Saturday, November 15, 2008

CIM to be De-Registered by NECF (revised with additional comments 17-11-08)

Calvary International Ministries (CIM), the personal ministry of our Senior Pastor (SP), Rev Prince Guneratnam is to be de-registered by the National Evangelical Christian Fellowship (NECF) Malaysia as it does NOT meet the membership conditions of NECF’s constitution.

CIM was established on 8 September 2002 as a personal ministry of SP. It was and has never been a part of Calvary Church. It is definitely not an extended ministry of Calvary Church and does not come under the covering of our church. Hitherto, it has derived its legitimacy by being registered as a member of NECF.

At the church AGM in March this year, when Sis Liza posed several questions on CIM, SP has vehemently defended his personal ministry and declared that no-one has the right to question this ministry. At the recent EGM, a lawyer was brought in to establish the fact that CIM is a personal ministry and therefore, the RM1.9m that was transferred from the church missions fund to CIM over the last several years, cannot be claimed back by the church despite the fact that members’ approval has not been sought.

After the AGM, the TTG members investigated and discovered that the constitution of NECF does not allow the registration of personal ministries as a member. On 20 May 2008, Bro KC wrote to NECF for answers to several questions among which are to check if NECF is providing spiritual covering for CIM and if CIM is registered with them as personal ministry. Bro KC did not receive any reply from NECF but Bro Hong Meng, following up on Bro KC’s letter, was verbally informed by an official there that they had, all this while, thought that CIM was a part of Calvary Church and on that assumption, NECF had accepted CIM as a member. We wonder what was the basis for that assumption. If it is because of a document or representation given by CIM or Calvary Church at the time of application, then it can be inferred that a misrepresentation had taken place. If no such misrepresentation had been made, then NECF may have been careless in approving CIM's membership in 2003. We doubt that NECF was careless and we believe that they were somehow "misled" or "misinformed". It may be interesting to note that SP was the Chairman of NECF when CIM became a member. As the Chairman, SP should know the NECF membership criteria and the ineligibility of CIM to be a member of NECF.

Check out the July-Aug 2003 NECF newsletter at this website:
http://www.necf.org.my/index.cfm?&menuid=21. This fact of SP's Chairmanship in NECF and the announcement of CIM's membership are published in the newsletter. There is also an interesting article in the newsletter by SP on the moral integrity of the church leaders.

On 21 August 2008, Bro Hong Meng wrote to NECF to find out their plans now that it is an established fact that CIM is not part of Calvary Church. On 9 October 2008, NECF replied that “CIM does not meet the membership conditions of our (NECF) constitution and our (NECF) membership roll will be rectified accordingly”. We believe the de-registration of CIM as a member of NECF is in the due process or already done. Here, we must salute NECF for their “bravery” to take such affirmative steps to put things right.

The question that springs to mind now is what will likely happen to CIM? We are fearful that the balance money of almost RM1 million in CIM might be swiftly spent or taken out by SP. We are not so concerned with the RM400,000 left in CARED as the Board of Deacons, at the EGM, has stated that CARED and presumably, the money remaining therein, will become an extended ministry of the church. There were no plans to transfer CIM to church as an extended ministry. We understood then that SP had objected to this. In fact, when another member (the simple housewife) appealed to SP at the EGM to give all the balance RM1 million to the CCC building fund, SP had stood his ground and would not release the money.

Now, with this change in circumstances and if the money is still in CIM, it is quite likely that SP will have no choice but to move CIM to church as an extended ministry. This is the only way, CIM can be legitimate. It is the only way for CIM to maintain a bank account to hold its funds. It is the only way for CIM to continue as SP’s channel to raise money to fund his extensive traveling to attend seminars and conferences around the world. (In church circles, for preaching invitations, usually, the host church pays for the travel costs and usually, with love offering thrown in as well). It is the only way, CIM can be deemed as a religious organization to avoid becoming taxable as otherwise, all offerings and gifts received by CIM will become taxable.

DO NOT BE SURPRISED if this option of becoming an extended ministry of the church is taken by SP because we see it as the ONLY OPTION available to him. In plain language, he has NO CHOICE.

Of course, even after it is moved to church as an extended ministry, several questions still remain to be answered, which are:

1. The balance RM1 million in CIM may be liable to tax as it was accumulated during the period when it was “misrepresented” as a Christian organization under NECF. In fact, the entire RM1.9 million which was transferred from church to CIM may be taxable. It will be interesting if the taxman get wind of this.

2. What were the documents given to the banks for the opening of the bank accounts of CIM and CARED? If they were NECF membership documents and now that CIM is de-registered, will the balance money in the banks be frozen? If the banks return the money, who will the bank return the money to?

3. If misrepresentation has been made to NECF which resulted in CIM being accepted as a member, can criminal proceedings be instituted against the perpetrator? This is because, besides Calvary Church, some individuals and other churches may have given gifts to CIM in the belief that it is a legitimate Christian organisation under the umbrella of NECF.

Whatever unfolds over the next few days or weeks, we hope our dear SP and the Board of Deacons are well prepared to deal with the issues which may arise. Things seem to be heating up. Just to let you know, 2 Calvarites have boldly stepped forward and have informed us, in no uncertain terms, that they are prepared and ready to go to the authorities. All they are waiting for is our signal. Unbeknown to them, that has put a very heavy burden on the TTG “committee”. We are prayerfully, waiting on the Lord. Let’s all pray that it does not come to that.

God Bless.

557 comments:

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shall we sue the board of decon? said...

Dear Board of deacons

the 'tortoisepw' said it well, you are to protect the body of christ, so week after week, day after day, 9 month after AGM, what have you done? still no reply of my email from you..

have you learned something from the 2 articles published in beritacalvary. one for pastor on finance, one for church board on church administration. Are you aware the pastor not suppose to interfere in finance and adminstration? Are you aware that the board are the one who decide on the compesation package? Are you aware that all these have to be presented to the members?
Are you that you have committed wrong? Are you aware that, we the members very angry with you guys? Are you aware that some one may sue you guys for wrongful adminstration power play?

Are You Aware? said...

Are you aware that the affairs of Calvary Church is governed by the Constitution of Calvary Church and not opinions, however logical and reasonable, of some articles?

Not sure said...

Dear " Are You Aware?"
"Are you aware that the affairs of Calvary Church is governed by the Constitution of Calvary Church and not opinions, however logical and reasonable, of some articles?"

Not sure, but would you elaborate? Thank you.

Are You Aware? said...

The articles merely gives opinion by well-meaning Christians of how a church should be governed. They are NOT Gospel/Scriptural Truths. Each local church is governed by her own guidelines/understanding. In Calvary Church's case, we have formalised them into the Constitution. In other words, what for example, is the role of the pastor, deacons, committees, etc... is to be found in our Constitution and NOT what someone else writes/opined in articles.

Are You Aware? said...

And that's why we need to change our Constitution because it gives too much power to one man. But until then, it is what the church is governed by. By the way, looks like what the BOD says it intends to do (i.e. review the Constitution) appears to be just talk.

can sue la... said...

If the church affirs is governed by the constitution and yet, CIM was governed very long ago by the same constitution, why then had CIM became a personal ministry? a personal entity? with its own personal right? Then what are you doing as a board? can I said that the board had collaborated and abetted with the president of CIM? Why then NECF got to ractify the membership roll? What would be the possible offence the board had committed? abetting? manipulation? abuse of power? ignorant? or simply not qualified?

BOD hide yourself again inside the shell of the tortoise..

Not sure said...

Thank you "Are You Aware?"

But "can sue la", 1 Cor 6:1-8 tells us not to sue. I read some of us had written to AG Council. What else can we do? Really frustrated. Thought of leaving CC.

AG Council, are you there?

maybe can sue said...

Not true, not true Bod, isnt the duty and pastor role is written in the staff manual instead of in the constitution..half truth? pastor retirement is age 60, also in the manual, but BOD lied to us and said no retirement age written in the constitution..one more half truth by Mr BOD! So, BOD, dont hide under the constitution and manipulate with your power and influence, go hide under your pillow..

Stay AND fight! said...

Dear Not Sure,

Don't leave the church. Stay and fight this battle! If everybody from TTG & supporters leaves, very easy for SP to remain in his position - this is what he wants. From the pulpit he was telling those who oppose him to go to another church or to jump in the lake!

Stay and fight the good fight of faith until we wrestle Calvary back from the hands of THE dictator!

10000 or 3000 said...

our pastor used to preach and comment that calvary church membership is based on conversion- but not transfer membership. No wonder in the NST recently, it was announced , calvary had 10000 members. Is it convert or transfer? transfer from which church or where?

How come 10000, when in the AGM, it was mentioned 3000, especially the tortoise presentation done by Mr PW? True or not true 10000? BOD give you one last chance to explain and clarify!

WALK THE TALK gunaRAT said...

HM says
"NECF had already answered that their membership roll would be rectified acordingly. I take that to mean that CIM would be excluded from membership"

Does that mean we can ASSuME that all is hunky dory? Is that's why we are so jubilant and sanguine about the outcome of TTG that we can jump the gun and talk about post model CC.

Don't be lulled into INACTION!!!!

We don't have time. Already us "TROUBLEMAKERS" are going to be turfed out!!! Those that are identified as TTG members (unless we turncoat or SP can 'yoke' us back)

WALK THE TALK gunaRAT said said...

WALK THE TALK gunaRAT said

We have hits from the US recently especially from Baton Rouge Louisiana (SP Larry Stockstill of Bethany World Prayer Center?) the US organizers of "Shake the Nations" October 8, 2008 - Friday, October 10, 2008
2008 International Church Growth and Cell Conference
Baton Rouge, Louisiana.

How they disburse the fee to Prince Guneratnam CIM will be of interest to the IRS IRS IRS since CIM is not a bona fide NECF member. So SP's US brethren needs to be careful for they MAYBE helping PG tax-evasion and laundering money.

WALK THE TALK gunaRAT said...

BOD....So this is also a warning to YOU not to aid and abet and cover up for SP this whole NECF membership fiasco and other incrimminating or CBT revelations that will surface as sure as the sun will rise after the darkest night.

