Monday, June 1, 2009

STOP IT!!!

That was the strong 2-word warning from Rev Dikran Salbashian in his sermon yesterday at Calvary Church’s Sunday morning services.

Preaching from 1 Corinthians 3, where Apostle Paul taught on the subject of divisions in the Church, Rev Dikran warned against rumour-mongering, gossiping and quarrelling in the Church. He lashed out at gatherings and meetings where the prayers said and agenda were nothing more than gossip in disguise.

This is indeed a timely and apt message to our Pastors and Deacons who have been feverishly conducting countless small group meetings for invited church members in the last few weeks (and more in the next 2 weeks) which have caused much confusion, strife and division in our already embattled and hurting church. These meetings have resulted in even more gossip circulating around.

The meetings have also caused problems among some husbands and wives who were invited to attend the meetings separately at different times, for reasons best known to our Pastors and Deacons. Some interpreted it to be an attempt by the church to ‘divide and conquer’ the minds and opinions of the members even between husbands and wives.

Adding to the confusion, in one of the meetings, a lay leader (nominated for deaconship), a Deacon and a Pastor gave 3 different answers to 1 question by a member. So not only are the members confused, our leaders themselves are equally confused if not more confused than the members.

These meetings were designed with a single agenda which is to explain our Pastors and Deacons’ side of the story to the many ethical, moral and legal issues raised by our ex-deacon, Dr Lum in his private resignation letter to Senior Pastor. Most of these issues which were actually disclosures of weak governance, poor stewardship, wrong-doings, misuse of funds and abuses of position and power in our Church, were also subsequently highlighted in Dr Lum’s interview on CalvaryToday (http://calvarytoday.blogspot.com/).

These small group meetings by our Pastors and Deacons are the only meetings currently being organized and held in our church for the members. The TTG group, on the other hand, has not held any meeting for the members since the last one on 26 July 2008, almost a year ago. Obviously, Rev Dikran’s message must be directed (under the direction of the Holy Spirit) to our Pastors and Deacons.

As far as the TTG group is concerned, both sides of the story to the issues raised by Dr Lum have already been made known to the members. Our Pastors and Deacons already had the opportunity to present the findings of the Auditors on some of the issues at the recent EGM on 4 April 2009. Dr Lum has already been unfairly and arbitrarily sacked as a member of the Church after refusing to subject himself to a Kangaroo Court set up by the Deacons. He no longer has any more avenue to speak. There is no need to further “bury” him. There is, therefore, no need to hold these small group meetings to explain the same issues.

Although Dr Lum was denied the opportunity to defend himself at the recent EGM, the TTG group has already concluded that it is best to leave the issues to rest as continued fighting over these issues will not benefit anyone but only serve to create more strife and division among the members.

And although the TTG group has submitted a resolution to be tabled at the coming AGM for the reinstatement of Dr Lum’s membership because it is the right thing to do, they will not be distracted from the actual issues which can destroy our Church.

The issues facing our Church are the lack of transparency and truth, poor governance and bad stewardship. Dr Lum’s issues have highlighted and emphasized the need for greater transparency, truth, better governance and good stewardship. These ARE the Real Issues! These issues are what the whole Church should focus on. Bro Hong Meng had earlier written an article highlighting some of the real issues that should be addressed by the Church Leadership but sadly, in all their actions and meetings so far, they have avoided addressing the real issues of Truth, Transparency and Godly Governance in Calvary Church. (Read Bro HM's article entitled "What is it all about?" at http://calvarytoday.blogspot.com/2009/04/what-is-it-all-about.html).

So, dear Pastors and Deacons, please STOP IT now!

34 comments:

Anonymous said...

My teenage daughter attended this service. She was sking me why this Pastor was shouting 'STOP IT, STOP IT, STOP IT!'

Her friends longer come for services, following their parents. She is so so lonely and wants her friend back. She has no one to share and had voice her intention to stop coming as she dont understand why things happen to church. Why no one acting like one and longer feel anything coming for service. As parent, I feel hurt.

I do hope something will happen this AGM, STOP IT and move on.

covering up! said...

sermons are meant to edify and uplift one's spirit...but sermons preached in Calvary seem to be getting very skewed towards comdemning those who question or demand for transparency/accountability. This leaves members feeling dry and condemned after a sunday service, which should not be the case. Condemnation and guilt comes from the devil, so I guess we know who is directing and guiding the church leadership since they are more interested in covering up for the mistakes made rather than apologizing and owning up to their faults.

