Calvary Today 2: Post EGM - CIM Traveling Expenses

Saturday, November 1, 2008

Post EGM - CIM Traveling Expenses

CIM Travelling Expenses

At the EGM a deacon explained in detail the various expenses paid out from CIM. He emphasized that more than 90% of the expenditures had been to cover the cost of international ministry engagements in line with the charter of CIM “mainly to enable our Senior Pastor and Sister Petrina to preach or minister to the needs of people as part of CIM evangelism ministry.”

Below is a list of their travelling expenses extracted from the audited accounts from inception till year ended 2007.

(Click on the Chart to Enlarge. To return to this page, Click "BACK" on the left hand corner)

For your information.

Hong Meng
6th October 2008

214 comments:

«Oldest ‹Older 1 – 200 of 214 Newer› Newest»

Simpleman said...: Looking at the list of travelling expenses, I don't see India listed as one of SP's destinations although he specifically mentioned at the recent EGM that he went to India and that his ministry in India required him to fly there.

Now, which is true - SP's answer at the EGM or this list of travelling expenses extracted from the audited accounts of CIM.

I don't understand. Can someone enlightened me.; November 1, 2008 at 11:19 AM
NeNe said...: Yes, you are right, Simpleman. I don't see the country India on the list.

There you go again, SP, half truths yet again.

When will you ever learn to speak the truth, the whole truth but the TRUTH.

Remember, God is the God of Truth, and He's on the side of the Truth. He will not be mocked!; November 1, 2008 at 11:24 AM
Ah Ngau said...: Brother Edward Rajasingam,

Kindly look into this matter. I smell something fishy here. Something is definitely NOT right.

As CC Treasurer and the one who was delegated to be SP's spokesman at the EGM, you are MORALLY BOUND to look into it and let's have some clarification, or in short, THE TRUTH.; November 1, 2008 at 11:29 AM
Don't Play-Play said...: From the list, I noticed that more than 3/4 of SP's trips are for conferences which I believe are attended by Christian leaders.

Did he evangelise to these Christian leaders? Isn't the main objective of CIM to preach the Gospel? I think SP's priority is off.; November 1, 2008 at 11:34 AM
Book-keeper Only said...: Simpleman,

Obviously you're not an accountant. Haven't you heard of SELECTIVE REPORTING meh?; November 1, 2008 at 11:38 AM
Simpleman said...: Book-keeper, you're right. I'not an accountant but I do know alot about money matters, and it sure matters to SP.

Maybe we should report CIM transactions to IRB. What say you out there in cyberspace?; November 1, 2008 at 11:44 AM
money money money said...: don't play play, you're rite. majority of the expenses listed down seem to be for conferences,camps and meetings. doesn't sound like an evangelist's job to me.or maybe sp thinks he doesn't have enough experience and needs to attend more of this conferences to increase his knowledge in training to be an evangelist. expensive training if you ask me.
Also, why was the trip to USA for the Global Pastors Network so the expensive, RM75k?? did he bring his whole family or did he bring ALL our pastors there? if it's the latter,then at least not so bad.; November 1, 2008 at 11:53 AM
Tak Masuk Akal said...: Maybe atending international conferences which are normally attended by the who's who in christendom, SP can rub shoulders with the right connections so that when he steps down as SP of CC, he will be invited by them to speak.

You know-lah, nowadays moving in the right circles can move you to the right places mah.

Looks like CIM is not fulfilling its objectives. I thought the Missions Committee of CC is supposed to evaluate individuals/works supported before agreeing to support for another year.

Dunno who's evaluating whose performance now? How can PO who heads Missions Committee evaluate his own boss, SP. Tak masuk akal-lah. Sudah buat saya bingung!!; November 1, 2008 at 12:14 PM
Ex-Staff said...: Where got evaluate? SP just tells PO what individauls/works/etc to support and PO merely presents this list to Missions Committee for confirmation - no discussion required.

You can verify this with any of the Missions Committee members, both past and present.; November 1, 2008 at 12:18 PM
Lobbyist said...: Money, Money, Money, you are right. SP's trip to USA for the Global Pastors Network cost RM75k?

Was it an entourage or did it also include lobbying expenses. In US, you need to spend to lobby and it's legal even among members of Congress and Senate.

Lobbying for what you may ask??? I leave it to you check it out!; November 1, 2008 at 12:23 PM
Position Oh Position said...: Maybe for his international positions - vp of this, chairman of that, the list goes on......; November 1, 2008 at 12:24 PM
Correction on India said...: The trip SP made to India was in June 13, 2008. He went with PS. Therefore SP was correct - he did go to India. This expense will only be reflected in the 2008 accounts. Thus we cannot see that in the accounts which is up to end2007.

However this highlighted -was this is SP's first trip to India since CIM was started??; November 1, 2008 at 12:29 PM
Not Loaded One said...: What, RM75k to attend Global Pastors Network? SP must be joking.

He thinks money grows on trees or drops from heaven ah! Where got like that, pastor. Even Bill Gates doesn't spend like that! For the blurred ones, Bill is the founder of Microsoft, the software giant!

SP, you think all Calvarites are loaded ah!

What a big shame and sham! Spending congregation's hardearned $$$ just like spending water meh!

SP, please take note. Some of your sheep are widows, widowers, pensioners, retirees, unemployed, underemployed, just retrenched, about-to-be retrenched (global recession already), houswives, househusbands, youth, children, toddlers.

They're NOT LOADED, for your info. Maybe your BOD or APs are feeding you wrong info.; November 1, 2008 at 12:34 PM
Widow's Mite said...: Ok, Correction on India, so SP did go to India with Pas SK on June 13, 2008, but why did he quote, of all places, India when we were referring to audited accounts up till 31 Dec 2007. Is it because India is a difficult country to travel and evangelise?

Anyway, spending RM75k to attend Global Pastors Network is a BAD BAD JOKE.

He must remember part of $$$ came from widow's mite. It's NOT RIGHT. Period.; November 1, 2008 at 12:43 PM
It's UTTERLY SINFUL said...: Thinking about it, why did SP quote India when he tried to answer a member's question on his travelling expenses under CIM.

Why didn't he quote his (maybe entourage) trip to US for Global Pastors Network that cost RM75,000.

My guess is that the cost of travelling to India is peanuts compared to US for the Global Pastors Network that cost a WHOPPING RM75,000 (not RM7,500 mind you but RM75,0000).

It's utterly SINFUL.; November 1, 2008 at 12:55 PM
Shame-Shame said...: Looking at the way that SP spends our hardearned money to travel in business-class style, I have now made up my mind.

I will NOT give anymore to missions through CC, but I will give to GENUINE MISSIONS NEEDS which are many out there.

Be your own Missions Director. PO is not doing his job of looking after God's money and ensuring even cent is well spent.

Shame on you, PO! If you are not, I am because my church gave CIM RM200k a year for 6 years to spend so lavishly.; November 1, 2008 at 1:03 PM
Earning less than RM75K said...: Yes, spending RM75,000 just like that is surely not right. TTG, pursue the matter. You have my full support. SP must go!

By the way, I'm a manager, but I earn less than RM75,000 a year, and that includes my performance bonus.

For RM75k, we can support more than 6 full-time pastors at RM1,000per month at our outreaches for one whole year. Think about it SP and PO!; November 1, 2008 at 1:10 PM
rich but misuse said...: Can someone please confirm the trip to US which spent Rm75K, we were in the entourage, and can we have the details of the trip?

I agree with don't play-play. More than 3/4 of SP's trips are for conferences which I believe are attended by Christian leaders. So, were they also part of evangelism?

No wonder Christians from other churches always say CC is a mega and rich church.; November 1, 2008 at 1:16 PM
rich but misuse said...: correction:

Can someone please confirm the trip to US which spent Rm75K, we were in the entourage, and can we have the details of the trip?

"we were in the entourage..." should read WHO were in the entourage...; November 1, 2008 at 1:21 PM
Simpleman said...: Yeah, you are right "Earning less than RM75k".

Supporting 6 full-time pastors at outreaches is definitely more fruitful for the Kingdom of God in terms of souls reached than sending SP to attend a conference where, according to my experiences, you do one or a combination of these activities:

a) listening
b) sleeping (I mean during conference)
c) laughing (when speakers joke or talk rubbish, and at times even talking to himself)
d) mind wandering off once a while
e) eating (during sessions or teabreaks)
f) drinking
g) exchanging cards
h) saying hi and bye
i) serious talking (if the person you're talking to is a VIP)
j) shopping
k) sightseeing
l) .......the list goes on

These activities are not very fruitful, at least as far as the Kingdom of God is concerned. I don't know about SP.; November 1, 2008 at 1:21 PM
missions giving outside cc said...: shame-shame, since this saga, personally I've stopped giving to missions in our church. I believe many have also stopped. Yea, give it to the genuine missions need through other churches.; November 1, 2008 at 1:25 PM
PR Man said...: Yes, rich but misuse, I agree with your statement "No wonder Christians from other churches always say CC is a mega and rich church"

Reasons I can offer, but not exhaustive though:

a) SP is always there to support (you scratch my back I scratch yours)

b) SP is President of CIM, an internationally-recognised evangelistic institution (with those fanciful flyers, who is not impressed!!)

c) SP is an internationally renowned speaker with a 10,000-strong church based in KL (at least that's what he claims)

d) SP heads one of the most vibrant churches in the world (many visiting speakers have said this from CC pulpit - I wonder whether they're sincere or it's a international pastors' cliche.

I wonder what's the definition of a mega church - 5k, 10k, 20k, 50k, 100k, 800k, 1 million. To me, it's PR. You can't introduce someone like this:

"This morning I am privileged to introduce our guest speaker _____ from _____, my good friend and a great man of God. He pastors a mega church in ____ with a combined congregation of 10,000 that include those from its 32 outreaches, many of which are already sovereign churches. Please join me in welcoming ________ to share God's Word.; November 1, 2008 at 1:36 PM
Corporate Guy said...: As a corporate man, I suggest SP's KPI be based on the number of souls reached for the Kingdom of God, rather than the number of conferences he has attended which, according to HM's list, take up more than 85% of SP's travelling expenses.

I personally think the former is more productive if God were to evaluate SP's KPI.; November 1, 2008 at 1:44 PM
rich but misuse said...: Yeah pr man. It's just how we "play" with words and numbers according to one's own benefits. This reminds me of the ways SP and some BOD members replied to our questions during the AGM & EGM

One very good example is "Oh, since the CIM's formation aim and charter is to carry out evangelism and missions, therefore it's not wrong for the Missions Dept. of CC to channel RM200k to them annually, without the knowledge of the members. After all, the intentions are the same". What a nonsensical excuse they can come out with!!!; November 1, 2008 at 1:54 PM
money money money said...: Lobbyist,good thinking...was he lobbying for a role as director in one of the christian unis? coz I heard he sits on the board (or something to that extent) in one of these unis in USA, which was why his granddaughter got a scholarship to study there. (not trying to get personal with the grandkids,don't worry..just trying to give an example)

simpleman, haha..you are funny and rite on the activities done during conferences. that's what I do whenever I attend conferences, but of course am not as fortunate as SP as I only get to attend conferences in Malaysia and not USA :(; November 1, 2008 at 1:55 PM
Simpleman said...: Talking about CIM's objectives of evangelism and missions, BOD must have been confused.

Maybe, to their simple minds:

Attending Conferences = Evangelism + Missions

Or maybe SP pulled wool over their eyes. He's capable of doing it.

He did this to us all these years, but PTL, we can now see through the wool.; November 1, 2008 at 2:35 PM
money money money said...: u know, although I'm sure SP had every intention to do all that he did..but the BOD is the one to be blamed for not pulling the reins when they should have. they should hv been the check and balance of our church's funds so that it will not be misused and authority will not be abused. but they didn't do that and instead encouraged SP to keep on doing wrong. so i hv to say.."BOD, SHAME ON YOU"; November 1, 2008 at 3:11 PM
BOD CC - NATO said...: Members of BOD Calvary Church Kuala Lumpur.

What happened to all your promises during the EGM? After more than 2 months, we don't seem to see or know whether anything has been done. The most popular phrase we alway hear from you is "Let God be God."

Please don't be a NATO (No Action Talk Only) member.; November 1, 2008 at 3:19 PM
Bamboo Conspiracy said...: FINANCIAL ACCOUNTABILITY OF CHRISTIAN LEADERS

Accountability to God is vital as people form their impressions of both leadership and the church by looking at the outward appearances as stated clearly by the Apostle Paul in 2 Corinthians 8:21 (NIV): “For we are taking pains to do what is right, not only in the eyes of the Lord but also in the eyes of men.” Or, as the New American Standard puts it in verses 20 and 21, “taking precaution that no one should discredit us in our administration of this generous gift, for we have regard for what is honorable, not only in the sight of the Lord, but also in the sight of men.”

For best practices please visit the following website:

http://ecfa.net/PDF/BestPractices.pdf; November 1, 2008 at 3:49 PM
cmw said...: Good Afternnon Brothers & Sisters in Christ.

Please log in to this website
http://www.neverthirsty.org/pp/corner/read/r00142.html for addtional info. on what a Christian need to stand and do when the following occurs.
1.What does a Christian do when their pastor sins?

2.Sinning Pastors : What to do?

3.Biblical Guidelines for helping a sinning Christian (Pastor)?

God Bless

cmw; November 1, 2008 at 4:09 PM
cmw said...: Good Afternnon Brothers & Sisters in Christ.

Please log in to this website
http://www.neverthirsty.org/pp/corner/read/r00142.html for addtional info. on what a Christian need to stand and do when the following occurs.
1.What does a Christian do when their pastor sins?

2.Sinning Pastors : What to do?

3.Biblical Guidelines for helping a sinning Christian (Pastor)?

God Bless

cmw; November 1, 2008 at 4:09 PM
POET said...: BOD, you were elected to serve God & us,
But what a disappointment you really are!
Instead of providing checks & balances,
Your noble office you did wilfully mar!
Closing a blind eye to SP's covetousness,
You LIED to cover up for him, the LIAR,
You helped him rob the funds for missions,
He has millions stashed away safely afar!
BOD, we hold you accountable to God & to us,
Your resignation we demand, shame on you lah!; November 1, 2008 at 4:17 PM
Jer 23:11 said...: Thank You for the link, cmw. Very relevant indeed and it confirms that what the TTG group is doing is correct. I believe SP is at the stage where we need to remove him from the fellowship and turn away from him since he refuses to humble himself and repent.; November 1, 2008 at 4:24 PM
correct sp & bod said...: Yes thank you cmw. The article is very informative.; November 1, 2008 at 4:29 PM
For the Truth said...: I agreed with jer 23:11. If we follow the article on Biblical Guidelines for helping a sinning Christian ( Pastor ), and we know it is scriptural then it is our duty and responsibility to educate and share with our brothers and sisters in Chirst so that they will not be confuse.

what say you?; November 1, 2008 at 5:15 PM
YTF said...: If mission trips is to attend conferences and meetings, I will surely volunteer for them.

What a joke?; November 1, 2008 at 5:50 PM
YTF said...: I have been to a few international conferences pertaining to my profession and I always see most of the participants go for tours and shopping during, before and after the conferences.

