Monday, June 18, 2012

Is Calvary’s Faith Promise Giving a Sham?

For many years, Senior Pastor Prince Guneratnam (PG) has boasted to the world that Calvary Church has given away millions of ringgit to Missions and Evangelism every year.

Twice a year on Faith Promise Sunday in January and July, when new 6-month pledges are solicited from the congregation, PG and the Missions Director will show video clips of the Missions Projects which the Church has supported in the previous 6 months. And as always is the case, PG will also proudly declare to the congregation that due to their overwhelming giving towards their faith promise pledges, there is a surplus over the Missions Budget and that surplus will be channeled to the Church Building Fund.

The members have constantly been led to believe that all their Faith Promise contributions are given away to support Bible schools, Christian organizations, missionaries and missions work throughout the world and only the surplus funds over the budget are kept by the Church for Calvary’s own building fund.

Before the Calvary saga erupted about 4 years ago with the exposure of financial mismanagement, unethical practices and abuse of power and position in the Church, Calvarites have never doubted PG and his Pastors and Deacons. Now, the members, having been wised up to PG’s true character are beginning to question the utilization of the Faith Promise funds collected from members.

Picking up on several requests from readers, CT decided to investigate this particular topic of discussion going on in the Blog and for this purpose, CT perused through the past years’ Church Annual Reports, Missions Fund Reports and the reports of the Extended Ministries of the Church.

At a glance, the Missions Fund Reports appeared to be in order. All the Faith Promise collections appeared to be properly disbursed and accounted for. It was only when CT started cross referencing and extracting various figures from all the various reports that CT discovered a shocking fact.

And the shocking fact is that from 2008 to 2012, from the total Faith Promise collection each year, less than 10% was given away to external parties. More than 90% of Faith Promise collections was kept internally to finance Calvary’s own ministries, staff payroll and the church building program, which is now, the Calvary Convention Centre (CCC).

For 2011, only
RM228,246 or 6.6% of the total Faith Promise collection of RM3.44 million was distributed to Bible schools and external Missions work.

19.3% were utilized to pay the church staff salaries and church outreach workers,
18.9% was utilized to support the church’s Extended Ministries like AIM, Communication Ministry, Prayer Tower, Calvaryland etc,
7.2% was transferred to Outreach Property Fund,
39.4% transferred to fund the CCC construction and the balance
8.5% retained in the Missions Fund.

Click on the image 1 to view the comparison between the official version and the real version of the utilization of the Faith Promise collections for the years 2008 to 2011.

Click on image 2 to view the Missions Fund’s Statement of Income and Expenditure.

It is fair to conclude that what is presented and declared to the congregation year after year, is nothing but pure misrepresentation of what actually happens to their sacrificial giving in Faith Promise. This act of misrepresentation and misleading the congregation by PG and his Pastors and Deacons is totally unacceptable and despicable.

On the subject of misrepresentation, CT also investigated the issue of the “real” staff costs of all the pastors and employees of Calvary Church. Most members do not realize that the amount of staff costs/stipends stated in the main Church accounts in the Annual Report does not cover the entire staff force of the Church. That amount stated represents the salaries of only the Pastors and some selected church staff. The rest of the church staff and all the outreach workers are paid from the Missions Fund with a handful of staff being paid from the Extended Ministries’ accounts.

This breaking up of staff costs and hiding under separate accounts or funds is again another issue of transparency.

The actual total staff costs of the Church come up to a mind-boggling figure of RM4.5 million for 2011. This represents about 54% of the total Income of the Church from tithes and offerings and donations/income received by the Extended Ministries. The contributions to the church building fund and faith promise are excluded in computing the percentage as both these collections are specific and meant for their respective purposes and are not deemed as income for church operational use.

Click on image 3 to view the breakdown of staff costs.



According to the MISSIONS MANUAL of Calvary Church, it states that,
The Missions Dept was then formed to look into the matter of the administration of missionary funds and the development of a strong missions programme to look into the sending out of missionaries, the accomplishing of greater nation-wide and worldwide expansion in missions and the attaining of greater efficiency in missionary matters in    general.


PURPOSE OF THE MISSIONS FUND

This fund seeks to provide full or partial financial support or sponsorship towards approved missions projects carried out locally or abroad. It also provides a reliable and responsible channel (or vehicle) for which designated offerings may be transmitted.

Has the Missions Department fulfilled its original purpose as stated in the Mission Manual?

Have the funds collected through the Faith Promise Programme been distributed in accordance to the stated Purpose of the Missions Fund?


With another Faith Promise Sunday coming up in July, let us hope that the congregation will be smart and seek God’s wisdom before they put their pen to the Pledge Card. Above all, let us hope that PG and his Pastors and Deacons will respect the intent and faith of the giver and release every ringgit collected through the Faith Promise program to fulfill the purposes of Missions and Evangelism for which the program was originally intended.
_____________________________________________________________  


                             Added on 22 June 2012




In response to queries from some readers concerning the legal status of Calvary Church as a registered body, we post below an audio clip explanation by lawyer Mr KK Wong during an EGM held on 15 August 2008.

227 comments:

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Anonymous said...

Me and my family felt that we had been mislead and felt being cheated for the past 25 years as the Faith Promise Fund was shown to have not been distributed in accordance to the stated Purpose of the Missions Fund ! I pledged faithfully and it was never allocated 100 % to Mission works ! Just woke up and realised I Got CONNED !

Anonymous said...

Money solicited by any church for a specifically declared purpose must be used for that specific purpose even if there is a 'surplus'. Otherwise they should be return to the donors or earmarked for future use for the same declared purpose. Not to do so is dishonouring the wishes of the donor and is unethical and tantamounts to deceiving. Are the church's accountability standards lower than that of the secular world.

Anonymous said...

The problem with the deception at CC is because rely on the gullibility of the sheep.At CC- missions is given an extended meaning-so that when the money is chanelled back to CC,usually the bigger portion,(the smaller portion is for "cuci mata")it is still interpreted as missions. This is how the Con Job has been going on for decades at CC-the leaders are aware of it- but just put on a straight face.
SP is not of ordinary cloth.He is a seasoned serpent when it comes touches on money matters.he has been milking the cows at CC for many years now, until the cow got stressed out.

Anonymous said...

Money solicited by any church for a specifically declared purpose must be used for that specific purpose even if there is a 'surplus' by Anonymous June 18, 2012 1:59 PM
........................................

Hey have you forgotten the statement from CC's pulpit "When you give us the money- you don't ask how we use it?"

Nice request from a church pulpit ah?Just give without asking questions! Nowadays all kinds of crap are coming out of CC's pulpit.

Anonymous said...

A well written article! A Shocking find, and involving so much money. This is big!

Suggest many copies of this article alone be made and distributed on car wind screens of cars parked around the car parking areas of CC so that people are made aware of it.

Better still, distribute it also to cars parked in car park areas of the many other churches in PJ/KL areas.

This certainly looks like a fantastic scam which must be exposed. Hope some newpapers will also pick this story up.

Let us all work together, to at least forward this article to people that we know. If things mention in this article isn't true then so be it. The onus is back to Calvary Church now.. but facts, numbers & figures cannot lie.


Posted by Anonymous to Calvary Today at June 18, 2012 3:41 PM

Anonymous said...

Money solicited by any church for a specifically declared purpose must be used for that specific purpose even if there is a 'surplus'.

........................

I support this!!


Posted by Anonymous to Calvary Today at June 18, 2012 3:43 PM

Anonymous said...

Dear CT,

Any updates on the TOTT?

I hope it is going on well and yield the appropriate intended result(s).

To the still "ever faithful" Calvarites,when will you wake up from your blind faith & loyalty to PG1 and PG2 & gangs???

God bless you all!

PLim


Posted by Anonymous to Calvary Today at June 18, 2012 3:52 PM

Anonymous said...

Hey, PG is a "Tan Sri" correct?

Does anyone here have any good connections with the MACC?!


Posted by Anonymous to Calvary Today at June 18, 2012 4:10 PM

Anonymous said...

Religion aside.., any wrong doings, fraud, misrepresentations or scams.. people go to jail for that!

Besides PG being the head, who's also the Missions Director of Calvary church?

Is a police report going to be made on this?


Posted by Anonymous to Calvary Today at June 18, 2012 5:18 PM

Anonymous said...

When the fountain head leader becomes wayward, everything begins to fall apart. It starts with the spiritual component of preaching and teaching, evangelism and missions and inevitably the improper use of church finances.

Posted by Anonymous to Calvary Today at June 18, 2012 6:47 PM

Anonymous said...

If you read carefully the following comment which was posted by Anonymous at 12:23pm on June 10, 2012, you will realised that PG have been secretly moving at least RM 200,000 per year from 2003 to 2007 (5 years) & this is camouflaged in the Missions A/c as "Missions & Evangelism":

"EYES HAVE SEEN IT, EARS HAVE HEARD IT; SO TOTT IS THE ONLY WAY AHEAD .......

In a lot of way, CC is like a mini Malaysia - for a long time I thought that we had a mini Mahathir at the pulpit (looks like him, sounds like him but not him), now it appears that the remaining Calvarites are like what Mahathier said about the UMNO members ..... mudah lupa.

"Eyes have seen it" - just to refresh your memory, remember the RM 1.9m which was stashed away "quietly & secretly" from CC's coffers into PG's PERSONAL ministry (CIM) over a 5 years period from 2002 to 2007 until God exposed it to 4 brave TTG members on 21st Jun 2008 right infront of 4 Deacons & PO.

"Ears have heard it" - were you there on 20th Jun 2009, the 2nd day of the now aka infamous 2-day AGM, when a brave TTG member asked why he can't find the RM 0.2m (which was part of the RM 1.9m) in the 2007 Mission A/cs? ER (CC's treasurer) answered that it was part of the RM 0.26m classified as Missions & Evangelism, to which the TTG brother answered "if that is the case, then only RM 60,000 or RM 5,000 per month ACTUALLY went to Missions & Evangelism, & we call ourselves a BIG church. A BIG Church?" Sad to say, I do not see that TTG brother in CC anymore.

"So TOTT is the ONLY way ahead ...." - that's why I have been TOTTing since then NOT that I don't support having a BIG church building BUT I DON"T support Lies, no Transparency & poor Governance in church. And we call ourselves (CC) a church? A Fountain-head Church, for that matter?

Fountain-head church for what? For spreading LIES from the pulpit? For NO TRANSPARENCY by the pastors & leaders? For POOR GOVERNANCE by the leadership & administration?

Administration? Yes, Administration! You there in CC's office, your "eyes have seen it" & your "ears have heard it" BUT yet you choose to be silent & part of the whole SHAM. Be careful what you say to HIM on Judgement Day when He asks you "I had placed you in CC's office for a purpose, what then did you do for me when there was a need to speak out against those false shepherds who were robbing Me in My House? Brothers & sisters, I think you need to go to Him & seek His Forgiveness & then repent by doing the right thing.

Sometimes in CC, we sing the hymn "were you there .....?". I think, Calvarites, we need to ask ourselves "were we there" when PG told lies over the pulpit? "Were we there" when PG nailed Christ to the cross "again" by telling LIES from the pulpit, again & again & again?

I can only hang down my head shamefully & look at the floor in silence for, yes, I was there; were you? From now onwards, I shall speak up, not for myself, BUT for the Lord. Brothers & sisters, we need to "Stand up for the Lord" & "Speak up for the Lord", for we, the remaining Calvarites, are Not some invisible & Dumb sheep BUT we are the Called. Amen! "

................. to be continued

Anonymous said...

...... Continuation to posting as regards the posting by Anonymous at 12:23pm on June 10, 2012:

........ After reading the "posting by Anonymous at 12:23pm on June 10, 2012", you will now realised that PG had quietly & secretly moved a total of RM 1,900,000 from the Missions A/c to his personal ministry (CIM) until it was revealed by God in mid 2008. Is this how a SP of a big church should behave? Big church? More like a BIG con-man.

Remember the earlier years when PG used to announce over the pulpit that there are many people soliciting for funds in the world BUT Calvarites should NOT give to them BUT should instead give to CC then CC will disburse to the needy ones.

Now we know that this is all BULLSHIT as even the RM 41,600 collected for the Indonesian Earthquake Victims in 2006 were kept in CIM's bank a/c until God exposed it in mid 2008. When questioned, PG used ER to answer that by the time they wanted to transfer the money, the other side didn't need it. Honestly, PG, who are you trying to kid. For the record the money was left as CIM until God forced the bank to close PG's CIM bank a/c.

Anonymous said...

It all comes down to definition. PG and the Missions Director can choose to define any activity as missions. So extended ministries including the planned music studio, Calvary Land,salary for staff in the Missions department, and whatever they want to finance from the missions giving. The deacons have no say in the definition. They just rubber stamp. They defined CCC as missions. PG's traveling is also missions. Missions giving including faith promise giving are not given for missions. Instead it is used to cover expenses which PG did not want to appear in the church accounts because PG's famous words, "what you give to missions you cannot question". This is what happens when we are not allowed to question, when we don't question. You thought you were giving to bring the Gospel to unreached people. Dream on. So little missions is done with the missions giving that they have to resurface our lone missionary to Sudan at every faith promise Sunday. Wise up. It is all a sham.

Anonymous said...

To further support a comment published at 7:40pm.

If you take a look at the AOG usa website it also facilites for people/organisations who want to donate money and designate the money to a specific missionary/work. We can see a list of missionary names on the AOG website when we type in say letter "A".

It was interesting to see:

Ministry ID: Description
600001-890967 MALAYSIA FIELD (AGWM)

Would it not be so easy for CC to 'donate' to 'overseas missions' such as the AOG organisation and designate the money to this particular account? I would not be surprised if this might also be one of PG's 'related ministries'??

So here we are... the money 'comes back' again. Shows it goes out from CC to an overseas missions but then ultimately goes into ahem's.. account? Really cool, possible 'money laundering' scheme all this can all become, and been going on for years!


Posted by Anonymous to Calvary Today at June 18, 2012 8:12 PM

Anonymous said...

When concerned members asked that the accounts of the extended ministries be incorporated in to the main account for the church, PG was dead set against it.

PTL! When put to the vote, the members, then, were wise enough to vote in favour of this motion

So, there you are. Since 2008, the audited accounts of the extended ministries HAD to be part of the main accounts.

Now with the fiddling of the accounts exposed, it is clear as daylight why PG was against this motion. I wonder what how the accounts were tweaked in the years prior to 2008.

As mentioned by Anonymous, June 18, 9:17pm, the definition and interpretation of missions is at the whims and fancies of PG and the Missions Director. Who is to question them? PG is on the warpath to remove all resistance. When any questions is raised, an AP will come to you, saying "Just want to know you. And give an explanation to you". Do not be fooled. The ulterior motive is to blacklist you. Then you will be axed citing "not in support of the leadership and/or church's vision' as a reason.

Oh, oh. The soap opera Dallas is coming back. JR Ewing could learn some tricks of manipulation of funds from PG and Missions Director. Put it here, then there and then take it out. To keep trace, it requires a painful scrutiny. When members become lost in the maze, sweep it to CCC.

Regarding the Indonesian disaster fund that was parked in PG's personal ministry earning interest that went into PG's account, at that meeting, I almost fell out of my seat when the treasurer said "that the fund was closed and did not who to give to". What a shame coming from an accountant whom is supposedly on an overseas posting! It's okay - PG and the leaders in CC regard members as Standard Six kids.

A Mater of Time said...

BRAVO CT for this well investigated piece!

it is beyond any shadow of doubt, it's Manipulation all the way by PG,
the Mastermind.

ALL of his COVER-UPs are slowly but surely exposed one by one! In effect he has to-date misused the Church's multi-millions in his 40years of tenure. No wonder, he will never ever leave CC= this pile of CASH, which he uses however he wishes or decree!!!

Anonymous said...

Is there going to be a police report now?!?

What else do we need?

IF this blog is just to make people become aware, and to help them make a decision to leave or to no longer to support CC.. ~ still, I have the feeling that not enough people read all these important things being put out.

A more concrete and a more structured step/proceeding must now begin. Any lawyers out there who would like to support for the sake of justice? ~ kindly chip in. Let those who are involved and any of their related associates be put behind bars.

Maybe Calvary Today can let her readers know what's coming next or the next step of action?

Less talking now about religion, God's laws or 'judgement day' etc please.. sure, all that can come. This is a now serious criminal breach of trust case involving millions of ringgit being siphoned out by evil people calling themselves "leaders of a big church organization".

Otherwise, this entire blog is seriously just a waste of time!

Posted in CT on June 19, 2012 12:15 AM

Anonymous said...

Its defined as Money Laundering,this concealing of the money trail at CC-and I suspect many other AOG churches are involved.That may explain why the AOG Rev's are strangely quiet,and are reluctant to break their silence- maybe because they have a hand in the cookie jar too.This whole thing smells of AOG Crap because thats what it is.We are living in the days of Eli-where his sons demanded roasted meat,from those coming to worship.Its no more a house of worship- its a place for these AOG Rev's to flex their muscles and deceive the sheep.Like that AOG Salesman.Pathetic and shameful indeed!!!I advise the remnant at CC to shake off the dust from their feet, go home to pray for guidance from the Great Shephard. He still speaks."My sheep hear My voice"

Anonymous said...

