Saturday, November 15, 2008

CIM to be De-Registered by NECF (revised with additional comments 17-11-08)

Calvary International Ministries (CIM), the personal ministry of our Senior Pastor (SP), Rev Prince Guneratnam is to be de-registered by the National Evangelical Christian Fellowship (NECF) Malaysia as it does NOT meet the membership conditions of NECF’s constitution.

CIM was established on 8 September 2002 as a personal ministry of SP. It was and has never been a part of Calvary Church. It is definitely not an extended ministry of Calvary Church and does not come under the covering of our church. Hitherto, it has derived its legitimacy by being registered as a member of NECF.

At the church AGM in March this year, when Sis Liza posed several questions on CIM, SP has vehemently defended his personal ministry and declared that no-one has the right to question this ministry. At the recent EGM, a lawyer was brought in to establish the fact that CIM is a personal ministry and therefore, the RM1.9m that was transferred from the church missions fund to CIM over the last several years, cannot be claimed back by the church despite the fact that members’ approval has not been sought.

After the AGM, the TTG members investigated and discovered that the constitution of NECF does not allow the registration of personal ministries as a member. On 20 May 2008, Bro KC wrote to NECF for answers to several questions among which are to check if NECF is providing spiritual covering for CIM and if CIM is registered with them as personal ministry. Bro KC did not receive any reply from NECF but Bro Hong Meng, following up on Bro KC’s letter, was verbally informed by an official there that they had, all this while, thought that CIM was a part of Calvary Church and on that assumption, NECF had accepted CIM as a member. We wonder what was the basis for that assumption. If it is because of a document or representation given by CIM or Calvary Church at the time of application, then it can be inferred that a misrepresentation had taken place. If no such misrepresentation had been made, then NECF may have been careless in approving CIM's membership in 2003. We doubt that NECF was careless and we believe that they were somehow "misled" or "misinformed". It may be interesting to note that SP was the Chairman of NECF when CIM became a member. As the Chairman, SP should know the NECF membership criteria and the ineligibility of CIM to be a member of NECF.

Check out the July-Aug 2003 NECF newsletter at this website:
http://www.necf.org.my/index.cfm?&menuid=21. This fact of SP's Chairmanship in NECF and the announcement of CIM's membership are published in the newsletter. There is also an interesting article in the newsletter by SP on the moral integrity of the church leaders.

On 21 August 2008, Bro Hong Meng wrote to NECF to find out their plans now that it is an established fact that CIM is not part of Calvary Church. On 9 October 2008, NECF replied that “CIM does not meet the membership conditions of our (NECF) constitution and our (NECF) membership roll will be rectified accordingly”. We believe the de-registration of CIM as a member of NECF is in the due process or already done. Here, we must salute NECF for their “bravery” to take such affirmative steps to put things right.

The question that springs to mind now is what will likely happen to CIM? We are fearful that the balance money of almost RM1 million in CIM might be swiftly spent or taken out by SP. We are not so concerned with the RM400,000 left in CARED as the Board of Deacons, at the EGM, has stated that CARED and presumably, the money remaining therein, will become an extended ministry of the church. There were no plans to transfer CIM to church as an extended ministry. We understood then that SP had objected to this. In fact, when another member (the simple housewife) appealed to SP at the EGM to give all the balance RM1 million to the CCC building fund, SP had stood his ground and would not release the money.

Now, with this change in circumstances and if the money is still in CIM, it is quite likely that SP will have no choice but to move CIM to church as an extended ministry. This is the only way, CIM can be legitimate. It is the only way for CIM to maintain a bank account to hold its funds. It is the only way for CIM to continue as SP’s channel to raise money to fund his extensive traveling to attend seminars and conferences around the world. (In church circles, for preaching invitations, usually, the host church pays for the travel costs and usually, with love offering thrown in as well). It is the only way, CIM can be deemed as a religious organization to avoid becoming taxable as otherwise, all offerings and gifts received by CIM will become taxable.

DO NOT BE SURPRISED if this option of becoming an extended ministry of the church is taken by SP because we see it as the ONLY OPTION available to him. In plain language, he has NO CHOICE.

Of course, even after it is moved to church as an extended ministry, several questions still remain to be answered, which are:

1. The balance RM1 million in CIM may be liable to tax as it was accumulated during the period when it was “misrepresented” as a Christian organization under NECF. In fact, the entire RM1.9 million which was transferred from church to CIM may be taxable. It will be interesting if the taxman get wind of this.

2. What were the documents given to the banks for the opening of the bank accounts of CIM and CARED? If they were NECF membership documents and now that CIM is de-registered, will the balance money in the banks be frozen? If the banks return the money, who will the bank return the money to?

3. If misrepresentation has been made to NECF which resulted in CIM being accepted as a member, can criminal proceedings be instituted against the perpetrator? This is because, besides Calvary Church, some individuals and other churches may have given gifts to CIM in the belief that it is a legitimate Christian organisation under the umbrella of NECF.

Whatever unfolds over the next few days or weeks, we hope our dear SP and the Board of Deacons are well prepared to deal with the issues which may arise. Things seem to be heating up. Just to let you know, 2 Calvarites have boldly stepped forward and have informed us, in no uncertain terms, that they are prepared and ready to go to the authorities. All they are waiting for is our signal. Unbeknown to them, that has put a very heavy burden on the TTG “committee”. We are prayerfully, waiting on the Lord. Let’s all pray that it does not come to that.

God Bless.

559 comments:

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Mr F said...

This is interesting.

Many things go through my mind as to what can possibly happen. Unfortunately none are good things.
God has to show the way to the TTG committee.

I wonder about those who are involved in this ministry will be doing once they get wind of this information. Or maybe NECF has already notified the people concerned.

Bravo NECF! For standing up to be counted.

Ah Beng No. 2 said...

Ha hah!

The truth is out! The truth is out! With the latest development, we will see things moving, for better or for worse, time will tell.

The can of worms is slowly being exposed. God's hand will move swiftly and His Truth will be revealed, and no man can block it. Praise the Lord.

Let's see what SP will do. Let's see his next move. He's being exposed (no pun intended), you know what I mean.

Happy At Last! said...

Thank you, NECF. We salute you for your brave stand! My confidence in the Church has been partly restored. All is not lost yet!:)

Simpleman said...

Three cheers to NECF! You did the right thing, standing up for Truth, Transparency and Good Governance.

You have shown the Christian fraternity in Malaysia that you can indeed act without fear or favour.

God bless the leadership of NECF.

W is for well done! said...

Wow! Two thumbs up to NECF for being brave enough to do what's right. They, by doing this, have proved themselves to truly be accountable to God and God only, not men. This is of course totally the opposite to our BOD and associate pastors who rather obey men than God.

NeNe said...

At long last, NECF has finally acted against CIM. We concerned Calvarites in CC welcome this piece of good news after the bout of sad news arising from the CC saga.

Well, the battle to restore TTG in CC is far from over. Let's not rest until we see the day when TTG will be fully restored in our church, and we can once again lift up our heads and tell the world we are Calvarites.

God will not be mocked by misrepresentation!

TKM said...

Members of the BOD of CC, take a leaf from NECF's brave decision.

They have stood up for TTG, how about you now?

Don't be cowed by the man (you know who) but fear the Lord and He will surely bless you and your family.

O Lord, we pray that every member of the BOD will stand up for TTG. Help them overcome their fear of the man who controls them.

Cause them to turn their eyes upon Jesus Christ, and do the right thing. Amen!

cmw said...

thanks God, finally we can visualist God's hand in handling this case. Three cheers to NECf,KC,Hong Meng for your follow up and rest of the concern calvarites.


To God be the Glory...


cmw

Anonymous said...

The Christian community is held in high regards by so many other faiths. Christians are judge more severely by other and we should show them that Christians are honest, accountable and God fearing.

It does not matter is a Tan See is involved. At one time there are many Datuks and even a Tan See in jail.

Christians have to be very careful. Every other person is watching us.

SP needs to repent and go back to start from scratch. Maybe I suggest he be mentored by someone!

Until he is ready, he should not preach but be teach.

normal said...

NECF is basically ratifying a technical oversight. Don't think that they are acting "against" CIM.

technical oversight my foot said...

Normal, it is not a technical oversight. When SP registered it under NECF, he gave ppl the impression that it is PART of Calvary Church but since then, SP has been adamantly telling ppl that it is his personal ministry. In other words, SP will change his facts as and when it is convenient for him and as and when it suits him. Technical oversight? I think not. There was a deliberate act by SP to deceive. And looks like NECF is acknowledging that since SP deceived them, it can no longer be part of NECF. Of course they are not going to outrightly say SP lied to them but this is the 1st step to TRUTH.

CRYbaby 17 said...

voila..this is serious mann, you are saying SP somehow have a 'magical' way to have a set of document so well documented either by technical means or magical means to dupe NECF to even allow his (PERSONAL MINISTRY--even kk wong said this at EGM) to be registered as a member in order to have a bank account and now after being exposed by the said 2/3 persons thru some thorough documentation verification, it got DEREGISTERED as a member, and want to come back and lean on calvary church account, i thought CIM very gangho wan because in the EGM, i heard kk wong said, no one can see the account, it has its own right, it is a separate entity, no one can see the document wan, and now cry baby ahh...so mampus la..no more CIM account, paralyse already lor, cannot operate ahh? cannot travel also ...aiyo, how?? BOD ??? Can BOD help him this time???

shame shame said...

if got any children of deacon or children/grandchildren of sp reading tis...pls go warn yr papa/mama tat they shud repent now while they stil hv the chance..otherwise, the 2 ttg members gonna go to authorities n then,it is too late to turn back....shame shame for them...

ZLL said...

Hello TTG, looks like you guys really quietly doing your job, no whistle blowing! so they call this 'guerilla war',very cool, steady and slowly, but not the 'tortoise war'

so, my friends out there, pray and pray for TTG for more truth to be revealed yah! I believe this is again God's divine intervention because you guys posted prayers..and truly prayer can move mountain..Thank you Jesus,amen
Truly, I pray for SP that God have mercy for him, may his forgiveness be upon him.

abc said...

15/11/08

Wah!!! now that NECF is ratifying a technical oversight it gives TTG members another option to go to IRB to straighten things out. A word of appreciation to the 2 Calvarites who are prepared to go to the authorities.

Surely if SP is a Christian he would render to the government what is due ie. pay his due taxes!! Then he has nothing to fear.

Someone brought up in a blog SP had raised the question is the Lord he worships the same as the one that TTG worships.

By his action (fruit) you will know the answer.

abc

His Light shines in darkness said...

All Calvarites who read this blog and this post should tell 10 others.

The whole Calvary church congregation, young or old, should know what SP is doing all the while. Yes, Associate Pastors and Deacons are good at hiding matters from members but God is no respect of man. In His time, He exposes our misdeeds. Sn Pastor's true color is out.

Congregation, you can't afford to be blinded. Open and see. Tell others and warn them of the misdeeds of Sn Pastor and many other leaders.

Press on for the Lord for He is Righteous and Holy. By the way, Sn Pastor does not preach on the holiness and righteousness of God. Why? People in the dark, doing things in the dark never like the light. Worst, they never want the light to shine on them.

B.T.K. said...

so, CIM is a personal entity,a personal ministry..then, how can it be parked under calvary church or extended ministry? in this case, i can also start a personal minstry and park under calvary church or extended ministry, get the church to support me and i can go round collecting/solicit funds or some forms of activities but yet i dont need to pay tax and not accountable to church account because it appeared to be under the church umbrella but yet it is not, it means this is quite deceiving, confusing and misleading..

No way, we as concerned calvarites should allow this kind of conduct to continue..we need proper accountability in terms of finances of church fund. Integrity in our character as a christian and church.

NECF member said...

The leadership of NECF should not stop of delisting CIM membership. If the membership of CIM was approved when Prince Gunaratnam was NECF Chairman, he ought to be investigated for any misuse or abuse of power.

NECF's extra mile will augur well for Christian oranisational leadership in Malaysia.

Christian said...

The voice of NECF is a respectable one. I follow the wonderful work of NECF in these recent years and salute you leaders as beacon of light for the Lord in Malaysia.

I continue to uphold of you in NECF in my prayer. God bless!

anymore said...

Integrity in SP?????

SP lost his integrity and credibility long ago.

Most of the church members are not listening to him anymore.
People are not trusting him anymore.
People not giving offering anymore.
Some are not attending CC anymore
Many not supporting CCC anymore

TTG are there anymore?????????
of SP wrong doings?

very 'gan jeong' said...

From what I read on the date Hong Meng wrote to NECF, Mid august, and NECF responded only some 50 plus days later, looks like quite a long wait, why take NECF such a while to response? I am sure it must have some complication..

Nevetheless, thank you NECF and we pray that those christian leader out there from any other churches, please do not allow yourself to be entangled with this kind of conduct..and we pray for NECF to continue to rise as a God fearing body and be a good example to all other organisation to stand for good governance, truth and transparency. Perhaps we too want to appeal to AOG to expedite your responses whenever other AG churches look up to you, we are disappointed that after our EGM, with the presence of your member in our meeting, yet we see slow response.

integrity said...

We salute NECF for rising up for the Christians in Malaysia. We believe God is raising people in our land for His soon return.

NECF must do a good job, cos the Christians in this land want TRUTH, TRANSPAENCY AND GOOD GOVERNANCE.

What happens in CC is a testing for the Christians in Malaysia, especially the way NECF is dealing with the issue.

Question for NECF
1. Can your decision pass the headline test?

C_E_T_N_ said...

Dear "Normal"

What technical oversight are you talking about? It's CIM's misrepresentation to NECF. Period. In other words, it's C_E_T_N_.

Bamboo Conspiracy said...

Dear TTG

This is the happiest news I have received. I am very delighted to hear this. You stood as a minority against the opinion of Christian leaders and Christian organisations and in the end they have realised that it is time for TRUTH to prevail and had to rectify the mistakes. I wish it could have been sooner but the timing of victory is always in God's hands.

You have lovingly shown others that TRUTH will always prevail. This is the beginning of the end and the start of the post Calvary Church era. I am so happy for all of you.

BUT don't rest on your laurels. Remember, the enemy has short memory and he will come back with a vengeance. But you need not fear. No weapon the enemy forms against you will prosper - in fact it would be turned against him!

I await the final victory when Calvary Church returns to its original true owners - the individual members of Calvary Church. I pray the recent turn of events will open the way for further reconciliation and inner healing and the dawn of unity within Calvary Church Malaysia.