Grow up said...

Yeah stop it BOD.

The BOD talk so much behind Dr Lum but dare not talk in front of him when ask to in front of all at the last EGM. This is 1st class gossiping. That's our church. everything must be done in style. Gossip also in style, spoken in the church grounds under the pretext of clarifying issues.

At least TTG people speak directly to the BOD and even not afraid to question the untouchable SP at the church meetings. Good job. Don't gossip like the pastors and BOD who is really acting like children. Grow up please, pastors and deacons.

Karl Le-yon Edward said...

I was very blessed by this sermon because God showed me areas in my life where i had to STOp acting like a child

i'm celebrating my 21st birthday in a few days and despite the fact that i would LOve to consider myself an adult i realised that there are many things that i need to STOP doing.. that i may grow up and learn to eat the solid food that Pastor salbashian spoke of.

i have to disagree with covering up who said that messages should merely be uplifting. because i came out of yesterdays' service, having God searched my heart and showed me DECISIONS to make in growing up as a Christian.

i am still childish in some ways and i pray God will help me to grow up in those areas. I did NOT FEEL CONDEMNED.. RATHER I FELT CONVICTED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT.

Anonymous said...

I wonder if Sunday's message was directed at any party or is it just a perception? Isn't it better to ask God to speak to us personally through every message rather than imply a message is targeted at a block of people? Perhaps we are attributing behaviors to individuals that may not be true. Please consider this possibility. Karl Le-yon Edward, thank you for your testimony of how God spoke personally to you yesterday. That is what messages are for: personal conviction or uplifting to magnify God's kingdom.

Fear Not said...

Stop it! Stop it!

Leadership should stop it. Dag came to talk of 'snakes' and kill it. Dikran came to talk of 'childish believers' and 'bury them alive'

These speakers were coached to put fear in the congregation to submit to leadership.

Fear not!

cover up! said...

Karl le-yon, I do not agree with you. All sermons ARE edifying...even if God wanted to teach His people on what's right and what's not, the result of the sermons should be one whereby the christian feels convicted and truly repentant and humbled by God's grace and mercy. This is contrary to sermons preached in CC whereby every sermon has a hidden agenda and are meant to cause condemnation and guilt. Yes, 21 is still a very young age and I hope you will wisen up to what's the real truth as you continue to grow older, Karl.

SM said...

Yes, dear SP, pastors and deacons,
Please stop causing more confusion & division.

SP talked of forgiveness and moving forward but as Chairman of the board of deacons, he condones these ceramahs to divide the members further.

Dunno what to say some more...

Josh said...

Dear Karl, that is very matured of you and I must admit I felt the sermon was gave me reason to examine my own attitude towards conflict and adversity. Maturity is not exclusive to the aged nor wisdom. God bless you brother!

Karl Le-yon Edward said...

Cover up you still do not get my point.

"EVERY sermon has a hidden agenda and are meant to cause condemnation and guilt"-- This statement cannot be said for everyone..

because as i mentioned, i was convicted and encouraged by YESTERDAY'S sermon!! and THIS is the very reason that you are mistaken. yesterday I WAS CONVICTED IN MY HEART BY GOD'S GRACE AND MERCY!!


"Karl le-yon, I do not agree with you"--i posted here a testimony of my experience yesterday, i fail to see what you would disagree with. i came out of church UPLIFTED knowing that GOd is making a change in my life! you have understood me completely wrongly.

My testimony alone (and this is a true account) is sufficient to nullify any statement you made above---for the simple reason that your statements were sweeping and anecdotal in nature.

are you suggesting that the renewal and refreshing that i feel EVERy sunday when i walk out of church is NOT a result of the move of the HOLY SPIRIT in my life? if INDEED you are right, and "sermons preached in CC whereby every sermon has a hidden agenda and are meant to cause condemnation and guilt", then why are these sermons speaking to me?

NST article said...

during the briefings, they were trying to explain away about 10,200 members...giving silly excuses about how they actually meant 'minister to' instead of being actual members. However, article in NST where David Seah was interviewed stated clearly there are more than 10,000 members in CC. David Seah, if what they posted is indeed wrong like you claimed, you should at least hv the decency to inform the writer of the article that he was wrong to say that!why didn't you I wonder????

http://www.nst.com.my/Current_News/NST/Monday/World/2403632/Article/index_html

Anonymous said...

i agree with karl that the message brought me conviction too..
but i do not agree that it caused condemnation..
i personally feel that people should look at it in the light of edifying yourself rather than feel as if it is directed at you..