Remember the earlier years when PG used to announce over the pulpit that there are many people soliciting for funds in the world BUT Calvarites should NOT give to them BUT should instead give to CC then CC will disburse to the needy ones.
............................................
HE FORGOT TO MENTION THAT THE NEEDY AND THE GREEDY ONES WERE HIMSELF AND FAMILY MEMBERS.EVEN THE $$$ ALLOCATED FOR TSUNAMI VICTIMS DID NOT MAKE IT THERE.INSTEAD THE JELLY REV. MADE A STATEMENT-"THEY DONT NEED IT ANYMORE"AND HOW DID HE KNOW THAT?? MORE AOG CRAP FRO SP. SO WHAT HAPPENED TO THE MONEY? OPPS!!!WE FORGOT-THE SHEEP ARE NOT SUPPOSED TO ASK! OUR APOLOGIES.

SP AND GANG ARE A BUNCH OF CROOKS.

Anonymous said...

AOG General Council. Do you condone such practices? Maybe this is standard operating procedure among AOG churches. Don't give me bullshit that CC is an independent church and you can't do anything. You are all responsible for this abuse to continue. Yes I know. You don't respond to blogs. You are waiting for someone to write in officially before you can even look at it. Jesus did not wait for official complaint before He cast the money changers from the temple. Is it self preservation or lack of courage?

Anonymous said...

In support of Annoy.June l9, 12:15am.."Is there going to be a police report?!?". True, with all the expose of their corruption and if nothing is done against them, its a waste of time commenting on this blog. Perhaps form a group to report them to relevant authorities to investigate them. Gather strong back up facts & evidences to prove their corrupt practices. Obviously, these religious frauds will try to hide themselves by claiming as religious organisations they are free from any governmental control. Still bring them to the court and see; at least these scroundels will be exposed and and help to bring more awareness to the ignorant remaining members to TOTT which will further weaken their financial ability.

Anonymous said...

A nation is only as good as its leaders! Likewise for any church! If the pastor is corrupt, the church will also become very carnal, as it appears to be happening now! One might ask, who is the head of this church.. Christ or Satan?

Anonymous said...

Excellent job Calvary Today for that article.

I log on this website not to get my ears tickled. but to hopefully read what actions have been further taken to put pressure on the CC Board and members to act. I also hope this article also reaches and touches the hearts of those VIPs supporting Tan Sri PG.

I think we all here just want justice and accountability to be promptly put in place in respect of CC. Perhaps it can never happen if the present leadership is still in power. If that is the case, may I also suggest that this church be forced to be closed down and boycotted.

Some comments posted here suggest that a police report be made. I am sure Calvary Today is gathering ammo and facts. But please do it quickly and I support for further action to be taken now.

It's disgusting to read what CC have been doing (or rather also not been doing..) regarding missions as what they have trumpeted every time during their 'Faith Promise' drive.

If there's anything which readers here can do further or to assist, please let us all know.


Posted by Anonymous to Calvary Today at June 19, 2012 3:04 PM

Anonymous said...

Can we see a list of all PG's 'related ministries' here please?

It's incredible to realize that when CC 'donates' or 'help' fund some of these ministries.., the money of CC is also laundered off that way.

A comment was made above, giving details of an account code belonging to 'Malaysia' in the AOG website. Any further information on who operates that account?

I am a CEO of a fairly large company. Sometimes I charge my expenses to my other subsidiaries companies. I bet it would also not be a problem for PG or any of his 'family' members to be doing the same..? The model that CC has built up over the years if left un-checked is totally an open money vault door for anyone who is in charge. It certainly looks and sounds like a fantastic ‘family business’ type model to me.

But, money from CC is people's money given for the purpose of the furtherance of God's kingdom. You must be careful not to touch that, and must always keep good account of it.

I agree with one comment made, that this is a CBT case if that would happen.

So, where do we go from here?

Posted by Anonymous to Calvary Today at June 19, 2012 5:25 PM

Anonymous said...

Two legal issues here need to be clarified before CBT can be highlighted !

Is Calvary church registered or exempted under the Societies Act or registered under the Company Commission ?

Anonymous said...

My two cents worth..Firstly, it is clearly a criminal case of CBT and Secondly, existing and former members could take a class action suit against Calvary Church & PG to refund the monies given to CC. Any good lawyer or Queen Counsels care to comment.

Anonymous said...

Faith Promise is not biblical.

Anonymous said...

I agree with the latest bloggers. there must be an end to the pilfering and evil going on in CC. What can be done to expedite this?! Throw the SP and offending leaders out now; get a court order to close the church down and do a full criminal investigation on the embezzlement of church funds; punish the thieves with the full extent of the law, etc. BOYCOTT THE CHURCH BY PICKETING IT! Who are the willing members ready to go this step and carry big signs to turn people away from this den of thieves?! ACT FOLKS AND STOP MOUTHING OFF!!! PUT ACTIONS TO YOUR WORDS! DO SOMETHING OR SHUT UP, FOR GOD'S SAKE!!!

Anonymous said...

It is a CBT only if members are not aware of where the money is going when they give. In this case members are aware as the budget/commitment (where the money is being applied) is shared/announced upfront. CBT? Don't think so.

Anonymous said...

Referring to to : ACT FOLKS AND STOP MOUTHING OFF!!! PUT ACTIONS TO YOUR WORDS! DO SOMETHING OR SHUT UP, FOR GOD'S SAKE!!!

What's your problem with people talking? Are you like PG who do not allow people to voice their opinion? IF you don't like what you read, then stop reading. If you feel convicted then why not you lead the way. That's what the TTG group did when they started. They did not force people to do things. They did it themselves according to their convictions.

I think you want people to "SHUT UP" so that this blog cannot reveal any more of PG's dark secrets.

Anonymous said...

It is a CBT only if members are not aware of where the money is going when they give.In this case members are aware as the budget/commitment (where the money is being applied)is shared/announced upfront.CBT? Don't think so.

By Anonymous June 20, 2012 8:48 AM
..................................................
Comment on the above
Dearest Ostrich- when SP quietly siphoned off CC's $$$ over the years and chanelled it into his personal CIM,which until today he is evading this issue & refuses to explain to the sheep-how do you describe this? Did he "share" this peice of info upfront? You said "members are aware"- are you one of those? In law that would make you an accomplice- aiding and abetting a Criminal Act.
You were aware?- but just chose to keep silent? That is tacit approval-and you are one of the participants in the crime.

TSUNAMAI &&&-a large chunk of the money never reached Sumatra.SK confirmed it from the pulpit by saying "They don't need it anymore" So where did the $$$ ACTUALLY go? Did they announce the money matters "upfront" or did they just"announce" it after some sheep started probing?

Its too late in the day to justify SP's actions.There is enough evidence by deed and acts to build a case for CBT.There is hanky panky going on in CC.

Condider the following- When Pam disappeared without any fanfare-was this announced upfront?
When Rev Jerry Chow disappeared overnight- was this announced upfront?
When Dr'Lum was axed- was this announced upfront?

NICE TRY.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous June 20, 8:48AM
You could be right that it's not clearly CBT. But using the money for other purposes without the explicit agreement or approval of each specific individual donor smells of abuse, unethical and dishonest exercise of "authority". In fact you could say, it's cheating the donor, like a dishonouring of an original agreement or breaching of contract. You cannot presume that every donor who gave the money for a specific purpose agrees to diverting his money for other purposes. His specific individual agreement is required, not the approval of a board or church members meeting .

Anonymous said...

CC is an independent church.
But that doesn't mean that we cannot lodge a police report for CBT by the leaders there.
I support the call for some kind of action to be taken!
If nothing further and just blogging is done, even the CC leaders know that this Calvary Today blog has got no teeth and will eventually just die off naturally. I don't want to post anymore comments. Facts are already all here. We are all fed up.

Everything is now up to the webmaster and team to take the next step of action.


Posted by Anonymous to Calvary Today at June 19, 2012 8:06 PM

Anonymous said...

If nothing further and just blogging is done, even the CC leaders know that this Calvary Today blog has got no teeth and will eventually just die off naturally
............................................
A RESPONE TO BLOGER ABLVE
You are badly mistaken- this blog has got strong teeth.Do you know how many AOG Rev's went into "Retreat Mode" when this blog emerged? Previously they were strutting about the earth with an air of superiority about them.Today,I dare say that much of that air has evaporated.As one AOG Rev. put it-"I just pray and hope that the bloggers will just close down that blog and move on.Maybe some of the nasty things written are true- but exposing them does not edify!~!Excuse me? True??

This blog will not die a natural death but will be a pillar of light in a smoky atmosphere. I suspect the blog will continue long after the CC episode dies off as a reminder of what CC went through. God Bless You all.

Anonymous said...

"Two legal issues here need to be clarified before CBT can be highlighted !
Is Calvary church " Registered or Exempted from Registration " under the Societies Act or Registered under the Company Commission Act ? June 19, 2012 9:37 PM "

Can someone clarify this so that criminal procedures can be followed through !

Anonymous said...

So after reading all these things.. that donations collected for the Tsunami victims was not given out after all, collections made for a specific purpose like faith promise is not honoured for the specific intentions that it was collected for, the main pastor and leadership all not giving a good account of the church's money matters, many other significant & questionable possibly also spook ministries/accounts in which prodigal transfer of funds have been made.. all made secrectly and deceptively for the main purpose of lining the main pastor and family's pockets.., and people still go to this Calvary Church.

Why?

Is your christian god not also present in the many other churches in that town/city??

Posted by Anonymous to Calvary Today at June 20, 2012 5:26 PM

Anonymous said...

What an in depth research!

Seriously, why don't you guys simply start your own church? That way, it wouldn't kill you all by wasting your precious time and effort, and waste away your spiritual life bad mouthing others?!

It would be more edifying to start one yourself and run it and proof to everyone that an ex-Calvarite can put things straight and do the right thing. Do it. Prove it.

If you are a good shepherd, the sheep will follow.

Posted by Anonymous to Calvary Today at June 21, 2012 10:04 AM

Anonymous said...

To Anony June 21, 1.00pm : I do not think its a waste of time to continue exposing the spiritual misdeeds of these pastors so that more will come to their sense and not been deceived by them. This is not bad mouthing as their spiritual sins is an undenying fact. Did you not read from your Bible how the Lord rebuked and exposed the Pharisees & Scribes. Jesus stood up to fight for the righteousness of His Father by exposing them. Do you say the Lord is bad mouthing them?

What have you done for the Lord to see His righteousness be established for the church which is the Body of Christ. What have you proved yourself? Anyway nobody is stopping you if you want to follow PG and his pastors and do whatever they tell you to and give whatever they ask of you if you so believed them. At the end of the day, you & each of everyone will have to answer God for the things we do.

Jesus Christ had asked Peter 3 times. Do you love Me? Watch my sheep. Do you love Me? Tend my sheep. Do you love Me? Feed my sheep. The way the Lord asked Peter 3 times, He must be very serious & concern how the leaders of His church as shepherds love & watch over the flock, God's children. Has PG and his pastors fullfilled this commitment the Lord had asked of them?? NO, they have not, they have failed as they have commited spiritual abuse on their flock. What would you think Jesus had to say?

Anonymous said...

For a God fearing pastor, to sack one member requires serious prayer and righteous deliberation because as a pastor he is accountable to God, not something to be treated lightly and done casually or hastily. To be able to sack 40 members must mean the pastor is super righteous { and powerful} and prepared to stand accountable to God, and I have never heard of this happening in Malysia. But to sack 400 members is unbelievable. Must be only in AOG. Shamefully amazing. Without doubt it will remain a record forever in Malaysian church history and is an AOG.

Anonymous said...

Calling all Calvary Church people.
If you are shocked and horrified at what PG is doing with your faith promise and missions giving print out a copy of this posting. Get your Calvary Church friends together and petition the board of deacons to clear up this mess and cc your petition to the AOG General Council.

Calling all ex-Calvary Church people.
If you have ever given to faith promise you can also write to the AOG General Council to protest that you had been deceived into giving.

Calling Calvary Church Deacons.
If you did not know that this was going on, get the board to set up a special audit committee to verify if the claims in this posting are true or not.

Calling all Christians attending AOG churches.
If you are shocked and horrified at what is happening in CC print out a copy of this posting. Get your AOG friends together and sign a petition to the AOG General Council demanding that they do something to restore the good name of the AOG.

Calling all righteous AOG pastors.
If you are shocked and horrified by what you read in the posting write to the AOG General Council and demand that they do something to prevent such abuses from happening.

By the mercy and grace of God maybe something good will come out of this after all.

Anonymous said...

I think I read in the earlier postings that Calvary Church is registered under the Trustee Act under the AOG Malaysia umbrella.

It is not registered as a Society or Sdn Bhd.

Please verify with the 7 Plaintiffs if you meet any of them.


Posted by Anonymous to Calvary Today at June 21, 2012 6:33 PM

Anonymous said...

Any Idea this " Trustee Act " fall under which Ministry jurisdiction ? Is AOG Malaysia registered under the Trustee Act as well ? Must prove its legal entity individually as a religious organisation for the purpose of initiating Criminal proceedings !

Anonymous said...

As a non AOG, I still shake my head whenever someone mentions about the sacking of 400 members in CC. Unheard of,unbelievable! In an AOG? Aiyoh, so MALU!

AIM said...

$$$$$$$$ to bible school ???????

$$$$$$$$ to AIM
$$$$$$$$ to Home school

And the above are part of Calvary Church.

Anonymous said...

A millionaire pastor? How can a pastor be so rich? Why he become rich? Where he got such money?
PG had manipulate the church and its finance for his own benefit. He has no interest in ministry from the beginning, but only want money, power, fame and worldly pleasure. He chase worldly title one after another and much church money spent in vain.
Faith promise does not bless the needy, but instead used for PG himself to make him rich. So many evidents.
Do anyone know what Pam G is doing now, when she is no longer in CC? Could it be that she went to US for their property investment? Where they get so much money to invest so many properties, that she has to pay full attention there? Property market is hot in US now.
Why CCC despite so much money, could not be built? Are all the money claimed to be used for CCC, actually used for the construction? Why Jim G has to be the project director? Why choose a no experience person (but someone of same blood with PG) to manage the project? Is it not wise to hire a qualified person to do the job? Why Jim G? Is there anything to hide? Could it be that the money claimed for CCC somehow go from Jim G to Pam G, from Malaysia to USA?
If PG concern about the project CCC, he would hire someone qualified, doesn't he?
There are so much to hide for PG? And the dumb followers simply feed these leeches.

Anonymous said...

What happened in Calvary Church is simply one word GREED. When you have so much money coming in from members as offerings & tithes,etc, etc and especially when these leaders are in total control,very soon greed will slowly crept into their hearts and they will take advantage with these big funds for their personal gains and a rich comfortable living.

Imagine SK had the cheek to say that Tsunami funds for Sumatra is no more needed by those people. The money should have been sent to them immediately why wait & hold. The money donated by members belonged to the members and if not used should be return to them. They have no right to keep the money for themselves to use. This is STEALING. Isn't this GREED. These leaders simply have no morals in them at all & they called themselves "pastors" of a church. Not one of them is worthy to be called a servant of God, including those lady pastors.

Anonymous said...

What an in depth research!

Seriously, why don't you guys simply start your own church? That way, it wouldn't kill you all by wasting your precious time and effort, and waste away your spiritual life bad mouthing others?!
................................................

THE ABOVE CYNICISM IS UNCALLED FOR.I AM SURPRISED THE EDITORS STILL PRINTED IT!!YOU DONT LIKE THE PRESENT GOVERMENT? SO WHY DONT YOU START YOUR OWN GOVERMENT??-

Anonymous said...

What an in depth research!

Seriously, why don't you guys simply start your own church? That way,it wouldn't kill you all by wasting your precious time and effort, and waste away your spiritual life bad mouthing others?!
................................................
The bloggers here are all expressing their own experiences and are not intended to badmouth anyone.Some years back Our senior Rev. was caught in a sex scandal with a lady and many members,both old and young left the church after the sordid affair.Families with teenage daughters quickly left saying that they did not feel safe in the church.Their children's welfare come first.That one incident caused so much pain for many Christians. My wife wrote some comments here about that episode- do you describe that as badmouthing?We were merely narrating our experiences.Its only badmouthing if you accuse anyone without any basis.What is going on at CC is based on facts-not fabrications. Or do you dispute that 400 were really axed and someone made up that story?Or do you disagree and say that all the tsunami money was used for its designated purpose?(Ask SK- he will tell you)$$$$$ was transferred from CC to CIM-is that merely a story made up? Mind you-its members contributions and a hefty sum indeed.The bloggers here are asking for accountability and transparency- in my opinion that is not badmouthing.

Maybe you should do some research on your own and find out why the bloggers came here with their experiences.Do you know why this blog saw the light of day? Come on- do some research.

God Bless Your Weekend!!

Anonymous said...

Is PG's personal ministry CIM recognised by AOG of Malaysia? In one of the AOG website pages, it was written that he is the founder and president of Calvary International Ministries.

The money for the tsunami disaster fund was collected by CC. What is surprising is that even though CC has its own mission department for many years, this money was passed to CIM for onward transmission to Indonesia. So CIM under PG will get all the credit. Or is there a sinister reason.

Members were in the dark about this until it was exposed in the EGM chaired by Guynes who received US10,000 for chairing the meeting.

At this meeting the treasurer ER when queried why the money was parked in CIM, gave a really childish/stupid excuse that Indonesia does not want it anymore!

Money collected by CC for a specific purpose but quietly parked in CIM. This is a classic example on the lack of transparency when handling members money and then quietly moved in a covet manner with none the wiser.