Your friends, family members and colleagues are worried for you that you will also be charged for all the wrongdoings (whether rightfully or wrongly) as a result of your LOYALTY to SP. Ask yourself will SP be loyal to you tillk trhe end?
Personally I'm appealing to you, out of love and family self- interest (eventhough you and I may disagree) to make the wise choice .

small IS BEAUTIFULL said...

To-date we have enjoyed freedom in our religious worship without much encumberances. We have over 400 AOG churches and many more free evangelical churches.

Church Leaders do we want to jeopardise our standing in this nation of ours if we do not stop this nonsense of empire church building (mega church headed by a singular SP) especially when its head is tainted!!!

Regarding CC internal problems, we will have IRB, BN, Police and perhaps our nation ISA (depending on what was shared at 'Shake the Nations' conference by the speakers knowing that some of the them at the conference have non-tolerance against other religions) knocking at our church doors.

Don't blame TTG its the BOD and SP's actions that have brought us to this state.

Two (2) Half Truths = one full LIE said...

OLDIE said "We are mature Christians and know our Scriptures so there is no need to keep on quoting Scriptures hoping to defuse us."

This is just a gentle reminder to Anon 2:25, Vijay, Gerard, Why So Long etc to keep your sermons or witnessing to another blogspot or just like VJ cited
"Sylvia D. Pearce
http://www.theliberatingsecret.org/"

But please don't quote everything verbatim or spread inane and not relevasnt to this post comments for it will then remind us that you are just "SPAMMING",


THIS COMMENT IS TO PRE-EMPT any attempt by SP supporters or 'others' to bury or defuse us from contributing important material!!!


What we need are "Cynthia Coopers" of CC and commentators like Ah Lian, ex paid staff, ex-leaders etc. to proivde us with important documentary stuffs. OK

Birth Date of CC - Full truth said...

http://www.ag.org.my/history.htm

Just browsed above A/G M got it right

"......January 1961 saw the birth of Calvary Church... "

patrick said...

good to hear some brave ones has written to AOG Council. Beside AOG, i encourage you all to write to BOD to find back their 2 biji (sorry for being crude)and remove SP or BOD resign immediately. don't use anonymous names in your email, no credibility. Be bold, write in your own name. Their email address are here:

Patrick Wong (patrickwongsf@gmail.com)
Philip Tan (philippk.tan@gmail.com)
Stephen Liu (stephen@ridpest.com)
Bernadette (bernfoo@gmail.com)
Dr Lum Siew Heng (lumsiewheng@yahoo.com.sg)
Edward Rajasingam (edwardr_06@hotmail.com)
Han(hanjk.cc@gmail.com)
SP Prince (gprince@calvary.org.my)

Recently, i sent the CT website & posting to AOG USA, Dag Heward, Dr Cho and all SP's kakis.

Bamboo Conspiracy said...

THE AUTHORITY OF THE BELIEVER

Hi Patrick

I agree with you. All Calvarities who stand on the side of Truth, Transparency and Governance or concerned for their church must ACT. Scripture does not teach that we fold our arms and just wait on God. There is a time for action first than waiting on God. This is what I discerned during my morning devotion today. The principle of acting in faith is illustrated in Ex 14:15-16.

AND the Lord said unto Moses
“Wherefore criest thou unto me” . . . stretch out thine hand over the sea, and divide it.” Speak out the word of faith.

“Why do you ask Me to do it? Do it yourself,”

God was saying, in reality, to Moses to act. “Stretch” out your rod and divide the sea.”

We can learn an important principle here.

Moses had said to God, “You do it”; but God answered Moses, “No, you do it.”

A glance through the Bible or Christian biography illustrates multiplies instances of this: we need to be bold enough to do whatever we can do/act and trust God will do the things we cannot do.

Do not cry out for what you already have, but use it, use it. Exercise the authority of God.

I had spoken to the Assemblies of God Malaysia (AOG) a month ago and they informed that they do not get involved with the internal matters of the church.

However, I received a positive response when I called again yesterday. They informed that if a member of a church, which is registered with the AOG, has grievances with the leadership of the church, they can write in providing the following particulars.
1.Name of Church
2.The person/persons the member has grievance with
3.The nature of the grievance
4.How long the member has been grieved
5.Was there any immoral or illegal conduct?

When I inquired what assurance I have that the AOG will reply. The reply was the AOG has a committee that looks into such grievances and will reply if appropriate.

It appears it is now up to you folks in Calvary Church to take the next course of action because being a non-member of Calvary Church, I have no legal standing on the matter.

My observation is, unless we continue to press hard on the National Christian Organisations in Malaysia, they will take the easy way out and remain silent. However, if members continuously bombard them with their grievance, I hope someone will take notice and do the right thing out of moral and spiritual obligation.

Their contact information is provided below.
The Assemblies of God of Malaysia
No. 95, Jalan Gasing, 46000 Petaling Jaya, Selangor Darul Ehsan, Malaysia.
P.O. Box 499, Jalan Sultan, 46760 Petaling Jaya, Selangor Darul Ehsan, Malaysia.
General Line : 603 - 7956 5195 / 603 - 7956 5205
Fax Number : 603 - 7955 0471
http://www.ag.org.my/h-missions.htm

ALL THE BEST

Vijay

Not coming back to calvary said...

Hey, we are desperate, are we? I am really! I thought cc, BOD, "the prince" can resolve all these ugliness before dec, 2008.

Why? you know,, quite a big number of calvarites's young adult were overseas--studying, and usually dec would be time they come back, and it really sadden my heart to see that our children cannot have the same 'love' for the church anymore because of the painful state of their parents having to endure this saga.

Let me just highlight to You, BOD and pastors, all these young undergraduates will eventually leave calvary church if you dont know how to take care of them, they got many friends attending other churches, if calvary is having all these unscriptural/ mess, do you think they will choose to come back eventually? For your info, my child already decided not to...

There are a number of good/mega/vibrant church out there,
DUMC, SIB, RENEWAL LUTHERAN CHURCH/EAGLE POINT/FGA....

Ah Heng said...

I have noticed someone in Baton Rouge is monitoring this blog.

Could it be SP Larry Stockstill of Bethany World Prayer Center, the US organizers of "Shake the Nations" October 8, 2008, October 10, 2008, 2008 International Church Growth and Cell Conference
Baton Rouge, Louisiana.

Pastor Larry, if you are still reading this blog, be warn of this man, the SP of CC in Kuala Lumpur.

Don't sit back. Please help us at CC. I don't know how but we need help urgently as our local Christian bodies are not moving, and our deacons are still half sleeping and murmuring their mantra "let God be God".

Help, help, fellow brethren out there!

P.LING said...

To: Are you aware and BOD and Associate pastors

If you were to say that Calvary church is governed by the church constitution, the first action the BOD should have taken would be to take disciplinary action on " the prince" for his spiritual misconduct and allege abuse of scripture and staff and documents. YOU, BOD are destroying "the prince' integrity and future because of your protectiveness on him, please help 'the prince', dont let him continue to BACK-SLIDE, he is back-sliding, he is hardened, he cannot turn back if BOD not counselling him: BOD. YOU DONT NEED ALL THESE:

1. dont need paper evidence, we, the church goer more than happy to testify.
2. we, the churchgoer and visitor and regular worshipper and member more than willing to testify because some visitor and regular goer also got the cds and records ourselves.
3. EGM/AGM was also the evidence itself, high-handed and manipulative conduct in chairirng the meeting. The observer also more than willing to testify.
4. The bank transaction which cannot be erased also can be an evidence. Unless 'the prince' can influence the bank and erased all the banking records in bank negara and banks.
5. the ex-deacon and some current deacon also can testify( i know of more than one deacons can testify--a few not agreeable with "the prince") They are waiting for the right moment. Beware "the prince", your deacons are not really supporting you...only 1 or 2 supporting you!

Beware the staff in calvary also not supporting and respecting the pastors and BOD. Go witch-hunt any staffs and pastors who read the blog, God also hunting the BOD AND PASTOR for their abuses.

Help! Help! said...

To those in America and you are reading this blog, please help us.

We are in need of your help in our church situation.

PLEASE HELP US!!!!

de twenty something said...

Dear P.Ling

Very true, not only de " the prince" back-sliding, I think the BOD also back-sliding.

Dare not to stand up for truth as a christian under any circumstances, are they still chritian? must well call themselves, a religious practitioner instead of calling themselves chritian from calvary church...sigh

Hello, chritian from calvary church should be very 'gang-ho', because our pastors used to say calvarites always got bible in their hands, so is it a bible or is it a bible stories? BOD, please help us as calvarites to lift up our heads again when our friends ask us which church, we can proudly tell them again, its calvary church, right now, very ashame to tell our friends anymore..

cominghomesoon--fr abroad said...

I am coming home soon, uncle and aunty; how is d going? I hope to be back to church n meet up all my friends, all de aunties n uncles who saw me growing up.. i missed them heaps..

But, i heard and read in d blog, church very messy? why? are u telling me, nothing can be done? really sad..sob! sob! r d church leaders doing anything on our Senior pastor since he is the root-caused?

uneasy said...

P.Ling

I came to know that SP hastly brought P. Guynes for the EGM Charimanship and also hastly gave USD10k to him, now after two months, sp told BOD to rectify it!! Of course,our very obedient BOD will just act accordingly like a robot(unlike ASIMO who can even think better!) and should this be true or not in the public it will be another sort of accusations. No matter how, it still makes me very uneasy! There is no transparency at all in our church governance. It is very much like the recent revelations of the state-owned Pempena SB types of operations! Sorry to have side track the CIM issues. Maybe we just forget about this point then as we will become more sinful talking about it. Anyway still feel very uneasy!!Uneasy..

the ex-little waitress n cleaner for sp n wife n son said...

P.Ling
I shared your sentiment, i dont mind witnessing..you know ahh " the prince" really abuse le..i remember, as a little girl, when his son got married in d church, having d wedding dinner in d sanctuary, i was one of them who was asked to become a waitress for free, i was only ard 12 or 13, i never carry all those restaurant type of giant plate before, real giant for my size and age, somemore d dishes also very hot, i have to carry to serve to the table for the guest, i tell you, i almost dropped d plate at one point, come to think of it, how embarass it can be if that happened, it may be a stigma to my entire lives causing such embarassment having drop the plate.

next, on one occassion, when at d youth camp sometime back, also was asked to go and clean senior pastor and his wife hotel room, they cannot allow the hotel cleaner to clean apparently, so a few of us got to clean for them. really abusive he n wife le. i felt so stupid now.