Elite said...

Sad and disgusted of STOP IT ..not be childish is no biblical teachings frm Dikran.Much on his personal son and his father's shop of his being.Claimed he can use PG office in CCC when he comes to KL again ...if ever be completed belongs to him too as belong to Abba Father! Humilating to teach
the ducks who know how to swim..meant
for kindergarten school not wise men. Compelled to give such sermon ..bt how much he knows issues. Pray cast out power of deception wrath greed crept in depth to return calvary back to GOD hands faithful stewards#

cover up! said...

in that case, keep on doing what you wish to do, Karl...I still stand by what I think about the sad sad condition of CC, it is a dying church..led by pastors who are questionable in integrity. God bless

Karl Le-yon Edward said...

Thank you cover up, i think that's much better said. now that you've shown that it is your personal opinion, i'm not going to say you're wrong.

God bless you too.. :) and whoever you are, really no hard feelings please. We're a family

Question to NST article said...

and if David seah was to inform the editor AFTER the article was published, how would that help?

Parent said...

Karl do not engage in counteracting comments. God Bless you that you are still young and innocent - you have received something from the Sunday sermon.

Could everyone please stop commenting on comments. Let each one has their say without you attacking them. Each one is entitled to their how they perceive something. Please respect that.

We are human said...

Pastors, Evangelists, leaders – they are all human. No matter how spiritual you are, you can and will be tempted to put into your sermons something from the flesh.

Do read Katherine Khauman’s life story. She was also involved in the initial fund raising when we were building our church in DH. She was a person mightly used by God holding many crusades with healings and mircaces. Towards the end of her life she allowed her flesh to rule her. She fell in love with a married man who divorced his wife and lived with her. She said she felt led by God to do this. She continued her ministry with miracles and healings while she was living in sin. I often question why God still allowed her to perform healing and miracles. God has shown me that He was honoring the faith of the person who came for healing in His name, not because of Katherine Khauman. Read how her end came.

The commercial video clipping used on Sunday was in bad taste as it showed a person in authority bashing someone who came for help. You know the story. However the saddest part was it did not portray our God in a good light. I could not hear anything about God being “love” and will help us. It is all about “Stop it - don’t be naughty or else you will be put in a coffin”.

God is a faithful God. Of course, God has allowed me to get some spiritual food as I sieved out the rest that was not from God. Therefore do not discredit anyone who said they were blessed by the service.

Anonymous said...

dont think karl understands what is the meaning of hidden agenda in sermons...tis means it may seem to be talking about one thing and probably unaware ppl will find it 'speaks' to them, but in actual fact, it is trying to say another thing to the ppl it is intended for - the ones who are supposedly gossiping abt church.

STOP IT !!! said...

Some may think that the "Stop It" sermon is directed to the TTG members BUT perhaps it is meant for PG & BOD.

Substitute the 2 characters in the video with God & PG. PG goes to God in prayer each time trying to seek God's view on how to handle the "mess at CC" & each time God tells him to "Stop It".

PG goes away each time thinking that God wants him to stop the TTG (Truth, Transparency & Godly Governance) movement NOT realising that actually God (being a god of Truth) is telling him to stop his nonsense by coming out clean & repenting for all his past misdeeds.

After the "ceramahs" & getting surprised that some of those who attended were asking searching questions, PG again goes to God in prayer & God says "Stop It or you'll be buried alive in the box".

So PG & BOD (who worships & follows him blindly), do wise up & wake up from your slumber. God says to you "I called you to build a 5,000 seating church NOT a 5,000 seating convention centre. STOP IT or you'll be buried alive in the box (read as CCC)".

SM said...

Question to NST article said...
"and if David seah was to inform the editor AFTER the article was published, how would that help?"

It helps a lot to show the kind of people we are, people who will not tolerate untruths or misleading statements to be published.

That's why, every now and then, you will see "Correction" published in newspapers. Most people uphold the ethics of publishing the truth. We should have even higher standards of ethics than the world.

Our church failed in this instance.
Shame on us, actually.

truth said...

Qn to NST

"and if David seah was to inform the editor AFTER the article was published, how would that help?

June 2, 2009 8:21 AM"
I think the person who asked this question if he or she is a pastoral team, it is better for that person to leave the ministry. Go out to the work and most of us are not subjected to lies but hold the truth. Get out!!

Karl Le-yon Edward said...

yes, i agree with parent. I should not have responded to cover up's statement. And for that i apologise.

