http://thestar.com.my/metro/story.asp?file=/2009/11/18/central/5118315&sec=central
(Thanks to a church member who sent us this scan copy of the newspaper article. On the right is the scan of report on the issues raised at the EGM found in the newspaper but not found in the Star online portal)
************************************************************
On another note, CT received this e-mail on 16 November 2009, in which the writer posed a simple question to us. We publish this so that all who are reading and following the CC Saga will ask themselves that one simple question which is recorded in the last paragraph of this e-mail. This is the view of someone outside of Calvary Church.
Hi brothers & sisters in Christ,
I accidentally stumbled upon your blog site "calvarytoday.blogspot.com" when I surfed the net under Calvary Church. I have heard about the grand plan of your church a couple of years ago but did not follow up on the development towards your church's vision until recently when out of the blue I wonder what has taken place since the news of a RM100 million Calvary Church building plan hit the Star newspaper several years ago.
To start off, what your church is experiencing now is not a surprise to me. Mega churches almost always has a hidden agenda. In your case, money mismanagement by the senior pastor, a compliant board of deacons who are hand pick by the senior pastor, a pastor who shove his feet into the face of his sheeps who rebel, an EGM which is manipulated. These are clear signs of a wrong leadership. I want to lend support here to all you who rebel with a cause, as an outsider but a fellow follower of Christ that what you people are doing is a great show of courage, righteousness and wisdom. Your guys are not blind followers. What puzzles me is why is it so diffficult to remove your pastor. He has no business to lead the church now. In fact to allow him to continue, is to be a fellow comrade in crime. Mis-using God's money for one's own selfish purpose is sinning against God. To let your pastor continue to hold on to his post is to continue to allow him to plunder God's money. And to continue allowing him to do, now that the congregation is aware, is to be a partner in crime. Your congregation has all the facts of his abuse already. The right thing to do now is to remove him through a EGM. And following that, all the money embazzled must be recovered. You can write off the money the thieves stole from you but Do not write off the money the thieves stole from the church because the church's money do not belong to you. What your pastor did is a carbon copy of the many churches in USA and many dirty politicians common practice. That's saying one thing but doing another. Not practicing what one preaches. You can call him a false preacher. His crime is the prove.
In conclusion, may I ask this simple question? Do you want to be accused of being a partner in crime with your pastor? If your answer is no, sack him! God will be your supporter. Satan will be your discourager. Who then do you follow? Fear not if you are doing right. The one who should tremble is the criminal.
**********************************************************
LATEST ADDITION!
CT would like to quote this Comment put in by a Calvarite today, 20 November 2009 to address those who have expressed their disappointment that this matter has been made public in the Star newspaper. No one would have wanted things to get this far but since it has, the question that really begs for an answer from the church leadership NOW is :
WHAT PROACTIVE ACTION IS PG AND THE CHURCH DEACONS GOING TO TAKE, TO AVOID THE SITUATION DETERIORATING FURTHER?
Standing Up for Truth said...
In any conflict there will be supporters for both sides. No matter how wrong or unjust one party has been there will be faithful supporters who will fan them and urge them on. We are not surprised that until now there are still fervent supporters to what PG, pastors and BOD have done against and /or failed to do according to Biblical standards.
But we must understand that Truth and Righteousness is never relative. If it is white it has to be white, no matter how people may argue and say it is black or grey according to their interpretation. Those of the people who say how sad they are about the Star Article and that matters has gone public..and how the Christian faith would have been tarnished, it is humbly submitted that all attempts have been made to all levels of Christian leadership in the country on the matters at hand over the past many months. If PG, pastors and BOD had been Christlike and willing to humble themselves then the turn of events would not have come this far.
It is sad that CC leaders were just too arrogant to acknowledge their mistakes and to say they are sorry and to humble themselves and repent....There have been numerous attempts to talk to PG, pastors and BOD but to no avail. So what makes one not wonder that God will not use people to bring about change in CC and that God's fire can come in different forms. Many months back a visiting pastor prophesied that God's fire will descend at the altars in CC. Don't we believe that God is the righteous and holy God and He shares His glory with no one!
I believe God will never compromise on what is the truth, righteousness and justice because He delights in these. I would rather be supporting and stand up for what is right than compromise with what men perceive is not the proper thing to do when the truth is revealed and it hurts and that further, there are negative consequences that will naturally follow due to such exposures.
November 20, 2009 5:09 PM
123 comments:
Many people must have read the article already! When we were out for breakfast this morning we noticed someone reading the newspapers intently.
Lo and behold I noticed the page he was reading had the title on the page "CRISIS ROCKS CALVARY CHURCH". This person did not look like to us, someone who is from Calvary Church.
We have read the article, it is a very informative and timely article for all as for so long the matters in Calvary Church have been confined to CC members and concerned Christians.
Now in God's time it has been revealed to the public so that innocent trusting people will no longer take the Calvary Convention Centre project as a well deserving and trustworthy project to support based on just the publicity and claims by CC leaders alone. We hope the people's eyes are indeed opened now.
May the TRUTH be fully revealed to all.
Many of us in Calvary has been very very patient with you - TTGs. all your shouting and screaming in AGM/EGM we still have kept quiet. Your actions and attitudes during church service, we still kept quiet. All your write-ups in CT and BC we still said nothing and hope you will come to your senses.
This Sunday onwards, you TTG will be dragged out of the church and thrown out.
Including you Hong Meng, Siew Chyuan, Dr. Lum, Karen, and all those who are known as TTGs.
We will see what happens. I have had enough, you have practically ruin my spirituality and even that of my parents.
This is not your victory just your turnign point to the start of your defeat.
You are the enemy now, since you are inclined with the enemy's teachings.
Hello Anonymous,
If you dare to issue such a threat and even name names like "Hong Meng, Siew Chyuan, Dr. Lum, Karen, and all those who are known as TTGs." then come out open with your identity.
Does Calvary Church belong to you and your parents. Don't know how old you are but I believe that some of these peope you name were in Calvary Church before you were born. In fact, some of them were in Calvary Church before Prince and his family knew the existence of Calvary Church.
Only our Heavenly Father - the owner of Calvary Church has the right to throw anyone out. NOT YOU OR PRINCE GUNERATNAM.
Anyway, it is oficially recorded that there has been a threat issued and (we can guess from where it came from) we will all be looking out and keeping an eye on the safety of these brothers and sisters.
Dear Readers,
We apologise for releasing the above comment which contains language which we do not approve of and we believe many of our readers share the same stand.
The reason for this release is to inform all readers that we have received a few comments of such nature this morning and we have reasons to believe they are from the same person.
Since this person (or maybe persons) cannot contain his/her anger and write or scold us using proper acceptable public language, we will not be publishing their comments.
God Bless.
We in calvary church is indeed in interesting times... SP has been preaching for the end-of-times and I believe he is prophesying about himself! May the Lord our Father will be done for calvarites
It's so easy for PG to say disputes must be resolved within the sanctity of the church (his chosen turf), but how come he's not initiating dispute resolution meetings? And he did not even attend the mediation arranged, without arranging an alternative date? Seems like disputes must not only be resolved within his turf, but on his terms as well. He's ready to forgive if TTG is ready to forget about their grievance- how convenient.