Index Finger said...

Congrats Anon 2:25. I've long tried to campaign for all that you have said.

There is a core group of TTG 'supporters' who go too far in their comments against the church, further even than the TTG are comfortable with. People speaking out against them (Desmond, myself, Anon 2:25) are automatically labelled 'SP supporters' and insulted.

Anon 2:25, keep up the good work, and never let their words wound your soul. Always be forgiving and gracious.

A mere Christian
Index Finger

Winslow said...

Dear hurt and sometimes discouraged Calvarites,

I know many Calvarites are hurting and even discouraged by the ongoing CC saga. Some may even be contemplating leaving our church for good. My sincere appeal to you is, please STAY ON.

I believe our Omniscience God has called us to CC FOR SUCH A TIME AS THIS. When I first came to CC when I was still a young varsity undergraduate in 1982, little did I know that God has CALLED ME FOR SUCH A TIME AS THIS. And having tasted of His goodness and grace in CC and the privilege of serving Him fulltime in Calvaryland for over 5 years, I am convicted and persuaded to stay put in our beloved church for there’s still some unfinished business, God’s work of cleansing and restoration, in CC.

I want to be part of it. I know there’s a price to be paid, but I’m willing to because Christ has paid the ultimate price to redeem me FOR SUCH A TIME AS THIS.
I subscribe wholeheartedly to the cause of TTG because it’s the RIGHT thing to pursue for I can’t sit back and pretend nothing is happening, and worst still, know something not right is happening and yet do nothing about it.

So my sincere appeal to hurting and discouraged Calvarites who are contemplating leaving our church, please stay on for we will surely see the fullness of God’s glory restored in CC, and in His time, yes in His time, He will make all things BEAUTIFUL again. Amen.

Having said this, I appeal to ex-Calvarites who have since left our church for good, please do not misunderstand me. God may have called you out of CC to another church where you are now settled down, for ANOTHER TIME SUCH AS THIS, for who knows, God may have led you there to fight for TTG or any other cause of God if that ever occurs in your new-found church, and God forbids.

Back to my fellow Calvarites, if in the process of staying on in CC, you experience spiritual dryness for lack of good spiritual food from the pulpit, by all means refresh yourself with some good and hearty spiritual manna found elsewhere once in a while, which my wife and I do it too. But please don’t leave CC for she needs you at this critical hour of need, for you have been called to CC FOR SUCH A TIME AS THIS.

As for me, I will definitely stay put to soldier on for the Lord for he has called me to CC FOR SUCH A TIME AS THIS. How about you, my fellow Calvarites?

God bless,
Winslow

Being abused said...

Index finger or Ms Pam Or Yoke Yee....dont hide, check your id, found who u r...there is no malicious, wow, u ppl collaborate with anon.2.25, he already talked to winslow, both also published their comments here, saying dat they had talked, they r for u or for TTG? wow, u got spy to dupe inncocent blogger to send email to anon.2.25..
cc got thieve as some commented, ct also got thieve fr cc..scary..but despite dat, me, no let go of any chance to blog, i want to tell many things dat still in me..haha..slowly..i will still expose more of calvary SP, wife,son n daughter abuses..tune in yah..

Wondering said...

Dear The Ex-Little Waitress and Cleaner for SP and his wife and Son,

Oh my goodness. How could they possibly do that to a young girl or any one for that matter. How can they do that to the church members or their children. Are we their slaves???

Asking her to clean up their hotel room???Why???

Madam Tan said...

Dear cominghomesoon-fr abroad

Aunty here feel sorry for you young people, sadly, we heard nothing from the church; instead our pastor and BOD still very proud and arrogant, preached twisted messages and play all abusive power. Looks like you cannot have good time in this church! I am very sad too like you..sob!sob!

Nevermind, when you come back, we can take you to visit some other church, visit only la, but still stay put in calvary to pray and help if you can..ok?

Our BOD claimed that the church got constitution to govern the church policy, but i think they only governed the worshipper for more money and monetary abuses for our sp n wife n son n daughter, now they move on to grandchildren, something like that from what I understand from friends and the blog and the leaders.

Being abused no.100+ said...

i am afraid, now that index finger appeared to come back, no sidetrack fellow bloggers, beware, when anon 2.25 said he deleted his gmail, he may not! he maybe collaborating with index finger,wsl.etc cannot follow all these nonsense..i am only interested in dealing with TTG.

one more abuse reported : one ex-deacon's son, same origin as SP color, was asked to be van driver for the church after graduting as a bible school student, he no more in calvary church now, some where in the world, serve in other church. the father was so sad to see that the son was abused. more stories to come..

Simpleman said...

Dear "being abused",

On anon.2.25's offer to get bloggers to email him, anon 2.25 has withdrawn the "offer" as he realised it was a mistake. Please be fair to anon 2.25. Verify your facts before commenting. We need to be fair, that's all I request.

God bless.

Ah Lian said...

Dear Being abused no.100,

Don't be paranoid with others. Pursue TTG if you must, but give others the benefit of the doubt. I'm all for TTG, so don't get me wrong.

Anon 2.25 said...

Dear friends,

The offer to dialogue off-list is a MAMMOTH error of judgment on my part. I felt so ashamed. Rest assured that the Gmail account has been deleted. No one wrote before it was deleted. As a result of my stupidity, I emailed Brother Winslow that I have grounded myself from blogging for at least 48 hours. This will be my only post (yes, it does mean that I broke my silence, but only to put this unfortunate matter to rest).
Again, I am deeply sorry.

Index Finger said...

Being abused: Yes, I'm back. I will not write as much as I used to, because I'm quite busy, but I will always write here in order to repeat the call for less malicious, hate-filled comments on this blog. Also, I have respected your privacy, so please respect mine and don't trace me. I am none of the above, so don't run around smearing Ms. Pam and Yoke Yee just because you think they are the Index Fingers.

By the way, I see a clear distinction between the TTG and TTG supporters. As far as I'm concerned, TTG refers to the core group led by Siew Chyuan and Hong Meng who do all the legwork, whereas 'TTG supporters' like myself are the Calvarites who are openly supporting the TTG's call for truth and accountability.

As far as I can see, TTG itself is NOT GUILTY of writing malicious posts. It is a few of the TTG Supporters on this forum who tend to cross the boundary when it comes to their comments. It is also my observation that the TTG Supps are more vocal and vociferous, while the TTG tend to be more prayerful and cautious.

I wish everyone was just like the TTG.

A mere Christian,
Index Finger

LIE DETECTOR said...

If the comments are seemingly hate-filled, you must ask, "What is the root cause of all this bitterness & unhappiness?" Wouldn't anyone be bitter & angry when the dirt is exposed, and Calvary church-goers discover that SP, SAP & BOD HAVE BEEN LIVING A LIE for so many years and that they have been spiritually abusing the sheep of Calvary?

So please don't pretend, lah, that you are on TTG's side by "buttering them up" with flattery just so they will think you are also on their side!

Mr Sea said...

Good guessed, and you are absolutely silly -index finger. TTG and TTG supports all the same, big huge group, since you like to guess, must well be honest with you, but how many of us? big big number--all TTg supporters, eg. NECF, AG, WORLD AOG, ALL OTHER DENOMINATIONS, ALL SMALL N BIG CHURCHES AND CALVARITES, POLICE, LAWYER, BANKER, VARIOUS AUTHORITES; you are very confused, know nothing abt truth, transparency and governance, only good at 1 word-- malicios. Who is the root caused of the whole saga? your dear sp. by all means go busy support him, shame on you.

yes, sp n wife n daughter n son, abusive spiritually and physically, bullied the little girl, to clean his hotel room, i read one comment earlier. I appeal to AG, the governing body of AG churches, and also our BOD, please investigate the abuse!

LIE DETECTOR said...

My previous comment is addressed to Index Finger....

'child slavery' said...

Boy! The GuneRATnam name sure is beginning to stink!

The list of their sins now includes 'child slavery'. Pretty soon he and his family won't be able to hold up their heads in church. If they have any decency left in them, they would repent before the congregation, bringing back the money, and step down.

They and the deacons (but 1) and most of the pastors seem to be testing God's patience.

is calvarychurch money collector? said...

Sadly, as a mother, when I read about the ex-little waitress and cleaner for sp n wife n son, it hurts. Really to come to this extend of knowledge, these things also the sp family can do.

I better check with my little daughter again, how much more abuse can happen to these little innocent kids. Parents talk to your children and begin to ask probing question, how had they been treated.

Before i forgot, one boy, 5 yrs old, had been reprimanded by one CW teacher, " make sure you tell your daddy to give you money for mission offering and tithes,( 2 offering altogether) next week, since you forgotten this week.

so, little boy, straight talk to daddy, what to do, they dont know how to tell lies...

is calvarychurch money collector? said...

typo error * mission offering n love offering, not tithes.

Index Finger said...

Mr. Sea: No, I don't think so. TTG themselves are the people investigating the accounts, making

decisions, planning what to do next. TTG Supporters, like myself, are the people supporting their cause, but who are not privy to the TTG Committee's planning and decisions. An example: If I'm a member of Y Political Party, I'm a Y-Member. If I support Y Political Party, I'm a Y-SUpporter. The difference is even more pronounced if I'm underaged; I will be an underage supporter of Y Political Party. See?

Mr. Sea, the relevance of this distinction is that what the TTG Supporters on this blog say are not

what the TTG is saying, and vice versa. Thus, when I say that some TTG Supporters are making hateful

remarks, I am not saying that the TTG is making hateful remarks. THis distinction is lost on many TTG

Supporters.

Lie Detector: Ah. But therein lies all the difference. SP is a sinner, and the root cause of all this

bitterness. I AGREE. However, if I spread hateful remarks I cannot trace back my words to SP and cry

"He's the one who made me do it!" Adam tried that, as you know. "It's not my fault. I ate because she

gave it to me." Isn't that similar to "It's not my fault. I'm bitter/hateful because SP made me so."

It's a short step from there to "I murdered him because he made me so bitter by being hateful to me.

The root cause is his hate." At the end, we are all accountable for our own actions.