TTG - you better start preparation for the book which I believe will be well received locally and internationally. It will tell the emotional true story of a band of brothers and sisters who dared stand against all odds for Truth, Transparency and Governance and found that the Lord was, is and will be faithful to those who chose to stand, sometimes alone, on His side.

His Name Be Glorified

Vijay

True Story said...

Thank you, Lord, for this breakthrough!

Thank you, Lord, the truth shall prevail! Bless brothers H.M. & K.C. & other TTG warriors! Bless the NECF for making this stand for truth & righteousness!

May the fear of the Lord come upon the Christian community in the nation!

In Jesus' name,I give thanks and praise, Amen.

Praise the Lord said...

Thank you Lord for your intervention.
God is working behind the scenes.

TTG praise the Lord for the intervention. Be encouraged. God is at work when we think He is not.

God is good and He will not let His people who are crying out to Him to intervene.

Keep praying!!!!!
God will do more marvelous works which you have not seen. Trust in Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith

CIM (See I Am) said...

It's time for SP and deacons to do soul searching. The sheep are hurting. The Lord is not pleased.

Ask whether you are still a blessing. At times, resign in dignity is far better than ask to leave in disgrace.

How long more the leadership can be in a stage of denial?

Anonymous said...

Come on BOD!! You guys still can keep quiet at this time.

Do something about it. If not, PLEASE RESIGN!!!!!

BOD, you are not protecting the interest of the church members.
Please STAND UP for the TRUTH and not for SP!!!!

CC Member said...

NECF, do you announce the deregistration of CIM in your newsletter?
If you have done the deregistration, we would like to see the announcement.

MH said...

Thank you for upholding truth and righteousness, NECF.

And thank you, TT crew for not giving up. Will continue to pray for God's wisdom and strength to be upon the TT members.

Vila-vila said...

Yes, I expect the Board of deacon to make some sort of announcement again, seemingly on behalf of Senior pastor; what else and what capabilities do our BOD have other than rushing to make announcement?

If they are going to announce this --CIM returning home( that is back to calvary church), should the members accept it? dont you think that the BOD should have done something about the CIM way back in April after the AGM, why are they waiting for this moment? why are they having the guts to engage criminal lawyer to justify? why are they engaging forensic accountant to justify?

So, is our BOD being prudent? wise? pro-active? Are they helping SP or actually help to destroy him?
Are they keeping quiet and blindly supporting him had caused him to fail? BOD, i am sure SP and wife and children would not forgive you guys...

the good, the bad & the ugly said...

The Good, the Bad & the Ugly,
The Good,
NECF, which had taken the courageous & rightful move to deregister CIM from its membership.3 cheers for NECF.
The Bad,
The bod, which had stood by silently & even helped sp to plunder money to the tune of millions from the church.
The Ugly.
Sp, who had schemed & devised (manipulations, misrepresentations, deceits,fraud, etc, etc...) all mthis while to siphon money from the church thru CIM (Christ is missing).
The aftermath,
Now that the truth had been revealed and righteousness prevailed, follow-up actions must be activated, may i suggest the bod to engage KK Wong to file legal proceedings to get back all the money being siphoned away thru all these misrepresentations, fraud and deceit as well as to check for any or rather how much more criminal offenses have being perpetuated. The whole church have been duped by the bunch of cim directors (sp, pg, jg, po & al)& bod who have kept a deafening silence even tho they know very well all these fraudulences. Maybe they are in the so-called 4th. dimension. Ever wonder how these people can still stand in the pulpit and preach, sunday after sunday.
Praise to the Lord for he hath made everything beautiful in His time.
the good, the bad & the uglg.

No To External Ministry said...

NO TO EXTERNAL MINISTRY,
Now that the beans have been spilled over the CIM deregistration by NECF, sp would try EVERY trick to legitimatize CIM so that he can continue the siphoning of money from CC & the bod would as usual support him citing 'good business sense'. As suggested, he might park CIM as an extended ministry.
The whole church, or at least those who are for Truth, Transparency & Good Governance must vehemently object to this manipulation. We have enough of your tricks & deceit (sp & bod). Rise up all ye kings, take your rightful place and stand up to be counted to stop this deceit. "Lord, we pray that You will clean up the mess in CC and let Your glory fill the place once again after all the cleansing, in Jesus' name; Amen & Amen"
No to external ministry.

Bamboo Conspiracy said...

I totally support what CC Member said. NECF must announce the deregistration of CIM in its newsletter - soonest possible!

This is because the registration of new members are published in the NECF Newsletter - so it is only proper that the degistration should also be mentioned.

Furthermore, the reasons for the deregistration must also be mentioned as the public has the right to know the truth.

As a member of the NECF Research Commission, I am delighted with the recent turn of events and praise the leaders of the NECF, especially, the new Secretary General for standing for TTG. WELL DONE. You have my 100% support. I will stand with you even if we are the minority!

I now hope other Christian leaders and Christian Organisations would publically do the same.

Vijay
Member NECF Research Commission

Mr F said...

Thank you Vijay for your support.

You dont know how happy and pleased the TTG members are to have you giving your support. Not that you are suppporting them just for the sake of supporting but really and sincerely supporting the truth. And God has sent you to support them in the right timing and it gave the TTG committee much hope, strength and moral support.

One day soon, I hope the TTG members can have the privilege of having fellowship with you.

AMEN!

Mr F said...

Dear Vijay,

I dont know if you have been informed of this or whether its of any significance in your research work.

Do you know that most of the TTG committee are members of CC for more than 15 or 20 years. Some are even more than 30 or 40 years!

Some were members before SP ever stepped into CC.

So its not the new members whom some people think are here causing some trouble in the church.

Anonymous said...

Dear members of NECF & other friends

Now that as you are aware there is an organisation called NECF, we should put our hands together to uphold NECF. Am sure all of you who receive the Berita NECF receive along with it an envelope to let you know that NECF is having a deficit. So please help them, one person cannot do much but with all your help!!!!!

one of the concerned member said...

Dear Friends
We are reminded that we are to remain sober! perhaps, this is moment where we can unite our hearts to uphold Sp and family in prayer and also continue to pray for calvary.

The Lord is our refuge, all glory and honor be unto him, for He alone deserve our praise. amen

concerned and humble member No. 2 said...

Dear fellow calvarites
we are His instrument, just as the Lord use an individual, the Lord too use different organisation, we shall all refocus our praises unto the Lord, and quietly and privately extend our thanks to the different one..we shall all remain 'still' before the Lord.

I agree with 'one of the concerned member' to pray for SP n family.

Ah Beng No. 2 said...

BOD,

The deregistration of CIM by the NECF was based on "misrepresentation" by CIM abetted by CC, for without SOMEONE signing a letter using CC official lettehead, the NECF would not have been "misled" to perceive CIM as an extended ministry of CC.

BOD, you must investigate this matter and get to the bottom of it. You should investigate:

a) Who instructed the CC administration to issue the letter to NECF stating that CIM is an extended ministry of CC when it's clearly a personal ministry (SP himself confirmed this at our last AGM)

b) Who signed the said letter. This person must be investigated and stern disciplinary action be taken against him/her. This abetment is a serious breach as it amounts to misleading the NECF. he person's action has also brought CC into disrepute as it has undermined the integrity of our beloved church.

c) Who signed the letter to the bank/banks where CIM opened its accounts. Again, this person must be investigated and stern disciplinary action be taken against him/her. This abetment is a serious breach as it amounts to misleading the bank/banks. His/her action has also brought CC into disrepute as it has undermined the integrity of our beloved church. Bank Negara must also investigate this matter.

BOD, you have a moral obligation to the church membership and more importantly to our Almighty God to investigate thi matter and discipline the person/persons involved, regardless of their positions in CC. You must act without fear of favour of any man, but with godly fear of our awesome God. If you don't do it, you are answerable to God. GOD WILL NOT BE MOCKED.

BOD, if no action is taken against the culprits, all of you are sending the wrong signal to CC and the general public. Everyone is watching us. Remmeber, God is also watching.

If one man can do it, what is there to stop another man/woman to use the same tactic to mislead the NECF or others using CC leaderhead.

This a serious breach and you must act, BOD. The ball is in your court, and please dignify yourself!

God is watching, BOD!

Ah Beng said...

I am in 100% agreement with all that was said by Ah Beng No. 2. He has outdone me; indeed, version 2 is an improvement on the original. He is definitely an Ah Beng (NIV) -new improved version.

On a more serious note, BOD do carry out all the 3 investigations as suggested by Ah Beng No. 2 or else STEP DOWN & let others who have more guts (& fear God more than they fear man) to do the expected - STAND UP for Truth, Transparency & good Governance (TTG).

Simpleman said...

To members of the BOD,

Now that things have surfaced and mind you, this is only the tip of the iceberg of truth, don't sit back and continue to echo "let God be God"..."let God be God"..."let God be God".

Please stand up and be counted as the proactive servants of the Lord.

Redeem your integrity and dignity, whatever little is left, by doing the RIGHT thing. This is the moment of truth, for CC and the Church of Jesus Christ in Malaysia.

BOD, act according to your OWN conscience, not the conscience of another! God bless.

Simpleman said...

Father God,

I praise You for You are indeed our Eternal Truth and Eternal Light of the world.

I thank You that in Your Eternal Light, darkness will surely be dispelled forever.

In this momemt of truth and as we concerned Calvarites rejoice for the Truth of God has been revealed in the affairs of CIM, I remember to uphold SP and his family in prayer.

Forgive them as You have forgiven us. Lead them in the path of righteousness. Restore them as You have restored us in our moments of weakness.

You still love them and teach us to humble ourselves before You always, so that as You pour Your overflowing love on us, we will respond accordingly and continue to love the G family.

I pray your protection upon the G family and cause them to walk in the light as You are the Eternal Light.

In Jesus' Almighty Name. Amen.

Servant of the Almighty God,
Simpleman

Anonymous said...

I am sadden by the "expressions of joy" at this anouncement. When David heard that Saul fell, he wept when he heard the news even thought he might have felt vindicated. I am disappointed with my fellow brothers and sisters.

Malu Lah said...

Dear Anonymous 2.25 pm,

Are you implying that church members and Christians can do wrong things or sin, and its ok provided others dont find out about it?

dunia terbalik said...

Hello anonymous 2.25pm. We cannot rejoice when something right is done by a national Christian Organisation. But you and SP & Family can rejoice when he took (without permission) millions of ringgit for himself and family to fly overseas. No wonder we are in this mess.

You and many others who support SP seem to be very happy to see SP & family, rolling and splashing church members hard earned money but feel sad when people make a right decision. It it so embarassing to be associated with people like you. I really hope you are not one of our pastors or BOD or church life group leaders or some other leader in church.

Reading the Twister said...

To: anonymous at 2.25pm
another one anonymous twisting wrods! I read all comments, but none seemed to shout for joy as you claimed.. I have even read comment asking for prayer for Sp and family and to remain sober..

please do not attempt to make TTg look bad. TTg are people with love and maturity..

God knows our hearts.

Bamboo Conspiracy said...

Dear Mr F.

Thanks for the information. The fact that the church is made up people who have been long time in Clavery is significant information. As for whether there is division, we can trust the Lord to bring inner healing and reconciliation. I am very sure none of the pioneers want to see Calvery Church divided. You have been a blessing and perhaps the instrument (with others like you) to bring the church together. Let us comfort those who are hurting and rejoice with those who have found liberation.

The presence of a large number of matured God fearing Christian means Calvary Church may be modelled along the leadership style of the New Testament Churches.

In the NT Churches, it was a group of elders who were the overseers of the church. The one-man ministry is foreign to the NT church. If fact there are Christian researchers like Dr. Ralph Neighbour, Dr. Graydon Snyder, Dave Norrington and others who support the view that the modern day pastoral office has stolen the individual Christian’s right to function as a full member of the Christ’s body. The one-man pastoral office has robed the teaching of 1 Corinthians 12-14 that every member has both the right and the privilege to minister in a church meeting. It has voided the message of 1 Peter 2 that every brother and sister is a functioning priest. Christian researcher George Barna has written that based on his research and personal testimonies, most one-man ministers cannot stay in their office without being corrupted on some level. The power-politics endemic to the office is a huge problem that isolates many of them and poisons them from the congregation.

Based on my observation of events in a number of churches in Malaysia, including Calvary Church, I would suggest that the post Calvary Church should never be given to a one-man ministry. Instead, the congregation should elect a group of elders based on biblical principles who will oversee the operations of the church. (Please don’t call them BOD!). The elected ones must be those who have a proven track record of the witness of God in their lives. These men and women must be God fearing and spiritual with a testimony of God in their lives. They will become the teachers, the prophets, the apostles, the evangelists and the shepherds in the church of Jesus Christ. Only the Holy Spirit can guide you to those He has elected to the various offices. The elders can take turn to minister in Calvary Church according to their gifting. There is no necessity for a one-man minister. The group of elders can select those whom the Lord has elected for the various ministries in Calvary Church.

In the NT, church planters deliberately left so that the church could function under the headship of Christ. This is because, if the church planter stayed in a church, the members naturally look to him to lead and this hinders the principle of each member being a royal priesthood. The pattern throughout the entire NT is that church planters (apostolic workers) always left the church after having laid the foundation.

Since, Christ has risen; we the Christians have become the temple of God. It is for that reason that the NT always reserves the world church (ecclesia) for the people of God. For the first three centuries, the early Christians did not have any special building nor were they led by a one-man pastoral office. The NT church under the headship of Christ means that He may speak through every member of the body in the church by using the various gifts and ministries granted by the Spirit (1 Cor 12).

Please note that these are suggestions only. ONLY the Holy Spirit can guide you. God has a plan for Calvary Church - your duty is to find His plan and obey Him.

For more details see
•The Normal Christian Life by Watchman Nee.
•Reclaiming God’s Original Intent for the Church – Wes Roberts & Glen Marshall
•Exploring the root of Church Practices – Frank Viola & George Barna

Vijay

ccily 2 said...

Anonymous 2.25 am,
Our expressions of joy are totally relevant....we should be joyful when lies are exposed, the tide of evil is stemmed, and justice triumphs once again. We are joyful when God answers our prayers - remember we had one week of prayer on CT? - and rejoice we will, when we see God vindicating those who uphold Truth, transparency, good church governance and Christian stewardship.

Let the banner of victory be unfurled, onward Christian soldiers!