I am very saddened by your (foolish) action by publishing our church issues in the newspaper.
It's sad to see what damage you can cause to the House of God.
I will not comment much. But i leave this question with you:
All you have been doing seemed to be your 'conviction'.
But...what if your conviction is wrong? What happens when you leave this world and the devil comes to you and says "Well done my faithful servant, for ruining the House of God which was on the verge of impacting the nation and the world."
What if what you are doing now, everything is not what you thought is right?
Think about it.
Come on CalvaryToday, stop your acts, you created your own anonymous comments with not acceptable language and posted it. Snaky and how low could you go.
I was the one that send the 1st anonymous comment with the action of throwing out the TTG member and DID NOT sent the second one.
I would challenge you, go ahead and publish this comment as well, let's see how transparent you are.
1st Anonymous
Hey 1st Anonymous. Calvary Today don't need to create false comments lah. They can publish anything in the main post. Why they want to spoil their name? Why they want to show public got people scold them bad words? Stupid ah?
I was the one who sent the "moron" comment. (Moron means an adult behaving like a child). I am sorry I had to use the crude remarks and I shouldn't use "bloody" to augment it. I did not care about the argument in your church but when it came out in the Star, It mattered deeply to me because I am working hard to win people to the Lord and to the church. I lost my mind with all those dirty linens being thrown out in the open like that!
PS: I had shed tears upon reading the article!
Hey everyone! Stop throwing darts now. Now is not the time to quarrel.
We need to pray earnestly that God will speak to everyone - SP to realise that he needs to come up and meet the group - TTG group to be kinder and more patient.
Unless God intervenes (that would be terrible) the only person who could put a stop to all these is SP himself. He has not made an effort to meet up with the group up till now!!
Dear People
Please step back and look at the whole picture. It is indeed a sad day for all Christians in Malaysia. But TTG is not to be blamed. I believe the church is going through a renewal, it is ugly and very painful, but perhaps necessary. Don't we all want a clean, healthy and growing church. TTG, thank you for taking the hard road. It is hardtimes for you too because people are being nasty to you for righteousness sake and I know it also hurts you that it has to come to this, but take heart, the LORD is your Portion, your Sheild, your Saviour.
when you say the church you mean calvary or us christians in malaysia? it has now become a malaysian church issue and i think cooler and wiser heads need to be used now.
it is indeed a sad day.
michael william
why is everyone pointing fingers at each other and blaming one another when the MAIN CULPRIT, ie PRINCE GUNERATNAM is getting away scot free?
Let's look at the source of why all this happened. Was it the TTG who started all this money misappropriation? No. Did the TTG try to first resolve it internally but to no avail? Yes. Did the TTG agree to attend to a mediation meeting in the AG Council? Yes. Did PG and his cronies pull out last minute to this mediation meeting? Yes.
Enough said. We know who is the one who needs to be sacked from Calvary Church. It is not the TTG Uncles and Aunties. It is PG and the deacons.
To all anonymous
If you believe in winning the lost souls, now is the time, go out and be bold in sharing your understanding about the bible, dont need to be so narrow minded, The Star article is just the tip of the iceberg with regards to many other good governance issues. Now is the time the Christians, in particular, the Calvarites should come forward in total truthfufulness to ourselves and and to Christ, our Saviour, who had cleansed us of our sins and iniquities, and for all of us who fall short of the glory of God to 'repentance' for our ignorance and our 'fear man attitude'
The church leadership are to be responsible and in particular SP, whom he himself was interviewed right? not the TTG right?, he himself had mentioned so clearly in the interview that "A church problem should not be made available for public consumption", So, what he is saying is the church problem and issues should all be swept under the carpet, right or not? If SP and BOD continue with such attitudes, I believe more news and articles will continue to be published in the newspaper, I must said --bravo-- to the STAR!
To concerned members,
I read one comment who is threathening the members with effect from this Sunday, shall we call in the police to guard and protect all those members who were being threathened? or shall we lodge another police report for being threathened?
I am a nobody, teaching you guys how to deal with these "MONEY CHANGER" within your Church. So my mission is still focus on these "Money Changer". They are every where in the churches. Don't be confuse with the matter at hand. They are "Money Changer" in your church and literally taking your money/tithe and changing it for something else that is NOT Jesus centered.
Thanks to those smarty pants, the coming Signatory Campaign should have a whole range of issues to be OPEN for the members to know. Such as Open the Accounting Books, claims, cost...etc Consolidated amount of money given to each Pastors during the term of their service in TOTAL over the YEARS. No names needed. Just List Pastor 01 - $xxx,xxx,xxx.00 pastor 02 - $ xxx,xxx,xxx.00. Mr X - Ms X - $xxx,xxx,xxx.00
Most important of all is HOW MUCH HAVE BEEN SPENT on the building project $xxx,xxx,xxx.00 ringgit. Don't bother about discussing how much more is needed. That is just mere distraction. People who are wise can form an opinion based on WHAT HAVE BEEN SPENT...to date!! Ask for the return of the "ONE Talent".......you can as a church and don't be distracted again about those who says only God and Jesus can ask for it. I am fearful that CC have also lost their one talent and now negative -3 talent...(cynical joke)!
Where in bible can all you learned bible commentators/thelogians tell me that we should WITHHOLD Salary information from the people.....keeping it a secret? Keeping building cost a secret?? In fact they all brought their tithe to LEVI and ALL could see if what was given to the "tribe of priest" was sufficient to see them thru the year and USED appropriately. So now I am merely asking, whether these "Priest" & "BOD" & "Admin" are given sufficiently to last the year or is CC aiming to provide them pension for the term of their natural life and next generation? Like EPF +++ Grandchildren EPF +++.?? More importantantly, Declare HOW MUCH HAVE Been SPENT on the Project. That can be EASILY Obtained from the CONSTRUCTION COMPANY or the General Ledger(GL) BOOK!! Don't Forget the Backup Plan for Taking Charge, leadership in place for the ministry in the event of FORCED Mass resignation Occuring! Give these "Money Changer" an exit strategy .... but you need to "OVER TURN" their table and chase them out like Jesus did!! You need to be in disaster recovery mode now, Ask yourself what mode was Jesus when he chased those money changer out of the temple??!
.....to be continued
ALAS - THE TRUTH IS OUT FOR ALL TO READ
God has never hidden the sins of His Children in the Bible. Read the Bible and you will notice that from Genesis to Revelation, from Adam to John, God had put in print in the Bible both the good and evil deeds of His Children for all to read.
Those who are now criticizing "Hong Meng, Siew Chyuan, Dr. Lum, Karen, and all those who are known as TTGs." for doing the right thing, perhaps better ask God why He put in print the sins of His Children for all to read in the Bible - which is still the most published book in the World!
Vijay
After reading the above comments, especially from the numerous anonymous, I personally feel that there is always 2 sides to a coin as to how you look at the article.
To "Think it wisely", you said, I quote:
"But...what if your conviction is wrong? What happens when you leave this world and the devil comes to you and says "Well done my faithful servant, for ruining the House of God which was on the verge of impacting the nation and the world. What if what you are doing now, everything is not what you thought is right?"
