Saturday, November 15, 2008

CIM to be De-Registered by NECF (revised with additional comments 17-11-08)

Calvary International Ministries (CIM), the personal ministry of our Senior Pastor (SP), Rev Prince Guneratnam is to be de-registered by the National Evangelical Christian Fellowship (NECF) Malaysia as it does NOT meet the membership conditions of NECF’s constitution.

CIM was established on 8 September 2002 as a personal ministry of SP. It was and has never been a part of Calvary Church. It is definitely not an extended ministry of Calvary Church and does not come under the covering of our church. Hitherto, it has derived its legitimacy by being registered as a member of NECF.

At the church AGM in March this year, when Sis Liza posed several questions on CIM, SP has vehemently defended his personal ministry and declared that no-one has the right to question this ministry. At the recent EGM, a lawyer was brought in to establish the fact that CIM is a personal ministry and therefore, the RM1.9m that was transferred from the church missions fund to CIM over the last several years, cannot be claimed back by the church despite the fact that members’ approval has not been sought.

After the AGM, the TTG members investigated and discovered that the constitution of NECF does not allow the registration of personal ministries as a member. On 20 May 2008, Bro KC wrote to NECF for answers to several questions among which are to check if NECF is providing spiritual covering for CIM and if CIM is registered with them as personal ministry. Bro KC did not receive any reply from NECF but Bro Hong Meng, following up on Bro KC’s letter, was verbally informed by an official there that they had, all this while, thought that CIM was a part of Calvary Church and on that assumption, NECF had accepted CIM as a member. We wonder what was the basis for that assumption. If it is because of a document or representation given by CIM or Calvary Church at the time of application, then it can be inferred that a misrepresentation had taken place. If no such misrepresentation had been made, then NECF may have been careless in approving CIM's membership in 2003. We doubt that NECF was careless and we believe that they were somehow "misled" or "misinformed". It may be interesting to note that SP was the Chairman of NECF when CIM became a member. As the Chairman, SP should know the NECF membership criteria and the ineligibility of CIM to be a member of NECF.

Check out the July-Aug 2003 NECF newsletter at this website:
http://www.necf.org.my/index.cfm?&menuid=21. This fact of SP's Chairmanship in NECF and the announcement of CIM's membership are published in the newsletter. There is also an interesting article in the newsletter by SP on the moral integrity of the church leaders.

On 21 August 2008, Bro Hong Meng wrote to NECF to find out their plans now that it is an established fact that CIM is not part of Calvary Church. On 9 October 2008, NECF replied that “CIM does not meet the membership conditions of our (NECF) constitution and our (NECF) membership roll will be rectified accordingly”. We believe the de-registration of CIM as a member of NECF is in the due process or already done. Here, we must salute NECF for their “bravery” to take such affirmative steps to put things right.

The question that springs to mind now is what will likely happen to CIM? We are fearful that the balance money of almost RM1 million in CIM might be swiftly spent or taken out by SP. We are not so concerned with the RM400,000 left in CARED as the Board of Deacons, at the EGM, has stated that CARED and presumably, the money remaining therein, will become an extended ministry of the church. There were no plans to transfer CIM to church as an extended ministry. We understood then that SP had objected to this. In fact, when another member (the simple housewife) appealed to SP at the EGM to give all the balance RM1 million to the CCC building fund, SP had stood his ground and would not release the money.

Now, with this change in circumstances and if the money is still in CIM, it is quite likely that SP will have no choice but to move CIM to church as an extended ministry. This is the only way, CIM can be legitimate. It is the only way for CIM to maintain a bank account to hold its funds. It is the only way for CIM to continue as SP’s channel to raise money to fund his extensive traveling to attend seminars and conferences around the world. (In church circles, for preaching invitations, usually, the host church pays for the travel costs and usually, with love offering thrown in as well). It is the only way, CIM can be deemed as a religious organization to avoid becoming taxable as otherwise, all offerings and gifts received by CIM will become taxable.

DO NOT BE SURPRISED if this option of becoming an extended ministry of the church is taken by SP because we see it as the ONLY OPTION available to him. In plain language, he has NO CHOICE.

Of course, even after it is moved to church as an extended ministry, several questions still remain to be answered, which are:

1. The balance RM1 million in CIM may be liable to tax as it was accumulated during the period when it was “misrepresented” as a Christian organization under NECF. In fact, the entire RM1.9 million which was transferred from church to CIM may be taxable. It will be interesting if the taxman get wind of this.

2. What were the documents given to the banks for the opening of the bank accounts of CIM and CARED? If they were NECF membership documents and now that CIM is de-registered, will the balance money in the banks be frozen? If the banks return the money, who will the bank return the money to?

3. If misrepresentation has been made to NECF which resulted in CIM being accepted as a member, can criminal proceedings be instituted against the perpetrator? This is because, besides Calvary Church, some individuals and other churches may have given gifts to CIM in the belief that it is a legitimate Christian organisation under the umbrella of NECF.

Whatever unfolds over the next few days or weeks, we hope our dear SP and the Board of Deacons are well prepared to deal with the issues which may arise. Things seem to be heating up. Just to let you know, 2 Calvarites have boldly stepped forward and have informed us, in no uncertain terms, that they are prepared and ready to go to the authorities. All they are waiting for is our signal. Unbeknown to them, that has put a very heavy burden on the TTG “committee”. We are prayerfully, waiting on the Lord. Let’s all pray that it does not come to that.

God Bless.

557 comments:

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stay on course said...

Please everyone, don't entertain Anon 2.25 & honestly. Stay with our own discourse. Don't be side tracked and tempted into speaking out in anger and then being accused of no love in this blog. Please leave them alone.

sly like snake said...

sori sori...cant tahan tis Honestly fella...anyway u r rite..we let God rebuke him enuf la.back to more important issue...cim

Anon 2.25 said...

Dear friends, brothers and sisters,

I am calling it a night for now as it has been a long day. I want to thank all who have taken the trouble to respond to me even when we do not agree on everything, er, on many things.

I apologize for having dominated the discussion, maybe I should have listened to my inner voice and spouse and refrained from that first post. But now I think I have written all that I wish to write, and more, so I think I better stop, for now at least, lest I keep repeating myself.

I am saddened by some of the unkind words directed at me, but I hope I have not been unfair and unkind to anyone here. If I had, please forgive me.

I love my pastors, my church, my brothers and sisters in the Lord, whether in the TTG or otherwise, and like most of you I am deeply broken inside at what has happen to the church I had belong to for over 36 years.

I continue to pray and hope for happier days.

KC said...

I think that regardless of whether there is or no concrete evidence of SP's wrong-doings, he must assume full responsibility for the state our church is in today. The members are just unhappy at the way he has behaved and done things which may not be illegal but obbviously un-Christian. These acts may not be sufficient to get him sacked but if a sizeable group of the congregation has lost confidence and trust in him, then he should gracefully step down. He must realise that it is no longer tenable for him to remain as SP.

As the leader, he ought to resign as a personal sacrifice to save the church from disintegrating. It is the only noble thing for him to do. By disregarding all the adverse publicity around him, he benefits no one. His inaction only serves to infuriate the members more and the resulting mud-slinging, name-calling and what-not may even bring disrepute to the church of Jesus Christ. Only he can stop all these.

I am not sure if he is aware of the repercussions, all these publicity has on his children and grand-children. I feel embarrassed for them but regretfully, he does not seem to be bothered. That is truly sad.

I would dare say his greatest weakness is his pride. Pride appears to have overtaken him, blinded him and caused him to lose all sense of value, decency and integrity.

Let us pray that God will open his eyes that he may see the hurt, heartache and sorrow that his members are going through. Pray that he will recognise his mistakes and experience humility afresh. Above all, pray for God's will and purposes to be fulfilled in his life and in our church.

Winslow said...

Honestly,

Thanks for reminding me of my "role", but frankly speaking, I don't have any control over what people say on this blog, rightly or wrongly.

Remember, this is a public blog, accessible by anyone and everyone from everywhere where there's free internet access.

Having said that, I want you to know that much as I'm saddened by what is happening in CC and CIM, my stand has always been consistent.

Despite SP's shortcomings. I still love him, although I struggle many a time to do so, and I confess this to God.

I'm human but I don't use this as an excuse not to love him less, for my Bible tells me to EVEN "love our enemies". And SP is not even my enemy. He's still my pastor, and I respect his office but not necessarily his actions and words, which I have commented openly to exhort my fellow brothers and sisters.

One such example is that we should never stop telling others that we give glory to our God, and that's what testimonies are for. And if SP preached otherwise, I'm convicted by His Spirit to share with others that it's incorrect.

When SP has preached something inconsistent with God's Word, I say it boldly. In fact, I even emailed an Associate Pastor to register my stand. And I'm at peace with God in my spirit.

Remember, not every word that is preached from the pulpit is God's Word. We've heard this preached far too often of late, and my prayer is that God will grant you the discernment to reject it when it comes.

God's Spirit who resides in us causes us to discern and receive that which is from God, and reject that which is not from Him. And this is how I walk my faith all these years.

Not jumping in each time someone uses some strong words on this blog does NOT mean I condone them. But who am I to judge my brothers and sisters who have been very hurt by the many happenings in CC, while the leadership continue to echo the mantra "let God be God", and do nothing about it. There must be true repentance and healing of the body of Christ.

As this is a public blog, we blog at our own risk. And I have taken the risk by revealing my identity at a very early stage, and I stand by what I say.

However, what others say, I have no control, but that doesn't mean I agree with every comment. And to reiterate, I don't have the time to read and digest ever comment and respond accordingly. At times I must admit that I can't even cope with the pace set by my fellow bloggers, including your good self. For your information, I've already hit half a century.

I'm honest to myself and to God, Honestly. But for others, it's between them and their Maker.

God bless and goodnite.

Despise TTG said...

KC,

What a hypocrite you are. Sigh...

The worst thing happen to a church is having you group of hypocrites that influence member's faith.

Aren't you ashame of yourself. Bet you have no idea peoples in church are mourning for the state of your spiritual life.

Remember Jim Jones Tragedy said...

Remember Jim Jones (Guayana) Tragedy

Dear Anon 2.25, I have no doubt of your utmost respect for the office of the pastor, evermore since he is "D' senior pastor. No matter what he had done, is doing or will do; no matter how sinful, whatever he conspires, he still commands the office of "D" senior pastor and you are unwavering in your respect for him, you would go to any length to defend him, to make right any 'wrong' levelled against him. Ever wonder how the massacare happened?....no matter what he decrees (even tho God's Spirit had left him), the office of the pastor is to be respected & his commands acted on.

Respect sp no matter what.....
P/S: this will be my only comment for anon 2.25 as i think he is diverting attention to follow-up actions by TTG in the aftermath of this revealation. Please don't waste time on him.

KC said...

Dear despise ttg

God bless you.

honestly said...

To Winslow,

I always has a high regards toward you. You are once the fulltime staff that incharge of Calvaryland. I appreciate you for replying me.

Honestly speaking. I hope you are open enough to accept what I want to say to you here, in the public.

Yes, every word spoke from the pulpit are not necessary according to God's Word. Same principle apply to you as well. I don't agree with you guys only choose to be vocal towards SP flaws, but remain mute towards name calling & evil speculations. Do you respect your TTG members who behave like that. Even yourself that has choose to be coward. Stop telling me you have no control over this. It is "VERY OBVIOUS" that you choose to say nothing against evil speculation, evil name calling, & evil thoughts.

Even I fine day if SP choose to leave(Just assume), I'm utterly despise that we still have a TTG in Calvary & a CT in the internet that constantly judging & gossiping.

Don't you dare say you have no control over all these. It will make me despise you more for being such a hypocrite. If SP share a sermon you disagree, is amazing how quick you respond here. When someone is goosiping, name calling or accusing; you choose to remain silent cause it is not within your control. Who are you trying to kid.

If KC said is true that SP brought shame to himself & his family(I believe only the TTG believe that).I believe you all should be ashame of yourself.

I don't have to go on & on. I disagree with you for choosing to remain silent when needed to speak up. I disagree name calling & evil speculation. Got proofs then show it. Don't leave someone encourage Love & Respect alone here to defends God's Word.

If you are sad & speak up for SP flaws like wrong preaching, stealing, misleading & etc. Why you all choose to remain silent when everyday people here accusing, speculating, name calling & judging?

Have I spoke falsely against you?

Why so angry??? said...

Dear despise ttg,

Why you so angry with Datuk KC ( I hope I am addressing the right person)Actually many of us don't know who this Datuk KC is, so how can his state of spiritual life cause members to mourn. He is a nobody in church. I have not seen him at Leaders meetings before. So what his spiritual state is at is of no interest to most church members. I have not seen his name on the nomination list for deacons also.

Quite unlike our internationally and nationally acclaimed with all kinds of titles and sitting on all kinds of christian boards (cannot keep track of)famous SP. What his spiritual life is like will cause members to mourn because he is our spiritual leader (or least should be lah).

You angry at wrong person lah. What has Datuk KC done to you. Unless you are speaking for Tan Sri PG, the bigger shot to you!!!

Pity SP said...

actually, guys like "honestly" & "despise ttg" are the worst enemies of SP coz it's people like these that shows the world the kind of teaching they have learn from SP- to condemn & judge people.

SP will get more sympathy if people like this 2 keep their mouth shut, i mean, don't blog.

ttg supporter said...

Just reading in earlier comments by someone, asking where's TTG like... HM, karen, KC (not sure same KC who posted a comment.

I know most of the TTG and the 3 mentioned. HM now in Singapore, KC Lim on business trip in Australia and Karen and another pastor's wife visiting a missionary in Turkey. All TTG really busy working or ministering, no time to blog. anyway, good thing they not here, to waste time debating with people like honestly and despise ttg.

Samantha Wong said...

Thank you TTG supporter. My dad (HM) is indeed in Singapore and I am sure will be keeping abreast of this blog the best he can. Please be patient and allow them some time to respond.

Mission OTM said...