Child Slavery: I feel so sorry for Jamie Guneratnam. Though only a few years old, Jamie and the entire family is cursed a "GuneRAT" by other people. She will be saddled by the stigma of her name due to SP's actions. I hope she will not feel prejudice and stigma as she grows up, though I think she will.

What I am saying is that we should refrain from writing hateful things about SP and his family. We

should instead approach him with grace, mercy and forgiveness in our hearts. Every single religion

preaches about justice; Christianity emphasises mercy and forgiveness. This is what sets us apart from

the rest of the world. We should be more merciful, gracious and forgiving.

A mere Christian,
Index Finger

NeNe said...

Dear Index Finger,

Let's not bring in the little girl. She's not the issue at all. By the way, correct me if I'm wrong, I don't read of anyone cursing the Gunerat.

Yes, you're right to point out in essence that "we should not sin while pointing out the sins (shortcomings) of others, in this case, SP.

We should always guard ourselves from falling into the pits of life that others have already fallen into. Maybe that's the difficult part for TTG supporters. We should pray for one another, more so for SP too.

GenerationNext said...

Dear blogger

Did you see the rotation? the few names that appeared in CT (eg.index finger) in actual sense, it is the same one person with different names...

We shall focus again on transparency, truth, governance. I read some few comments today and feeling very disturb and hurt. I would like to humbly request any associate pastor/assistant pastor/cell group leader and board of deacon, urgently do some investigation and checking on the conduct of sp family. It is alarming to hear that little girl were asked to become little waitress and little cleaner. I am afraid some thing worse than these could happen if left unchecked..

CIM is such a thorn in the flesh, BOD, the general consensus from here as I gauged is, the CIM must be disssolved. SP and wife must resign.

I believe our BOD can easily resolve this if they know the serious implication of the future in calvary. If issues not handle well, looks like the youth and the younger one can also learn from sp and family to tell lies without punishment.

For the sake of our future, please, may I appeal to all, help our SP and wife to resign. Can AG help to investigate too?

LIE DETECTOR said...

Ah, Index Finger..
please don't twist and turn & misuse that scripture...it was SP who lied and put the blame on BOD for giving him THE MONEY...How come you dare not talk to SP about this INSTEAD OF TRYING TO LAY A GUILT TRIP ON US? As SP he has set a bad example for his flock & we are just reacting to the evil that he has done1 ARE WE NOT ALLOWED TO LAY BARE OUR SOULS, TO EXPRESS OUR HURTS AND ANGER?

And why on earth did you bring up Jamie Guneratnam's name? To lay another guilt trip on us? It's sad, but if she suffers [because she is related to that name], she is suffering for the sins of her 'once-anointed and godly' [but now lying and cheating] grandfather! SP should have thought of that before he started putting his thieving hand into the treasury bag! He should know that his sin shall find him out! After all, he's been preaching it for 42 years! Moreover, the scriptures did say, in Jeremiah, that the sins of the fathers have set the children's teeth on edge!

So why do you blame us when SP is just reaping what he has sown? You think you are so godly & righteous, meh? Then YOU go & talk some sense into SP & SAP & convince them to return the money which they have stolen, lah! In the meantime STOP pointing your accusing index finger at us!!!

Air Pollution said...

dear index finger,

Would you like to consider writing to AG Council???
Please do !!!!!!!
If AG Council comes in to investigate, it will definitely clear SP's name

I understand from the comments, there are people who wrote in.
It will be good if more people write to AG Council to tell them the urgency in CC.

Do sacrifice a few minutes and pen the letter to AG council and check on CC.

Maybe that will clear the air.
At the moment the air is very, very polluted

Big Thumb said...

Index Finger….
I think u are inconsistent in yr comments and standing and I hv every reason to doubt yr true intention of posting in this blog. For instance, you said this in one of yr comments today:

“TTG Supporters, like myself, are the people supporting their cause, but who are not privy to the TTG Committee's planning and decisions.”

So you are proclaiming tat u are a TTG Supporter eh? But just hv a look at your earlier comments in previous articles:

------------------------------------------
“I do not claim to be an SP supporter or even a TTC member; I am but a mere Calvarite, a mere Christian, who is speaking out against the angry hatred running wild on this forum.”

“Your words "my trust in the saga at CC is not in man (for man will always fail us) but in God" are exactly what I meant when I said that I am neither an SP supporter nor a TTG supporter. Perhaps it would be better to label ourselves 'God Supporters'.”

“You are absolutely right. I am FOR God. If SP is the one who is doing wrong, I will be AGAINST him. If (God forbid!) TTG is the ones who are doing wrong, then I will be AGAINST them. Get my point?”

---------------------------------------

So, my point is, that one minute, u are saying one thing and another minute u are saying another. Basically, why u are angry that there are negative comments made by TTG Supporters against SP is because YOU think that SP may be totally innocent, even after reading all the evidences and after seeing how he has handled this situation over the mths.


As for Desmond (I’m not sure y u keep bringing his name up? Maybe u and him are the same person), he obviously thinks that it is ok for SP to take church money for his personal use. This was one of Desmond’s comments in another article:

“so people who work in church including the pastors DON'T work hard? is that what you are insinuating? so only people who work outside can enjoy lots of money and luxurious things is it? church leaders cannot? Sorry, I disagree. I think that's a slightly primitive sort of assumption though, don't you think?”

U expect us to listen to people like yrself or Desmond? Unless u go do what anon2.25 did, ie. call up one of the TTG members, Bro Winslow perhaps..we will choose NOT to listen to any of your self righteous comments. If you’re TRULY a TTG supporter, how come I don’t see u commenting on the wrong things that SP has done? Simple. It’s because you don’t think that it is wrong for him to do such things. You’ve been exposed.

BIG FOOT said...

Dear index finger

What 'air pollution' mentioned may be right.

Let's clear the air, write to AG Council. Maybe the BOD should print the posting on 'CIM to be deregistered by NECF' and write to AG Council.

Better still if we can have all the associate pastors to write to AG Council and ask AG exco to investigate.

Why BOD and all APs keeping quiet.

BOD and ALL Associate PASTORS should write to AG to clear the air and most importantly clear SP image.

I strongly suggest BOD and ASSOCIATE PASTORS to carry out this important task

Grace, Mercy, Forgiveness said...

Nene: I assume you're talking about Jamie. I consider the terms "GuneRATnam" and "GuneRATs" (Caps not mine) pretty offensive and a curse on their family name, as it is obviously in reference to the rodent. I've had my family name cursed before, and I can tell you it's not a very good memory to be carrying around. I am still scarred by it.

GenerationNext: No, I'm afraid I don't see the rotation. Anon 2:25 is most definitely not I. We think and write differently. I'm my own man, thank you very much!

LieDetector: "The fathers eat sour grapes, the children's teeth are set on edge." Yes, I know that one. Try Ezekiel 18:1-31. I found it while googling "Generational Curse" in response to GenerationNext. No, I don't intend to lay a guilt trip. I intend to ask people to stop and think about laying curses on peoples' family names, such as "GuneRAT".As for the Index Finger business, okay, maybe I'll change that name. Wasn't a good choice, apparently.

Air Pollution: No, I will not write to the AG Council. I will not jump the gun, and urge you not to do so either. The TTG are the ones handling the investigation; they shall decide.

Big Thumb: Well, thanks for reminding me. We're all God Supporters, you're absolutely right. And since you're reading my previous comments, I'm sure you read the bits where I say I know the SP is wrong, too.

As for Desmond, I mentioned him as he is the first I know to speak up against the hate remarks on this forum. I hold him in high regard. I shall also mention others who I think also feel bad about the remarks in here:

Dr. Vijay Paramsothy
Anon 2:25
Bro Winslow
Bro Hong Meng (in a CT post, he asked us to lay off the family in our remarks... most took his advice; some didn't)

Formerly the Index Finger,
Wanna change my name

Grace, Mercy, Forgiveness said...

P.S. Lie Detector, the page is

http://www.wonderful1.com/The_Generational_Curse.html

and I was responding to Nene, not GenerationNext. Sorry GenNext!

P.P.S. No, we should not react to evil with evil. We should not fight fire with fire, but we should act with grace and mercy. That's being Christianlike.

Formerly Index Finger,
Wanna change...

Big Thumb said...

Index Finger / Grace,Mercy,Forgiveness or whatever name u call yrself...we do not believe u one bit nor do we care to listen to what u have to say. You are being inconsistent, telling half truths, being self righteous and is a fraud. And what is it abt SP that you think is wrong? Do u agree then he is a liar, an ungodly man and an embarassment to the Christian society?

calvarite '70's said...

Grace, Mercy, Forgiveness (GMF)

You mentioned :
The TTG are the ones handling the investigation; they shall decide.

Why only TTG standing for Truth Transparency and Good Governance?

Are you not standing for it too????

Why let TTG bear the burden???
Are you not a Calvarite??????
You got a fantastic name, live up to the name.

Do something and have mercy on the Calvarites.
Get SP to ask for forgiveness from the Calvarites.
God will indeed grant the amazing grace

That's what I call :
GRACE, MERCY, FORGIVENESS

teh tarik kaki--u noe,I noe said...

Dear TTG and concerned calvarites

Today is friday, weekend again..those people will occupy these place every other few minutes again, you know ,I Know la..

So, wise up Ok! dont need to tooth to tooth with them, bless them and let them have fun, we will carry on with our mission, Ok? thank you very much, I love teh tarik and all my kaki teh tarik, amen. We will focus on TTG+TTG+TTG. God is good all the time, all the time God is good. May God bless our friends who enjoy participating in this comment column..Cheers..and ciao

whatajoke said...

Dear ex-little waitress/cleaner,

You poor thing!Nevermind, God sees your heart and He will bless you for your obedience, even if it was to those slave drivers.

Seriously ppl, do you know tat SP and his family sees us members as 2nd class citizens compared to them? Their motto (and this is said by SP not me) is...'the sheep will die for us first'.Imagine something like that coming out of a mouth of a supposed man of God.tell u what, SP...we will never die for u and your family.

The New Beginning Has Come said...

Dear all,

Lets continue to pray and allow God to move in accordance to his timing and way.

Lets not speak or utter words that others, whether they are Calvarites, ex-Calvarites, Christians, non-Christians or friends, will judge us as equally bad, evil or un-Christianlike.