My question to you "Think it wisely", what if you turn your questions the other way around? Have you actually thought about it? What if Jesus ask you "Did you stand for Truth, Transparency & Godly Governance, especially in My house?"
To "Anonymous at 11.45am", you said, I quote:
"I did not care about the argument in your church but when it came out in the Star, It mattered deeply to me because I am working hard to win people to the Lord and to the church. I lost my mind with all those dirty linens being thrown out in the open like that!"
Look at it as an opportunity for you to win more souls. This just proves that as a true follower of Christ, we DO NOT CONDONE such unGodly acts. Words are cheap, as the saying goes, but walking the talk is what matters. I remember a preacher once said, "the best way to win souls for the Lord is through your everyday lifestyle and not mere words with bombastic quotes from the Bible." You said you shed tears upon reading the article. I believe you did. But, don't you realize how much the concerned members of Calvary Church, the TTG group (as they've always been referred to) have cried, prayed and fasted over this whole saga. I salute them for standing up for truth, transparency and Godly governance in the church. It must have been very difficult for them.
I agree with "blue" that not only Calvary Church is going through a renewal, but the whole church & christianity in our country is and MUST go through this process. It is inevitable. We've been asked to be the salt and light for the world. Let us start with our own backyard (churches) before we dare be busy bodies poking our nose into the affairs of our neighbours i.e. about politicians and political parties etc.
The pastors in Calvary Church have always preached that Calvary Church would be the fountainhead church in Malaysia. Looking back at all these events and signs, I believe the renewal must start in Calvary Church first and followed by other churches in the country. That's why it is called Fountainhead Church. Again it depends on how you look at it. God works in mysterious ways. His ways are not our ways, and His thoughts are far above ours.
I would say it was rather unexpected to see the crisis in the newspaper but I wouldn't say it's not a good thing. I would even approve of it, actually. I mean when the church has push their members to a point where nothing can be done but to bring in the authorities, then who are they to complain? About PG's statement where we shouldn't bring in the public and all, it wasn't as if we had not given him chances in the first place. TOOO many chances were given and we shouldn't be expected to just sit back and watch when clearly NOTHING has been done for 19 months.
After all, as members of the church, I'm sure no one would have wanted this to happen but when we don't have any other choice, we have to take action.
For those who think it's a bad thing and cried over this, why don't you examine yourselves as well? If you think this is hanging dirty linens, this article WOULD NOT have been published if PG did NOT commit those acts or at least if he had try to settle it. NO, he did not do anything useful in solving this matter. You call people immature (not the exact word but I would prefer to paraphrase), but do you not know that if someone commits a crime, you shouldn't blame the police or the people who reported to the police but the guilty party would be the person who committed the crime himself (basic knowledge that even a 5-year old would know). And with such crude language, you aren't any better. You said you want to win the lost and that these people are deterring that, yet the fact that you cannot control your tongue and speak such words, speaks volumes of what you can achieve. Remember, out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. If you are raging (and crying) because these people are causing you a hard time to win the lost, then I'll be praying you won't use those kind of words to win the lost. Or I'll be the one crying.
Hi,
I'm a Christian, but in no way related to Calvary at all, although I believe my church was one of the daughter churches of Calvary many years ago. I do not know the entire history and story of this saga, but one thing I feel - to air this out in public is really a shame both to your church and also Christians in general.
All throughout times, people have struggled to win the lost, but with this bickering being aired in public, you have probably driven away a lot of people who have yet to know Jesus Christ with all these church problems. You know what non-Christians will think when they see your blog? "See, this church also misusing funds. You think Christians are so holy?" You try preaching the Word to these people who have formed the pre-conceptions in their mind and you are fighting a lost battle even before you utter the first word. Instead of focusing on the Love and redemption of Jesus Christ, people are now focusing on man made problems in the church. Your blog has probably also caused quite a few Christians to backslide due to losing trust on Church leadership.
If there is a misuse/abuse in the church, firstly I think you should pray hard about it. Very hard. Do you think our almighty God cannot deal with this problem? Instead of taking matters into your own hands, why not ask Him for guidance and deliverance? Secondly, instead of airing it all out in a publicly accessed blog, perhaps it's better that you bring this up the NECF or other higher body, and not air out your dirty laundry. Seek help from other church elders, or within the Christian community.
I sympathize with your situation, but honestly feel that publishing a show and tell in a public blog is NOT the way to go. Regardless of whether you succeed in removing any pastor or deacon this way, you've already tarnished the name of your church and Christians in general. If your church pastor and BOD's are misusing the funds, let them stand before our Lord and explain when the time comes. Two wrongs don't make a right - do you want to stand before our Lord to explain why you are dividing and bringing down the church? Again, do remember that the effect of your actions are not confined to Calvary church only, but to all Christian churches (as far as non-Christians are concerned).
I have never heard much about Calvary (except that I know it's a very rich church) but today, the entire country knows about this church.
Just a little thought from a brother in Christ.
I pray that our Father in heaven will speak to you, and grant you wisdom in your future course of action. I pray also that you will have the faith and conviction to allow Him to perform a miracle and resolve the situation. Let Jesus deal with the evil ones, but do not go down the path ourselves.
Thanks and God Bless.
Are we washing dirty linens in public ????
If Jesus is for reputation and not for righteousness,
He will be born in a palace and not a manger.
If Jesus is for reputation and not for righteousness,
He will be a real PRINCE and not a carpenter's son.
If Jesus is for reputation and not for righteousness,
He will died in the palace and not on the cross
If Jesus is for reputation and not for righteousness,
You and I will not have salvation
If Jesus is for reputation and not for righteousness,
You and I will not be redeemed
If Jesus is for reputation and not for righteousness,
You and I will have no place in heaven
THANK YOU JESUS, THAT YOU CHOSE RIGHTEOUSNESS AND NOT REPUTATION
THANK YOU GOD FOR SENDING JESUS
THANK YOU JESUS THAT YOU CAME
RIGHTEOUSNESS AND JUSTICE ARE THE FOUNDATION OF YOUR THRONE
Dear Anonymous at 5.16,
We have prayed, fasted, interceded for about 2 years. For many even more. We've brought this matter to the Assemblies of God, we've tried to solve the matter by scheduling meetings with the senior pastor, we had an 11 hour long AGM just to discuss those issues. Basically there is nothing we haven't done. This matter have been dragging on for so long. Many have left the church because of frustration. Making this issue public is the last resort. That's one of the main reason you know about this only now. If you can think of a better way to settle this that we have not already done then feel free to let us know.
To anonymous 10.01 am
You make a serious claim that the TTGs shouted/screamed at the EGM/AGM. This is clearly not accurate if not bebunked in the blog which is attracting more and more hits.