Good Morning Honestly, just stay where you are. Do not rebuke others as you do not want others to do to you. Gentle advise suffice. You have done more than that. Is that your conviction? With due respect, please focus on the revealed fact and comment objectively. Although I am not sure exactly who are they the "TTG/TTC". It is not as important as compared to the revealed facts. For the lack of response from the "older folks", perhaps due to their busy schedules, self restrains or confined attitudes. For your unfair comment on Winslow, you should have been out in the open (identified yourself) to do so. For you are no difference from those you have commented earlier.

Like many who maintain much quietness, me too is bound by what I know. And in time, shall be ready to testify both before man and God. Yes, let us blog responsibly.

While you are reading others' comments, why not take a bit of time to pray for one another. I am sure these comments are from real persons. Let us edifying one another in spirit and in truth. If you find difficulty engaging in this blog, why not pause and pray. God bless and have a nice day!

EY said...

To despise TTG
The worse thing that can happen to any church is people like you.... people who offers blind support.
Without the TTG standing out we would still be in the dark about the "happenings" in calvary church.
This is not about an individual , but the words and actions of that individual.
Well done TTG and stay on course.
God bless
EY

Blog at your own risk said...

Honestly,

When you rebuke others, you're also rebuking yourself. So watch it!

Just because people don't blog here to rebuke others based on your expectations, you rebuke them.

Aren't you a hypocrite, honestly speaking.

Ah Beng No. 2 said...

Good morning Honestly,

You're really on fire, rightly or wrongly. But please please hold your fire and long "rebuke" of others.

I suggest you relax and let God minister to you, so that you will not be so quick to rebuke. I can discern a lot of bitterness, hurt and resentment in you, and in the process you have started name-calling yourself.

Cool it and let God speak.

Have a cool day in Jesus' name. Jesus loves you, and I love you too.

Simpleman said...

Dear Honestly,

Yes, Ah Beng No. 2 is right. Just cool down, pause and pray for God's discernment. And please don't support blindly, regardless of the person, for he/she may fail you and when that happens, you will come crashing to the ground. Hard and sure to hurt!!!

Fast today if that helps you in your spirit to stop the rebuke, and name-calling. It's bad for your soul, honestly.

Have a fruitful day in Jesus. I love you too, although you may not agree with me, and other TTG supporters. By the way, you're also a TTG supporter in spirit, otherwise you're opposed to TRUTH, TRANSPARENCY & GOOD GOVERNANCE.

God bless.

EY said...

Good morning Ah Beng #2 and Simpleman.
I like your style and must say that you have written in Wisdom.
To Honestly
Good advive from your loving brothers in Christ
God bless

Anon 2.25 said...

Dear Brothers and Sisters,

Looks like I missed some "fireworks" after I left last night.

First of all, I do want to say that I truly appreciate friends like KC, Winslow, HM, Karen and many others who took a public stand at great personal cost to speak out what what they perceive as wrongs and injustices at CC at the EGM, here and elsewhere.

To KC, I agree with you fully that SP must assume full responsibility for the state of our church as he is our chief undershepherd under Christ.

As to whether I would call upon him to step down, I have to say I am not sure at this time. Perhaps if he resigns on his own accord, there might be a measure of healing in CC. At the very least, I believe he should fully engage his critics. I am deeply disappointed with him that he has chosen to be silent through all this. This I believe to be disrespectful on his part. However, I do concede that he may have his reasons, and for that I will leave to his conscience and to God.

To Winslow, I am fully in accord with you that the pulpit at CC has been much abused these days. Much too often, I think Calvarites leave the service feeling "condemned" rather than edified. I salute you for your courage to publicly voice your concerns to the pastors. May you continue to do that.

Dear Brother Winslow, I totally agree with you that none of us have any control over what people say in this blog. And whoever does do so at their own risk. That risk I fully accept, though I still wish to maintain my anonymity. However, you must surely concede "Honestly" his point, that you do command respect among many in the TTG bloggers. A word of caution on your part goes a long way to lower the temperature level here. I am not asking you to jump in and police the conversation, but a word or two along the way surely helps.

To "Honestly", I appreciate that you have tried to come to my defence, but I do feel that some of your words were unfair to him. Disagree with if you must, but please do it respectfully.

To "Despise TTG" I do not share your sentiments. I feel your characterization of KC and the TTG to be totally unfair and unkind.

To those who called to ignore me, I am deeply hurt by some of your statements. I must admit that I have dominated the discussion. It seems like I was always trying to get the last word in. I will try to be more careful. But I don't think I have deliberately tried to mislead or distract from the main topic. In any case, I believe my words are serious matters of concern and written in good faith. I appreciate those who tried to engage me seriously and I hope I have done so seriously and with respect as well.

We are all brothers and sisters in the Lord, and I hope to treated like one and strive to treat you as one too. Yes, you may been hurt deeply, but that shouldn't give you or me licence to use hurtful or unkind words.

God bless you all and may you have a wonderful day ahead of you.

no more respect for SP said...

Dear Anon 2.25
Are you still saying we should be submissive to a liar, a scoundrel and a cheat, who has cheated CC of AT LEAST RM1.9million?

"I do not say we just accept his flaws, just be gentle, submissive and respectful."

It's best you stay off the blog because you are obviously a SP supporter even though you claim to be 'neutral'! We see thru your 'true colours,' even though you try to paint yourself as fair & just, etc..

To: "Honestly" a.k.a KL BOY

I rebuke you for your hypocrisy, self-righteousness, and your spiritual blindness.

I rebuke you for bad-mouthing TTG members & supporters in your blind support of fallen pastors, viz.SP & SAP.

thinker said...

... the transfer of RM1.9m should obviously have been done in a more appropriate and transparent way and therefore in some sense members may feel "cheated" ... but liar, scoundrel and a cheat? ... that's what I mean about evidence which is lacking ...

... and also no need to rebuke left, right and centre just because you disagree ...

Anon 2.25 said...

Dear "no more respect for SP"

I am truly sorry, but it appears that nothing I can say will change your characterization of me. You seem to have made up your mind about me - "see thru your true colours," so I will just hold my peace.

I am neither an SP nor TTG supporter. I do appreciate what TTG in the main is trying to do. I only plead that we speak fairly, honestly with kindness and respect. I grant you the right to diasgree with me and I do hope you extend to me the same courtesy.

No Longer Blind said...

To: Anon 2.25

I sense the obvious biasness and tendencies to support despite the serious character flaws, which you carefully explained away. Nicely dropped off "character"? Trying to deflect and put blame on dissenting members too.

May I ask: Why are you so loyal, kind and respectful of SP but rather harsh, resentful and critical to dissenting members, who are also matured and well respected Christian leaders outside CC, though long time CC members but sidelined and not recognised in CC just because they spoke out against CC leadership?

Well, I think I know where you are coming from.

Nevertheless, we believe God is Almighty and All knowing. There is nothing that can be hidden from Him.

We will continue to pray for Justice, Truth & Righteousness to prevail in CC. Trust all this messy and ulgy state of affairs will come to an end in God's time! I pray that it be very soon.

No good for CC's witness at all and furthermore Christmas is just round the corner... how can CC celebrate in the midst of such strife?

Everyone is pretending to be nice and at peace with each other starting from SP, Pastors, BOD and down to all members!

God have mercy on us all!

Anon 2.25 said...

Dear "thinker"

My sentiments exactly.

If the seed fund of RM 30,000 was publicly announcement, I fail to see why the annual contributions of RM200,000 (not RM100,000 - my error earlier) which far exceeds the initial seed-fund were not made known to the general membership.

That's a serious lack of transparency and accountability of the part of the SP and BOD.

Perhaps, maybe, if "the transfer of RM1.9m ... have been done in a more appropriate and transparent way" there would be no outcry of being feeling "cheated."

And thus far I have not heard a satisfactory explanation and/or public apology, which I pray would be forth-coming.

Anon 2.25 said...

Dear "No Longer Blind"

I don't think I was "harsh, resentful and critical to dissenting members." If I had been, I fully apologized.

I have given my reasons for being "kind and respectful of SP" so I shall not repeat myself. Am I so (blindly?) loyal to SP? My friends who know me know that I do not see eye to eye with SP on many things. Enough said.

The Sheep said...

dear despise ttg,

Please bear in mind ,most of the Calvarites are not simpletons and we all have a mind of our own and are rational when comes to decision making.I believe It is not easy for KC to have influence any of us, if not for evidence or relevant citings.

If we choose to believe to KC or any one else, it is not because of who they are but what is produce before our eyes and we are educated enough to analyse the findings. We are not kids or shallow minded people to be easily influence by hearsay.

I hope you still respect our maturity and intelligence and please don't blame KC or anyone else if majority of Calvarites choose to move away from CC. Instead ask why did this happen? Is this God's intervention or Devil's work and let us all pray instead of pointing fingers.

Sheep in Calvary

AK said...

Echoing what "the sheep" has just said. Do not underestimate the Calvarites. No better way to persuade the masses except with uncompromized Truth. I hope BOD and SP read this loud and clear!

Have a fruitful day brothers and sisters!

Joseph Gerard said...

Dear bros & sis,

Let's be fair to the moderators of this blog. They have on numerous times pleaded with the bloggers here to refrain from using abusive and "un-christian like" (as some of you termed it) words while commenting. Therefore, to totally put a blame on them, I personally feel it's unfair.

To Honestly, it's rather impossible for any of the moderators and Bro. Winslow (since you named him) to control what's being said in this blog. It is accessible to everyone and anyone. On the contrary, some bloggers may turn back and say to them, "who are you to tell me what to write and what not to write!". The moderators and Bro. Winslow may suggest and plead, as they've always done, but the outcome is beyond their control.

We blog at our own risks. If anyone of us are not happy reading this blog, you have the options to always LOGOUT. Sometimes I do feel that when a person tries to "christianized" everything, that's when the problem starts. This is my personal view by the way. When we start pointing fingers and accusing others, our words and actions are no better than the ones we've accused.

To anon 2.25, you sounded VERY "christian" to me in your comments. Though I do not agree with some of your views, but I respect your stand as they are your own.

I agree with Bro. Vijay that the formation of CT is indeed at the right time and the way forward towards Truth, Transparency & Good Governance in the churches. If the church leaders are for Truth, Transparency & Good Governance in their churches, there should be nothing to fear. Only the devil is afraid of the LIGHT, and choose to live in darkness.

God bless.

God is monitoring this blog said...

Dear All,

Such a lot of firing - bullets going here and there! For those who are calling names, please be careful.

God is monitoring us - how do i know?

Yesterday with all the remarks I was typing out a response comment (which my spouse later heard what I had wanted to write said - "this is sarcastic"). I clicked preview twice - could not not get the preview. After a few times I got fed up and clicked "publish" - my coments never made it to this blog. I sensed that God did not want me to publish my comments which actually contained a lot of sacarsm.

So becareful what you blog - God is definitely monitoring this blog!!

Ah Beng said...

There sure has been some fireworks over the last 24 hours. Suggest everyone should read today's page in Our Daily Bread & think (even pray) before we comment.

Meanwhile, for all who has taken a stand be it pro-SP or pro-TTG; just remember that we are all (presumably & hopefully) Calvarites &, thus Christians. I believe that both sides have prayed to the same God over this matter but which side is God on? I was told that in such a situation, He is on the side of Truth.

We do not know why SP has kept silent & allow the BOD to defend him, to the extent of the reading of that now infamous statement at the Sunday worship services on 6th July.

I concur with Anon 2.25 & KC that SP, as the shepherd at CC, is "responsible" for this mess but does SP realise that he is also "accountable & answerable" to God for this mess.

He should have sorted it out at the AGM but then ........ SP divided CC when he took that unnecessary vote despite our CC auditor's (Bro. Tuck Hing) admission that, over the years, he was wrong in aceding to the CC leadership & his Technical Partner at PWC had told him that Extended Ministries' A/cs ought to be presented to the CC members at the AGM.

I am glad that SP lost that vote & I am sure that God wanted it that way as otherwise CC would have voted to do something "improper" which would be unbecoming of a "fountainhead" church.

I thank God for raising up the TTG group whose stand is on Truth, Transparency & good Governance. I still don't know what is the BOD's stand other than supporting SP blindly. God gives us wisdom, we should pray & use it as anything unused will deteriorate - think about it, BOD.

Whilst I know that it's hard for some to respect SP, in view of the mess at CC, but let's refrain from namecalling & other unChristian words/action; remember Bette Midler's song? God is watching us.

Meanwhile, I hope that you can all join me in this prayer - Father God I pray that You will have mercy on all at CC & bring this to a swift end by revealing the Truth & restore back Truth, Transparency & good Governance at CC so that we can all stand together again to do Your Great Commission. Amen.

Stay and persevere said...

To Anon 2.25,

I believe you are mistaken if you think that the members are unhappy only over the non-announcement of the annual transfer of RM200,000 to CIM. I personally am enraged over the transfer itself and the mechanism of the transfer, not only the non-announcement. To my mind, the transfer was completely inappropriate. Why should such a large sum be given to SP's personal ministry? A better modus operandi would be to keep the funds in Missions account and resolve that a yearly amount derived from the interest generated be given to CIM.

BTW, the initial RM30,000 was not only announced; it was approved by the members, although (I do not remember clearly) it was probably the CC style approval (no voting, just a show of hands). For that matter, many members are still upset over the way the CC project was pushed through with no vote, only by standing up, which was such a mockery! I clearly remember members in the first few rows springing up to their feet as if preplanned, and those behind slowly and maybe reluctantly follow suit. I pray this never happens again!

hm said...

Dear Baffled Mind,
NECF had already answered that their membership roll would be rectified acordingly. I take that to mean that CIM would be excluded from membership. I do not think it would be proper or appropriate for me to to question how and who they appoint as advisors. I believe past chairmen are automatically apppointed as advisors. I wrote to NECF as an associate member. Any associate member can write to them for answers. I believe they did not respond to KC because he was not a member of NECF. Please join NECF as an individual associate member. Annual subs is only RM60. They are doing excellent work and deserve all our support.
Blessings,
Hong Meng

Oldie said...

