga and AOG something... no point bring that point up.

3)i still hold firm to opinions of not going public abt this.this is essentially our problem, let us resolve this problem whithin our family. alod i o back to the scripture i used, it write "get rid of the old yeast that you may be a new batch without yeast". which i think means just get rid of the spoilt part. if you take actions like going public, you will only be damaging the church as a whole.

i tried to be as carefull as i can in writting this post, i was really reluctant at first to use scripture to 'fight' but i believe i was expose to this long before we had this problem for it to be used here. i admit that i could be wrong, but i do not meant to use this forum as a medium to vent, or for anyselfish reasons (i really hope that is true, we can fool ourselfs sometimes you know).

take care brothers and sisters,

Anonymous 100 said...

precisely the kind of objective response i hoping to read and think about. Thank you "treading carefully"!

obvious said...

Anonymous100
I suggest that you write a letter to the BOD or maybe even SP himself to address all your concerns to them. They will be the best people to ask if you have any questions on why all this is happening in our church. After all,they are the ones who started all this mess and if anything,they should be the ones to end it.

Not only you,but my faith has also been affected,but for different reasons of course,mine is because of SP and his unchristian like attitudes and actions. What to do? We just have to deal with our own faith ourselves and not let other people affect our faith. So yes, I am trying to deal with my own faith in God and I suggest you do the same instead of using all this &*%# signs.

Uncle Winslow said...

Dear Anonymous 100,

I believe I'm old enough to be your "uncle" so I just want to talk to you as one, will it be alright?

Please don't allow the exchanges on this blog, however "bad" or "ugly", to affect your faith which should always be anchored in our Lord Jesus, no matter what the cicumstances are, either real or perceived.

If I were you, I would rather remain true to God, and not participate in this blog at all if it does not edify my faith at all.

Be a blessings wherever you are. My prayer is that you will always stay faithful to Him, and don't let this blog affect your faith.

In His love,

Uncle Winslow

Anonymous 100 said...

hi obvious.

Thanks for your feedback and advise. I accept your "criticism" and do apologise to everyone for using the symbols.

I acknowledge it is not an excuse but all the unfriendly replies (not only to my posts) have been really getting to me and was building up.

Anonymous 100 said...

hi uncle winslow,

Thank you for your advise and concern.

TT group, i appeal to you to seriously consider actions that will not lead to extensive public exposure. I for one am for things like the petition.

Is there not a way that we can "demand" for the accounts to be viewed? I'm sorry if this has been covered previously but there just has been too much info to digest.

Mr F said...

Uncle Winslow,

How do you know that Anonymous 100 is so much younger than you?

Maybe he is old enough to be your uncle?

Sorry, maybe its she and not he.

Winslow said...

Hi Mr F,

It does no matter as long as I've blessed someone as my years with Calvaryland have taught me.

Happy blogging!!!

cin cai said...

Hi treading carefully. i can see that you are really being very careful with your words. i am almost wispering in my reading.

But after all that you have said, you have not helped the TT members to come to solution. This cannot do, that cannot do, this no point, that no point and what is the point? what can they do?

I am sorry to speak on your behalf TT members but i think they tell us here what they have done so that if we think it is not right, then give suggestion. not say this cannot, that cannot.

I have been following the comments but i have not come to read any suggestion by those cannot, cannot people give any suggestion what can and can do.

I believe TT members want to hear our opinion, not our argueing.. right or not?

another ex-staff said...

I want to tell you my experience with sp as a church staff. Sorry, I am now an ex-staff.

I also got the LOTT treatment before when I went to see him in his office one day. He gave me an assignment but I told him I have no confidence to do it as I was new and had no experience in that ministry. He threw the file at me and told me to just go and do it. The file landed on the floor and I was so shocked that I did not know how to respond. Someone else who was in the room also picked it up for me.

I still have not gotten over that incident up till today.That scene is still fresh on my mind.

Sure Opinion Only? said...

I just read why so long?'s comment and just wish to ask him and quote;

"But everyone should realize that everything said here are only opinions."

You mean the TT members who wrote this update, just posted their opinion based on heresay? They have not met the police but just gave their opinion. I know for a fact that they have ex-policemen on their team. You mean they could not have arranged for the team to meet the police?

You mean that the CEOs and others in their team have no connection with the IRD to have a chat with them regarding this?

I read somewhere that they have at least 2 lawyers on their team. You mean these lawyers have no lawyer friends or partners to check with to obtain legal advise and explore possible suit?

If the team could get people out to KBU for meetings, you think they can't get people to carry placards? Opinion also?

You think they are of the opinion that they can write to NECF, AG Council & WAGRA and not that they have already written and then now report to us?

I read some where that they have identified themselves as people of different professions. Most of them may be considered as Professionals in the market place. Are you telling me that they work on hearsay and opinions? You are telling me that they gave us their opinions?

Now I quote them, "Coming to the action plans, the following are what we, either collectively, individually or as a small group, have done or considered doing or proposed to do:-"

I do not read that this is their opinion or that they heard some one said.

To others who commented. You mean the oldies cooked up those missionary stories? You mean there are no more real oldies around?

The ex-staff who shared, all gave their opinion of what happened to them or related what happened to them?

whose opinion? said...

Hi All,
The reference to "That's your opinion" reminded me of SP's replies in the last AGM. Statements of facts by the floor refering to the Constitution and the Accounts were meaninglessly and ridiculously retorted with "That's your opinion" by SP. Maybe, Why so Long? is actually SP!

Puzzled said...

Dear All,

Why is everyone telling each other what should be done.

Should we not all collectively get SP to come out and start the healing, restoration, etc. He is the only one that could do that.

Here everyone is "fighting" but IT IS SO SAD THAT OUR PASTOR, OUR SHEPHERD IS NOT DOING ANYTHING!!! Dirty linen about him is being aired out and HE DOES NOT CARE, his family would also be affected, HE DOES NOT CARE. Most important God is so grieved over the whole episode, HE DOES NOT CARE!! What does our Pastor care about - his faith and loyalty to God is really in question by his silence.

WE CARE FOR SP'S REPUTATION, HIS CALLING, HIS FAMILY ......BUT HE HIMSELF DOES NOT CARE

SAD,SAD insn't it ':>(''

THE GREAT WALL-BEIJING said...

To "Why so long?" WOW..its amazing!looks like calvarytoday will soon win the TOP
MOST POPULAR BLOGS in the world.

Seriously, i read the 9th update with great conviction and with strong support for the TT. They had done great job for the sake of JESUS...who came and saved us of our sins..yet our Leadership still puzzling over these whole episodes.

To 'why so long'--please do not speculate and undermine, if you think you are right in your "Opinion", again; may i use the same word you used--its your "Opinion" only.

"Why so long?" i am afraid you cant wait to see Senior Pastor go to jail or lose his preaching licence sooner..hence, you are trying to tell the public here to rush up for his jail term, or being strip of his preaching licence
Its your opinion that all things are ok, can you tell him on his face all things are ok?
Are you trying to be so naived and assumed nothing happened?
In Bahasa-"tepuk sebelah tangan tak akan berbunyi"
Would you believed what you had known so far from this blog that these people have already got connected with WAGRA,AOG,NECF,POLICE,IRB,BANK NEGARA???
You have better not to believed, because again its an opinion.Would you believed if the people tell you no police report made? again its your opinion...
God is our Provider--He will provide all sources yesterday,today and tomorrow.Thank you for reading --Dear "why so long?"

cin cai said...

Yeah, Sorry everyone for any wrong thing i said or if i offended anyone.

Puzzled is right. We should not be argueing. We should help TT members to get the job done. Give constructive and workable ideas. Not just telling everybody what to do. Most important don't guess who each writer is. Not nice to say this is so and so. They may be really innocent people and not church leaders.

Concerned calvarites, is there any other way? or do the TT members get our nod / approval to what they have proposed to us?

treading carefeully.. said...

dear cincai, if you had understood what i meant in my last post, you would see that i had treid to give a course of action.

basically i'm saying we shouldn't do things, and this doesn't just mean the TT crew, that will eventually hurt the church as a whole. things like holding back money shouldn't be something to be considered. after all, Jesus did say pay to ceaser what is his and pay to God what is His. are you not still a member of Calvary? if yes than that is your medium to which your offering to God should go(i am not refering to ccc fund, thats a different issue).