However, as for my intentions i had nothing in mind of attack.

Once again i am sorry for coming across offensive. I responded to clarify a point that i should have said more clearly the first time.

NST article said...

Question to NST article,
Umm..may I ask whether you are working in the corporate world or are you perhaps a young person still studying? If you are indeed a young person, I will forgive your childish question and 'katak di bawah tempurung-ness' since you may be still young and naive. But if you are an adult, then I would hv to say yr question alone is embarasssment to all things truthful and righteous. Two wrongs don't make a right, and if that reporter has indeed 'misquoted' david seah, then it is david seah's job to inform him since it is a gross exaggeration and an outright lie to state that CC has more than 10,000 members. The reporter's credibility and David Seah's credibility are BOTH at stake, and even if just say the reporter chooses not to put up a 'correction' statement in NST to correct his mistake, at least David Seah would have done his part by correcting what's wrong. but did he? and if he didn't, why not? Perhaps it was not the reporter's fault in that case, perhaps david seah was the one who misled the reporter into thinking there are indeed more than 10,000 members in CC.

Members vs. Attendees said...

I copy and paste the sentences pertaining to members from the NST article for the easy perusal of all (thanks to NST article):
Financing for the building came mostly through donations from church members. There are over 10,000 members of Calvary Church in Malaysia.

Tsk tsk tsk.... all those who are not members of Calvary Church but have been giving/donating for the CCC.... sorry, you are not included.

Question to members and non members - do you not feel insulted? Suka suka, the claim is members; when pressed further, 'we meant to say attendees'.

Hello.... press conferences are all prepared scripts; just read from the script to the journalists. You mean nobody noticed the word 'members' except for TTG!!!! I am truly amazed.

Yes, Stop It said...

Stop the hero-worshipping of a man and not Jesus the Lord and Saviour

Stop calling "white" as "black"

Stop all half-truth and manipulations from the pulpits at DH and satellites

Stop nominating under-qualified members to be elected as deacons for blind obedience and support

Stop calling all these small meetings and brain-washing "ceramahs" inside church premises and promoting the holiness of sins

Stop all these misleading utterances, acts of foolishness and childishness

Stop misguiding the worshippers and misinterpreting the Bible to young minds and new worshippers

Stop It. Stop It, Stop It Yes, stop the insanity completely and courageously seek truth repentance and forgiveness

observer said...

Why have mini meetings chaired by various people? It waste a lot of time and resources. The logical
step is for Pastor Guneratnam to come forward and invite Dr Lum to be present in an EGM where members can have Q + A so that we can all hear from them.

As 3rd parties, how effective can the moderators be?

To stop the divide PG must step forward, not hide behind BOD, AP etc and expect them to explain away his deeds. Most recently he is also using invited speakers - he has gone far enough!!! Truly he should STOP and reflect on how many lives he has hurt - taking away people's ministries, church membership and in our dire need of funds draw huge salary and perks from our church funds!!! If he and his family take pay cuts, we will not need to borrow another 45Mil.

observer

Speak up said...

Yah, why can he himself call all the church members in a closed door fashion in the church and have a dialogue with the members and clear everything. Let us hear from him directly. Why is he asking the APs, deacons and church members to do all the explainations?

There should be reconciliation and restore CC back to its original objectives.

Sigh....

AWAS! said...

CONTRAST THIS:
Speaking of pay-cut, one latest example ( news over CNN 04 Jun 09) the CEO of BVGALRI, took a 75%!!! cut from his salary.

There are 100I examples all over, from Private
and Public & Governments where Chairman, Presidents, MD, Prime Ministers .., who acted at their own INITIATIVE.

Whereas. for PG& family 'pay-cut(?)' it not only does not cross their mind, but they GLADLY get INCREMENT EVERY YEAR+ 2/3(?) months BONUS, besides increasing demands in benefits &perks too.
( Consider too, in the first place does the remuneration commensurate with performance? )--Sorry, for the use of corporate world terminologies and not Kingdom's measure. In fact, Jesus has said called Servanthood is meant to be "Sacrifices not Accumulation"!

Even those in the system of the World are sensitive to their co./ govt-people's needs--selfish and greedy as they may be, but even then not to a point of being so careless and oblivious to sufferings & sacrifices of others.

Well, the CREATION of Executive Senior Pastor, and "Executive" this & that title/position, does give away what's on PG's mind and in his heart.

member said...