We have watched many times over the years how some members stood up at AGMs to question or dispute some matters. Sadly most of them were shot down and there were no response from the "management" of CC. Some who boldly stood up were discouraged and even left the church.

Suddenly out of no where we got a group that was bold enough to stand up for Truth and transpancy and still standing. We felt that indeed it is God's timing and He permitted this group to stand strong and you may say "stubbornly"

Sadly our pastor has so far not come out to do reconciliation and healing. He has allowed de APs, BOD and other members to speak for him. This itself speaks so loudly what kind of shepherd we have. With all the dirty linen washed he does not care that those close to him would be hurt and put to shame.

Anon 2.25 said...

I just wanted to say I appreciate the comments of Brother Joseph, "God is monitoring this blog," and An Beng. I shall refrain from further words, lest another round of "fireworks" be provoked. :)

Thank you, my brothers and sisters.

Anon 2.25 said...

Dear "Stay and persevere"

Please note I prefaced my statement with "perhaps, maybe" ... and the following words were not mine exactly. I was echoing "thinkers"'s.

Anyway, it would seem that I was mistaken. Point taken. I stand corrected. Thank you.

Ah Beng No. 2 said...

Dear Ah Beng,

Yes, God is watching us, so blog responsibly, minus the name-calling other unChristian words/actions.

Just a note on Bette Midler's song? God is watching us... from a distance, that's what Bette sings.

But the real truth is, God is watching us, not from a distance (as if He's a distant God) but He watches us from within us, for He is in us. He's interested in everybody and whatever we blog here.

So remember, God is watching us HERE. God bless.

Almost choked! said...

i almost choked on my teh-tarik while reading SP's article in Berita Calvary (July - August 2003 issue), entitled "MORALLY BANKRUPT," in which he said,

"But as God's children born of the Spirit (Jn.3:5), we evaluate what is good or bad only on the basis of God and His character. The only foundation for moral values is God in our lives, the God of the Bible where Christian morality grows out of a relationship with Jesus."

He wrote this while secretly siphoning money out of CC's missions funds into his personal ministry account, CIM!! What the...!!!

Wow, does this man have NO CONSCIENCE at all? Looks like he, too, is as morally bankrupt as those he was writing about, i.e. those who do not know the Lord! Sad, sad! What a hypocrite he is!

How to respect such a man, Anon 2:25?

Curious said...

Excuse me, Ah Beng 1 & 2, but is Bette Midler a Christian? If not, which god was she referring to?

Anon 2.25 said...

Dear "Almost choked!"

I am not sure you expect a response from me. Maybe your question is merely rhetorical.

But as for the matter of respect, I think I have said all that I wanted to say. Repeating myself will clutter the blog space, I think.

Police and Authority said...

The comment column had now somehow turn to fire firing.. Anyhow, I as part of TTG would like to call on AOG and other authorities to intervene the soonest possible.

Personally, I felt that Calvarytoday and the TTG had been responsible and diligent enough and had been seeking God for directions and wisdom and guidance, what had happened in CC is the work of the evil one. As part of TTG, none of us is interested to carry on 'fighting' or 'quarrelling' or 'being disrespetful', whatever said anyway. But sincerely and in submission to Christ, I urge people in AOG, please help and do intervene soonest possible, it maybe to revoke SP preaching license, suspension or any disciplinary actions since there are enough of complaint either thru this blog or thru different individual..

I only hope and pray that Christ is still the center of our whole saga.

I fully support actions and statement in the post that if all biblical approach and christian love had been presented and yet the christian body or BOD in calvary church are not intervening or helping, then authority will be the answer.

Anon 2.25 said...

Dear "Police and Authority"

I believe that the leaders of the TTG (as well as SP) are in touch with the leadership of AOG.

Just because nothing is mentioned on this blog, it does not mean that nothing is happening.

Please be patient and perservere. God is in control.

Moving Forward said...

For the sake of unity and reconciliation, I would like to see the following done:

1. The Constitution & Resolution Committee (as proposed by the BOD at the EGM but nothing has been heard since then – sigh!) to be established immediately.

2. Members of this Committee should consists of say 3 members of the BOD + 4 members from the congregation (not necessarily only from the TTG). In politics this is referred to as a bi-partisan effort.

3. Notwithstanding the composition of the CRC, appropriate platforms should also be created to allow all concerned members to voice/forward their comments, inputs and proposals. For example, dedicated email box; specially created CRC Forms which can be dropped in to the Suggestion Box; have open sessions with members, etc…

4. It would be good that any decision/recommendation from the CRC should be unanimous.

5. The CRC be given a specific period to complete its task – suggestion of 3 months.

6. Keep the members informed of the progress.

In the meantime, the silence of the BOD is not helping the situation.

Enough of fighting said...

Can all of you stop quarelling and fighting and so on ?
We just need to get problem resolved. The main thing is to get problem resolved so that the church will be revived and not be a half dead church.
Enough of the nonsense already. There are a lot of church members who are hurting and if we do not something about this, it will get worse.

stay on course said...

Dear anon 2.25,

Although I do not fully agree with you on your stand of respecting the pastor's office .... (like Joseph Gerard said, I will respect your opinion), but I must apologise to you for asking others to ignore you in this blog. In the heat of the "fireworks" unplesant words flowed and I apologise. Yes God is watching is and we must be careful what we blog. If we are tired, keep the fingers away from the keyboard.
God bless.

Anon 2.25 said...

Dear "Moving Forward"

I agree with you. Maybe, each one of us should "pressure" the BOD individually to move forward, like the persistent widow, for their silence and tardiness is irresponsible. After all, it was their proposal. Perhaps, we can move that "mountain".

Anon 2.25 said...

Dear "Stay on course"

Thank you and God bless you too.

Psalm 133

Ah Beng said...

To "Curious" at 11.17am,

Regarding your comment - "Excuse me, Ah Beng 1 & 2, but is Bette Midler a Christian? If not, which god was she referring to?"

Firstly, there is no Ah Beng 1 & 2 lah, I am Ah Beng & the other fella is Ah Beng No. 2 - OK?

As for Bette Midler, the said song sounds like a Christian song. Whether it is or not & whether Bette Midler is a Christian or not, I am not aware but the gist of my comment at 10.07am is "God is watching us" which is to remind all of us that GOD is watching us!!!

As for me & my family, I serve the one & only Risen God & not mammon or any others. I hope you are too.

As for the mess at CC, I stand with the TTG as they are standing for the Truth & it is said that God is on the side of Truth; thus I stand with God. Are you?

I hope that Anon 2.25 is also standing with us & with the God of Truth.

Penat dengan orang yang hanya suka bercakap said...

O Tuhan Yesus, hatiku sedih. banyak mahu cakap, tapi bila nak lapor polis, lain ceritanya, banyak mahu cakap pun banyak di comment sini, tapi berpura-pura bila kata polis adalah jawapannya.

Saya memang sokong apa yang telah di bincangkan di 'post' ini, tak ada penyelesaan, pergilah jumpa polis.

Anon 2.25 said...

Dear Ah Beng,

Yes, in as much as the TTG speaks the truth I stand with you. (I too hope if that is not too much to ask, that we speak the truth in love too).

My God is the God and Father of Jesus Christ, who is the Way, the Truth and Life.

The Hebrew word for Truth consists of the first, last and middle letter of the Hebrew alphabet. The rabbis interpret that Truth is eternal, first, last and present.

Anon 2.25 said...

Dear "honestly"

Thank you for your response. What I have said with reference to your exchange with Winslow is there in my post at November 18, 2008 8:26 AM. I have nothing more to add.

Peace and blessings to you, my brother (and to Winslow as well).

Don't read if you can't take it said...

To honestly and despise TTG……
The TTG members don’t need you to worship them like how u worship SP. They don’t need yr respect either as they are not the ones preaching on the pulpit every Sunday and they are not the ones handling church funds. So like one of u said tat if SP were to leave the church and u wud stil despise TTG, why don’t’ u also leave Calvary Church and follow SP wherever he goes? You will not be missed! Also, I think you guys are cowards for hiding under a nickname to condemn the TTG members.If u are really that bold as to speak up for SP, do it in church,do it after service or call them up to speak to them or meet them outside. Otherwise, most of us readers here wil just treat u guys like hyprocites and cowards

Moving Forward said...

So many words by so many people - so what should be done (besides going to the authorities and all that which incidentally I diasgree with)?

Is there no way we can encourage and/or pressure the BOD to set up the Constitution & Resolution Committee (CRC) without further delay? In fact, each day delay merely speaks of the genuine (or otherwise) intention of the BOD and they will be wholly responsible if things take a turn for the worse.

Anon 2.25 said...

I plead with all readers to take a deep breath (and pray) and cool down before we respond. Let us not start calling another to leave the church, etc. We are brothers and sisters in the Lord, saved by the blood of Christ, baptized into one Spirit.

Puzzled said...

Dear Honesty,

Oh dear, oh dear! such a lot of ammunition.

If you feel that this blog is not of help and the TTG supporters are hopeless and unChristian like. May I make a suggestion - go bodly to our SP and tell him how hurt you are and you feel so much for him with all the things in the blog. Could he please come out in the open and redeem himself. You may have better results than the TTG.

Now isn't this a good suggestion? This would put an end to this blog.

FYI I also do not like some of the comments posted either but I could feel the frustration like the others of the silence from our church leaders

I'm also honest said...

Dear Honestly,

You sure are honest and you don't mince your words and emotions. But brother/sister cool it and don't get personal with Winslow. He didn't get personal with you, why should you? He's a nice brother as I've known him for many years.

Please stop your rebuke. You are getting overboard. If you can't stand this blog, may I suggest you don't blog here. Why get yourself all stressed up. Better pray for everybody - CC, CIM, SP, TTG and yourself, that this saga will end soon. God bless.

Don't judge lest ye be judged said...

Honestly,

Did someone tell you off that you are abusive, not others? After you have cooled down, please read your comments again and see how abusive you have been to others. Don't judge lest ye be judged!

Mercy Mercy said...

Honestly,

You remind me of the lady neighbour next door who comes over to your house with a kitchen knife and start abusing you over something that you did and which you can't even recall.

No offence meant to our fairer sex, but it's just an illustration on how abusive honestly can be. Mercy be upon him/her, and if honestly is really a man, more mercy for him!

Anon 2.25 said...

There is a silly story about a man with a terrible temper who was playing a round of golf with his pastor. After leaving three straight putts on the edge of the cup the man exploded. “I missed,” he screamed. “How could I miss?” With that he heaved his putter in to a nearby lake, kicked a wheel on the golf cart and drove his fist into a nearby tree.” His pastor was shocked. “I have never seen such a terrible display of anger,” he said to the poor man. “Don’t you know that God doesn’t like us when we are angry? You better watch out. I have heard that there is angel whose one assignment is to search out people who express their anger so ferociously and to send a lightning bolt from the heaven to burn them to a crisp.” The man was embarrassed and better behaved the next few holes. However, on the last three holes his putter failed him again. When the last putt veered off to the right just in front of the hole the man went crazy. “I missed,” he screamed in despair. “How could I miss?” He broke his club across his knee and threw it as far as he could, he kicked up several large clumps of dirt on the edge of the green and once more drove his fist into a nearby tree. All of a sudden the sky grew dark as an ominous cloud passed over. There was a clap of thunder and an awesome burst of lightning --- and the pastor was burned to a crisp. An eerie silence filled the golf course. All that could be heard was a quiet voice from heaven: “I missed. How could I miss?”

Okay, that's a terrible story/joke. Please no offense intended and not directed at anyone. Just wanted to lighten the mood. See, I am not "serious" all the time. If anyone feels offended, I apologize. CT, feel free to delete if you feel this to be inappropriate.

Beh Tahan Alredi said...

Dear Honestly,

Better change name to ah chi ah coh. Really beh tahan your non-stop abusive language.

Pray and spend less time on this blog. That's my advice. Why blog if you can't stand other bloggers? Watch CNN better.

He's funny said...

Ha!Ha!Ha! What a story, Anon 2.25!

I didn't know you can be funny too. I sense this story is meant for Honestly. He/She can curse and abuse others, but my God is more accurate that illustrated in your story, Anon 2.25. Watch out, Honestly. Ha!Ha!Ha!

Anon 2.25 said...

No, no, no, please, NO ONE intended.

Drive at your own risk said...

Dear Beh Tahan Alredi,

You are right, but I think Honestly should stop blogging once and for all as he/she doesn't know the one and only rule on blogging - blog at your own risk.

It's like driving in KL where there's one and only traffic rule - drive at your own risk. You cannot tell others how to drive - left, right, straight, turn here, there, everywhere. If you can't stand the other drivers, you stay home because you can't change the way others drive.

honestly said...

To,
Don't read if you can't take it,
Puzzled,
I'm also honest,
Don't judge lest ye be judged,
Mercy mercy
Beh Tahan alredi,

If beh tahan reading my comment then don't read it. After all, my comments are addressing to none of you. If you are not the bunch that calling people's family name & ridicule people. Why gets all heated up for for comments that are not meant for you.

This is a public blog, blog at your own risk, remember?

If indeed I accuse & judge the TTG & CT in my last comment. Let them speak for themselves.

This will be my last reply to people that has nothing to do with my comment to Winslow & TTG.

Taking cover said...

Hi everyone,

Take cover now for Honestly is about to appear and start shooting again. I'm taking a break now, and won't be back until tonite.

Moving Forward said...

And I thought that this blog is to find ways of how to improve/change the present situation which we are facing so that we can become what we were meant to be - the Body of Jesus. Sigh!

Taking cover said...

Oophs, too late for he/she has started again. I'm off. Beh tahan alredi. Bye.

dont' read if you can't take it said...

Honestly, just admit u r a coward. Since yr issues are directed at ttg members,u email them to show them yr real identity and they will answer u. why don’t u dare to reveal yr identity? Scared ar?