But we must however not stop to stand up for the truth, transparency and good governance, and also for the youth of our church.

The New Beginning Has Come said...

....HIS timing and ....

liza Low said...

SANCTUARY TURNED INTO A WEDDING BANQUET HALL!

Having read about the ‘child slave’ I mentioned this to my daughter’s visiting
Church friends, just hours ago, and most unexpectedly, he ( now, a young professional) told me he was also asked to be a ‘waiter’ at the function but he managed to ‘escape’. What I gathered, the Royal Rangers & Missionettes were recruited to serve at Jim’s ( Prince Guneratnam Jr.) wedding Banquet.

I’d thought what else could be worst than what have already been exposed on all the abuses under the Office of Senior Pastor. But I’m totally shell-shocked by what he told me : The Church SANCTUARY, the place for WORSHIP, was clear-out, and turned into a banquet hall to host his son’s wedding dinner.

I never knew this took place. Apparently, it was ‘Controversial’, but alas, back in the ‘90s who could dare say anything. But, Why didn’t the Board of Deacons in Office then, stopped it? Did they think it was right?

Oh, how audacious of SP & his wife to misuse the HOUSE of The LORD for their own personal event! This must be the first in the world. What does it say of what Prince Guneratnam think of himself ? What has he elevated himself to?

The knowledge of this deeply saddened me. However, I believe this is no coincidence, that this young man was in my residence; I got to read this particular incident on the blog and that this came to light. GOD is indeed exposing all the abuses of position & power of Senior Pastor over the decades.

The present BOD would not act, but take heart, the time has come, Our Almighty God & Heavenly Father will end it.

We can trust in our Sovereign God.

Wedding guest said...

I can confirm that JG's wedding dinner was held in the church sanctuary, with the missionettes & royal rangers gamely serving the guests as waiters & waitresses. I thought they enjoyed it!!! Poor little things..! I was one of the guests. From what I know, only church leaders were invited to the dinner, by the way, & not the whole church.

an old timer said...

Lisa Low:

just for your information:

PG cancelled a Sunday evening service to fit in the marriage of Christopher Lee and Pam Guneratnam.
It is historical and it happened only once in Calvary Church!!

an old timer

the truth is out there said...

On freemasonry, I read an interesting article titled "Why would a Pastor Condone or Defend Freemasonry?" This is found at:

http://www.emfj.org.

You can also read about Freemasonry and Christianity by typing in the key word "freemasonry and christianity" to do a google search.

Anonymous said...

Liza Low, God Bless you.

Thank you for another revelation about the PG family.

Can we have a guesstimate about how much wedding banquet costs did the G saved.

In His Grace,

I'm Anon Discernment Needed No. 2

Royal Ranger 1 said...

@ Wedding guest: us RRs tend to consider it honor n tradition to serve at cmmdrs' weddings, even cmmdr jim (tho i wasnt present at that 1). the most recent i served at was cmmdr eddy's wedding, and it was quite interesting...

jst thought u'd like to hear it from the horse's mouth.

unappreciated said...

Dear Royal Ranger
yes, no doubt i agree with u that whenever we serve (not only when the royal rangers serve at their commander's weddings but as a general, when we serve whoever in church), we usually do it happily and readily....I've also been serving here and there and everywhere over the many yrs happily..never question why I need to do that but just do it since we're all a family of God and we're all doing it for God. But when I found out what SP and his family hv been doing behind our back all this years...I feel so stupid..I thought SP and family also loved us and respected us just like we did them but looks like they were just using us.so yes, I will not be used by SP and family anymore.

Wedding Guest said...

Ah, yes,

There's a feeling of 'being used' [and later DISCARDED when we outlive our usefulness] by SP & SAP which leaves us with a sour taste in our mouths...!

I understand the feeling, Unappreciated!

All of us at CC have been used by this unscrupulous couple (who have masqueraded as anointed servants of the Lord) and some of us have been DISCARDED! Being used & discarded leaves us with a pain in our hearts and not just a sour taste in our mouths, though.

May the good Lord have mercy on us all and heal all the hurts in our hearts and lives, caused by these bad shepherds! Amen.

Angry mother said...

Royal ranger 1

How old are you when serving at this eddy''s wedding ? 12/13 little girl, u enjoy that your biz. We r talking abt abuses of sp n children here.She is not a royal ranger ok! She is my daughter, from the horses mouth ( myself too), i was very angry at that time, as usual, we always were taught, serve God with all your hearts, dont stop your children from serving God. But not until when our children came home and shared what they were told to do OK..

JOYCE said...

Let me clarify on Eddy Law's wedding.

I feel very sad that the joyous ocassion of my nephew, commander Eddy Law's wedding held in January2006, was dragged into this controversy.

The wedding reception (buffet style) was held in CRC and NOT in the church sanctuary. There were professional waiters and waitresses to serve the guests. The Royal Rangers chipped in to help voluntarily.

Just thought it would be helpful to present the actual situation. May I also appeal to all bloggers NOT to drag any innocent party into this forum unnecessarily.

Thank you and God bless.

Simpleman said...

Dear Royal Ranger 1,

In case you are not aware, CT has reminded bloggers not to drag in 3rd party not involved in the issues discussed.

I think you owe Cmmdr Eddy an apology for doing so.

God bless.

Don't Be Distracted said...

To: Royal Ranger 1,

I sense you are trying to distract readers in the blog.

You are being insensitive and lacking in understanding to the young little missionettes, who have burnt their delicate hands in the course of holding those huge hot restuarants plates.

I emphatise with Angry Mother as I won't even ask my own daugther to handle hot plates at home even what more for a public function!

Also, why drag in others who are not part of or involved in subject being discussed.

Trying to be mischievious?

RR 1 said...

joyce n unappreciated gt it right. wedding guest said

with the missionettes & royal rangers gamely serving the guests as waiters & waitresses. I thought they enjoyed it!!! Poor little things..!

id jst like ppl to know we do enjoy it. were nt all 'poor little things'. like unappreciated said, we serve and we're hapy. ive been in RR almost all my life. mothers day, fathers day, i used to go give out those doorgifts. when i was older id serve food at Councils and weddings. AND I ENJOY IT!

angrymother, their many things i did in RR i didnt like, n others might find dangerous/unusual fr a kid to do. pushups for one. bad cooking for another :). more srsly, some camps whr slightly dangerous stuff happened. bt nw that im out of it, i can see that it help build me n tough me. their even girls in RR, n they're quite resilient; mayb ur daughter can join. itll do her good. d experience of serving food; well at least she knows hw waitresses feel n she wont be a madonna n order ppl around nxt time shes at a restaurant (ive seen some girls do that)...

i hv nth bt respect for cmmdr eddy. the moment he became senior cmmdr he launched a wickd camp that was raally original. u ppl think us RRs and Mnettes r jst blind church supporters; well i can tell u we can thik for ourseles too! we hear and see things, we jst dont say it out loud out of RESPECT fr oue cmmdrs.

lastly; We'r not POOR YOUNG THINGS!

tired typin fast dont care for spellin goin to bed

Never an RR said...

Dear RR 1,

Just a comment on yr comments. Just because u enjoyed it doesn't mean others enjoyed it too.

Thus, it would be better if you had used "I" instead of "we" as your views may not represent other RRs and Missionnetes. I thot that would be helpful if case u want to comment again.

A double angry father/mother now said...

To :RR 1

Go, enjoy and have fun, dont have to be so pathetic, you can tell the whole world here, no one seemed to be convinced! what made you think my daughter is not a missionette? she is now already maybe even older than you!, she maybe even your 'tai ka je', you know! you please dont talk as though you are the only one who knows what is royal ranger and missionette, I as a mother very much involved too. Huh, were you there when I drove some rangers to Taman Negara some years back then?

You think it is very right to abuse the little one to serve adults in a wedding function? tell me than who are your sons and daughters, let me abuse them for a while, and I will see how you feel!

Senior pastor's grandchildren, no gift given to them, during the ranger n missionnetes camp out, also make a big ho-hah and cried and complained, Ps susan was then victimised, are you aware? or are you pure innocent?

Hey, please talk some sense, no body said you know or dont know any thing happening in the church now, people only know how much you care! Cart away your 'taiko' attitude that is similar to senior pastor, no one like his style!

Tell me your name, I will be able to square it out with you! I am already very angry, now you somemore ah chi ah cho with me huh

No wonder, there were so many dropped out from the rangers as far as I know! alas, another failure!

ex-missionette MARI. said...

To: RR 1

ee. give away door gift, involve in all activities,'sap sap shui lar' for you alone! not other people children ok!

the subject is on abusing 'appropriatelyly', in this case, serving dinner at a grand wedding dinner of our 'prince no 2' not appropriate.

Not a young Mother said...

To RR1

Do be careful of using your sms English. As a mother I am worried of how your English spelling will look like in the future. OK? - a motherly advice :>)

You enjoy serving - good. Please appreciate those that do not.

Let's compare the two types of wedding functions:

Wedding reception in the CRC would normally be a buffet style lunch and the people help themselves with the food. There would be professional waiters to help the people. The most the RR would do is to go around welcoming guests and serve cakes, etc.

The one in the main sanctuary was a sit down dinner - you know like the Chinese dinner in a restuarant - few courses of food. The "waiter" and "waitresses" brought in the food each round.

The real issues brought out were:

1) Dinner in the main place of worship (no other member in Church history ever had such a privilege)

2) Church staff and facilities plus electricity and water were used (removing the pews, cleaning the carpets, decorating and then putting everything back in place)- how much did JG reimburse the church for usage.

(At the VBS there were complaints that volunteers had to clean up after VBS in spite of the fact they took leave and worked hard the whole day. As they did not want to do the cleaning,they used the church cleaners and the volunteers had to pay the cleaners from their own pockets!!)

3) What is the purpose of using the place of worship - to save money and how much did JG save?

Assistant needed said...

Hie RR 1

I need some help please, I have a brother who is aged old, sick, he basically need someone like you to help and assist in him in his daily lives, would you care to render your help?

RR 1 said...

@ nv RR: yea, thanks.

@ double angry: ok. ok. im stepping back from this disucssion, sorry auntie/uncle if u feel offended (which i'm sure u are right nw). hwever, the dropouts from RR and Mnettes is nt because of these assignments, k? As kids & teens gt older they gt busier n RR n Mnettes become less important in their lives. Pls gt that right.