So, you know what....?; November 1, 2008 at 6:01 PM
Cheated!!!! said...: Dear All,

After reading all these figures and how the money is spent, I am definitely not giving to church anymore whether it is for missions or otherwise.
I myself have not travelled overseas a lot. Each time I want to do that I have to save, really save every cent before I can travel overseas. Can you imagine SP can just spend the money without thinking about the money that the church members give? I believe the church members give sacrificially and they gave because God blessed the labors of their hands, hard work you know earning the money. Of course this was with God's blessing. After you earn the money, you could have given yourself an overseas holiday, buy a new car, buy a new computer, buy a new dress that you always want etc, etc. But you did not do this, instead you gave to church because God blessed you. You want God's Kingdom to expand, you want more souls to be saved, that is why you gave. But look what happened. The money is spent on SP travelling business class , etc etc. I feel so cheated!!!!!
BOD do you not feel the same way? I believe a lot CC members feel the same way.
What about some of the pastors? Are they paid enough? I know of one who does not have enough money to get his toilet repaired?
What about our missionaries? It is sad there is only missionary now in Africa that we are supporting. The earlier missionaries that we were supporting did not have enough money to buy their daughters clothes. Why is there a such a glaring discrepancy in monetary support for the different people who are also serving the Lord?
Mission Director, BOD and pastors of CC, can you explain all these?; November 1, 2008 at 6:23 PM
What a life! said...: YTF, you're right.

If missions trips include attending conferences and meetings, I will surely volunteer for them too.

I don't think there will even be shortage of participants too. Who don't want to go.

Attending conferences is fun mah. If you are bored, you can slip out and go shopping, sightseeing or eat some delicious yong tau foo.

What a life, SP? That's why you want to BOD to extend your service after 60! Who don't want. In Cantonese, they say "beat to death also don't want to go".; November 1, 2008 at 6:38 PM
no one left said...: Dear Cheated..i think we can more or less guess wat the Missions director, bod and pastors of cc will say...their favourite phrases 'Let God be God' and 'Do not touch God's anointed'. Grossly misused phrases and evidence of SP's mind control over these bunch of people.; November 1, 2008 at 6:38 PM
Ah Beng No. 2 said...: BOD, in case you all are not aware, since SP and SAP are past 60, their EPF contributions by CC should be 1/2 of mandatory contributions.

Don't spoil them further.; November 1, 2008 at 6:42 PM
impressed! said...: I'm very impressed with the ah bengs in our church la...both ah beng and ah beng no.2 also veli smart! didnt think of tat point, ah beng no.2..good thinking! can someone go check check and see if sp and sap r still being paid full amt of epf by cc????; November 1, 2008 at 6:45 PM
No "thanks" needed said...: Please log in to this website
http://www.neverthirsty.org/pp/corner/read/r00142.html for addtional info. on what a Christian need to stand and do when the following occurs.
1.What does a Christian do when their pastor sins?

2.Sinning Pastors : What to do?

3.Biblical Guidelines for helping a sinning Christian (Pastor)?

God Bless

cmw
*********************
Hey Guys & Gals,

The recommended reading in now in Berita Calvary. Just click the link at the side bar on the right.; November 1, 2008 at 7:01 PM
Undergraduate CIE said...: Sakit hati ku.. I got allowance of RM300 per month given by my parent, was a college student then, now as a undergraduate. I used to give very faithfully my tithe and faith promise. I was taught this money belongs to God, and to give by faith, God will blessed alas my life, my study my grade and so on..

I saved every cent I can, I packed 'zap fun' from a store quite far away near my college, you know, the one start( de college) with "T" in Subang Jaya. I walked quite a distance, to 'ta pau' from that store, becoz it is cheaper, around RM3.oo, whereas my friend who are quite 'loaded' eat right across the cafe, usually the 'zap fun' cost RM5-6. I will join them after I packed.

Now, after I know and see this account and spending, I am questioning my SP, why do you have to behave like that? why misguided us as young kids?; November 1, 2008 at 7:15 PM
Anonymous said...: 1/11/08
If CIM is SP's personal ministry, then

1. why must Missions give him RM200k per year? If given, has Missions any guidelines on what he should spend on?

2. Since it is his personal ministry then why did he want to bring a board member to his personal ministry (rather fishy too don't u think)

3. The accountant at the EGM mentioned based on what he examined, there are there should be more controls in place -
has anyone on TTG any idea whether those controls been introduced?

4. pls check was it in 2007 that Azeleah went to USA on a course, her father + mother went too for a conference coincided with her going, then joined by SP and SAP......wonder whether this is the entourage you all are talking about - if 5 people involved it is of no surprise that 75k was spent!!!; November 1, 2008 at 8:21 PM
Calvarite said...: After reading all above comments,

1. I can't help but believe there is abuse of funds. How Senior Pastor dare to ask 200K per year from the church for his personal ministry? Why can't he raise funds elsewhere?

2. How our Deacons and Mission Committee can approve such amount? Even the whole concept of church giving her pastor 200K per year for personal ministry is totally wrong.

3. During EGM, Patrick can say that Prince serve 30+ years as SP, so he is 'entitled'. What a rationale! Leadership is confused that long service deserves privileges and right!

4. Pastors, Deacons and Mission Committee should feel ashamed of such transactions.; November 1, 2008 at 9:49 PM
Siew Chyuan said...: To "anonymous" at 8.21pm,

Your Question # 1 is indeed a very valid, moot & good question - "why must Missions give SP RM 200,000 per year?"

When we first saw this amount in the 2006 & 2007 Missions A/cs on Sat 3rd May, we had posed this very question to PO & ER (in the presence of SK). PO had answered that it was budgeted for SP (& another) to travel overseas 6 to 7 times a year, to fulfil his duties as CIM's president. PO said that the other person would be SAP, failing which then either PO or JG would go along.

As for the 2nd part of your Question # 1, I should think that the answer is probably "NO"; as, after the said meeting, I had asked ER whether, as CC's Treasurer, he has seen the CIM's Audited A/cs; to my astonishment, ER had replied "NO".

I had then said (tongue in cheek) to ER that he should have seen the CIM Audited A/cs, 'cos if SP had spent RM 300,000 per year, then the BOD may want to give RM 300,000. ER was shocked & I then followed up with BUT if SP only spent RM 50,000 or RM 100,000 per year, then BOD should ONLY give the amount spent & NOT RM 200,000 per year; at that point, I was only aware of the 2 years (2006 & 2007).

For Question 2, it was established (from the perusal of the CIM Audited A/cs on 21st Jun) that NONE of the BOD were included amongst the 5 CIM directors from incorporation on 8th Sep 2002 to 31st Dec 2007. PT was only appointed to CIM's Board early this year (as was informed to us by PW at our meeting on 31st May); probably to add credence to CIM (in view of questions being raised then on CIM by TTG members).

As for your Question # 3, unlike the accountant, we were only allowed to view the CIM Audited A/cs for 1 & 1/2 hours on 21st Jun (Praise God that He gave us the wisdom to copy the A/cs since my earlier request for a copy of the Missions A/cs on 3rd May was rejected); thus, I am in no position to comment on the quality of CIM's &/or CC's system of Internal Controls which was said to be lacking by the accountant.

For the record, my request for a 4th meeting to view the CIM & Missions was rejected by ER (perhaps they are worried that God might reveal more "skeletons in CC's closet" to us). I wish to stress that we (the 4 TTG members who saw the CIM Audited A/cs) give all glory to God who reveal ALL to us as without His assistance, I believe that we would not be able to copy the whole CIM Audited A/cs (5 years plus 2 years of CARED Audited A/cs) during the 1 & 1/2 hours in the presence of PO, PT, ER, PW & SL.

As for your last question, I am afraid that I can't help you on this matter. Perhaps, God will raise someone out there to reveal the Truth to all of us Concerned Calvarites.

I trust that, as a follower of our Lord Jesus (who is the God of Light & the God of Truth), I have answered your 3 questions to the best of my God-given ability & I maintain that each & every word is the Truth & nothing but the whole Truth; so help me, God.

On His Majesty's Service,
Siew Chyuan; November 1, 2008 at 9:54 PM
Anonymous said...: Anonymous Ah Ming says

1. Kudos to GOD and Calvary Today for officially bringing the Truth about our Church Pioneers.
First they (SP, SAP and family of Gunarats especially in 30th. anniversary)tried to erased our history, Then they (some BOD and balked and eventually relented and yield to us CT in the pursuit of TTG and Integrity.
"Half Truth" being uncovered here.

2. Now I'm glad CIM is slowly being exposed for what it is. Repentance (for fraud and lies) and Full Restitution (up to 7 times) is required. In the eyes of God and in the secular world SP and Gunarats can be and should be sued for misappropriating and misrepresentation of CIM. Misusing church mission funds for a supposedly personal evangelistic ministry. Mala Fide.

3. Us Calvarites are not happy being duped, spiritually abused from the pulpit (we should keep on monitoring the service and conduct of our speakers for their duplicity if ANY, one service say one thing and then another a different thing)

4. How can an extended ministry that belongs to CC be registered to a Gunerat. It beggars our mind unless we see here an outright fraud is or to be committed.; November 1, 2008 at 10:04 PM
ini macam mana boleh? said...: Aiyoyo! Lepas baca semua komen tu, I ingat ada sikit "conflict of interest" dan boleh jadi "CBT" juga.

Orang Barat katakan "Power Corrupts, Absolute Power Corrupts Absolutely". Eh! Ini memang betul di CC sebab lepas 30 tahun di CC, SP boleh arahkan BOD kasi dia RM 200,000 setahun dan BOD kami, bodoh bodoh, ikut arahan SP sahaja. Dia orang BOD ta ada otak kah?

O Tuhan Yesus tolong lah bangunkan BOD dari ketiduran jangan bagi CC jatuh lagi nanti syaitan ketawakan anak anak anda.

Tolong lah Tuhan, Tolong lah Yesus, Tolong lah ......; November 1, 2008 at 10:06 PM
Rhetoric said...: More than 2 months have past after EGM. Philip Tan presented moving forward.

Good words used but true to form..only FORM but NO SUBSTANCE.

Sometime, really can't blame Deacons. Longest serving Deacon, Patrick Wong is slow like tortoise. Staying too long and can't do much with SP there. Patrick used example of tortoise in EGMs. Look like he understands the whole situation.

Fountainhead church..fund collected for Indonesia Tsunami..but SLOW to give compared with smaller churches. So no need to give but can transfer to SP's personal ministry!

Fountainhead church..SLOW to build leaders..NO ELDERS after 40 years!.1 evangelist in Billy Tan but now no more..1 missionary couple to Kenya but now no more.. heard 1 bible student getting RM250 per month allowance but now graduated and serving church still RM250 and has to stay in store room of a satelite church..SLOW TO REVIEW....Calvaryland (21st century project)..spending 10M but still 6 inmates with 8 workers and 35K per month from Faith Promise budget...SLOW TO ACT

Stop calling ourselves Fountain Church. Just do it right to please Christ, not men. Let others or Christ call us Fountainhead, not self-proclaimed, if there is such a tag; November 1, 2008 at 10:13 PM
Frustrated and Sad said...: Brother,
What are we suppose to do now after receiving so many evidences of UNRIGHTEOUSNESS conduct and I believe the TTG have even applied Biblical principle in approaching SP personally and with some other witnesses. The church knows about it. So what then...???

Please advise.; November 1, 2008 at 10:14 PM
Anonymous said...: Anonymous Ah Ming says
To Ah Bing #2 "BOD, in case you all are not aware, since SP and SAP are past 60, their EPF contributions by CC should be 1/2 of mandatory contributions"

So methinks our EPF thru our epf (ever providing faithful i.e.) is indirectly contributing to PG Jnr.

I think this is like you say sap sap.. or peanuts or kacang putih. Go figured who is groomed to be at the helm of CCC once SP retires fully?

We have established that some family Gunerats are not koshered pastors.
Will or should JG hold the mantle once SP goes?

P.S. I expect lot of negative flak here from JG or his supporters (devil advocates such as anon 2:33) as usual ( suffered by anon TEHNC, enuff is enuff).; November 1, 2008 at 10:23 PM
Mr F said...: The MD of my company only gets RM15000.00 for this annual passage and here our SP gets RM200,000.00 each year. My company's turnover is a few times more than the church's.

If SP has spent about RM500,000.00 for the last 7 to 8 years, why is it that the BOD including the treasurer who is an accountant by profession, continue to give him RM200,000.00 each year. They are giving him more than he can chew even. But still RM500,000.00 is a lot of money.

I hope the BOD better have a good answer when God ask them later.; November 1, 2008 at 10:33 PM
Anonymous said...: Anon Ah Ming to Ah Bing..

What is the forecasted or realistic budget for the serperntine or white elephantine CCC? -$300,000,000 or s'thing close to it as mentioned per previous post?

Who's in charge of Communications Ministry? What's the AV and furnishings budget ($50,000,000)?

Whats the potential KB?

Naah, I don't think he needs dad's epf. Yes I'm alluding to possible shenanagin.

Can someone please explain to me why I'm fixated at $50,000,000. Isn't that what was originally our budget for relocating/consolidating our church?; November 1, 2008 at 10:36 PM
Press On said...: Bumped into one Calvarite family yesterday.

The brother said something familiar - "I attended CC more than 20 years. For many years, felt uncomfortable with leadership but dare not say. He discovered many have similar experience."

The wife said she concurred with Teh Tarik Group.

So, we press on..; November 1, 2008 at 10:38 PM
oneofyou said...: Wounded soldiers,

Christ is not happy..

When Pastors are not behaving and acting as Pastors

When Deacons are likewise the same; November 1, 2008 at 10:44 PM
Puzzledmember said...: Mr Church Treasurer,

Where are all the love offering Sn Pastor received in his oversea trips?; November 1, 2008 at 10:47 PM
Anonymous said...: Anon Ah Ming to

"Press on said" and all ex-Calvarites that moved on. We understand and still love you. May the Joy, Peace and Love of the Lord be with you always.

Especially to those ex-deacons who can't tahan the spiritual abuse and blackmail from SP and his family of gunarats. We love you too.

Our request is just support us in spirit and in truth and pray for those that remains, BODs and family of gunarats that will eventually rat or exposed fully our leaders wrongdoings. Rightly or wrongly our SP has to take full RESPONSIBILTY. We take great courage and comfort from our Glorious God for guiding our actions through this blog and http://www.neverthirsty.org/pp/corner/read/r00142.html; November 1, 2008 at 10:53 PM
ORIGINAL SAD said...: To answer one of the anonymous who asked about the year when Azalea went to study in the States....if you care to check this up, you will discover that the whole family went along, not just 5 of them! JG & wife plus children! All Pam's children went, too! No wonder it cost RM75,000/- Wow! The Gunerotnams are having the time of their lives, with church money, missions funds meant to save souls!; November 1, 2008 at 10:54 PM
roadblocks to ....... said...: A few years ago, SP preached a very good message entitled "Roadblocks to Hell" with props & sound effects to scare the daylights out of anyone who is on the wrong track.

Since it is apparent to all, except SP & his sorry (not merry) band of yesmen (& yeswoman) - BOD & APs, that SP is now on the wrong track, can SP not view the TTG's actions as motivated by their Christian love for him (& as directed by God) to save him from going the wrong way?

Yes, absurd as it may sound to SP & his gang, God could be using the TTG & others as roadblocks to keep SP from hurdling to Hell. If you are heading that way SP, sorry lah I won't be seeing you when I meet Jesus. So take care SP & be warned ...........

PS - I heard that SP is computer illiterate & thus an AP is assigned to monitor CalvaryToday. SK, in reading, please get this message across to SP or else you, SK, may have to answer God why you didn't do so. Take care & may God bless both you & SP.; November 1, 2008 at 11:11 PM
Anonymous said...: Anon Ah Ming says to rethoric-- you are right.

Thats why a lot of us are opposed to this white elephantine or serpentine CCC Ffountainhead that was birthed in controversy thru bait and switch tactics of this carnal world.
Whats the latest estimated or realistic budget - $300,000,000 or something close to it as posted somewhere here. Whats the budget for AV component. Even if its $25,000,000 its a lot of money for a lot of devilish gadgets to monitor, surveil, tabulate, profile every calvarite (yes leaders too).
Its a powerful tool and whip in the hands of someone not koshered.; November 1, 2008 at 11:14 PM
SP snookered said...: If original sad is right then methinks that the RM 75,000 US trip is ultra vires the CIM mission statement which do not provide for the CIM funds to be used as such.