I attended the EGM last year and the concerned members despite being treated with indignity (restricted questions allowed and microphone system was turned at the prompting of none other than the prince guneratnam)had acted with restraint and most appropriately under the circumstances. Concerned members must be given a chance to be heard at the EGM(more than 50% of the total hours spent was taken up by the legal counsel, forensic accountants and the CC treasurer). When the leadership decided to restrict an open forum for the discussion of vital issues by the play of censorship and unnecessary hindrances, the alternative is the emergence of the blog appropriately called "Calvary Today". Check out the sequence of events from 2008 EGM and the subsequent airing of grievances on the blog. Members who raised legitimate issues with the Secretary of the Board of Deacons were treated much the same and too casually. I wrote to the Secretary of BOD and got a response that was so evasive carrying the same favourite mantra from the lady.
What took place during the June AGM was more ludicrous. Throwing out legitimate grievances incorporated within the resolutions for due process at the AGM were thrown out with the support by an invited assistant superintendent of the Assembly of God taking the chair. Please take time to listen to all the tapes recordings of the proceedings before throwing more accusations at fellow Calvarites. Majority of the seven resolutions were torn to bits by Deacon PT. Lo and behold, the resolution to close the blog was passed with a razor-thin majority of one(1) vote. Please play and listen to the tapes/recordings on this blog, dear Calvarites if you still believe that the concerned members have acted impatiently after several EGMs/AGM.
Instead of the declaration after the 2008 AGM with great promises to "move forward" with the setting up of various committees, the leadership for all intents and purpose has instead been seen to be moving backwards
I agree that it is very sad that the saga has to be exposed in a major printed media.
To think it wisely
You said,
I am very saddened by your (foolish) action by publishing our church issues in the newspaper.
So our church do have some issues that is about 570 days old !!!!!
Still not solved.
Think about it wisely.
It's sad to see what damage you can cause to the House of God.
God's house is a house of prayer but SP turn it into a den of thieves.
Think wisely
I will not comment much. But i leave this question with you:
All you have been doing seemed to be your 'conviction'.
My conviction is do the right thing.
Is hiding the accounts doing the right thing?
But...what if your conviction is wrong? What happens when you leave this world and the devil comes to you and says "Well done my faithful servant, for ruining the House of God which was on the verge of impacting the nation and the world."
What if my conviction is right?
Then God will says,
"Well done, my faithful servant for reinstating righteousness back to Calvary Church"
BTW Christians do not stand before the devils.Christians stand before the Almighty God.
The thief comes to steal and to destroy.
PG Stole from church and destroying the church
The devils will said to PG,
"Well done my faithful servant, for ruining the House of God which was on the verge of impacting the nation and the world."
Jesus will draw all men unto Him
What if what you are doing now, everything is not what you thought is right?
I know that I am doing the right thing.
Cos I did not transfer any church money into my personal account.
PG did, so you should talk to PG and tell him to think and do wisely
No body made any police report against me but police report was made against PG.
Please talk to PG and think wisely
Think about it.
Thought wisely and done wisely
This is an unbelievable self-inflicted war when instead of supporting the cause for righteousness and justice, spills the voices of fellow Christians who accuse Calvarites of taking this to the press, of not praying "hard" enough, of not resolving things within the church, accusing this blog of becoming the cause of someone's spiritual backslide and the list goes on and on..
To all the "anonymous" who accuse TTG and the blog for dividing the church and causing people to lose faith in the church, listen up! You are the church. If you think people are losing faith in the church because of one article in The Star or merely reading a blog, then you "anonynmous" people have practically no faith in our God. You think one newspaper article and one blog can bring our God down? Or this is just finger-pointing strategy to satisfy your whim of being the good old "closet Christians"?
It is time for Malaysian Christians to sound the trumpets and watch the walls of Jericho fall!! I see this as an opportunity for revival. Our church needs a deep intense cleansing. I am very sad that this has gone public but I am very sad that we have such immatured Christians who want to drag fellow believers out of the Church of Jesus Christ.
Jesus is not for condoning lawlessness and dishonesty. Jesus requires all His followers to be righteous and holy just as He is holy and righteous.
How can certain quarters be so immature and thinking that the sheep have to quietly endure the greedy and sinful acts of our shepherds? Even after countless efforts were made by concerned members to SP, Pastors and BOD to deal with the serious issues but they shamelessly covered all matters up.
Now that all the shameful acts have been exposed to the public they cry foul. It is time for all to wake up and face the truth of the matter... If the church leaders need to be dealt with under the law so be it.
What makes SP, Pastors and BOD think they can claim immunity by hiding under the church constitution and/or seeking refuge within the church walls rather than face the laws of the land when they have done wrong?
Be godly examples and face the consequences of your wrongful acts..Confess and acknowledge your wrongs as there is no more time to cover up anymore...
Conduct yourselves in a scriptural manner and don't project the blame on TTG.
Dear All Calvarites, ex-Calvarites and Malaysian Christians!
Let us devote ourselves to prayer and fasting..that the church be cleansed of all hypocrisy, falsehood, pride and sins.. Stop defending and accusing, rather go to the Lord in prayer and remember 2 Chronicles 7:14.
May God's Glory be restored in His Church and the Fire of the Holy Spirit burns all the things that are not of God..
Lord, Have mercy on all of us.
Sins and Darkness must be exposed.. and that is God's pattern in the old and new testatment. Nobody is exempted..
In Jesus Name and His Precious Blood Cover Us ALL...
What a wonderful full page FREE ads which cost around RM15,000 to RM20,000 in market value and is FOC for the SP and he can frame up nicely in his 5 stars office!
The whole saga sound like PKFZ issue!
I came as a visitor to calvary(DH) for about a year as I am from another denomination.
When I began to hear titles(salutation) that your senior pastor gets, I became weary.. very weary.
I mean, a pastor can refuse any state-awarded title but by accepting it (or covertly working towards one), already display early signs of something that is not right.
Thus, when "Tan Sri" came in.. I have got a gut feeling that this is not going to go down well. Who is this Prince Guneratnam actually serving?! (and some of you mentioned about narcissism)
Big church, big concerts, big money, big titles, big recognition.. all these can distort a false sense of pride and idolism..
my apology should what I've said sounds brash.. This is just my tiny observation (and I stand corrected)
1:27 Only conduct yourselves in a manner worthy of the gospel of Christ so that – whether I come and see you or whether I remain absent – I should hear that you are standing firm in one spirit, with one mind, by contending side by side for the faith of the gospel,
Phillipians 1:27
Brothers and sisters in Christ. Let us now remember now that news are out ....let us as christians stand together with you calvary church that you remember who is our God that we worship in Church.
Let us lay down all pride , our anger and frustrations. Don't be distracted by the issue at hand . Come together with prayer and slowly sort it out.
God will intervene. I pray that peace shall comes upon Calvary . not as the world see as peace but let the serenity of God's peace comes upon calvary .
I pray that you will together come together as a church to settle this peacefully.
Frankly I feel very strongly that this is the wrong way to do this. The article brings no credit to this or any church of God.
It brings no credit to TTG and the anonymous spokesperson.
It discredits decades of good work that many in TTG supported until 2 years ago.
Beloved, please take time to think, pray and humbly wait on Him. Be still and know that He is God. Step back from the clutter and human chatter.
Let us let God be God.