@ MARI: ok. ok. i respect ur viewpoint. perhaps if others had respected mine, i wouldnt hv posted the above comment (which i nw regret somewhat).

@ nt young mom: you're right. At first i cmmented in a lightheartd way because i thought the RRs n Mnettes were being misrepresented.

my 2nd comment was done rashly and nt in a right frame of mind after reading some insinuating replies. Perhaps its better nt to comment at all n let things be? True, but at lest nw i feel happy abt hvng at least expressde d feelings of my friends n i.

@ Assistant: huh?

Uncle Ong said...

Dear RR 1

I suggest that you refrain from commenting from the standpoint tt you represent all RRs and Missionnettes, both past and present, and that's what had made some parents as well past and present RRs and Missionnettes angry.

If you are not authorised to speak on behalf of all RRs and Missionnettes, just say your views and comments are entirely your own personal views/comments. In this way, you don't offend anyone. I hope this friendly advice can assist you in subsequent comments, Ok? Good bless.

Uncle Ong said...

Sorry, "good" doesn't bless, but God does.

'sian liao' said...

Aiyah, count..count..count.count, I suggest we go..go..go..to police lah..dont want to do this, do that, very sian liao... I dont think I can wait so long anymorelah..I must well dont go to calvary anymore..sian..sian..sian..

Ah Beng No. 2 said...

Dear sian liao

Be patient. Don't leave the church yet. We need your full support so that we restore TTG in CC.

I can understand your feelings because my wife also talks like that. But I always tell her to be patient. We must wait for God to cleanse and restore His church.

Bus Driver said...

Dear Sian Liao

Cannot say dun go to Calvary anymore.PG will be happy to hear that cos he has been telling the members to go to another church.Sad to say many have gone to another church and they are very rich people

Remember the speaker who said change bus?????

BUT....
We want to change bus driver!!!!!
We want to change bus driver!!!!!
We want to change bus driver!!!!!

We want a bus driver that cares for his passengers and follow the road signs. We do not want one that breaks the rules and then bribe his ways through.

The bus driver that we are having right now only cares for himself. He ONLY knows how to ask money from his passengers. He doesn't care whether you can afford it or not. So long as you are in his bus you are ask to give and give and give.

Someone gave her whole bonus.....She had waited 365 days for that moment to receive the bonus and had to give away. Imagine that person will be soooooo hurt if she will to find out how our driver spend lavishly on himself. RM10K suits, RM2K for shoes.

This driver is indeed very selfish.

bus conductor said...

Hi All,

No need to be "sian", just be patient lor. God is trying to build up our patience level.

No need to go away, it is God's church not PG's church. Just hang on & pray that the bus owner (God) will change the bus driver (PG) lor.

Meanwhile, besides praying we don't have to pay this bus driver. I am sure the owner will allow us to pay to other bus drivers after all He own all the buses.

Btw, let's get back to the voting on the fund proposed by Siew Chyuan; we were sidetracked by "sian liao" at 1.30pm. Maybe "sian liao" is a pro-PG supporter who was trying to sidetrack the voting.

Count me in, SC.

Hi All,

My comment above was posted at the Dr Lum resigning blog in response to the comment by "sian liao" (bored already).

Now that I log in to this blog to follow up on the RR-waiter issue & see that "sian liao" also posted the same comment here which is not related, I can only conclude that "sian liao" is definitely a pro-PG supporter who posted his comment at both blogs to distract all of us.

Just ignore him, then he will be "sian see" (bored to death).

sian liao said...

Friend, i memang so sian that i actually tersilap and post here in this post; i memang malas punya orang, don bother to correct it, so i just leave it here.

but dun fight fight ya.. i vely the susah hati, when my friends are leaving..(minta maaf lah).

sian liao said...

Ah Beng 2

you very good, and also very discerning, you understand what i am trying to say! TQ

liza Low said...

I wish to impress upon those who are responding to my comment : *'Sanctuary turned into a Wedding Banquet Hall' that the issue at hand is about SP's & SAP's Abuse of Power & Position, and their total disrespect of God's place of Worship. How audacious!

This should be the members' deepest concern, and they ought to stand up against such absolute arrogance and ensure the abuse be checked and come to an END.

One Wonders said...

I dont think the members realize or appreciate the significance of the sanctuary being turned into a wedding banquet hall.

I suggest one close one's eyes for a moment and imagine your church sanctuary becoming a hotel ballroom with dining tables all over the place.

One wonders whether PG realize the significance of it or maybe he think it was just another building.

Different Strokes said...

re:wedding in the "sanctuary"

Actually the "sanctuary" is indeed just a building. It is God's presence in any place/building which makes it special/significant. The point I am trying to make is that I really don't think holding a wedding in the building (where we hold our worhsip no doubt) is wrong. But perhaps what is not quite right is that I don't believe that any other couples would get the permission to do so - that I think would be the problem ... different standards (privileges) for different folks ...

Ah Heng said...

Dear Different Strokes

A building designed and dedicated to God as His Sanctuary is meant to be the House of God. Period.

I draw your attention to Jesus cleansing the temple in Matthew 21: 12- 13

12 And Jesus entered the temple and drove out all those who were buying and selling in the temple, and overturned the tables of the money changers and the seats of those who were selling doves. 13 And He said to them, “It is written, ‘MY HOUSE SHALL BE CALLED A HOUSE OF PRAYER’; but you are making it a ROBBERS’ DEN.”

We should not compromise the House of God just because it's PG Junior's wedding. I've attended CC for 26 years but have never heard of another wedding dinner held in CC. Real cheapo, can't afford a hotel dinner meh?

No double standard said...

The trouble is the church leadership has give SP too much much so much so that he's real thick skin these days, and thinks the church belongs to him and he can do whatever he wants with it. Consider these:

a) SP cancelled a Sunday worship service to hold his daughter's last-minute wedding service in CC(unprecedented)

b) SP held wedding dinner for his son in CC (unprecedented)

c) SP held mother's funeral service in CRC bungalow(unprecedented)

I wonder whether the church rules allow for all the above, or is SP above all rules?

What will his answers be if members were to ask for any of the above? What will he say? SP, you practise double standards. Shame on you.

Justice for all said...

A brother, a church LG leader, told me some years ago that he requested CC to conduct funeral service for his mother-in-law on a Sunday.

His request was turned down because he was told by an AP that Sunday is the Lord's Day and CC's policy is that pastors are NOT ALLOWED to conduct funeral services, and for that matter weddings too, on Sundays.

The brother was so angry that he told the pastor off, and said he would conduct it himself if the church did want to do it. In the end, he didn't do it of course, but he got another pastor, not from CC of course, to conduct the funeral service.

This is an example of double standard practised by SP - own daughter can but others, including leaders, cannot.

Leaders who are attending this Saturday's meeting, please stand up for TTG and JUSTICE and NON-DISCRIMINATION. We are first-class citizens of God's Kingdom.

AXED LEADER said...

Did u wonder why this Sat's Leaders' Mtg is held over 3 sessions at 2pm, 3pm & 4pm?

Why not in 1 session as was previously done? Is it to divide & rule?

If so, may I suggest that all the leaders, who intend to attend the 2pm session, stay back for the 3pm session when they will be better informed & they can then ask more searching questions.

Also the other leaders should not attend the 4pm session, this way all the leaders would be present TOGETHER at the 3pm session (including those who have to work on Sat morning).

UNITED WE STAND, DIVIDED WE FALL ...

Reuters said...

Saw this under another Blog ......

His way said...
Stop giving is not the way to get their (Sp & BOD) attention, its THE ONLY WAY!

November 24, 2008 5:28 PM

GMF Index Finger said...

Reuters: I don't know about that, the TTG seem to have got a pretty good plan going.

No double standard: Myself, I don't see what's wrong with having funeral at CRC, 'cause I think CRC is used abit like a multipurpose building of some sort. But was the funeral held on a Sunday?

CC Member said...

Dear All
I have been in CC for the last 27 years. I have not seen any funeral service held in our church. All the funerals that I have attended are all held outside the church.
All but with the exception of SP mum's funeral.

No double standard said...

Dear GMF Index Finger,

The issue is not what's wrong with using CRC for a funeral service. The point is, there's double standard practised, because no one else is allowed to do so, as far as I know. Have you had ever attended one there yourself?

not fair said...

yes, i agree that the issue here is double standards. SP not only practices double standard for himself and for his family, but double standards is also given to those rich members which SP feels he is able to benefit from. for example, in order to be married in church, both bride and groom needs to attend calvary church. But SP allowed the daughter of a rich man to get married in church eventhough the bride's husband was actually from overseas and does not even attend calvary.

BT Lim said...

And that rich man concerned is beholden to SP and bashes TTG for opening the can of worms. How ridiculous?

yau loi tai sai ah said...

Ah yoyo. Like that also can. You mean "yau loi tai sai ah" (all big if got money). In CC also got discrimination (did i spell it right, very big word but i know its meaning). This cannot go on. We must stop this.

Anonymous said...

TTG Supporter No. 2 Says

I believe We have PROFESSIONAL Bloggers here perhaps 3 (I finger , Anon 2.5 or Index Finger as one of them) or more hired as SP and BOD's Public Relations Bloggers to refute comments or 'expose' or 'slow' down the posts or progress of TTG or tie us up). They are the ones posting a lot of stuffs. Anon 2.5 always like to have lost word at end of page (i.e. comment 200, 400 etc). Will they admit it?

Anonymous said...

TTG Supporter No. 2 Says

And at the beginning 201 plus, 401 plus etc

NOT LIKE PG said...

TTG Supporter No. 2,

You are right that # 200 & # 400 are by Anon 2.25 but # 201 & # 401 are not by Anon 2.25. We must tell the Truth, not like PG - OK?

Half Truth, No Truth said...

NOT LIKE PG,

That's half truth, also like SP.

sama orang said...

eh, I thought PG & SP is the same person??? No meh?

Sama-sama said...

Of course the same person la. SP is more spiritual, PG not so oh

SP & PG, doesn't matter said...

Dear sama orang,

It depends whether you are from CC or not. If you're from CC, you can call him SP. If you are not from CC, you call him PG. Better lo. Otherwise, we get very confused. Already so confused with no truth and half truths.