TT crew has already informed WARGA, AG council, etc... so that it self is already an action right? that action, i am for... after all they do serve as the guardian of our guardian.

[I am sorry to speak on your behalf TT members but i think they tell us here what they have done so that if we think it is not right, then give suggestion. not say this cannot, that cannot.]

cincai, your quotation in the bracet.

isn't that what i'm doing? people say, "stop giving". i'm saying, "thats not right" not merely saying that you shouldn't do that. people say "go police" i'm saying "dont go police". aren't i doing excatly what you say i'm not doing?

sigh...
sorry readers for having turned this into a pitting contest... i didn't mean too.

just want you to take precaution in both taking actions and posting things up on this blog.

to cincai, sorry if i seemed rude. but i do think i stucked to the main idea of the blog.

to anonymous 100, uncle winslow is right, dont let this be a stumbling block to you. dont punish God and yourself in your faith because ultimately salvation is His.

thank you.

YTF said...

Dear Sure Opinion Only, very well said.

YTF said...

Dear Another Ex-staff, thank you for speaking up the truth. It must have been a big relief to you to get that lump off your chest.

I have heard about him throwing file to people before, but I did not know for sure if it was true. Now looks like everything is true.

CHINA--SHANGHAI said...

Hello : THE GREAT WALL-Beijing
WOW..WOW..you are so constructive in your opinion and answer to "why so long". Thank God for people with such wisdom! Yes, with all thse misconduct..you dont have to let CC see your documents but all these different organisations involved do have all records of the offences.. Calvary constitution stated very clearly on spiritual misconduct.. loosing his preaching licence is in line..

obvious said...

Hi Anonymous 100

Thank you for accepting my feedback/advice. It is good and humble of you to apologize and I commend you for it.

I don't blame you for not being fully aware of what is happening over here since you are studying overseas. Perhaps from an outsider point of view, it does seem that we are over reacting etc. But truth be told, Anonymous 100..the few suggestions you gave, ie.sign petition and demanding for the accounts to be viewed etc have already been tried and tested but to no avail. One example is that concerned members have actually signed 2 petitions this year but both were thrown out and ignored by the BOD.Same goes for the rest of the efforts to try and settle it privately - these were ignored by SP and BOD sadly. So what you are reading now on the blog is the last options which the TT Group are doing after months of tears,sweat and intercession. The rest of us also want to see this settled asap,so let's pray that God will work a miracle.Pray for wisdom and strength to be upon the TT Group too as they have a huge task at hand.

obvious said...

Hi treading carefully

I believe you are truly a neutral person (as opposed to some others who say they are neutral but really aren't) and I think some of your opinions are good food for thought.However, in terms of not giving our tithes and offerings to CC, we do not mean that we are no longer giving to the Lord. In fact, many of us are still giving faithfully to the work of the Lord via other churches etc. I myself have been channeling my tithes to a small humble church and have also gave offering to aid a full time worker who was in need. Other good avenues to give offerings to include Asian Outreach,Malaysian Care and AG Educare Fund and Widowcare fund which this blog has suggested.
Why we think that it is best not to give any more of our offerings to CC is because we do not want the money to be wasted and spent on unneccessary expenses like business class tickets etc or kept in the bank account for a year or two to collect interest. The price of 1 business class ticket can be used instead to put food on the table for 10-15 poor families every night.don't you think that God would be more pleased with his money (since offerings belongs to God) being spent on the latter instead of the former?

member for >25 years said...

action to take

1. stop giving
2. let's go to irb. they take action very fast since it involves money that can be taxable
3. report to police

New Beginning said...

Current status of preference of actions:

1. First Choice:
Stop Giving = 7 votes
IRB = 1 votes

2. Second Choice:
IRB = 4 votes
Police = 2 votes
Stop Giving = 2 votes

3. Third Choice:
Police = 5 votes
IRB = 2 votes
Legal Action= 1 vote

New Beginning said...

We need more votes!!!!

Why so long? said...

Dear THE GREAT WALL-BEIJING,

Your post was so confusing that it deserved its own reply despite my efforts to consolidate my replies.
I'll attempt to help answer your questions.


"To 'why so long'--please do not speculate and undermine, if you think you are right in your "Opinion", again; may i use the same word you used--its your "Opinion" only."

I'm sorry, when did I speculate and undermine? I was just expressing my views and your response is to question my motives? If it does indeed undermine this plan then perhaps my opinion is valid.

"Why so long?" i am afraid you cant wait to see Senior Pastor go to jail or lose his preaching licence sooner..hence, you are trying to tell the public here to rush up for his jail term, or being strip of his preaching licence"

I'm confused. Is this a threat or an accusation? I can't really tell.
If its a threat then I am surprised that you would say that because of my post someone is going to jail. You really are giving me more credit than I deserve. If it is an accusation then I feel compelled to deny that my intention is to send our pastor to jail. If anything, I am telling you though my post that the likelihood of that happening based on the information we have is non existent.

"Its your opinion that all things are ok, can you tell him on his face all things are ok?"

I never said everything was 'ok.' I was pointing out issues I have with the proposed action plan.

"Are you trying to be so naived and assumed nothing happened?"

Again, no. Read my post again please. I think you are sounding naive.

"In Bahasa-"tepuk sebelah tangan tak akan berbunyi"

Huh?

"Would you believed what you had known so far from this blog that these people have already got connected with WAGRA,AOG,NECF,POLICE,IRB,BANK NEGARA???
You have better not to believed, because again its an opinion.Would you believed if the people tell you no police report made? again its your opinion..."

Actually, if someone tells me they did something it then becomes their 'claim.' Then I have the responsibility to form my opinion based on my understanding of the facts and their 'claim.'

Thank you for your post.

CALVARY TODAY said...

Someone mentioned here about reporting to Bank Negara. Actually, one of us had already spoken to an ex-Bank Negara governor before the EGM. That ex-governor was most willing to help arrange a meeting with the appropriate dept head in Bank Negara. The only reason why the TT group held back was because of the severity of the penalty which is a jail sentence of up to 10 years and a fine of up to RM10 million. Not only can SP be charged but the entire board of deacons are equally liable. The evidence of the breach of law lies in the last 3 years annual reports and so it is inescapable. For obvious reasons, we will not divulge which section of the Banking Act the offence relates to. It will be with a very very heavy heart if we do decide to take this course of action because we do have a few very nice deacons with wonderful families and we do not wish to see them go to jail simply because of their ignorance or mis-guidance. Remember ignorance cannot be used as a defence in the court of law. Therefore, for the time being, we will not consider this drastic action.

We also wish to state here that from the time this whole crisis started in March until now, neither the board of deacons or SP has invited the TT group to the negotiating table to try to resolve all the issues amicably. It has been the TT group who has been pestering the board of deacons to meet for discussions all the while. Even with this blog
"airing all the dirty linens" for the world to see, as some of you have commented, none of the deacons, pastors or SP has shown any concern. None of them has called any of us to meet. They just don't care what happens to Calvary Church. This really amaze and saddens us. Words just can't describe the sorrow and grief that we feel in our hearts. Often, we weep in our prayers, in our quiet moments. At times, we feel like packing up and walking out but that small still voice says no.

To many of us, this is our only church, this is where we were saved, where we grew up, where we got married, where our kids were dedicated, where our kids will, someday, be married and where, hopefully, when our time comes, our bodies will lay in a memorial service. This is our home. And so, we will continue to shed that silent tear, we will continue to do what He has impressed upon us to do until we see His glory and His anointing fall afresh on our beloved church.

Hide evidence said...

Dear "Why take so long?"

You mentioned that "And at the EGM we have heard from various parties that no such evidence exists.".

For your info, assuming you are unaware, both the lawyer and forensic accountant based their investigations and reports only on DOCUMENTS SUPPLIED supplied to them by SP & BOD.

In other words, their profesional opinions are QUALIFIED. It does not, and I repeat, does not mean that SP has come clean. SP & BOD only chose to supply documents that they WANTED the lawyer and forensic accountant to see.

BTW, they are also smart people. Obviously they will not show evidence that will incriminate them. You don't have to be a lawyer to know that. I rest my case.

BNM violation said...

On the possible violation of one of BNM's legislation, concerned Calvarites are holding back because the potential consequences are SEVERE, not only for SP but BOD as well.