To "Crossing the Rubicon", may I say a big AMEN to your following statements and suggestions:
"Let us devote ourselves to prayer and fasting..that the church be cleansed of all hypocrisy, falsehood, pride and sins.. Stop defending and accusing, rather go to the Lord in prayer and remember 2 Chronicles 7:14. May God's Glory be restored in His Church and the Fire of the Holy Spirit burns all the things that are not of God.. "
To "lwb", you need not be apologetic especially when you are making a true statement and standing for Truth, Transparency and Good Governance.
God bless
Silkfuseone says:
It is about time that Calvary Today (CT) has the COURAGE and common sense to have made this public knowledge.CT has a moral obligation to the general unsuspecting public who unknowingly attend the Calvary church and give their tithes and offering and trusting that the Eldership is honest and God fearing people of God who will use GOD's money for the extension of his Kingdom.
It is ironical for the senior Pastor Prince G to say that that church disputes be left within the family.Can he define who is "Family" in the church taking into account that the general public do attend Calvary church but not necessarily are members.Does that mean that the general public is not entitled to know what is happening to the church even thought they give thithes to God through Calvary church.
All churches and calvary is no exception..They are all inward looking as far as disputes is concern.Wlth this dispute that Calvary is having ,it is the devil that is winning the battle if THE WHOLE ISSUE IS KEPT WITHIN THE WALLS OF CALVARY CHURCH.
Observering from the outside and looking in ,I can safetly say that you senior pastor and the present Board of Directors (BOD) have some serious issues to settle with God and themselves .I can confidently say ,even thought many christians may not have the caourage or guts to say this,Prince G and the BOD have all fallen and are not walking with the LORD.
The existing congregation of calvary church need to be courageous and rise up to address and meet this challenge to purge the church of corrupt and unrepentent leaders and to allow a new beginning for the church of God
THINK IT WISELY !!!!!!
When PG was sacked from Lake Club....
Fallen angel said....
"Well done my faithful servant, for ruining the House of God."
When PG visited Sun Complex.....
Fallen angel said....
"Well done my faithful servant, for ruining the House of God."
When PG transfered RM200,000
to personal ministry (yr 2004)...
Fallen angel said....
"Well done my faithful servant, for ruining the House of God."
When PG tranfered RM200,000 to personal ministry (yr 2005)
Fallen angel said....
"Well done my faithful servant, for ruining the House of God."
When PG transfered RM200,000 to personal ministry (yr 2006)...
Fallen angel said....
"Well done my faithful servant, for ruining the House of God."
When PG transfered RM200,000 to personal ministry (yr 2007)....
Fallen angel said....
"Well done my faithful servant, for ruining the House of God."
When PG kept the funds for earthquake victims in his personal ministry....
Fallen angel said....
"Well done my faithful servant, for ruining the House of God."
When PG used church funds for Jackie Chan's gymn ....
Fallen angel said....
"Well done my faithful servant, for ruining the House of God."
When PG used church funds to fly 1st class ....
Fallen angel said....
"Well done my faithful servant, for ruining the House of God."
When PG used church funds for grandchildren to go to US ....
Fallen angel said....
"Well done my faithful servant, for ruining the House of God."
When PG sacked Dr.Lum for speaking the truth .....
Fallen angel said....
"Well done my faithful servant, for ruining the House of God."
When PT said Dr.Lum departed from the tenents of faith ....
Fallen angel said....
"Well done my faithful servant, for ruining the House of God."
When PG did not meet with TTG as arranged by 2 Christian leaders ...
Fallen angel said....
"Well done my faithful servant, for ruining the House of God."
When PG engaged a freemason to design CCC ....
Fallen angel said....
"Well done my faithful servant, for ruining the House of God."
When PG engaged a default contractor for CCC ....
Fallen angel said....
"Well done my faithful servant, for ruining the House of God."
THINK IT WISELY !!!!!!
btw.... PG's house and his daughter's house had major renovation during CCC construction.
Wonder if PG claimed the renovation expenses under CCC.
If PG did that .....
Fallen angel said....
"Well done my faithful servant, for ruining the House of God."
THINK it WISELY, DO NOT FALL TO THESE fallen angels or they may say this to you ...
"Well done my faithful servant, for ruining the House of God."
You TTG of little faith!!! you claim that you are forty fifty years believers but your faith does not reveal that. You have taken things on your own hands and have put God aside. You can say thousand and one things about truth, transparency & good governance about the church but look at your own life first whether you are 100% practising it in your personal life. You are definitely answerable to God for putting the church of Jesus Christ in shame.
We always talk, pray and thank God for the freedom of worship we have in this country. As we are aware religious issues are sensitive in this country and using mass media to open talk religious matters especially church internal issues are certainly unacceptable. How would non-believers look at the whole thing? What a shame! TTG you have created a mess! The mess you have created is not to the church, pastors or deacons but to Jesus Christ.
After months of deliberation, if God does not will us to go public, don't you think He would have stopped it?
Sovereign Lord, in Your time, I know You would restore Calvary Church. Hallelujah!
Halellujah..halellujah..amen..amen Dear Michael Marschall, praise the Lord for your courage.
Dear Joshua Tan
God is just and faithful. The publicity on the STAR is created by PG himself, he himself went for the interview and he too got his 'handsome photo' published plus a free advertisement for CCC, hence, you must not blamed the TTG.
Before this free publicity, PG had been going to STAR to publicise about the CCC and have Jim or Raymond Y. to talk about the carnival and the fund raising project and now come the TRUTH AND GOVERNANCE ISSUES, why should Calvary church hide? when come to money, calvary church can go to newspaper, but when come to problem, calvary church cannot allow the newspaper to publish! dont you think this is 'hyprocrite'?
The TTG has got nothing to do with this news articcle, if you have the guts, go call the 'STAR'.
Dear Jeffrey,
I think you don't have to worry about whether the article brings credit or not to anyone. The purpose of the article is not to bring credit but to bring out the truth to all.
When Calvary Church went out to advertise the last Carnival fund raising event last month in the public newspaper, was he not inviting the public there? Is the public now not entitled to know what happens to their money? If they collect money from the public, then they must also subject themselves to public scrutiny.
Prince G, also have no qualms about using his state title - Tan Sri,every where he goes, then he must account to the public what he has done to deserve that title.
If he were just a Pastor, then possibly what he does should be contained within the church walls but he gets "Tan Sri" treatment in public places, eg airport special lanes, special front porch parking space in public places, so he must subject himself to public scrutiny. How can he expect to have the pie and eat it all himself?
He has used the church to get him all these perks from the country and the public, NOW IT IS TIME FOR HIM TO ACCOUNT FOR HIS ACTIONS.
As I see it, the only one who gets discredited here by the article is the Tan Sri & Puan Sri PG. The only effect this article has is that people will be more careful when Calvary Church ask for public donation.
I see this as something good. People will be more careful in giving to Calvary Church but Christians must GIVE, so people will be giving their money to more worthy and genuine causes of other churches in Malaysia.
Just imagine, the potential of RM150 million, which would have been used to build CCC, will now be released by God to build ministries and lives by genuine serving Pastors in Malaysia. Think about it!
Brother, many churches, orphanage, old folks homes, christian charities, their bank account will have CREDIT, now that people are made aware by this article. So who gets credit or no credit is not an issue. Wrong have to be made right, that's all.