Standing up for Truth said...

Dear Anonymous at 2:25pm,

Please don't quote scripture out of context.

We rejoice because God has exposed the deceit of man who misrepresented to achieve a goal. This is a LIE.

disappointed said...

Anonymous 2.25pm, pls look in the mirror first b4 u speak further on how 'disappointed' u r. Were u also disappointed at SP when he lied and deceived us, when he siphoned money out of CC? If you weren't, then I have to say I am also disappointed at u.

NeNe said...

Hi Anonymous, 2:25pm

When lies are exposed, God's people rejoice because He's the God of Eternal Truth, but the devil is eternal lies.

While we rejoice that the truth has been revealed, God's people must pray for the fallen man. That's what Simpleman's prayer (10.31am today) is all about.

God's not finished with him. He still loves him, but he must show true repentance. When a man walks in God's Truth, the Truth shall set him free. This is Revelational Truth for all of us who call ourselves believers of the Almighty God.

It's all about INTEGRITY of man, and of CC of which we are part of. If the Church of Jesus Christ doesn't stand up for TRUTH and be people of INTEGRITY, who will?

Brother/sister Anonymous, don't be blinded by blind loyalty to one man. Be set free by the God of Eternal Light. Walk in the Light as we are in the Light. Think about it!

Waiting for SP's next move said...

SP, please stand up for integrity. Not only Calvarites are watching you, many in the Christian world, both locally and internationally, are watching. Even non-believers and potential believers are watching. And more importantly our God and Your God is also watching.

SP, please walk the talk. Be a man of integrity. Everyone is watching. I'm watching. God is watching too.

WSF said...

Dear SP,

All eyes are on you. You have made made many wrong moves all these years. And your wrong moves have stumbled many in their faith.

I pray to God that you will make the right move from henceforth. Yes, everyone is watching and you can't afford to make any wrong move for you will stumble many more. And God will hold you accountable.

We're all watching and watching. Yes, God is also watching. He loves you but He hates the things you do.

repent first said...

yes, if sp repents now, we will surely forgive him but he needs to first repent instead of pushing back the blame on the church members for 'bringing this up'. and the BOD and Associate pastors need to repent too. for the whole year, we have been suffering as we were constantly condemned by them as being trouble makers and murmurers etc. Even up to last Sunday, Sp was still preaching sermons to condemn us to say we are faithless while he is a man of God. Pride goes before a fall. The bigger he is, the harder he falls.

NeNe said...

Dear SP,

The people are not only watching but we are also listening.

You have often twisted scripture to achieve your objectives, not God's objectives.

You must stop it as God will not be mocked. He will hold you accountable for every word that proceeds from your mouth.

We must give God the glory. We must tell others, especially the unbelievers, that we give God the glory.

I have been a believer for more than 34 years, but I have never heard someone preached like you did that "we need not tell others that we give glory to God".

We are listening, SP. And God is listening too.

Ah Heng said...

Just to add on to NeNe. Yes, we are listening but the Holy Spirit in us is helping us to discern the wrong teaching from your preaching.

We will surely say amen to the right teaching but we will NOT say amen to twisted teaching which is not from God. We will reject it in Jesus' name.

Ah Lian said...

If CIM has misrepresented itself when applying for NECF membership, I belive it must have also done the same when opening its bank account/s. By the way, how many bank accounts does CIM have. Anyone has the answer???

Has TTG reported the matter to BNM? This is serious matter.

Truth Prevails said...

And one more thing....We demand a public apology (at the pulpit) from the following people:

1. SP
2. SAP
3. Associate Pastors who have slandered us by saying that we have been spreading malicious allegations
4. Six out of the seven BOD

shame shame said...

for those ppl like Mr Why So Long and some other ppl who keep saying why we ah ji ah cho here and tat we talk with no action...hope u satisfied with this latest update by the TT Group..or u still wanna ask why so long? so, the conclusion is tat TT Group never ah ji ah cho. it is BOD and SP tat ah ji ah cho...trying to putar belit watever they have done to confuse us. i tell u ar, i hope tis SP don't go run away with the money from CIM...if he does, really siau le. and BOD, u better be careful lo coz im sure the govt has ppl reading tis blog too and next thing u know they wil come knocking at yr door asking u all why lie to the govt oso..gosh, u guys really lie to so many ppl, really shame shame

Winslow said...

While I rejoice that the truth has been revealed as reported in this lastest posting, I'm equally saddened that our church which is supposedly the bastion of truth and integrity has been implicated in CIM's application for NECF membership.

INTEGRITY. It's a big word. Let's not play around with this overused and often misunderstood word.

INTEGRITY means and implies:

1) Honesty
2) Virtue
3) Honour
4) Morality
5) Principle
6) Uprightness
7) Righteousness
8) Goodness

Wow, this is really a heavy order for anyone, what more for a church which is now in the limelight, rightly or wrongly. Many are watching at us. More importanly God is watching too.

Calvary Today started as a blog for Calvarites to, among other things, read about issues pertaining to TTG in CC.

Over the months, many others on both sides of the divide, including concerned individuals and parties like our TTG comrade, Dr Jay, have come onboard this blog.

Some have been very objective and wise, and extremely careful with their choice of words, while others have been very "hot" in articulating their views, and yet some are mere "loose cannons", you know what I mean.

In the midst of all these happenings, we are now confronted with this whole issue of INTEGRITY.

As believers, we should take time to pray earnestly to God, that our leadership will carefully consider the far-reaching implications of the CIM's NECF membership saga.

The deregistration by the NECF is more than just a technical oversight as put forward by anonymous (2.25pm today). In my opinion, the whole issue poses a big question mark on the INTEGRITY of our church.

I'm saddened - I don't know about you, members of the BOD - that on one hand we often claim to be a fountainhead church, and yet this time round our INTEGRITY is at stake as a result of the CIM's NECF membership saga.

My prayer is that we should, collectively as members of this local assembly, pray and work at the same time to restore INTEGRITY back to our beloved church. We should not continue to recite the mantra "let God be God". It's time for prayer and action. As someone has commented on this blog, we need more than praying and fasting believers.

We owe it not to ourselves, but to our younger and also future generations, and most of all to our Almighty God, that others down the road will look up to us and say, "Hey, I see a church of INTEGRITY and I want to attend this church".

It does not matter whether we are a fountainhead church or not at this point of time. God will make us one if we obey Him and do His will, and I believe wholeheartedly, that He will make us a fountainhead church in His time. We need not clamour for it, He will reward us if we do His will.

Before we come to that stage, we must work at restoring INTEGRITY to our church, for it's the hallmark of a fountainhead church.

I know as a matter of fact that not all Calvarites will agree with my views, but I'm at peace with God as I pen my thoughts.

I pray to God that you, members of the BOD, will arise and act, and with God's guidance, we will overcome and restore INTEGRITY to our church, which I believe has the potential to be a fountainhead church if only we submit fully to His discipline and will.

God bless,

Winslow

CIM, Cash Is Missing said...

We rejoice!!!!! God has revealed the truth to us.
We rejoice!!!!! God is surely with the TTG.
We rejoice!!!!! God is not mocked

To God be the Glory
For the things He has done

Anonymous said...

"Sorry to be a Party Pooper" says to
TTG & Supporters...
The battle has just begun!!! Every step & tactics carried out here in this blog has been stymied and thwarted by SP, Bod and the usual suspects.
You have been outsmarted. Go figure why your plans were known in advance.

Anonymous said...

Dear brothers and sisters,

When I said I am saddened by the "expressions of joy," I am simply referring to those comments that expressed rejoicing at the news headlined in this post. I thank the brothers and sisters who called us to be sober and/or to prayer. You may disagree with me, but I believe this is not an occasion for rejoicing. To take another example from Scripture, when Ananias and Sapphira were exposed for lying to the Spirit and the church, the response was "great fear came upon the whole church." There was reverential awe but not rejoicing.
We should rejoice when souls are saved and when sinners repent.
I am also saddened by all this talk about being SP supporters or TTG supporters. To me, this smacks of the party-spirit Paul condemned in Corinth.
Right or wrong, he is still our pastor, and we should love him and pray for him, even as we hold him accountable for the wrongs he is alleged to have done. Please don't split the church into those who support him and those who do not support him.
If you know me, you will not accuse me of being a supporter of this group or that group. At the risk of being misunderstood, many in the so-called TTG are my friends, and are people I love and respect. The same goes for the pastors and deacons.
All I ask is that we demonstrate Christian love and humility.

Anonymous said...

ULITU

Saya cakap lu dengar...

Birds of a feather flocked together at Baton Rouge

"Shake the Nations" 2008 International Church Growth and Cell Conference

Wednesday, October 8, 2008 - Friday, October 10, 2008
2008 International Church Growth and Cell Conference
Baton Rouge, Louisiana

Truth Prevails said...

Hey, Party Pooper,

If what you say is true then it just proves that SP is a sly fox, a snake in the grass! So that makes you like him!

What does it benefit you to support a liar and a covetor?

Anonymous said...

ULITU at Conference I

Join Dr. Cho and a host of anointed speakers and teachers for three days
A partial list of speakers joining Dr. Cho includes:

* Pastor Larry Stockstill
* Baton Rouge
* Reverend Casey Treat
* Federal Way
* Dr. Bob Rodgers
* Reverend Alex Clattenburg
* Dr. Marilyn Hickey
* Reverend Benny Hinn
* Aliso Viejo
* Dr. Phil Pringle
* Reverend Wendell Smith
* Dr. Ken Eldred
* Dr. Paul Kim
* Dr. Richard Bernal
* Reverend Mario Vega
* San Salvador,
* El Salvador
* Dr. James Marocco
* Bishop/Doctor Dag Mills
* Reverend Randal Ross
* Dr. Jerry Johnston
* Dr. Prince Guneratnam

Anonymous said...

ULITU some of my peers are also in the same boat to wit my friend Dr Jerry Johnson

See Wikipedia:
Controversy
In March 2007 The Kansas City Star ran a front-page investigative series of articles on financial concerns at First Family Church.[3] The paper published several follow-up articles on additional questionable activities of the Johnstons: Lavish lifestyles, [4] Jerry and Jeremy Johnston side businesses,[5] as well as delinquent tax payments. [6] Additional reporting was done referencing that all of Jerry Johnstons children and his mother work on staff with him. [7]. Online reporting also reported on the honorary degree granted to Jerry Johnston. [8].
After the stories appeared, Bott Radio Network, a Christian network with 50 stations based in the same city as First Family Church, announced it was dropping Jerry Johnston and First Family Church from its local AM station (the only station in its network that the show was on). "Bott said the newspaper report raised some serious questions that could be easily answered if the church joined the ECFA" and that the ministry refused to join the Evangelical Council for Financial Accountability (ECFA) pursuant to the radio networks standards.[9]
In July, 2007 a follow-up article was printed in The Kansas City Star citing additional allegations, including the misuse of a $50,000 contribution to Jerry Johnston Ministries that was allegedly diverted to a personal account of the Johnstons'. The article also reported that after the initial March 2007 articles in the Kansas City Star, the Kansas attorney general's office began an investigation into whether Jerry Johnston used church money for personal gain.[10]
Legal charges have not been filed but an investigation is ongoing by the State Attorney General.[citation needed]
A contractor who worked for the church filed several complaints regarding the companies with the Internal Revenue Service, charging that church employees are forced to work for the companies, that church donations are used to fund Jerry Johnston Publications, and that church resources are used by J Cubed Media to conduct business.[11]

Ah Lian said...

Anonymous at 7:16 PM,

You're being very NAIVE to think that TTG will tell all its action plans on this blog.

Hey, TTG is smart eventho' SP is sly. TTG will outsmart him for God is always on the side of Truth.

Go and eat more "tai thau choy", my brother/sister. It's dinner time!

Anonymous said...

Party Pooper says

the only way U gonna gain headway is also go international.

Clues

Get IRS involve per US donors and collaborators.

Don't trust anybody on the BOD!!!!!

Easy to yoke and bond 6/7 tainted deacons (small numbers manageable) thru own VOLITION or compromises or blackmail.

Newsworthy said...

Dear Anonymous at 7.32pm today,

Thanks for highlighting Jerry Johnson's saga highlighted by Kansas City Star's front-page investigative series of articles on financial concerns at First Family Church.

Maybe, The Star in Malaysia may want to carry out some investigative reporting into the CIM saga. If The Star is not interesed, maybe The Sun may want to do it.

Let's have the expose. Over to you, The Star/The Sun.

Anonymous said...

ULITU says

SP, BOD and Supporters doesn't mind wading in dirty pool (lied straight-faced while U cried, cheat you spiritually, scammed you to tune of >$1.9 million, hired lawyers and accountants) while you blog and can't do nothing because some of you are under yoked!!! Rest of you are not willing to wield the God's Sword.

Anonymous said...

ULITU says 2 Newsworthy

That's one alternative

Ah Heng said...

Wow, when The Star/The Sun starts its investigatives series, I can bet the ACA, IRB, BNM and the rest will descend on CIM and SP will have his hands full man!

He will then come running, not to the rock for the rock will not hide him, not to the sea for the sea will not hide him.

He will be forced to run to the Rock of Ages, but he must repent and serve time first, before he can hide in the Rock of Ages. This is justice, God's way.

Truth Prevails said...

Party pooper,
Please stop talking in riddles! Are you friend or foe? TTG has never trusted the 6/7 BOD! Please just tell it like it is, if you are a friend!

As for that list that was shown, i.e. SP with the "who's who" of A.G, it's no big deal because that was what SP had akways wanted, or coveted...to be famous & to move in the same crowd, the big names of International A/G.

However, I must admit I am surprised that Dr. Cho is also accepted by this group! Is there no justice in A/G? This is enough to make me wanna leave A/G forever!

Anonymous said...

Party Pooper says to Ah Lian

" I have also smart deacons and supporters too who can outfox you TTG guys" says SP. "See I got you frustrated at EGM"

Anonymous said...

ULITU to Ah Heng...

Its more than a year already and Johnson still flying business class.

Anonymous said...

Party Pooper says He wants Truth TO prevail.

I'm friend!!!!

Truth Prevails said...

Oks, Party Pooper. Sorry for shooting you just now!

Anonymous said...

ULITU

Inform all the Calvarite membership and all CC goers to browse this blog.

That's your audience.

TMTH said...

Thanks for the heads up, Anonymous.
U mean the BOd and SP already knew the TTG's plans even before they are formally announced on blog etc? Does it mean that there is a traitor/infiltrator/spy somewhere?