Is there any deacon who can stand up proudly and say that the board of deacons had full knowledge that US10k will bw given to Guynes to chair the EGM? Again a covetous move by PG.

One more. When PG was queired why he flew business class to India, his reply was "you want me to cycle there". Instead of an explanation, he is being sarcastic! A clear sign of his arrogance where members are treated like children.

Anonymous said...

Some Christians are like the three monkeys. See no evil, hear no evil and speak no evil. They think this makes them more holy. They are failing the Lord to bring righteousness to the land.

CALVARY TODAY said...

In response to queries from some readers concerning the legal status of Calvary Church as a registered body, we have posted an audio clip explanation by lawyer Mr KK Wong during an EGM held on 15 August 2008.

Please go back to the main post and listen to the recording.

ANOTHER SMALL FRY said...

Thanks to this blog and those involved for doing the research on the Faith Promise at CC and also exposing the whole matter. Besides FP this blog has also exposed many other things that are going on in CC and the AOG.

Because of this blog many have become wiser and enlightened. I believe many others too. As to those who know what’s happening but choose to follow blindly, we can only pray that they become wiser one day.

I was once like many other sheep in AOG churches who believe the AOG system was the best among the pentecostal churches. Being fed doctrines after doctrines from the pulpit I even thought the other denominations were rather less spiritual and their worship rather quiet; no live band, speaking in tongues etc.

Even in those old days the AOG had church planting/building programs like the minuteman. I was so proud to be part of it, even thinking ‘Wow, AOG is the fastest growing denomination. Surely one day it will overtake the others.’

Come to think of it, those days nobody in the church I attended ever ask how the money collected was used. We just give and give. Even when I left the church to go outstation becos of work commitment, I felt so proud when the church and its senior pastor kept contact with me.

However, things change when my work brought me back to KL and I attended CC. I got quite a rude awakening when I told my hometown church senior pastor I had returned and joined CC. Till today, I still remember clearly what the senior pastor said “Why you join CC the rich men church. You should come back to this church and pay your tithes, contributions etc here. CC is rich they don’t need your $$$. We here small, we need……”

Needless to say, no more contact from him or any of the church members after that. So what was the reason for keeping in touch previously? I like to believe it was genuine brotherly and Christian love.

The last I heard was this particular senior pastor resigned and become the director/CEO? of a social work that takes in underprivileged children. Well and good. But when this particular social work was started as a social work under the church when he was the senior pastor and many (church members and the public) contributed to buy the land and construct the building thinking it was part of the church when in reality it was not, then something is not quite right.

Today this particular social work is no longer considered part of the church.

I contacted some of the pioneer members of the church to find out what actually happened. Nobody seem to know. Many don’t even bother. I told them that if he (the senior pastor who resigned) wants to head a social work , he should start one on his own, not take away the one complete with land and buildings fully paid up that was connected with the church.

It seem that the senior pastor started it as his personal ministry when he was with the church. Of course many contributed thinking it was the church social commitment. And when he left the church, the social work becomes his. So clever.

Thinking of this social work, sometimes I wonder who really has the real say over all the assets of CC?

Yes, the next six months Faith Promise is just around the corner.

Let us be wise

ANOTHER SMALL FRY

Anonymous said...

(1)So Calvary Church was and still remained as an unincorporated body !
(2)The ACTION by Failure to get "Themselves" registered under the Societies Act is already an offence in itself!
(3)Will the Two BANKS withdraw the 2 Bank LOANS if EVER they are AWARE about the MISSING "TRUST Corporation Certificate" renewal yearly with an annual Fee purportedly issued by the Home Affairs Minister ?
(4)It was like Driving A Car without a VALID Driving Licence since 1966 ?
(5)The Societies Act under the Home Affairs Ministry is enforced by the Police and they can RAID Calvary Church any time ! Evidences showed that "Calvary Church" had and have consciously committed an Offence under the Societies Act ever since its Inception in 1966 !
(6)The Board of Deacon, Church Elders responsible for RUNNING the affairs of CC are directly LIABLE in the First degree for any Offences under the Societies Act. Pastoral & Administrative support staffs being employees are Vicariously LIABLE as well to a material degree! Will PG use his secular connection to obtain a "Trust Corporation Certificate" within 24 hours to save "themselves" from PROSECUTION individually !
(7)LEGALLY, "Calvary Church" is a SITTING DUCK!
If someone, being a member of the public, were to File a Formal Complaint in Writing and you will get a RAID with a Search Warrant issued to the Office of the Registrar of Societies !
(8)So Who want to throw the first stone !

Deuteronomy 8 : 18 - 20 .

Anonymous said...

I take it that most of those commenting here are not worshipping at CC. This is evidenced by the nature and substance of comments made. The current FP article is indeed relevant but perhaps not in the context of "CBT/Police Reports/Raids/etc...". If there were indeed grounds, these would have happended long time ago. The relevance of the FP article is for those making FP commitment to decide whether they would like their contribution to support the internal activities/programmes of CC or like the name implies (Missions), to give to God's work in Missions. If the latter, then go and see what God is doing and give directly!

Anonymous said...

(6)The Board of Deacon, Church Elders responsible for RUNNING the affairs of CC are directly LIABLE in the First degree for any Offences under the Societies Act. Pastoral & Administrative support staffs being employees are Vicariously LIABLE as well to a material degree! Will PG use his secular connection to obtain a "Trust Corporation Certificate" within 24 hours to save "themselves" from PROSECUTION individually !
.....................................
comment on the above

WHAT A LOAD OF NONSENSE!GET A HOLD OF YOURSELF MAN/WOMAN!!! "...vicariously liable to a material degree..??" There is no such thing as the above in any law practice.

Lawyer

Anonymous said...

In this case if the authorities take action against CC, nobody can cry foul play because you put yourself above the law by not registering yourself. We neglected to give to Ceasar what is his, in this case, failing to abide in the regulations and laws pertaining to societies and organisation. This is a serious matter as all things done and money collected will be deemed illegal by Caesar. Someone in CC better get this remedied quickly but then again can it be back dated to 1966.

Anonymous said...

...If there were indeed grounds, these would have happened long time ago.."

Well, that's because nobody raised this matter up or made a report. Now who dares to cast the first stone.

Anonymous said...

Who are the "actual named persons" forming the Board of Trustee for the "Unincorporated Body" called "Calvary Church" which is a Society within the meaning of Section 2 of the Societies Act 1966 ?

Worshipping since 1961 in a Society comprising an " association of seven or more persons whatever its nature or object, whether temporary or permanent" is quite SHOCKING !

If the Board of Trustee for the "Unincorporated Body" called "Calvary Church" failed or "REFUSED" to register themselves under the TRUSTEES (INCORPORATION) ACT 1952, then this "Unincorporated Body" called "Calvary Church" will fall within the meaning of Section 2 of the Societies Act 1966!

The Legal Issue now is whether this "Unincorporated Body" called "Calvary Church" forms a part and parcel of The Assemblies of God of Malaysia (AOG Malaysia) which is a Registered Trustees under the Trustee (Incorpoation) Act 1952 ?

Take note that "the AOG Malaysia is a co-operative fellowship based upon mutual agreement and voluntarily entered into by its membership!"

Membership of AOG Malaysia " MEANS" ministers who shall be in possession of a Valid certificate of fellowship and have been granted a Certificate of Affiliation !

The Ministers and members of local assemblies are legally members of AOG Malaysia by way of a "Certificate of Affiliation" ! Only Humans can be members !

CIM did not have a certificate of affiliation, hence the bank closed its Current account ! PG hold minister membership BUT his CIM is a private "CLUB" within the meaning of Section 2 of the Societies Act 1966! Any " ALLEGED " Offences can be probed, no time bar !

The Board of Trustee are not members of AOG Malaysia as disclosed by Article 6 of AOG Malaysia Constitution and by-laws !

Look like all the "Unincorporated Body" referred to as AOG churches or Pentecostal churches or "sovereign church" as defined by AOG Malaysia throughout Malaysia are actually operating as "SOCIETY" within the meaning of Section 2 of the Societies Act 1966!

PG's Shadow said...

CC uses 54 % of its "INCOME" i.e. OFFERINGS in all forms from the members who gave sacrificially, for their own salaries. ( take note it does not even include everybody on payroll, as some *other Ministries payout separately) Should this *portion be added, the % will easily exceed 60%!!!

Even companies in the secular world that perform well, salary will only account for 20% or Max 25%. Whereas CC uses more than 2/3 of the Offering given by the congregation on themselves, and less than 1/3 for God's work.

CC is a CHURCH-- whose sole purpose is to advance God's Kingdom on earth. Not to enrich the pastors. Whereas, PG takes care of his & family interest FIRST and foremost!

What more evidence does anyone need to prove PG is both a worldly & con man? THIS FACT ALONE IS SUFFICE.

A SHEEP said...

TO the one who wrote:
"Seriously, why don't you guys simply start your own church? That way, it wouldn't kill you all by wasting your precious time and effort, and waste away your spiritual life bad mouthing others?! ....."
Posted by Anonymous to Calvary Today at June 21, 2012 10:04 AM

OBVIOUSLY, YOU DON'T EVEN UNDERSTAND THE TRUE MEANING OF CHURCH IN THE FIRST PLACE. ALSO, NO OBEDIENT SHEEP WILL SELF APPOINT ONESELF TO START A *CHURCH AT HIS/HER OWN 'FANCY'! *(by your inference, a physical building, as well as 'pastoring' it)
A Pastor is a SERVANT of GOD called especially BY HIM, AND THOSE WHO SERVE KNOW that 'Shepherd's life is A LIFE of SERVANTHOOD--NOT SELF-STYLED "CEO" ala PG's WAY.

You do seem like a PG clone:(

Anonymous said...

To PG's Shadow,

The percentage of the staff & everybody expenses in the payroll is very much depend on the total income collected each year meaning this percentage decreased if the income goes up. For example, large churches in Singapore like City Harvest or New Creation where the collection is very high the percentage of workers expenses is low even through they pay their Pastors and workers very well. If I am not wrong New Creation paid one of the pastors over S$500K pa. as reported in the media. So it is subjective depend on whether your church income goes up or down. A small church where income is low I would say more than 50% is spent on paying the pastors even the salary is low comparatively to Calvary Church.

Anonymous said...

KK Wong was the lawyer engaged by PG at the EGM. Then he was the lawyer for PG for the court case.

When KK Wong suggested that the issue be settled amicably out of court in the interest of the Christian community, you know what? Wong was dismissed and another lawyer was engaged. Even though PG had said that his door is always open for discussion, it is just his play-acting from day one. He has no sincerity in what he says. Does this not show his arrogance and supremo attitude.

It's now our turn to show where it bites most. Keep up the TOTT.

Anonymous said...

When KK Wong suggested that the issue be settled amicably out of court in the interest of the Christian community, you know what? Wong was dismissed and another lawyer was engaged. Even though PG had said that his door is always open for discussion, it is just his play-acting from day one. He has no sincerity in what he says. Does this not show his arrogance and supremo attitude.
................................
\ RESPONSE TO THE ABOVE

WELL SAID..SIR WELL SAID!!!THIS IS THE REAL SP.THIS MAN WILL AXE ANYONE WHO STANDS IN HIS WAY.I THINK HE GOT HIS PRESENT INSPIRATION FROM THE CHINESE MOVIE- THE 7 SWORDSMEN.(a better title would have ben the 7 madmen)

Dialogue from the moviebefore the battle: "This is family business.Today anyone who stands in my way- friend or foe will go down!!!- and then all hell breaks loose as he swings his huge metallic blade in all directions.And then there are dead bodies all over the place. Definitely more than 400!!

God Help!! There is an AOG madman in the house!!!

Anonymous said...

Anonymous said...
Is PG's personal ministry CIM recognised by AOG of Malaysia? In one of the AOG website pages, it was written that he is the founder and president of Calvary International Ministries.

.........................
HAHAHAHAHA....HEHEHEH...HOHOHO....THANKS FOR THE LAUGH.

Anonymous said...

How tragic and sad that this acrimony is still burning after so long. Something is obviously seriously wrong within the christian community. A case of I mind my own business and you mind your own business like Cain's retort- am I my brother's keeper? I cannot believe there is not even a single one peacemaker ( Blessed are the peacemakers) within the leadership of AOG community or the leadership of the larger christian community that can reconcile the two groups. What christian testimony will this be to non believers. Read the verse: " By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another" Jn 13:35. But what we have in CC is the direct opposite.

And how do you leaders and members and exmembers of CC come to conduct or partake the bread and cup at the Lord's table with a clear conscience knowing that there still exists a serious acrimony. Are we not to be reconciled first with our brothers before we conduct or partake at the Lord's table. Don't treat God's word lightly.

Anonymous said...

I was just viewing the progress of CCC at Bukit Jalil as I was passing by.I think Christians are somewhat brainwashed and stupid.Who would want to give away so much money on a building? It just proves SP's persuasive power over the gullibles.
In Matthew 24 when the disciples showed Jesus the magnificant temple- a symbol of their religious superiority- Jesus dismissed it with a word of prophecy.Today all that is left is something Christians describe as "the wailing wall".

How much time as SP left here on earth? When he goes the way of all the earth- he will be leaving the folks with a massive continuing debt for many years to come.And who is going to help keep the place clean? You think you can convince todays youth to sacrifice their time to help keep the church clean? Dont even try. They will tell you to bring your sons and daughters first to clean up-and knowing the temperament of SP's family- that is never going to happen.

The maintenance itself is going to be costly.All in all- briefly stated- I am glad to have left.We have decided that we are not going to live the rest of our days under an atmosphere of begging - because that's what it is.

Cheerio.

Anonymous said...

CALVARY CHURCH IS BEST DESCRIBED AS FOLLOWS:

"WOE TO THE SHEPHERDS OF ISRAEL WHO FEED THEMSELVES! SHOULD NOT THE SHEPHERDS FEED THE FLOCK" (EZEKIEL 34:2)

Anonymous said...

"Above all, let us hope that PG and his Pastors and Deacons will respect the intent and faith of the giver and release every ringgit collected through the Faith Promise program to fulfill the purposes of Missions and Evangelism for which the program was originally intended." - Calvary Today

...............................

Just cannot believe this should even be mentioned to a church. What a shame indeed!

Certainly sounds like a big 'scam' from this Calvary Church, if true. Why are people still giving?!??

Perhaps the only reason is that not many people are being made aware? How many people read this blog anyway...? Maybe those concerned should try to come up with a more pro-active 'awareness' campaign so that more people can be made aware.


Posted by Anonymous to Calvary Today at June 25, 2012 11:09 PM

Anonymous said...

"How much time as SP left here on earth? When he goes the way of all the earth- he will be leaving the folks with a massive continuing debt for many years to come."

......................

True. But also consider, should the CC in the interim becomes a failure and SP sells off that building later on for an even bigger profit, where does all that money end up?

Answer ~ His family! (Money of the proceeds is parked to CC. Then money is again being 'trasferred' out to his 'related ministries' and 'missions' etc etc... All this is just like a family business!

What a Grand Finale indeed it will become for the family.

Who says this scenario cannot happen?!


Posted by Anonymous to Calvary Today at June 26, 2012 3:25 AM

Anonymous said...

"I take it that most of those commenting here are not worshipping at CC. This is evidenced by the nature and substance of comments made. The current FP article is indeed relevant but perhaps not in the context of "CBT/Police Reports/Raids/etc...". "

.........................

Are you joking?!

People giving FP for the purpose and intentions of missions are now being mis-used by CC for other purposes. This is a blatant breach of trust indeed towards the giver!

Also by the way, this blog is now on the www (world wide web). So anyone can post a reasonable comment which makes good sense!

In this case, the person making that comment makes good sense and we support that person making that honest comment! Money collected for a specific purpose has not been distributed out by CC for the purpose that it was originally intended to be used for, and have been abused!


Posted by Anonymous to Calvary Today at June 26, 2012 3:40 AM

Anonymous said...

I support what PG's Shadow commented and not what the comment posted by Anon contradicting PG's Shadow.

Even if the church's income is low, the salaries of pastors must also be reflective of their low collection. However, even if the church's income becomes very high, the percentage of the pastoral staff salaries must also be kept in check (like also how this is being done in the secular world) and therefore the balance of the money should then be put towards the expansion of the kingdom of God!


Posted by Anonymous to Calvary Today at June 26, 2012 3:49 AM

Anonymous said...

"The relevance of the FP article is for those making FP commitment to decide whether they would like their contribution to support the internal activities/programmes of CC or like the name implies (Missions), to give to God's work in Missions. If the latter, then !"

................

The person posting the above comment also makes no sense.

If CC has in the first instance promoted during their Faith Promise drive on giving towards 'missions', then why should CC members still need to have to "go and see what God is doing and (to go) give directly". Duh!!

We therefore support fully the title given to this main article "Is Calvary's Faith Promise Giving A Sham?" Good job to the writer and their entire research team for making us all become aware of what CC is doing here!


Posted by Anonymous to Calvary Today at June 26, 2012 4:03 AM

Anonymous said...

The maintenance of CCC is certainly going to be costly.

Also, not forgetting the monthly servicing of their related bank loans.

I am sure CC has this all figured out! No?


Posted by Anonymous to Calvary Today at June 26, 2012 4:07 AM

Anonymous said...

"...If there were indeed grounds, these would have happened long time ago.."

Well, that's because nobody raised this matter up or made a report. Now who dares to cast the first stone. "

....................