Hm....we have always wondered how much does SP get for his salary and perks....but this aspect is never "transparent" to us. Why can't we know how much he earns, especially when it is the members who drop in money into the offering bags?

We support him but is he ever grateful? Obviously not when he asked us, his bosses to go jump into the lake!!!

If he works for the corporate sector, he would been sacked for paying no respect to his bosses.

Remember folks, we the bosses should dictate him, not the other way round.

This message is for the AP's too, remember it is not PG who pays u but the members. So really you owe allegience to us!!!

Please note we only ask for respect, truthfulness, transparency and for you to do your job well according to the high standards set by the Lord himself.

Trust you will take this short comment to heart - each one of us must give an account to the Master himself. Do not lie or twist and turn for the sake of covering another person's misdeeds!!!

Member

Bamboo Conspiracy said...

THE CRY OF THE CHURCH

I am deeply pained by the cry of the church. No words can express how we feel when we hear from friends the struggle some of you are facing.

All are affected - not only the congregation but also those in leadership positions - pastors, associated pastors, deacons, cell leaders etc. - some are just too afraid to voice out of fear and confusion.

Some of you have conveyed to me through various mean and asked me what you should do. Some have asked - whether they should stay or leave? Others have indicated their faith is at a breaking point. "Why is God silent? How do I know the Lord's will for me and my family. Will I be out of God's will if I choose to leave without the blessings of the church leadership"?

I don't have the answers - but God does. A man of God who had greatly impacted my life is Norman Grubb and the principle of "THRONE LIFE" he had taught me.

I have learned that no matter how dark the hour, the principle works. I share this with you in the hope it may bless you. It was put together with help from friends in the USA, UK and Australia who presently carry on the work of Norman Grubb.

May the Lord bless you as you watch NORMAN GRUBB - THRONE LIFE @

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KhrJoTRjpc4&feature=channel_page

We will continue to uphold the congregation and the leadership as you go through the Valley of Achor.

God has put within us the power of faith, prayer and intercession, so let us all DECLARE that the Lord has already provided a way though the Valley of Achor.

Know that the life of Christ is flowing through you and He will never leave you. He chose you - thrust Him to complete His work in you - where He has placed you.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
THRONE LIFE
by Norman Grubb

"And the Lord said to Moses, 'Why do you cry to Me? Tell the children of Israel to go forward. But lift up your rod, and stretch out your hand over the sea, and divide it; and the children of Israel shall go on dry ground through the midst of the sea'" (Exodus 14:15,16).

In effect, God was saying: "Why do you ask Me to do it? Do it yourself. Stretch out your rod and divide the sea." In other words, Moses had said to God, "You do it;" but God answered Moses, "No, you do it."

A glance through the Bible and many Christian biographies multiply instances of this by the thousands: Jeremiah, Gideon, Hudson Taylor, and the like. In the settlement of this controversy lies the key to all spiritual power and achievement throughout history.
NORMAN GRUBB
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

What it means is if you are a child of God, the will of God for you is NOW. DO YOU STILL TRUST AND HAVE FAITH IN HIM? If you answer "YES" stand firmly and you do not have to be confused nor have a double mind. Have a single eye and see through the situation unto God.

David, Paul, Abraham, Moses all faced their enemies directly and declared the will of God. Do the same!

Vijay

" RESET " said...

to "Member Said"

From your expressions, your feelings of indignant over the attitude & behaviour of PG and Assoc pas.is understandable, but perhaps somewhat carried away due to the trying situation of the crisis.

However, let's not be mistaken, but be clear ourselves:
1.We support the Work of God through the Church and not PG

2. We are NOT his 'Boss' and he need never be grateful to us. God is PG's and our LORD. He alone is the Giver of every good gift and our faithful Provider to all we have.

3. It's beyond 'respect'--We Honour HIM for His Love for for us.

4.We do NOT dictate to PG nor to one another.
God is Sovereign over everyone & everything in
Heaven and on Earth. In all we do it's always for
Him as He enables us.
Our allegiance is only to GOD alone.

Be encouraged, God is Just & Faithful.

Bamboo Conspiracy said...

NORMAN GRUBB - THRONE LIFE.

Broken link corrected.
Video updated @

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9GpBcb3bZc

My apology for inconvenience.

Thanks for feedback.

Vijay

You Tube said...

Must view from You tube. A video clip compiled by Bro Vijay.

VOTE WISELY - REJECT ROGUE CHRISTIAN LEADERS!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yro-vhML8Q8

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