Joseph Gerard said...

To drive at your own risk, I like your illustration.

God bless.

"Authority in action" said...

shshshshshhh.....sshsh..shshsh..
Everybody, please freeze your finger for 5 minutes, zip your lips and meditate upon the Lord for 5 minutes. Then slowly and gently start your comment:

The main agenda, CIM--a very controversial scandal in CALVARY CHURCH and a very hot news piece in CALVARYTODAY. Many said this is 'WRONG' violation of basic 'Trust'and 'law' in any organisation. What more christian church--calvary church--fountain head church as claimed by article on NST yesterday. How come our SP can tell such a 'story'--you guys help me to put descriptive word for him,please.

Lets all report to relevant authorities.

no more respect for SP said...

Oh, I am Soooo sorry for "honestly"....

your self-righteous hatred & pride must be eating you up!

The reason why you are targetting Winslow & TTG is because you cannot stand what they represent.....Truth, Transparency, Accountability & good church governance..you actually have no substance to support your fallen shepherd, so you just find fault with those who have dug up facts against him.

Tell, me honestly, what do you think of that blatant lie reported in the NST that Calvary Church has 10,000 members?
Frankly speaking, I almost VOMITED when I read it...! Is SP so desperate for fame and power that he would tell big, fat lies just to achieve his goals? If CC has only 3,000 members (which is the actual figure now), would that disqualify him to mix with the big-wigs of A/G International?

ONEUPMANSHIP said...

Dear "no more respect for SP",

If CC has only 3,000 members, it will definitely disqualify him to mix with the big-wigs of A/G International?

It's like the English Football League. You have the English Premier League (EPL) where only the top teams can competite. Then down the line, we have the 1st Division, 2nd Division, 3rd Division, 4th Division and non-division.

Like a football team, if CC has only 3,000 worshippers, it will be RELEGATED to maybe 2nd Division.

This is the name of the game, even in AG circles. It's ONEUPMANSHIP.

ONEUPMANSHIP said...

Oophs sorry, not competite but compete. This is the trouble with tough competition in the Big League, you slip and fall, like SP.

Honestly's Pal said...

Hi Honestly, where are you? We miss your comments, honestly.

Anon 2.25 said...

Church Growth Primer:

Megachurch: 2,000 members
Gigachurch: 10,000 members
Whomperchurch: 25,000 members
Bazillionchurch: 50,000 members
Googlechurch: 100,000 members
AverageKoreanChurch: 250,000 members
CalvaryToday: 47611 hits and going

Joseph Gerard said...

Hi anon 2.25,

I see you're trying to "cool down" the fiery situation in the blog. Good one. I could sense a positive spirit in you now.

God bless.

Amon 2.25 said...

Dear Brother Joseph:

Thank you. I seem in be a silly mood today. You know we Christians tend to take ourselves much too seriously. We need to be able to laugh at ourselves at times.

But please be assured that I still consider the situation in CC to be a very serious one.

Blessings and Peace

Winslow said...

Good evening beloved bloggers of Calvary Today, especially my fellow Calvarites, not forgetting my brother/sister Honestly.

Wow, I notice that my name has been named and quoted, rightly or wrongly, a number of times in the last few days, especially last night and today.

My only comment for the time being is, PEACE BE WITH YOU ALL, especially to my brother/sister Honestly.

Well, the heat is getting very intense of late. My dear wife called me this morning and asked me “how?” and I told her, “be patient for our God is still in control despite the intense heat”.

A friend of mine sent me the following story this evening, and I enjoyed it so much that I want to bless all Calvary Today bloggers, including my brother/sister Honestly, with it. I hope you will enjoy the rest of your day and may you sleep well tonight, FOR ALL IS WELL WITH OUR SOULS, I pray.


CAN YOU SLEEP WHILE THE WIND BLOWS?

Years ago, a farmer owned land along the Atlantic seacoast. He constantly advertised for hired hands. Most people were reluctant to work on farms along the Atlantic. They dreaded the awful storms that raged across the Atlantic, wreaking havoc on the buildings and crops. As the farmer interviewed applicants for the job, he received A steady stream of refusals.

Finally, a short, thin man, well past middle age, approached the farmer. "Are you a good farm hand?" the farmer asked him. "Well, I can sleep when the wind blows," answered the little man.

Although puzzled by this answer, the farmer, desperate for help, hired him. The little man worked well around the farm, busy from dawn to dusk, and the farmer felt satisfied with the man's work.

Then one night the wind howled loudly in from offshore. Jumping out of bed, the farmer grabbed a lantern and rushed next door to the hired hand's sleeping quarters. He shook the little man and yelled, "Get up! A storm is coming! Tie things down before they blow away!" The little man rolled over in bed and said firmly, "No sir. I told you, I can sleep when the wind blows."

Enraged by the response, the farmer was tempted to fire him on the spot. Instead, he hurried outside to prepare for the storm. To his amazement, he discovered that all of the haystacks had been covered with tarpaulins. The cows were in the barn, the chickens were in the coops, and the doors were barred. The shutters were tightly secured. Everything was tied down.

Nothing could blow away. The farmer then understood what his hired hand meant, so he returned to his bed to also sleep while the wind blew.

MORAL OF THE STORY
When you're prepared, spiritually, mentally, and physically, you have nothing to fear. Can you sleep when the wind blows through your life?

The hired hand in the story was able to sleep because he had secured the farm against the storm. We secure ourselves against the storms of life by grounding ourselves in the Word of God.

We don't need to understand, we just need to hold His hand to have peace in the middle of storms.

God bless.
Winslow

Anon 2.25 said...

Some years ago, the Archbishop of Canterbury was rushing to catch a train in London. In his haste, he accidentally jumped on the wrong passenger car and found himself on a car full of inmates from a mental hospital. They were all dressed in mental hospital clothing.

Just as the train pulled out of the station, an orderly came in and began to count the inmates, "1-2-3-4" when suddenly he saw this distinguished looking gentleman there wearing a business suit and a clerical collar and he said:

"Who are you?" The answer came back: "I am the Archbishop of canterbury!" And the orderly said: "5-6-7-8."

Moral of the story: None intended, but if you wish to apply the non-intended moral, apply to self (yours truly included)

Disclaimer: Deepest apologies to all my Anglican brothers and sisters. No offense intended. It's just a story.

Oldie said...

Let's go back on track. It is nice and relaxing to read stories but we need to focus on what we are blogging.

Simpleman said...

Thanks Winslow for the heart-warming story with such a strong message for all of us concerned Calvarites.

Yes, we don't need to understand why we are faced with such a stormy situation in CC and CIM. We just need to hold God's hand to have peace in the middle of storms.

When we're prepared, spiritually, mentally, and physically, we have nothing to fear.

We secure ourselves against the storms in CC and CIM by grounding ourselves in the Word of God.

And when we don't seem to understand, trust His heart for His plan for us is good, always. Amen.

NeNe said...

Amen and amen, Winslow and Simpleman.

obvious said...

Dear TTG members

Do not be discouraged by ignoramuses like Honestly (who should change his name to Dishonestly) etc. This only shows that what you all have been doing is right as the devil himself is trying to discourage you by using his pawns like Honestly to speak evil words against you.

All of you have always been bold in revealing your identities to SP, BOD and the church members but ppl like Honestly has to hide behind a nickname to taunt you all.

We, the rest of the church members, have no regard for ppl like him. Do not fear, God is on our side and soon, the TRUTH will be revealed. This is just the beginning of the end for SP if he still chooses not to repent. It is however, a beginning of new beginnings for us church members as we will soon see the light of day and CC will be restored to be God's church, and not SP's church.

real honest said...

Honestly, be honest, stop attacking Winslow, i know him, i am an ex-staff. The sheep knows their shepherd.

Are you working, if you are quit your job, go work in CC then you will get to know your beloved SP as well as all the others real well. Do not be outside the fence and keep on bleating "meh...meh...", meh in chinese means what, don't what join the flock and get a feel of how it is like. But beware there is a sheep pastor S.....W..... don't be close to her, spy lah.

JONAH said...

Second Chances


I dedicate this article to SP and "Honestly"

"...I knew that You are a gracious and compassionate God, slow to anger and abounding in love, a God who relents from sending calamity"
(Jonah 4:2).

Have you ever gone through a time of disobedience with God? Jonah was a prophet of God who decided he didn't want to prophesy for the Lord. God wanted him to deliver a message to Nineveh to warn them against impending destruction if they didn't turn from their ways.

Jonah had developed a hardened heart toward the people of Nineveh. He didn't really care if they repented or not; so rather than travel to Nineveh and deliver the message, he hopped a boat in the opposite direction. You probably know the rest of the story. He was eaten by a fish and spent a few days thinking about his decision.

There is a place where we all will obey. What circumstances must take place for us to become obedient? For some of us, it requires a good shakeup. For Jonah, it required a big shakeup because he was God's man to save 120,000 people. He was chosen by God to be used by God, and God didn't give up on him.

God understands our disobedient heart. He sees what we really are, yet He gives second chances. God gave Jonah a second chance. He gave the people of Nineveh a second chance. It is a lesson of love from a heavenly Father who specializes in second chances.

Have you blown it? Have you disappointed someone close to you? God is the God of second chances. All we have to do is acknowledge our waywardness. He will restore. He will give grace. Ask Him.

Simple faith said...

Dear All,
Lets tonight focuses on the "moving forward" that Philip Tan was talking about. As of now, that was mere talk! No further action in sight!

I read from the blogger bro/sis 'moving forward' about this subject matter. I think it is important for us to be united in prayer. For the items listed will definitely moving CC forward in the right direction. I long for the time one day, we can all sit together boundlessly sharing and caring for one another. I am admiring those who had taken off the mask of anonymity in this blog. I wish I can. I know I need to be real with God and with man.

BOD, doing nothing does not really mean let God be God. On the the contrary, we may instead hinder Him to be God in us. Please do something and let righteousness and humility prevail.

Will someone among us lead the way? God bless all and Good Night!

Anon 2.25 said...

Love never gives up.
Love cares more for others than for self.
Love doesn’t want what it doesn’t have.
Love doesn’t strut,
Doesn’t have a swelled head,
Doesn’t force itself on others, Isn’t always “me first,”
Doesn’t fly off the handle,
Doesn’t keep score of the sins of others,
Doesn’t revel when others grovel,
Takes pleasure in the flowering of truth,
Puts up with anything,
Trusts God always,
Always looks for the best,
Never looks back,
But keeps going to the end.

Eugene H. Peterson, The Message : The Bible in Contemporary Language, 1 Co 13:4-7.

Anon 2.25 said...

Lord, make me an instrument of your peace,
Where there is hatred, let me sow love;
where there is injury, pardon;
where there is doubt, faith;
where there is despair, hope;
where there is darkness, light;
where there is sadness, joy;

O Divine Master, grant that I may not so much seek to be consoled as to console;
to be understood as to understand;
to be loved as to love.

For it is in giving that we receive;
it is in pardoning that we are pardoned;
and it is in dying that we are born to eternal life.

Prayer of Saint Francis of Assisi

Anon 2.25 said...

13 Now when Joshua was near Jericho, he looked up and saw a man standing in front of him with a drawn sword in his hand. Joshua went up to him and asked, “Are you for us or for our enemies?”
14 “Neither,” he replied, “but as commander of the army of the Lord I have now come.” Then Joshua fell facedown to the ground in reverence, and asked him, “What message does my Lorda have for his servant?”
15 The commander of the Lord’s army replied, “Take off your sandals, for the place where you are standing is holy.” And Joshua did so.

New International Version, Jos 5:13-15.

Anon 2.25 said...

5 I have a special concern for you church leaders. I know what it’s like to be a leader, in on Christ’s sufferings as well as the coming glory. Here’s my concern: that you care for God’s flock with all the diligence of a shepherd. Not because you have to, but because you want to please God. Not calculating what you can get out of it, but acting spontaneously. Not bossily telling others what to do, but tenderly showing them the way.
4–5 When God, who is the best shepherd of all, comes out in the open with his rule, he’ll see that you’ve done it right and commend you lavishly. And you who are younger must follow your leaders. But all of you, leaders and followers alike, are to be down to earth with each other, for—
God has had it with the proud,
But takes delight in just plain people.
6–7 So be content with who you are, and don’t put on airs. God’s strong hand is on you; he’ll promote you at the right time. Live carefree before God; he is most careful with you.

Eugene H. Peterson, The Message : The Bible in Contemporary Language 1 Pe 5:1-7.

Anon 2.25 said...

“Be wary of false preachers who smile a lot, dripping with practiced sincerity. Chances are they are out to rip you off some way or other. Don’t be impressed with charisma; look for character. Who preachers are is the main thing, not what they say. A genuine leader will never exploit your emotions or your pocketbook. These diseased trees with their bad apples are going to be chopped down and burned.

Eugene H. Peterson, The Message : The Bible in Contemporary Language Mt 7:15-20.

FULLACTION said...

1. move on for constitutional review,
2. SP and SAP to resign and take early post and past retirement
3. board of deacons to resign
4. take up HM proposal on healing and reconciliation
5. CIM to dissolve
6. extended ministry to be back under calvary church
7. AOG must render intervention now
8. Failing all...

Wondering said...

Why is Anon 2.25 preaching so intently and diligently in the blog? He/She seems to be continuously talking here?

Just wondering if he or she has no other responsibilites to attend to? It will be good to know the true identity of Anon 2.25 to render credibility to his/her preaching.

me no respect SP said...

hi wondering..some of Anon 2.25 bible verses quite good wor..he is an ok guy to me but onli thing i don agree with him is d part on respecting sp. sorila,can't do tat Anon as i onli respect real servants of God, i cant respect crook like sp who steal my hard earn money to fly business class

Fullsupport said...

Hello fullaction,

You have my full support. God have mercy on Calvary Church.

There is so much still to be done till the Lord's Return again!

Anon 2.25 said...

Please respect my desire for anonymity. I have my reasons. I am not "preaching" ... these are just bible verses (no comments) and one prayer

Anon 2.25 said...