SP, in answer to ER's son at the EGM, had stated that the RM 1.4 million still in CIM would be used in accordance with the CIM objectives. Does anybody knows whether those objectives provide for the whole GunaRATnam clan to fly business class & stay 1st class on CIM funds which is actually our funds.

SP, SP, have you snookered yourself this time?; November 1, 2008 at 11:20 PM
money money money said...: think best way to go abt this is to find out when this global pastors network took place and when granddaughter of SP and whole family went to US. If it coincides, then BINGO...by george, we've solved the mystery of the unjustifiable huge sum of RM75,000 which has gone down the drain to fund SP and family for their holiday; November 1, 2008 at 11:26 PM
why not others said...: SP spent 70K a year on travelling expenses. Why didn't he let us know where he went?

I saw City Harvest Church of Singapore official website and noticed Pastor Kong Hee's oversea ministry of past, present and future are all listed. Also the other Pastors.

When SP was Chairman of NECF, he didn't promote NECF's activities in CC. I got to know through other churches and members. Other churches participated but why were we kept in the dark?

One of CIM objectives is leadership training. Why is he not training the Associate Pastors, Deacons and men? Family members, yes. Others, no.; November 1, 2008 at 11:30 PM
money money money said...: also,word is tat eventhough PO joins SP at times for his 'evangelistic' escapades, but PO is only allowed to fly economy class. only sp, sap and JG fly business class. the excuse tat SP is old and needs to be fresh for his preaching cannot then be used for sap and JG as these 2 do not need to preach and all JG does when he goes there is to take videos of his daddy preaching. do we really need to pay business classs for a videoman to fly all the way there??? I'm sure these conferences already have their own video crew who would be most willing to give SP a tape of his preaching if requested.; November 1, 2008 at 11:32 PM
Anonymous said...: Anon Ah Ming says

We have allowed and created a monster. Since you are reading this, Pastor SK you are fully aware now that CIM and its funding contribution is Mala Fide. What are you going to do about it. Its on your watch now, will you have the guts to repatriate all the ill-gotten, illadvised mission funding to CIM. Repatriate and bring back CIM to CC's fold. Nothing short of it will be satifactory to us for you are answerable to God. "Due Diligence" is required from God's servant as he "labours for the Lord.
You and those on CIM's board can be charged for crimminal negligence.

The high powered lawyers legal opinion is based on "Arthur Andersen" accounting!!!!; November 1, 2008 at 11:36 PM
Economyclasstraveller said...: Serious! Sn Pastor, Sister and Jim travelled business class. Please verify.

Deacons, wake up from slumber and explain in the coming AGM.; November 1, 2008 at 11:36 PM
Agreed said...: Agreed. Heard too much..10K suit, 500K Volvo, 100K Civic, SP's hse ?M, Jim's 1M, Pam's !M.

When will this stop?; November 1, 2008 at 11:39 PM
Anonymous said...: Anon Ah Ming says to

" Cynthia Cooper".
1 Corinthians 15:58

It looks like JG is more than SP RH man. Real hatchet man?; November 1, 2008 at 11:41 PM
Votedforyou said...: Philip Tan,

Best way to move forward:

1. Investigate SP's and family's dealings in all ministries and finances. Your background as banker is helpful.

2. You are a new deacon - less baggage to carry. God wants you to be a reformer and transformer.

3. Courage to stand for truth. Many have confidence in you.

Christ is with you; November 1, 2008 at 11:49 PM
no one left said...: Dear SK, if u're indeed reading this, I wish u a happy birthday and I hope u will listen to God and NOT man anymore. Listen to that still small voice when u are praying and interceding for cc and I'm sure deep down, u will realize what needs to be done. I hope God will give u the boldness to speak up and stand up for what is right once u realize the truth about SP and his misdeeds.Serve God and not man!; November 1, 2008 at 11:49 PM
coffers vs coffin said...: SP is always stating from the pulpit that we should not trust men as men will always fail us but we should trust God as He never fails us.

If so why didn't SP practice what he preaches - SP shouldn't have trusted men (paying lawyer & accountant exorbitant fees for some secular advice), he should have trusted God (by going to God in prayer in solitude & listen to what God has to say to him on the moving of RM 1.9 million from CC's coffers to his CIM's coffers without CC members' knowledge).

Has SP forgotten his preaching that "I come into this world with nothing & I can take nothing away"? Likewise what SP moves to his CIM's coffers cannot follow him unless those around him chooses to put it into his coffin. Even then, the tainted money will just remain in his coffin & rot with his body.

SK, please remind SP that he is a mere mortal & the Bible say that man will have 3 score & 10 years, SP has used up his 3 score years so he only has 10 years left. Do get SP to repent before it's too late or else .....; November 1, 2008 at 11:54 PM
Anonymous said...: A Friend Says

After reading all the comments here I have come to the conclusion,
Pastor SK please step off from the serpentine trail before you advanced too far into the levels!!!; November 1, 2008 at 11:54 PM
Anonymous said...: Anonymous enuff is enuff

In all his overseas assignments, on CC business and employment, does SP promote CC or CIM?
His expenses are paid by CC, honoriams and donations to CC or CIM?

His overseas speaking tour are recorded. No?

Everything about CIM is not his personal ministry. SP go and set up your own GIM.; November 2, 2008 at 12:12 AM
Anonymous said...: We have come to such a paranoid state so much that the messages and sermons are questioned. Are we being culled i.e gunarat flock goes to one service and non-gunarat flock goes to another. i.e streamline and fed different spiritual food? Go figure why I asked?; November 2, 2008 at 12:17 AM
paranoia or fact? said...: is it paranoia or a fact? perhaps its both mixed into one. when i was still under the spell of SP few years back, i remember bringing a non-calvarite christian to cc one sunday and so happens, SP was preaching. after the service, my non-calvarite friend commented that our pastor seems to be very money minded and everything in his sermon contains some undercurrents about money. at that time, I defended SP of course and said that the sermon was not about money and tat it was a good sermon. shows how mind control works...it takes a non-calvarite to notice tat but all these years, we calvarites have been blinded by SP's spell.; November 2, 2008 at 12:36 AM
Anonymous said...: I strongly advocate that we publicise this post on SP CIM extravanganza PUBLIC since other churches publish theirs.
This will move our members to prod our BOD and rats to remove our disobedient servant ELEPHANT.; November 2, 2008 at 12:52 AM
index said...: Why is everybody vilifying SP, SP's family and the BOD? The commenters claim to be loving, concerned Calvarites who are just seeking the truth? But what has all this commenting degenerated into?

Rumour-mongering. Vilification. 'Insult-contests' in which everyone wants to outdo one another in decrying the evil SP & BOD.

Just look at the India accounts case. As soon as the post is published, the first few commenters jump in on the fact that the India trip is not there, launching into angry tirades aimed at SP... until someone points out that these are 2007 accounts.

Interspersed between the name-calling and rumour-spreading are calls to the BOD to 'stand up' and 'confront SP'. What a joke. You insult them on one hand and ask them to take action on the other.

You commenters give the TTC group a bad name when you (mis)use the anonymity of the Internet to spread gossip and slander. With people like nene, bookkeeper, sp snookered writing such vitriolic comments, can you blame anybody for believing that the TTC is composed of a bunch of fanatical, divisive, vicious little people out to backstab the SP and BOD?

Especially bad are those who include amongst their sardonic, hate-filled sentences 'godly' phrases ("God will not be mocked!") to show that they are CHRISTIANS!

I've been hanging around the blog for a long time, and I am thoroughly disgusted by what happens on the comments page. Neither am I the only one; does anybody see 'desmond' here anymore?

The comments page has become more akin to a real 'mamak stall tehtarik sit-down-gossip-about-the-neighbour's-vices' affair. This is NOT what was meant by the person who invented the phrase 'Teh Tarik Crew'!

Mr. Hong Meng, please moderate the comments page. Don't let the TTC name be blackened by these people.; November 2, 2008 at 2:00 AM
Prayer for everyone posting comments and reading this blog said...: "Blessed are the pure in heart for they shall see God" Matt. 5:8

Dear Lord, please be merciful to everyone that posts comments on this blog. Please clear their minds and fill them with your Holy Spirit.

Lord please move in everyones' hearts when they comment that they would do so on facts and facts only and not use harsh and hurtful words.

Lord please move in the hearts of the moderators of CT that they could see the damage some of the comments are affecting people, especially the lambs who I know are keenly following this blog.
Lord please let CT take action to moderate this blog without "fear or favour"

Lord may your Holy Spirit move in CC and may your name be always glorified.

Thank you Lord for answering prayers

Amen!; November 2, 2008 at 7:18 AM
undergraduate overseas said...: Hie

I am back, shock and shcoking, as a undergraduate, I read this blog with great interest; woliaeh... people are having righteous anger here huh? why, money simply spent? If i spent money like that, my mum would have scold me to death and stop giving me allowance for 3 months, then she will ground me... now, I must said this is good, because, my mum love me, thats why she will discipline me! Hellow SP and all Church board, its time for discipline. Someone need to be grounded mann!!

Secondly, there are some blogger here took offence for some words and remarks, ala..this is BLOG, you can call it charistian blog, muslim blog, buddhist blog, doesnt really matter lah, becoz ultimately it is a blog, it is suppose to be 'ci-kit' abit mar..
got nice words, bad words, sweet words, bitter words, all sort oneleh.. dont take offence dear bloggers, just read, but if cannot take it, switch channel, I suggest; it means go read bible blog..like biblegateway lah or bibleprobe lah...

Finally, I call for disciplinary action to be taken on those who committed monetary wrong..; November 2, 2008 at 9:40 AM
confused said...: i agree with undergraduate..thing is, as bad as all this things sound, it is the TRUTH..so how to change how all these words are sounding like? If we were to write it another way, it would no longer be the truth..and would be half truths like wat the BOD and SP have been doing.how???; November 2, 2008 at 10:28 AM
index said...: to undergraduate overseas;

"...this is BLOG, you can call it charistian blog, muslim blog, buddhist blog, doesnt really matter lah, becoz ultimately it is a blog..."

So, in summary, a blog is designed as a public forum which anyone can use - the cyber equivalent of a teh tarik stall - where it is normal for people to drink coffee and post gossip, indulge in idle speculation, sarcastically put down others, and it 'doesn't really matter lah' because 'you can call it christian blog, muslim blog, buddhist blog' and they're all the EXACT SAME 'becoz ultimately it is a blog...'

Do you really believe this? Is this also your approach to life, Mr. Undergraduate? 'Life is life, doesn't matter what religion, sure got sin a bit, hence don't get so angry.' Or maybe this analogy is more suitable for you; 'college is college, doesn't matter what religion, sure got a lot of sex and partying and beer, hence don't get so angry...IT'S TO BE EXPECTED!'

We are Christians. We're set apart from others, called upon to do more than just what is expected of us. We are called to turn the other cheek, to go the extra mile, to give up our cloaks. We are called to be gracious, to be humble, to rebuke a brother kindly, not to indulge in slander, gossip and personal attacks.

Shouldn't our lifestyle, our daily actions, our BLOGGING, go by these principles? Otherwise, are we really Christians? Or are we no better than the pre-Reformation Catholics, going to church to get a free "Get-Out-Of-Hell" card?

Think about this, Mr. Undergraduate. Better still, PRAY about it. It's ok to be wrong, so long as you ABC. Christians are all sinners; the difference between us and others is that we Admit it, we Believe Jesus has come to die for it, and we Confess our sins and accept Jesus as our saviour.

to confused;

You've probably read all that I've written to undergraduate up there; same applies to you. As well as a little bit extra:

"..thing is, as bad as all this things sound, it is the TRUTH.."

THIS IS NOT TRUTH. The slander and gossip up there, malicious or not, is NOT TRUTH. It's SPECULATION. It's composed of phrases like:

"Obviously you're not an accountant. Haven't you heard of SELECTIVE REPORTING meh?"

"...you do one or a combination of these activities:
a) listening
b) sleeping (I mean during conference)
c) laughing (when speakers joke or talk rubbish, and at times even talking to himself)..."

"...established that some family Gunerats are..."

THIS IS NOT TRUTH! THIS IS NOT TRANSPARENCY! THIS IS NOT ACCOUNTABILITY! THIS IS NOT GRACE! This is SLANDER, MALICE and GOSSiP! Such comments are enough to get anybody sued in court for slander or libel!

to all commenters who write prayers on the blog:

Don't be like the Pharisees who prayed and fasted in public in an ostentatious manner. Be like Hannah, who quietly prayed by herself and away from public scrutiny, while everyone else was feasting. If you want to pray, pray; no need to tell everybody that you did! No need to write out the prayer on the blog! If you want to inform TTC that you're praying for them, just write in a quick 'I'm praying for you'.

Yours,
The Index Finger; November 2, 2008 at 2:42 PM
confused said...: index, i hv just 2 questions, how do u know all this is not truth? u got any proof to show it is not the truth? If so, pls share with us and we'll gladly listen. otherwise, pls don't shout at the top of yr lungs and say its slander and malicious.yes, i say shout because of all the capital letters u use.; November 2, 2008 at 3:16 PM
abc said...: 2/11/08
Thank you Siew Chyuan for giving me some answers on my blog under anonymous on 1/11/08......

I would like to say, SP. SAP, AP, BOD could learn from you.

They should be bold enough to face the congregation (getting very little now - just came home from the 1st service) - problems, questions need to be addressed before we can move onwards.

The ball is in their court - thank the blog master for allowing us to air our views here - we have done our part but some say were are washing dirty linen in public - maybe true - but has the leadership of the church ever loved us enough to speak to us, to advise us and bring reconciliation?

I hope those who express exasperation and displeasure over this blog will understand that currently we have no other options to access the leaders of the church. Try talking to them and then you will begin to understand our frustrations!!!!

anc

abc; November 2, 2008 at 3:19 PM
Anonymous said...: 4 Fingers pointing back at you,

$75,000 figure was spent cavalierly on USA Global Pastor Network trip instead of on evangelistic work. Major part of it was spent on business class fares. Can you justified spending it on some junior members of the family. How can SP justified spending that amount on networking with other pastors. Aren't they saved?

You asked for truth and transparency and that's was not given to us flock who have to raised some fuss. These mission funds were raised from some of the folks who are widows, widowers, pensioners, retirees, unemployed, underemployed, just retrenched, about-to-be retrenched (global recession already), houswives, househusbands, youth, children, toddlers.

The EGM process was subverted by the threat and intimidation of legal action. Are you threatening us here again?

Is that an action of a God fearing servant?; November 2, 2008 at 3:20 PM
Anonymous said...: The figures that appear in this blog are the Truth, Transparent and reflects Accountability to us Calvarites!!!! When SP feeds on the church trough he has lost all rights of privacy and should be Truthful, Accountable aND Transparent with the mission funds. We (the BOD)trusted him when he asked directly or indirectly for this mission funds. Even if he was to personally go to the Amazonian jungles to evangelize he still has to give a report as all other missionaries do to their contributors.

How can he say otherwise. Isn't it duplicitious of SP and you (index finger pointing sycophant or devil advocate) to say that he shouldn't be accountable.

Do not be disingenous to suggest that we go half-cocked with accusation such as the India trip. When questioned he metioned about it but not about these significant US trips. However his sidestep or misdirection, the moderators corrected it. For you to bring this point here shows that you are niggardly and facetious.; November 2, 2008 at 3:49 PM
confused said...: also,may i add that it is people like u, mr.index, which is making people like me even more sure tat what SP is doing is wrong...all talk and no substance!; November 2, 2008 at 4:05 PM
Lie Detector said...: Index finger a.k.a. why so long a.k.a anonymous 2:33am a.k.a peach, etc.

GET OFF THE BLOG IF YOU DON"T LIKE TO BE TOLD THE TRUTH!