If Calvary Today knows this, does that mean that NO legal action can be taken.. and therefore, this blog just becomes like a 'read-only' blog and hopefully anyone reading the blog then might eventually become aware of what is actually going on at CC and hopefully people will then no longer support CC anymore??? Is that it????


Posted by Anonymous to Calvary Today at June 26, 2012 4:18 AM

Anonymous said...

To Anonymous June 26, 3.49 AM,

The question of paying the Pastors & workers depend very much on your definition of fair wages. Even in the secular world like big multi- national companies the top executives are paid very well because they are the ones that bring in revenue to the company, to them paying the top executives millions in bonuses is fair wages. So, if CC overpay the Pastors & staff then it is the members' responsibilities to ask for justification during the AGM.

Anonymous said...

then might eventually become aware of
Posted by Anonymous to Calvary Today at June 26, 2012 4:18 AM
.........................................
Being aware is half the battle won.This has resulted in TOTT,which is working wonderfully.Most wonderfully.

Anonymous said...

If according to lawyer Mr KK Wong that "CC is not a legal entity..", I wonder if those banks giving out such big loans to CC for the CCC have not carried out their required due deligence tests on CC? I am sure loans cannot be so easily given out if such basic due deligence have been promptly carried out.

Unless of course.., if somebody inside made all that happen.. and without bypassing the strict scrutiny of the bank's internal controls and thier own internal auditors?! Ahem.

SO now, who also wants to throw the first stone at those banks giving out these big loans to CC ?!


Posted by Anonymous to Calvary Today at June 26, 2012 3:35 PM

Anonymous said...

The difference between Singapore and Malaysia. One is exposed, the other is covered up.
http://www.straitstimes.com/The-Big-Story/The-Big-Story-1/Story/STIStory_815169.html


Posted by Anonymous to Calvary Today at June 26, 2012 4:14 PM

Unknown said...

Latest news on S'pore City Harvest Church, "Commissioner of Charities suspends governing board members of City Harvest Church" http://news.asiaone.com/News/Latest%2BNews/Singapore/Story/A1Story20120626-355492.html


Posted by Unknown to Calvary Today at June 26, 2012 4:18 PM

Anonymous said...

Breaking news "City Harvest church founder Kong Hee and 4 others arrested" http://news.asiaone.com/News/Latest%2BNews/Singapore/Story/A1Story20120626-355491.html


Posted by Anonymous to Calvary Today at June 26, 2012 4:34 PM

Anonymous said...

If Malaysia has similar laws PG would also be arrested. The unauthorized transfer of the RM1.9 million from Missions Department to his personal ministry would be CBT in Singapore. He is getting away because of the weakness of our laws. Malaysia Boleh!

Anonymous said...

Please read the press release from the Singapore Commissioner of Charities which gives details of what they found.

http://www.channelnewsasia.com/annex/COC%20Press%20Statement%2026%20Jun%202012.pdf

Oh so similar.

Anonymous said...

Faith Promise is not biblical.


Posted by Anonymous to Calvary Today 2 at June 19, 2012 11:33 PM

.............................

True!!!

Forsake it.

Let us all have nothing to do with all these fancy-holy-sounding 'schemes'. Evenmore if when you are not sure that what you are giving to actually reaches where you have intended/designated your money to go.

Give your hard earned money to the more deserved needs around you, and help to honestly reach and touch these people's lives so that they can truly see a true and living God residing in you.

God will still bless you abundantly for not 'giving' to this Faith Promise.

I PROMISE that!


Posted by Anonymous to Calvary Today at June 26, 2012 6:40 PM

Anonymous said...

So, if CC overpay the Pastors & staff then it is the members' responsibilities to ask for justification during the AGM.


Posted by Anonymous to Calvary Today 2 at June 26, 2012 11:15 AM

.......................

Sure, if this is a 'fair' AGM.

But CC's AGM is all usually 'orchestrated' and boderline crap!

True or not?!


Posted by Anonymous to Calvary Today at June 26, 2012 6:45 PM

Anonymous said...

SO now, who also wants to throw the first stone at those banks giving out these big loans to CC ?!

June 26, 2012 3:35 PM

..........................

Is there an element of greasing some bank officer/manager's palm here?

Wow!

So this so called 'bench-mark church' is probably no different from the corporate world?

Wow! Everything also can become BOLEH? Wow!!


Posted by Anonymous to Calvary Today at June 26, 2012 6:50 PM

Anonymous said...

"SINGAPORE: Five members of City Harvest Church (CHC), including its founder Pastor Kong Hee, have been arrested for alleged criminal breach of trust and falsification of accounts of the church.

CAD said it commenced an investigation on 31 May 2010 into certain financial transactions of CHC after receiving information of misuse of church funds.

The Commissioner of Charities (COC) began its inquiry into the charity on the same day under the Charities Act over alleged misconduct and mismanagement of the building fund which had been raised and earmarked for specific purposes. .." ~ excerpt from Singapore News today!

http://www.channelnewsasia.com/stories/singaporelocalnews/view/1209942/1/.html

.....................

So now, who says the term "CBT" has not been appropriately used here when comes to describing CC's abuse of their own financials?!


Posted by Anonymous to Calvary Today at June 26, 2012 7:01 PM

CAGED said...

Prince Guneratnam was the speaker in City Harvest Church in Singapore, 26-30 May 2010

Birds of the same feathers.......
Will PG be caged too ?????????

Cleansing, Cleansing, Cleansing
Yes! Lord, we need your cleansing
Let it begin in your house.

Let us continue to pray for cleansing
God is working in ways we do not see
or understand
And His ways are perfect
He is never early or late
But in His perfect time.

God will restore His church to His former Glory
Amen and Amen.

Pray for the members of CHC
Let us humble ourselves
I need thee oh I need thee
Every hour I need thee

Anonymous said...

For the latest on the investigations by the authorities regarding City Harvest Church, just type: latest on city harvest church investigations and read the headlines under various media reports.

Kong Hee and the four members of CHC arrested will be charged in court on Wednesday.

To get an idea how funds are manipulated with crossovers, go to: http://www.publichouse.sg and then click on 'go' when "misconduct and mismanagement at city harvest church" is shown.

Anonymous said...

Four Laws Infringed !
(1)Their Refusal to register under "TRUSTEES (INCORPORATION) ACT 1952","Calvary Church" has chosen to remain as an "Unincorporated Body"!
(2) "Calvary Church" as an "Unincorporated Body" is "ONLY AFFILIATED" to AOG Malaysia by way of a "Certificate of Affiliation"!Current accounts opened using this "Certificate of Affiliation",thereby violating BAFIA guidelines which requires "Body Corporate" under "TRUSTEES (INCORPORATION) ACT 1952" or Societies Act 1966!
(3)CIM as an "Unincorporated Body" did not have a certificate of affiliation, hence the bank closed its Current account ! CIM is a private "CLUB" within the meaning of Section 2 of the Societies Act 1966!
(4) Got Trapped by their Failure to get "Calvary Church" registered under the Societies Act is already an offence by itself!
(A) PENAL CODE @ Criminal breach of trust
Section 405. Whoever, being in any manner entrusted with property, or with any dominion over property either solely or jointly with any other person dishonestly misappropriates, or converts to his own use, that property, or dishonestly uses or disposes of that property in violation of any direction of law prescribing the mode in which such trust is to be discharged, or of any legal contract, express or implied, which he has made touching the discharge of such trust, or wilfully suffers any other person so to do, commits “criminal breach of trust”.
“Dishonestly” @ Section 24. Whoever does anything with the intention of causing wrongful gain to one person, or wrongful loss to another person, irrespective of whether the act causes actual wrongful loss or gain, is said to do that thing “dishonestly”. Explanation—In relation to the offence of criminal misappropriation or criminal breach of trust it is immaterial whether there was an intention to defraud or to deceive any person.
(A)TRUSTEE ACT 1949 @Power to make beneficiary indemnify for breach of trust
Section64. (1) Where a trustee commits a breach of trust at the instigation or request or with the consent in writing of a beneficiary, the Court may, if it thinks fit, and notwithstanding that the beneficiary may be a married woman restrained from anticipation, make such order as to the Court seems just, for impounding all or any part of the interest of the beneficiary in the trust estate by way of indemnity to the trustee or persons claiming through him.
(B)TRUSTEES (INCORPORATION) ACT 1952 @ Liability of trustees and others, notwithstanding incorporation
Section 6. After a certificate of incorporation has been granted under this Act all trustees of the body or association of persons, "notwithstanding their incorporation",shall be chargeable for such property as shall come into their hands, and shall be answerable and accountable for their own acts, receipts, neglects and defaults, and for the due administration of the body or association of persons and its property, in the same manner and to the same extent "as if no such incorporation" had been effected, and nothing herein contained shall diminish or impair any control or authority exerciseable by the Attorney General under section 9 of the Government Proceedings Act 1956 [Act 359] over the trustees who shall be so incorporated "but they shall remain subject jointly and separately" to such control and authority "as if they were not incorporated" .
(C)SOCIETIES ACT 1966 @ Unlawful societies
Section 2. society” includes any club, company, partnership, or association of seven or more persons whatever its nature or object, whether temporary or permanent, but does not include—
(b) any company or association constituted under any written law;
Section 41. (1) For the purposes of this Act any of the following societies shall be an unlawful society, that is to say—
(b) a society or a branch thereof which is not registered under section 7 ;

So who want to throw the first stone ?

Anonymous said...

So this so called 'bench-mark church' is probably no different from the corporate world?

.....................

Oh so true!

You know what, when I come to think about it.. I realise that Jesus does not wear a tie or a suit.

He takes time to visit and eats with the poor, the destitute and even reaches out to the prostitutes to give them hope and an everlasting life.

And I agree with another comment made, that the term "Faith Promise" sure makes it all sound so 'fancy and holy'.

I think it is better to give my money to the real needs that I see around me everyday, so that those who's life's I have help touch might also begin to ask about who is this God that I serve!


Posted by Anonymous to Calvary Today at June 26, 2012 8:06 PM

Anonymous said...

I thought the church would uphold and practise a code of business ethics entirely different and separate, from the way the corporate world sometimes does things.

As much as "Faith Promise" is faith on the part of the giver, why not also practise this same "Faith" when comes to the way a church should go about doing business/securing loans?

Only a no-brainer bank would give a huge loan to a "non-legal entity"! ~ Fact!

Unless.. of course, the only exception will be when such a huge loan transaction has been mysteriously 'en-abled' to become Boleh!


Posted by Anonymous to Calvary Today at June 26, 2012 8:38 PM

Anonymous said...

Further to Anonymous, June 26, 9:48pm, paragraph 1 should read: For the latest on the investigations by the authorities regarding City harvest Church, just type: "latest on city harvest church investigations" in Google and search and read the news in various media reports

Anonymous said...

Pastors should live their lives and conduct their duties UNSTAINED FROM THE WORLD. If the pastors compromises with worldly standard & principles, then the the church will not be a spiritual filled church. If you are of the world then you put yourself as an enemy of God.

The "foot-tapping, hands clapping, hips swaying and the music rocking" worship of City Harvest Church is not a spirit filled worship of a Holy God. The church breeds of dishonest, untrusted & corrupted worldly pastors who are after their own lusts. They can preached, wailed and cry but their words are in vain because their hearts are not righteous with God. "Know them by their fruits" says the Lord, for these are false prophets that will arise in latter days. There will be false teachers amongst you, the Bible says. Do not be deceived by them for they are wolves in sheeps clothings. The strange thing with these self righteous pastors is that they truly thought they are really serving God, but they never realised their hearts are never listening, never hearing, & never learning.

What happened with City Harvest Church and whats happening in Calvary Church is simply a fullfillment of Bible prophesy that false teachers (pastors) will arise in latter days in our own backyards, our own churches. This herald that the coming of our Lord is sooner than ever.

Anonymous said...

Let's not judge anyone or any church.

What's is happening in Singapore is not for us to pass judgement.

Let us humble ourselves and pray for all the churches in general.

One of the 400.

Anonymous said...

Why must this person under Annoymous keeps on instigating others to cast the first stone?
If you feel so strongly about it, do it yourself.
Do not provoke others.

Anonymous said...

The investigations into City Harvest Church by CAD and CoC is about misconduct and mismanagement of the funds collected.

Read the report on page 34 in the STAR today.

Whether one is in the secular world or spiritual, any wrongdoings cannot be condoned.

The article about misconduct and mismanagement ... by www.publichouse.sg is in indeed interesting on crossovers. Is there a similarity with regard to CC's Communication Min. and CCC?

Anonymous said...

PG had actually brought "SHAME" to himself by "CASTING the FIRST STONE" , by "PASSING NUMEROUS JUDGEMENTS " !

Examples as follows :-
(1)the removal of Dr. Lum Siew Heng as a member of Calvary Church on 20th March 2009.
(2)Termination of church membership is a disciplinary action. There must be a "trial" so to speak. They definately did not have the "trial" sessions with the 400 some members.
(3) Terminate the 7 members REINSTATED by the High Court for the second time! Contempt of Court!

"THROW the first stone" means to "BRING BEFORE" a JUDGE or a Tribunal like in the days of King Solomon ! Remember to use your "SPIRITUAL GIFT OF DISCERNMENT" !

For Criminal Action to be initiated , The First Information REPORT must be Filed with the Registrar of Societies under the SOCIETIES ACT 1966 @ for Unlawful societies !

The "FLOODGATE" may be opened to investigate many "Sovereign Churches" throughout Malaysia who "FORGOT" or "Inadvertently" did not Register under the TRUSTEES (INCORPORATION) ACT 1952 @ (Liability of trustees and others, notwithstanding incorporation) BUT automatically FALLS under the JURISDICTION of SOCIETIES ACT 1966 @ for Unlawful societies !

No Escape for Registered Trustees as they are "VICARIOUSLY LIABLE" to a material degree under the TRUSTEE ACT 1949 @ (Power to make beneficiary indemnify for breach of trust).Section64. (1) Where a trustee commits a breach of trust at the instigation or request or with the consent in writing of a beneficiary.

Section 405 PENAL CODE @ (Criminal breach of trust) should provide a comprehensive Legal NET!

All the ingredients of "Truth, Transparency, Good Governance, Stewardship and Accountability"
are Clearly defined IN DETAILS under these Four Federal Laws!

WE do not need to FEAR these 4 Laws if We are at Peace with GOD and at Peace with Ourselves!

Please apply Wisdom and see from the Prosecution point of view!
So who want to THROW the first stone !

Deuteronomy 8 : 18 - 20 .

Anonymous said...

'NO ONE CAN TOUCH ME'-SP

The above just about summarizes the attitude of SP. You can do anything you want- but SP just aint moving!!!

The truth be told- he is really speaking for all the AOG religious titled crooks.No NT Apostle carried this titles pre-fixed before their names. Next time your Reverend comes around with his holy title,ask him to show it to you from the Bible which he preaches.He knows very well it is a fake title!!! What what to do....Wan Sek Loh!!!

These are the shameless breeds in our midst.SP has dragged AOG's dignity(whatever was left) into the mud.

Voice in the Wilderness- Repent!!

Anonymous said...

Where have we heard this before ?

(D) Governance and Control Issues

8. Evidence suggested that certain members of the Charity’s Board have been less than prudent in the discharge of their duties toward the Charity and its members. For example, the appointment of Investment Manager, Chew Eng Han’s investment company, was not properly tabled and discussed by the Charity’s Board.

9. The Inquiry further revealed that when Chew Eng Han suffered financial difficulties, the Charity refunded donations amounting to about $338,000 to him in two separate tranches, i.e. $240,000 and $98,000. However, in respect of the $98,000, the Charity’s Board only gave approval for the refund of donations to Chew Eng Han 9 months after the refunds were made.

10. The poor corporate governance in the Charity contributed, at least in part, to the fact that the Charity was able to maintain the above-mentioned activities for the past 3 years.

http://sg.news.yahoo.com/how-did-alleged-misconduct-at-chc-take-place-.html

Anonymous said...

Quoting a comment above: "Let's not judge anyone or any church."

That's the kind of teaching and attitute that led to alot of strange teachings, abuse of power/authority and misuse of money in many churches today esp Pentecostal and charismatic churches. "Touch not the annointed" and " judge not least you be judged" are the threats commonly thrown at those who exercise discernment and dare to criticise and speak out. The absence of discernment and judgement or critical evaluation in Pentecostal/charismatic groups has actually made these 'annointed' pastors and leaders swollened headed and emboldened them to do as they please. So those who refuse to critically evaluate and judge to put things right from the start, are actually the ones who help to contribute to the unrighteous things taking place. Financial abuse by pastors and evangelists are so common today that the unbelievers mock PTL to mean 'pass the loot'. Can we blame them for having such negative impression when so many are so gullible sitting in the pews each week and saying 'amen' to everything the pastor say or do without exercising one bit of discernment but instead condemn others who do with 'touch not the annointed'and telling them 'judge not'.

Anonymous said...

(1) As of today , "Calvary Church" was and still remained as an unincorporated body ! So it automatically FALLS under the JURISDICTION of SOCIETIES ACT 1966 @ for Unlawful societies !

(2) Why the "Registered Trustees of AOG Malaysia" registered on 1-10-2003 under the "Trustee (Incorporation)Act 1952" chose to issue to "CALVARY CHURCH" as "local assemblies" recognized as being "sovereign churches" with " A Certificate of Affiliation", when it was "NOT LEGALLY registered with a recognized government body" ?

This " Certificate of Affiliation" was presented for opening numerous Current Accounts and for applying for BANK LOANS !