Dear "me no respect SP"

Thank you for your kind words, we don't need to agree on everything. Only ask you to respect my (own) views, as I respect yours.

Peace and Blessings

Guess 1 said...

I think ANONYMOUS 2.25 is a housewife.

A 2.25 blogs the whole day!

Anon 2.25 said...

or retired loafer? Please stop guessing :)

Anon 2.25 said...

or maybe just a bot? Nah ...

Anon 2.25 said...

My spouse just scolded me. I will stop these silly posts now. Sorry to all.

Maybe it was something I had for lunch.

me no respect sp said...

hahaha..tats wat i was thinking anon..tat u r retired.me cant wait for d day i retire..long time more though.anyway,all..lets stop guessing la.anon is free to comment as much he want..i prefer him than tat honestly fella,really vomit blood reading tat one's comments..

ahh..seriously now said...

I heard someone cant wait to go to authority..seriously, don speculate..who, but pray..and be sober..calvarites please rise and look to Christ, and spend time in prayer, spend less time arguing in the comment column but be constructive and christlike..

Anon 2.25 said...

6 And how dare you take each other to court! When you think you have been wronged, does it make any sense to go before a court that knows nothing of God’s ways instead of a family of Christians? The day is coming when the world is going to stand before a jury made up of followers of Jesus. If someday you are going to rule on the world’s fate, wouldn’t it be a good idea to practice on some of these smaller cases? Why, we’re even going to judge angels! So why not these everyday affairs? As these disagreements and wrongs surface, why would you ever entrust them to the judgment of people you don’t trust in any other way?
5–6 I say this as bluntly as I can to wake you up to the stupidity of what you’re doing. Is it possible that there isn’t one levelheaded person among you who can make fair decisions when disagreements and disputes come up? I don’t believe it. And here you are taking each other to court before people who don’t even believe in God! How can they render justice if they don’t believe in the God of justice?
7–8 These court cases are an ugly blot on your community. Wouldn’t it be far better to just take it, to let yourselves be wronged and forget it? All you’re doing is providing fuel for more wrong, more injustice, bringing more hurt to the people of your own spiritual family.

Eugene H. Peterson, The Message : The Bible in Contemporary Language 1 Co 6:1-8.

some question to banker and lawyer said...

if the money in CIM account is frozen due to legal/inapproriate documentation, is this consider a criminal act by the bank? I am sure then, the bank may have to report this case to Bank Negara and also the police. otherwise, the bank also can be sued if they did not take the appropriate action to protect themselves. come to think of it..now, Sp surely in deep trouble if the account is frozen. no money somemore having to face legal and criminal action! any lawyer can you please enlighten us ?

Anon 2.25 said...

19 Do not listen to an accusation against an elder unless it is confirmed by two or three witnesses. 20 Those who sin should be reprimanded in front of the whole church; this will serve as a strong warning to others.


New Living Translation
1 Timothy 5:19-20

Anon 2.25 said...

5 I also received a report ... within your church family, a kind that wouldn’t be tolerated even outside the church: .... And you’re so above it all that it doesn’t even faze you! Shouldn’t this break your hearts? Shouldn’t it bring you to your knees in tears? Shouldn’t this person and his conduct be confronted and dealt with?
3–5 I’ll tell you what I would do. Even though I’m not there in person, consider me right there with you, because I can fully see what’s going on. I’m telling you that this is wrong. You must not simply look the other way and hope it goes away on its own. Bring it out in the open and deal with it in the authority of Jesus our Master. Assemble the community—I’ll be present in spirit with you and our Master Jesus will be present in power. Hold this man’s conduct up to public scrutiny. Let him defend it if he can! But if he can’t, then out with him! It will be totally devastating to him, of course, and embarrassing to you. But better devastation and embarrassment than damnation. You want him on his feet and forgiven before the Master on the Day of Judgment.

Eugene H. Peterson, The Message : The Bible in Contemporary Language

1 Co 5:1-5.

Anon 2.25 said...

Brothers and sisters,

Let me explain what I am doing. I am simply looking up scriptures which I think may be relevant (I could be wrong in some of my choices). Sans comments. Let us all reflect on God's words as we consider what is to be done. We should all stand under the Word.

Blessings.

Anon 2.25 said...

21 At that point Peter got up the nerve to ask, “Master, how many times do I forgive a brother or sister who hurts me? Seven?”
22 Jesus replied, “Seven! Hardly. Try seventy times seven.

Eugene H. Peterson, The Message : The Bible in Contemporary Language

Mt 18:21-22.

Guess 1 said...

Dear Anon 2.25,

I think its not only what you had for lunch but the whole day 'cos you blogged the whole day.

Day, night and afternoon!

Please spend some time with your spouse(husband) and children too. Dont neglect them. God gave them to you. Treasure and cherish them.

Anon 2.2 said...

Dear "Guess I said"

Alas, my children need me no more ... my spouse, ah the joy of my life

But I will heed your counsel as it's time for bed anyways.

Good Night and Blessings to All. Shalom.

Anon 2.25 said...

2 typos 1 post = mesti tidur!

one of the concerned member said...

Ladies and Gentleman
I have spent some time doing some homework and calculations, we have 2 anonymous commenting in this blog, right from 15th Nov to 18th nov. In total anonymous and anonymous 2.25 had commented 80 comments. The interval is around 1 minute to around 20 minutes, other than lunch break. I had every hrs of the comments copied but it is too long for me to type in.
I humbly ask that TTG, please try to avoid further response..
We thank them for their time and effort and may the Lord bless them.

Anonymous said...

Justice Delayed is Justice Denied!!!!

Anon 2:25 (wannabe lawyer) - Stop Spamming (your whole day inane comments in this post are indicative of you purpose and mission) Here. Not only are you the DEVIL ADVOCATE, you are a lying dishonest gooneRAT, mother of all apple polisher or SYCOPHANT. You wax and wane eloquently, you seduce us with comments like ( I have some reservations about CIM at seeding stage but didn't say or do anything at all - ya LIAR ..." Oh what a tangled web we weave when we start to practice to decieve" says SPider and his gooneRATS). Your BINKERING and DELAY tactics are just like that of the Johnson SAGA (For tactics enlightenment TTG - just google "kctalk prince guneratnam johnson" and you will learn how the KC TTG group there were stymied by folks of the same ilk as anon 2:25).

Perhaps TTG can collaborate with the TTG group at "KCTALK forum Jonson and First Family" of Kansas City county.

Anonymous said...

Justice Delayed is Justice Denied!!!!


Similarly in Australia victims of Frank Houston were denied Justice.
Brian Houston delayed and binker and denied until already his dad already old confessed and Brian already entrencehed in AOG circles denounced his dad. What a self serving Shepherd.

At the end of the day, If he was genuinely interested in seeing justice done he will have reported it to the authorities.

Now anon 2:25 stop practicing your half lies here with your alter-ego honestly.

Anonymous said...

Justice Delayed is Justice Denied

Houston -- See one of his victims
http://www.christian-witness.org/aog/pf_emails.html
or google
http://www.google.com/search?q=peter+folwler+christian+witness&rls=com.microsoft:en-us:IE-SearchBox&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&sourceid=ie7&rlz=1I7GGLL

Anonymous said...

Anon 2:25 As usual I expect you to be sly, you have employ all kinds of tactics and pseudonyms even to misdirect readers here that you were the same anon (by slipping your anon comment in between) but contaminate his/her comments with your views. Having being found out you have now also appropriate other people's pseudonyms.

Check your honesty OK

Anonymous said...

Justice Delayed is Justice Denied!!!!

Our platform here is that we want TTG to prevail in CC so that God can be Glorified.

IT IS VERY SIMPLE!!!

Our church leaders (BOD), and our SP are expected, because of their positions and calling, to have a HIGHER responsibility and obligations in their actions and words. NO AMBIGUITY!!!!

Because of theabove

Every half truths that they utter, every misdirection or sidetrack or bait and switch carnal tactics that they employ are just PLAIN WRONG in the sight of GOD. God's sheep have been confused, lost, not fed or worst strayed because of the wrongdoings (ommitted or committed).

However Anon 2:25 (or other appropriated aliases etc) put the onus on us to prove that SP and his cohorts were not outright liars or thieves. That we have to prove SP is innocent until proven guilty.

SP had deployed lawyers, accountants and I'm not surprise hiring PR personnel ( including you Anon 2:25) to counter us.

This is against every BIBLICAL principles that we have been taught.

Anon 2.25 said...

Clarification - when I started my blogging here, I chose "Anonymous" whhich appears to cuase some confusion as there were more than one "Anonymous" posting. At SM's suggestion, I chose the moniker Anon 2.25. As far as I can check, no one else have posted under Anon 2.25 except yours truly. And after using Anon 2.25, I have not posted any comments under any other name/url or Anonymous. Not trying to be argumentative here.

Anon 2.25 said...

If CT wishes to verify that I am a bona fide Calvarite for the sake of accountability, my offer made earlier still stands. Give me a name and contact number to call. My one condition is that my identity not be revealed here on the blog or elsewhere without my expressed permission. I trust the leaders of TTG and am willing to take the risk.

Oldie said...

Hi everyone,

I believe Anon 2.25 is quoting Scriptures so that we are back on track with God (my belief, if not, then God please help Anon 2.25). Do not open such a lot of fire on Anon 2.25

To Anon 2.25 - you rightly quoted Scriptures that if one err to bring him/her before the congregation to deal with him/her and not to bring it to court.

Hope you understand the situation in CC - BOD has absolute power, SP hiding behind them as their head. There is no way we could bring SP to face the members to thrash out matters. SP does not simply see anyone - he chooses whom he wants to see! Try it and you will see how hard it is to get in to see him.

So you could see our hands are tied and no outside Christian organisation is brave enough to come in to help us. Thus the frustration and anger - not right but some just could not keep quiet.

Remember Anon 2.25 if you witness to someone and you keep on quoting Scriptures and hammering them in - that someone will be so cheesed off and you will not win him. We are mature Christians and know our Scriptures so there is no need to keep on quoting Scriptures hoping to defuse us.

JUST PRAY FOR cc!

Winslow said...

Good morning Anon 2.25 and everyone,

The Lord blessed me with a good nite rest, and it was so good that I woke up late for work this morning, half an hour to be precise, and only after my wife woke me up. Thank you Lord!

I am pleasantly surprised that my name is still being quoted, so I think I better have my piece as I start my day.

Having stated my stand very firmly in the last few months, I want to appeal to all concerned Calvarites, myself included, to mellow down on our choice of words, especially in bashing certain individuals, including myself, though some may immediately jump in and say I have ulterior motives in saying so.

I have been consistent in my comments, in that we should always pray while blogging, and blogging while praying, depending on your sequencing.

As I have commented some time ago, the two activities (for want of better words) - praying and blogging - can be carried our concurrently. Our Bible instructs us to pray without ceasing, and this means we can and should pray when we blog.

So this morning, say a prayer to our Lord before you start blogging here, and continue to pray as you continue to blog.

In this way, I think we can avoid the pitfall of using "very harsh words" against one another, even against SP.

Having said that, and before my fellow concerned Calvarites start hammering me, I leave it to the wisdom and personal conviction of everyone as to what they term as "very harsh words".

Who am I to define them for you, my fellow brothers and sisters? One man's meat is another man's poison. To me a word may be very harsh, but to another it's ok. To some a certain word may be deemed as name-calling, to others it's their way of expressing their emotional self, otherwise they may blow up, figuratively I mean.

So pray and blog, and blog and pray. The choice is ours, and may we make THE wiser choice today. And I believe God will be pleased.

God bless,
Winslow

Winslow said...

And by the way, Anon 2.25, I'll take up your offer. Email me at winslow.wong@gmail.com, and I will keep your identity confidential. I won't even tell it to my wife. You have my word. God bless, Winslow.

Bamboo Conspiracy said...

THE FIGHT OF FAITH! - ARE YOU A TROUBLER?

To those on the side of TTG - here is a spiritual advice from one of the greatest missionary and Christian Leader - Norman Grubb!

My friends in the US recently send me some old manuscripts of Missionary Norman Grubb (see www.normangrubb.com for more information). I am currently using imaging technology to convert the old manuscript to readable form for publication next year. As I was flipping through the old manuscript I came across the following lines written by Norman which seemed so apt for all of us.

It reads:
1 Kings 18:17: When he saw Elijah, he said to him, "Is that you, you troubler of Israel?"

"When Elijah met Ahab, Ahab said what 'flesh' always says, "YOU TROUBLER". God bless you if Christians "walking in the flesh" see you as a troubler. If you are not a troubler you haven't gotten very far yet. If you are walking close to the heart of God, you will be a troubler. This is because, there is no liberation without offence, that is, the offense of the cross. That is why Jesus wept, because those He came for did not comprehend the offence of the cross.

So for you to be an offence to them is a blessing to them, because it will cause them to examine themselves in the light of the Cross and ask are they walking according to the flesh or the spirit. It is really the first sign of grace in them because grace has to start negatively. Through their opposition to you, their misery, wrongness and darkness, they are being prepared for the light. So for you to be an offence to them is a blessing to them. though, of course, they won't feel like it."

From Elijah by Norman Grubb (in preparation for publication)

Something to ponder as we enter 2009!

Vijay
www.normangrubb.com

"POLICE and AUTHORITY" said...

I am sorry to those who think that anonymous or anonymous 2.25 is a Godly person, he/she should not even blog and become a parasite in this place. We are only commenting here mainly on CIM issue right now, and he/she talk rubbish all the time, if we need scripture, we go bibile class, cell group, church. The only obvious reason is these ppl want to avoid discussing the BIGGEST SCANDAL in calvarytoday-CIM

To concerned calvarites, please focus on the CIM again. I read on the statement from the POST, CIM membership roll will be rectified accordingly; does it mean that this is the time upon the rectification, AOG must also act? because by virtue of rectifiying the membership, it meant some act of mishandling and misconduct had taken place, which is unbecoming of a pastor to act as such, AOG, in this instant must act to take disciplinary action on SP for misconduct according to the AOG constitution and rules which anyone can download from the website and read.