Members of BOD, please wake up from your slumber, and don't say "let God be God". Think of the possible consequences for you and your loved ones if someone "who really really beh tahan" were to report to BNM. It's not worth protecting SP. You should also protect your own interest.

True Story said...

Dear "Why So Long?"
You sound like King David in his Psalms when asking God why does it take so long for God to vindicate him against his enemies! However, the difference is, King David asked in sincerity and urgency of spirit but you asked in mockery!

Your eloquence in expressing yourself does not mean you are right in your assumptions, or mockery. You have a gift with words but you used it to mock those who are now speaking up for truth and transparency. You accuse us of 'just having opinions'! Isn't yours an opinion, too?

Our 'opinions' are based on FACTS, which you have conveniently chosen to ignore as you deride us...

FACT NO.1:
The minutes of BOD meetings have been shredded for the past 36 years that SP had been pastoring this church! I have never fouond another church that practises this deceit! The Archives Dept. of A/G have collected soem minutes of churches for the past 30 years! All their minutes record the decisions made by the churches' leadership - everything was recorded in black and white for the world to see. BUT NOT CALVARY! SP has something to hide, this is obvious....what is fact is that he has planned his absconding of funds for YEARS, which was why he came up with this devious scheme to destroy the minutes. And another fact is, the BOD are just so dumb to trust him when he was obviously pillaging and looting the church. That's FACT NO. 2, actually!~

FACT NO. 3
AT the EGM when suddenly the minutes were produced to show that the BOD had approved the transfer of funds to his own personal account, do you not smell a rat? It is a case worthy of Sherlock Holmes, because it is not just an opinion, as you have claimed!

Stick around, and we will take the time and the trouble to inform you of MORE FACTS, which you have purposely closed a blind eye to, because you are fooling yourself.

Show Show Only said...

I agree with "Hide Evidence".

There are many "que sera sera" out there who still maintain that the lawyer and forensic accountant engaged by BOD had "cleared" SP at the recent EGM. Well, they said so based on documents shown to them. What SP & BOD did not show, they did not know. This is known as SELECTIVE SHOWING.

It's likened to a scenario where SP decides to visit your home (which I never had this privilege from my shepherd for the last 27 years in CC), you will logically hide all those things that you don't want SP to see, eg. liquor, adult reading materials, etc, etc, but replace them with Bibles (a few copies maybe), Christian literature, play some Christian music, etc. so that he can say, hey, so and so is a saint. This is human nature.

True Story said...

Dear "Why so long,"

You have the cheek to say this, "Actually, if someone tells me they did something it then becomes their 'claim.' Then I have the responsibility to form my opinion based on my understanding of the facts and their 'claim.'"

and in the same breath, deny us the right to form our opinions based on claims made by SP and the BOD!

Surely, you remind me of the snake which spoke to Eve in the garden of Eden: "Did God say...?"

Surely, you are speaking with a forked tongue!

Let me give you more facts, while I am still on this site....

FACT NO. 4

EM said...
Hullo ER & SP, it's been more than 6 months since the AGM & you still haven't given us the Extended Ministries' Audited Accounts for the year ended 31st Dec 2007. Why so long ah?

I thought it was promised by ER that they would be ready by June 2008 which was more than 3 & 1/2 months ago. Are there anything therein which SP is afraid to show us? More skeletons in the closet? What sort of stewards are you for Him?
October 15, 2008 12:47 AM

FACT NO. 5

global downturn said...
was reading the papers today and read that expats in Spore have to now cut back on their perks/allowances. Many companies including mine have also revised their travelling policies to cut costs- everyone needs to travel economy class.hm, wonder if CC will also revise its travelling policy for SP,wife and son as well as cut back on perks/allowances.hm

Stick around....and we will give you MORE FACTS, enough evidence to put SP & BOD behind bars for the next 10 years!

THE GREAT WALL-Beijing said...

Dear'why so long'

Let me tell you, you are OUTLAWED!People with lots of opinions usually tend to be very confused! I would not be fitting into your agenda! and your entire OPINION! why LINGAM's issue take so long? answer for yourself.
Why no one knows there were such a recording on his whole conversations for so long?(correct..correct.correct.) why were there photos taken secretly on his vacation with some cronys in New Zealand?..huh..no EVIDENCE..you said it...shall we then wait for the evidence..? so please wait, do not question anymore! may i suggest that there is no threat here! you are the one who felt threatened bcoz you are confused!

Finally, I weep for Jesus Christ, for Calvary church, for YOU, it take you so long..so long..so long..to bargain for Senior Pastor and the entire leaderships in our church management.

waste time only said...

To all…don’t waste yr time any more explaining to ‘Why So Long’ as he obviously has no intentions of listening…he or she is posting on this blog NOT to be convinced but to try and AGITATE us readers with his ‘I’m right and you are all wrong’ attitude. So shall we move on to more important things like continuing to decide what our next options should be?

Another ex-staff said...

Let me distract you from, "why so long?"

SP & SAP do not walk the talk in the church office. His children also follow them, don't walk the talk. All church staff is compulsory to attend morning devotions and cannot be late or will be fined (money). 3 times absent, meet SP personally. But his children only attend once (1) a week. Our office policewoman dare not even ask them why. I suppose they meet their punishment everyday by seeing their father everyday.

They also can walk in late for work and no one dare to question them. Their daughter in law can walk out of office any time to take care of her children. SAP will always be seen carrying her grand children in the office.

Other church staff have to take leave to send our children and parents even to see doctor. Some staff who got long medical leave from doctors are asked, "why so long leave?" See the difference is you don't have a G name.

The Reinventer said...

Please proceed with all options suggested in the earlier post..

i think it is alright to allow 'why so long ' to distract...that will give the readers more opportunities to decide which best actions most appropriate..who knows the more distractions the better, someone else may just act quietly when readers here busy away with distractions!

So Cham said...

"Another ex-staff"

My sympathies to all the 'so cham' staff of Calvary! A good thing I was wise enough not to take up a full-time staff position with Calvary - my instincts told me that all was not well with Calvary Church many years ago. The scenario in the Calvary office is like a 'cold war' zone. Not surprising really...when the CEO, his mah chai, & BOD are not walking righteously before God, the door is opened for enemy infiltration, to cause strife, division, unhappiness, ungoldliness, quarrelling, jealousies, injustice, cliques, suspicions, etc. among the staff and their relationships with each other. It's a "dog eat dog" world there, or the Chinese version, "devil beat devil" world in Calvary Church office!

One of the staff who was pregnant thought that she could also ask for 'morning sickness' leave, on compassionate grounds, for a few hours every morning since the CEO's daughter-in-law was granted such liberty, but to her dismay and disappointment, she found out that such privileges are only for those with the surname 'G' tagged on to them!Cronyism rears its ugly head!

Anonymous said...

or rather, "nepotism".

Nepotism shows its ugly head said...

Dear ex-staff…like tat pun boleh? I guess nepotism is the unspoken law in CC. If you are a direct family member (and I quote direct as family members of son-in-law or daughter-in-law are not included in this double standards ruling), life is easy and comfortable – flexi hours, higher pay, high positions and you don’t need to follow the normal set of rules. Why the double standards…..if anything, you should have a much higher expectation on your own family members (son,daughter,wife,son-in-law,daughter-in-law) as compared to the other staff. What other staff can’t do or have to do must also be followed by the family members – why the double standards. It’s like CC belongs to the guneratnams and the rest of the staff are all peasants working for this monarchy.

stop the rot said...

Dear "Why So Long",

I'll try to respond to ur post as construtively as i could.
Indeed why so long, it's because, as God is not willing that any (sp) should perish but come to repentance.
However Scriptures exhort us to NOT show contempt for the riches of His kindness, tolerance and patience, & to realise that God's kindness leads us towards repentance.

U didn't want to talk about moral issues, WHY NOT? Why just talk on legal implications? The yardstick should be moral
After all, God's laws are moral in nature; when He said "Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not give false witness, Thou shalt not covet; He meant exactly that.
U can call it siphon, divert, transfer, park, deposit, whatsoever to cloud the issue, to cover up. It doesn't matter, it's stealing, plain & simple.
U can argue legally till the cows come home, but morally & ethically the whole episode stinks to high heavens.

POET said...

I have revised my poem to make it more rhyming....please bear with me, loh! poets are like that, very meticulous in little details...hehehe :)

ER, ER, BOD Treasurer,
We want to see, we want to see,oh pretty please?
True accounts, audited and sure,
Expose the dark secrets of Extended Ministries.