To all those who think that going public is a bad idea, this is my opinion;
1. The gospel of Christ is the truth.
When Jesus corrected the pharisees (who think that they speak the truth), He is saying that the leaders are wrong and is saying that their faith is not right. So Jesus corrected the leaders. Isn't this what is happening now. the truth must be revealed although it may hurt. Imagine if you were a child of God at the old times and being led by unrighteous leaders and found out that what they preached is actually wrong, of course you will fill hurt. We at calvary feel that now. But when the truth sets in when Jesus came into the picture, it is always for the better. So, Our Lord is working now to weed out unrighteousness and restore calvary church. Be glad about it!
2. The gospel of Christ is for everyone.
When Jesus preaches, he preaches to the pagans openly, making them understand the truth, although He had to criticize God's chosen leaders (the pharisees) in front of the public (remember turning the tables). the truth hurts, but it is still the truth. In the eyes of public, those who thinks deeper would think that "Hey....look at God working in CC, weeding out unrighteousness and display the truth". when the truth is restored by our Lord, everyone will now about calvary church and knows that this church is clearly moved by the Lord, calvary will move into greater heights.
3. Prayer without faith is useless and and even though we have faith, faith without action is dead.
I believe that those concerned in CC have prayed to our Lord with faith that he will restore CC. We have the faith, but action must be taken also....Isn't this what our pastors always preached? I must commend the TTG to take this leap of faith and put it into action. We should know that many actions were taken and I believe it was the leading of the Holy Spirit. If nothing has changed, the holy spirit will keep driving His people until His will is done. Sometimes it can be painful. If the article in The Star do not change anything...I believe it will not stop here... more actions will be taken. Remember, our prayers were to "Restore Calvary Church" and I believe and have the faith that He will answer our prayers and He will lead us to take action, until His will is done. Like a lost sheep, CC will not be forsaken by our Lord. He will only restore his church.
BTW... I am in no way part of the TTG but I am a concerned member of CC.
No wonder many christians deserve to be called "hypocrites". I congratulate the blogger "As I see it" for presenting the issues very clearly. I read his/her posting twice.
I wish that "Star" will quote all that is written and covered in this specific posting in subsequent issues if Calvary Church leadership remains unrepenting which doesn't surprise me at all as it got 19 months head start to take appropriate action...
Let's not behave like hypocrites throwing biblical "red herring" to freak out and confuse the thoughts of many others who wish to know and have the right to know the truth. Christianity as a universal faith will remain strong and continue to grow. Have faith.
Why must we be so naive? Only the wrong-doers do not like their dirty linens to be aired in public.
hey, I agree with what Dr Vijay said in one of his comments...if God wants to hide the sins of His servants, He wouldn't hv allowed the Bible to be published. The Bible shows the sins of His people and God's grace and forgiveness and from that, it teaches us to not fall in the same sins and to learn from mistakes made by even our fathers of faith. So, this article that came out in the newspaper may be shocking but God's name is NEVER put to shamed. In fact, let the churches all around Msia learn from the mistakes made by PG and the deacons and from now on, let all churches practice a high level of truth, transparency and good governance. Only PG's name is put to shame because of this and God alllowed this to happen because of PG's stubborness and hardened heart.
This may be a testing time but if we should ask ourselves whether the news release would discredit God or the church, we should also ponder the following questions:-
Isn't God in control ALL the time?
Isn't God allowing this to happen with a purpose?
Is God speaking to the Church and we are not hearing?
Many Christians may not view this as a good way to preach the gospel but we should never underestimate the way God allows things to happen for our own good, and of course, God would never allowed anything to tarnish His own namesake.
This episode endorses that (any) human can sin (fall short) and ONLY JESUS CHRIST is true and righteous.
I shall take this opportunity to tell my non-believer friends that we should not look at man(even Pastors), but look to Jesus for only He is righteous.
But we must also tell them that God forgives, (even the thief who was nailed beside Jesus) when we truly repent.
My concern is that repentance and forgiveness takes place that the name of Christ be glorified.
Hello anonymous 11.45am
you shame yourself by saying what you had said in your comment as a christian. What? you mean to say non-christian are so immature and shallow? you mean they accept christ because of calvary church? or they accept christ because Jesus is different, if Jesus is different, then calvary church must be differnt too, but looks like calvary church is no difference from the worldly corporate organisation! When the non-christian read what is in the newspaper about cc, i believe they will know that some christian like our bod and leaders may not be a true christian perhaps, they will then probably spend more time into reading and understanding christianity..this is the time, more non christian will have greater curiosity to know about christianity.
btw, we have a friend who had asked us yesterday whether we have read the titled crisis rocks calvary, he being a non-christian said that, this is the right thing to do, should not allow religious organisation to abuse any financial and people...and etc, this is in fact a healthy feedback..
Dear Elaine Wong
Thank you for being a Christian of refreshing candor. The members of Calvary - "for and against" are both suffering and it would be lovely if you could share more based on your experience in the State. My wife and I too had similar experience and can identify with what you say.
Church history clearly has shown that the Lord uses both Activist and Pacifist Christians in changing society and structure. Both have a role in the transformation process. David was a worrier king while Soloman was a peaceful king - but both had a role to play in the will of God.
We all want to see an end to this sad episode in Calvary Church. We need more discerning Christians to write in this blog so that we all be blessed. It was lovely to hear the Spirit speak from your experience. I was blessed by your comments.
Every blessing
Vijayan.
Money and spirituality swing on opposing axis. Those given to spirituality have little regard for greed. I met Senior Pastor many years ago at a wedding, needless to say there was little to impress upon me that he was able to contribute to me spiritually. Then again, people have never been able to discern between the 'performance art' of religion and true cultivated transcendence.
I've been in Calvary Church for more than 25 years.
Honest to say, Senior Pastor is not Christlike.
My sincere belief is all Christians must be Christlike if we believe in Christ's transforming power in us when we accept Him as LORD.
My sincere belief is all Pastors should be more Christlike than other ordinary Christians. If they are not, then something is wrong with them.
To all Christians,
A named church in society is an organisation where Christians meet in a certain locality. True church will never go wrong but organisation (whether Christian or non-Christian)can go wrong.
Wrongs in any organisation(whether religious or non-religious)in any society should be exposed to protect the public and the society. Otherwise, society will collapse or degrade when organisational leaders (religious or otherwise) abuse the system in society.
In fact, as leaders, they ought to know all these. They should know that they should be punished for doing wrongs to mislead their constituents.
Dear readers,
If you are Christian, know that a church is the body of Christ without further name or address or four walls. You look to Jesus as the Great Shepherd. You will be deeply disappointed if you look to a man.
If you are a non-Christian, look to the bible to see (1) what really constitute a church, (2) who is really a Christian and (3) who is really a Pastor or Christian leader. You will be disappointed if you look at the church as a building or organisation OR a person who professes as one but never live like one being Christlike OR a Pastor similarly titled as one but never show example like one being a humble shepherd.