Agree with Newsworthy. Perhaps it's time to expose SP's lies and abuse of funds in public, get the newspapers in. Looks like SP is still unrepentant as he probably flew business class to the Conference in US? I think only Calvary Church is recession proof, all companies - even public listed multi nationals, have asked their staff to stop flying business class even for long distance flights. But our SP is still spending Calvary Church's funds lavishly like nobody's business. Ridiculous!! If he is still unrepentant even when God has given him so many chances to repent, I say we report to the authorities! Show no mercy for we shall receive none from him!

Anonymous said...

Dear Brother Winslow,

I have always appreciated the way you have commented in this blog. You are one those who have chosen your words wisely. That said, I do wish to point out that in your reference to my post at 2.25 pm, I did not say or imply that the matter of the deregistration of CIM from NECF was merely a technical oversight.

I concur with your concerns for integrity, but I also believe that humility and love need to be shown by all concerned.

I do not wish to respond individually at this time to the all of responses to my comments, but I do wish my brothers and sisters will respond to what I have written, nothing more.

There is one comment I do wish to respond to. Please do not accuse me twisting the scriptures. If you think my understanding of the scriptures to be incorrect, please show me where/how I was wrong. I am willing to be corrected. Accusing a brother or sister of Scripture twisting without further ado seems to me to be unbecoming of a Christian.

CIM objectives? said...

Got this from http://www.davidcho.com/journal/jbody.asp?id=533

According to the site, Calvary International Ministries (CIM) was established at the commemorative celebration in recognition of Rev. Datuk Dr. Prince Guneratnam's 30 years of faithful ministry at Calvary Church. It is a non-profit international and interdenominational evangelistic ministry.

The mission and objectives of CIM are:

Preach the Gospel to ALL nations

Research and publish materials on church leadership and missiology

Encourage and train pastors, leaders and missionaries

Assist churches in developing their missions program Conduct evangelistic rallies, missions and church growth conferences

Help coordinate relief projects for humanitarian needs globally
With the world's population over 6 billion, the urgency to proclaim the Gospel is very evident.
----------------------------
My thoughts: Looks like other than encouraging and training SP and SP alone, CIM has failed to fulfil ALL its objectives.

Anonymous said...

What the BOD, TTG and Concerned Calvarites must do now is not to allow SP to succeed parking CIM as an extended ministry in CC or link to CC in whatever form.

Knowing that SP is a sly man and will turn and twist facts as and when circumstances suit him in his agenda, it is pertinent now that no opportunity is available to him to take advantage of now or in future.

It is better to close the door now than to take a risk as none can read SP's mind. Those of you who watched the Dallas television series will remember JR Ewing.

I rest my case.

Anonymous said...

I wish to reflect a bit about the "problem" of Calvary International Ministry. This is my personal refelction which may be correct or incorrect, in parts. As a point of reference, I am the same Anonymous of 2.25 pm. My real identity, it seems to be, is of no consequence. I have my own reasons to remain anonymous for the time being, or forever.

As I recall, CIM was launched at the 30th Anniversary Dinner Celebration in recognition of SP's 30 years ministry at CC. To launch the ministry a seed fund of RM30,000 was presented as a gift from the church. Everyone seems to be happy at the time. I did have some personal reservations about the wisdom of the matter which I kept largely to myself and my spouse. I thought it would have been better that such a ministry be launched at SP's retirement from CC, to avoid possible conflict of interests. But I did not want to be a naysayer when everyone seems genuinely happy.

As to the relation of CIM to CC, it seems a bit blurry at the time. How CIM came to be a member of NECF we are at this time uncertain. I think it is unwise to jump to conclusions without further information. As to whether the matter needs to be pursued, I leave it to the wisdom of my betters.

To me at least, the problem started when CC "gave" annual contributions to the tune of RM100,000 without the knowledge and/or approval of the general church membership. I believe CC leadership needs to give a satisfactory answer to tne general membership of the church how this came about. This is the issue of transparency.

I think a widespread feeling among CC members (whether it is the feeling of the majority is debatable)is that CIM ought to dissolved and the funds reverted to CC Missions. I think the feeling of "elation" at the deregistration from NECF seems to many as a first step towards that end. Though I still maintain (many may disagree with me; that's okay; but I am disappointed many are or were) that "expressions of joy" are inappropriate. Note that I did not say "shouting/jumping for joy."

Perhaps, the BOD and/or SP should seriously consider dissolving CIM at this time and reverting the funds back to CC Missions. This may not solve all the problems that beset our church, but it might be a first step and a sign that reconciliation and healing is in sight.

Winslow said...

Dear Anonymous at 9:51pm,

Thank you for your clarification.

I also wish to clarify that at no time did I say you twisted scripture because when you addressed your comment with "Dear Winslow", the impression given, correct me if I'm wrong, is that the subsequent paras in your comments also refer to me.

If you're referring to others who commented on your earlier comments, kindly state so. I hope you will do the needful so that others won't take your comments out of context and I get the blame.

Thanks. Goodnite and God bless.

Anonymous said...

Dear Winslow,

Thank you for your comment.

No, no, I am not referring to you with regards to "twisting scriptures." Sorry for causing that impression.

As I reviewed the comments, I realized no one actually accused me to twisting scriptures. One person accused of twisting words and another of taking scripture out of context. My deepest apologies.

Wondering said...

This question may have been raised but I dont remember seeing the answer.

If SP travels and preaches under his personal ministry of CIM, does he do it during his official CC working hours or he applies for his annual leave?

If he does it under CC working hours, then it is not right. It will then be what our Sis. Liza had mentioned that it would be considered as moon--------. Am I right to assume that?

BTW, does anyone has any clue of how many days does SP has for his annual leave?

moon*** said...

good question, wondering. I believe Sis Liza mentioned it in one of her letters to BOD. But better be careful when u use the word moon****, RY might start crying again if he hears it. I agree that SP should take leave if he goes for any conferences/meetings/seminars under CIM - since it is his personal ministry, all this should NOT be done during his working hours while in CC.

moon*** said...

by the way, I checked out the handbook scanned by Calvary Today and looks like SP should have 23 days of annual leave.

Wondering said...

Dear Moon***,

Thank your for checking it out on the annual leave. You sure are fast and efficient.

You must be a real efficient manager.

JChong said...

can anyone check whether SP needs to apply for leave when he goes for church camps?

cause i know church staff have to do so.

moon*** said...

Dear Wondering, thank you..I try my best.

Dear Jchong, good question. You are right, I believe church staff need to take leave for anything and everything that is organized by CC that isn't held in their office premise. Poor church staff. Question, who approves SP's annual leave? No one is his boss.

Anonymous said...

The administrators of this blog and the members of the TTG have spoken out numerous times of the need of truthness. I think since we expect SP and/or BOD to be transparent and truthful, we must do so as well. Part of being truthful is that we do not bear false witness against the other.

As I carefully read the main post, I noticed that all that NECF said is that "CIM does not meet the membership conditions of our (NECF) constitution and our (NECF) membership roll will be rectified accordingly." Nothing is said about any misrepresentation made on the part of CIM/CC at the time of its application. To imply such, it seems to be, is to be untruthful.
If there is an inference of misrepresentation in NECF's letter to CIM or presumably to Hong Meng, please cite it on the blog.
It is possible that misrepresentation was made (an integrity issue), but that needs to be verified and not simply assumed to be so, as it seems by some of commenters. To assume wrong doing without evidence violates not only the principle of "innocent until proven guilty" but also, I fear, borders on bearing false witness. As I said earlier, whether this matter needs to be pursued, I will leave it to my betters. Till then, let us withhold judgment as to whether integrity was compromised.

Heart searching said...

If SP and SAP will take the step of repentance, ask forgiveness from the pulpit for mishandling of funds, not being a good steward of the funds that CC members have given and apologize for not being a caring shepherd at times.
How many of you will say "Yes, I forgive you SP..and lets start all over again, be our SP, lead us CC to be the fountainhead church again. We'll all come back to CC and give our tithe and offering once again.
How many will FORGIVE him??

JChong said...

I'm guessing the best answer from SP would be "God is my boss?" or probably the Board of Deacons will approve it.

this is the portion that most CC members don't realize - that the rules are impartial and unfair to the other church staff. why should a senior pastor be exempt from his own rules?

liza Low said...

All that I wanted to say and ask re CIM (and CARED) were in the 14 Page letter. I'd hope BOD answer all the questions-- alas, not even 1 Q was addressed

Now, I really have *reason to believe, BOD probably never bothered to read it, or if any one of them ever did, didn’t comb through the full contents-- which I deemed every bit to be very important for their attention.

*Yesterday, one of BOD asked if I had asked for copy of the KK Wong's and Ferrier Hodgson's Reports/findings, because they claimed I never did.
Well, the request was there in last paragraph of the letter!

The reason for bringing this up is because, had the BOD really & truly care and had answered the Q posed truthfully, and acted on the issues with urgency, the many comments/&more questions posted in this blog could have been avoided.

It is down to “ NOT HOW MUCH the BOD KNOW but HOW MUCH THEY CARE! ”
For they do know alot but they don’t care—just consider all the pleads,cries, appeals, letters, petitions, etc by the concerned members made to them.

However, we can take heart that God does Care and He will Act, which is clearly evident for all to see--
In Him we trust.


NOTE: The 'open letter'to BOD, dated 18 Sept 08 untitled :Questions Unanswered at the EGM (in BLOG ARCHIVE SEPT 08 )

Anonymous said...

Drinking too much Teh Tarik To Liza Low,

Are you serious or being facetious?
Of course SP, SAP & Guneratnams, Pastors, All the BOD members and a large number of Calvarites have read the posts in this blog including your queries. They do take this blog seriously.

Whether you are being taken seriously depends on your standing and their strategies.
Whats your agenda? Do you have any skeletons or baggage in your life? Have you shared personal stuffs with other/s that have come back to haunt you. Remember nothing remains in confidence. People, including pastors, are human beings after all. They have an unbridled tongue at the end of the day!!!! Equally worse is that they can abuse it!!!!!

Sorry to say the above applies to ALL OF US especially when we have over the past 36 years of Guneratnams regime in CC!!! Enough time to compromise and yoke us!!!!!

Note: This response is not directed at you but to all of us TOO.

Anonymous said...

Drinking too much Teh Tarik to Anon 10:57 pm.

Your reservations about CIM seeding is noted. My question to you is are you for TTG or not? Don't be ambigous about it.

Remember Dr. David Cho is SP's mentor.

Remember Jerry Johnson Jerry has plenty of experience speaking about Government and Political Influence. Jerry has had plenty of action with the IRS, AG and the DEPT of REVENUE to share his strategy with.

Remember ALL seven 7 BOD members, including handpicked pastors are in SP's fold.

Remember his Tan Sri's title and

Remember his hand on church coffers to hire PR, lawyers, Accts to battle against us at our expense.

Aiyo we are almost lost..

NO! No! We have God's anointing on us TTG


Whatever that SP and his followers say remember any unlawful, inethical, unholy (association with ungodly folks), immoral MEAN does not justify a good END.

Even Bishop Paul Tan said " we will not go against laws of the country or unethicsal or immoral end"

Anonymous said...

condone any unethical or immoral action...

Anonymous said...

Since Bishop Tan said "..we will not go against the laws of the country and will not condone any unethical or immoral action"

Can we seek his support for TTG after all he did involved in our anniversary celebration via his congratulatory message!!!!

Anonymous said...

Praise the Lord and pass the chequebook says

"The quickest way to degrade the gospel," says Revd. Costello, "is to link it with money and the pursuit of money. It is the total opposite of what Jesus preached. These people have learnt nothing from the mistakes made by the American televangelists."

In response to prosperity Gospel espoused by the like of Revd. Brian Houdston, and some say about Drs. Yonggi Cho and Prince Guneratnam.

Anonymous said...

Tim Costello wants to know how much of the Hillsong Church wealth is going to Brian and Bobbie Houston . "The churches have an enormously privileged position in society - not only do they not pay tax, but they are exempt from many of the fringe benefit rules as well. As a result, they need to be open and fully accountable. Anyone can walk into my church and find out exactly how much I earn, what car I drive, whatever, including any other associated monies I might earn from being a minister. I would like to ask the same of Hillsong."


And still they want to scammed us ever providing (not necessary prosperous) faithful.

Anonymous said...

Phillip Powell, a Pentecostal preacher and a former general secretary of the Assemblies of God (the umbrella group of which Houston is now president), says Houston's overseas speaking engagements are at churches whose own senior pastors are "on the circuit". Powell, who has set up a "watchdog ministry", Christian Witness Ministries, in part to monitor Hillsong, says, "They get paid huge amounts of money to speak at each other's churches. The money goes to Brian, but his profile comes from Hillsong." It is a bit like the Pope charging for speaking engagements, and then keeping the cash. (Houston says Powell's sentiments are "pitiful comments from a pitiful man who knows nothing of Hillsong or of me".)

You scratched my back I scratched yours!!!


And still they want to scammed us ever providing (not necessary prosperous) faithful.

Business class flights and overseas accounts (non taxable) for families!!!!

Anonymous said...

Then Brian's father, former minister Frank Houston, confessed to being a pedophile.

Finding out his father had abused a child back in New Zealand was, Houston tells me, "like the jets flying into the twin towers of my soul". It was, understandably, one of

the hardest issues he has ever had to deal with. "Basically I received a complaint, so

I confronted my father and he admitted it." Houston removed his father from all roles in the church, but did not contact police in New Zealand because the victim was old enough to do that himself. He said that he was candid with his congregation, although he has been criticised for not acting quickly enough.



Delay, Binker, Erect and Deploy legal and other worldly barriers and obstructions with aid of with willing accomplices and then only when confronted with no choice admit and steal Glory from God who used TTG servants to expose this Pedophile!!!!


Moral of all these comments
Yup!!! Time is of the essence.

Anonymous said...

Dear "Drinking too much Teh Tarik to Anon 10:57 pm."

You asked, "My question to you is are you for TTG or not? Don't be ambigous about it."

It all depends on exactly what you mean. Am I for Truth, Transparency, Accountability, and Good Governance? Definitely. But I am also for speaking the truth in love and walking in the humility and the fear of God.

I share the expressed concerns of the TTG, if that means to bring healing and reconciliation in righteousness, truth and love.

But I am opposed to being part of a "party-spirit" to support this or against that.