SP has lots of secrets to hide,
Living a lie, the Great Pretender!
To his flesh he had not died,
A liar, a thick-skinned covetor!

October 15, 2008 9:41 AM

5did5did said...

Dear Why so Long,
SP, when asked by the TTG about the money, replied, "the bod, whom u all voted in gave me the money"
Sound familiar? Man will always try to justify their wrong doings (legally speaking).
The deceitfulness & craftiness of sp & the subservient behaviour & attitude of the bod is so glaringly visible during the egm; there is none so blind as those who would not see.
U think they will get away with their conduct during the egm, i'm saying God is not mocked.

U have said, there's no evidence, just opinions, just like sp used to say, "it's your opinion"
Well, isn't it ironical that all those documents (minutes) never saw the light of day : all were returned after the meeting & shredded.
Yet all those (selective) documents were made available to the lawyer & accountant but not to own members.
Since u mentioned, could u volunteer those documents to the TTG to go thru, who knows, more truths might be revealed.
After all, sp & bod were forced to hold the farcical egm to 'explain' the money after the discovery by the TTG (u think sp & bod are so transparent & magnanimous that they hosted the egm willingly? - remember, they even voted against tabling the accounts of the extended ministries a few months earlier).
Should the documents be available for scrunity and evidence gathered from them thereafter, i would volunteer myself to make the police report.

mad said...

i do believe what some of the ex staff claims and had observed as double standard. yes i know it as a fact . any staff involve in ministry has to take leave to be doing ministry work but not the G family. for them everything is church work including going to market and picking up their kids.

SP children and grand children are given the impression that CC belong to them and the rest work there.

Even his grand son threaten adults like me....AL would say i will tell my grand father if he does not get his way.
Pastor Susan Tan's saga and she leaving CC was because of his grandchild

Now about dinner . afters all this talk about those taking part has to pay.The church now has decide to charge RM 50 . and kids RM 25. the church simply don't appreciate the sacraficial of the members.

Timothy Ong has 101 reason why the head users were remove. His apology is to justify . Is he a member of UMNO. Actually he is just being consistent . he is constantly indifferent and a story teller. TImothy Ong i suggest you do some soul searching. i dare not do what you do in the corporate world.the different between me and you is you are call to feed his sheep not stumble them.i am just a tent maker.

angry said...

People might say why are we bringing up all this ‘personal’ stuff about sp & his family but I tell u tat it is all interlinked and shows his true self. It all stems from sp being the selfish, ungodly, overly ambitious ceo that he is that resulted in all tat is happening in the church, whether it is money issues or staff unhappiness or nepotism. So again, we are asking now, why hasn’t the person responsible for all this spoken yet? Is it becoz he has no good explanation for all he has done? Speak up I ask of u, sp and be a man.

strange said...

Hey, any of you noticed the traffic map? many red dots were missing la. Oregon, Texas, Springfield, Michigan in fact all on USA one has gone! Why ar? So strange this morning I still saw them. Hmmm...

Ah Beng said...

Ya lah, Strange.

Now that you mentioned it, I also realised that the 4 places you mentioned which were still there yesterday are now missing from the map of North America BUT a new red dot (Waterloo, Ontario, Canada) has appeared this morning & it is the only red dot still there on North America.

I wonder is this a prophesy from God? Will SP meet his Waterloo at this blog?

Only God knows & only Time will tell, meanwhile I call on all Concerned Calvarites to continue to uphold CC (& the mess created by SP & BOD) to God in prayer that He will have mercy on His children at CC by bringing out the Truth which is still out there.

De bright one said...

Dear Strange,

The map will only show the most recent visitors to the site. I am not sure for how long each visit is shown (i.e. for 2 or 3 days) Once they do not log in after say 2 days, the dot disappear.

Voter said...

I vote for the removal of SP and SAP from pastoring Calvary, and for the cessation of the Guneratnam Dynasty, ASAP!

Just like King Saul and his three sons who were removed from the picture by the Hand of God.

My vote:

1. Stop giving
2. Boycott 40th A dinnner
3. Lodge Police Reports
4. Legal Actions
5. Report to AG Council, World Assembly, WAGRA.
6.. Report IRD
7. Report Bank Negara

If PO will not wise up, because of misplaced loyalty, then so be it, he will have to face the consequences as well. He should have feared God instead of man. He should have obeyed God instead of man.

Conspiracy Theorist said...

Hi Strange,

UFO watchers in US suspect conspiracy by their govt to hide the truth from them.

Maybe, just maybe, SP & BOD have removed the dots from the satellite map.

Well, if they can remove evidence, they can even remove those dots.

In both US case and CC case, the truth is still out there.

Mathematician said...

Hi fellow bloggers,

Waterloo in Canada is home to University of Waterloo which reputedly has the top-ranked mathematics school in the world.

Maybe, one of their professors is on our side (the side of truth) working on the best combination of actions for us to pursue.

Why so long? said...

Sigh ...

I'll try to respond as best I can. But seriously guys, if you can't argue with me on the issues don't try to discredit me as an excuse for your frustration of knowing that I have a point.

1. I don't understand why some are so offended because of my "opinions vs. facts" argument. I never claimed to be above the argument. And in my subsequent replied, I have agreed.

2. I only wrote to address the implications of taking this issue to the degree of a legal matter. Therefore, the moral issues have no bearing on the argument in which the author of the post asked for a opinion on what actions to take. I am very willing to have a discussion on morality and spirituality but that will require another long post which has little to do with this one.

3. But your failure to understand the real issue is what is disturbing. Having any opinion is fine. But when it requires action, then you cannot just work based on opinion. You have to act on facts.

Let me give you an illustration:

"Lets say Lim and Chong a neighbors. They are polite to each other but secretly Chong doesn't like Lim. One day Chong buys a brand new BMW. Every day he wakes up, polishes it and enjoys the thrill that comes with driving a nice new car.

After awhile he notices that Lim has taken interest in his car. On occasion, he has seen Lim walking up to his car and is busy admiring the car.

One morning, Chong wakes up and notices that his car has a scratch. Naturally he suspects that Lim is the culprit.

Can Chong go and make a police report? Of course he can. But without any proof the police report is only worth the paper its written on."

This is my point. This is all I am saying. You can form an opinion. That is fine. Absolutely nothing wrong with forming an opinion.

My point so far has been only this - That a criminal and legal investigation will not have any effect without facts.

Calvary Today,

Thank you for your reply. I wanted to write earlier but the business of the day got the better of me.

Anywayy, after reading your post I am appreciative of the fact that you had considered the families of those who will be affected by a decision like this.

However if this is truly the sentiment of the TT gang then:

1. Why did the author include this as a suggestion if you believe that it is an action of last resort? What purpose did it serve to ask the blogosphere if you really don't want to do it?

2. At which point can you determine that it is time to take actions of 'last resort'? What will have to happen for you to feel that you have no other choice?

I am interested to know and I trust many who read this blog are.

Thank you for your thoughts and opinions.

Simpleman said...

Dear "Why So Long",

Frankly speaking, I don't seem to get your point behind your illustration. Please blog in simple plain language, and straight to the point. Then your fellow bloggers will surely get your point.

Most of us are simple people with simple faith in God.

Anonymous said...

‘Why So Long’…Since u have so many questions and opinions,maybe it’s better to look for one of the TT members (I’m sure you know who the main ones are) and ask to have a cup of tea with them so that they can address all your opinions once and for all. To sum up your comments, can I say that what you are saying is that the TT Group is just using scare tactics to scare SP and the BOD eg. To report to the police when in reality, they have no grounds and no evidence to do so? Just do as what I adviced and sit down with the TT members and I’m sure they’ll be more than happy to explain to you their facts one by one. Perhaps if you’re nice enough,they might even show you the evidence that you want.

Curious said...

"Why so long"is just trying to fish for info.
In his/her comment did you notice that a few paras were repeated twice. It is his/her way of repeating some info that because you read it twice you tend to think it is correct.

Why is he/she so interested whether there is sufficient evidence and when is the action going to be??

He or she had not even mentioned a way to get the person at the center of this dispute to come out in the open.

So be careful how you reply

Simpleman said...

Yes, Anonymous, you're right.

For clarity, "Why so long?" should arrange for teh tarik with key TT members to brainstorm your suggestions, if any.