Stop pretending! Just admit you are a sp supporter.....you are not welcome on this blog where the people of Calvary Church are free to express their true feelings about all that has been happening [viz. the abuse, the hidden things of darkness, the deceit, the corruption, etc, which have been perpetrated by so-called servants of God]!; November 2, 2008 at 4:21 PM
Middle Path said...: ... reconciliation and preserving the unity of the body is what we need ... unfortunately i do not see any sincere effort coming from the church leadership and it is obvious that comments on this blog do not reflect this desire as well ... sigh ...; November 2, 2008 at 4:27 PM
Undergraduate abcdefgh said...: HALLOW

index finger, your finger is pointing at your own self. Your words biting at you.; November 2, 2008 at 4:36 PM
index finger said...: to lie detector: I am not an SP supporter, and in fact I have asked TTC to moderate this forum. I am not anonymous 2:33 am, whoever (s)he is. I am not peach, and in fact have spoken out against peach before. I too ask for truth and transparency, but I do not ask for gossip, malicious name-calling and slander. And unless you are a member of TTC, lie detector, you have no call to tell me I am not welcome on this blog, founded by TTC, run by TTC, but sadly not moderated enough by TTC (a fact which I hope the TTC will change).

to confused: I am asking that we refrain from spreading rumours and name-calling. I have capitalised my words for emphasis. May I ask you whether you can substantiate EVERY SINGLE comment that has been posted up there with hard evidence? Is it not up to you people who make these allegations to prove them?

to 4 fingers: I have no problem with transparency. I am an ardent supporter of TTC, and have been even before the AGM and before they were given the name 'TTC'. I ask for truth and transparency, not for malicious name-calling and gossiping.

to anonymous: I DO NOT, DID NOT, and WILL NOT for ONE MOMENT say that SP is not accountable. What I WILL say is that the people here on this blog should not indulge in gossiping, spreading slander and malicious name-calling, all under the guise of TRUTH. Your actions hurt the TTC by giving the TTC a bad name, and legal action CAN be taken against you.

To the TTC:
Once again, I repeat my plea for moderation on this blog. I understand that you are professionals who are very busy with your work and also more important TTC issues. However, allowing such rampant malice to run freely on your blog will harm the TTC's campaign for truth and make yourselves liable to legal action. Remember Raja Petra Kamarudin, who was once remanded for not checking the comments on his blog.

Ever-patiently,
The Index Finger; November 2, 2008 at 4:45 PM
index finger said...: Once again, I clarify myself.

I do not mention 'legal action' to threaten, only to warn and caution.

I do not call for a halt to the TTC's activities, only that the people on this forum check their (rudders) tongues and show true Christian love, grace and forgiveness.

I do not claim that the US expenditures are entirely justified, only that we should not speculate idly on the use of that money until sheer hard proof is provided (perhaps by the TTC) on the actual usage of that money.

I do not claim that SP is not side-stepping any issues, I only ask that you people do not indulge in name-calling and call down hate-filled curses on their family name.

I do not claim to be an SP supporter or even a TTC member; I am but a mere Calvarite, a mere Christian, who is speaking out against the angry hatred running wild on this forum.

I DO claim that I frequently see, not only on this forum but every Sunday at church, 'supporters' of TTC sarcastically putting down the church, gossiping about real or imagined crimes of the SP, indulging in malicious name-calling and whispered curses against SP and family.

I DO call for the TTC members to try, as much as possible, to regulate the comments page and check (block) such hatred-filled commenters from ruling the forum.

I DO pray for the forgiveness of all the hatred-filled commenters, and pray for the healing of their angry souls.

Ever-patiently,
The Index Finger; November 2, 2008 at 4:58 PM
It won't be long said...: Dear all,

Let's continue to intercede and pray for God's intervention in this CC saga. I believe all of us, on either side of the divide, want this to be resolved in love not for any man, but for our Creator God.

And I believe the matter will be resolved soon, very soon. It won't be long. Amen.; November 2, 2008 at 6:20 PM
hm said...: Dear Index (2/11 @2.00 a.m.)

I am not the webmaster. As you may notice I submitted my posting to a few of my TT friends on 6th October. The webmaster posted it on 1st November. I wrote this posting because of the ridiculous and condescending answer given to one of my buddies at the EGM. I then realized that most Calvarites do not have the list of trips made. And the four TTG members had laboriously copied this info for us when they were allowed to look at the CIM accounts.

I agree with bamboo conspiracy. We must always maintain our dignity and Christian attributes especially when we are hurt, angry or disappointed. We must not lash out in anger. Others may do so but we must not. Otherwise we would be reduced to their level of unchristian behavior. All my postings are in my name. I have not commented except when asked to respond, again always in my name. Unfortunately just as I do not seem to be able to influence the BOD or the pastors, I also do not have much influence over the TT members. And I believe most of the extreme comments are not from the TTG because we always remind each other to maintain proper decorum when blogging on this site. The webmaster seems to have removed comments which are deemed unacceptable and I have to trust his/her judgment.

Hong Meng; November 2, 2008 at 6:36 PM
Anonymous said...: No pastor anywhere should travel like a businessmen doing G D's work. I always tell my kids that Jesus can ride into Jerusalem in a chariot but he chose to ride on a young donkey belonging to some one else.

I am a part time ministry worker with a full time job and drives around in a 1984 Nissan from 1997 after the financial collapse. Prior to that I was driving around in a 1984 Mercedes 200E.

My Nissan is giving me a lot of problems lately, if there is some kind sould who wants to donate a second hand car i.e Proton 1.5I or lesser please call me or leave a message.

Additionally, I have 2 fully adopted kids with me. one is going to a technical school studying motor car repair and his monthly shool fees RM 1500+. The other is still in government school.

Since I have been raising them since they are babies, I would really appreciate if some kind Christians could now co adopte them to ensure they are given a chance to really be someone someday.

KEN 0176615739; November 2, 2008 at 6:59 PM
Winslow said...: Well said, brother Jay.

You are absolutely right in reminding us that the going-ons at CC have become a revelation and have enabled our fellow brothers in other churches to re-examine themselves in the light of events discussed in CT, and hopefully in the process correct any internal flaws that may exist in their church structure and governance.

At times we Christians are afraid to either reveal the truth or see the truth revealed for fear that it will hurt others, and that it will split the local church.

Sure, truth does hurt at times, and we are witnessing this in CC, but if we love God and His Church we need to be courageous to go through it, and if need be, bite the bullet, so to say.

Even if we come out of this saga wounded, spiritually and emotionally, and hopefully not physically, it's certainly worth it if God's Kingdom is firmly established in our land. God's Mighty Holy Spirit certainly knows how to heal and restore His church.

Initially I was also hesitant to subscribe to the cause of TTG. By the way, there's no membership roll, and all are welcome as there are definitely no PRIVILEGES at all. But one caution though - be prepared for non-stop criticisms by those on the other side of the divide.

But having seen events unfolding and truths being revealed in recent months, I can't help but have a strong witness in my spirit that the cause of the TTG - Truth, Transparency and Good Governance - will not split the church, by this I mean not only CC but more importantly the local Christian community.

I'm convicted that the cause championed by TTG will make the Church of Jesus Christ in this land even stronger as we soldier on to win this nation for our Lord.

And having attended CC for more than 26 years and served full-time for more than 5 years, I'm equally sad that matters have developed to this extent.

Nevertheless, I'm prepared to play whatever role necessary in ensuring TRUTH, TRANSPARENCY and GOOD GOVERNANCE, to be upheld not only by CC, but more importantly, by all churches and Christian organisations in this land.

This, I believe wholeheartedly, is what our God requires of us all if we are to be His witnesses.

Our God is definitely on the side of Truth.

God bless.; November 2, 2008 at 7:11 PM
YTF said...: Dear Winslow

We were initially rather cautious of you long time ago.

But now we thank God for you for willing to stand up for the Truth.

God will surely honour and bless you and your family.; November 2, 2008 at 9:24 PM
Simpleman said...: CC is now being closely scrutinised by many, from concerned Calvarites, to Christians from other churches both locally and abroad, and also the general public.

What the CC leadership does will have far-reaching implications not only for CC worshippers but also for our brethren in other churches and people of other faiths.

If CC truly wants to be recognised as a fountainhead church, it must be seen to walk the talk, that we uphold truth in every sense of the word.

It's meaningless for the CC leadership to constantly boast that we are a fountainhead church, but continue to ignore calls for truth, transparency and good governance.

In the eyes of the Christian community and the general public, there is no substance at all in our claim to be a fountainhead church.

Shake us O Lord if You must so that we will develop morally and spiritually so that others will look up to us as the true fountainhead church, and not what we say we are.

It's the QUALITY not the QUANTITY that counts in the Kingdom of God.

Let's arise and march on for TRUTH, TRANSPARENCY and GOOD GOVERNANCE. CC must set HIGHER STANDARDS than the world. Otherwise, the world will laugh at us and this will be a big disgrace to the Kingdom of God. All of us are answerable to God.

Think about it!; November 2, 2008 at 9:39 PM
Ah Ngau said...: Let us not be like "the emperor with no clothes", proudly declaring we are a fountainhead church when we only have a head but no fountain that brings forth countless blessings to others.

Let us pray to God to fully equip us to be a channel of His blessings.

God forgive us for our pride in thinking we are a fountainhead church when we are not, for You know our fruits all these years.

But Father, if You so desire us to be that fountainhead church, show us how and prepare us for the task ahead. Amen.; November 2, 2008 at 9:52 PM
Joseph Gerard said...: Hi Bro Vijay,

Very well said. Though many would be hurt both spiritually and emotionally, but at the end of it all, let Truth, Transparency and Good Governance prevail especially in the church.

As the saying goes, "Action speaks louder than words." We've been fighting against corruption, mismanagement of funds etc. for the running of our country. But what more as Christians, as a Church, we should show much greater examples within the church context itself.

I've heard from various individuals that the TTG have actually put CC in particular, and the Church in general, to shame when they started this blog. They questioned why must we wash our dirty linens in public. But I believe probably TTG have been pushed to a corner, and that they have no other choice, but to create this blog, Calvary Today. I would also believe that their intentions were to let the Calvarites know the "behind the scenes" (so to speak) happenings in CC. Kindly correct me if I'm wrong my fellow bros & sis in TTG.

I'm glad to hear from Bro Vijay that there are now some churches 'paying more attention' and calling for more transparency and good governance within their churches after reading this blog. This is the way to go.

I pray that the Holy Spirit would continue to guide each and everyone of us in our words and actions. At the end of it all, may Truth & Justice prevail, as our Lord is the Lord of Truth & Just.

"Blessed are the poor in spirit,
For theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Blessed are those who mourn,
For they shall be comforted.
Blessed are the meek,
For they shall inherit the earth.
Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness,
For they shall be filled.
Blessed are the merciful,
For they shall obtain mercy.
Blessed are the pure in heart,
For they shall see God.
Blessed are the peacemakers,
For they shall be called sons of God.
Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness' sake,
For theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Blessed are you when they revile and persecute you, and say all kinds of evil against you falsely for My sake." (Matt 5:3-11)

God bless.; November 2, 2008 at 10:02 PM
To Our Pastors said...: An excerpt from "Financial integrity in the ministry" by Crown Financial Ministries dedicated to SP and other pastors of Calvary Church

Because pastors hold a position of trust in the opinion of most members of a congregation, pastors must avoid situations that may tend to lead to mistrust or suspicions of financial mismanagement by the pastor.

In order to avoid this potentially compromising situation, pastors need to consider the following.

1) Pastors should never take any money, collected for any reason, home with them. Nonetheless, other than petty cash, money should never be kept at the church for any reason.

2) Pastors should never deposit offerings into the bank. The finance administrator, business administrator, or a member of the board delegated by the business administrator should make deposits. Pastors should never touch, for any reason, any offerings taken for any purpose. They need to treat money given to the church like they would a red-hot stove—stay away from it.

3) Pastors should never cosign a note for the church. Pastors should never allow their names to be placed on the deed (or any proof of ownership) of any property owned by their churches.

4) Pastors should exercise prudence in giving gifts and benefits (graduation gifts, gifts to staff, and so on).

5) Pastors should avoid accepting tithes (especially if the tithe is paid in cash) from members or attendees. They should encourage the givers either to give their tithes at church or mail the tithes to the church. In fact, pastors should try never to accept any gifts on behalf of the church. They should encourage the givers to give the gifts to their church treasurers, financial administrators, or business administrators. If it is necessary for pastors to accept gifts on behalf of their churches, they should issue receipts for the gifts immediately upon the acceptance of them.

6) Pastors should avoid accepting honorariums in cash. Insist that all honorariums be paid by checks and paid to the order of their churches. This way, the church business administrators can rightly credit the honorariums as income to the pastors. If pastors must accept cash, the giver should receive a cash receipt for the amount of cash given. A copy of the receipt should then be given to the church business administrator.

7) Pastors should never solicit gifts, rewards, prizes, or benefits for themselves.

8) Pastors should, if at all possible, refuse all gifts, rewards, prizes, or benefits that compromise the integrity of the ministry.

9) Pastors should never borrow money from pastoral accounts for personal use. Likewise they should not use their church's credit cards or charge accounts set up for ministry use for personal use or benefit.

10) Pastors should not use church property or equipment without written approval from at least one board member, business administrator, or financial administrator.

11) Pastors should not expect reimbursements unless accurate records are submitted, along with a receipt confirming the expenditure and attesting to the fact that the expenditure was ministry related.

12) Pastors should not request an advance on their salaries unless warranted by an emergency and then only after submitting a request to the financial administrator or business administrator in writing and receiving approval of the advance in writing.

13) Pastors should never have the church's CPA or attorney prepare his or her personal income taxes.; November 2, 2008 at 10:04 PM
Ah Beng No. 2 said...: Good article, "To Our Pastors"

It's high time that CC, and for that matter, every church in this land, adopt such ministerial code of ethics, so that pastors will always be above reproach, at least on money matters which the evil one has used to "knock out" many a pastor.

Pastors, I suggest you adopt these pointers as your code of ethics.

Pastors, please please treat money given to the church like you would a red-hot stove - stay away from it, please!; November 2, 2008 at 10:15 PM
Ah Beng No. 2 said...: And before I forget, I must remind those already burnt by the red-hot stove (money given to the church) - not the stock market - to immediately repent and return the money tomorrow if you can, or latest before Sunday when you preach.

This is a serious matter. God will not be mocked!; November 2, 2008 at 10:20 PM
New Beginning said...: Dear To Our Pastors,

Your list of points for pastors to consider is excellent even though some pastors may have failed in almost all the points highlighted by you.

There are alot of things that our CC have to learn in the proper governance of the church and the role of the pastors.; November 2, 2008 at 10:52 PM
CantRuin said...: to: Index finger

whatever you said..your motive is clear, the way the different ones commented in this blog is similar to the way you present yourself here.

If the blog is not what you expected to see, I propose that concern calvarite, please go ahead to various authorites and the police.; November 3, 2008 at 12:01 AM
WW said...: My wife and I are rather disturbed by SP's sermon on Sunday morning. It pertains to his point when he said, and I quote from his notes:

"Faith will cause the power of Jesus to operate and God will be glorified (Mark 2: 11 & 12).

We don't need to say that we give glory to God.

When we act in faith, that act itself will produce results and the result itself will glorify God."

We, and for that matter many others who attended the 2nd service, disagree with SP's teaching on this point.

As believers, we definitely must glorify God for His blessings, and at times even for happenings that we deem as "misfortunes" . That's what testimonies are for. In this context of Scriptures, the people in the house literally saw Jesus' miracle performed on the paralytic man, and hence the result itself glorified God.

We should never stop glorifying God as He fully deserves it.

So remember, fellow brethren, never stop glorifying God. Amen!