A faulty named church on earth OR an imperfect Christian OR a corrupted Pastor WILL NOT alter the truth in the bible which tells us about a true church vs a false one, a true Christian vs a false one and a true Pastor vs a false one
some other blogs who have started 'spreading' the news on the shameful prince guneratnam :
http://messychristian.com/?p=590
1. Chew Mei Fun (MCA Wanita Chief) and Wee Ka Siong (MCA Youth Chief) cried not because of democracy but the impending possible loss of ministerial posts and the perks that go with them. See Malaysiakini.com for these comments
2. Will Prince and Petrina cry this coming Sunday?
3. If they cry for Jesus and the hurting worshippers in Calvary Church,then it's wonderful.
4. If they cry because they and the whole/extended family lose their positions and the perks that go with them, then it's terrorful.
Dear CT readers,
It is with a very heavy heart that I write this blog after a silence of over six months because I have been overseas on Kingdom business and also I did not like the way the "comment" blogs (both sides) had evolved. I found the "comments" spiteful, judgmental and full of bitterness. No matter how justified or correct the writers might have felt, their words where not upbuilding or glorifying to the Father. I am sorely grieved in my spirit that the "Kingdom of God" was not being established in Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia with all these painful and unbecoming exchange of words from a congregation deeply divided but also having "missed the woods for the tree !!". What I mean by that is that time is very short and there is much to do "I must work the works of of Him who sent me while it is day, the night is coming when no one can work" (John 9:4 NKJV).
Today I was at a Risk Management conference and the conference organizer raised CC as an example of the lack of corporate governance and neglect of christian fiduciary duties. There was much smirking and agreement amongst the gentiles and sons of Ishmael. Although I am an ex-Calvarite (due to personal differing visions unrelated to CCC), I felt very very SAD indeed. The unbelieving community is laughing at the Malaysian Christian community and collectively we ALL suffer. I think that to file police reports and to bare all (no matter how justified) is sinking to a very low level indeed especially for us who have been forgiven, redeemed and set apart. If we are to be "salt of the Earth and light of the World", then honestly we have brought great shame to the body of Christ.
As I interact with many HC's in the Middle Kingdom, just in the past two weeks alone, a HC in Beijing with 1000 members were booted out on Sunday, 1st November 2009 into the cold and snow by the Corporate Landlord who cancelled their lease immediately when threatened by the CPC . Please read about their plight in the link below:
http://www.chinaaid.org/qry/page.taf?id=105&_function=detail&sbtblct_uid1=1317
You know, persecution really strengthens the heart. (Read about more persecution stories in the China Aid website). Now this HC meets every Sunday in the snow and sleet in sub freezing temperatures to praise and worship. If the CPC thought they could disband and discouraged them, they failed now everyone can see them outside a park gate on a Sunday in broad daylight!
When I related their story to an Indian friend of mine working in Dubai, his 12 y-o son gave a love offering of USD 210.60 to help “buy some mittens and scarves” for these poor Chinese believers. I can only imagine soon their faces, when I tell them that a 12 y o Indian boy (from India) living in the Middle East wants to buy 100% Han Chinese some “made in China” mittens (I hope you are catching the irony!) to keep them warm in BJ.....this can only be the work of the Father!
I asked my HC contacts what can we pray for and they replied "Please don't pray for this persecution to stop. Our heart never felt so warm to suffer for our Lord and Saviour. Pray that we will be able to forgive the authorities who are very desperate and insecure. Our God is Mighty!!"
Friends, OUR GOD IS INDEED MIGHTY. Please I suggest that we reflect,consider and pause a moment...... It is not who is right and who is wrong but our precious Saviour taught us that "Blessed are the PEACEMAKERS, for they shall be called SONS of GOD" (Matt 5:9 NIV). "Love your enemies, do good, lend and hope for nothing in return and your reward will be great and YOU WIIL BE SONS of the Most High" (Luke 6:35).
Let us all be SONS of God and bring glory to Abba Father! (Ga 4:6)..Please STOP this bickering. IT bring NO HONOUR to Father God.
Sorrowfully,
Chris Shun
"Pastor" PG said that church problems are not for public consumptiom and I would like to dispute that for the following reasons:-
a. A church is for the public and they need to know which is the right church to go to!
If a church is a club, then it is not relevant for many people and a church's sole purpose would be just to serve the members and not the community where the church exits.
This is contrary to what our Lord Jesus Christ preach.
b. A church or the body of Christians which is call the church are called to be salt and light of the city, country or even the world.
If the church is faulty with no light and lost its saltiness, how can it be relevant to the city, country or even the world?
c. Wrong doings in the church when publicised will open the eyes of the public and they become more discerning and would not be easily deceived.
Many people are plain and simple and need an eye opener to see and learn from mistakes.
A child learn from mistakes. Calvary is making mistakes for others to learn. It is free and all Glory to our Lord Jesus who reveals it through "Pastor" PG!
Wah lah...
God will use its people to do his bidding! Vengeance and punishment is HIS. While we are all in the body of Christ, iron will sharpen iron and this is what God wants its Church and bride to be!
Imagine marrying a deceitful, conniving and title loving wife who is good for lies and deceits!
God does not want his Church and Bride to be weak. God wants his son Jesus to marry a holy, honest, truthful, obedient, prayerful, loving wife. And that is us Christians!
Can you honestly tell me "Pastor" Pg represents this?
Don't be led into a lie that we Christians should just pray and leave the rest to GOD. If we need to fight and lay down our life... so be it!
Very difficult to read eh...? You want more? Let me know.
Albert
I just wonder what will the church leaders be with this problem being exposed in the public.... I am sure pastors are getting a lot of queries now with their phones non stop ringing.
God bless Calvary Church! It will be interesting to see what are the pastors reactions in the pulpit this Sunday.
if what is written in the Star article are all 'lies' as claimed by PG supporters, why didn't PG just outrightly tell the reporters when he was interviewed that what the TTG claimed are all untrue and are lies? Instead, all he said was that he knows who these ppl are and he thinks such things should be settle within the church. So indirectly, he is agreeing that all these are true!!
Money corrupts.
Read more on these 'Men of God' at
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_evangelist_scandals
Newspapers has strict code of ethics i.e.they don't publish lies & anything that's uncertain. Star as a major newspaper surely have investigated & check out the facts before reporting. So what's there for CC board & SP to deny?
The seperate column at end of the article listing all "benefits" of SP is taken from CC's annual report almost word for word, which I check just now,so again nothing to deny, also.
Dear Anonymous 10.01 AM
Anonymous 10.01 AM said...
Many of us in Calvary has been very very patient with you - TTGs. all your shouting and screaming in AGM/EGM we still have kept quiet. Your actions and attitudes during church service, we still kept quiet. All your write-ups in CT and BC we still said nothing and hope you will come to your senses.
My reply
You were very, very small when PG was sacked from Lake Club many, many years ago.....
We kept quiet !!!!!
When PG was sighted by a fallen pastor at Sun Complex many, many years ago....
We kept quiet !!!!!
When PG used church funds for dog food many years ago .....
We kept quiet !!!!!
We were very, very patient too
Anonymous 10.01 AM
This Sunday onwards, you TTG will be dragged out of the church and thrown out.
Including you Hong Meng, Siew Chyuan, Dr. Lum, Karen, and all those who are known as TTGs.