It's better than ding-donging on this blog and getting nowhere but all boiled up.

If you don't want to reveal your identity for whatever reason, put on a mask. We can arrange for it to be sent to you.

cin cai said...

why so long?

You seem to know so much about what is inside (physically inside i mean)the church, i find it hard to believe you are not from there.

How do you know the TT members have no proof, no evidence and documents etc, ect. You are so sure all they have is opinion. Unless you know for a fact that SP has destroyed those evidence or got KK wong to continue to represent him like he is representing Baginda - the most famous criminal lawyer now.

Like you say we don't let you talk. You also don't let the others talk. What you expect readers here do? Agree with you? This blog is TTG's blog and you expect all here to believe you.

You and TTG readers are of two different frequency - u tune in then be prepared to listen to TTG news. You speak SP news when you talk to him. Anyway good for readers here, we can see why the TTG has so much difficulty getting their msg across to SP, SAP, all other Ps & BOD. Cin cai lah we continue to listen to you.

Simpleman said...

Hi TT members,

In that case, better for key TT members to put on masks too when meeting "Why So Long?" so that he does not know their identity too.

Q.E.D. said...

"Why so long?", I don't think you have been a follower of the Lord for that long lah & even if you have, I wonder why you are still so immature & still not getting the picture? I now have to ask you "why so long" already ah & you still don't get the picture, still harping on the legalities (just like SP & BOD)? SP, BOD & yourself have all failed to remember & thus realise that CC is a CHURCH (not secular body, as SP has always declared from the pulpit but then he conveniently used secular means at EGM to wriggle himself out of his mess - why didn't he pray to God?); thus we are talking of spiritual & moral issues here like conflict of interest, having no faith in God, etc., etc.

Since you insist on sticking to the legailities just like the Pharisees, I will level with you on that plane. As regards your using of Lim & Chong, I wonder how many Lims & Chongs have been hurt or offended by your insensitive use of their surnames; next time just use A & B - OK? Maybe you need to extend your apologies to them.

Though you have answered yourself that Chong can make a police report, your comment that "without any proof the police report is only worth the paper its written on" only makes my toes laugh (as they say).

Have you ever made any police report before? I wonder. You don't need to have the proof to make a police report, you just need to have reasonable grounds to believe that a crime has been committed; it is the police dept.'s job to investigate & look for the proof & evidence. If you wait for proof then either the criminal(s) has run away or the policemen will have no job & our economy will be more "teruk".

Whilst I have your attention, let me try to answer your questions to the author.

Q1A - Why did the author include this as a suggestion if you believe that it is an action of last resort? - The author is not obliged to reveal the rationale to you as you could be SP or BOD trying to find out; so the answer remains with the author & of course God knows. Anyway, if you really want to know, go ask God in prayer loh.

Q1B - What purpose did it serve to ask the blogosphere if you really don't want to do it? - The author didn't said that he/she didn't want to do it. Oi, can you understand English or not? He/she just said that it will be the last resort (go see your own Q1A above).

Q2A - At which point can you determine that it is time to take actions of 'last resort'? - Just like the answer in Q1A above, the author is not obliged to reveal to you as you could be SP or BOD trying to find out; so the answer remains with the author & God, plus obviously when the time comes God will speak to him/her. Are you not aware that TT crew prays & waits upon the Lord for each & every move as they have been raised up by God to do His bidding to cleanse CC so that His Glory can fall upon CC again.

Q2B - What will have to happen for you to feel that you have no other choice? - I trust that God will, in His time, speak to the author to go for it (making the police report).

Your questions have now been answered - Q.E.D.

Super Sleuth said...

"Why So Long,"

Why are you going round & round the mulberrry bush? Just get straight to the point!~

The shredding of at least 10 years of the BOD meetings' minutes is a vast difference from the scratching of a new car by unknown persons! We KNOW who was responsible for the shredding of the minutes!

I suspect you are ER, of BOD! I remember he said, in his efforts to justify the transfer of funds into SP's CIM account,"Is it wrong for a mother to give money to the daughter to use?" (or something to that effect!), meaning, "Is it wrong for Calvary Missions Dept. to give money to CIM to use?"

The round-a-bout way that ER reasons things to justify the covetousness of SP, whom he was trying to defend, is QUITE, QUITE similar to yours!

Reality Check said...

Dear "Why So Long",

You will never be able to get a constructive and objective reply from most of the writers here because you seemingly do not subscribe to their agenda of ousting Senior Pastor out of the church.

Try and reason as hard as you can with them but they will scathe and ridicule you as they have done Senior Pastor and the Deacons.

2 Tim 2 & 4 (excerpts of verses) say :-
"Steer clear of foolish discussions which lead people into the sin of anger with each other. Run from anything that gives you the evil thoughts that young men often have, but stay close to anything that makes you want to do right. Have faith and love and enjoy the companionship of those who love the Lord and have pure hearts. God’s people must not be quarrelsome; they must be gentle, patient teachers of those who are wrong. Be humble when you are trying to teach those who are mixed up concerning the truth. For if you talk meekly and courteously to them they are more likely, with God’s help, to turn away from their wrong ideas and believe what is true."

If these verses were not from the Bible, they will tear these words apart too!!

But at least you have attempted to shine some light into their dark den of wickedness. Ha...this comment should infuriate them because the truth hurts!!

This one-sided blog and the slamming of writers like you who try to reason objectively are the very undoing of their cause.

Now, let's just wait and see how nasty they will get in reply to this post!!The milk in their tea should be curdled by now....

Play mulberrry bush said...

Hi everybody,

Take cover, I suspect "Why So Long?" is an undercover, trying to fish for information for SP & BOD.

Let him ask, but we must play smart too. Take him round the mulberrry bush, and I believe he will surely say "why so long?", still haven't reach the end of this game.

Simpleman said...

Reality Check,

It takes a fool to recognise fools. LOL.

Please don't quote Scriptures out of context.

CALVARY TODAY said...

To why so long? Your question ;

1. Why did the author include this as a suggestion if you believe that it is an action of last resort? What purpose did it serve to ask the blogosphere if you really don't want to do it?

Our question : Include this as a suggestion. What is "this suggestion"? Please be specific.
Is it Report to police or Report to Bank Negara?

Please also specify which part of the write up is your question refering to. The main posting? or the Comment section?

To all readers, especially SP's sympathisers, please be very specific in posting your questions to us. We are a team and when we read, all of us here perceive your question differently. So ask simply.

Thanks & God bless.

Simpleman said...

Reality Check,

Either you have not blogged before or you are not real. To blog you have to be patient as not all will always see what you see all the time. And if they don't and you're not happy, choose to be happy as the song goes.

If you continue to be unhappy blogging here because others don't share your views, blog elsewhere.

Here, we choose to blog happily even if we differ in approach, but ultimately we want right the wrong in CC.

Be a happy blogger like me.

Let's be focused said...

Let us all forget about answering this "why so long?" and the new comer "reality check". They are diverting our attention from the ex-staff who have shared the inside stories. They don't want to have more ex-staff writing so they are wasting space here with their merry-go-round. Exactly like what they do at AGMs & EGMs.

Ex-staff, please tell us more and the rest stay focused and be self-controlled. Don't waste blogging space.

super sleuth said...

"Reality Check"

Thank you for that scripture - it helps me to understand you & "Why So Long," and even "Having Fun" better! Truly a foolish man, like yourself,& the other two mentioned, will not heed instruction, the Book of Proverbs say. That's why your 'modus operandi' is one of confusion, just going round and round, trying to sound wise but are actually.....displaying your ignorance and stubborness for all to see. But it's alright really, our Lord has taught us to love the unlovely, so there!
We do love you, truly.

Unhappy said...

Yes, I agree with "Let's be focused". We must conserve blogging space by not getting entangled in trivial discourse with the unfocused and detractors.

I'm no ex-staff, but I'm very close to CC staff. My sources tell me that SP sacked all the staff of Calvary Printing Press (only 2 by the way) without following proper labour law (immediate dismissal I heard) and ordered PO to change the locks to the premises just in case they came in to remove the printing machine which is old enough to be on display at our musuem.

By the way, one of them has left CC after SP's shameful act. SP stumbled him. The other one is still hanging on.

SP forever said...