I am fearful of being called a (TTG) warrior if that means fighting against the established leadership of the church, even when we perceive that they have failed us big time, especially when we try to "demonise" them in our attempt to "win the war." I sincerely believe the use of "unrighteous means" ought to be avoided, even if the "other side" is believed to be using "dirty tactics."
I believe we are called to be peacemakers, and not fighting against our brother or sister.
By all means, seek the truth, call for accountability and transparency, with prayer, pleadings, just actions. How we conduct ourselves in the struggle to renew our church is very important because it will determine who we will become after the dust settles.
I hope I have been unambigious enough.

Anonymous said...

PTL and pass the chequebook says

Above comments from
http://www.smh.com.au/news/National/Praise-the-Lord-and-pass-the-chequebook/2005/02/18/1108609391134.html


One of my point here is that CC needs checks and balances which is non-existent because of SP totalitarian and masterful control and regime!!!!

Anonymous said...

Drinking too much Teh Tarik to Anon 10:57 pm

OK. Clear. Peace out. Praise God for dialogue!!!

Anonymous said...

I know many of us are hurt and hurting. I am deeply disappointed that SP and/or BOD have allowed this to go on for so long "by being silent." As the shepherd of God's flock, I hold him to be primarily accountable to what is happening in our church.

But when though we are hurting, in pain, and angry, I believe we must not speak out of anger and in unkindness. I want to say that I love and respect you, SP, but sometimes it is a real sruggle.

I pray to the Lord and plead with you, leaders of the church, to do what is needful to bring healing and reconciliation to our church.

Anonymous 2.25

Anonymous said...

It is such a struggle that I even mistyped the word. :)

CALVARY TODAY said...

To Anonymous at 1.16am, Nov 17,2008

The word “misrepresented” was only used in the following paragraph towards the end of our article, which says:-

“1. The balance RM1 million in CIM may be liable to tax as it was accumulated during the period when it was “misrepresented” as a Christian organization under NECF. In fact, the entire RM1.9 million which was transferred from church to CIM may be taxable. It will be interesting if the taxman get wind of this.”

Notice that the word “misrepresented” used is in inverted commas. When a word is used in inverted commas in written English, it is because of a lack of a better or more defining word. If you read carefully the whole paragraph, you should be able to grasp that the emphasis of the paragraph is on the tax implications and NOT on any misrepresentation that you are trying to imply.

The word “misrepresentation” was only used in the subsequent paragraph, which says:-

“3. If misrepresentation has been made to NECF which resulted in CIM being accepted as a member, can criminal proceedings be instituted against the perpetrator? This is because, besides Calvary Church, some individuals and other churches may have given gifts to CIM in the belief that it is a legitimate Christian organisation under the umbrella of NECF.”

The above paragraph does not declare that there was a misrepresentation. It is merely a question.
You should not simply jump into conclusions that CT is alleging a misrepresentation.

Nonetheless, if NECF says that "CIM does not meet the membership conditions of our (NECF) constitution and our (NECF) membership roll will be rectified accordingly", it simply means that CIM’s membership in NECF since 2003 is now clearly improper or wrongfully approved. For CIM to be accepted as a member in 2003, surely, it means that someone had given NECF a document or a representation that led NECF to believe that CIM qualifies and meets the criteria for membership. This infers that a misrepresentation had taken place.

Unless you are suggesting that NECF is so careless or ignorant of their own constitution that they simply admitted CIM as a member. Even so, the Chairman of NECF at that time should know the membership criteria and the ineligibility of CIM to be a member of NECF.

WHY? BECAUSE our dear SP was the NECF Chairman at that time. (Check out the July-Aug 2003 NECF newsletter at this website: http://www.necf.org.my/index.cfm?&menuid=21).

If Anonymous says that we should not infer that there was a misrepresentation, then there can be no other explanation except that there was abuse of position on SP’s part. We leave you to decide.

By the way, in the abovementioned NECF newsletter, besides seeing that SP was the Chairman at the time and the announcement of CIM’s membership, there is an interesting article by SP on moral integrity of the church and its leaders. Therein, SP wrote:-

“Ministries have been destroyed, believers have been scattered and worldly lifestyles have infected the Church due to the absence of moral integrity. Spirituality, moral integrity and credibility wane if increasing love of money and materialism is unchecked. The common saying, “power corrupts” has become a vivid reality in some seeking position, recognition or status. Because of a lust for power, even leaders who hold strong moral values concerning financial integrity and accountability have fallen.”

Our God certainly has a great sense of humor!

frustrated and disgusted said...

To all pastors and Board of Deacons

Where are you? How long will you keep silent? How long are you going to go on business as usual as though nothing is happening?
The church members are waiting for you to take action. How long are you going to ask them to wait? Do you want to wait until the Lord do something drastic before you take action?

JL said...

17/11/08

I refer to Liza Low's comments about the non-replies to her letters. She's not the only one who wrote because I wrote too. I was told that since it was addressed to the Board of Deacons (there are 7 of them), they need to concur who amongst them should reply. Up till now the reply is not forthcoming!!!

This could be the problem within CC because the leadership of the church does not practise open conversations - this short-coming has to be OVERCOMED.

I also understand at least from 1 board member that he does not read this blog and out of concern I told him he should because it involves his integrity.

If this board member does not read, what about the others?

So the question is, how are we to achieve our pursuit of truth, transparency and governance when the important BOD does not read?

Let's pray they will be brave enough to face issues head on and not bury their heads into the sand, hoping the issues will solve by themselves.

JL

GUILTY as charged said...

Anonymous at 1.16am,
I do not agree with your opinion at all. Come on, let's smell the coffee and face the facts, let's not live in denial anymore....you mean to tell me that SP, who was chairman of NECF at that time, DID NOT know that membership conditions of the NECF constitution was not to include personal ministries? Or perhaps are you implying that he DID KNOW that personal ministries were in breach of the NECF membership roll but he thought that CIM was NOT a personal ministry at that time? Come on, seriously, even a kid won't believe that. It is so obvious that SP told NECF at the time of sign up that it WAS NOT a personal ministry so he could get it legitimize under the covering of NECF, but once CIM was set up, he CONVENIENTLY changed it into HIS OWN personal ministry so that the church members CANNOT question him about what he does with the CIM funds. Our SP is not a stupid guy ok, he has planned this so perfectly..but yet, every plan has a loophole and SP did not realize that NECF would dare to meddle with his CC and CIM affairs after so many years and DE-REGISTER CIM. So, stop living in a fantasy world. SP has already been proven GUILTY. What else do u want?

Puzzled said...

To heart searching...

"If SP and SAP will take the step of repentance, ask forgiveness from the pulpit for mishandling of funds, not being a good steward of the funds that CC members have given and apologize for not being a caring shepherd at times.
How many of you will say "Yes, I forgive you SP..and lets start all over again, be our SP, lead us CC to be the fountainhead church again. We'll all come back to CC and give our tithe and offering once again.
How many will FORGIVE him??"

You mean he is not giving back any money?? How about promising to step down from being head of every committee, etc.

Am also puzzled about "touching not God's annointed".

SP was appointed by CC to be our Senior Pastor and he in turn has appointed other Pastors. If he is God's annointed by virtue of being appointed - what about the other Pastors. Are they also God's annointed?

Lay leades are appointed in the Church - can they be classified as "God's annointed"?

Really puzzling!! :>)

don't touch said...

Puzzled....good points...u r rite, if tat is the case..then everyone serving in church (not just leaders but even those who were appointed to serve) are all God's anointed. And as such, the phrase 'Touch not God's anointed' which have been so flamboyantly used by SP supporters wud then oso nd to apply to everyone of us...so SP and BOD better not dare touch us coz we are oso God's anointed!

Long time Church Member said...

Dear puzzled,

What anointing are you talking about?
There is no more anointing on any of the pastors or BOD.
The fact that none of them, not a single one dare to make a stand and get kicked out or get sacked from their jobs, goes to proof only one thing. Every single one of the pastors and BOD are afraid of SP. If you are not afraid of losing your job, why not say something or do something?
I am hurt by what is happening in the church and I ask is this your church, are You still here?
The answer I got from God is, Yes this is still my church and I am still here. But then I ask God, Why are you letting these things happen? Why are the pastors whom You have put in this church keeping silent?
I still have not got the answers to the last 2 questions.
Maybe, to all pastors, do you have an answer for me?

MISREPRESENTATION said...

CALVARYTODAY IS ALREADY BEING VERY FAIR BY USING THE WORD "MISREPRESENTATION" IN THEIR QUESTIONS. IF IT WAS ME, I WOULD BE USING STRONGER WORDS LIKE "DECEPTION", "LIES", "CHEAT","DUPE","SCAM","SWINDLE". THE LIST CAN GO ON.

faithful musician said...

as a young man, i was fooled by pastors who spoke me, making me believe that the TTG only wanted to create havoc in church, till now. there are other young people who have been fooled, and its such a shame to see their minds controlled and brain-washed. as a christian, i am thoroughly disappointed in the church as an organization. Once again we have seen through history that the various church organizations have used Jesus' name to do various misdeeds (i.e. Knights Templar). But the most important thing is our simple believe in Jesus, and that itself is sufficient to bring us through. Church organizations are formed by man. SP may continue doing this (fraudulent?) misdeeds, but God will NOT be mocked.

the misrepresentation to the NECF can be used as a charge, to recover actual "losses" by the church (referring to the amount the missions dept have given to CIM over the last few years). the de-registering of CIM is already the first move and proof, and for that Damages can be claimed as a result of misrepresentation. But who is going to take that step to bring it forward?

Ah Heng said...

In the July-August 2003 issue of NECF Berita, on page 14, NECF announced the following new members
into its Fellowship as Ordinary
Members:

• New Horizons Society
represented by Michelle Cheng
• FGA Church Prai pastored by
Saw Thean Oon
• Grace Community JB
pastored by Raymond Chong
• Megah Ria Kailer Christian
Church pastored by Lydia
Wong
• Living Streams Community
pastored by Magdalene Loo
Jee Nam
• Calvary International
Ministries (CIM) represented
by Rev. Datuk Dr Prince
Guneratnam
• Harvest Community Centre
Penang pastored by Patrick
Chong

I believe that the NECF, a reputable organisation representing the evangelicals in Malaysia, would have done its homework before approving the above members, and for that matter, other members too prior to and after the admission of CIM, based on some stringent terms and conditions.

And I believe the NECF committee entrusted with the responsibility of vetting the supporting documents provided by those wanting to be members, including CIM, would have sighted some sort of documentation verifying that CIM is a ministry of CC, or words to that effect.

And I believe the NECF had always been under that the impression right from mid-2003 until recently when TTG alerted the NECF on the status of CIM that the NECF realised that CIM is not part of CC after all.

This is MISREPRESENTATION, and don't tell me that SP, being the Chairman of NECF then, did not say anything. Very strange, or did he?

A not-so-faithful musician said...

Faithful Musician,

till today, plenty of other young people are being told that the TTG are just causing trouble etc etc.

But i believe we are moving in the right direction and there are already 2 individuals who are ready to take this to the next level, pending instructions from TTG.

Come on, Jesus!

NO MORE RESPECT FOR SP! said...

anonymous 2.25,

WHAT?!! you still respect SP, ah? Well, I am sorry to say that I have lost all my respect for him & SAP, & BOD as well!

How do you respect people who teach & preach the Word but deliberately NOT practise it? How do you respect big-time hypocrites? Can one respect LIARS? Can one respect those who tell people not to be covetuous but they do the same thing behind closed doors?

And by the way, it is not RM100,000/- flowing into CIM's accounts but RM.200,000/-! I no more respect for da man, lah! As a Christian, I discipline myself to stop short of HATING him & SAP!

disillusioned member said...

First of all, thank you TTG for creating this blog for members who yearn to hear the truth.

I am a young adult and have been attending this church for more than 5 years and I honestly have never grown so much in serving the Lord until I attended Calvary.

As Faithful-musician has mentioned, I was "illusioned" by what other pastors and other SP supporters have been telling me about the whole matter about CIM, as well as other related issues.

Having to serve in the creative arts ministry was not an easy feat when you are doubting about the direction the church leader is taking, moreover, the AGM and EGM aftermath wasnt exactly what you call a proper "damage control".

After months of comprehension and personal observations, there is not a shadow of a doubt that God has been in the light of this situation and the act of NECF de-registering CIM has not been a coincidence or a mere accident, but has proven more of God's power in the leak of darkness.

I believe that there would be more miracles to come, and when the evil-doing is being EXPOSED further, God's name is glorified.

i am grateful to be a "disillusioned" member of this church, who stands up for what is right and who cares too much for the leader and his sheeps to see them fall.

Yes, it is misrepresentation said...

Misrepresentations may be classified as fraudulent, negligent or innocent.

Fraudulent Misrepresentation

A fraudulent misrepresentation is a statement of fact made without belief in its truth either recklessly, knowingly or without caring whether it is true or false with the intention that it should be acted on and it is in fact acted upon. Male fides are not a prerequisite for a fraudulent misrepresentation to be proved. Where a contract has been entered into by reason of fraudulent misrepresentation, the person induced may rescind the contract, claim damages or both.

Negligent Misrepresentation

A negligent misrepresentations may be caught by the common law or under the Misrepresentation Act 1967. Innocent misrepresentations are made where the maker of the statement has reasonable grounds for believing in its truth, and a negligent misrepresentation cannot be fraudulent, provided they had an honest belief in the truth of the statement made.
--------------------
In CIM's case, I believe it constitutes as a FRAUDULENT MISREPRESENTATION on SP's part. Lawyers out there, what say u?

faithful musician said...

to "no more respect for sp!":

i can empathize with how you feel, but hate is really not the way to go with this. albeit a pastor, he's still human as we all are, prone to pride and greed. we have to continue praying for the church and for an intervention to take place. i am still serving because i believe in a higher cause, it is my offering to God, not SP. this mismanagement (or not) in church should be handled with the utmost care and precaution and the TTG is doing a great job with mitigating the situation and not blowing it out of proportion. like i said, we might have lost respect for SP, but we shouldn't hate the man.


to "a not-so-faitful musician":

thanks for the response. i hope and pray this will be handled with the utmost care and that we will see this through.


to "disillusioned member"

i don't know about the rest, but for me, my only driving force that is keeping me in ministry is the passion i have to serve God and not the church. The church might go through tough times like this, but if your focus is right you will still find it a joy to serve despite trying times like this (and pastors & leaders that are still trying to influence you otherwise). but thats just me. i know others have reasons, such as "i can't serve because it is under SP's ministry and what is the point of serving under his guidance and cover". but the reason i gave earlier is my personal belief, but that is just my conviction. neither is right nor wrong.