I appeal to AOG and all chritian in Malaysia, in the world, please unite with Calvarytoday and the TTG to take action on our senior pastor in calvary church, we have only one senior pastor, the other one is the wife.

I dont think any of us in TTG and concerned calvarites will just give up or stop pursuing because of some people trying to be our 'spiritual' director in this blog. The other reason is , we have come so far, you guys think that we will just give up? No, is the answer. No matter how long, how tough, our mission GOES ON.

To my friend whom I knOw, who cant wait to go to the POLICE, please go ahead, dont need to wait for signal anymore.

Anon 2.25 said...

Dear Brother Winslow, thank you for offering to be my accountability check. An email awaits you.

Friends, my post early this morning has one and only one concern -- that we treat each other kindly as in the body of Christ. You don't have to respond to my comments. And I do not want to start a war of words. If you do respond to my comments, please confine your remarks to just that -- the need for civil dialogue.

As for SP, many of his flaws are visible to all and sundry -- his "high and mighty demeanor" his abusive preaching of late, his extravagant lifestyle, I could go on ...

As to some of the alleged wrong-doings on his part, I am less sure. Particularly, I am not sure if he has mislead NECF in his application of CIM for NECF membership. I have said enough on this. I have nothing more to add on this point.

I have a busy day ahead of me today, so it will be unlikely for me to respond to any more comments till maybe this evening.

May the Lord bless you all and you have a good day.

Anon 2.25 said...

Dear Brother Winslow, thank you for offering to be my accountability check. An email awaits you.

Friends, my post early this morning has one and only one concern -- that we treat each other kindly as in the body of Christ. You don't have to respond to my comments. And I do not want to start a war of words. If you do respond to my comments, please confine your remarks to just that -- the need for civil dialogue.

As for SP, many of his flaws are visible to all and sundry -- his "high and mighty demeanor" his abusive preaching of late, his extravagant lifestyle, I could go on ...

As to some of the alleged wrong-doings on his part, I am less sure. Particularly, I am not sure if he has mislead NECF in his application of CIM for NECF membership. I have said enough on this. I have nothing more to add on this point.

I have a busy day ahead of me today, so it will be unlikely for me to respond to any more comments till maybe this evening.

May the Lord bless you all and you have a good day.

Move Forward said...

The fundamental intention and desire must be unity and reconciliation. If this is acheived by SP stepping down, that's fine. But the cause is not to "get rid" of SP because he is "the source of the trouble". Perhaps in a sense he is as in he holds the "key" to resolving many of the issues the CC is facing today. But sometimes all I sense is this anger, vengence spirit. Maybe we can tone down on this somewhat but rather discuss/propose what we can do to ... move forward!

FULLACTION said...

To: TTG and concerned calvarites

first, are we all not being christlike and gentle? we had tried all means, write letter, email, meet the BOD, talk to the leaders, sign petition, appeal to the church, wait for EGM. NO answer, No response, No respect even for all that we have done and mentioned. And, this fellow-anonymous 2.25 accused rubbish on us again. We waited for almost 9 mths after AGM, nothing happened...
almost 4 mths after EGM, still nothing happen..so wat is love? from both SP and anonymous 2.25.. rubbish...love, he preached so hard yesterday nite in this blog, similar to SP preaching, every time when he preached, hard preaching.

ACTION please.we dont want to talk anymore. I still close and call for HARD AND TOUGH ACTION. DONT TALK LOVE.. we know wat is LOVE. LOVE SP to destroy him--that is my answer.

love of money said...

A ruler who is wicked is like a wild, hungry animal that is looking to devour its prey. They are without God's understanding and are oppressors; however, if rulers hate covetousness and unjust gain, they will reign longer and live longer.

Wicked people who rule in positions of authority who are covetous, will always oppress those under them. These kinds of rulers never think about the poor, but rather use them for their own selfish means. They really are like a "beastly" animal. In the book of Revelation, the Lord uses the description of a "beast" to describe a system that will rule in the earth. The root of this system is ruled by the love of money. This love of money is not only a snare to rulers, but also a snare to the poor as well. It is also a snare to the church.

integrity said...

God primarily called pastors to shepherd the flock of Christ, not to manage the finances of the church.

In addition, if pastors delegate paying bills, writing checks (pastors should neither sign nor cosign checks), collecting money, depositing money, and making large purchases to trustworthy financial administrators who have a reputation of honesty, they will eliminate suspicion and questions of mismanagement before the questions arise.

Even though the pastor may not physically handle any of the money or write any checks, he or she is ultimately responsible for good stewardship and faithful management of the finances of the church.

Because pastors hold a position of trust in the opinion of most members of a congregation, pastors must avoid situations that may tend to lead to mistrust or suspicions of financial mismanagement by the pastor.

integrity said...

good article for reading

www.crown.org/library/ViewArticle.aspx?ArticleId=689

untrue said...

Let us focus on the CT topic on the CIM to be de-registered by NECF.

First and foremost we agreed that CIM is SP personal ministry and the BOD was kind enough to inform the church members that RM30k was given as seed fund. However, the additional RM200k contribution from Calvary Church Misssion Dept to CIM was not make publicly known to CC members. It was during the AGM March that spark off the revelations. Our BOD was then quick to response during last EGM that it was gift of RM1mil to CIM and with immediate effect, CIM is independent.

Now CT said it is going to be -de registered by NECF. I believe that CT must have document to support and hence for easy clarifications just put that document on the blog! Settle CT?

Then now if CIM is independent; what is the line of action CC members will do and also our BOD will do to recitfy the situations.

1. For certain, BOD would like to put the CIM back to extend ministry of CC so that it can continue to be legally existence.
2. If not CIM is no longer a Christian body recognised by NECF.
3. The BOD will use their big muscle again- as usual; under the constitution, passed their own BOD's resolution and CIM become EM of CC. Then all issues of illegal settle!
4. The CC members can't do much but can raised a petition for an EGM seeking members for the resolution to not approve CIM to be EM of CC and getting members approval by secret ballots votes-if the CC members are keen to do so.. afterall another long night of debate in the church!!
5. Now if the CC members feel that, para 4 will not carry weight they must react immediately like:
a) report to the AG Council and ask the council to investigate. If 2000 members write there is no reasons for AG not to investigate.
b) if AG does not want to investigate; write officially to the Ministry of Law as the licence to operate is authorised by the Minister of Law.-It is that simple.(have a look at stamp at the back of the church consitution handbook)
Notes:
It does not mean that only TTG people can write or file a complains and every one can do so!Once must know reporting to authorities does not mean difficulty but it is anyone who desires to do so. If any Christian brother who is doing the same to you like SP but is not a senior pastor; ask yourself would you have taken legal actions or report to authorities? Hence, those who keep asking TTG to report to authorities can do so themselves; TTG can also do so; afterall it is as easy like reporting a lost item like cars!

Once again, the future of CC is the desire of all the members with the guidance of the holy spirit. It must be colletive actions.If all of us want to leave the church and join SIB/DMC let us go together! If all of us love the church and want to put it in prospective, then all 2000 members of CC (by the way not 10,000)must oust SP and the entire BOD so that we can revive the church back to it glory. Don't be denial and easily to forgive but never intent to forget!! Members do the right approaches and whether it is true or untrue; definitly the holy spirit will touch individual. Be co-operative and move with the spirit. If the sermons bit you up; all of us just walk out and do not stay on!! Be bold and again don't be denial. Feel the spirit that God timing is now!! Untrue or true is entirely in you hands too!!

NeNe said...

Dear Untrue,

I quote you "Now CT said it is going to be deregistered by NECF." Does "it" refer to CT or CIM? If it's CT, it's wrong because CT was never registered with NECF, or is? Then "it" must refer to CIM.

Is that true, untrue? Now you got me all confused.

obvious said...

Dear All

Do not be dismayed or disheartened. Like it or not, we have to accept the fact that not everyone will support us fully in our quest for truth and righteousness. Some choose to stay ‘neutral’ whilst others are downright unreasonable and abusive towards the TTG’s efforts.

Like someone mentioned, let’s move forward from here and see what SP will do with CIM since it is now no longer a legitimate organization. NECF has taken a bold step to deregister CIM but they will still need to maintain a neutral stand on this as what is happening in CC is an internal issue. I believe that they have done their part and perhaps, it is now AG Council’s turn to STEP UP to their calling and cast their fear of MEN aside to do what is right.

If SP really resorts to parking CIM back to an extended ministry under CC, I think we should perhaps hold a peaceful protest outside CC’s DP office one fine Saturday morning. This may seem too drastic for some of you but perhaps we might need to start being drastic as this saga has dragged on way too long. It is neither beneficial for us as a Christian or for CC as a church if this conflict were to go on for the next year or so. The person responsible, SP, needs to be accountable for his wrong doings especially if he truly loves the church. Sadly, based on how SP has been handling these issues over the past many months, may I safely conclude that he does not love the church and is more concerned about protecting himself.

I was reading the article in NST on CCC the other day and when I saw that DS had proudly proclaimed that we have 10,000 members, I did not know whether to laugh in disbelief or cry with disappointment that our pastors would still go on telling such a lie to the public. Non Christians who read that article and then visit our church would turn away in disgust when they see that we are nowhere close to 10,000 members as what we have so arrogantly announced. I think 3,000 (on a good day) would be a more realistic figure. DS, do we really have to resort to telling lies in order to bring up CC’s status as a ‘fountain head church’?

I believe that the earlier prophecy on CC being a fountainhead church refers to the fact that CC, who has over the years, undeniably raised and trained up many good leaders and members who are always ready to serve in any way. But many of these members and good leaders have eventually left CC (for different reasons) and have gone to other churches to serve and be a blessing to other churches. So, did the prophecy come to pass? Yes, it did but not in the way our pastors expected it to be. Our attendance has been stagnant over the past many years because eventhough there are new people joining the church, many capable and experienced calvarites have also decided to leave CC. Overall, CC is at the losing end as they are losing many faithful members and if nothing is done to solve our current predicament, many more will leave and all that will be left in CCC is the actual fountain in front of the building.

Ah Beng No. 2 said...

Dear Untrue,

Wah, you're real hot lah! I can understand your deep hurt and want to see justice carried out clean and quick.

However, just a word of caution on proposed action 5(a) "if AG does not want to investigate, write officially to the Ministry of Law as the licence to operate is authorised by the Minister of Law.".

My advice is NOT to do it as it will far-reaching implications for some 400 AG churches in Malaysia. Think carefully, and pray earnestly for God's direction. This is definitely not the way forward. We need to explore other options.

God bless, and have a nice lunch. Maybe some nasi briyani with beef, and tea tarik. I'm going for lunch. See you later.

Ah Beng No. 2 said...

Sorry, it should be action 5(b). Must be thinking of nasi briyani for lunch. Thanks.

GOD REIGNS said...

Dear untrue
I agree with you fully on the following:
5a) report to the AG Council and ask the council to investigate. If 2000 members write there is no reasons for AG not to investigate.

For the sake of the church
Yes, let's write to AG Council.

For your info, I have done that.
And I encourage all CC members to do the same if you really love CC.
Please do!!!!!!

Everyday I am praying that God will give AG Council wisdom and boldness to do the right thing.
Let God be Glorified once again. Let's pray for the anointing to be in CC again

OUR GOD REIGNS

Quaking shakeup needed said...

So what Ah Beng No 2? if SP is not taking up his responsibility and AG council also not taking up responsibility..who else ?? The message is clear, he had rectified thru a lawyer( His CIM) and now that it was discovered he had either magically or technically duped NECF, and causing such embarassment to the entire christian community, what else can we as a christian do? still cover up for him or exposed him? and yet we are so healpless, its time for all other AG leaders and pastors to open up their eyes for trying to play with the law and legality. What is wrong if it is God's will to clean and shake the entire AOG churches?

Like the story of Jonah, we need a big shakeup. too many spiritual abuses happening in AG and churches.

pray n write said...

YES, TO GOD REIGNS

Let's each of us do our part.
I am very sure they are a lots of CC members that are gifted with words.
So instead of spending your time blogging, let's be use by God to write a letter to AG Council.

Do Pray and write

4 the youth said...

Dear untrue,

You can write very well,
I hope you will write to AG Council.

Let's do it for the next generation.
The youth in our church needs to see the anointing in CC.
The youth in our church needs to experience God's anointing.

Do it for the youth who will be the leaders of tommorrow

pooi fook said...

Wah, God reigns

You really, really wrote to AG Council???????

Pooi fook!!!!
Pooi fook!!!!

Anon 2.25 and Honestly should also follow if you really, really want to see TRUTH, TRANSPARENCY AND GOOD GOVERNANCE.

WRITE TO AG COUNCIL instead of writing here.
WASTING time here

Ah Heng said...

Pooi Fook,

It's NOT wasting time here. It's good time management, spend some time blogging, some time writing to AG Council, some time praying, some time reading Bible, some time writing to BNM, some time writing to IRB, some time writing to WAGRA, some time writing to Pentencostal World Fellowship, some time writing to BOD (maybe not as it's really a waste of time).

Think time management, Pooi Fook.

Concerned said...

i think things are getting a bit out of hand. i'm a TTG supporter but i believe that there is truth in what some are saying about those here NEED to be careful in what you say, SIMPLY BECAUSE at the end of the day, we are all accountable to God.

surely, in the process of 'driving evil deeds out' from CC, do YOU want to end up being WRONG in the eyes of God?

so, i think everyone needs to CALM DOWN, think from God's perspective and let's not end up being WRONG in God's eyes.


and before you start being paranoid and start calling me a spy or liar (about me being a TTG supporter), let it be known that i have suffered at the hands of SP and co as well.

pray 4 exco said...

dear concerned

Yes, we are all accountable to God in our doings.
I agreed with Pooi Fook, write to AG Council so that we will not end up being WRONG in God's eyes.