SP or PG, doesn't matter said...

I don't know why my name turned out to be "SP & PG, doesn't matter" when I published comment.

My name should be "SP or PG, doesn't matter".

Ah Heng said...

SP or PG, doesn't matter,

I thot those were some bad words or name-calling. Better don't do it, otherwise I will ask blogmaster to delete.

It Does Matter said...

Someone said that we should not call him SP anymore & we should call him PG only as in the post-PG era PG won't be around & we will have a new & more truthful SP.

BT Lim said...

It does matter,

You sure got a valid point. He's no longer SP to many already because the pastor's heart is no longer in him anymore. From now on, I shall call him PG when I blog.

no confusion said...

SP stands for 'Senior Pastor' and PG is the initials of Prince Guneratnam.

In view of the fact that Prince Guneratnam is NOT fulfilling his God-given role as Senior Pastor, some of us have difficulty thinking of him as SP anymore so we refer to him as PG.

Also we are making way for the NEW Senior Pastor when PG steps down.

It Does Matter said...

Hey BT,

You're absolutely spot-on. As of today, PG is merely PG in my books as he is no longer the SP of CC since PG has lost the shepherd's heart.

Someone said that PG no longer CARE for the sheep since he set up the CIM subsidiary - CARED which truly reflects PG's heart, PG cared for the sheep, he no longer care for the sheep.

PG it is said...

u're rite..PG it is. for tat matter, I no longer call ppl like RY and CL pastors either...only refer to them by their own names since I don't think they deserve to be called pastors

PG it is said...

oh btw, am talking abt RY as in not the nice,moustache one. the other one.

Cheapskate PG said...

Double standards are being practised because PG thinks that the church belongs to him:
1. His son's wedding dinner can use the church sanctuary, to save costs, but no one else can use it.
2. His daughter's wedding can cancel church evening service but no one else can.
3. His mum's funeral services can use church premises but no one else can, also to save costs - what a cheap-skate son PG is!
4. His son'e wedding can use church children to be waiters & waitresses, to save costs! After all, he thinks CC belongs to him, & all Calvarites AND their children are his slaves! What a cheapskate PG is, really!
5. VBS teachers have to pay for the cleaning-up out of their own pockets, but PG can use the church's contract cleaners to clean his house for free! What a cheapskate PG is, beh tahan lah!

HLM? said...

How long more?

GMF Index Finger said...

Anonymous 4:01: I'm trying not to rise to the baiting, but really, this is a bit much. I ask a civil question, and what kind of reply do I get?

Getting Comment #400 or #200 is sheer coincidence, and besides, Anon 2:25 has contacted the TTG Committee in person and already confessed a character fault, i.e. he likes to have the last word.

As for me, my blog activity is hardly as often as TTG Supps like simpleman etc. so if I'm, as you say, a 'professional' blogger hired by PG, I think PG will want his money back! And if you place so much importance in getting some magical #200/#400 figure, why not go for 100, 300 and 500 as well? How about number 77 and 777? Or, if you think we're such devils, number 666?

The point is that I feel I and Anon 2:25 are getting picked on for no good reason, and if you behave like this I don't feel any qualms in thinking that you are probably the sorriest, most facetious pitiful little person I have ever seen.

And I won't even say anything about signing off as 'Anonymous' when you know the TTG disapprove.

Good night. I think I'll pray for you, but I honesty don't know right now if I'm in the mood to.

GMF Index Finger said...

No double standard: OK, thanks for the clarification.

lsl said...

To GMX Index finger and ananomous n the like,

please cut down on war of words, I am sadden thru and thru due to our current predicament, we as brothers and sisters suppose to be the happiest and most blessed people on earth and yet, we are now quarrelling with war of words.

to be fair, none of us deserve all these. Please; Index finger, if you ever have any chance to see or talk to PG, please help TTG n supporter do so, help him or counsel him or even lay hand and pray for him, that will do all of us good, whereas, the TTG had done all they can either thru email, phone, face to face and etc with BOD n PG, but to no avail.

Finally, keep your cool. we love each other in Christ, we, like Jesus ssaid, hate the sin.

Simpleman said...

Hi GMF Index Finger,

Since you mentioned my name (moniker) in your comments, I need to make a point.

Is it necessary to pull somebody in just to make your point?

What's the point of making a point if you drag something in just to make your point.

My point is, it's not necessary to illustrate your point by involving another innocent party, ok.

Just raise this point to make a point. Have a fruitful and cheerful day in the Lord.

Simpleman

Too Good To Be True said...

Anonymous 4:01, I understand your frustration with 'professional bloggers,' like Index Finger & Anon2;25, etc....it's like they are always sounding 'too good to be true', like they are trying to stop us (by sounding very Christian and holier than thou) from taking drastic action against PG & his wife PG2! When challenged, they will back down & say that they will not write to A/G or any other relevant Christian bodies to take action and help us out, etc.! All they do is to keep reminding us not to accuse PG & PG2 of this or that, etc., a lot of HOT AIR but no action!!

They are really highly suspect, if you ask me! Probably they are moles planted by the establishment! Anon 2:25 sounds more reasonable than Index Finger, at times.

GMF Index Finger said...

lsl: I've been sniped at throughout this whole mess, ever since I opened my mouth to complain about the language used in comments. I'm tired of being a sitting duck. Some say I'm too good to be true, some say I embody the devil himself. I say that I've been far more patient than is expected of anybody, and if the patience runs out and something nasty happens, DON'T BLAME ME.

Simpleman: Point(s) taken... all 8 of them :D Sorry.

That's about it. I don't really want to say anything more for fear of being accused again, as people are wont to do here. I won't even dignify a certain person's comments by replying; he/she is beneath me.

My grace is running out, as is my mercy and forgiveness. Don't push me please.

huh? said...

Index Finger, your quote: "I say that I've been far more patient than is expected of anybody, and if the patience runs out and something nasty happens, DON'T BLAME ME."

What is THAT supposed to mean? I think I take offence in reading that as it is totally unchristian like for u to say something like that and here u are playing judge on other ppl's comments.

GMF Index Finger said...

@ huh?: You know what? I think I agree with you. The above comment was written when I felt very low and quite literally downtrodden, but now I'm feeling better, maybe cause you seem to be trying to help and not trying to make a snide comment targeted at me.

So yes, it's an unchristian thing to do and I'll try to stop myself from doing it. But I seriously feel like doing it, especially after all the verbal abuse I've gone through.

Advise me, huh?. How should I act now?

Prayer move mountain for Index finger n SP said...

Father in heaven

I come before you in petition and lay before you GMF Index finger, he/she claimed to be hurt merely through this blog and comment column, Lord ask of you to restore him/her, grant him/her love, grace and forgiveness; deliver him/her from this predicament, let him/her be renewed and be reminded of your joy of salvation.

Touch him/her and speak to him, as we read from all his/her comment; he/her appeared to be very concerned over the whole blog and issues here, Lord, our greatest concern is to restore truth, transparency, governance and Father we pray Index Finger and all of us will take up this cross and to press-on for Your Glory and Honor.

As the call for Index finger to approach SP to lay hand and pray and to counsel sp, I pray Index finger will take up the courage to do so, as he/she appeared to be so concerned with the well being of SP and family.

I commit all these in your name, In Jesus name, amen.

Art Of War said...

Oh, great prayer! :) praise the Lord! I will say Amen to that!

Index Finger is all talk and no action, so hope this prayer will get him moving, to lay hand on PG & pray for his deliverance!

Simpleman said...

My fellow brethren,

If any of you, GMF Index Finger included, are thinking of going up to PG and lay hands on him (not to harm he physically just in case you get me wrong and I'm faulted for it) to pray for him, don't look at him in the eyes.

Those penetrating eyes can be very mesmerising as many ex-staff, ex-deacons, ex-leaders, and also YTF, would testified.

Just put your hands on his shoulders and look up to heaven, and start praying and do it fast.

All the best.

GMF Index Finger said...

Art of War, Mountain mover: You're right. Let's go lay hands on our pastor, we three. When are you guys free? Let's make a date?

NeNe said...

Dear GMF Index Finger,

Good idea but first you need to make an appointment with PG. Call sister Pui Leng to do so, and all the best, of course. Hey, it's not easy to make an appointment to see the man. He's Tan Sri now, no longer Datuk anymore. By the way, I heard he's in a foul mood lately.

BT Lim said...

GMF Index Finger,

Just an idea. You remember PG in one of his sermons about 2 months ago, said pastors also need prayers. Why don't you use his "invitation" to pray for him in person.

Thankds

lawyer wannabe said...

Hi BT Lim,

Pastors also need prayers because pastors are only men of God & not GOD. Unfortunately our BOD always fear the man of God but they don't seem to fear God. Through all this mess at CC, I wonder whether our BOD do pray to God & if they do, do they listen to Him for His Will in all this mess?

Perhaps our BOD in their prayers to God is telling Him what they would like Him to do. Alas, they forget that He is not their servant, He is their master.

Btw, Ps Dag Heyward-Mills preached at the 1st service (on 17/8/08) that pastors, if they are smart & know how, can steal also. Due to this statement, history was created in CC. Whereas CC always sold the CD of the 1st service & PG use the 2nd service to rebuke & scold the TTG members; this 1st service CD was withdrwan from sale the following Sunday & the 2nd service CD wherein Ps Dag talked of sheep & snakes was put up for sale.

Ever wondered why this was so? Could it be that PG was worried that the fence-sitters in CC might suddenly wake up & see the wisdom in Ps Dag's words that pastors (including PG) can also steal? Haven't we heard from PG that he could have been a great CEO & another time a great lawyer? Don't you think PG knows that he is smart? If so, don't you think that PG has the "know how" on how to steal from CC?

I rest my case.

GMF Index Finger said...

BT Lim: Okay, so that makes four of us. You, me, Art of War and Mountain Mover. When will you be free to do this prayer?

Personally, I'd prefer to pray for PG in the privacy of my home - you know about the Pharisees, don't pray in public and all that - but since you three are so eager, let's go ahead and do it.

YTF said...

Hi Simpleman,

Wow, how come I am also mentioned?

Hungry lah said...

YTF,

Maybe Simpleman was thinking of having Yong Tau Foo for lunch.

YTF said...