" Calvary Church " as an Unlawful society is hereby "AFFILIATED to AOG Malaysia " ever since 1-10-2003 !

AS such AOG Malaysia is Vicariously LIABLE in the FIRST Degree for ALL the "Alleged Offences" IF ANY of "Calvary Church" simply through its AFFILIATION by way of " A Certificate of Affiliation"!

AOG Malaysia Constitution seems to contain Contradictions !
(1).....(."provided that the church is legally registered with a recognized government body"),.....
the church can decide to leave the title deed in the name of the “Registered Trustees of the Assemblies of God of Malaysia” or transfer it in their own church name.
(3). The Registered Trustees of the Assemblies of God of Malaysia may by notice in writing and at their absolute discretion permit or empower members from time to time of a local church to appoint from among their number local trustees by way of a Trust Deed to act on behalf of those members with regard to the entering into of any Sales & Purchase Agreement or remodeling and financing of the same. Upon the full-repayment of any such financing and
.....("in the event the local church is not at that time legally registered with a recognized government body"),....
the local trustees shall transfer the property to the “Registered Trustees of the Assemblies of God of Malaysia” as trustees.

AOG Malaysia has FAILED to PROVE its READINESS and WORTHINESS to APPLY or to be appointed as a SELF REGULATORY ORGANISATION (SRO)!

The Methodist, the Anglican and the Roman Catholic Churches are all governed by their respective FEDERAL LAWS as Independent SELF REGULATORY ORGANISATIONS !

Please apply Wisdom and see from the Prosecution point of view!

Deuteronomy 8 : 18 - 20 .

Anonymous said...

In response to Annoy. June 27, 11.32am who stated 'Let's not judge anyone or any church'.

Do you know the Bible teaches "Ye who are spiritual,judges all things"? This spiritual judging is biblical and not wrong. Jesus instructed us to know (spiritual judging) them "by their fruits" if they are true or false teachers. These "modern day money changers" are like the Pharisees & the Scribes of the NT period. You read your Bible and see how the Lord judges and exposed them. Praying is of no use if you pretend and turn your eyes away from spiritual unrighteousness.

You identified yourself as one of the 400. But I'm suspicious and do not think you are.

Anonymous said...

Food for Thought:

Nothing can be more cruel than the leniency which abandons others to their sin.
Nothing can be more compassionate than the severe reprimand which calls another Christian in our community back from the path of sin.
- Dietrich Bonhoeffer -

Anonymous said...

I really don't understand. If everyone just TOTT, PG & gang will be biting dust soon.....

If anyone from the congregation is still dumb or naive enough to even bother to look at the Pledge Card, he/she will only have himself/herself to be blamed. Hello! Calvary Church congregation are supposed to be smart people right? No?

Remember - A Fool & his money will be parted.

Shalom!


Posted by Anonymous to Calvary Today at June 27, 2012 2:35 PM

Anonymous said...

"He who works deceit shall not dwell within my house; He who tells lies shall not continue in my presence." ~ Psalm 101:7 New King James Version (NKJV)

.....................

Thanks to the person who has posted this.

So I guess we now come to the crux of it.
Who is telling lies, or working deceits?

Calvary Today? OR PG and all those involved?!

Dear Lord, we continue on to pray that you will answer our petitions put out here, and that you will bring your word to come to pass. Thank you, in Jesus name we pray. Amen!

(Feel free in joining me to remain in an attitude of 'quietness' from posting anymore comments just for today.., simply a 'fast' in acknowledging God's presence inside this blog, and believing that God will indeed move to answer what Psalm 101:7 has said ~ thanks all. Amen.).


Posted by Anonymous to Calvary Today at June 27, 2012 10:22 PM

Anonymous said...

So who want to THROW the first stone !

Deuteronomy 8 : 18 - 20 .


Posted by Anonymous to Calvary Today 2 at June 27, 2012 1:25 PM

......................

Why can't you do it (throw the first stone) now?!?


Posted by Anonymous to Calvary Today at June 27, 2012 11:07 PM

Anonymous said...

It is time for Calvary Church Deacons to provide a check and balance in Calvary Church's governance, otherwise, we may end up like City Harvest!

Stop being a Yes-man Deacon.

Anonymous said...

Does This Sound Familiar?

He dared to ask about use of church funds 10 years ago


By Bryna Sim
Almost 10 years ago, Mr Roland Poon dared to ask whether City Harvest Church was using church funds to fund Ho Yeow Sun's music career.

The question resulted in him having to make a public apology to the church in January 2003. The then-businessman left City Harvest soon after.

Now, the charges filed against five City Harvest church members seem to have vindicated Mr Poon's actions.

UNCOMFORTABLE WITH CHURCH LEADERS' ACTIONS

'He was uncomfortable with the way the leaders would use sermon and worship time to promote Ho Yeow Sun's songs.'

A family friend, talking about Mr Roland Poon, who in 2003 questioned the use of church money to fund Ho Yeow Sun's music career
When The Straits Times visited Mr Poon's house on Wednesday evening, his daughter said the 62-year-old was out of town on a mission trip

Same brave soul in the form of Dr. Lum started asking tough questions over governance issues at CC and was promptly given the boot by PG.

Anonymous said...

Next time your Reverend comes around with his holy title,ask him to show it to you from the Bible which he preaches.He knows very well it is a fake title!!! What what to do....Wan Sek Loh!!!
..........................................
I agree with the above blogger.The Rev.titles are a fake created by the church denomination to give them some clout over the sheep.These are the hirelings in our midst.And they can be extremely deceitful in money and moral matters.The Rev. title is only reserved for the Most High. There was no one in the entire NT who used this title. The AOG system is based on a sham and they know it themselves.But they will never own up to it. What do do.....? Wan Sek Loh!!!Shameful way to earn ones bread!!!!!!

Anonymous said...

THE AOG FIASCO
Back in the early 80's Bible studies was very popular.Back then,I earnestly looked foward to Wednesdays Bible study.I rush back from work, take a shower and rush off to church to join the worship and then Bible study and then the glorious fellowship- free yummy mee hoon and teh tarik.The atmosphere was just so blessed- laughing, talking and just enjoying each others company.Then what happened? Suddenly everyone wanted to build big buildings. The rat race begun. Today Bible studies are virtually non existant. You would be surprised if 2 sheep showed up. Then we heard strange doctrines like the following creeping into the church...

1.Laughing & growling in the spirit on Sundays..(I got a jolt in church one Sunday when an aunty with haggard hair behind me shouted very loudly hahaha...hahaha.. followed by many others)- siau-siau-if you ask my opinion

2. Slaining in the spirit...( ushers usually come in with their RM9.90 Made in China blankets to cover your fall)

3. Confess and Possess doctrine(did not last long)

4 Transference of spirits (taught that Christians can be possessed)
5.Then came the so called school of prophets- disappeared quickly too)
6.Followed by the so called Joshua generation- "Give me this Mountain!!"

7.Then little Bibles schools popped up all over the land with each claiming that their was the best school

8 Then the business man church came about- with the church being described as the economic church. Didnt last long either.

9.Then this shouting during prayer meetings... "I will say to the North- "GIVE UP!!!"and to the South 'DO NOT HOLD BACK!!!" (the Christian demanding his "rightful" blessings)

10 and then finally this testimony from an AOG pastor "I was reading the Bible today and this verse jumped out at me!!! ENLARGE THE PLACE OR YOUR TENTS...!!!! And so the ambition to build a mega church was born!!!Those who resist get axed.

I tell you truly- get back to Bible study folks.Only then we will have the right Spirit fellowshipping with us.Cheerio.

SP=LEARN THE LESSON FROM KONG HEE.

Anonymous said...

The question resulted in him having to make a public apology to the church in January 2003. The then-businessman left City Harvest soon after.
............................................
HAHAHAHA.....HEHEHEHEHE....HOHOHO....LEARN THE LESSON WELL CHURCH GOER!!! THE TRUTH IS THES EAOG REV. HAVE ENORMOUS AMBITIONS.

Anonymous said...

City harvest is not AOG.

TEN YEARS said...

Almost 10 years ago, Mr Roland Poon dared to ask whether City Harvest Church was using church funds to fund Ho Yeow Sun's music career.


Warnings was given for almost 10 years
Repentance awaits for almost 10 years
Reconcilation on hold for almost 10 years
Confession on pause for almost 10 years
Peace keeping delay for almost 10 years

So God has given him a chance to do it right
What takes him so long ?????
3,650 days not enough !!!!!!!

Wonder ???????

How many years does Prince Guneratnam needs?
Hope not longer than the above......

God, the creator of heavens and earth is in
CONTROL

Anonymous said...

On Wednesday, Kong Hee was charged in court with three counts of conspiracy to commit criminal breach of trust in connection with a scheme to syphon at least $23 mil of church funds from 2007 to 2010 to finance the singing career of his wife. Ho Yeow Sun.

Prosecutors also charged four other church leaders with breach of trust and conspiracy to commit falsification of accounts. Deacons beware!

Unrighteous spiritual leaders locally would be shivering and having sleepless nights.

Anonymous said...

Must read ==> How Cults Work ?
http://www.howcultswork.com/


Posted by Anonymous to Calvary Today at June 28, 2012 11:31 PM

Anonymous said...

"City Harvest is not AOG."
With the teachings of the WOF charismatic health and wealth 'gospel' so prevalent in AOG and Pentecostal churches today, they are now synonymous with WOF charismatics like City Harvest. No difference. These Kenneth Hagin's teachings were introduced and popularised in AOG and Pentecostals churches by the late Oral Roberts. Today's Pentecostal (AOG included) is so different from the classical pentecostal. Ask the early pioneers in CC if WOF health wealth prosperity gospel was ever heard or taught in CC then. The AOG joined the band wagon of this false gospel to atract people esp the youth to boost attendance.

Anonymous said...

The Book of Proverbs says:" Spare the rod and HATE your child"

We could apply the same wisdom to the family of God and say. " spare the criticism and HATE your pastor or spare the criticism and don't block his way to jail." That what people who cry " don't judge" are doing.

Anonymous said...

PG time is near. It;s sooner than later....

http://www.malaysia-chronicle.com/index.php?option=com_k2&view=item&id=35639:abuse-of-church-funds-not-new-in-msia-either-rm59mil-to-support-wifes-singing-career&Itemid=2

Anonymous said...

To Anonymous June 29 9:28am

I wrote the "City Harvest is not AOG" comment. Reading your post, I agree with you. Yes, new teachings were introduced with the charismatics that would have been unrecognisable to the pioneer AOGs, in fact, the hallmark of Pentecostals then was their faith in God and their willingness to throw their whole lives at his feet and for his disposal. That was living by faith, not the materialistic "faith" of today that measures spirituality by the number of zeroes in your cheque.

Anonymous said...

Yes, strict adherence to the Word, obedience to Christ and holy living were the early traits of early Pentecostals, not the material success and money talk now.

Anonymous said...

KELDAI PEMIMPIN [donkeys of the leader]

This is a message to all the pastoral staff at AOG churches -especially those "keldai" at CC.

Keldai Pemimpin is a very cynical remark in the Malay speaking Community-used both by religious and political leaders.The connotation here is that of an unthinking person who supports their leader inspite of the tell tale signs showing that the leader is slipping.

Support staff in all AOG churches-keep in mind that no matter how successful or eloquent your minister is-HE/SHE IS ALSO A SINNER SAVED BY GRACE and surely must have his/her own private struggles.They may conceal this cleverly from the public eye but the indwelling Holy Spirit knoweth all things.

The present saga of Kong Hee is a lesson for all "keldais" of their leader.So why do the sheep still support the leader in spite of allegations of financial dismeanor and serious complaints? Here are a few reasons.

1.The presence of the leader is Powerful-almost cultic.(dumb sheep interpret his shouting/screaming from the church pulpit as anointing)

2.A Holy Bible in hand and his/her eloquence- together with a "Rev" title crowning him/her- he appears AWESOME and authorized by Christ.All resistance to his/her leadership is snuffed out.His favourite sermons is "commitment" and "submission" to his vision and authority.

3.The 3rd reason is simple-the sheep are stupid,WITH A CAPITAL "S"- and are told that they are "more than conquerors" but unconsciously fit the category of Keldai Pemimpin.

All supporting staff at CC and other AOG churches-if you know your leader is slipping- pray,and if he does not relent from his connivings, get out from the scene.Besides Kong Hee -4 others were charged for being accomplices. Dont make this a personal experience and a reality in your own life.

For we did not receive a Spirit of fear but of a sound mind..."

That is one of the giftings God has blessed every believer with-a stable mind which is open to the Spirits invitation to live in the light.

It is my personal belief that the pastoral staff at CC right now- including Dr.Guynes- have become Keldai Pemimpins of SP.Especially RY and SK(The same is true of many other AOG churches)

To all my fellow Christians everywhere- "dont forsake the Christian fellowship"- but dont compromise your sanctity.Don't be drawn into anyones Crap- even though it cometh from an angel in heaven.Fear Christ's Words- "...Depart from Me- I never knew you..."

SP-since the arrest of Kong Hee-I suspect you must be pretty busy covering your tracks?

THE CURTAINS ARE COMING DOWN

Anonymous said...

In the early days, it was all about living by faith and servanthood. Today its all about leadership seminars and " he became poor for my sake that through his poverty I might become rich"

Is that the only teaching from the Bible? Today most pastors are hurtful and abusive. CC has proven that very well.

Anonymous said...

Kong Hee has his MPA and PG has his CIM. Same same. Kong Hee moves funds from CHC Singapore to CHC KL and then to his MPA. PG moves donations for Indonesian earthquake victims to CC Missions Department and then to CIM. Same same.

Anonymous said...

Pastor allegedly steals to fund wife's pop career‎

Stuff.co.nz - 2 days ago
FACING PRISON TIME: Kong Hee is accused of syphoning at least SG$23 million (NZ$22.7 million) of church funds to finance the career of his ...
...................................
google

Anonymous said...

PASTOR KONG HEE TELAN DUIT GEREJA SEBANYAK SD18,000,000.

Pastor swallows church money

article inmalays newspaper

Anonymous said...

Anonymous at 4:27pm on June 29,2012 said ........ Kong Hee has his MPA and PG has his CIM. Same same. Kong Hee moves funds from CHC Singapore to CHC KL and then to his MPA. PG moves donations for Indonesian earthquake victims to CC Missions Department and then to CIM. Same same.

.................................................................................

The simple reason why it is "same same" or "sama sama" is because both KH & PG have the same "sifu" (i.e "master" in Chinese) - Cho Yonggi.

Cho Yonggi himself has gotten into trouble with the Korean authorities. So it is not surprising that KH, one of his his students, is now in trouble with the Singaporean authorities.

PG, another of Cho Yonggi's students, will get his turn is in due course.

Someone said that KH was warned 10 years ago; well, PG was warned 4 years ago in March 2008.

There will be a day when PG's Maker will say to him "PG, PG, PG, why didn't you heed My many Warnings? Those whom I sent to warn you were persecuted by you of all perople. Why, PG, Why did you do this to Me?"

Anonymous said...

To the Anonymous who keep asking "who will cast the first stone" ........

Why don't you do it yourself? Instead of trying to provoke others, "just do it" if the Lord has spoken to you to do so. Don't be a Jonah. If not, just hold your peace because this is a spiritual matter - the battle is not yours or ours, it is the Lord's.

In case the Lord has spoken to you to do it, here is your golden opportunity - print 400 handbills (on PG's lack of TTG i.e. Truth, transparency & Godly Governance) & go & distribute it to the dumb sheep (Calvarites) & others at the Calvary Carnival at Taylor's University, Lakeside Campus, Bandar Sunway between 9am to 5pm on Sat 30th June 2012.

Now that would really bring awareness to the dumb sheep & the innocent.

Do I hear you just asked "Why 400 handbills?" Well, it is justice for the 400 axed-Calvarites. You can go beyond that number if you deem fit to do so.

God bless you for doing it & creating greater awareness so that the dumb sheep will also TOTT & then we can achieve TTOTT (Totally Turn Off The Tap) to bring PG back from Mammon to God.

Anonymous said...

PG days are numbered, Judgement begin in the household of God.

Anonymous said...

Emphasizing on 'Faith Promise' collected and what actually gets distributed out by calvary church is probably only just one part of the story. Let us all not forget.

Can “Calvary Today” also give a report on PG's 'related ministries'? How much was distributed to such 'ministries' for the past 10 years? What are the bank balances of these 'related ministries' for the respective years? Can we have a report on how much 'expenses' were 'incurred' by these respective 'related ministries'? Then carry out a reasonableness analysis on the expenses to see if the expenses incurred have been reasonable? Do we also know how many 'souls' have been saved thru such 'ministries' or the 'fruits' of such ministries justifying all their related expenses? Remember, City Harvest Church 'transferred' out enormous amounts out, but tried to justify or to 'hide' these transfers to be 'ministry related'...

We know Mrs PG is probably not a ‘mega pop singer’, BUT what else don’t we really know?!

We hope "Calvary Today" might help to enlighten us all even further..??


Posted by Anonymous to Calvary Today at June 29, 2012 5:26 AM

Anonymous said...

THE AOG FIASCO
Back in the early 80's Bible studies was very popular.Back then,I earnestly looked foward to Wednesdays Bible study.I rush back from work, take a shower and rush off to church to join the worship and then Bible study and then the glorious fellowship- free yummy mee hoon and teh tarik.The atmosphere was just so blessed- laughing, talking and just enjoying each others company.Then what happened? Suddenly everyone wanted to build big buildings. The rat race begun. Today Bible studies are virtually non existant. You would be surprised if 2 sheep showed up. Then we heard strange doctrines like the following creeping into the church...