AG exco committee are anointed pastors that God has raised up.
I believe they can and will do a good job.

Let's pray for AG Council exco committee

Bamboo Conspiracy said...

Dear Obvious

Have you ever wondered why the Lord directed me to get involved in this Blog?.. In fact I kept resisting the Lord but I had to because the Lord has shown me His vision for Calvary Church Malaysia. The vision is that Calvary Church will become one of His models for other Churches. Is this not according to the prophesy you just mentioned which I am now hearing for the first time? I am delighted - this is confirmation that His vision is True.

What Calvary Church is experiencing now are the birth pangs - the dark night of the soul - before the new dawn of blessing. I sincerely request Calvarities not to leave the Church but stay on and stand on faith for a little while longer. He will reward you for your faithfulness. Do not be like Abraham who ran of to Egypt when there was trouble. Be like Elijah who stayed by the dying brook until there was no water. He only moved when He heard from God to move to Zarephath (1King17).

Your present suffering is necessary. Before, God can make Calvary Church to be the model church; He has to shake it down to its foundation. Everything that needs to be shaken will be shaken but it is God because after the shaking, God will rebuild His Church and the gates of hell cannot prevail against it.

I am not a Calvarite but I have seen the vision - what more you who are from Calvary. You may ask how came I know this. I know because I HAVE TASTED THE LORD AND HE IS GOOD. HE IS LOVE UNSPEAKABLE. TIME AND AGAIN HE HAS DELIVERED US FROM DIFFICULT SITUATION. IS IT NOT TIME YOU TOO TASTED AND PROVED THAT THE LORD IS GOOD TO THOSE WHO TRUST HIM? YOU CANNOT LOSE BY STAYING IN CALVARY. YOU ARE IN HIS CHILD AND THAT IS ALL THAT MATTERS!

I am not taking about how strong your faith is or how much you pray or worship. I am talking to you as a child of God. All of heaven's forces are at your disposal. ALL HE ASKS IS THAT YOU BELIEVE.

If HE who is LOVE can send HIS ONLY SON TO DIE FOR YOU, DO YOU THINK HE HAS NOT SEEN YOUR SUFFERING? He will deliver you in such a way that you will know it is HIM. He will make a way where there seems no way and deliver you from the cruel taskmasters. He will raise a 'Moses' from unknown source to do it. I only ask you BELIEVE.

You are living in the days of miracle and you will witness His power to do the impossible. Calvarities - watch for the new dawn and the miracle of God. You will not be a part of it, if you leave. In the days of Elijah, God hid the prophets from Jezebel and He has done the same.

There are GOOD LEADERS in your church and they can feed you in the meantime - go find them. Some of them may be hidden until His time. DON'T LEAVE!

CHRIST IN YOU THE HOPE OF GLORY

Vijay
www.normangrubb.com

Model Church? said...

Calvary Church will become one of His models for other Churches (in Malaysia I presume)? There are many, many good (model) churches in Malaysia. Don't really think that it is the vision for Calvary Church to be a "model" as advocated by Vijay.

Model Church? said...

Sorry - model in what sense? Transparent, God-fearing, etc... are you (Vijay) saying that the other churches in Malaysia are lacking? What basis? Please speak more carefully - don't think it is God's vision.

roms8.28 said...

Dear Dr. Vijay

Thank you for sharing those touching words. Tears roll down as I read your comments. And I said AMEN and AMEN.

God is Good, He has definitely brought you along to confirmed what we are doing for Calvary Church.

I am one of those 'oldies' but young at heart, even before SP came in. We have indeed TASTED THE LORD AND KNOW THAT HE IS GOOD.

It is HIS FAITHFULNESS that we can partake of HIM.
I BELIEVE GOD WILL DELIVER US IN HIS TIME.

Personally, this whole 'saga' has enriched my own prayer life.

Truly Roms.8:28 says it all
All things work for good to those who love Him.
AMEN,AMEN

Simpleman said...

Model Church?

I think Dr Jay has a point. If I understand him correctly, his idea of CC as a model church is not CC in its present state, which most of us agree is quite pathetic to say the least, but it's when CC is restored to its fullness in God's time. That's way he meant, am I right Dr Jay?

Please pray for discernment before commenting so that we don't shoot down good proposals, ideas, etc.

Pray and blog, blog and pray, that's the way forward. God bless.

Model Church? said...

My question is whether he is saying that the other churches in Malaysia are lacking in these areas? That is what a "model" is suppose to do - show others what is/to follow. If this is the conviction - what is the basis to say or imply that the other churches in Malaysia are all falling short?

Joseph Gerard said...

Received these verses from a pastor last night. Whenever this pastor smses me biblical verses, it's always very appropriate, just as though the Holy Spirit has used him to pass me a message for the situations I'm going through. I truly praise and thank God for this pastor.

"Wait in hope for the Lord. He is our help and our shield. In Him our hearts rejoice for we trust in His holy name." Psalm 33:20-21

God bless.

'God is at work' said...

HALLELUJAH!

Lord God, in the name of Jesus, we thank You for yet another miracle! Lord, we continue to place our trust in You as You orchestrate events towards restoring this house of Yours.

Lord, continue to anoint the TTG and use them mightily as they clean up Calvary Church. Bless them with Your wisdom and order every step that they take.

Thank You, Lord!

4 the 2nd generation said...

For those who are interested to write to AG Council, info as follows:

The Assemblies of God General Council,
No.95 Jalan Gasing,
46000 Petaling Jaya, Selangor Darul Ehsan, Malaysia

Attn: The AG Superintendent
Pastor Ong Sek Liang

Simpleman said...

Dr Jay,

My hat off to you. Thank you for your concern, word of wisdom and encouragement, not only for us at CC but for the Church of Jesus Christ in Malaysia, and internationally.

Yes, the dawn is breaking, the Light is shining through. God's showing us the way forward.

Fellow Calvarites, be of good cheer. God has heard our cry for help and restoration. God bless.

jesus reigns said...

Our Heavenly Father,

Thank for your faithfulness unto us.
Great is THY faithfulness

Forgive us of our wrong doings and lead us to the path of righteousness.

Lord, put your hands upon the TTG and also upon AG EXCO committee. Lead them and guide them in their decisions on CC matters.

Father God, I pray for miracles for CC. Lord, glorified your HOLY Name in this church.

Reign King Jesus reign, over all the issues of this church
Let CC be fill with the Glory of the Lord.

Reign King Jesus reign. AMEN

NeNe said...

Wake from your sleep all you weary ones
Who are leary of the night
Look to the east all you dreary ones
Who are waiting for the light

Dawn is breaking and a new day is born
The world is singing the song of the dawn
Birds are singing
Hear them welcome the morn
They're sweetly singing the song of the dawn

Yesterday the sky was grey
Look this morning they're blue
The smiling sun tells everyone
Come and start life anew
Song of the Dawn

Sing hallelujah
For the dark night is gone
The world is singing the song of the dawn
Sing hallelujah
For the dark night is gone
The world is singing the song of the dawn

obvious said...

Dear Dr Vijay

Thank you for your encouragement to us Calvarites. What you have mentioned makes sense indeed. I do believe that God has a great plan for His church in Malaysia, and perhaps what is happening in Calvary Church will not only make us stronger and wiser but it will also serve as a lesson for all the other churches in the country, ie. that the Devil is like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour and no one, not even pastors, are exempted from the temptation of sin.

You are right, we cannot leave at this moment, we need to keep on fighting the good fight of faith and persevere on. We hope too that like you, christians from other churches will also uphold us and the TTG group in prayer. And we hope too, that like you, the AG Council will speak up and do their part.

P.U.S.H. – Pray Until Something Happens!

one crook too many said...

to the person who posted the link on KC star exposes Ps Jerry Johnston...thank u thank u.didnt know there was another brave ttg group in usa too, me not familiar with jerry johnston but he sounds like a crook just like prince g here....gosh,why so many crooks becoming pastors or pastors becoming crooks nowdays

one crook too many said...

In the AOG Memorandum & Constitution of By-Laws,violations of christian principals that requires disciplinary action by the AOG council include:
(a) Irresponsible action contributing to church split
(b)Embezzlement of funds under trust of breach of trust

When the Exec Committee receives a complaint in writing or suspects that a credential minister has committed misconduct, an investigation may be carried out immediately.
----------------
My question is, has anyone written a letter to AG Council yet? If so, they should be carrying out an investigation on PRINCE GUNERATNAM by now.

PRINCE GUNERATNAM HAS VIOLATED CHRISTIAN PRINCIPALS AND NEEDS DISCIPLINARY ACTION NOW. Rev Ong Sek Leang, don't be afraid of Prince Guneratnam. He is but a mere mortal. Ask yrself, What Would Jesus Do? Would Jesus just sit back and do nothing simply because he wanted to respect Prince Guneratnam although it is so obvious that Prince Guneratnam has embezzled church funds and has also caused church split?

Am I Right? said...

Dear One Crook Too Many,

If it is so obvious to you, then why are you not writing to the AOG instead of asking others to write?

TortoisePW said...

If the BOD use their muscle this time and abuse the power, do you think that the concerned calvarites would let go of them? No, no..I believe this time without members ractification and knowldege, surely they will be sued by some members. BOD, dont you ever behave like "tortoise" --(Mr PW's idol) anymore, stretch out your neck, long and clear,so that, everybody in the church can see your head, and lift up your head, no more hiding. The shell of the tortoise is suppose to be strong and tough, so you should know strong and tough body is use for the purpose to cover and protect the body. So , BOD, your job is to protect the member( the body or christ in cc), read the latest article posted in beritacalvary please, it is meant for the BOD, the responsibility of the board.

Nevertheless, we no longer trusted and respect the current BOD, sometimes, looking at the way they talked, they are worse than non christian. They are not capable in handling thier job, they are only good to lament about how much sacrifice they had made! Please, BOD, resign or else you will be sacked...we dont like you guys keeping giving excuses, if you no good, step down..many good ones are waiting to fill your vacancy. only SP alone think that you are good.

God's warrior said...

Dear fellow warriors for the Lord,

I've personally written to the AG. So be patient, and please be mindful of our choice of words as many are blogging here. Remember, we must be a good testimony for the Lord. God bless.

one crook too many said...

hello, am I right, I am not asking other ppl to write. I am just asking whether anyone has written to AG Council yet.No harm finding out right?

God's warrior, thank u for the update

Anon 2.25 said...

*looks right, looks left, and right again, and tip-toes nervously into the open*

Dear friends,

It's a very liberating feeling not seeing a post by Anon 2.25 for 12 whole hours. :)
For anyone who may be interested to know(pretty presumptous of me eh?), I have sent an email to Winslow, and he called and we talked ...
I apologize to anyone who felt offended at numerous scriptures I posted and the way they were posted. I believe I was rather insensitive to those who were deeply hurt by the CC saga. Please allow me to say that it was never my intention to hurt anyone, as Jesus says that if we should should stumble any of his "little ones" it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened around his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea (Matthew 18:6). As a Christian for almost 40 years, I should know better. Please forgive me.
The reason I did what I did was simply to be quiet and reflect on God's words. I never meant to "preach." Preaching (using our own words) can be distorted. You have had enough of that, you know what I mean. Anyways, we can't argue with the "pure" Word of God. I deliberately tried to select passages that we probably know already in what I hope would be a fresh paraphrase that we may perhaps read His word in a way we perhaps have not read before. Many of the familiar passages appeared "new" even to me in "The Message." The reason I quoted the passages without comments is simply to allow the Spirit to speak to us (me included) as He wills.
I hope you will accept my apology and explanation.
Oh, one other thing, once I get my juices going, I tend to get carried away ... wow, 80 posts in the space of 2 days, my bad! I will try to exercise more self-control.
Blessings and Peace to all.

One final plea, please, please, please don't ask Winslow who I am.

One Day said...

Dear Anon 2.25,

Dont worry. We will not ask.

When the time is right, you will reveal yourself.

Looks like you are in the sixties.

Ah Heng said...

Dear one crook too many,

Of course no harm finding out. Anyway, you can also write in to AG. More people write in, the better. Cheers!

Am I Right said...

Dear One Crook Too Many,

Thanks for enlightening us on the AOG Constitution. Its great.

It says that AOG will have to investigate if one writes in to them. Looks like they have to do it.

Guilty or not, they have to investigate. The outcome will have to be made known to the complainant.

Good work.

Winslow said...

Dear all,

Yes, Anon 2.25 emailed me and we spoke at length. I've given Anon 2.25 my word, so don't ask me who Anon 2.25 is when you see me. My wife tried but I told her off (my telling off her is half jokingly, otherwise tak boleh tidur sama katil).

All I can say is, Anon 2.25 is very sincere, no pretense at all, and is on the side of Truth. And He loves God. Don't ask me how I know, I know when I am in the know.

Have another goodnite rest in the Lord. Peace be until you all. And remember to pray and blog, and blog and pray.

God bless. Winslow

Anonymous said...

Correction. Peace be unto you all.

Nite-nite. Winslow

Wondering said...

Dear Winslow,

Since when Anon 2.25 becomes God? You addressed him as HE!!!

So that means he is not a housewife.

Winslow said...

Sorry, in blogging, cap or no cap, can pakai but in this case, sorry it's no cap. Anon 2.25 loves God.

Winslow said...

Dear Wondering,

Housewife is Karen. As to Anon 2.25, my lips are zipped.

God bless.

Wondering said...

Dear Winslow,

Dont worry, we wont dig it out from you.

But the fact that, Anon 2.25 can come out in the open, proves his sincerity, unlike some other bloggers.

Anonymous said...

Beware of Wolf in Sheep's Clothing



Vijay Vijay Paramsothy. Please Stop this Nonsense!!!
You have inundated this Blog with your inane and self serving comments just as your alter ego Anon 2:25.

You wax and wane eloquently, you seduce us with comments like " offering your services in Church TT Governance 101 etc"

We need a confirmed and definitive notification that CIM is DEREGISTERED. Are you able to delivered it??? WALK THE TALK. UNTIL THEN YOU ARE A CARPETBAGGER OR AT WORST A GOONERARAT THAT HAS WORMED YOUR WAY INTO OUR CONFIDENCE.