Reality check….i see the error of my ways and admit you are rite and I m wrong.okla,from now on,I will agree to obey SP fully. I will give all my hard earned salary for him to fly business class all over the world coz after all,how is he to go to countries like India without flying? Silly me, I was expecting him to ride a bicycle to India at first, but I fully regret my opinions and support that he uses RM15-RM20k per trip to go even to Singapore. After all,he is our senior pastor aka CEO and his benefits should be the same as those CEOs of big multi billion organizations. He is not young anymore,so if he flies economy class instead of business class, you’re rite…I’m scared he might just get the cramps or a backache and is not be able to preach the next day. How terrible of me to expect him to preach with a backache! Tsk tsk. Also, I agree now that SP and wife should keep the RM1.9m in CIM.after all,it is given to them by the BOD and if they were to return it back to church, it would look like they are not appreciative towards the BOD’s generous hearts. Eventhough the BOD did not inform us memberes about this, it’s understandable as we have no say whatsoever to how the funds that we give are to be used. Even if the BOD decide to use the funds to buy SP a private jet, I think it’s understandable as they are the people put in power by us to make such decisions. U are my heroes, BOD…
As for SP’s salary, I think RM30k per month is far too low..come on! How can we expect him to survive with just RM30k each month? He has to feed his wife and himself every day and pay for electricity for his bungalow and petrol for his volvo…anything less,and he’ll be suffering. As such, I propose to raise his salary to RM50k per month! In order to do so, let’s further cut the salaries of the other staff since they are not as committed as him in serving God. Only SP deserves such high salary as we can see from the videos of how he has travelled all over the world to share to people about the gospel and this is evidence that he has a proven ministry and deserves nothing but the best! Who cares if other people are suffering as a result? He is the only one we need to take care of!
Gosh, why have we malicious and arrogant people been demanding for accountability and transparency all this while? All this is not needed la….accountability is not needed when it comes to the affairs of calvary church. Forget about all truth and fairness…I laugh at your face, truth and fairness..ha ha ha! Long live SP!

Super-duper Sleuth said...

SP Forever,
You're my hero! Well said! You've convinced me,too! Let's just 'lay down our arms' and rally round SP, SAP, & the honest, God-fearing BOD and celebrate together with them Calvary's 40th Anniversary and, never mind about whether Calvary Church is 40 years old or 47 years old, lah! A little "grey lie" is acceptable to the Lord, after all! SP is his 'anointed servant' so how can he be wrong, loh! Let God be God and if SP is wrong God will know how to strike him down with a bolt of lightning, when he is on one of those flying-in-style-by business class trips to India to promote his multi-million-dollar, oops, Ringgit, ministry!

Visual Impact said...

Do proceed with all actions. i am afraid i dont quite agreed with Diana, the TT group had done everything, deferred their actions, met with deacons, wait for EGM, after EGM, still write ,still do all the necessaries..yet no response from senior management--sp? so i fully support all actions they planned or done.
Thank you Calvarytoday, without you. life is not so excited, now got one more past time and interesting subject to discuss each day..hallelujah.Amen

SP Forever II said...

Dear SP Forever,

How dare you ask SP o fly 1st class only! We should buy him a Gulf Stream, the top-of-the-range private jet, refurbish it like what they show on Astro Channel 707(Life of the Rich & Famous). He can do LOTT routine, otherwise not comfortable enough.

We should get a PA to fly with him, carry his bag and do all the arrangements, so that he's fresh to preach.

Simple Housewife said...

Thanks Diana for your thought provoking comment.

Maybe we should approach all the National Christian Bodies fr them to handle this issue. We shall press for them to act more quickly. But rest assured, they are aware and they are looking into it. We are in touch with them. You pray along with us for God's wisdom to be upon them.

Karen

On behalf of Acronyms said...

Just read this in another posting. Sounds very logical why sp needs to stash away money for retirement.

"SP obviously doesn't walk the talk about one should live in faith. Why does he need to secretly transfer funds of RM 1.9 million from CC to CIM? Is it because he has (as told by SP to BOD) withdrawn his EPF for Junior's house & SP now needs to rebuild his EPF savings?

Where is SP's faith? Even if he has diminished his EPF savings (as claimed by him), SP only need to look towards God who is his EPF (Ever Proving Father), as well as ours."

Sorry I borrowed without permission.

sp forever said...

my bad, sp forever ii..sorry lo..i'm still new in the I LOVE SP TIL I DIE camp,so still learning,still learning. give chance ya and don't say I'm malicious ok.you've got a good idea on the PA part...good job!after all,if we wanna do something,must go all out to do it rite..like build a new church,must build one costing RM300m!after all,if the govt can build elaborate buildings like KLCC and other religions can build beautiful prayer places etc, we should outdo them and build something tat can be recorded into the Msian book of records!show 'em who's boss...hooray!We have shown the world tat we are the best and richest church!don't mess with our 10,000 congregation, and let us just celebrate 40 years of the building's age in peace!

Why so long? said...

Calvary Today,

All my posts have to do with taking legal and criminal action.

On Oct 16, 3:31am you said:

"The only reason why the TT group held back was because of the severity of the penalty which is a jail sentence of up to 10 years and a fine of up to RM10 million. Not only can SP be charged but the entire board of deacons are equally liable."

You were referring to a report to Bank Negara but to do this a Police Report and/or an IRD report would have to be filed at some point.

Unless you are implying that somehow a Bank Negara report would be able to lead to a jail sentence without the poilce getting involved. If that is the case then perhaps you are more informed than I and can enlighten me on how a report to Bank Negara works.

Also don't forget to answer the second part of my question as to when you will feel that a report to Bank Negara would be deemed necessary.

Thank you for your time in answering this question.

---

In another issue, perhaps unrelated, I would like to point out that there aren't two groups here as you seem to suggest. Its not TT Gang vs. SP Gang. Thats a very simplistic way to look at it.

There is a group of us who feel that the BOD has responded adequately for now and we are giving them time to produce the results they are committed to produce. We feel that the TT Gang is bulldozing the issue too fast. This is where I stand. The TT Gang has pointed out an error and the BOD has taken steps to correct that. The TT Gang should give itself a pat on the back and give it time.

Like you I pity the BOD as they are in a tough spot. They aren't full time workers and they are doing their best. Perhaps it is true that in the past they have neglected their role but thats just a speculation.

---
Whats important is that now they are stepping up to the plate to make things right. Lets give them time to do it. Its only been 2 months since the EGM.

The point is that there are more than just two groups of people. People aren't that simple. We are more complex than that. To put us in a box like that is an insult to our intelligence.

---

I'll check this page again tomorrow morning to especially hear from Calvary Today but also to read the other colorful replies that will no doubt follow.

I will not jump into the lake said...

Reality Check,
thanks for quoting that verse. It has made me realized even more that SP is wrong and is a bad shepherd to us all.The verse says that "God's people must be gentle,patient teachers of those who are wrong.Be humble when you are trying to teach those who are mixed up concerning the truth." I guess since SP thinks we're wrong, he should by right be gentle and patient and humble to us right? But did he do as such? NADA, I tell you. He proceeded to witchhunt,to ask us to go jump into the lake,to condemn us and remains till now arrogant. So if anything,I think this verse is meant for him...can you pls email him the verse too? thanks so much!

Roll-Over and Over said...

We as group of young people, working young adults, hereby also support all actions taken by the tt group.

Thank you for all the hard works and enduring,endless cemments that you have to moderate.

We do it for the sake of the future of calvary church.amen

De bright one said...

Looks as if "Why so Long" is a Deacon (PT?).

Diana's suggestion is good but the local General Council would not be able to handle SP as they are all so junior and had been under SP for so long. To get NECF involved would make SP lose face.

Food for thought:
I would suggest that if the local General Council is not up to facing him, then they should invite someone from AG Springfield to step in (definitely not Pastor Guynes).

Having said that, it would be wise for whoever is handling the situation to have a roundtable discussion with the TT group and then only meet SP.

SM said...

Alright, guys, we have enough fun going out of tangent in our debates, let's re-focus on what to do next. Don't mind more true stories from ex-staff or ex-deacons or ex-leaders. That way, we will understand more of the character of SP and his bondages so we can pray more specifically and know what to cast out of him.