Anonymous said...

I like to thank CT for their response to my comments on "misrepresentation."

I apologize for creating the impression in my post that CT in its main blog has alleged misrepresentation on the part of SP/CIM/CC in the application of CIM for NECF membership. I do not intend to do so, but it was my wrong choice of words that created the impression. My apologies. Further down from the offending sentence, I did clearly take issue with the commentors who did assert such misrepresentation, which is confirmed by later comments.

Please allow me to clarify myself in this regard. I do not think I will persuade everyone or maybe anyone. Please do respond and show where I am mistaken, but please I do ask you (not CT) to be civil and courteous and not be condescending (like "Come on, let's smell the coffee ...").

I premise my comments by giving people, including SP, the benefit of doubt. That said, I agree wholeheartedly with CT in raising the question of "misrepresentation." I think they should pursue the matter diligently as this is an issue of importance.

If it be possible, could CT post the letter of Oct 9 from NECF in its entirety, so that we can determine for ourselves from their response whether they felt a misrepresentation was made on the part of SP/CIM/CC in their application.

With the present facts and gaps before us now, "Is there misrepresentation?" Maybe, possibly, but honestly, I have to say I don't know.

Neither am I implying the NECF was careless in their approving the initial application.

In fact, I was surprised that CIM was even accepted as a member of NECF. From their website, there are only two types of ordinary members: legally constituted churches and Christian organizations registered with ROS/ROC etc.

Even if CIM was presented as an extended ministry of CC, or as part of CC, I can't see how CIM can be accepted as a member. Only churches can be admitted as members and not ministries or departments of churches. All other organizations must be registered with ROS/ROC etc.

I don't think NECF have a rule against "personal ministries." If such ministries are duly registered with ROC/ROS(whether it is possible or not, is beside the point), there is no bar, it seems for ministries like CIM to be accepted as an NECF member.

I have tremendous respect for NECF, but that does not mean they may not have made a mistake here. (Please I am not implying they did). Unless I am mistaken, the person who handles membership applications is the secretary-general and not the chairman of NECF. I would suppose in an application involving the chairman, the latter would also recuse himself from being involved in the decision of the council/committee from final approval.

Is it possible that the chairman is not fully aware of the provisions of NECF with regards to membership? Especially if he is not a full-time chairman, but is serving in an "honorary" capacity? He too is not infallible, I would submit.

Smell A Rat said...

This Anonymous guy (2.51 pm) sounds like "Why so Long," or "Index finger"....same style, same way of talking, like he/she is actually trying to be fair & neutral, etc.

He/she is trying to put doubts on NECF's credilbility....

watch out..he's speaking with a forked tongue!

Anonymous said...

To "NO MORE RESPECT FOR SP!"

I am sorry I disagree with you even though I understand your feelings of hurt and pain.

I quote from 1 Thessalonians 5:12 We ask you, brothers, to respect those who labor among you and are over you in the Lord.

I believe God would have us to respect the office even when we may feel personally disappointed with the leader.

Peter in 1 Pet 2:18 says, "Servants, be subject to your masters with all respect, not only to the good and gentle but also to the unjust."

I know Peter is speaking about slaves and masters, but surely the principle of respect holds.

Jesus and Paul "respected" the office of the high priest in their respective trials.

The archangel "respected" the devil even he he rebuked him the name of the Lord.

Jude 1:8-9 Yet in like manner these people also, relying on their dreams, defile the flesh, reject authority, and blaspheme the glorious ones. 9 But when the archangel Michael, contending with the devil, was disputing about the body of Moses, he did not presume to pronounce a blasphemous judgment, but said, "The Lord rebuke you."

The office of pastor is God-ordained and deserves respect even when we feel the person holding that office disappoints.

Anonymous said...

To "Smell A Rat"

Yes, I do wish to be fair and neutral, and may I ask what's wrong with that?

No, I am not trying to put doubts of NECF's credibility (if only you know how much I respect the leadership of NECF!)

To accuse me of speaking with a forked tongue is most unkind and un-Christian.

I respect you as a Christian brother or sister and I ask you to extend me the same courtesy.

Anonymous said...

I wish to expressed my appreciation to CT for bringing up the issues of importance with regards to our church. I know it has not been an easy job.

I also thank them and others who have responded to my comments with courtesy and respect even when we disagree.

What I am deeply disappointed and saddened are those remarks that appear to villify me. I am a member of the body of Christ as they are as well. To say such hurtful things damages our Christian witness in a public forum.

CT says "Note: In your comments and feedback, please refrain from using hateful, malicious or vulgar words. Always be respectful of one another."

I hope all of us be mindful of our words.

God's Word said...

This is God's Word to pastors ...

1 Peter 5:2

Be shepherds of God's flock that is under your care, serving as overseers—not because you must, but because you are willing, as God wants you to be; not greedy for money, but eager to serve ...

There are many other verses like that ...

Anonymous said...

Dear CT,

I note that you have added revised comments in your main blog. I thank you for that. Unless I am mistaken below is the revised comments:

"We wonder what was the basis for that assumption. If it is because of a document or representation given by CIM or Calvary Church at the time of application, then it can be inferred that a misrepresentation had taken place. If no such misrepresentation had been made, then NECF may have been careless in approving CIM's membership in 2003. We doubt that NECF was careless and we believe that they were somehow "misled" or "misinformed". It may be interesting to note that SP was the Chairman of NECF when CIM became a member. As the Chairman, SP should know the NECF membership criteria and the ineligibility of CIM to be a member of NECF."

It appears that you have proposed two possible scenarios in the matter of CIM's application, and have opted to believe in the first. That, I suppose, is your right to do so. I have no argument with that. However, I do take objection to the alternative, that NECF was careless, an alternative, you seems to dismiss. I think that the word "careless" is a loaded and emotive word, and may not be that helpful.

May there be a third alternative, that there was an "honest" oversight (I don't imply it to be a mere technical oversight. The matter is more serious than that). As I say unless more is revealed -- perhaps actual documents sighted -- I have to say I am not as certain as you are.

Part of your argument seems to hinge on the fact the SP ought to know the conditions of NECF membership being chairman. However, you have not shown that he was indeed aware and intend to mislead.

Maybe he did, but unless you can show more evidence and/or better argument, I have to say I have yet to be persuaded.

Anonymous said...

Dear Liza,

I agree with you and feel for you. The BOD/SP should have the courtesy to reply to your 14(!) page letter, and perhaps much pain and hurt may have been avoided.

Even if they decide not to respond to you in detail, point by point, at the very least, they should give you the reasons why in formal response.

Dear SP/BOD it is not too late to respond, is it?

Anonymous 2.25

Honestly said...

To anonymous,

I truly admired your sound mind. Good point & well put. Without concrete proof to show that SP was indeed & intend to mislead NECF, all bad remarks on SP are nothing but mere false accusation. Unless CT/TTG can produce concrete documents & proofs.

I'm open to concrete proofs. Without it, I have to say I have yet to be persuaded too.

Anonymous said...

Dear "Honestly"

Thank you for you comments. But I do think that imputing "mere false accusation" on the part of CT/TTG is unfair, unless you are really referring the "bad remarks" by the other commenters. Even then, I will have to say "mere false accusation" too strong a word to use. I would merely say that I think they are mistaken and/or I simply disagree with their judgments on the matter.

NECF, pls defend yrself said...

Dear Secretary-general of NECF..if u are reading our blog, I hope you will quickly clear all this doubts that some people have on you as they are now trying to say NECF was careless to approve CIM's application to be under NECF. This is their way of saying that it is not SP's mistake but it is your mistake,since you would normally be the one to sign such applications. To me, it is merely excuses and justifications by ppl who want to think the best of SP and who have to resort to blaming other parties for mistakes or intentional/deliberate actions he has done. SP shud be accountable for his own misdoings and I think it is wrong that some ppl, in an effort to be 'neutral and fair' would rather blame you than SP.

Anonymous said...

I doubt that the NECF secretary-general, past or present, would post here, as there is not way to verify if it is really him. And it may not be NECF policy to participate in a blog such as this.

I would suggest that CT and/or Hong Meng write to NECF officially to clarify the matter. Whether they will respond to such a request, I cannot be certain.

NECF, pls defend yrself said...

Oh..I m not expecting him to post here,but when he does read the comments under this article, at least he will know what he should do as he wouldn't want to take the blame for something that SP has done. To me, there are ppl who are still not able to accept that SP is a sinful unrepentant man although there are more and more evidences to proof so. I wonder what it will take before some of u finally see the true person that SP really is. May God take away the scales from the eyes of those who have been deceived by SP...

Anonymous said...

Party Pooper to Truth Prevails
"I must admit I am surprised that Dr. Cho is also accepted by this group! Is there no justice in A/G? This is enough to make me wanna leave A/G forever!".

Pls. don't!! Its Cho thats yoking the pupils (Hinn, Hickey, Johnson, Guneratnam etc) He is the MENTOR,
________________________________________-
Baton Rouge, Louisiana “Shake the Nations”, Dr David Yonggi Cho’s 2008 International Church Growth Conference is expected to be this year’s biggest and most influential Charismatic event in the United States. For more than 40 years, Dr Cho’s life and ministry have shattered the status quo and the way we “do church.”...

This event is Dr. Cho’s annual conference, which is usually held at the Yoido Full Gospel Church in Seoul, South Korea, ... The conference will take place October 8th through 10th, 2008 and is being hosted by the Bethany World Prayer Center in Baton Rouge, Louisiana.
_________________________________

capiche?

Honestly said...

To Anonymous,

Got your message & totally agree with your correction on my my wrong. You are really good with your writings. Keep it up.

Anonymous said...

Bait and Switch "Thinker" to LL
re: open letter'to BOD, dated 18 Sept 08 untitled :Questions Unanswered at the EGM (in BLOG ARCHIVE SEPT 08 )

CIM is designed to be built to bilk not only CC (as usual using CC as a platform) but also to be a prosperity gravy gospel train. Each time SP attends and speaks at whether at Conferences or at churches/venues overseas He is FULLY PAID.

Now just imagine these "megachurch evangelists" ala rock stars shake the 50,000 plus at the auditorium by exhorting in the name of our Lord and "shake the nations" gospel by shaking the wallets and purses beside the >US$100 admittance and registration fees. Thats the Hook. The bait for SP is CCC at the conference where he speaks. Cash cow is epf (ever providing, not necessary prosperous, faithful).

If you were SP and cohorts will you want to let go of this gravy train i.e. CIM. All funds are sidetrack i.e the SWITCH.

Definitely not. Does that answer all your questions and ours to-date.

Thats why it beggars my imagination and why IRS should go after these scoundrels using immoral tactics and non-taxable loopholes.

By holding the conference in US they will meet their Waterloos

my observations said...

I have checked at the back issues of the Berita NECF and noticed this :-

1. SP was Chairman even in 2000 maybe earlier still...(didn't check later issues)

2. CIM established and launched in CC on 8 Sept 2002. (about 2 years after he is Chairman, maybe longer)

3. CIM accepted as member by NECF somewhere around June or July 2003. If June is 9 months later, if July then 10 mths later, after the establishment of CIM)

Question is :-

1. What was he as Chairman for, if he don't know organisation policy. No where I read that he was Honorary Chairman. If he cannot serve "full-time" then let someone who can do the job. That's what I see in him now, just interested in "gathering" big titles but not capable of doing the job - if you were to excuse him because he is serving as "honorary" capacity only.

2. Why did he establish CIM first without ensuring the "legality" of that ministry? Is it possible that he or those "working" for him on this, overlooked the legitimacy of this ministry when opening bank account/s.

3. Why only register with NECF after almost at least 6 months later? They tell us that the church don't function like a corporate company but it does not sound right to establish a "body" first then only put up papers to officially file in a registration. What if it does not get registered - then what? Like in this case, it would seem like his instruction to his "workers" would be - "get it registered, by hook or by crook".

His style of doing things don't change even from 2002 till now. Use whatever means to get "my will" across. Same as EGM, the BOD paid thousands of our church money to get the external auditor and lawyer to tell us CIM is his personal ministry, because SP blame the BOD for willingly giving him the RM200k each year. So are we all surprised now he blame NECF for CIM's existence? He is very smart - very good at using and then got problem - discarding (in this case disowning) people.

sly like snake said...

exactly..tis sp was necf chairman for not just 1 yr but for few yrs,so dont tell me he doesnt know the core n basic rules of necf. tat fella alwiz pretend to play dumb but he is like snake,sly and scheming.more like necf gen secretary was tricked by tis sp.for those who want concrete proof..i tired to tell u all tat if tis isnt proof enuf,then u beter just wait til police go to sp's house and handcuff him.tat shud b proof enuf for u ppl

Anonymous said...

To BOD and Pastors especially those with their wools removed from their eyes.

Do not FEAR SP, he is a mere mortal just like Cho, for in doing so you are excluding yourselves from The Love of God and the Body of Christ.

Dear Father we TTG and supporters pray for our brothers and sisters who are in a dilemma. We pray that You will engulf them with your love and suffuse them with an obedient spirit that they will yield to You and You only in TOTAL obedience. In Jesus name we pray.

Anonymous said...

Father we also pray that you will continue to give us the wisdom to discern, the courage to blog and suffuse us with love to love others that have wronged us and forgive us if we have transgressed or wrong or hurt those innocents, SP's family and fellow calvarites. In Jesus name we pray. Amen. Amen.

Anonymous said...

To "my observations"

As I understand it, all Council Members of NECF, including the chairman are "honorary" officers for lack of better term. They provide oversight and leadership for the work of NECF. NECF has full-time staff members under the secretary-general who are responsible for the daily operations of the organization.

Unless I am mistaken, Council members do not know all the fine points/details at their finger-tips; they depend on the staff to to do the detail work.

Let me pursue this line of argument and tell me if this a fair inference. I note that SP is still listed as Advisor to NECF on their website, which means that he is still in good standing with NECF. If he had deceived/misled/misrepresented to NECF in the matter CIM's application for membership, would not the Council remove him as Advisor? Conversely, may not I infer that because he is still the NECF Advisor, he did not do anything wrong that merits the charge of "misrepresentation"? You be the judge.

Anonymous 2.25

Blame Game said...