Else stop confusing and confounding us. For you remind me of a wolf in sheep's clothing by interposing and imposing on us Calvarites. PROV 6:12-19

Stop spouting nonsense about post model CC church before we cross the bridge.


Stop this mercenary manipulation.

"THESE ARE MY PERSONAL VIEWS AND NOT NECESSARILY THE VIEWS OF THE OTHER MEMBERS OF TTG."

Anonymous said...

Sorry to be a Party Pooper says

As I said before the battle has just begun.

Anonymous said...

Sorry to be a Party Pooper Says

About our Tan Sri Dr. Datuk SP Prince Guneratnam
He is a as a formidable figure - held key leadership positions both locally and worldwide - being vice-chairman of the World Assemblies of God Fellowship and chairman of both the Christian Federation of Malaysia and the National Evangelical Christian Fellowship (NECF) of Malaysia.

In contrast


Frank Houston (born William Francis Houston; 1926 – 8 November 2004), was a Pentecostal Christian pastor in the Assemblies of God in New Zealand and Australia.

He commenced ministry training as a Salvation Army officer shortly after turning 18. He married Hazel and they had five children. They transferred to the Baptist church, and later to the Assemblies of God in New Zealand. Houston founded his first Assemblies of God ministry at Lower Hutt in 1960, and served as the superintendent of the Assemblies of God in New Zealand from 1965 to 1971.

In 1977 he and his family moved to Sydney, and founded the Sydney Christian Life Centre in "Sherbrooke Hall" in Double Bay, which was not affiliated with any denomination in its first decade, but then became an Assemblies of God church. With further growth it moved to Darlinghurst, and then warehouse premises in the inner Sydney suburb of Waterloo, which housed a 2,000 seat auditorium, a Bible and Creative Arts College, and many other ministry arms. Known in the church as "the Bishop"[1] he was also involved in over twenty CLCs being opened throughout New South Wales, Australia and overseas. Houston served as pastor there for more than two decades and in senior positions within the Assemblies of God in Australia.

In 2000 he was advised to resign his ministerial credentials by his own son, Brian Houston the National President of the Assemblies of God in Australia, after Houston confessed to the sexual abuse of young male members of his New Zealand congregation.[2]

Contrary to the requirements of New South Wales child protection legislation neither Brian Houston nor the AOG administration reported the matters to the police and Frank Houston was never charged or convicted. However, Houston did resign, living in Hillsong-owned accommodation until his death in 2004. [2][3]

After consultation amongst senior pastoral staff of the church and Brian Houston, a pastor of a daughter church, Hillsong Church, the churches were merged and Sydney CLC became its second campus.

In August 2007 further allegations emerged that Houston had sexually abused a trainee pastor during counselling sessions in the early 1980s.[4]

From Wiki

Anonymous said...

Sorry to be a Party Pooper Says

About our Tan Sri Dr. Datuk SP Prince Guneratnam
He is a as a formidable figure - held key leadership positions both locally and worldwide - being vice-chairman of the World Assemblies of God Fellowship and chairman of both the Christian Federation of Malaysia and the National Evangelical Christian Fellowship (NECF) of Malaysia.

In contrast


Frank Houston (born William Francis Houston; 1926 – 8 November 2004), was a Pentecostal Christian pastor in the Assemblies of God in New Zealand and Australia.

He commenced ministry training as a Salvation Army officer shortly after turning 18. He married Hazel and they had five children. They transferred to the Baptist church, and later to the Assemblies of God in New Zealand. Houston founded his first Assemblies of God ministry at Lower Hutt in 1960, and served as the superintendent of the Assemblies of God in New Zealand from 1965 to 1971.

In 1977 he and his family moved to Sydney, and founded the Sydney Christian Life Centre in "Sherbrooke Hall" in Double Bay, which was not affiliated with any denomination in its first decade, but then became an Assemblies of God church. With further growth it moved to Darlinghurst, and then warehouse premises in the inner Sydney suburb of Waterloo, which housed a 2,000 seat auditorium, a Bible and Creative Arts College, and many other ministry arms. Known in the church as "the Bishop"[1] he was also involved in over twenty CLCs being opened throughout New South Wales, Australia and overseas. Houston served as pastor there for more than two decades and in senior positions within the Assemblies of God in Australia.

In 2000 he was advised to resign his ministerial credentials by his own son, Brian Houston the National President of the Assemblies of God in Australia, after Houston confessed to the sexual abuse of young male members of his New Zealand congregation.[2]

Contrary to the requirements of New South Wales child protection legislation neither Brian Houston nor the AOG administration reported the matters to the police and Frank Houston was never charged or convicted. However, Houston did resign, living in Hillsong-owned accommodation until his death in 2004. [2][3]

After consultation amongst senior pastoral staff of the church and Brian Houston, a pastor of a daughter church, Hillsong Church, the churches were merged and Sydney CLC became its second campus.

In August 2007 further allegations emerged that Houston had sexually abused a trainee pastor during counselling sessions in the early 1980s.[4]

From Wiki

Anonymous said...

The above comments were submitted because of our overseas audience in US (especially Baton Rouge, Louisiana) Australia and New Zealand interests in CT blogspot the last few days !!!

Winslow said...

Dear Anonymous who cried "Beware of Wolf in Sheep's Clothing",

Hold it my brother/sister. Don't be so quick to label others. Dr Jay is sincere, without pretense and I sense in my spirit he loves God and wants to see TTG not only in CC but in every local church.

Please pray for God's discrenment before you rebuke others. We need to be in line with the Spirit of God.

Ah Heng said...

Dear Anonymous who said "Beware of Wolf in Sheep's Clothing",

I rebuke your rebuke and cursing on Dr Jay. Please hold your fire. And by the way, I doubt you are TTG supporter. You could be planted to create confusion yourself. If you are sincere, reveal yourself and don't shoot aimlessly.

Pray first.

Bamboo Conspiracy said...

Dear Anonymous

I apologice if my blog has offended you. It was mainly for those who have written to me because they are so discouraged. There is much evidence in the blog that there are many hurting souls.

Some have asked for possible Church models in the post Calvary era - hence the sharing.

I spoke on the subject of intercession because I wanted to encourage those who are called to continue to interceed. The present leadership stronghold in Calvary Church and Christian Organisations can only be broken by the Lord and intercession is the strongest weapon.

As for your request that you need a confirmed and definitive notification that CIM is DEREGISTERED, I have done what I can behind the scene and keep in touch with relevant people via e-mails. Kindly refer to my Blog dated: November 16, 2008 5:55 AM.

Sorry, Anonymous, I wished I could have done more to address your request but I will continue to interceed that the Lord accomplish what I cannot do personally.

I have witnessed your original thoughts and other positive contribution in the blog. Continue the good fight of faith brothe/sister, for the Lord will surely give you victory. Looking forward to meeting you in the post Calvary era and rejoice together for the Lord is good.

Logging off.

Vijay

Anon 2.25 said...

Dear friends,

Alter-ego: definition
from answers.com

n.
Another side of oneself; a second self.
An intimate friend or a constant companion.

(http://www.answers.com/topic/alter-ego)

I affirm that I am neither Dr Jay or, as alleged earlier probably by the same blogger, "honestly"

Neither do I know Dr Jay personally nor have been in contact with him.

I have no idea who "honestly" is.

Again, after adopting Anon 2.25 as my moniker, I have chosen to post solely as such. (I made one slip, and posted as Anon 2.2)

Using too many monikers may even confuse myself, an oldie (no, I am not "oldie" either) such as me. :)

Dear Winslow, and others, thank you for your kind words and allowing me to keep my anonymity. As "One Day" says, all will be revealed -- nothing remains hidden forever, especially on the Day of Lord.

Blessings and Peace to all.

Anon 2.25 said...

Dear "One Day"

I shall not take your bait :p

True facts about me that still affords me a measure of anonymity:

Been a Calvarite over 36 years, almost 40 years as Christian, not a housewife (Brother Winslow, don't worry about the slip; it happens :))

I could have accepted Christ at age 5, 15, 25 or 35 ... do the math ... nah, 75 is too old

Attending CCDH, CCDP, CCCH, or CCWC? Not telling! :)

Note to self -- that's your second post today, stop now and you will break your promise and flood the blog with more inane remarks. *slap*

Shalom

Meng-Meng said...

Dear friends

CIM AND LEADERSHIP is still the BIGGEST SCANDAL in calvary church and in calvarytoday's discussion. I think we have enough of our own problems here in cc, why not continue to write to AG and various auntorities by differnt one, I have done mine!

We want to focus and solve our problem first..

CIM must be dissolve and extended to returb back to calvary church main account, no compromise..

So, NECF, calvary church's board, mission department, extended ministry, AG, WAGRA, CARE and CARED AGENCY,Theb bank, had been involved one way or other. Most importantly AG and NECF, and WAGRA, The bank..somehow, they were being 'duped' by some 'magical' document.. so my respected parties who is reading here, please take action, dont wait for polices to do it..

I smell a rat! said...

Anonymous 6:24 am,

Please stop abusing Vijay. Vijay is giving us good advice, and I like his views on post Calvary era. YES! I can look forward to a new beginning for Calvary, a post-Guneratnam era!

You are obviously a 'mole,' pretending to be one of us but your comments betray you! You are obviously a SP supporter, perhaps even one of the APs or one of the Gunerats.

The reason why you rebuked Vijay is because you are scared that there will be a post-Guneratnam era!!

Roadblocks To Hell said...

Just to comment on Vijay's 19/11 comment on "The Fight Of Faith - Are You A Troubler?"... (I was away from the blog for just ONE DAY & voila! so many comments! It is taking me quite a while to read through them!)....

An interesting thought, Dr. Vijay! Reminds me of what someone had earlier commented that the TTG & supporters are being used by God as 'Roadblocks to Hell' for SP & SAP, & not forgetting BOD, of course!

one of the concerned member said...

Dear reader

As a 'forensic blogger'( haha) now, I continue with my homework and calculation. I stop the count of anonymous and anonymous 2.25 at 12.16am on Nov 19 wed. As at 2.43am Nov 19 to 11am Nov 20, Thur--total comments by both are 18. will continue to be a forensic blogger..do tune in soon..

dee dee said...

Kudos to u, mr. anon2.25 for keeping to yr word and revealing yr identity to Bro Winslow. U hv done what some others, like ‘Why So Long’ have pretended to try to do but didn’t. As such, I am now more willing to listen to wat u have to say although I still may not agree with everything u commented, but anyhow, u’ve earned my respect. People like Why So Long and Honestly shud meanwhile not even bother commenting on this blog as their sole mission is to create confusion and anger to the readers. Stay away from the blog,u two. If u do not agree with what is written on the blog, don’t read it.

Anon 2.25 said...

Dear "one of the concerned member,"

I hope the number of posts by Anon 2.25 is significantly less than Anonymous. :)

Dear "dee dee,"

Thank you, but I think I have written more than my share of words for the time being -- being silent and cooped up for so long, and when I started to open my mouth, er, release the fingers, it was like a rushing gush. (but it seems that the "spirit" has left me for now-- no more "inspiration" -- do I hear sighs of relief? :)

But if anyone wishes to "talk" to me off the blog, you can write me at ct.anon225@gmail.com. (account opened today). This way, I can talk more without cluttering the space here. I will do my best to reply to everyone, even those who still want to bash me. *puts on steel helmet*

Anon 2.25 said...

I just remembered! Please don't use your real email address (create another one at Gmail) and/or real name. I don't want to be accused as a spy, collecting names, etc. :)

forensic blogger no 100 said...

to: all

if any of you wish to response to any email offer or face to face appointment by any of the commenter in calvarytoday, you do it at your own risk, OK! calvarytoday is not responsible for any mishaps or any untowards incidents that can take place. You are doing it at your own risk...

of course, beware that when responding to any of those email, be alert that which email address you prefer, personal, private or office email...you have to protect yourself...in case, meeting place, be sure its a safe place..

Anon 2.25 said...

Yikes, "forensic blogger no 100" you are so right. This might not be a good idea after all. If you don't know what you are doing, you can give away your real identity. I almost did a boo-boo, as I innocently used my real name when I created the gmail account. DO NOT USE YOUR REAL NAME. I had to do some tweaking to erase references to my real name.

Anon 2.25 said...

Dear all,

After thinking about it more, I think we better heed "forensic blogger no 100's" warning very seriously. The risks are much much more than the benefits. I have decided to delete my gmail account and withdraw my offer. Please don't write to me. And I caution everyone to seriously consider the risks before taking any such offers. This is really stupid of me. So Sorry. :(

NeNe said...

Dear "one of the concerned member(s)",

Nothing better to do ah, 'forensic blogger', counting number of comments by anonymous and anonymous 2.25?

I think it's an exercise in futility. Whatever for?

Better pray and give constructive comments.

Moving Forward said...

Number of good bloggers here but not sure whether they are good constructive bloggers since comments/talk are aplenty but suggestion/action of what to do next - that's a different story.

Ah Heng said...

Dear Moving Forward,

Are u talking about yourself?

one of the concerned member said...

NeNe

don't be like that, all activities by anyone here had got big implications..what they said, what they wrote, what they did, it can produce excellent result, good, better and or average results.

our mission is still to keep all concerned member know, what is the latest in the 'saga'. To be able to achieve our objective is we have to focus on CIM- transparency, truth, governance.

Since we got forensic lawyer, ct also got forensic blogger..cheers and God love you most..

we are family said...

Dear nene, it’s ok…let forensic blogger do his/her job. Everyone has a role to play in this blog..maybe we shall just direct dear forensic blogger to do some forensics on more important stats next round

NeNe said...

Sorry, forensic blogger, for stalling your work. I like suggestion by "we are family" to direct you to do some forensics on more important stats next round. We will keep you in mind when we need your service. I owe you one. God bless.

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