Dear bro who wrote this.

i too have been noticing this trend as you have seen totally agree with you on the bible study part.
as you have written trends 1 - 10. can i ask you in your opinion what do you think we should be doing and what aim or focus should the pastor and congregation aim for?

i went to glad tidings when they had the korean conference and saw their new building nice design and the people seem to be so commited and looking forward to the new premises. though i myself may not like mega church it seems that each church and its members are focused and happpy that they got a project to do and look forward to. i am pastoring a church in johor and i am tempted to also start a building project but God stopped me doing it. people seem to want a new place but i don't want the headache of bldg fund and all that havoc that goes wif it. pls advise. Jacob


Posted by Anonymous to Calvary Today at June 29, 2012 4:44 PM

Anonymous said...

Kong Hee has his MPA and PG has his CIM. Same same. Kong Hee moves funds from CHC Singapore to CHC KL and then to his MPA. PG moves donations for Indonesian earthquake victims to CC Missions Department and then to CIM. Same same.

....................

"Same same"... but different!

Kong Hee has been charged in court now, his passport now compounded. PG is STILL a free man!!

Is Singapore then, a 'better' nation??!
But Malaysia also Boleh correct?!


Posted by Anonymous to Calvary Today at June 30, 2012 3:48 AM

Anonymous said...

I attended a very small church. We are allowed to ask Pastor any time how church fund is managed, without been blacklisted/scolded. We can also call Toll free phone number to complaint in confidence of any abuses, which will be investigated by independent bodies, under Safe church policy. Pastors are paid same amount of salary irrespective of seniority. The is no "marketing/guilt-induced smooth talk" before offering bags is pass around. Offering amount is published every week. We are not rich church but God had provided. We are not a prefect church, but these good practices had help to avoid scandals.
Greeting from Australia.

Anonymous said...

THE AOG FIASCO.- MY REPLY
"....as you have written trends 1 -10. can i ask you in your opinion what do you think we should be doing and what aim or focus should the pastor and congregation aim for?

i went to glad tidings when they had the korean conference and saw their new building nice design and the people seem to be so commited and looking forward to the new premises

Posted by Anonymous to Calvary Today at June 29, 2012 4:44 PM
........................................
I feel greatly humbled that a Pastor has asked some advice.AOG Rev. are not known to have this trait.This is known to all now.SP is a living example before our eyes.
Firstly, all of us can be deceived by outward appearances.Evry time I visit a church,judging from the worship,the collection and the sermons-everyone seems to be happy.But thats only the outward appearance.The 1st hurdle- Am I competent to such an opinion? What are my credentials?
My credentials are these- I have been a Christian for 25 years but I am not a leader.I believe my role is to support those who preach Gods Word.My private principle? "Let all things be done for edifying"(I fear those Pastors who have the fear of God)-To those who dont- I just avoid them because, in my opinion they are demons/brutes in human form roaming the earth.

I am also a professional and because of the nature of my job-I meet many clients with various problems.Only last week, a certain lady came to see me-accompanied by 2 others.The brief facts-husband chased her out of the house on suspicion of adultery.I probed.Private investigators were employed by her husband.She was caught in a hotel room with her lover.She wanted reconciliation.I told her the legal dilemma.Can you believe that these people attend a big AOG church where I sometimes drop by? I can tell you of many situations,College students caught for prostituion,juveniles with drug problems,and husbands with new China doll mistresses. I am taking about church people. But I dont Judge.Thats none of my business.I am no angel either.

All the above while the leadership is busy putting up another big bhuilding. If I squeal-no doubt I would be booted out.Alasan? Bad Testimony.

My opinion- if we have a big congregation- can we give them pastoral care? Can 5/6 pastors cater for the spiritual welfare of such a crowd of 3000? Its easy to preach and disappear.But i know for a fact, ther are so many lonely and bitter people within the church.Not to mention financial problems.Of course, when we come together- we all smile and sing.

If a church does not have the pastoral staff- they should not aspire big.There is so much to learn from the NT church structure.

Grace.Mercy and Peace to you.

Anonymous said...

Like all Charismatic Pentecostal ministers, Pastor KH preaches a "prosperity gospel" which is a false gospel. Below is a quote from news how Kong Hee preaches.

"What we give every week is the measure of the value that you place on your Lord & your Saviour Jesus Christ, he told the crowd. We can lift up our hands to worship God, but if the tithes are still in your pockets, then due tribute has not been given. Then our praise are empty. There is no value to back it up."

The above is false teaching that cannot be found anywhere in the Bible. The scripture "Whatsoever a man sows, that shall he also reap"(Gal:6:7) is often manupilated and used by these preachers when begging for your money. However in context this particular scripture has NOTHING TO DO WITH MONEY but everything to do with death & life. The following verse says,"For he that sows to his flesh, shall of the flesh reap corruption, but he that sows to the spirit, shall of the spirit reap life everlasting". But modern preachers like Kong Hee, PG & his pastors often preached to convince their members the more you give, up to a hundred-fold return you will received. Isn't this "giving to get" a greedy giving.

Some members of the City Harvest Church spoke of pastor Kong Hee as been a good role model and looked upon as their 'spiritual father'. Can this statement be correct when Kong Hee permits and supported his wife's ambition to be international pop star who sings worldly songs dressing up and dancing provocatively to the audiences. Did not the Bible tells us to be unstained from the world. What would have people, especially non believers think of the Pastor when they see his wife who lived and behaved no differently from a sinful & an unrighteous world? By this, is he been a good role model to witness for Christ? Honestly,this would instead turn many, many away from Christ.

The way I see it, members of the CHC and other Charismatic Pentecostal churches grows not because of the conviction from the Word of God, but from the lively musics & songs played by a rock band on stage that resembled like a pop concert. Its like a weekend kind of "religious entertainment" and thus will attract many young people.

Seriously today, the pastors being leaders of the church are the ones that are damaging & destroying true christianity and the Word of God. Even the flock that lacked any spiritual discernment can be so dumbed to believe and follow whatever they say, wtihout questioning if its right or wrong. Imagine the scandals of CHC being exposed to the world, what a SHAME.

JESUS CHRIST WAS RIGHT WHEN HE SAID, " WILL I FIND FAITH WHEN I RETURNED".

Anonymous said...

SINGAPORE - Not only was $24 million allegedly siphoned from City Harvest Church (CHC) in sham bond deals, but $26.6 million more was diverted and circulated to cover the tracks in an elaborate ploy.

The prosecution laid out this case against CHC founder Kong Hee and four other people in court yesterday, a day after the Commissioner of Charities (COC) disclosed financial irregularities at the church.
................................................

I think the handwrting is on the wall of CC.SP- they are going to be at your door soon.So do what errant preachers do best- start producing your audit produced by one of your yes men - and hide your money trail.

Anonymous said...

What's wrong in asking all the Christian Churches to be MORE TRANSPARENT in their financial governance? Are there things to hide ??? Just like City Harvest !!!

If we don't learn from City Harvest, history will repeat !

Anonymous said...

Dear Bloggers,
Please do not presume Kong Hee and the four of them are guilty until the court say so. CHC came out with the statement that the church is not cheated by the five and stand by them. Important thing is that we have to wait till the trial and outcome of the judgement. Please do not pass judgement before the outcome, if we do, then we Christians are no better than the world. The right thing to do is not to speculate but pray for justice to prevail.

Rational Minded

Anonymous said...

.....the offence is with regards to the misappropriation of the money with the intent to deceive, regardless of whether subsequent attempts at restitution have or have not been made by the accused.....

CHARITIES (INSTITUTIONS OF A PUBLIC CHARACTER)
REGULATIONS 2007
Duty to donors
8.—(1) An institution of a public character conducting a fundraising appeal shall ensure that —
(a) any information provided to donors or to the general public is accurate and not misleading;

Kong's wife, Ho Yeow Sun's "Double Lifestyles" in the US and in Singapore is quite SHOCKING!

Anonymous said...

Rational Minded,
That's what the 'judge not' followers and yes man leaders did - they did not pass judgement. And so Kong Hee continued to put his wife above all else and so she went deeper into showbiz under guise of some 'crossover project'. Can any rational mind keep a 'righteous' silence over her lewd dancing and the lavish lifestyle. She is actually leading the youth to cross into the world not to Christ.Now unless Kong Hee can prove beyond shadow of doubt that he is totally innocent, the world won't believe in his innocence regardless of the hearing outcome. Count acquital even if it happens is not vindication if it is unable to clear all doubts. It's important that church leaders not only be honest but through accountability and transparency be seen as honest and trustworthy.

You should have spoken up 10 years ago and tell City Harvest not to judge the brother who question the use of church funds and was presured to apologise and 'repent'. Then Kong Hee would not now have to stand before a judge.

Anonymous said...

"Pastors are mere mortals"! Read the article in the Sunday Star today on page 23.

The final line says all: 'The faithful should stand firm in their belief in God, but they must not be afraid to question or even challenge their religious leaders if they are wrong.'

So sad that 7 reinstated members in CC and also 400 members had been axed because they stood up for truth, transparency and good governance by the modern day Hitler in CC!

Anonymous said...

Not guilty in law does not mean innocent . It just mean prosecution had not prove beyond reasonable doubt. I repeat: Not guilty in law does not mean innocent.

Servant of God should be blameless in first place-see Bible. If Kong Hee is innocence, he should say so openly. Why not, because his trust is not in God but in human(his paid Lawyers/advisers).

Please ask honest godly theologian what does "Do not judge/God be the judge" ACTUALLY mean. If a thief stole from you, will you not make a judgement whether to call the Police? If everyone apply "do not judge" in all situation, our streets will not be safe and world war 3 will be happen immediately. Criminal will said "please Do not judge me because your Bible said so". I think "do not judge" had been quoted out of context by half-baked pastor nowsday to hide things!

Anonymous said...

re: megachurches

The addiction to "BIG is better" theory
is so tempting. Put it straight, big church is not necessary superior to smaller church.

The are church out there who deliberately want to keep it small in numbers, so they can minister effectively to members. Once the church reach 100 people(for example), they start another small church with new pastor. If not possible, they will ask members to attend others local church which they cooperate. They will not squeeze members for fund to create megachurch building because the pastor said "God told me in my dream". Real servant of God do not put heavy yoke on its sheeps. Only the hated pharisees did this and Jesus is mad with them in Bible.

Benefits of small churches are, among others: Pastors know each member by names and able to attend to their need individually.

Why do we want small class for our children? For the same reason! Parent will ask Private school how big is the class, which is valid question. Small class mean teacher can focus on individual need better. Why this do not apply to churches?

One mainstream local church I know had only less than hundred members and they are happy. Members look forward to going to church, fellowship over church provided free foods, camps, etc. Nationally, their denomination had more than 250,000 active members. Still they are small church because their emphasis is on God people. Not building or just numbers.

I am just a struggling Christian looking from outside what is happening today. Hope my 2 cents opinion help.

Anonymous said...

After the church camp 2012, SK describes the camp as an astounding success. His choice of adjectives is commendable.

The following as an educated guess based on the photo in CN.

There were about 290 at the camp. Less approximately 50 youngsters and kids and another 15 pastors and church staff, leaves only about 225 others.

No wonder on the Sunday a day before the camp, PG was still appealing to the church for last minute signing ups.

Anonymous said...

Our focus on church numbers as only measure of success is damaging. The corporate world manipulated numbers to gain self-interest. Unfortunately, this tactics also creep into churches.

Anonymous said...

re: What is spiritual abuse

Spiritual abuse is an umbrella term primarily describing three different kinds of harmful acts: (1) mistreatment: a person in spiritual authority mistreating another person; (2) manipulation: the use of religious words or acts to manipulate someone for personal gain or control; and (3) Scripture twisting: any intentional misuse of Scripture in order to twist the truth. Works of a spiritual nature can look noble, virtuous and inspiring, however, as the old saying goes, "Looks can be deceiving." Or, to quote Proverbs 16:2 (NIV): "All a person's ways seem pure to them, but motives are weighed by the LORD."

Let speak out against Spiritual Abuse of any kinds.

Anonymous said...

Rational Minded,
CH members certaintly don't believe in judging anyone at all esp if it concerns the Pastor who in their eyes can do no wrong. And so therefore Sun Ho's lewd dancing and lavish lifestyle cannot be all wrong because Kong Hee says she is trying to reach out to the youth. So CH and the members close their eyes to the lewd dance - I see nothing and I hear nothing, and to others they say don't you dare judge or else you'll be judged. And so it had to came to this and they still say don't you dare judge.

Yes boss, semuanya okay. I see nothing, I hear nothing.


Posted by Anonymous to Calvary Today at July 1, 2012 2:25 PM

Anonymous said...

But modern preachers like Kong Hee, PG & his pastors often preached to convince their members the more you give, up to a hundred-fold return you will received. Isn't this "giving to get" a greedy giving.

............................

Think we should also consider the other side of the coin as well.

Those Calvarites and those in CHC who might also be "giving to get"... are also ALL guilty and greedy people!

SO, who's to be blamed now?! The Pastors? The people?

Maybe at the end, all also becomes 'same same'. Quite 'sickening' isn't it?!


Posted by Anonymous to Calvary Today at July 1, 2012 3:20 PM

Anonymous said...

A good excerpt taken from The Star newspaper today in relation to CHC and also regarding pastors/religious leaders in general:

"Although we should allow the trial to take its course and wait for the verdict, it is clear that in the court of public opinion, the people view politicians and government officials in a totally different light from religious figures. Caught in a similar situation, most people would have found the former guilty from day one, but not the religious figures.

Many are reluctant to accept that religious figures are also mere mortals. They can put on their religious garb but they are still sinful human beings with their own frailties. In some cases, they come across as just plain greedy and selfish.

In the worst category are those religious figures who interpret the holy books to justify their political ambitions in the name of God. Many of the faithful are caught in a dilemma when they assume that disagreeing with these human beings means questioning God. Nothing could be more wrong.


The faithful should stand firm in their belief in God, but they must not be afraid to question or even challenge their religious leaders if they are wrong."

SO, let us all be aware! Stand up to question and to challange the Pastors of Calvary Church in regards to their handling of the church finances/'Faith Promise' distributions to 'Missions', if needed!!

Now, anything wrong with doing all that?!


Posted by Anonymous to Calvary Today at July 1, 2012 4:42 PM

Anonymous said...

I just marveled at Singapore's law. They took 2 years to investigate the case. Brothers and sisters, what ever the outcome is, the truth will surface.

The sad part here in Malaysia is Calvary Church is NOT UNDER ANY GOVERNING LAW. SO THE SP AND GANG CAN JUST DO ANYTHING. EX 400 MEMBERS WHICH THEY DONT LIKE. AOG body dare not interfer.

Brothers and Sisters, i urged you to TOTT. And if possible publish this in the newspaper and leave the church.

Posted to Calvary Today on July 1, 2012 11:33 PM

Anonymous said...

In a church with enough pastoral staff,ones absence is noticeable because the Pastor knows you.In those days- if you were absent for 2 Sundays- someone will be at your door for house visitation.Do you know of any pastors who do house visitation these days? As one blogger wrote here- when he approached a certain pastor at CC to visit his ailing grandmother,he got the following answer-"I am busy all week- please ask someone else"[Of course if he had parked a Porsche outside- the answer may have been different.)
But in a mega church- its easy to blend into
the crowd.Nobody knows you.And the Pastor is very busy with fund raising for his building programmes.You only become relevant if you are beneficial in some way.
Look at CH-a clear example of prostituting the gospel.Nothing wrong with craving for money and recognition.But to be using Gods name,Waving a Bible,using the name of Jesus and fleecing those dumb sheep's money- is a shameful way to earn a living. Look at KH- that man is not even embarassed that his wife is scantilly dressed and does one of those sexual gyrations onstage.Minister of Christ? And to those who disagree- this verse is thrown out "Thou shalt not Judge".SP is no diffrent either.He is putting up the temple of mammon and dragged the church into debt. Someone ought to tell this demons off to their faces.Syabas to the Singapore authorities.I look foward to the day when SP will be officially investigated too.

Bamboo Conspiracy said...

Judgement? Will we witness the same for Calvary Church? Perhaps if the law does not, the Lord will vindicate!

I am in London and just heard that Senior Pastor of City Harvest has been arrested. What surprised me is that the majority of the congregation said they will continue to support him. Perhaps this will explain the situation in many churches that the average Christian thinks with his heart and not his head.

Vijay

Send from my IBM Thinkpad

Anonymous said...

We need more critical thinking christian(in a positive way) to clean the corruption in churches. Pray God will raise up more genuine theologian to guide Asian christian. The is a saying: "The British create the theology, the American deluded it, the Asian just copy it" Often we copy the worst part of it too!

If we need brain operation, we look for best and most experienced brain surgeon with years of training. This surgeon must been proven to be worthy of our money. They often have positive track records. Why we do not demand the same of our pastors, who input God words into our brain? Are they tested to be man of character, or just another charismatic personality who perform religious circus/magic on stage, which they claim are "miracle/dreams/visions from God"? And do they fed the sheeps with addictive spiritual junk? Are they proper theologically trained? Do they understand church governance and practice them? Do they preach the Christ-centred gospel? Or they just offer another "5 steps" to this and that, sweeten with out-of-context Bible verses and sell CD and books?