Ho HUm! This is getting tiring!~ yawn!

SP is a master at deceit...
1. He USEs people and Discards them when they are no longer useful for his purposes or when they become a threat to his plans,
2. He ABUSES his position, whether as SP of Calvary or Chairman of NECF, Council of Churches or WAGRA, to consolidate his position and his nest-egg,
3. He MISUSES his influence to further his own evil schemes to build the GuneRATnam Dynasty

AND Who gets the blame? BOD? NECF? TTG? CT? PO?

Anonymous said...

to "sly like snake"

SP is also surrounded by GOONeratS, but also smart and wily gooneRATs that has continually not only outnumbered/outbeefed/outmuscled but also outsmart us all the ways.

No Problem. God is with us TTG.

sly like snake said...

anon 6.26..amen..ur rite.anon 2.25 sounds like 1 of them..me no eye see oredi

my observations said...

Anonymous, you sure sound like one in the know. Unlike us, we need time to look at back issues, read from here and there, then only blog but you got it all in your finger tips. Hard to believe you are not a FULL TIME CHRISTIAN WORKER. Maybe you from NECF, that's why you know exactly how they work.

Hello my friend, it does not matter whether got misrepresentation or not, whether he know the daily operations or not, the point is, if he want the big title, then he must stand up for any "mistakes" made (whether he aware or not) because he put his big name as CHAIRMAN.

If he does not have ulterior motives in registering CIM with NECF, how come he did not register with AG council? Now I understand why...Because NECF only got "honorary" officers (and for the lack of better words) easier to dupe, because all busy people, no time to double check the applications and the full time worker (so kucy miow) dare not recommend to reject the CHAIRMAN'S PERSONAL MINISTRY. Thanks... now I understand...

same ol' same ol' said...

Anonymous at 2.25pm, come on now, we are not talking about detailed rules and regulations of the NECF rule book. This is simple,basic ABC of the NECF world. Who can join and who cannot join. If SP as an advisor does not even know the ABCs of NECF, why bother being an advisor? NECF should fire him as he failed to meet the obligations of being a good advisor. They are just giving him face for now as like how you put it, SP is using the old 'But the dog made me do it' excuse to justify why he did not know personal ministries were not allowed to be signed up under NECF. Seriously, can he pls come up with a better excuse this time? It's getting old.

For what? said...

It is very depressing to hear about all this "honorary" officers who only provide oversight and not work full time etc etc. As an ordinary christian, I am beginning to wonder what is all this christian organisations for.

NECF officers only honorary- whatever that means. Is it only an avenue for so called christian leaders to collect titles so that hey can go around boasting to family and friends that they are officers of this and that christian organisation?

AG Council I read earlier somewhere, cannot act unless invited to. How come they don't need invitation to give out big titles but need invitation to seriously take care of God's house/s and God's people. What are the Councils for?

SM said...

Anonymous said to CT 'Part of your argument seems to hinge on the fact the SP ought to know the conditions of NECF membership being chairman. However, you have not shown that he was indeed aware and intend to mislead"

Wow, how on earth can someone prove that another person has knowledge or no knowledge or intend to mislead. Even if SP call TTG ppl and say that he intended to mislead, TTG ppl will not be able to prove to you.

Anyway, if a chairman don't know the membership guidelines of his organisation, then he shouldn't be the chairman. It is such basic stuff. Even if he is so ignorant, when the board discusses approval of new members, won't it occur to him to ask about the membership requirements. An idiot also know how to ask. SP is such a brilliant man and you make him seem so stupid. Give him credit, man.

Anonymous said...

Dear "my observations"

As I stated in my first posts, who I am should be of no consequence, and I have reasons to maintain my anonymity. I only asked to be judged by the content of my words.

If CT wishes to verify that I am a bona fide Calvarite, I will be glad to do so as a matter of accountability and they agree allow me maintain my anonymity here on this blog. Just give me a name and contact number to call.

I do not know why SP did not register with the AG Council. Maybe because the AG recognizes only churches, social works, bible schools and national departments? I am not aware of any "evangelistic ministries" personal or otherwise registered with AG Council. As a matter of fact, the AG Council is made up of "honorary" officers with full-time staff members much like NECF. But as to why SP did not register with AG Council I confess I simply do not know.

As I have stated earlier even if CIM is part of CC, I can't see CIM meeting the membership requirements of NECF. Only if CIM is registered with ROC/ROS can CIM be a member, in my opinion. Of course, I could be wrong, but do check the membership criteria at the NECF website.

The way I see it, CIM has limited options to move forward -- register with ROC, and then seek membership with NECF, register with AG Council (if it is not already so registred?), give up its independent/personal ministry status and be an extended ministry of CC, or simply dissolve it.

If I am asked (not that I ever would), my advice to SP is simply dissolve CIM and revert the funds back to CC Missions.

Anonymous 2.25

Anonymous said...

Dear "For what?"

Unless I am mistaken, most Christian organizations, like NECF, CCM, CFM, Wycliff, as well as Bible schools have governing boards and councils consisting of "honorary" elected officers. These "officers" have their own full-time ministries as pastors, etc elesewhere. The daily operations are carried out by full-time staff led by executive full-time officer(s). The board or council members are normally not paid and contribute their time and energy voluntarily because they believe in the work on the organization where they serve.

Anonymous 2.25

Tan Sri ain't stupid said...

Anonymous 2.25

Even if the honorary elected officer are not paid and contribute their time voluntarily, they should still know the basics of what NECF caters to. Eventhough I am not a pastor or BOD or church staff of CC, but I know the criterias needed to become a church member of CC. So maybe the SP you are refering to is not the same SP from CC since the Tan Sri we know is not as dumb as that.

Anonymous said...

To SM,

I suppose one way (there may be others) is to show that SP in the application form and/or letter to NECF state that CIM is part of CC when it is not which would be "proof" to reasonable minds that there is intent to mislead. That would be a smoking gun. I am sure there may be other ways to show intent.

Anonymous 2.25

Anonymous said...

Dear "Tan Sri ain't stupid"

I guess we could argue till the cows come home on whether he ought to know, or not; or whether he is smart or stupid (I am being facetious here, no offense intended) and get nowhere. That I believe is besides the point.

I need reasonable proof to show that there is intent to mislead (or SP comes out and say, Yes, I am sorry, but I intend to mislead) to be persuaded.

All else are mere speculations on your part and mine as well.

Anonymous 2.25

SM said...

To all Anonymouses,

Can you guys select 'Name/URL' and type in a name. Don't use Anonymous. Any name you like so that the readers don't get confused. I, so smart (pride dwells in every man and woman..hee..hee)also get confused.

Tan Sri ain't stupid said...

Anonymous 2.25

If the only way that will make you believe that SP deliberately deceived CIM is for SP himself to admit it, then sorry la, that's not going to happen. If SP were to admit to something like that, he will lose his reputation, his status, his credibility. He's way too proud to want to do something like that.

How about seeing it this way? If SP did not intend to deceive ppl into thinking CIM is part of CAlvary Church, then why did he name it Calvary International Ministries? If it is a personal ministry, it should be named Prince Guneratnam International Ministries. We as Calvary Church do not derive any benefit at all from CIM, so why name it after Calvary? I rest my case

Anon 2.25 said...

Dear SM,

Thank you for your suggestion. I chose to post Anonymously because I thought I would only make one post and be done away with it (sigh). I have been a silent reader before that first post.

I can't think of a suitable moniker, so I guess I will settle for Anon 2.25.

Sorry to get you confused.

Ah Lian said...

Dear Anonymous 2.25

I agree with you on your advice to SP, but in my case, even if I'm not asked, my advice to SP is simply dissolve CIM and return the funds to CC Missions.

SP, the funds were never never never meant for CIM in the first place, so never never never try to keep them.

SP, CIM is your biggest nightmare although you must have envisioned it to be your greatest achievement.

SP, this is probably one of the mysteries of God when he chooses what is "nonsense in the world" to make the wise (at least those who think they are) feel ashamed.

SP, my brotherly advice to you is: let go of CIM. It must die so that you will live.

SP, CIM will continue to be your nightmare if you don't bury it.

SP, don't let others bury it. You must do it yourself because you were its creator.

SP, please remember what is not from God will not last.

Take up the cross and follow Jesus Christ once again, and you will live...eternally.

Ah Beng No. 2 said...

I support SM. Instead of anonymouses,use another moniker.

In my case, I choose Ah Beng No.2 because there's already another Ah Beng before me. But that Ah Beng said I'm the NIV (New Improved Version) so I have continued to blog under Ah Beng No. 2.

To avoid all the confusion as to who is who, I suggest everyone uses a moniker.

If you don't mind, you can use Ah Beng No. 3 and so on so forth. I don't think the original Ah Beng would mind! Anyway, there's already Ah Lian and Ah Heng on board.

Ah Gee said...

You're right, Ah Beng No.2. This way, we don't get confused especially when we blog in the wee hours of the morning.

Anon 2.25 said...

Dear "Tan Sri ain't stupid"

I am not as skeptical as you seem that there may be no "proof" forthcoming one way or the other. Please note that I am not defending or accusing him. I am simply saying I don't know for now ... not so satisfactory, I know, but that's life.

You raised an interesting question - why CIM and on PGIM? Again I confess I don't know. Has anyone asked him?

Earlier I said, way back in 2002 I asked in my heart, "Why CIM at all?" Somehow, deep inside me, warning bells rang. But I kept quiet. Then and now, I feel that a personal ministry like CIM makes more sense only after SP's retirement. To be the SP of a megachurch and founder/president of an evangelistic ministry does not mix well (that's only my opinion -- unexpressed in 2002).

Simpleman said...

Dear Anon 2.25,

I don't think a personal ministry like CIM makes more sense after SP's retirement. It still doesn't because it can still be perceived to be part of CC, as he was once upon a time SP of CC.

PGIM is better. And why not???

Anon 2.25 said...

Dear Simpleman,

Point taken. Anyway, I was not suggesting a name, just the type of ministry.

Yes, PGIM may be more recognizable worldwide than CIM. Agreed. So why not?

Ah Lian said...

Taking a leaf from Simpleman and Anon 2.25, my simple advice to you SP is, let go of CIM. If you don't it will continue to be your NIGHTMARE, and that will eventually spell your DOWNFALL.

Bury it and maybe God will resurrect your personal ministry as PGIM.

SP, CIM is not only your worst NIGHTMARE but it has brought headaches, heartaches, backaches, stomachaches, and many other types of aches to your sheep, many of whom are slowly but surely being scattered and have found good shepherds in other churches.

And when that happens, don't blame others and bemoan the empty seats in CC. More seats will be emptied if you continue to hold on to CIM because it's TAINTED by ___________ SP, I'm sure you can fill in the rest.

No Longer Blind said...

To: Annoymous @ 3.05pm 17 November

You gave a detailed account why we must respect our pastors. To recap you also stated "The office of pastor is God-ordained and deserve respect even when we feel the person holding that office disppoints."

You are overly gracious, but it is not so simple as that because respect has to be earned, we do not just respect a person for his position.

It is not just a matter of feeling disappointed with the pastor, it is because the pastor is falling short of the standards that God intended for His servants and which is required of the pastor.

If we just respect our pastors blindly even when they fall short of God's expectations, isn't that condoning the wrong conduct and closing one eye. What would non believers think? What kind of a message are you giving to the outside world? Isn't it making a mockery of our faith? Are you saying the Church's standards can be even lower than the worldly standards? Strange isn't it? Isn't God a holy God and He has set the standards for His servants to live Godly and holy lives?

So what kind of examples are our pastors setting for us in Calvary Church? Just pretend everything is fine when it is not! Just show respect because of the office the pastor is holding?

We must not be deceived anymore. God gave us the Holy Spirit to discern what is right from what is wrong. We are no longer blind. Thank God for His leading.

Anon 2.25 said...

Dear "No Longer Blind"

Thank you for comments. Let me respond to some of your concerns.

I still stand by what I said about respecting our leaders/pastors.

As for being gracious, I don't think we can be overly gracious as Christians. All our speech should be salted with grace.

However, showing respect to keaders does not mean that we should be blind to their faults and failings. It certainly does not mean that we keep quiet.

Sorry to use another biblical example, but when David sinned, Nathan the prophet confronted him strongly, but I believe, with respect to his office as king.

I believe we have every right to call SP to account what we perceive as failings/sins/lies whatever you may want to call it.

However, we should do so with humility, respect and love, yes, even gentleness. Name-calling especially in anger does no one any good. I remind myself constantly like everyone else I am a sinner saved by grace and needs to be forgiven on a daily basis (the Lord's Prayer).

As responsible members of the church we must hold our leaders and shepherds accountable for their actions and example (or lack thereof), but I don't think the Lord has set us to a judge over anyone's character since only He sees the heart, not us. Please don't call someone, anyone, esp a man of God with "blanket" condemning words like liar, deceitful, etc which I believe is simply not right and un-Christian. Let us speak the truth in love.

MH said...

Dear Faithful Musician,

I’m glad that you are still able to serve as a musician joyfully even when you do not agree with what SP or the BOD is doing. But can I just point out that for those of us who, as a result of all that is happening in Calvary Church, chose to stop serving as a musician or in any ministry for that matter; it is definitely not because our focus is not right. My focus in being a musician for the past 10 years has always been to serve and please God, and God alone. After all, if the reason for any of us musicians to ‘drive to church on Wednesday nights after work for musicians practice and then wake up in the early hours of a Sunday morning to go to church for our sound check and to then spend the entire morning playing a musical instrument’ is not for God, then as what is mentioned in Ecclesiastes, it is all meaningless / vanity.

My deciding moment was during that fateful Sunday morning when I was playing on stage and one of the deacons then went up the stage to make the now infamous “malicious allegations” announcement to the whole church. That was when I was convicted in my heart that come EGM, if the BOD and Senior Pastor were still in denial of the Truth, I would not be able to go on being a musician and pretend that nothing is wrong / that all is well whilst I am serving – It is extremely difficult to play joyfully after our Senior Pastor preaches sermons which, more often than not, seem to be meant to condemn those who question rather than to encourage God’s people spiritually. Like it or not, even if we are ultimately serving God, Senior Pastor is the one whom we are serving UNDER since he is after all, the Senior Pastor of Calvary Church.

That being said, this is also just my personal conviction and if God wants you to keep serving Him as a musician in Calvary Church, please continue doing so :)

God Bless

Mission OTM said...