Blessings

Winslow; November 3, 2008 at 12:08 AM
A concern mom said...: To: Siew Chyuen, Hon Meng, Winslow, & all those genuine TTG,

Pardon me my english caus I seldom writes. I have some genuine question awaits for your reply.

Below is the comment from index that I found truthful that I copy & paste here,

index said...
Why is everybody vilifying SP, SP's family and the BOD? The commenters claim to be loving, concerned Calvarites who are just seeking the truth? But what has all this commenting degenerated into?

Rumour-mongering. Vilification. 'Insult-contests' in which everyone wants to outdo one another in decrying the evil SP & BOD.

Just look at the India accounts case. As soon as the post is published, the first few commenters jump in on the fact that the India trip is not there, launching into angry tirades aimed at SP... until someone points out that these are 2007 accounts.

After reading mostly negative remarks by TT supportors, what is your comment on it? I'm not asking whether CT can moderate it more efficiently or blog is meant to freedom of speech & etc, but what is your opinion on all the name calling, insult, malicious claim & etc? Best still if you can tell me whether is it "Christlike"?

It is very important to me cause this blog has brought to my attention by my 15 year old son. I caught him reading this blog and participating in writing horrible accusation towards SP & BOD.

I know many of you TTG are senior mature christians who maybe once was serving as a leader in church. Can't help but I want to ask you why when some commentors bashing SP & BOD or insulting them or calling them names, and all TTG like HM, Winslow, Siew Chyuen & etc just choose to be quite? Why none stood up to call for order & warning those who write comments furiously? Why all of you always say you have no way of influencing furious commentors or it is their right to freely express their hateful emotion here? I hope to see mature TTG can stand up to warn, to rebuke kindly or to correct furious commentors but none of you seems very eager to do so. Only a "mere Calvarite like Index eager to do the "dirty job", so to speak.

On the contrary, all of you just overwhelmed by commenting on exposing the truth & telling people truth does hurts & etc. May I know does comments that calling family name, insulting, malicious claims & etc matters to you all.

On one hand you all claim to be devoted Christian seek for "Truth, Transparency, & Good governance", on the other hand you all did not really eager to correct naive minds that was mislead here. That really make me wonder whether you cause you have just lost my credit towards you.

I really hope TTG can be bold enough to correct firmly & boldly any insultful commentators here. Don't give in to them infear of losing TTG's popularity. I would have more respect towards you if you all TTG can acted more fairly & Godly.

Sorry if I offended anyone here. My intention is just to protect any young mind thinking that this is one of the most informative christian blog/site, only to find this ungodly & unbiblical blog.; November 3, 2008 at 12:13 AM
Kingdomgovernance said...: I urge Calvary Church Deacons to consider the 13 good points on Pastor's financial integrity by Crown Financials.

Biblically, in the book of Acts, Pastors shall confine themselves to preaching God's word and fasting. They don't touch financial matters.

Sn Pastor as CEO, signatory and trustee of properties is very wrong. AG's model easily gives rise to abuse of finance. In the case of Calvary Church KL, unhealthy development is so evident. Sn Pastor does not subject himself to accountability group. He is Prince but behaves as King. His leadership style is somewhat similar to Dr M - dominating and controlling at the expense of good governance, transparency and responsibility.

Constitutional Review needs to be done. Deacons hold the key to the healthy state of the church. At this hour of church's lowest ebb, deacons either do something or resign to take responsibility.; November 3, 2008 at 1:05 AM
thewhitesheep said...: After all that has been said (and implied) in this blog, what I don't understand is...

1. How can the BOD, SP, SAP and other Pastors in CC not respond? (I am sure that if I was wrongly accused, I would want to clarify the situation ASAP)

2. The entire BOD (I believe) are very professional (and higly capable) individuals. Are they not worried about the ramification this will have on their 'professional' / career reputation? (IE. doctore, lawyers, accountants, bankers etc.)

3. How can SP, SAP, AP and BOD continue to 'pretend' as if nothing is wrong each Sunday? (I find this absolutely baffling!)

4. What are NECF, AG Malaysia and other national Christian organizations doing about this? Is there NO ONE who is willing to be the first to step up and ask the 'hard' question? Or are they afraid that by doing so, they themselves will open up their own can of worms?

5. Lastly, and I am also posing this question to myself - as a Calvarite, "what am I doing about this?" It's easy to suggest that the TT "do this..." and "do that..." - but what can WE (as Calvarites) all do?

I understand we all need to "vent" our frustrations, but we also need to be pro-active.

Maybe HM (or anyone of the TTG members) can advice us on how we can actively participate together to seek "Truth, Transparency, & Good governance".

I truly believe that God is bringing a change to CC, and I pray that we continue to seek Him for - patience, understanding and tolerance.

God Bless!

thewhitesheep; November 3, 2008 at 1:27 AM
Winslow said...: Dear concerned mom,

I share your concern as I'm also a parent of 2 teenagers, aged 18 & 19

As concerned Calvarites, we take it upon ourselves as God would direct us to do whatever we can to bring about positive changes to CC.

But rightly or wrongly, this blog being a public blog accessible by everyone throughout the world where internet access is not censored, provides a platform for differing views, and also language used.

While some bloggers are very cultured using refine language, there are others who are sarcastic, and at times outright demeaning and vulgar.

It's difficult to control every blogger but if you take the trouble to go through all the comments, and I mean on every posting, you would have noticed that some of us, not necessary in our revealed identities, have attempted to moderate by reminding other bloggers to be careful with their words and tone when commenting.

For that matter, I've even posted prayers in my comments to "appeal for forgiveness, direction, etc".

Hence, it's not altogether correct to say we have not done anything to moderate. In fact, the CT administrator has reminded us many times to be careful with our words and not to get overboard as the whole world is watching.

As a parent myself, I suggest that you advise your 15-year child not to blog here if he's not mature enough. I rather you encourage him to read God's Word and concentrate on his studies and serve God faithfully.

As in any blog, you blog at your own risk. The administrator can only do that much. By the way, I'm not the administrator and I'm also taking risk by blogging in my truth identity. Since God is my TRUE witness, I do not fear.

I sincerely hope you understand my point. Thank you.; November 3, 2008 at 8:43 AM
Foong.L said...: To : Winslow and concerned mom

Well said Winslow, i agreed with you fully! I am also a mom with two growing young adult, I personally believe that our children need to be instilled with the right values and teaching in lives, be it spiritual, emotional, intellectual, moral and etc. However, The children will have to lead their own lives too eventually. Being concerned with what CT is posting is not good enough, reason being, they could have even log on to other blogs which is far more destructive and unpredictable than you as a concerned mom can apprehend.

Whereas CT is merely doing their best by dissemination infomation and issus concerning calvary church to the concern members, whoever commented should know what they are doing anyway. At times, I am also quite doubful who are these people who published certain comments which is not so 'pleasing'
, the identity of that person may not necessarity from the TTG or concern calvarite, it could be the making of someone else nontheless.

I hope those who repeatedly call for moderation would understand and it would not be fair to publish the postive but delete the negative.; November 3, 2008 at 9:33 AM
a concern mom said...: Thank you Winslow for your speedy & kind reply. I understand you point fully.

Being not so advance on Internet, I was concern for what my child is feeding his mind on the internet.

Foong do make so point that I couldn't agree less, is that there are even more dangerous site that can definitely poison a child's mind. For example like, porn site, game site, & etc. But as for a christian website/blog seemingly quoting scriptures & prayers, yet filled with hatred comments & milicious remark & judgemental speculation caught me by surprised.

I can eventually counsel my child the obvious sins on surfing the porn site & neglecting study over surfing obsessively on net, but I have a tough time myself figuring on how to advise my son stop reading a "christian site" for "concern Calvarites" as a forum place for our own church members.

To CT, Wislow, Siew Chyuen, Hong Meng & TTG,

Thank you Winslow again for you elaboration on how I should view CT & your advise to suggest my son to stop reading this blog due to his inability to discern right & wrong in CC matters. I'm not suggesting anything like moderating all comments, deleting furious comments or even shutting down CT like some readers suggested. All I'm asking is that, can CT & TTG be more fair to correct & rebuke gently any wrath, untruthful & judgemental commentors.

I enjoy reading some of your sharing on Pastor sermons, devotion & prayers. If you can see the need to share & disagree even on SP sunday sermon, why I see so little efforts on correcting & rebuking wrong accusation towards SP on certain wrong perhaps SP & BOD did not commit? For example, just look at the India accounts case. As soon as the post is published, the first few commenters jump in on the fact that the India trip is not there, launching into angry tirades aimed at SP... until someone points out that these are 2007 accounts. What is TTG opinion on this example?
Bro.Hong Meng posted the info on SP traveling budget, cause it may benefit us a little better. Bro.Hong Meng (or any TTG) also see the need to pray find out "evidence" of luxurious traveling by SP, but too busy & too little efforts to correct those wrongly accuse SP for halftruth about an India trip that he lied? Please let me be honest to how I felt. I can't help but to feel could it because TTG was afraid of losing their popularity & supports if they rebuke certain wrong commenters/TT supports. I can't help but to feel that whether the TTG is actually rejoicing over commenter's untruthful & unjust judgement they proclaim on SP. Can't help but to feel TTG true intention to bring down SP at all cost by using people's emotion. Correct me if I'm wrong, cause to me many of you I know is much better than that.

Please correct/answer me on the context specifically mentioned above. TTG, you don't have to tell me your purpose & calling & plan to help CC. Just give me the answers to my questions.

I know nothing will stop TTG to help change CC & bring out truth & transparency. To be honest, I'm not suggesting anything bad about it. It is a need for any organization to establish truth & transparency, but I failed to fathom & hesitate support fully due to the lack of fair actions on the TTG on all the wrongful & hateful comments of SP & his family. Cause I believe that if there is a to establish Truth & Transparency in CC, It will succeed not necessary it has to be thru TTG.; November 3, 2008 at 10:50 AM
Puzzled said...: To Index finger

I copied your comment:

"I DO claim that I frequently see, not only on this forum but every Sunday at church, 'supporters' of TTC sarcastically putting down the church, gossiping about real or imagined crimes of the SP, indulging in malicious name-calling and whispered curses against SP and family."

Are you not assuming and presuming. How on earth do you know what this group is doing on Sunday. Eavesdropping? Did you personally hear all these yourself or are you assuming. I do not know that "seeing" can tell you so much what people are saying. Oh I forgot - you must have learned how to lip read!

Hey TTG look around each Sunday and see who is eyeing you with a scrow on his on her face - this may be index finger.; November 3, 2008 at 10:50 AM
SUE said...: Hi Vijay
Praise the Lord for people like you, these days, i heard a lot of 'stories' of church governance, ethic, spiritual conducts etc..
there is a ardent and urgent cry for all qualities mentioned above. Thank you for your sacrfice and love for the Kingdom of God, i as a supporter for these recommend that our leadership in calvary church, please do read comments and article written by Brother Vijya. I will continue to uphold you in my prayer.; November 3, 2008 at 11:16 AM
Another concerned mum said...: Dear concern mom,

I know you are concerned with what is happening in CC, the effect it may have on our children and to the many other church members. I feel how you feel about the way things are happening in CC.
But are you aware that the TTG has actually exhausted all possible ways that they know to get the BOD and SP to make right what is not right? You should take time to read the blog from the beginning until now. Then you will understand the frustration and disappointment that they face. BOD is not doing anything about the whole issue. They have just merely swept the whole thing under carpet and go on as usual, pretending nothing has happened.
I have been in the church for 27 years and I have seen many things which happen which is not right. How do we make things right? How can we make things right when the SP that we know has changed? He has lost his calling as the shepherd of CC and does not have love for his sheep. SP has lost his shepherd's heart. You may ask how do you know SP has lost his love for the church? There are too many incidence showing that.So are we going to continue to let him be our shepherd?; November 3, 2008 at 11:26 AM
Tim said...: Hello concern mom

I dont think that you need the 3 persons mentioned above to answer your questions specifically. During the EGM, SP mentioned that he need to fly to India, its ministry works. Hong Meng's posting on all trips and travel did not mentioned the years anyway. If ever someone here commented wrongly, it had been corrected by someone else, so to speak, unless you tried to prove to the world that you are the one who is so 'sharp' that you had corrected the mistake, and on the other hand in your heart and mind, you expected the adminstrator to do the correction, if that is the case, praise God, for you who knows how to correct the wrong!

I believe CT had done their to edit most of the time.. if you wish, I suggest you start a blog on SP travel and minstry too for his good. You are very good too in the way you blog!(give credit when credit is due)

I also read the many comments, and
found that many ones try to correct gently some nasty comment too..Do you want to find out who they are? Is it important to you?
these people use their psedo names.

Please read Brother Vijay's comment.; November 3, 2008 at 11:34 AM
Concerned Calvarite said...: Dear concerned mom,

I suggest you read all the postings (articles) and comments for each posting from day 1 to have a better understanding on the issues at hand.

By doing so, maybe you will have a clearer picture of the issues at hand and not just jump on the India issue, which if you read the comments carefully, is not on the list of travelling expenses.

SP conveniently used this to illustrate his point, altho' the audited accounts that TTG and the deacons had access prior to the EGM were for the period until end-2007, and the India trip is in mid-2008.; November 3, 2008 at 11:36 AM
Concerned Dad said...: Dear Concerned Mom,

I noticed that you are beginning to enjoy posting on this blog, having accidentally seen your 15-year son, commenting here.

Better don't let your son see you doing it, for he may be affected by your comments too.

This blog is addictive. Better stay out, or else you may also be a bad influence on your son.; November 3, 2008 at 11:41 AM
Simple Housewife said...: Dear Concerned Mom and all those who have felt offended reading this blog one way or another.

I am a TTG member and also a mother of 2 young teens. Due to my involvement with the TTG matters, I have been reading and blogging here since CT started. My girls now always make fun of me when they see me at the computer. Infact, we have to take turns now using this electronic gadget. I explain to them what we are doing but I also tell them to stay away from this issue but if they have any question, they should ask me and I will explain to them myself.
Of course, it is easier said than done, I know.

It is quite unfortunate that some of your children are affected by info they read in this blog. I believe the TTG members would not want any, especially the dear young ones, to be hurt, because most of us also have young and growing up children like many of you out there. Us, who are being in the front line, are in a more difficult position and our children are even more affected in many ways.

Coming to the young ones reading this blog. I have personally encouraged the young people who need clarification to approach us on Sundays, to speak and ask us questions personally. Uncle Winslow has also availed himself to talk to any young person if they wish to. We would encourage parents in this dilema to seek answers for yourselves then help the young ones out.

A young person suggested that TTG make available a channel whereby people who wish to know more can write to. We thank this person for that suggestion and our CT Administrator has included this here in CT.

So if any one has something REALLY BOGGING you, please write to
calvarytoday@gmail.com

As this blog does not belong to an individual, consent must be sought from all, before a decision can be carried out. So the call for comments to be MODERATED needs to be deliberated upon by the TTG members. In the meantime, I believe, the administrator/s are doing their best to ensure that the purposes of this Blog is adhered to.

Dear Concerned Mom, I believe you know me personally and if I can be of help to you, please contact me.

God bless.
Karen; November 3, 2008 at 12:50 PM
Neverending Story said...: Can someone please enlighten me about the whole issue. I am sure from this blog, many readers know what is happening in CC, BOD , SP..... Now the question is what is the next positive step of action we are going to take (Result...Result, not negative comments anymore)

May God have mercy on us; November 3, 2008 at 2:45 PM
Index Finger said...: To the angry commenters; puzzled, cantruin, etc.:

I know you feel that I am criticising the TTG and possibly even supporting the SP. Rest assured I am not; I do not pledge my 'support' to SP or TTG; rather I am on the side of those that are truly humble, truly God-fearing and who show true Christianlike behaviour. Currently, I believe the only people doing so here are the (actual) TTG and a few other commenters.