Even non-Christian can used God given mind to think and in so doing, some are more morally upright than Christian. They can see what is right and wrong.
God call us to love him with all our MIND, heart and soul. Not just our heart/emotion.

I came out of abusive church. The leader DEMAND that we obey them absolutely and do not think "too much". The leader control flow of information. Why? Because once he control the information and our mind, he control our life! Simple as that. To disobey the leaders IS to disobey God, they claim.

Even in Middle East, people get rid of dictators. But in churches we still allow too many dictators, or even "create" dictators whom we can follow.
Are Christian so weak that we need a dictators to guide us? Can't we think for ourselves?

Anonymous said...

Read the letter "Open your eyes to abuses" in the Star today on page 41.

Anonymous said...

re: Money Politic in church

Had a dinner with Property developer. He said his sibling attended a church in Damansara Height. He do not name the church, neither do I ask. I just listen....with embarassment as Christian.

He related that this Damansara Height church plan to send a junior pastor to his mother funeral for prayer. However, this church changed their mind when they realised his sibling donate lots of money and are rich family. Immediately, they send their senior pastor to say prayer.

He is angry because even at death, church leader still look at money. If you are rich, senior pastor said prayer for you, otherwise sorry, the junior pastor will do!

Do Jesus do this? He treate the poor and rich same. Wealth, power and status is irrelevant to Jesus.

Note: Our friend do not imply that church is CC. Neither have I attend CC before. I spoke as a Christian. I am pointing out the ugly money politic in church. It can happen in any church. He is sharing his anger at how Christian church treated his mother death.

Even he(a non-christian) know we should be respected as human in life and death, not based on money per se.

Anonymous said...

re: Money Politic in church

Forget to mentioned that the dinner with this Property developer was few years back during Chinese New Year.

My aims is not to pinpoint any church(because I do not know either which church he talk about); but to raise the ugly sides of church money politic, which can happen to any churches. Be on guard!

Anonymous said...

Christian rock music is of the world and unholy, its not true christianity. This "Hip Hop" popular music & dance Kong Hee's wife promote is unchristian and not of God. Watch the video from website how Kong Hee's wife a pastor herself performed & sang her song "China Wine". Its obscene and of the flesh and its satanic. Every true believer must stay away from these christian rock music, not even contemporary christian music for they are unholy & appeal only to the flesh. You must keep & hold the Word of God to be holy and unstained with them.

Its very clear that Kong Hee & wife are false prophets. They may preach "christ" but its NOT the true Jesus Christ of the Bible, but a "false christ " that compromises with the world.

Anonymous said...

"City Harvest Church (CHC) has thrown its weight behind its founder Kong Hee and four other key members who were charged Wednesday over alleged misuse of the charity’s funds.

In a statement released by executive pastor Aries Zulkarnain on Thursday evening, the church stated that it is standing by the five individuals." ~ excerpt from Singapore news.

Does this mean that so many Christians think this Kong Hee, Wife & Company are all NOT guilty?

WoW!

What if the courts later on, find them guilty? (or the point for the courts to even bother to even waste time and resources, to initiate a charge against them..).

Does that mean that the legal courts are all wrong then?

I totally and honestly don't get this 'religion' now..., or seem to be able to see who this 'God' of theirs is, or truly represents.. then.


Posted by Anonymous to Calvary Today at July 2, 2012 2:45 AM

Anonymous said...

"For a time is coming when people will no longer listen to sound and wholesome teaching. They will follow their own desires and will look for teachers who will tell them whatever their itching ears want to hear. They will reject the truth and chase after myths."
~ 2 Timothy 4:3-4 New Living Translation (NLT)

Could this now be so true?!

"Calvary Today", you might be on to something even bigger than you had initially thought or have set out to do.

I tremble.

But I pray that you might also accomplish it! Continue on to keep all this up please!! ~ For the love of God.


Posted by Anonymous to Calvary Today at July 2, 2012 5:52 AM

Anonymous said...

I hope the web master will control the flow of comments. Because last few comments made are truly out of context to the topic.

Who really cares how some pastor's wife sings or dances or how she dresses!?!

The comments posted are beginning to bore us readers unless some kind of real action is taken. Otherwise, it's like reading the sunday comics or just a fanfare magazine. For people posting comments asking other people to take action or to 'throw the first stone' or asking people to 'TOTT'.. then why don't you just do it yourself?!

Also there is a comment which keeps on repeating the point that 400 plus members of CC are being 'sacked'. Please, just let these people complain or take further action on their own part or let them just move on if they choose so. Upon further investigation, this point also proves questionable as the church says they are just 'dormant members' and hence the register is actually being 'updated' or cleared up to reflect a better/clearer picture on the membership records.

Furthermore, perhaps there are actually only a handful of readers of this blog, and most comments here are just posted by the same person / or a few same persons over and over again.

What is of concern here is money being stolen by a pastor/church leader. Hope the authorities will put such people and anyone who does all this behind jail.

I want to continue on reading this Calvary Today blog.. and I am beginning to find it slowly to also becoming quite 'sickening'.. unless, a more proper regulation on the comments posted can be done. Some comments and articles posted on this blog are really good, but also don't wonder if not many people want to follow this blog seriously now.. unless some of the things suggested above have been promptly dealt with.


Posted by Anonymous to Calvary Today at July 2, 2012 11:30 PM

My view said...

Responbse to Anonymous to Calvary Today at July 2, 2012 11:30 PM

Yoy say, "Who really cares how some pastor's wife sings or dances or how she dresses!?!"

IIt's because, we all have this WHO CARES attitude that today, the pastor's wife has become world famous for the wrong reasons and has become a shame to Christianity.

You say, "The comments posted are beginning to bore us readers "

I think this blog is not to entertain people but to warn people of abusive pastors who are out to get rich from bluffing and cheating peopole's money so that they can get set around in style.

You say, "For people posting comments asking other people to take action or to 'throw the first stone' or asking people to 'TOTT'.. then why don't you just do it yourself?!"

This blog allows anyone to give suggestions. It is from these suggestions that many have taken action. TOTT is one good suggestion from a reader which many are doing now. More and more poeple are following. Those who want to throw stones may have already thrown their stones but they are not letting you know yet.

You say, "Upon further investigation, this point also proves questionable as the church says they are just 'dormant members' and hence the register is actually being 'updated' or cleared up to reflect a better/clearer picture on the membership records."

You have just caused that church staff to add one more sin of lying. The 400 who were axed were faithful members who decided to VOTE FOR THE EM ACCOUNTS TO BE GIVEN AT AGM. How can they be dormant members. The 7 plaintiffs were active at the AGMs. What about the case where they axed the wife but not the husband? Parents were axed but their teenage children are still there? The truth is, I have friends who have left CC and are members of other churches even before this saga began and their names are still in CC. Why??? because they never attend AGM to vaote or make noise. Their names are there to make up the numbers.

You say, "there are actually only a handful of readers of this blog"

Look at the dots on the visitors map. You are telling us a few people fly all over the world just to log in? Don't forget to checkout CalvaryToday also. There are even more dots there.

You say, this blog is "becoming quite 'sickening'"

I agree, the things that we are reading about is really sickening. The pastors who we trusted all these years are worst than the worst boss in the secular world. The cheating pastors are everywhere, and it's sickening to know that there are people who still defend them.

Anonymous said...

I agree with everything you said 7-3-2012 9:03 a.m. And you have a commendable Christian spirit. If people can open their spiritual eyes and ears they will realize that we are living in the last days the Bible spoke about. Expect things to get worse and not better as the shaking and judgment continues in the House of God. God is separating out the liars, hypocrites, and thieves who masquerade as His anointed ministers. Satan is alive and well strutting his evil deeds in our faces. The Bible warns us about false shepherds who think about themselves instead of caring for God's sheep. Be warned people and don't be fooled by the wolves in sheep clothing!!!

Anonymous said...

Replying to Anony. July 2 ,11.30pm who said "who really cares how a pastor's wife sing or dances or how she dresses". Maybe you don't care, but God cares. What if your own son or daughter supports this kind of a lifestyle and copy her behaviour to sing and dance like her. YOU DON'T CARE?? Also, please if you think the comments are boring to you, feel free to stop reading.

Well said blogger of "My View said.." against this blogger. I had left CC even before this CC saga was exposed. I am a voting member. When I checked with the person in charge of membership in CC, I found my name is still there and immediately told her to struck my name off the list as I do not want them to used is to make up for their numbers.

Anonymous said...

"I came out of abusive church. The leader DEMAND that we obey them absolutely and do not think "too much". The leader control flow of information. Why? Because once he control the information and our mind, he control our life! Simple as that. To disobey the leaders IS to disobey God, they claim."

Corrupt leaders need to have total control and do not want you to think. PG once told the congregation to park their brains outside before entering the sanctuary. Don't think, don't analyze, don't ask questions, don't doubt your leaders, they are put there by God for your good. Just trust them. If they do wrong God will deal with them. It is not your job to bring them to account. PG once said that he was accountable only to God.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous July 2, 2012 11:30

"...Who really cares how some pastor's wife sings or dances or how she dresses"

Yeah right, as long as it is not our wives or CC leaders wives, so who cares what the world thinks of the body of Christ. Now I know why the City Harvest scandal has been highlighted on this blog - it is to remind readers like you the consequences of a "who really cares" attitute.


Posted by Anonymous to Calvary Today at July 3, 2012 9:26 AM

Anonymous said...

Look at KH- that man is not even embarassed that his wife is scantilly dressed and does one of those sexual gyrations onstage.Minister of Christ?
.........................................
Comment on the above

Now why would the pASTOR be embarassed about his wife? There is so much $$$$$$ to be raked in!! Where else can you get easy money like that? From stupid church people- of course!! Ministers of Christ?? haha!! Hip Hop dances used to be a feature of the night clubs.Very Hot.But now its done in a church on stage-and the dancer is the Pastors wife and he is proud of it!!Wow!!!! hellelulah!!!

SP must be busy hiding his personal money trail by now.If I were him,I would just pack and and leave.

Anonymous said...

My teenage Youth were extremely DIGUSTED and HORIFIED with her "Appearance as A Music Pastor" on the numerous Music VIDEOS on Youtube!
They felt SHOCKED to read the Public Prosecutor's "Facts of Case" as appeared in the numerous Singapore online News on the ALLEGED CBT!

They also expressly felt deeply CHEATED by their Pastors in their Lounge Suits from Calvary Church. "Similar Facts Evidence" of "Alleged CBT committed" within Calvary Church!

As Parents I Noticed and I do Cared about the Negative Images "she as A Music Pastor" projected to Our Teenage children and Youths throughout the WORLD beyond Singapore and Malaysia !

Anonymous said...

Isaiah 3:14
The Lord will enter into judgment with the elders and princes of his people: “It is you who have devoured the vineyard,the spoil of the poor is in your houses.
.........................................

Anonymous said...

Now why would the pASTOR be embarassed about his wife/
...........................................
I felt extremely disgusted after seeing the Pastor KOng Hee's wife in China Wine.Why cant this couple just start a nightclub and do whatever they want instead of behaving like this on a Church stage? What is going on in their heads? Dont they have any sense of shame?

What is happening to church Pastors these days? What is the source of their problem? Is it only money or is they some other thing that are craving for? And how can church peopel just blindly follow this so called pastors? Its just just so downright stupid!!! Dont the sheep ever think???

Anonymous said...

CHINA WINE
I went to Youtube to see what is China Wine all about. Let me warn you, it is not about wine tasting or how to select wines from the vineyards of China.

Its pretty hot stuff and its hard to imagine that this is the pastors wife hip swaying the stage. And she is using this to bring others to Christ?

Caution to Parents- make sure your children are in bed before viewing this.Disgraceful state of affairs!!!The end is nigh!!

Anonymous said...

Why cant this couple just start a nightclub and do whatever they want instead of behaving like this on a Church stage? What is going on in their heads? Dont they have any sense of shame?
.........................................

Well they cant raise easy money from pub goers are not easily fooled and because they know by instinct whoever dances like that must be a lustful pig.But only in church- they can convince others that they are spiritual people- and can bring out the offering bags!!Yeah!All that we have the church gave it to us freely!!

Anonymous said...

We indeed live in different times. There are good Christians leading exemplary lives, but it seems for some, the 10 commandments aren’t enough. I have two more good ones to suggest.

11. Thou shalt be merciful to thy critics. Lend them a listening ear, and reflect.
12. Thou shalt be truthful, accountable and transparent to not only Me, but also thy church and congregation.

This twelfth commandment is more appropriate to the likes of SP and Pastor Con Thee, ooops sorry, Kong Hee.

Anonymous said...

Beside CC scandal, we need to be careful about teaching from Prosperity gospel, word of faith, "give to get" mentality, etc; which creep into churches nowsday. This heretics teaching mostly from USA had been discredited. Some of their pastors had already gone to jail and came out telling people they are wrong. I think Jim Baker had repent and tell people how wrong he was. Sadly, only after he came out from jail! Imagine how many lifes had been damaged, hurt, confused, backslided, etc. All because mature Christian keep quiet!

A German lutheran pastor, Dietrich Bonhoeffer opposed Hilter. What happen? He was executed. 6 millions jews was massacred by Hilter. The other Christian in Germany keep quiet. My German friend say, because of Christian silence during Nazi, the Germans public loss respect for the church after WW2. Another German figure, Martin Luther 500++ years ago speak up against church corruption. He too, was threaten with death. The are cost to pay for exposing dictators and corruption. In Middle East, people paid with life and blood!

We must continue to create awareness, raising issues which can destroy any church. We should be more worry about corruption in church. Church history told us any churches, institution or countries collapse because of decay from inside.

No one should escape check and balance.
Yonggi Cho too was under investigation because his church elders complain he used church money to help his son. Can check this on news.

Where we go from here? Expose evils in church and create awareness. But we must carry this duty discreetly, check the facts and be truthfully ourselves.

Anonymous said...

My friend teen daughter too was horrified when watching "China wine"(Ho Sun video). She ask what is that different to Madonna/other seductive singer? Regarding clothing, it is quite subjective issues. But Bible do mentioned we need to dress modestly. Whether Ho Sun dress modestly is for individual to decide. I think personally, her dress sense is bad and indecent. That is just my personal opinion.

That raise the question of whether christian should dress like call girls to reach out to call girls. in the name of "be relevant to society or seeker sensitive"?? Does the end justified the mean?

If she is pastor wife, then the dressing sense is even more relevant.
If you apply for the office of pastor, moral character is very important, compare to if you apply other type of jobs. Because christian do expect pastor, his wife and family to set moral character and decency. Rightly so! If Pastor can not handle is own family/wife, how he handle others and set example?

Anonymous said...

To the person who wrote : "Who really cares....."
Now with the many quick responses to your silly comment, do you still think only a handful are reading this blog? Don't presume.

Anonymous said...

Specially To the Anon of 9:03am, and all the subsequent comments made thereafter (probably also by that same person.. or those in 'support' of it)

"Who really cares how some pastor's wife sings or dances or how she dresses!?!"

We fully support the person who made that statement.

What/which is more important? To 'look/appear decent' but is deceitful inside your heart, OR not putting on any garments of pretence and coming just as you are to Christ?

Christ died for us all, because He loves us for who we are.

If you've missed this point, you've also probably missed the entire reason why Christ died for you.

The dots on the visitors map shown on the blog does not honestly represent that the blog has many followers. It is more like a cumulative historical data from the location hits on the blog (the blog being on the www, so it's not too surprising), but this also not necessary mean many may support the blog or take it seriously.

In regards to the 400 people,.. so many.. (therefore surely) hopefully we readers can allow them speak out for them themselves or hear about so kind of class action initiaive and not only from you?

Also, such narrow minded comments certainly might make people also to treat this blog like the 'sunday comics' even more so now. Surely there is Hope for every 'dress style' and 'hair-do' in this world to know this true and living God. And this we are certain that God's love covers them all and IS for ALL.

We are not saying that we support this 'Kong Hee' or more importantly to anyone using name of church and God to own ends!

Finally, God loves you too.. even probably to your own 2 x 2 hair-do and dress style.


Posted by Anonymous to Calvary Today at July 3, 2012 2:55 PM

Anonymous said...

"KUALA LUMPUR: A cleaner was jailed six months by the Magistrate's Court Tuesday after she pleaded guilty to dishonestly keeping the purse of a salesgirl on Sunday." - The Star newspapers today.

Wonder how long will the jail sentence be for people who steal from Churches, or charity funds??

Anybody know the answer?

Probably it's ok when a 'christian', or anyone claiming to have 'special knowledge of God' to do it!

Certainly, if being just a cleaner, would not qualify.


Posted by Anonymous to Calvary Today at July 3, 2012 6:53 PM

Nobody,nobody but me said...

Because of calvarytoday......
I discover the followings:-

Prince Guneratnam was sacked from
Lake Club

Prince Guneratnam was sighted at
Sun Complex

Prince Guneratnam transfered funds to
his personal ministry

Prince Guneratnam office and house was
raided by IRD

Prince Guneratnam's wife handbag with
US10,000 cash missing in UK

Prince Guneratnam change Calvary Church
consituition

Prince Guneratnam personal ministry,
CIM was deregistered from NECF

Prince Guneratnam under declare his
income tax

Prince Guneratnam axed his deacon

Prince Guneratnam axed 400 members

Prince Guneratnam is a liar

This blog expose Prince Guneratnam
He thought nobody can touch him.

Nobody,nobody but me
Calvarytoday,calvarytoday and me

Anonymous said...