I agree fully with SM and the rest that we should henceforth avoid using anonymous as identity. Use any unique name to maintain your uniqueness yet anonymity.

We must be readily agree to disagree. More importantly to always seek Truth and reveal truth. Do not conceal the truth and mislead others. You will be held accountable for withholding the truth.

respect who???? said...

Anon 2.25

1. Will you respect a thief?
2. will you respect a liar?
3. Will you respect a covetous man?
4. Will you respect a fallen angel?

respect who???? said...

Anon 2.25
Maybe you should:

1. disrespect honesty!
2. disrespect integrity!
3. disrespect truth!
4. disrespect transparency!
5 disrespect credibility!
6 disrespect good governance

Anon 2.25 said...

Dear "repect who???"

Even if my father is convicted for theft, I still honor him as my father.
Even if my mum lies to a friend about her child, I still love, honor, respect her as my mother.
Even if my brother covets my new car, I still own him as brother and respect him if he is the elder.
Even if my sister falls into sin, she is still my sister and I will still respect for being my elder sister.

I do not respect them for their thefts, lies, covetousness nor sins, but they are my family and deserves my love and respect.

SP may have failed me, but he is still my pastor. When I greet him, I still sincerely call him "Pastor."

Have you not stolen, lied, coveted, or fallen before? I know I have but I also know I have been forgiven.

No more respect for SP said...

I concur with "respect who???"...

respect has to be earned! You cannot demand respect - if you are an authoritarian figure & you insist that I respect you, I will show respect outwardly but my heart wil despise you if your behaviour, conduct & conversation are not worthy of my respect...

sly like snake said...

hi anon2.25...i think the key word is repentance...if sp repents, we wil respect him for tat. but he hasnt and stil so proud and oso not showing church ppl respect coz he call us faithless..so how u expect us to respect him??? i never feel any love or respect fr him oso,so wat for i respect him esp since he so stuborn n trying to ask us to jump into lake and watever. i cannot n wil not respect person like tis.but i respect u for being so bighearted abt it

thinker said...

... respect so as long as one does not betray the office/calling ... btw this has nothing to do with SP but rather anon 2.25 way of thinking ... love, well that's a different matter all together ... aren't we call or rather commanded to love our enemies? ...

Anon 2.25 said...

Dear "No more respect for SP"

Should SP demand respect from me, I will tell him with as much humility as I can muster, "Pastor, you have lost your right to command respect."

But I will still respect him and his office for Christ's sake who died for us all and who ordained him to his office.

thinker said...

Someone quoted 1 Peter 5:2 earlier ... "Be shepherds of God's flock that is under your care, serving as overseers—not because you must, but because you are willing, as God wants you to be; not greedy for money, but eager to serve ..."

If a pastor fails the above, then he/she no longer is true to his/her calling .... love the person? Yes. Respect him/her as a pastor? No.

No more respect for SP said...

I concur with "no longer blind,"

Anonymous's statement does not hold water: "The office of pastor is God-ordained and deserve respect even when we feel the person holding that office disppoints."

The office of pastor is GOd-ordained, that's true, BUT those holding this office are required to obey God and to follow God's standards of Truth, Transparency & Accountability, & not his own standards. Anytime God's standards are violated we are not morally bound to still respect the violators....rather, we are morally bound to correct the offending pastor who has fallen and if he repents we are morally bound to restore that fallen brother.

Is this so hard for you to understand, Anonymous?

thinker said...

... and btw, not respecting is not equivalent to throwing mud at a person or condemning him/her, especially when there is no real evidence/proof but just talk ...

respect who???? said...

Anon 2.25
Yes, you are right we have stolen, lied, coveted and fallen before.

My questions?????
1. Has SP confessed that he lied???
2. Has SP confessed that he plundered the RM1.9 MILLIONs from Mission without the members knowledge???
3. Has SP confess on the transfer of designated funds to his personal ministry???

And SP is getting all the respect from you as he merrily continues to plunder
And you are the cause of his of sinful living cos SP got all the respect from people like you

SE-mak said...

Honestly speaking, i chose to ignore and skip every comment by the name 'anonymous', to me, anonymous is nobody, hence, he/she is nobody writing about 'nothing'.
they are not sincere--at least to me.

I Smell a rat said...

Ahem! Like I said before....I smell a rat! Anonymous 2.25 is one of the GuneRATnam's henchmen...imagine insisting that we should respect a liar, a thief, a betrayer & a covetor who has compromised his noble office?!!

Anon 2.25 said...

Dear all concerning respect:

I believe I understand your pain, hurt, and anger. I too feel pained, hurt, and angry.

But I cannot allow these feelings to define me. And I truly hope that these do not define you as well.

I get the feeling that we are speaking of different kinds of respect. Yes, I am deeply disappointed in many things I see in SP and will tell him so if I believe that he will listen to me.

It is true that the scriptures command our leaders to show the true shepherd heart, love and care for the flock. But I also seem to read the same scriptures commanding us to love, honor and respect our leaders always and not just when they seem to have earned our respect.

I believe we can respect the pastor in his office AND deeply respect when he earns it. I am pleading for the first and awaits the second.

I think I can do the first for Christ's sake and the second even more if/when the time comes. Love hopes.

Anon 2.25 said...

Dear "I Smell a rat"

I truly do not know what to say to you ... sorry.

Sigh sigh said...

Dear all,

Looks like you wasted alot of your time, effort, energy and 'ching sern' to answer to all the anonymous comments.

Looks like they are employed to sit at the computer responding diligently.

No need to study or to take care of their family.

Dont waste your time lah.

Dont fret over it.

Spend it on better things lah.

No Longer Blind said...

To : Anon 2.25

You sound very supportive and truly gracious to "failing pastors"..why say "what we perceive as failing/sins/lies whatever you may call it" When it is a wrongdoing just call it that why say "perceive" it to be so? This terminology sounds very familiar among CC leaders and pastors!

We find CC leaders/supporters give so many excuses and asking dissenting members to show "humility, respect, love and even gentleness" but does SP or BOD and pastors display the same characteristics to dissenting members who speak up?

On the one hand you say we must speak up and on the other hand you seem to give blind support. Why? It is rather confusing and misleading isn't it? If we stand for the truth we do not need to fear or try to justify right?

No, we are not judging but stating obvious happenings (kindly note not every statement or comment given in CT is out of anger or disrespect) but we are exercising discernment in all things. Please do not generalise as such.

The Lord has given us the Holy Spirit to test and to discern the true shepherds from the false ones.

You are right character is very important! But when a pastor has serious character flaws you mean we just accept it, don't "judge him" God knows and it is good enough...just be loving and gentle, be submissive and respect him just because of his office of appointment.

I am seriously very concerned if that is the way we should respond!

thinker said...

... allow me to be specific ...

... there is more than enough evidence to indicate that the leadership of SP is too much based on the world's corporate style ... there is a lack of transparency and the sphepherd's heart is definitely missing ... in this respect, the leadership (including the BOD) must once again embrace the church as the Body of Jesus and not an organisation to be managed .... people's life matters, not programmes, meetings, events and numbers ... and yes, God has poured out His Spirit and speaks to ALL and not just to some selected few in the church ...

... however as to all the alleged cheating, liaring, deceving, etc... well, the evidence is less than convincing ...

... so how? ... a good approach is for SP to take a break (1 - 2 years) and allow the church/BOD to reconstruct the Constitution to allow for a more participative, transparent and accountable form of church government ... have fresh elections to appoint men and women of God into leadership (btw can be existing BOD members) ... return to the call of being spheperds ...

Tan Sri ain't stupid said...

constitution review committee needs to have an equal amount of SP supporters and TTG members. BOD, pls don't just elect back yr own ppl and SP's yes men (one good example: EL) to be in the committee. it is pointless if you do that. we also want you to include respectable TTG members like Bro Hong Meng and Bro KC for example. He's not stupid you see.He has had everything planned out from the start

Anon 2.25, I think one of the TTG members did ask them abt the PGIM name during EGM (Pls correct me if i'm wrong,anyone) but no answer was given for that. The answer is obvious though. If SP named it PGIM from the start, he will not have been able to register it under NECF. He will not be able to use CC's resources to do CIM's work.

Tan Sri ain't stupid said...

typo error: "He's not stupid you seee. He has had everything planned out from the start" is for 2nd para after "He will not be able to use CC's resources to do CIM's work."

stay on course said...

Hello all, enough of discoursing with Anon 2.25. Same as all other Anons that have come on every post, they just want to redirect the thoughts of readers to talking non-issues. They are afraid more poeple will write more substancial matters. What he /she thinks is not important to us all and certainly not going to help us move one inch further. So enough with Anon 2.25. Almost 30 comments just addressing him/her - too much wasted on him/her and we got no where - still want us to respect SP. Please everyone, don't entertain any more of these Anonymous. Get back to issues here and stay on course.

NeNe said...

KUALA LUMPUR: Petrol and diesel will be sold 15sen cheaper per litre from Tuesday onwards following the Government’s decision to lower fuel prices in tandem with the downward trend of global oil prices.

The pump price of RON97 petrol will be RM2 a litre from RM2.15 while the retail price of RON92 petrol and diesel is RM1.90 a litre, Deputy Prime Minister Datuk Seri Najib Tun Razak said in a statement on Monday.

The new prices are effective from midnight Monday.

Praise God. At least we can rejoice over some good news in the midst of some much bad news on CIM & SP, etc, etc.

God is still good, all the time!

Honestly said...

Dear Anonymous 2.25,

I totally understood your point to show respect our Pastor, simply because the Bible simply taught us so. I believe we both share the same conviction in this matter.

I'm utterly as shock as you to see people calling names & judge SP as though all these people has the right to do so. From all these judging & name calling I discern that some of them does not share the same conviction from those who simply refuse to put down their judgmental view. Afterall, this is an open forum to everyone.

But somehow I wonder why, when all these people are disagreeing with you here. It seems like you are alone here defending what the Bible taught us. Let me be honest to my thinking.

I wonder where are those TT members who are called to establish Truth & Transparency. Where is Bro.Winslow who is eager to share his view on SP sunday message & correct SP mistake in his sermon, so choose to be silence here when seeing people twisting God's command to love & respect each other.

Where is KC, HM, & the rest of the older TTG who are more mature in God's Word are here to share their view on all these name calling. If they don't share their view on matters on judging SP, that's fine with me cause we know they already did. But calling SP "names"? None of they voice out to call for order.

Where is Karen the loving mother with a few kids? What's your stand on all these judging, name calling & refuse to submit to God's command to love 1 and another?

It just make me wonder if SP don't need our respect, does all these TTG earns my respect?

I do respect my SP cause his is God's ordained. I proud to put down my foot on this, not because he earns it or the constitution demands it. Simply because it is God's Word. Anyone who against it, I let God rebuke you in His own time. Those who are suppose to voice but choose to remain silent, I let God rebuke you in His own timing. Those who play a part in suggesting or any speculating without proofs, I let God rebuke you in His own timing.

Ah Beng No. 2 said...

Good news NeNe, and thanks for sharing, but let's refocus on TTG.

TTG also stands for The True God.

It is impossible for God to lie. Hebrews 6:18 (NKJ abbr.)

A God of truth and without injustice; righteous and upright is He. Deut. 32:4 (NKJ abbr.)

Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father (God) except through Me. If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; and from now on you know Him and have seen Him."

Philip said to Him, "Lord, show us the Father, and it is sufficient for us." Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip?

He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, 'Show us the Father'? Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works.

Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the sake of the works themselves." John 14:6-11 (NKJ)

(Jesus speaking out loud to the Father) "Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth." John 17:17 (NKJ)

It is the Spirit who bears witness, because the Spirit is truth. 1 John 5:6 (NKJ abbr.)

(Jesus speaking) "You judge according to the flesh; I judge no one. And yet if I do judge, My judgment is true; for I am not alone, but I am with the Father who sent Me." John 8:15-16 (NKJ))

"And if anyone hears My words and does not believe, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world. He who rejects Me, and does not receive My words, has that which judges him - the word (Truth) that I have spoken will judge him in the last day.

For I have not spoken on My own authority; but the Father who sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak. And I know that His command is everlasting life. Therefore, whatever I speak, just as the Father has told Me, so I speak." John 12:47-50 (NKJ)

But Jesus answered and said, It is written, "Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God."
Matt 4:4 (NKJ)

Jesus said: "He who rejects Me, and does not receive My words, has that which judges him - the word (Truth) that I have spoken will judge him in the last day. John 12:48 (NKJ)

informed 1st hand said...

I've been informed 1st hand that 'someone' would copy out the comments from this blog, especially the 'bad' comments, and email them to the pastors and bod. I really wonder why only the 'bad' comments???

Don't read said...

honestly, u sound like a previous self righteous commentor, kl boy....anyway, i rebuke u too for badmouthing the TTG members,i dont think u hv the right to do so.if u dont want to read the blog,dont read it.no one is forcing u to

Baffled mind said...

Bro. Hong Meng, with all these being said, can you please confirm with NECF what have they really done with CIM. And as highlighted by readers, what is NECF going to do with SP still being the Advisor to NECF? Will they still allow him to stay as Advisor when SP himself do not heed his own advise as what he wrote in the Berita NECF about Integrity? Can a man whose very own church does not support NECF (and sadly as CC members, we have never been informed and asked to participate in any NECF organised nation wide activities) be an Advisor of NECF? I wonder what his advise is all this while and how come the "honorary" officials never realised that CC and their own Advisor, has never been a part of their activities. It really baffles me.

Anon 2.25 said...

Dear "No longer Blind"

Why do I say "perceive"? I suppose I am not as certain as some that SP has done this or that as alleged. And it certainly does not help that SP is silent through much of this. Unless I am wrong, there are yet no thorough objective neutral investigations completed into many of these allegations.

As for the BOD/SP, they are not participating in this blog, so there isn't much I can say to them here.

I am sorry you find me confusing and misleading. I do say that we must speak up; I did not and do advocate blind support. I do say that the way we speak must exhibit Christian integrity as well as charity. Be bold, courageous in spite of difficulties. At the same time speak with kindness and love and humility.

I am sorry but I do not agree that we are "stating obvious hapenings" here; at least not everything is so obvious to me.

I did not nor intend to say every statement in CT is out of anger or disrespect. But surely you cannot deny there some, if not, much of it here.

I do not say we just accept his flaws, just be gentle, submissive and respectful.

But I do say that we need to speak out in fairness, truthfulness, gentleness, in love, in humility, in respect even in confrontation.

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