Once again, I ask that the angry people commenting on this forum to PLEASE moderate the posts, gossip, name-calling and rumour-mongering. If you have an allegation of wrongdoing against SP, then by all means, obtain evidence and present it to the TTG.

Teenagers and young adults are also reading this forum, as the concerned parents here have already pointed out. To their maturing minds, the speculative remarks written here may well be taken as fact rather than just hearsay.

It pains me to see the malicious remarks on this forum, and I wish to make one last observation: I notice that the comments page on calvarytoday is always very active, as there is plenty of fodder for gossip. However, beritacalvary which focuses on how Christians should behave in a Christlike manner in such a situation, is pretty much devoid of the kind of attention paid here.

I wonder why...

Not an SP supporter
nor a TTG member
nor a 'scowling face eavesdropping on the TTG'
nor an outsider poking her nose into Calvary's business
I am but,

A mere Christian,
Index Finger; November 3, 2008 at 2:52 PM
POLICE said...: after all the stories, most feedback i gathered here is that there is some element of breach of in financial and money matters in the church account, in CIM account, in WAGRA CARE Agency.

At the EGM, it is obvious, the accountability is not in place.

Yes, i remember reading the 9th update, asking for poll and action
to be taken. I fully support all the action proposed. Go to various authorities, and police.; November 3, 2008 at 3:03 PM
Anonymous said...: Let us give postitive comments/actions to be taken since most of the truth are revealed about the CC and SP. Let us doing something about it than keep commenting.; November 3, 2008 at 3:18 PM
Lie detector said...: Index Finger,

You have the same modus operandi as 'why so long,' who also claimed to be neutral (i.e. on nobody's side but on the side of humble Christians, like TTG), but at the same time, and inthe same breath, you denounce TTG as well! This comment by 'puzzled' shows your hypocrisy:

"To Index finger

I copied your comment:

"I DO claim that I frequently see, not only on this forum but every Sunday at church, 'supporters' of TTC sarcastically putting down the church, gossiping about real or imagined crimes of the SP, indulging in malicious name-calling and whispered curses against SP and family."

Are you not assuming and presuming. How on earth do you know what this group is doing on Sunday. Eavesdropping? Did you personally hear all these yourself or are you assuming. I do not know that "seeing" can tell you so much what people are saying. Oh I forgot - you must have learned how to lip read!

Hey TTG look around each Sunday and see who is eyeing you with a scrow on his on her face - this may be index finger."

Who are you trying to kid?; November 3, 2008 at 3:27 PM
spikeee said...: Dear Concerned mom,

i am probably not the best person to talk to but i do love the young people of calvary dearly. I will definitely still be considered a 'child' at my age.

I've grown up with a love and burden for youths and i WAS (emphasis - WAS) a youth leader at some point in my life *ouch* haha

With that being said, i'd like to offer myself to talk to these youths who have questions about the church and what's going on, albeit me not being the best person to talk to. This might help some of the younger youths who might prefer to speak a "non-adult". haha i'm practically degrading myself from being an adult.

Rest assured, i have and always will encourage those whom i talk to to keep their eyes on Jesus.

I realize it's kinda thick skinned of me to make it sound like i AM ABLE to help your youths etc but all i'm trying to say is that my love for our youths makes me want to help them continue to stay strong and not sin in anger - not that i have already attained this.

So, once again, if i may be of service, i would be delighted to do my small tiny bit for the Kingdom.

maranathazz@hotmail.com
Joel; November 3, 2008 at 3:31 PM
JID said...: lie detector, let's just give index finger the benefit of a doubt and leave it as it is.

I DO agree that we need to keep this blog NON-threatening. We are afterall spiritually-related - all of us.; November 3, 2008 at 3:33 PM
Peter said...: Yes, calling for action, I agreed with the Undergraduate to impose discipline action on the pastor who committed monetary wrong and be grounded.

Yes, I agreed with 'police' to go for all authority and police.

Yes, I Agreed with 'Christy' comment from 'beritacalvary'
btw. read the latest article from 'beritacalvary', then only you will know, the many things our pastor should not have done.; November 3, 2008 at 3:33 PM
obvious said...: Hi all

Negative comments and offended people aside, I would just like to express my deep disappointment in the BOD for not responding to any of our concerns expressed, whether in the form of meetings, letters, emails, blog. I believe that the TTG group have done the best that they could in trying to resolve this matters, and the ball is now in the BOD’s court. Sadly, I do not see much effort from the BOD to try to resolve these issues once and for all. The appointment of the independent lawyer and accountant are by no means an act to resolve these issues – they were more of an act to shut us up. So, BOD, if any of you are reading this, can I plead that you solve this dilemma once and for all. Please don’t let either side, whether it is SP and whether it is the readers of this blog, keep on grieving God. As long as these issues are not resolved by you, BOD…none of these hurt and anger can be healed. Please do something now. Too many people have been hurt and affected by this as a result of your actions, BOD. Far too many.

To concerned mum and all those affected by the ‘negative comments’

Much more people have been affected by SP’s conduct and negative comments towards those who question him. Way much more. Can I suggest you also speak to SP or the BOD about this since they were the cause of all this pain and negativity?; November 3, 2008 at 3:39 PM
joe said...: To: index finger

I can't help it but to say something about your comments. I thought I could just leave you alone like I did why so long aka anonymous aka peach. But Hokkien "lang" say "beh tahan".

Just to quote what you've written:

"I know you feel that I am criticising the TTG and possibly even supporting the SP. Rest assured I am not; I do not pledge my 'support' to SP or TTG; rather I am on the side of those that are truly humble, truly God-fearing and who show true Christianlike behaviour. Currently, I believe the only people doing so here are the (actual) TTG and a few other commenters.

Once again, I ask that the angry people commenting on this forum to PLEASE moderate the posts, gossip, name-calling and rumour-mongering. If you have an allegation of wrongdoing against SP, then by all means, obtain evidence and present it to the TTG.

Teenagers and young adults are also reading this forum, as the concerned parents here have already pointed out. To their maturing minds, the speculative remarks written here may well be taken as fact rather than just hearsay.

It pains me to see the malicious remarks on this forum, and I wish to make one last observation: I notice that the comments page on calvarytoday is always very active, as there is plenty of fodder for gossip. However, beritacalvary which focuses on how Christians should behave in a Christlike manner in such a situation, is pretty much devoid of the kind of attention paid here."

Hello..... index finger. Aren't you contradicting yourself with the comments above. On one hand you said, "rather I am on the side of those that are truly humble, truly God-fearing and who show true Christianlike behaviour." But on the other hand you are judging some of us as being malicious, unchristianlike etc. Aren't you assuming here???

Sorry jid, I know you asked lie detector to give index finger the benefit of the doubt. But "beh tahan leh." Walk the talk lah.; November 3, 2008 at 6:36 PM
Anonymous said...: When a snatch thief is caught,he is brought down and hammered until he is half dead. He would have lost his teeth, bruise his head, broken bones in his hand and other untold injuries. Even death.

When a coporate white collar criminal is caught, he is jailed for 1 year.

When a SP abuses his position, members write blogs to praise and pray for him!

My son read this blog and wants to become a criminal pastor!

What the heck!; November 3, 2008 at 8:13 PM
Anonymous said...: I understand the pastors in Sabah and Sarawak sometimes work without any pay. Their measly pay is about RM 250 per month.

RM 477,625 would pay 16 full time pastors for 10 years. Imagine the number of souls potentially saved.

RM 477,625 only pays for travel of 1 pastor and his wifey....poor stewardship of God's wealth.

How to give an account to GOD on judgement day?

Tell me somebody.; November 3, 2008 at 8:18 PM
Anonymous said...: Paul travelled to many place to preach on his own expense. On his passage to Rome,he was even accused to be the reason for the shipwreck. He has to work and pay for his passages not from the churh!

Can any pastor learn something from Paul?

Comeonlah, we christians only know how to pray and play with church. Not scared of God's wrath and judgement?

Pastors using so much church money... no shamekah?; November 3, 2008 at 8:26 PM
Anonymous said...: Our God is not a God with a weak backbone if you need to know. He is hardening the heart of the pastor and his sheep. He will bring judgement to those who are not good stewards of his wealth and blessings.

Don't wait for the money to be dried up before lamenting. Be good stewards. Be accountable to God not men.

I am alive for 50 years now and this is the first time I come across such massive travel expenses.

Even the CEO of Matsushita where I used to be the FC don't use so much money.

Can believe or not?; November 3, 2008 at 8:31 PM
Anonymous said...: There is a pastor who can have a house in Tropican, Mercedes, Rover etc. living a decadently excessive, opulent lifestyle for all and sundry to see. Where does his wealth comes from?

The church obviously.

Some of his sheep scrap through by taking vegetables and porridge daily. They give the most because they gave their all.

The pastor took all they can because all is not theirs. They want all if all can give.

Does the sheperd cares if the sheep has some grass to eat? The sheperd don't know because he is busy travelling lah!

Come onlah. Don't play pray ok?... pua choo kang.; November 3, 2008 at 8:43 PM
Anonymous said...: Hi,
Relax a bit and be amuse by this joke.

Clean Christian jokes
Thou Shalt Not Lie

Minister was walking down the street when he came upon a group of about a dozen boys, all of them between 10 and 12 years of age.

The group had surrounded a dog. Concerned lest the boys were hurting the dog, he went over and asked "What are you doing with that dog?"

One of the boys replied, "This dog is just an old neighborhood stray. We all want him, but only one of us can take him home. So we've decided that whichever one of us can tell the biggest lie will get to keep the dog."

Of course, the reverend was taken aback. "You boys shouldn't be having a contest telling lies!" he exclaimed. He then launched into a ten minute sermon against lying, beginning, "Don't you boys know it's a sin to lie," and ending with, "Why, when I was your age, I never told a lie."

There was dead silence for about a minute.? Just as the reverend was beginning to think he'd gotten through to them, the smallest boy gave a deep sigh and said, "All right, give him the dog."; November 3, 2008 at 8:54 PM
Ah Beng No.2 said...: To one of the "anonymous" ones whose son read this blog and wants to become a criminal pastor!

As a parent, you must remind him that a criminal pastor may get away on earth, but he definitely can't get away from God when he meet Him face to face.

In fact, the "sentence" is heavier because he is a pastor, first and foremost.

It's better to be an ACA officer so that he can nab the criminal pastor.; November 3, 2008 at 9:03 PM
Dog's life said...: To one of the "anonymous" ones who told the story about the boys and the dog.

The moral of the story is, the dog may not go home with the reverend as it is doubtful whether he's actually a reverend.; November 3, 2008 at 9:10 PM
Clean Joke said...: Never Satisfied - Greedy

Two friends met in the street. One looked sad and almost on the verge of tears. The other man said, "Hey my friend, how come you look like the whole world has caved in?"

The sad fellow said, "Let me tell you. Three weeks ago, an uncle died and left me 50-thousand dollars."

"That's not bad at all...!"

"Hold on, I'm just getting started. Two weeks ago, a cousin I never knew kicked-the-bucket and left me 95-thousand, tax-free to boot."

"Well, that's great! I'd like that."

"Last week, my grandfather passed away. I inherited almost a million."

"So why are so glum?"

"This week - nothing!"; November 3, 2008 at 9:12 PM
Anonymous said...: Here is what I dreamt just now while takig a nap after dinner.... Isaiah 56:10-12

His watchmen [are] blind: they are all ignorant, they [are] all dumb dogs, they cannot bark; sleeping, lying down, loving to slumber.

Yea, [they are] greedy dogs [which] can never have enough, and they [are] shepherds [that] cannot understand: they all look to their own way, every one for his gain, from his quarter.

Come ye, [say they], I will fetch wine, and we will fill ourselves with strong drink; and to morrow shall be as this day, [and] much more abundant.

How? I don't think I can sleep tonight.... need some sleeping pills.; November 3, 2008 at 9:17 PM
Dreamer too said...: Dear anonymous dreamer

You speak in riddle. Can you also interpret your dream for us. We are not Josephs.; November 3, 2008 at 9:48 PM
CC Version said...: Hi Clean Joke,

Our CC version of your joke goes like this:

Two Tan Sris met in the street. One looked sad and almost on the verge of tears. The other said, "Hey my friend, how come you look like the whole world has caved in?"

The sad fellow said, "Let me tell you. In 2000, I received RM30k."

"That's not bad at all...!"

"Hold on, I'm just getting started. In 2003, I got RM68,916."

"Well, that's great! I'd like that."

"Later in 2003, I got RM100k."

"Well, that's great! I'd like that."

"Well from 2004 to 2007, I got RM200k every year."

"You mean, all in you got RM998,916"

"So why are so glum?"

"So far this year - nothing!"; November 3, 2008 at 10:01 PM
Laugh Out Loud said...: Hey, jokers of CT,

Hilarious, man! LOL!; November 3, 2008 at 10:38 PM
money money money said...: Here's my contribution for destressing:-

The best illustration of the value of brief speech reckoned in dollars was given by Mark Twain. His story was that when he had listened for five minutes to the preacher telling of the heathen, he wept, and was going to contribute fifty dollars.

After ten minutes more of the sermon, he reduced the amount of his prospective contribution to twenty-five dollars.

After half an hour more of eloquence, he cut the sum to five dollars.

At the end of an hour of oratory when the plate was passed, he stole two dollars.; November 3, 2008 at 10:43 PM
Index Finger said...: Joe,
You can think what you will. Your opinion is yours, and I recognise that I cannot influence it anymore than I can influence the people here to stop the gossip and slander.

lie detector,
I think I understand now why so many people jump on that comment of mine. Let me clarify myself. What I mean is that I see people like simpleman, nene, etc. on this forum posting gossip and slander, and I asked that they stop it. I also hear people in church - strangers, my acquaintances, etc. - who also spread gossip and rumours. I do not mean to say that the TTG are the ones who are doing so. I do not presume to know the real identities of the people in this forum nor what they do in church.

My conscience is clean, knowing that I speak with no ulterior motives and no intent of hypocrisy. Its up to the people to take heed of the message; I am only the messenger. I've also resolved not to post too much on calvarytoday from now on, as I am qutie busy and I waste too much time defending myself for no apparent reason.

So, I will be ignoring any more comments, personal attacks, accusations, allegations, slander, remarks, etc. directed against me. I only hope that in future, I will see less gossip and malicious comments than I see now... and perhaps more light-hearted jokes.

In peace,
Index Finger; November 3, 2008 at 10:46 PM
Lie Detector said...: Quite a number of people have commented on this blog that they have felt uneasy for a long time, and could sense that something was not quite right with the church, especially with SP & his extravagant lifestyle, but amazingly NOBODY was brave enough to bring the matter up - possibly because no true Christian would want to be seen as slandering 'God's anointed' or gossipping about irregularities in the church, or be seen as 'not submissive to authority'! Hence the BIG MESS today!

And now that CT has done in two months what our dear friend Vijay couldn't do in two years, we praise the Lord for this blog and all the honest comments from Christians who lay bare their souls and TELL IT LIKE IT IS!

Don't let shady characters like Index Finger distract us from our goal, of exposing all these 'secret sins' of SP & SAP, and attempting to set right the wrong committed by SP, SAP & BOD!

It is only supporters of SP who would want to lay a guilt trip on us by accusing us of slandering and gossipping and spreading malicious rumours!

WE KNOW, however, that what has been shared on this blog are true stories, real-life true stories, of the injustice and unrighteous deeds committed by the TAN SRI.; November 3, 2008 at 10:58 PM
True stories said said...: Dear All,

I have said this earlier that whatever stories that were mentioned in this blog are true stories. These are stories that actually happen. No matter what who says, these stories are true. Unless somebody can prove that these stories are not true?
They actually happen to the person or staff concerned.
Even the one at the lake club. It was posted for public viewing many years ago. So it not rumour, malicious or what ever you want to call it.
Please ask God to remove the scales from your eyes so that you may see what God wants you to see.; November 3, 2008 at 11:13 PM
Anonymous said...: Whoever thinks that this blog is lies, rumours etc, I dare somebody to go ask SP himself. Ask SP, see whether you get a reply.
Come on you guys, take the challenge; November 3, 2008 at 11:15 PM
New Beginning said...: Dont kid yourself.