"What/which is more important? To 'look/appear decent' but is deceitful inside your heart, OR not putting on any garments of pretence and coming just as you are to Christ?"

What a totally nonsensical and irrelevant comment to the issue. So you think the lewd dancing as in China Wine on you tube is okay and a good testimony that will draw people to Christ? Maybe you can organise such dances in your church and repeat your above quote to anyone who objects. Duh !

Anonymous said...

You can deceive yourself to think that few people follow this blog. But does it matter to us?

Even if it's just me reading, I'm glad I did because I'm wiser with my money now. No more giving to CCC building fund or faith promise fund anymore.

And I am one of the 400 axed member and I did not write the other comments and it really does not matter whether you believe me or not because I will still continue reading CT.

Anonymous said...

To understand the modus operandi of PG, Kong Hee & all these Prosperity Gospel (PG) pastors better, just read the article entitled "CULTWATCH - How Pastors Get Rich" at :-

http://www.cultwatch.com/HowPastorsGetRich.html

After reading it, you will realised that everything that PG, Kong Hee & all these Prosperity Gospel (PG) pastors have been doing is exactly (more or less) as described in the said article. Hopefully after reading the said article, you will be wiser.

Prov. 9:9 - Give instructions to a wise man, & he will be yet wiser; teach a just man, & he will increase in learning.

As for those who are still in CC (& CHC) out of fear, you need to check whether your fear is of man or of God. PG, Kong Hee & all these Prosperity Gospel (PG) pastors have been brainwashing you to fear them, the only one you should fear is God not man; wake up my brothers & sisters before it is too late!

Prov. 9:10 - The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, & the knowledge of the Holy One is understanding.

Anonymous said...

Anyone who used others or God himself by claiming the name of God should be exposed, irrespective which church. Even non-christian believed this is wrong! We have duty of care to protect ourselves and others from harm of abusive leaders.

The abusive leader had one aim, to control and used others for own interest. They will create lots of seemingly good acts to cover the tracks or as deflection. Someone said, if you want to do evil unnoticed, join a religion. Or, if you want to be rich, start a religion. Does not matter what religion! Because the are bound to be vulnerable/weak people who will follow them...Some just need to be leaded. Even lead by the blinds...or wicked people. It is strange but true.

Suggest that those harm by abusive leaders to form a group, which duties is to help those victim of abuses and create awareness in society. Our "don't care attitude" and put thing under carpet is over. This is 21st century. The world had move on to expose many evils leaders and bring them to justice. We should do like wise.

Anonymous said...

Would a CEO in the secular world allow or have a wife who dances and gyrates her hips in sexy outfits? He will have a lot to answer for to the directors and shareholders!

And men who claims to be man-of-God are supposed to have a higher standard of morality. Their eyes are open but they do not see anything except the $$$$. These supposedly anointed ones will never surrender their luxurious life styles e.g. David Yonggi Cho, PG and now the latest headline grabbing pastor.

Anonymous said...

re: why check and balance?

God put in this world, institutions and system to administer justice. That maybe the govt, court, police, special investigative bodies, etc. Imperfect they maybe, this are instruments God mirror his justice. The distortion came when these organs are corrupted and incompetent.

Even the richest man, Bill Gates is subject to scrutiny by Justice Department of North America and European regulating committee. They are rules he need to be compliant to.

In religious institutions, like churches-they are independent(hopefully really independent & doing their jobs) or separate governance committee to help pastor run the church. The problem arise when: "Harap pagar, pagar makan padi", mean we hope these guys do their jobs but instead they breach our trust.

I think most religious institution are aware of this. However, when power is centralised on one person or small group of inner circles, that can be very dangerous!

Anonymous said...

To the person who wrote : "Who really cares....."
Now with the many quick responses to your silly comment, do you still think only a handful are reading this blog? Don't presume.

Posted by Anonymous to Calvary Today 2 at July 3, 2012 4:37 PM
''''''''''''''''''''

"What/which is more important? To 'look/appear decent' but is deceitful inside your heart, OR not putting on any garments of pretence and coming just as you are to Christ?"

What a totally nonsensical and irrelevant comment to the issue. So you think the lewd dancing as in China Wine on you tube is okay and a good testimony that will draw people to Christ? Maybe you can organise such dances in your church and repeat your above quote to anyone who objects. Duh !

Posted by Anonymous to Calvary Today 2 at July 3, 2012 9:39 PM
........................

The same person who has written all this (and even more comments made by that same person here on this blog) is definitely too immature!

Does he/she really think that a ‘Swan Lake’-type or dance on tuxedo outfit will draw everyone to Jesus Christ?!!

This person is really living in a false bubble, and certainly not exposed to the realities of life. Thank God for caring enough for us and his everlasting love towards us all irregardless of background/culture, to die for our sins and make a way of reconciliation for us all to go to heaven.

The person posting all that seems to be more interested in 'attacking' fellow readers who put in comments on this blog. I hope the web-master will be able to exercise more concern when regulating comments received. To some people, putting in comments probably becomes just a channel for them to 'feel important or being heard' when their comments have been posted out. Perhaps in real life they are probably mere ‘nobodies’.

However, such comments from these people can also become quite 'sickening' to read. In fact, reading these comments (also all probably the other many comments also being made by that same 'sick' person) becomes borderline revolting. He not only pushes down views and comments down our throats, not even realizing it may just be a 'nonsensical hearsay' of his own only.

Still, I am reminded that Christ also died for this 2 x 2 hair-do stoic dressed individual who has posted all these so many comments of his own as well.
I have tried to read this blog with an open mind and the comments posted and tried also to be won by the concerns raised. Also at the same time, try to provide some inputs.
Let’s try to stick good constructive comments to the actual topic posted. Otherwise, this entire blog and also the comments section are probably just become like ‘fun and games only’, and really has no teeth whatsoever. Maybe CC and all those in charge also know this and hence cannot take this blog & comments section too seriously anymore.

Posted by Anonymous to Calvary Today at July 4, 2012 1:54 AM

Anonymous said...

I read on a blog somewhere in Singapore where someone ( likely from City Harvest) objected to 'outsiders' who don't belong or contributed money to CH making comments and thought that they should mind their own busoness. My response to that is that when the shit hits the fan, the whole body of Christ gets it, whether from CH or not. The whole world will pour scorn at Christians and churches worldwide not just CH. The 'outsiders' will mind their own business if CH can contain or isolate the negative responses and scorn of non believers to within their 4 walls. Otherwise it's also the 'outsiders' business.

Anonymous said...

SK - THE LIAR

Lately SK made a statement about the church Camp- "It was an astounding success"-. Everyone knows it was not an astounding success as there were still last minute appeals from the pulpit to the young people to join.

What was irksome was the expression on his face- IT WAS AN ASTOUNDING SUCCESS!!!" it was said in a natural sort of way..

CC' pulpit is smeared with lies and it was SP who started the Crap.

Anonymous said...

Also how can the 'outsiders' not comment on City Harvest if the scandal affects christians generally and cause many to doubt and stumble. Now can anyone still say it's non of our business just because we did not contribute money to CH ? Even the going ons in CC is every christian's business.

Anonymous said...

Quote: " Does he/she really think that a ‘Swan Lake’-type or dance on tuxedo outfit will draw everyone to Jesus Christ?!!"

What is this muddled up guy talking about? Just watch China Wine on Youtube ( part of C Harvest's crossover project to draw the youths to Christ ) and then comment. Nothing to do with Swan Lake. Another nonsensical statement.
Also read this of someone's comment mentioned above and think rationally : " Would a CEO in the secular world allow or have a wife who dances and gyrates her hips in sexy outfits? He will have a lot to answer for to the directors and shareholders! And men who claims to be man-of-God are supposed to have a higher standard of morality."

God definitely loves Sun Ho , Kong Hee or PG and everyone else. But He does not condone our sins and wrongs, unless you belong to the radical grace school where confession of sin and repentance takes backstage.

To you who said " who really cares ", you can love it and watch it all you want. We care but we can't stop you!

Anonymous said...

I think Ho Sun dressing and acting issues had already sufficiently been discussed. We should move on to refocus on transparency, accountability, check & balance issues.

Will be good to set up a group with aim to create more awareness on church check and balance issues. That will help not only CC but all churches. Maybe you can link to overseas group who already had such experience dealing with abusive church/leaders.

Those who had been hurt/abused by churches. Do get help if neccessary e.g., counselling. To avoid been bitter, we need to forgive. But forgiveness do not mean we do nothing to correct the injustice and abuse. We should continue to expose corruptions in churches. But for our sake, be watchful that we do not become bitter.

Anonymous said...

I read on a blog somewhere in Singapore where someone ( likely from City Harvest) objected to 'outsiders' who don't belong or contributed money to CH making comments and thought that they should mind their own busoness.
..............................................

A comment here.

Maybe the Church should not comment on Hitler, Stalin & Pol Pot for their mass slaughters because we are in fact outsiders and belong to a different race,religion and culture.Its also akin to saying that you should not denounce rape since you have not been raped.After all we are outsiders.Such is the utter stupidity of church folks these days.Its reasoning like this,that people like SP are still around.Wake up stupid- was SP crucified for you or were you baptized in SP's Mighty Name???????????? Love you very much in Christ.A fellow Christian.

The 6th Columnists.

Anonymous said...

The Singapore Charity Act and the Penal Code are and were enforced to uphold " Truth, Transparency, Good governance, Stewardship and Accountability " for all Churches and other Religious , Social and Charitable oriented organisations !
The Public Prosecutor FACTS of CASE are Explicitly Clear and Air Tight to secure Criminal Convictions on all Charges for all the 5 Defendants !
The MORAL Lifestyles of the defendants & their families are NEVER on TRIAL in the Singapore Court of Law !

Anonymous said...

ON CHINA WINE

We are a small village church.Our church thought that the pastor of CHC was caught drunk on some intoxicating wine from China and made a fool of himself. We know that sometimes , Pastors are caught with their pants down(sic!!)So as a church we prayed tohetger for him. Only yesterday, our pastor informed us that this was not a wine problem but refused to elaborate.

Only today,some of checked out China Wine - and what it was all about.......AND MY ..OMG..OH..OH BROTHERRRRRRRR!!!!OH NO!!!!!!!!

Anonymous said...

God Bless all the bloggers here.Our family are learning so much from other Christians even though all issues may not concern CC.Still we are learning a lot.Thanks to the bloggers- we are more careful with our money.We only give to worthy causes now.May the God of all Grace be with us. --vg- Keep up the good work!!!

Anonymous said...

Here are some bullet points about tithing that these $$$ hungry pastors don't want you to know:

The New Testament Church did not tithe.
The New Testament does not teach tithing for Christians.
Their favorite Malachi verses cannot be used for Christians since Christians are not under the law of Moses.
Abraham's one off tithe of his war booty did not set up a precedent for Christians to regularly tithe their income.
The version of tithing they teach cannot be found in Scripture.
The "Storehouse" in Malachi cannot be equated to your local church organization.
There are plenty of rich (with $$$) Christians who do not tithe. This would be impossible if the pastors version of tithing was true.
The New Testament teaching is that you decide how much to give, and there are no rules about where it goes. You cannot be compelled to give.

My Dearest Brethren, listen to what I have to say!!! If you are struggling to feed your family or buy them clothes, then understand that you do not need to give to the church.You can still do so if you choose, but you should not feel under compulsion since your family is more important.Also understand that if you are poor then that does not mean God is cursing you, or that you have done something wrong; this is an erroneous teaching these AOG Pastors promote to guilt you into giving.Remember,your duty is to your family first.If anyone does not provide for his relatives, and especially for his immediate family, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever. - 1 Timothy 5:8

Don't be made to feel guilty about not giving.This "made to feel guilty"is very prominent in CC right now. We cant hear of one single sermon at CC these days without a money appeal in it.That salesman does it best for SP.

Anonymous said...

Generally AOG churches wonderful on the outside but on the inside are very manipulating.SP is not alone in this category.The Pastors are very subtle to influence you into joining their group.But really,they are after your obedience,your time and your money.
Usually because the church members were around for you during a very low period of the persons life- the person becomes attached to the church-from then on the dominating influence of the Pastor sets in.If the Pastor welcomes you-then all the members welcome you too.If the Pastor axes you with no accountability and no one questions him- then most probably,you are a member of a cult without knowing it.

But it is not easy to shake off a preachers influence-after all you have been there many years.

God has given you a sound mind.Think.Reflect.Dont fall for all the preachers Crap.Its very dangerous because his manipulative AOG Crap is mixed with Gods Word.That's why all believers must pray for discernment.When the Pastor makes a passionate $$$ appeal and somehow you feel guilty- Resist- this is another one of his mind games into making you part with your money.The AOG Rev's conscience has been dead for a long time now.

Don't do anything until you have gone home,and prayed over it.Throw all the Pledge Cards into the dustbin- because thats where it belongs.When an AOG Pastor asks you to pledge- the Pastor will say that its between you and God. But if later you fail, you will get a phonecall from the church staff reminding you of your pledge to God.These are the deceivers and they are not ashamed of their shameful ways.

Stay tuned to the Holy Spirit within and He will guide you into all things.This is an assurance from Scriptures for all believers.Thats why private devotions are imperative for Christians everywhere.Don't fall for the pastors Crap-especially SP's.God Bless You.

Anonymous said...

So much $$$ to be spent on a single building? What is SP trying to prove? What is rather surprising is that he has managed to duck all the questions relating to CIM and has survived!!! Any other man with a minimum of self respect would have owned up to his monkey tricks and offer himself to be investigated in relation to the money transfers to CIM through the back door. From what I hear-even the Accountant has resigned and thrown in the towel.I guess his conscience was bothering him.God bless that man.

SP- thank you for refusing to meet Dr.Lum but instead issuing him with an excommuniation letter.This episode is not about you only. It concerns the whole of the AOG attitude which demands complete and unquestioning obedience to their leadership.

We will show you that not all church goers are fools.Take a lesson from a neighbour country!!!!

Anonymous said...

Remember all Christians- spend time with your family this week and maybe treat them to a wholesome meal.Just be blessed with each other without worrying about how to full your "Building Fund Pledges" & Pleadge a rick or a Chair Appeal.God sits on a Great White Throne and he certainly doesn't not need your plastic chair. May each of you find spiritual rest in your own homes without being heckled by some church creep asking for more money.

The 6th Columnists

Anonymous said...

Read the article in today's Star paper on "The rise of Mega churches" under the column Insight Down South by Seah Chiang Nee. The article aptly described the spiritual crimes and the false doctrines of City Harvest Church & Calvary Church. It described the churches are nothing but "money raising institutions" that had made them rich and living comfortable lives on their members money, who had been so foolishly deceived by their false leaders. Imagine in the article it says that 14,000 members of CHC cat still pledged to stand by and support their leaders. How easily they can be deceived and accept the worldly style of worship as biblical.

Jesus Christ, our Lord described satan as "RULER OF THIS WORLD". John the last apostle said "SATAN WHO DECEIVED THE WHOLE WORLD". We thought satan only deceived non believers, but NO it included also christians. The Lord said many christians even the elect will fall away from the truth in latter days described as "the great falling away". We asked, how can this ever happened with these churches where these professed believers claimed to know & received Christ? Have we ever wondered why Christ always spoke in PARABLES when preaching to the multitudes and would only explained them to a few,the apostles/disciples? The Lord knew the hearts of the men, people of the world. People who called themselves "born again" christians but still can fall under the deception of satan. They failed to love & endured by the truth. Their itching ears would rather listen & sucumbed to the temptations of these false preachers who are the Pharisees & Scribes of today.

The end of the world, Jesus described will be like in Noah's time, where the majority perished and only a few are saved. Only those who are willing to love the truth and endured to the end will be saved. WATCH AND PRAY.

Anonymous said...

ARE YOU UNKNOWINGLY PART OF A CULT?

If you're hearing phrases like"Obey,Apostolic Mandate,Five Fold Ministry, Honor the Pastor, LANDMARK CHURCH, Theocracy,Under Authority, Covering,Robbing God,Submit,Fulfill your Pledges to God" at your church,then perhaps you have been drawn into a Cult unconsciously.

Cults usually have a Charismatic Pastor with a dominating influence over the Church with a few boneless cronies around him-all Yes,Yes Men & Women.His vision for the Church is all that counts and matters. Like Moses,he hears from God directly and the congregation has to obey without question.All Opposition to him is snuffed out.Only obedient sheep are entitled to join-which is a privelege.He is a Bond Servant of Christ(but his salary and perks
are rather secretive)
All the sheep are encouraged to give to the Church to get Gods blessings.You are part of the divine plan to put up a landmark church!! Just imagine- to be a part of a LANDMARK CHURCH!!!!!

Be Careful out there folks!!God bless your Sunday!!!

Anonymous said...

MY CHANGING THOUGHTS ON CC
A normal church would not have any trouble with you moving to another church as long as you stayed rooted in the faith. Because it is the faith in JC that matters, not membership in an organization. For example if you were a Christian then you could move from one church to another and still be a Christian.

However cult leaders will tell you can only be "saved"(or can only be successful) in their organization alone. No other organization has the truth, all others miss the mark. So it is not the belief system that decides your future, but it the belief system AND your membership with that particular group.

Whan I was stil at CC- we were not encouraged to go to other churches and not even to give to other causes. Give only to CC.Like it was the only church!! I did visit other smaller churches quietly --and left CC a long time ago even before the CC crisis and I am glad I did.

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