And to Diana, we have been bleating sheepishly since the agm while SP has been goating..oops, I mean gloating. The TT group has officially written to AG and NECF quite sometime ago but nothing's happened and nothing gonna happened coz shepherds will also take care of each other. Going to police is not wrong. If I see a Christian committing an offence and I just counsel him and advise him to stop, I can be arrested for abetting and witholding knowledge of the crime. God has given us wisdom in applying His word to a particular situation. Just like when a rape victim gets pregnant. Can she abort the baby? The bible says "Thou shall not Kill". But if she doesn't abort, she may have to endure a lifetime of re-living her nightmare each time she see the semblance of the rapist in the child. What right have we to demand that she obeys the commandment and endure the suffering? I don't advocate abortion but it will be her decision and one that she has to live with.

Similarly, we should not judge the TT group or any member or supporter who reports to the police or files a legal suit. If SP has to go to jail to have his life straightened out, so be it. At least, he ends up in heaven. If we let him be, he may end somewhere else. The legal system of this world is not the work of Satan, it is also God's design. That why we accept Christian lawyers, prosecutors, judges and policemen. If going the legal way is wrong, then we should not condone Christians working in the legal system, we should not abide with the legal system. We cannot send a non-Christian to jail for a crime and merely rebuke a fellow Christian for the same offence.

SM said...

Forgot to mention one important info. SP is the adviser to NECF, he is the General Superintendent Emeritus of AG Malaysia. He ain't gonna advise the boards of NECF and AG to rebuke himself. He stupid, meh.

The AG USA has no jurisdiction over AG Malaysia, so how. Bleat..bleat..bleat..

spare the rod,spoil the child said...

Dear Sis Diana..
I've always enjoyed reading your comments etc. Understand why you're saying what you're saying...I guess at this point in time, the fuzzy line between saving CC and ousting SP is too blurred up.I'm sure the TT team have tried their level best to solve this problem internally to save CC but somehow, after months and months of hitting a wall, it looks like the option to save CC or to oust SP has now co-mingled, ie. since SP does not want to admit his mistakes and retire to become an evangelist as per his calling, there is no way of saving CC without ousting SP.I guess in a way, it is SP who has mashed the 2 together, he feels that CC belongs to him and if we were to want to save CC, the only way is if he is no longer there; otherwise,if SP does not leave, CC will never be saved :( well,this is just my personal opinion since I'm not from the TT team...

CALVARY TODAY said...

Dear Why so long?

Please email your contact number and name to tehtariktruth@gmail.com. One of us will meet up with you and show you the evidence, the Banking Act as well as the legal opinion on other issues.

We believe that you are sincere in wanting to know the truth and to do what is right. After we show you the evidence, be prepared to sign a joint undertaking with us to file a report to the authorities when the time comes. We also need financial support to engage the best lawyers to file a suit against SP and BOD. We will accept whatever help you can extend.

God Bless.

Simple Housewife said...

Dear Diana,

So sorry I have given you the wrong impression. Looks like the lastest with the team with regards to our National Christian Bodies did not or is not turning out the way we hoped it would.

Next time must check with the other half first before replying. Anyway, I believe that God is in control. Although humanly it looks no good, but our God is Good at turning "no good into good".

Karen

The Trampled Rose said...

Dear Karen,

Thank you for your reply. Yes, I will pray continually for God to speak to the peers of SP and to the Christian leaders of AG and of Christiandom.

And to SM, thank you for your comment. I know that all authority is under God and I for one,do not at think that the legal system is of Satan.

However, may I request that you do consider this one fact. During the time when Paul wrote what he wrote in 1 Corinthians 6; the legal system was already in place to deal with dispute, just like our courts. Maybe not so extensive, but enough to handle the problems of that era.

Yet, do you not think it strange that still, Apostle Paul said what he said to the Corinth Christians? Paul's words was actually a rebuke to those in the church who chose this option even though this option was within their rights. May I humbly suggest that you reflect on this matter and search deeply for the reason why Paul did that?

Could it be that as Christians, while there are valid options - such as legal recourse open to us, and it is our right to exercise that option, we have a higher calling and to live according to God's truths more than just to exercise our rights?

You see, the key to this verse is where Paul refers to the time in Revelation, when we will return with Christ and judge the nations.

What Paul is saying is this - if we Christians are going to come with Christ and perform this task of judging the nations ( consider this a large task) - then, something smaller than that task - we cannot sort it out within the realms of Christiandom? That within the world of Christiandom, there is no one wise among us to help sort this SAGA out?

Yes, I agree with you that there are Christians in the legal system - I am sure that during the times of the Corinth church, there were also Christians in the legal system. No argument about that.

Yet, if we were to take the legal recourse,will it be guaranteed that it will heard before a Christian judge? Will the judgement be following God's laws?

Yet, it does not change God's Word to us and I believe (you are free to differ) that if God gave this word to Paul to give the church of Corinth - then He will stand by His Word - which we know will always be relevant and real, no matter the era. God's principles never change.

To further explain myself. This verse is not only for us alone. It is for also for the AG Council and other AG pastors. Is there not one of you pastors, who will stand up and do what is right than conveniently hide behind the excuse of "CC is a sovereign church, so this is an internal church matter"?

To all the pastors, do you want to see CC members having to fend for themselves and take other means that will have disastrous consequences and bearing on the testimony of Christ in Malaysia and perhaps, beyond, just because not one stood up to help?

I was taught at BCM that as Christians, we should learn to stand up for justice and truth. I pray and hope that I will see the pastors who taught that, live up to what they taught.

I am sorry if what I said offends anyone reading this blog. I mean no disrespect. Yet, I stand by my convictions and what I said.

God bless
Diana

Logically Speaking said...

Dear Diana,
Whilst I understand where you are coming from, I need to point out the 'unspoken decorum' being exercised by the pastors of A/G especially in their personal and working relationship with one another - the amount of politeness, courtesy and respect they show to each other prevents them from interfering or intervening in the affairs of another's church. They are of the general consensus that SP has to go but no way they are going to get involved - you must understand that SP has been Gen. Supt. for 26 years and was responsible for the growth of A/G movement in Malaysia. The TT crew have already tried to approach A/G General Council & even the NECF, but to no avail - their answers, as far as I understand from what I have read from all the updates posted, is that those in 'high positions' feel that "there is nothing they can do."

If the BOD are co-operative with the TT crew, they have the authority to demand that SP & SAP step down or retire or resign. Unfortunately, the BOD (save one) is on their side, & somehow our Constitution gives them ultimate authority! SP has seen to it that these 6 BOD are his 'yes men/woman'! SP is a smart player! He had covered all his ground because he had planned this for many, many years.

Looks like there is no other option for us but to report to the authorities. Unless you want to see Calvary Church functioning as the personal business empire of the Guneratnams.

stop the rot said...

Dear Diana
You said,
Is there not one of you pastors, who will stand up and do what is right than conveniently hide behind the excuse of "CC is a sovereign church, so this is an internal church matter"?

I also wonder who will and who can stand up for CC???

At the moment the only group is TTG
I believe with all my heart that God raise this group. In fact one of them shared that God impressed upon her heart to pray for evidence. She quickly got a few others to pray,and sure enough God caused the evidence to been shown.
God is indeed in control.He will continue to guide and gives wisdom to the TTG.Do Pray along with us.
Just a point to consider.
If Paul did not go to jail, he would have written some books of the bible. Let's not confine God to certain doings.
Richard w.Dortch who wrote on Fatal Deceit and Integrity: How I lost and found it, is a very good book that you may want to read.Richard Dortch was sent to prison and during that time, he repented. You can search google for his info.

You mentioned;
I was taught at BCM that as Christians, we should learn to stand up for justice and truth.

TRUE very true.It is also written in the bible, Thou shall not covet, but what happened to our SP?

Is easier say than do.

Like you mentioned earlier in one of the blog, SP got 'MONEY PROBLEM'
SP told his staff he did not use the money that is parked in his personal ministry.
HAHAHAHA.
If God vindicate, I don't think any of us will be here. I know you have been praying much for CC. Do continue to pray for wisdom for the TTG.

Why so long? said...

Dear Calvary Today,

I will send you an email later this evening to arrange for a meeting with one of you. Thank you for responding and extending the offer to take the time to meet with me and explain the various issues involved.

However, I do think my questions are of the interest of the public and as such I am of the opinion that you should feel free to answer these questions right here.

You can be brief and non-specific if you feel that the information is not for public domain but still there needs to be some clarity.