You cant even get an appointment to see him!!!

It may be easier to make an appointment to see a Federal Minister than your own CC Senior Minister.; November 3, 2008 at 11:29 PM
Anonymous said...: Come on lah dreamer...

I am not Joseph also, I am just a 50 years old dreamer who dream dreams when church issues troubles me.

Most of the time however, it is beaches, sunshine, good food and people of all sizes running around in bikinis. Some are awful lookin but also in bikinis. Once a while a nice solid figure comes by and I goes into beta sleep pattern and would report for work late.

I wake up early on Sundary to prepare to go to church and sometimes maybe attend some spiritual classes.

What a life. I have been dreaming dreams like those of the Pharoah but when I wake up I forgets. Sometimes I wake up sweating in the middle of the night!

Is there a Joseph out there to help me?; November 3, 2008 at 11:55 PM
Dumbfounded said...: Guys, do you know why SP, SAP and BOD are not responding to you and even not defending themselves? What can they say? They have nothing to say in defence towards the people that question them. So perhaps you should stop expecting them to respond because they have NOTHING to say.; November 4, 2008 at 1:28 AM
Siew Chyuan said...: To "anonymous" at 8.21pm (on 1st Nov 08),

You had asked 4 questions (at 8.21pm on 1st Nov 2008) which I had answered the 1st 3 questions at 9.54pm on 1st Nov 2008. For the benefit of all bloggers/readers, I am attaching (after this comment) both your comment/questions & my reply to your 1st 3 questions so that they may be able to follow & do not have to page up or look for our comments/questions/answers.

As for your last question, I had stated that “I am afraid that I can't help you on this matter. Perhaps, God will raise someone out there to reveal the Truth to all of us Concerned Calvarites.”

Since I noted that nobody has answered your last question, I have just re-looked at the CIM audited a/cs (as copied by me) & shared with Bro. Hong Meng (HM). I still cannot answer your last question per se but I now realised that in an effort to fit all the figures onto the blog, HM had left out the 5 columns (for the years 2003 to 2007) & shown only the last column which is the total column.

Thus, I wish to clarify to all bloggers/readers that the RM 75,786 spent on USA – Global Pastors Network was actually incurred over 2 years (RM 33,428 in 2005 & RM 42,358 in 2006) & not in 1 year. Similarly, the figure of RM 37,174 for Korea – Church Growth Int. Conference was spent over 3 years (RM 10,654 in 2005, RM 16,870 in 2006 & RM 9,650 in 2007).

Other than the abovementioned 2 figures, I confirm that all the other figures were incurred in 1 year only, as follows:

From Designated Fund
2007 – RM 15,467 to RM 693,
2006 – RM 27,838 to RM 1,328,
2005 – RM 16,957 & RM 55,731,
2004 – RM 12,986 to RM 3,141, and
2003 – RM 1,263 to RM 387

From General Fund
2007 – RM 11,521, and
2006 – RM 3,330.

The total amount of RM 477,625 spent on Meetings & Conferences on a per year basis is as follows:

2003 – RM 48,509,
2004 – RM 111,259,
2005 – RM 116,988,
2006 – RM 124,968 and
2007 – RM 75,901.

So “anonymous at 8.21pm”, I believe that your last question is now redundant. Btw, as have been mentioned by most bloggers/readers, let’s leave SP’s children & grandchildren out of all this mess – OK?; November 4, 2008 at 3:00 AM
Goodbye said...: SAYONARA...GOOD BYE...SELAMAT BERJUMPA..ZAI JIEN..ZOI KIN..to Index finger; November 4, 2008 at 8:01 AM
Bionic Ears said...: Dear Index Finger,

I refer to your comment "I also hear people in church - strangers, my acquaintances, etc. - who also spread gossip and rumours."

To my simple mind, there are only two possibilities to explain the above:

1) You have super bionic ears to pick up sound waves (you know like the old TV series "Six Million Dollar Man")

2) You are an eavesdropper and busybody in church (you even eavesdrops stranger's conversation - shame on you).

I rest my case.; November 4, 2008 at 8:03 AM
Dreamer Too said...: Dear anonymous 50-year dreamer,

I can think of 2 possibilities:

a) You've been erating too much "tai thau choy"

b) mid-life crisis (very late I suppose)

Jokes aside, you need to pray harder for interpretation. Your dream is a bit "sinful".; November 4, 2008 at 8:10 AM
Not Busybody said...: Dear Index Finger,

Yeah, I agree with Bionic Ears. I tend to tend you're an eavesdropper and busybody as it can't be bionic ears (show only)

That leaves me with 2 other possibilities:

a) you are born with this trait of eavesdropping, and you acquire it

b) you are appointed by SP.

Which category are you in Index Finger?; November 4, 2008 at 8:26 AM
Quotable Quote said...: Dear Index Finger,

If I know your true identity, I will tell everybody, including strangers, to stay far far away from you.

Who knows, you may be eavesdropping on them too.

I really like your quote, which will definitely qualifies as the quote of the year which I will quote for the benefit of those who did not pick it up (btw, I'm lousy at eavesdropping but I'm sure good at identifying unforgettable quotes such as yours):

"I also hear people in church - strangers, my acquaintances, etc. - who also spread gossip and rumours."

Happy eavesdropping, Index Finger!; November 4, 2008 at 8:32 AM
Anti-Eavesdropping said...: Dear Index Finger,

To add on to Quotable Quote, if I know your true identity, I will surely pray for you so that you will stop eavesdropping.

It's bad and does nor reflect well on you as a Christian.; November 4, 2008 at 8:35 AM
Wikipedia said...: Dear Index Finger,

According to Wikipedia, EAVESDROPPING is the act of surreptitiously listening to a private conversation. This is commonly thought to be unethical and there is an old adage that eavesdroppers seldom hear anything good of themselves.

Well, Wikipedia says it's "unethical" and "eavesdroppers seldom hear anything good of themselves".

Think about it!; November 4, 2008 at 8:38 AM
Don't eavesdrop said...: Hi Index Finger,

My advice is that you immediately stop eavesdropping in church.

Like Wikipedia says, you will hear something bad about yourself.

Stop it, my fellow brethren.; November 4, 2008 at 8:46 AM
New Beginning said...: Dear TTG,

It amazes me that Index Finger mentioned that he sees and listens to what the TTG group is talking about every Sunday in church.

It amazes me as to why he or she is doing it. A busybody, or being instructed to do so or maybe its a church staff and trying to score points.

How did he or she hears what the TTG talks about? Here are three possibilitities:

1. He is one who pretends he is a TTG supporter and joins the conversations;

2. He deliberately walks past the TTG group more than once; or

3. He sits by the bench or pew besides the church and listens to the TTG conversation.

So, TTG, just look around next Sunday or so and see any common faces who lingers around you guys.; November 4, 2008 at 9:04 AM
Casting Down Imaginations said...: 50-year-old dreamer,

You are fantasizing in your dreams, clearly the devil's work, to distract you, and if you don't do something about it, it will lead you to sin against God or your spouse. An idle mind is the workshop of the devil!

The solution is found in 2 Corinthians 10:3-6: The Word of God has the power to 'take every thought captive to the obedience of Christ Jesus' - Christians have to learn to discipline our minds, so that even our thoughts will glorify God.

The Lord bless you as you exercise your spiritual authority in the Name of Jesus to discipline your mind, to the glory of God!; November 4, 2008 at 9:12 AM
Suspicious said...: Dear Anonymous 8:21 pm on 1/11,

This is from a reliable source...
A young Christian mother was with her toddler son in the CW class, last year in 2007, and she overheard this conversation:

Little Jaime Guneratnam was telling her friends in her class, "We had a holiday in the States." This statement, which seemed pretty innocent & normal, brought a strong reaction from big cousin, Alex Lee, "Shut up, Jaime! You are not supposed to tell anyone about this!"

Even the grandchildren of the Guneratnams are party to SP's misuse of church money - are they the last of the big spenders? - the whole family had just come back from a long holiday in the States! It's the lifestyle of the rich and famous!

Did it coincide with the spending of RM75,000/- of CIM funds, purportedly for a Conference? Check it out! Did it also coincide with Azalea Lee's admission to a US college for studies?; November 4, 2008 at 9:27 AM
joe said...: Wow... "beh tahan leh..." I don't know what to say about the comments to index finger. You see, we must not be a hypocrite; talk something else but do another. Walk the talk mah, less you'd be shot top bottom left right centre. All full of holes now. kah kah kah kah... "chin chin beh tahan lah"

As humble as you want people to listen and probably accept your opinion, likewise do the same mah, index finger. You said it rightly, my opinion is mine and I take responsibility for what I say. So, before you "condemn" others as being unchristianlike in their writings, please huh be prepared also for the "boh ar nah ho" (not so nice) comments from others to you.

God bless.; November 4, 2008 at 9:45 AM
Correction said...: To suspicious 9.27 am.

Please read Siew Chyuan's comment at 3 am wherein he clarified that the RM75,000 was actually the total - Quote

"HM had left out the 5 columns (for the years 2003 to 2007) & shown only the last column which is the total column.

Thus, I wish to clarify to all bloggers/readers that the RM 75,786 spent on USA – Global Pastors Network was actually incurred over 2 years (RM 33,428 in 2005 & RM 42,358 in 2006) & not in 1 year. Similarly, the figure of RM 37,174 for Korea – Church Growth Int. Conference was spent over 3 years (RM 10,654 in 2005, RM 16,870 in 2006 & RM 9,650 in 2007). "

Someone must have mentioned a holiday in US and children being children would also add "We too had a holiday in US". this may not be in 2007!

Please everyone - a lot of assumptions had been made like those for the RM75,000. Please stick to facts.; November 4, 2008 at 9:53 AM
Suspicious said...: Sorry for jumping to wrong conclusions.; November 4, 2008 at 10:06 AM
Revelation said...: Dear Correction,

We are not concerned about the "we too had a holiday in the US" bit. It's the "SHUT UP, JAMIE! YOU ARE NOT SUPPOSED TO TELL ANYONE ABOUT THIS!" that is so telling.

Out of the mouths of babes ...; November 4, 2008 at 10:09 AM
Siew Chyuan said...: To "Suspicious" at 9.27am,

In view of the very numerous comments since my 3am comment, you may have missed my comment which stated that "I wish to clarify to all bloggers/readers that the RM 75,786 spent on USA – Global Pastors Network was actually incurred over 2 years (RM 33,428 in 2005 & RM 42,358 in 2006) & not in 1 year."

Kindly checkout my 3am comment for the other details therein.

As regards your story from a "reliable" source, I am in no position to agree or disagree with your story but my closing comment at 3am was "as have been mentioned by most bloggers/readers, let’s leave SP’s children & grandchildren out of all this mess – OK?"; so I hope that you & all others will abide by this - OK again?; November 4, 2008 at 11:14 AM
Siew Chyuan said...: Oops, suspicious.

My apologies for not realising that "correction" had already pointed out at 9.53am; as I said at the EGM (in closing to the young lawyer) "you must excuse me fro being slow as age is catching up on me". Ha ! Ha ! Ha !

But I am still sharp at figures (Praise be to God!) & very YAHOO (Young At Heart Ooooo Ooooo!). Ha ! Ha ! Ha! Again. (Just joking lah, I think we all need a good laugh to destress).; November 4, 2008 at 11:21 AM
Index Finger said...: Sigh. Once again I'm forced to comment. Trying very hard not to, and also trying very hard to keep my cool in the face of the many accusations.

Must I repeat myself so often? For the last time, I am not a member of TTG. I do not speak to the TTG. I don't even go to the same church and services as the TTG. Likewise, I am not a member of SP's group. I do not hang around church eavesdropping on conversations for SP and co.

Where do I come off claiming that people tend to spread gossip and vilify the SP? Let me tell your my sources:

a) Friends & acquaintances who funnily enough think I'll be overjoyed to hear about such gossip
b) Forwarded emails (NOT 'official' TTG updates) written by third parties or aforesaid friends & acquaintances.
c) ACCIDENTALLY overhearing loudly spoken comments at church from people who fancy themselves to be 'helping' the TTG.
d) Some people commenting on this forum itself.

I hope this clears up any misunderstandings. By the way, I suppose I understand the angry reactions of people like 'bionic ears' when they believe (erroneously) that I am an eavesdropper, but I do have to wonder why I do not see a similar outpouring of angry words towards those who eavesdrop on, say, the Guneratnam kids like Jamie and Alex?

Anyway, Mr. Siew Chyuan is right in putting his foot down. The G family should rightly be off-limits to speculation, gossip, slander and rumour-mongering.

In strained patience,
Index Finger; November 4, 2008 at 1:56 PM
Longsuffering said...: Index finger,
There you go again...twisting words, thereby twisting the truth, just to justify yourself!

There IS a difference between 'over- heard' & eavesdropping, you know? In case you don't know, please check wikipedia for clarification!; November 4, 2008 at 2:19 PM
Simple Housewife said...: Dear Concerned Mom and others with like mind,

When I put down a reply to you yesterday, I was actually late for an appointment. Now as I re-read the comments which you put forth to my 3 brothers, I will attempt to just put in my 2 sen worth.

Your 1st accusation of the TTG, “I can't help but to feel could it because TTG was afraid of losing their popularity & supports if they rebuke certain wrong commenters/TT supports.”

Many of you think that the TTG is out to garner “popularity votes” or trying to recruit members to join our party. In fact, this is what I heard, “eavesdrop” you may call it, that “those people are recruiting members now” after I made an invitation for anyone to seek us out on Sundays in one of the earlier posts. Our view on this matter is, we do not need to be popular because we will not be nominated to stand for any election of any kind, in or out of church. You will not see our names on the nomination list for Deacons next year. None of us are on church payroll, so we do not need to stand out in our performance to ensure a better increment. In fact, no one has approached me, even though I gave out an open invitation for anyone to question me in private. So, no, we are certainly not some “popular” characters that you make us out to be – sadly for us.

The truth is, HERE, we present you what we know, you read and we hope you will pray and seek God for the truth and then form your own opinion. In fact, you don't even need to report to us what your final decision is - it is entirely between YOU & THE LORD.

Your 2nd accusation, “I can't help but to feel that whether the TTG is actually rejoicing over commenter's untruthful & unjust judgement they proclaim on SP.”

We are rejoicing but not because of what people wrote but what God has placed in our hearts, “The joy of the Lord…”. You see us each week happily talking after service because it is the joy that God has put in us when we meet our brothers & sisters in Christ. It actually saddens us to see the lack of concern or “tidak apa” attitude of our leaders, inspite of knowing that their good name and family members are being dragged in unnecessarily in this saga. The longer they “tidak apa” they more stories are going to crop up but I see no “concern” at all. They can still go about as though as nothing is happening – Now That is saddening really.

Your 3rd accusation, “Can't help but to feel TTG true intention to bring down SP at all cost by using people's emotion.”

Wow, you really think so highly of us. You really give us so much credit - to be able to use people’s emotions to bring SP down. To us actually, it is “Not by might, (just a few of us, some AMs cannot even vote) Not by power,(No constitution to back us. You witness at EGM, we can’t talk unless given permission to) BUT BY MY SPIRIT, says the Lord.” (Now this is our consolation) So if SP is “brought down”, it would be the Lord God Almighty’s doing, not “people’s emotion”.

So much for now, got to go fetch my kids. See ya and God bless.