Hungry Lah,

Do you know that one day I was having lunch in a Yong Tau Foo shop with my family and the shop was full house. No more empty tables.

All of a sudden, I saw PG and P. TO standing in front of the shop looking for a table.

I invited them to join us. We ate and talked. But then he said they had to leave first. I wonder why. Definitely not because the food was no good.

university student fr Australia said...

Hello index finger

i think u r talking abt ur yourself lar, why scare? ask u go pray for sp, u scare, n if u sed ppl pharisee arr; u r 1 indeed! u preach in de blog here, u scold, u holier than thou, if u pray in privacy, then u shuld not even listen to christian music out loud u noe, u shud just listen with ur earplug. don keep scolding good n God fearing ppl in tis blog eeh.

u r very quarrelsome, u hit n rebuke everyone, i m not here in Malaysia, but i can sensed u r like a ganster!, if u wnt de 3 go wit u 2 pray 4 sp, i don think they so foolish lor, bcoz u so ganster like, i want to alert de 3 don go wit tis fella, he may bash u up maann...n wise ppl never go blind-dt fr de blog, wit tis man--i think u sound like man..so ur language also ganster-like.. finally God, forgive tis fella, wud u God, please?

Ah Heng said...

YTF, free lunch of course.

Seriously, to GMF Index Finger, if you can invite PG to your house to pray for him, I don't think Art of War and Mountain Mover would mind going there. That is of course you want to reveal yourself.

U asked for it said...

YTF,

Ai yoh yoh, can't u read PG. He's cheapo, just like when he held PG Junior's dinner in church sanctuary, to save $$$. Since u invited him & TO to join u for lunch, YOU ASKED FOR IT.

PG asked for it said...

U asked for it,

If there's ever a next time, u can play him out. midway u excuse yourself to make a phone call and disappear. so tt PG has to pay lo.

Prayer move mountain said...

Hurray University student from Australia.

You wise and smart student, I was about to response to Index finger but after reading your advice and warning, I better not to go for blind date with a ganster-like man.

Afterall, he tried to date people from the blog ( tak tahu malu lah).
Sincerely, do pray for sp and family.

Young man said...

Yes, u are rite Prayer move mountain. Better don't take up GMF Index Finger's offer to go pray for PG. With on-off threats, he may turn violent and bash ppl. Reminder: forget abt going with him. We don't know him, so dont go.

Lend Me Your Ears said...

Listen, everyone. Lend me your ears!

PLEASE DO NOT GO TO SEE HIM WHATSOEVER IF YOU DO NOT WANT TO BE EMBARASSED AND LOSE YOUR DIGNITY.

caution said...

good thinking ppl..i oso wont advise u all to go meet up with pg with index finger. tis index finger is scared to:-
1. write a letter to AG Council
2. go see PG himself
3. reveal his true identity to teh tarik member

suspicious suspicious

Jeremiah 23 said...

Jeremiah 23
The Branch of Righteousness

1 “Woe to the shepherds who destroy and scatter the sheep of My pasture!” says the LORD.

2 Therefore thus says the LORD God of Israel against the shepherds who feed My people: “You have scattered My flock, driven them away, and not attended to them. Behold, I will attend to you for the evil of your doings,” says the LORD.

3 “But I will gather the remnant of My flock out of all countries where I have driven them, and bring them back to their folds; and they shall be fruitful and increase.

4 I will set up shepherds over them who will feed them; and they shall fear no more, nor be dismayed, nor shall they be lacking,” says the LORD.

5 “ Behold, the days are coming,” says the LORD.

BakKutTeh said...

Habakkuk 2:9 & 10

Woe to him who covets evil gain for his house,
That he may set his nest on high,
That he may be delivered from the power of disaster!

You give shameful counsel to your house,
Cutting off many peoples,
And sin against your soul.

BakKutTeh said...

Habakkuk 2:9 & 10

Woe to him who covets evil gain for his house,
That he may set his nest on high,
That he may be delivered from the power of disaster!

You give shameful counsel to your house,
Cutting off many peoples,
And sin against your soul.

Simpleman said...

Amen, the judgement of the Almighty God has been delivered. We will see His victory soon. It's nearer that we think.

VICTORY said...

Dear Simpleman,

Where are the signs that victory is near????

Simpleman said...

I have the strong witness in my spirit. There're no external signs at the moment but it will be soon. Amen.

VICTORY said...

Simpleman,

So you are not as simple as you say you are.

Yes, we hope the day is drawing nigh too. I feel in my spirit that it will not be later than the next AGM.

Mark Anthony said...

Wa! Lend Me Your Ears, you seem to be as smart as Ah Beng & Ah Beng No. 2 'cos you've got discernment that whosoever go to see PG will be embarassed & lose his/her dignity.

Unfortunately, most of us bloggers may not know leh! After asking around to deciper & understand your warning, I think that I have found the answer leh!

Is it because his Lott-ship PG (aka Tan See PG aka Lard Toh PG) may just give him/her the LOTT (Leg On The Table) treatment which was exposed by one of the TTG member infront of PO, SK & ER?

Lend Me Your Ears, will appreciate if you can please confirm this. TQ.

Lend Me Your Ears said...

Mark Anthony,

No it is not as simple as that.

The hint is that none in Calvary Church, whether they are members, staff, deacons, pastors, leaders are at his level to advise him, lecture him, pray for him or to tell him that he has done wrong. None of us, in his opinion or mind is of his league to do that.

No need to say more.

GMF Index Finger said...

Well, my Australian friend, I'm sorry you hold such a low regard of my character, but perhaps if you have been the target of the abuse I received here you might be less judgemental.

caution, lend ears, young man, mountain mover, art of war: Well, who's making the excuses now? I'd be perfectly happy to reveal my identity to all of you. Just show up at CC at a time and date that's convenient to all, and we'll pray for the church together. Unless you are the ones unwilling to show your identity.

But that's the pattern, isn't it? A lot of talk here, asking me to go pray for PG - why me I wonder? - but when I invite you to come with me, everyone scatters for cover and accuse me of being a gangster. And I really don't understand how I'm accused of dating someone on this blog. Malicious comments hurled back and forth are hardly a precursor to love...

Sigh. The whole thing seems like a pathetic little schoolboy dare that backfired on the perpetrator, does it not? I wonder how old you people are really, to be playing such childish games?

Go on. Answer me. I can keep this up all day...

Art Of War said...

Dear Index Finger,

I am sorry but I will not accept your invitation to go with you to lay hands on PG & pray for him..! I'd rather go & pray for the sick in Hospital Bahagia (formerly Tanjung Rambutan)! Why? Firstly, because I have experienced his LOTT treatment before & I certainly do not want to be humiliated again! No way, Jose! Uh-uh!

Secondly, so many people here advising me not to go because they sense you are gangster!

Thirdly, you have a responsibility to 'put your feet where your mouth is' [all talk & no action], a duty not just lay hand & pray for PG but also to preach to him about mercy, forgiveness & repentance - you are always the one defending him and scolding us for not showing him mercy and forgiuveness, so you are the best person to go! Why preach to us when the one causing all this hullabaloo is PG and his like-minded wife? So go talk to him, then I say you velly clever1

Pray instead said...

Index Finger

I've been reading the comments you hv written in this blog and thus far, all I can conclude is that you always seem to have a "I'm better than the rest of you" attitude. My brother, may I suggest you go do some quiet time now, pray, seek God, intercede for the church, instead of writing your comments here. Since you are of the view that the readers have been "abusing" you, why bother coming back to this blog? As far as I can see, your comments have not really helped to add value to the purpose of this blog and so, maybe it's better you just pray and read the bible.
Perhaps if you would consider emailing someone like Bro Winslow (like what anon2.25) did, the readers here will be more willing to listen to you. Otherwise, it's only hot air we're reading from yr comments at the moment.
And pls don't say it's abuse yet again. If you are able to give yr comments to judge other ppl, you should be able to take other ppl's judgement as well and not make threats to the readers.
Just my 2 cents.

Winslow said...

Dear Pray Instead,

Thank you for your trust in me, but better not to encourage GMF Index Finger to email me to reveal his/her identity. Already with Anon 2.25 alone, many including my beloved wife have tried unsuccessfully to get me to reveal his identity. Try somebody else, maybe the blogmaster.

Anon 2.25, please do continue to blog here. I know a few bloggers may have been a bit harsh on you, but some friendly fire is ok I guess. I took the risk when I started the food-for-thot question.

Fellow bloggers, have a blessed Lord's Day tomorrow.

Bye! said...

Point taken, really. My (self-appointed) job here is already complete; the Blog Admins have already enacted rules to stop any unfair bad-mouthing, cursing, dragging-in of innocent family members and irresponsible comments. THAT was the original purpose that got me to start commenting in here.

SO yes, I don't think I'll write here again.

I've been considering this for a long time, and I think I'll be glad once all this is over. I don't thrive on the strife, much as some people say I do.

However, this blog and its comments have been a real eye-opener to me. Anybody reading here can see the secret evil lurking in the hearts of men, let loose by the anonymity of the Internet (myself included, as I lost my patience at least once here) and I'm glad that this blog, at least, has stripped away the facade of Calvary Church and its congregation to reveal the darkness inside.

I have and will continue praying for all of you, and I thank you all for your prayers for me. Truly, I'm blessed by your prayers.

In Grace, with Mercy and Forgiveness for all,
Index Finger

No Respect For PG said...

Dear Index Finger,

I'm sorry you feel you have to go, perhaps as a show of support for Anon2:25, your comrade-in-arms!

Perhaps one of the reasons why you antagonise the others are statements like these:

"...and I'm glad that this blog, at least, has stripped away the facade of Calvary Church and its congregation to reveal the darkness inside...."

All this while, as you keep on defending PG & his wife, you were actually attacking those who are TTG supporters with such statements - you seem to be saying, either directly or indirectly, that we are the ones who are wrong (e.g.darkness inside) & never did you admit that PG & his wife & the BOD & the things that they did actually sparked off all the anger & the indignation. Is it wrong to react to the darkness in the lives of PG & PG2 which have been exposed by CT? After all, we are only human....it is natural to be angry when we find out that our shepherd whom we have been trusting & believing in for so many years have cheated and duped us! It's not that we have bene unkind to you...you brought this upon yourself. If you can 'give' you should also be able to 'take,' lah!

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