To recap, my issues (in brief) are:
1. Why go to the police, IRD or Bank Negara if no concrete evidence is available? **

2. You have expressed that the actions above are actions of 'last resort.' If so, how will you determine if such a time has arrived and what exactly needs to take place in order for you to determine when this is?

Thank you in advance for your answers.

---

** Note: As far as I have seen on this blog and in the various updates, no damaging facts have been presented. The facts that have been given have required speculation in order to have relevance. Should there be facts that the TTG have kept in private, might I suggest that it be brought forward for all to see.

De bright one said...

Why so long - still fishing for info?? Want to know the facts to shred evidence??


Hope the TT group is not that naive to do that.

Remember if you meet them and shown the facts, you are under obligation to sign de agreement to jointly join them to take action. Think on this.

No need so long. said...

TTG be careful what you show. It might be a trap. You show then he/she will report to sp or bod. Then they cover their tracts like they did at EGM. Maybe they get KK Wong to come back and tell 1/2 story from legal point again to confuse people or convince members that you guys cannot sue them. Scare tactics all over. Keep what you have to yourself. We trust you.

Hey why so long? If you like to know so much, the TT guys are always hanging around after service, you go speak to any of them lah. We all here very susah to keep hearing the same questions over and over from you. No need so long winded. Go see them personally and bring a pen to sign that whatever document they say you must sign.

suspicious said...

'Why so long' is not to be trusted,lah! He's one of the BOD who have betrayed or 'sold out' the people of Calvary Church, for a bowl of pottage.

Why so long? said...

de bright one & no need so long,

I am not the one who offered to meet. The Teh Tarik Gang did. Calvary Today replied at 10:21pm on Oct 16 (last night) and suggested that we have that discussion.

Real IC Name said...

TTG members. One favour please. After this why so long sign that "joint undertaking" to file a report with the relevant authorities, please scan and show us here that document. In case he shred his copy, the one on this blog cannot be erased. Make sure you see his IC. Record his IC name and not just christian name only. When go to court he will deny that is his name.

Also make him state how much he is willing to chip in for the legal fees in black and white. Even RM10-00 (ten ringgit)also take. Thanks.

Anti Broker said...

To : calvarytoday

1. what is the agenda of the meeting with why so long?

2. why he had to make appointment with CT(calvarytoday) through the comments column?

3. if he/she so cared and concerened and humble, this is not the proper platform to arrange for appointment and negotiations! Why should CT be subjected to such terms?

4. Why he/she alone?

5. Who is he representing?

6. If he/she is a church member, he/she can always call CT, i am sure he/she know most of them in CT..

7. He/she can always declare his/her identity if he/she is genuine

8. Wise up..this is like blind -dating on internet, CT can be contrued as conspiring!

9. In Christian approach, any kinds of such dealing is not appropriate.

10. I oppose that Calvarytoday meetup, unless their identity revealed ..why so secret..shame on you(why so long)!

Blind Date said...

yes, i agreed with Anti-Broker, no meeting up.

'why so long'--please reveal your actual name and phone no. and hopefully one of the concern calvarites will call you, otherwise you are wasting your time by hiding behind 'why so long'

I suggest calvarytoday should not agree to meet any unidentified person.

slightly bright said...

"anti broking" could be "why so long" in disguise. Both of their MO (modus operandi) are the same - fishing for info. Notice that "anti broking" address his 10 points to Calvary Today (CT) & NOT to "why so long".

Haiyo! "why so long" u still don't learn meh? TTG is not so stupid to reveal their "tai pai" ("bottom card" = critical evidence) on this blog so that u can carry it to SP.

As for points # 8, 9 & 10, "anti broker" seems to be mocking CT of the following:-
8. CT can be construed as conspiring,
9. such dealing is not appropriate,
10. unless their (CT) identify revealed ..why so secret..shame on you.

Then he/she pretends to direct them to "why so long" by placing (why so long) at the end.

All of us reading are not so stupid lah, "why so long" alias/aka "anti broker".

As regarding your points # 8 to 10, can you please direct them to SP to find out why SP had to speak to the seller (Tan Sri VT) of the CCC land in private by requesting for the other Calvarites to step outside. SP also met up with Ken Yeang (that Freemason architect) alone & the Nam Fatt boss alone. Why ah? Is it "ng kin tak kong" (cannot be done in broad daylight) meh?

To "blind date" who just commented, if u are "why so long" or "anti broker" - buzz off, TTG not so stupid lah. If not, just trust CT that they know what they are doing when they asked "why so long" to email for meeting, just commit it to God in prayer loh.

lang qing said...

dear all...think we're starting to become a bit too paranoid....can't say I blame u all but think we shouldn't be too worried as am sure the TT Group will know how to deal with and handle 'Why So Long' appropriately :)

Anonymous said...

I betul betul beh tahan this why so long? You say, "The facts that have been given have required speculation in order to have relevance. Should there be facts that the TTG have kept in private, might I suggest that it be brought forward for all to see."

You sound like a lawyer but don't think like a lawyer. You say ppl's facts need speculation to understand, so to convince you, they must show you their evidence. Oi, you don't go to court like that. You keep your evidence until needed. "What they kept in private

Like PKR kept the Lingam's tape for a few years and then pop, it appeared this year as evidence. How can you even think of asking them to reveal their secret for all to see. On 2nd thoughts, you may just be one of the pastor's or deacon's kid.

CALVARY TODAY said...

EMAIL FROM WHY SO LONG?

Dear Teh Tarik group/Calvary Today,

Thank you for your offer.

I understand that there is a lot of skepticism with regards to my identity and motive. As such I would like to assure you that I am not a member of the BOD, a full time worker nor am I representing anyone's interest. I trust that you can take me at my word on this for the time being. I too am concerned with the repercussions of this meeting as has been expressed by others whom have posted on the blog. Therefore, kindly help me with the issue in the following paragraph and I will respond accordingly.

I have a concern with the need to sign a document right after seeing the evidence that you have. My concern is that I do not want this to be a precondition to our meeting as I would like to reserve the right to decide on my position after viewing all that there is to be shown. I hope you can oblige. If its not possible, its alright. Neither of us should have to be a part of this meeting and be uncomfortable about it.

Also please help by answering the two questions I posted in the comment box on October 17, 2008 4:33 PM. I think in the name of truth and transparency that the answers will be beneficial to all.

Best Regards,
WSL


CALVARY TODAY’S RESPONSE

Dear WSL

Thank you for responding but we would have been more comfortable if you had given us your name and telephone number. We do not know who you really are or who you represent. You may not even be a Calvarite.

Since you stressed that you wish to reserve your right to decide on your position after viewing our documents, then it would not make sense to even show you at all. We do not have to prove anything to you. It doesn't benefit us or the concerned members to prove anything to you. You have your views, we have ours. Let's leave it at that.

Anyway, the objective of this blog is not to prove anything. It was set up solely to disseminate information to concerned Calvarites and to provide an avenue for them to share their views and suggestions.

As to your two questions, your first question (Why go to the police, IRD or Bank Negara if no concrete evidence is available?) is mischievous, to say the least. You know very well that we have never said that we don't have concrete evidence. You are just merely trying to cast doubts in the readers' minds. This is no different than when the serpent said to Eve in the Garden of Eden "Did God really say, "You must not eat from any tree in the garden?".

Your second question is - You have expressed that the actions above are actions of 'last resort.' If so, how will you determine if such a time has arrived and what exactly needs to take place in order for you to determine when this is?

We, the TT group, have always worked on the basis of "the steps of a good man are ordered by the Lord". When God tells us to go, we go. When He tells to stop, we stop. When the time for a certain action comes, He will tell us. It is not for us to determine the right time, our job is just to obey when He calls.

By the way, since our “meeting’ is already being debated on the blog, this response and your email will be published in the blog to stop further speculation and debates.

God Bless,
Calvary Today

Stay and Persevere said...

To CT,

I too am of the opinion that WSL is trying to cast doubt in the minds of blog readers by posting all those questions. I also believe that the TTG has some relevant evidence which should only be shown and used at the appropriate time. My rationale is that if TTG is lying about this matter, then they are no better than the BOD, which then renders all the discussion on this blog meaningless.

I suggest that the TTG organize another meeting similar to the last KBU meeting soon, and a collection hat should be passed around for the purpose of collecting funds to engage a lawyer. I will willingly contribute towards this fund. This is only fair since the BOD had probably used funds originating from our tithes or offerings to engage professional services.

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