Karen; November 4, 2008 at 3:27 PM
Controlstation said...: Hi Index finger

You said that you are not worshipping in Calvary Church. Then, you may not know enough to offer personal views on specific persons or development.

The fact you are in this blog means you do take some kinds of interest. Calvarites appreciate your good comments. But, please do refrain from specifc issues. It is not helpful to you or us.

The best you can do is to pray for us. We covet your prayer. God bless.; November 4, 2008 at 3:37 PM
Ah Beng No. 2 said...: Dear Index Finger,

I'm very surprised to note that you don't attend CC and yet claim to know so so much about our issues.

Instead of listening to third parties and forming your opinion on the so-called TTG, may I suggest you pray for us that God will help us resolve the problems we are facing.

This I believe is more edifying to the body of Christ than what you are doing now.

I mean no offence and I do hope you understand. Thanks and God bless.; November 4, 2008 at 4:26 PM
joe said...: Aiyah... that was what I said lor. Index finger 'accused' some of the bloggers here as being unchristianlike, malicious etc. Wasn't he assuming a lot of things? More so if he doesn't worship in CC, how on earth would he know what some bloggers wrote here are malicious. ah beng no.2 said it rightly, he was only listening from the third party. Allow me to add to that; he was only listening to one side of the story.

Index finger, if you want to share your opinion here, be open-minded yourself mah. Don't keep on asking the bloggers here to do this and that, don't do this and that BUT on the other hand you're doing the things you asked us not to do and not doing the things you asked us to do. Confusing leh... That's exactly how I feel lor after reading your comments. Walk the talk mah. Don't just talk talk only. Like people say, "talk is cheap" mah.

I agree with longsuffering, controlstation and ah beng no. 2, that you should just pray for us lor; more edifying that way. Otherwise, afterwards you kena shoot "vely chia lat" lor.

God bless.; November 4, 2008 at 4:58 PM
Same Birds said...: From what I read by Index Finger, TTG got competition or is it allies now. I have not seen any other Updates by third parties regarding this matter. So please do share with us, the other party's Update. Maybe, the other party(s) action is more feasible and more advanced as compared with TTG.

I think the BOD better do something fast or they have another group to deal with soon.

They say Birds of the same feather flock together. How come I don't get to ACCIDENTLY hear about SP's gossip story in church. I only get to read about it here but they tell us that it is true story, not gossip.; November 4, 2008 at 6:44 PM
Anti Hitler said...: To "index finger" at 1.56pm,

Your comment "I don't even go to the same church and services as the TTG" could have cause "longsufferring", controlstation", "ah beng no. 2" & "joe" to all conclude that you do not attend CC as they are probably aware that TTG members are not confined to a specific worship service but are in fact at all the worship services.

If they are right that you do not attend CC, then may I remind you that this blog is by Concerned Calvarites for Concerned Calvarites. So whilst we, Calvarites, appreciate that you are probably a concerned believer but you are not a Calvarite thus you would have no locus standi to comment on events at CC but you are most encourage to pray for CC.

I read somewhere that in a misunderstanding between believers, both sides will pray to the same god, our Lord Jesus, to help them. Though God is omnipotent, can He really answer affirmatively both their prayers?

The writer's answer was that God will always be on the side of Truth for our God is a God of Truth & Light.

Look at the Nazis under Hitler's reign when they were exterminating the Jews. There must have been Christian Germans who were praying to God to let them win World War II. God, being who He is, stood with the righteous Allies & not the unrighteous Axis.

So my trust in the saga at CC is not in man (for man will always fail us) but in God. Thus I will continue to uphold CC in prayer as I hold out that "in God we trust, all others (men, even men of God) will cause us to frust".; November 4, 2008 at 7:23 PM
Index Finger said...: In my second, third and fourth posts, my stand on the matter is quite clear. My third and fourth posts on this forum also tell you clearly whether I am a Calvarite (or not, as you believe).

BTW, if there are any TTG's who are attending the satellite churches (one of which I go to), I don't think I've seen them.

to same birds: Gossip usually consist of true stories - but the actual message, generally speaking, tends to be changed over time and with each retelling. As far as this website is concerned, the only stories I will listen to are official updates from the TTG, who at least have backed up their findings with hard data and evidence and are working for the betterment of the church.

This is patently unlike some other stories on this forum, which appear to me to have no real purpose other than as idle chatter or character assassination not limited to SP but his family and family name too. Even if true, if spoken in malice and with evil intent it is considered gossip.

to Karen: Perhaps concerned mom was just trying to get across the feelings she felt reading the blog. I feel the key words in her sentences are "can't help but..." Similarly, I too hold the TTG in high regard, but I 'cannot help but wonder' at the motives of the people on this forum demonising (sometimes literally!) the SP and those who are PERCEIVED to be his supporters.

Index Finger; November 4, 2008 at 8:39 PM
Index Finger said...: anti hitler: Thank you for not reacting in a harsh manner when you note a possible fault in my writing.

Yes, I agree totally with you. Your words "my trust in the saga at CC is not in man (for man will always fail us) but in God" are exactly what I meant when I said that I am neither an SP supporter nor a TTG supporter. Perhaps it would be better to label ourselves 'God Supporters'.

Index Finger; November 4, 2008 at 8:43 PM
Ah Beng No. 2 said...: Dear Index Finger,

I refer to you comment : "BTW, if there are any TTG's who are attending the satellite churches (one of which I go to), I don't think I've seen them."

I'm in the inner circle of a group of concerned Calvarites who called ourselves TTG but I still don't know who are the TTG's.

I really dunno as there's no membership roll, so how do you identify the TTG's. Do we wear TTG tags?

Strange fellow, seems to be in the know.; November 4, 2008 at 10:00 PM
Observer said...: Ah Beng No. 2, maybe his index finger is much longer than yours. Hi hi hi!; November 4, 2008 at 10:02 PM
Satellite TTG said...: Dear Index Finger,

Better be safe and not talk about CC issues in the satellites.

Who knows, one of TTG's may eavesdrop on you. Ja lat then!!!!; November 4, 2008 at 10:06 PM
pinkie finger said...: To the TTG members, try to talk softer next time u're in church and try not to hurdle in too big a group so it won't be tat eye catching. keep to 2 or 3 to a group (for where 2 or 3 are gathered in My Name, there am I in the midst of them) so tat ppl can't accuse u guys of gossiping or being malicious. after all, after church,everyone needs to fellowship with each other..not just TTG members...so better that you guys try to blend in the crowd to avoid being index fingered.; November 4, 2008 at 10:53 PM
joe said...: Hi index finger. I see you're still blogging here. Are you trying to 'fish' some info as to whom the TTG members are when you said, "BTW, if there are any TTG's who are attending the satellite churches (one of which I go to), I don't think I've seen them." ??? Very suspiciouslah. I have a suggestion, why not you wear a tag this Sunday when you go for service indicating that you are index finger. I'm very sure a TTG member may approach you.; November 5, 2008 at 12:14 AM
Anonymous said...: index finger, who ever you are it is evidence that your agenda is to protect the G family. your contradiction expose yourself. yes you many not be a G but you must be one of them that who defended them and hope to be found favour with this family.
one moment u say you don't come to CC then u say u attend the statelite. you say u overheard then you say u get from thirty party. you claims are not creditable.
Many had ask the TTG to prove themselves like our friend "why so long" who has no guts to even show himself even the TTG groups is willing to met him.
none of the SP supporter ever dare to reveal themselves but ask the TTG group to reveal themselves.
Many claim the non SP supporter are unchristian . we are here dealing with a bigger ethical issue.(taking money and spending the sacrifices of the church member money
Dare you to take the test of transparency to close the chapter of speculation. we accuse you this we accuse you that.
If SP and the BOD has no guts to take the transparency test you have no busines to comments on an unchristian behaviour.
non SP and BOD is acting like they being precuted in actual fact they are silent because they have no other answer to the half truth they being telling.

The TTG are blogging with a heavy heart.As much as they love God and the church i don't see any reason of a personal agenda to remove SP other then HIS BEHAVIOUR IS CONSISTENTLY NOT A PASTOR HEART.
the church is crying out for a pastor.; November 5, 2008 at 1:27 AM
call for prayer time said...: shall we all spend some time in prayer before we spent too much energy on 'not so meaningful' arguement, please. God bless; November 5, 2008 at 2:34 AM
I pray too said...: To "Call for prayer time",

Just in case you assume that those who blog here don't pray, I can assure you that I personally bring the issues of CC to God everyday for many months already, always seeking His divine intervention and that His will be done.

Yes, we should pray EARNESTLY and blog RESPONSIBLY. For that matter, let's pray for Index Finger too.; November 5, 2008 at 8:35 AM
Lie Detector said...: Index finger & other like-minded SP supporters who claim to be NEUTRAL,

In life, it is hard to remain neutral. In spiritual warfare, it is impossible to remain neutral...You are either FOR or AGAINST! In the words of the soon-to-be ex-President of the USA, "YOu are either with us or against us!" (referring to terrorists)

So, please stop lying & stop claiming to be neutral when you are actually & evidently a SP supporter. Your very words give you away....words like malicious allegations, gossip, slander, sound VERY FAMILIAR! OH yes, SK & BOD accused TTG with these same words some months ago from the pulpit!; November 5, 2008 at 12:17 PM
Index Finger said...: Sigh.

Well, if you'd just go back to my previous posts (especially my first, second and third posts) you'll find out all you need to know about my 'agendas' as you call them. One only need keep an open mind.

Just in case you don't, let me reiterate: I don't want to see unfounded allegations, gossip and slander. I want to see responsible blogging (such as what the TTG is doing), not baseless rumours. I'm perfectly satisfied that the accounts copied by the TTG do appear to show some sort of wrongdoing by SP.

anonymous 1:27AM: I said I don't go to the same CC/service as the TTG, because I go to a satellite. Indeed, I don't think I've eveer seen either HM, SC or Karen in my satellite. Please ensure the sources for your info is from my own posts, not the ones taken out of context by others.

BTW, I only consider very few people to be a 'genuine' TTG (me not among them) and the rest to be supporters.

i pray too: Thank you for your prayers. I know that I, a sinner, will definitely need them.

lie detector: You are absolutely right. I am FOR God. If SP is the one who is doing wrong, I will be AGAINST him. If (God forbid!) TTG is the ones who are doing wrong, then I will be AGAINST them. Get my point?

Index Finger (alas, stuck forevermore with an unfortunate moniker); November 5, 2008 at 2:04 PM
Uncle Wong said...: Dear all,

Let's close our file on Index Finger. He's quite harmless, so to say. Let's not get distracted.

Let's refocus on the issues at hand. And continue to seek God's divine intervention.

God bless.; November 5, 2008 at 2:48 PM
yes we need change and yes we can said...: today America have a black president. He say we need changes and say yes we can. yes we can.; November 5, 2008 at 4:01 PM
talking same thing many many times said...: index finger seems to be talking some sense now. TTG no membership ship lah. where got supporter n geninue member dont'n simply start something unfounded.
ya loh everyone here looking for the truth. if some thing not true prove it not true. you so clever u got better ideal. You go talk to SP then tell us what he tell you. If you can convince him then i say you very clever. i think you not that brave lah. You only clever here preach like u very smart man.
sorry i teksi man . i also give to church not like u give so much. but my money hard earn you know.

helo i give you money to give to ah kow you give to ah beng . now ah beng dont want give back. i ask you how you say he got lawyer say give already cannot take back.
now we angry say why he like this now you say we all very bad people.
i know i drive texsi i see many people not fair, come to church also same. can ask is pastor christian?
i don't understand. My Bible say cannot steal. sometimes i give wrong change to people also i feel bad.; November 5, 2008 at 4:21 PM
Zephaniah said...: TRUTH IN ACTION THROUGH ZEPHANIAH

Truth Zephaniah teaches
Growing in Godliness
----------------------
The sin of pride is most often revealed by the words that we speak. Language becomes unclean with repeated self will, or the profane use of God's name.

Action Zephaniah invites
Text 3:9-13
Purify your heart and your speech will be pure also.
allow God to purify your lips and language

(Steps to dynamic devotion)
The key to knowing God is to continually seek Him. The cheif danger in this quest is the temptation to be satisfied with past encounters so that no fresh pursuits are made. Complacency is the enemy of spiritual gowth.

Text 1:6,1:12, 3:5
Persevere in following the Lord, Do not turn back. Find your answer in God. Remain zealous. Refuse complacency. Seek God faithfully every day. Trust that the Lord behaves justly. Keep your appointmenst with the father.

( Steps to holiness )
Avoid letting attitudes and character be shaped by the worldliness that surrounds. We are citizens of another kingdom.

Text: 1:8 Reject anything foreign to God's kingdom rule in your life.

( Lessons for Leaders )
The wise leader accepts the Scripture's testimony about man and rejects the prevailing, humanistic doctrines that teaches man's intrinsic goodness. As unteachable attitude is the tip of the iceberg of ungodliness. This wisdom should influence one's self view, causing all of us to guard ourselves from insincerity and pride in any of its manisfestations.

Action Zephanish invites
--------------------------
Text 3:2. 3:3, 3:4
Leaders, understand that the clearest evidence that someone does not trust the Lord or seek Him diligently is rebellious, disobedient, and unteachable nature. Leaders avoid being among those who speak loudly, who promise great things, but produce nothing that lasts or bears fruit in the long run. Leaders avoid diligently any forms of arrogance or pride in your ministry. Do not profane the ministry by mishandling God word in any way. Never teach your own opinions as God's word.

I dedicate the above to 'index finger' and Senior Pastor and his wife--Petrina; November 5, 2008 at 7:35 PM
Lie Detector said...: Sorry, Uncle Wong, let me have one MORE go at index finger! She is so irritating! Definitely index finger is a she, & not a he..

Index Finger, SO TELL ME, are you on the side of TTG and CT, who are standing for and speaking out against corruption, lack of transparency, half-truths, spiritual abuse, mis-use of missions funds by SP, SAP & BOD, or not?

Don't just say, "I am on God's side," because all of us will say we are on God's side!

Make your stand NOW! Are you FOR or AGAINST TTG and CT's stand?

Don't give me all your long-winded, beating around the bush answers, please. I want an honest and straightforward answer from you, please?; November 6, 2008 at 2:38 PM
LIE DETECTOR said...: OOps, let me make a correction in my comment. Left out one important phrase:

"...are you on the side of TTG and CT, who are standing for TRUTH, TRANSPARENCY, GOOD CHURCH GOVERNANCE, CHRISTIAN STEWARDSHIP, and speaking out against..."; November 6, 2008 at 9:25 PM
Anonymous said...: What's the binkering ?
The guilty will face the wrath of God.
Like Moses, he was not able to go to the Promise Land.
Vengence is mine, thus sayeth the Lord.; November 7, 2008 at 12:18 PM
Anonymous said...: Let the person who has no sin cast
the first stone.; November 7, 2008 at 4:24 PM
Bible scholar said...: Dear anonymous,

Obviously you don't know Scripture well as you have quoted it out of context. Ask Pastor SK for help.; November 7, 2008 at 6:15 PM
Lie Detector said...: Yes, bible scholar,

That verse was definitely quoted out of context. This is the normal style of SP supporters....they lack substance with which to speak up for SP, SAP & BOD, so their only recourse is to point the accusing finger at TTG supporters & quote the Bible out of context to justify themselves. Never mind, la, they have chosen to remain in delusion, so we will let them be.; November 7, 2008 at 7:20 PM
Wrongly accused said...: Dear "Anonymous"

Assumimg you saw one of your closest friends stealing money from your CEO's drawer, do you close both eyes and pretend nothing has happened?

You did not want to report this to your CEO because you had stolen before in the past, and as a sinner "you should not cast the first stone".; November 7, 2008 at 10:10 PM
Wrongly taught by SP said...: Anonymous,

If every Christian thinks like you, crime will definitely abound. Think about it!; November 7, 2008 at 10:14 PM

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