My reply
Jesus threw the thieves out of the church but those who do right he kept them close to His heart.
Anonymous 10.01 AM
We will see what happens. I have had enough, you have practically ruin my spirituality and even that of my parents.
This is not your victory just your turnign point to the start of your defeat.
You are the enemy now, since you are inclined with the enemy's teachings.
My reply
The enemy DOES NOT teach righteous, transparency, good governance.
Jesus draw all men unto Him,
He does not throw people out of church.
Who gives you the authority to do that ????
In any conflict there will be supporters for both sides.
No matter how wrong or unjust one party has been there will be faithful supporters who will fan them and urge them on.
We are not surprised that until now there are still fervent supporters to what PG, pastors and BOD have done against and /or failed to do according to Biblical standards.
But we must understand that Truth and Righteousness is never relative. If it is white it has to be white, no matter how people may argue and say it is black or grey according to their interpretation.
Those of the people who say how sad they are about the Star Article and that matters has gone public..and how the Christian faith would have been tarnished, it is humbly submitted that all attempts have been made to all levels of Christian leadership in the country on the matters at hand over the past many months. If PG, pastors and BOD had been Christlike and willing to humble themselves then the turn of events would not have come this far.
It is sad that CC leaders were just too arrogant to acknowledge their mistakes and to say they are sorry and to humble themselves and repent....There have been numerous attempts to talk to PG, pastors and BOD but to no avail. So what makes one not wonder that God will not use people to bring about change in CC and that God's fire can come in different forms.
Many months back a visiting pastor prophesied that God's fire will descend at the altars in CC. Don't we believe that God is the righteous and holy God and He shares His glory with no one!
I believe God will never compromise on what is the truth, righteousness and justice because He delights in these.
I would rather be supporting and stand up for what is right than compromise with what men perceive is not the proper thing to do when the truth is revealed and it hurts and that further, there are negative consequences that will naturally follow due to such exposures.
The last comments from Standing For the Truth is well written and factual I agree with the writer that unless we see humility, repentance, reconciliation on all sides ..God will use whatevers ways to expose sin and the error of one's way.. The Old Testament clearly states God is a holy God and he cannot stand unrighteousness, pride and disobedience.
It should drive all parties to pray and be on our knees.. not defending, accusing and justify our actions.
Dear My Reply... If indeed what you write is true, then who is the real hypocrite? If what you write is hearsay, it is cheap and irresponsible of you to do so.
Dear As I see it... sorry but I do not see it that way. I will pray for our leaders in Calvary and I will pray for you and My Reply. Our battle is not against flesh and blood and I am grateful that despite my sins, God loves me. Sleep well brothers and sisters.
My dear Jeffrey,
I am an old timer in church. If you have questions you should go ask Prince or his children how come they stopped going to Lake club. The blog is read by many outsiders so better don't ask for more information that will embarrass Prince and family. If there is no spark, there will be no fire. If there is no truth, people won't bring it up.
The Church indeed is split into no turning back! Depending on how the SP react this Sunday, he he know what to do the right thing... Calvary still got HOPE! If not, it will be the end of the story! Cerita Habis!
Firstly, let me say that I don't agree, both in my spirit where I know my Lord Jesus and according to my understanding of the teachings of the Holy Scriptures,the manner the so called TTG group has taken up this Calvary Church matter in publicity.
But again,it is an extreme step taken by them trying to stop some of the on going problems in the Church. They can even believe, either they are assisting God or God is working through them this way. Whether, it's the work of the flesh or devil or Holy Spirit,let God be the judge. Everything is possible!
The message I would like to bring into conclusion through my comment here is, too many Pastors have taken their Congregations and even the Public for granted.This is one more good example of the consequences of this particular sin.Well, in the last days all things that could be shaken is going to be shaken.Everything is going to be tested by fire.Blessed is the man who endures in his faith that will go beyond a Super hero, Denomination or Organization. Those who are building their own empires they are going to crumble down.God is turning all to built his kingdom now.
Fellow servants of God,fixed your eyes on Jesus the author and finisher of your faith. All things work for good to them that love God.Let God arise to be the righteous Judge of all things.Let us all stop playing the Judge game whether believers or Pastors.
Let us all humble ourselves in God's sight.Time has come where it is no more Tun or Tan Sri,or Datuk, or Dr or Rev or Pastor or Brother or Mr or etc etc.But who is willing to carry the cross like Jesus Christ ready to suffer both for righteouness or unrighteousness sake?
A concluding thot,friends and spiritual children of God's servant Prince Guneratnam, for heaven sake he doesn't need one more to cast stone on him now but admonition in love and support in prayer. Let God show him where he went wrong.
GOD BLESS ALL OF YOU.
People should not worry too much about the newspaper article "tarnishing Christianity" or "damaging God's name". My friends, God doesn't need anyone to protect Him. Things happen because God allowed it, right?
My only concern about this sad but necessary affair is that there will be wounds on both sides. Wounds that will affect your spiritual health greatly. I've been where many of you guys are now. The only difference was I had to go through the trial alone.
What many of your are going through now is Spiritual Abuse, and I urge you to read Ken Blue's Healing Spiritual Abuse (http://www.amazon.com/Healing-Spiritual-Abuse-Church-Experiences/dp/0830816607). This book helped me and my friends immensely. I've passedt his book around so much that I've lost track of it.
There are also many online sites about spiritual abuse that you can look up.
If it can help, I wrote about how I went through the ordeal and recovered on my blog: http://messychristian.com/?cat=31
The nasty comments that CT is receiving is very typical of a "cult-like" organisation trying to protect itself. Be an anthropologist, if you can, and detach yourself emotionally from these comments as hard as it may be.
My love to all of you at CC.
u know, i think AG Council also needs to take responsibility for this whole issue going public. Many letters were written to them to come fix the problem in Calvary, but because they are too scared of PG, they did not respond to the pleas of many calvarites to suspend PG until proven innocent etc.
AG Council, take responsibility!!
" all the while, i dont know who to believe, dont know whether the church is right or the ttg? but i was told by one of my close friend in the church, dont go and believe the ttg, they are the 'devil', this was quoted to me by a worshipper or rather a friend after she read the article in STAR, she was convinced something is really wrong with the leadership and church accountability issues by now as she shared. Her husband had been cautioning her about this issue and yet she tried very hard to believe what her friend told her in calvary that the ttg is 'devil' but she no longer by now. She is now very disappointed with the church leadership and dishonest spirit.
To those proud leaders or committees in calvary church ministry, please do not use your influence to talk "rubbish" to the worshipper, they are not a fool, they too have the anointing of the holy spirit and gift of the discernment. You should not influenced or lied if you know what you said is not going to hold.
You eventually lose this friend as well as trust...and your credibility gone..
A friend just told me that there was more than 20 cars outside the damansara church on wednesday after the star article came out.
Fellow calvarites. SP cannot get 3 people from his deacons and pastors to go with him to meet the head of the AG Council and the prominent christian and TTG, even after the date was given to him for many weeks.
But in half a day, morning till evening of wednesday, he can get at least 20 people to have an emergency meeting in church because of the newspaper article.
Looks like PG and leaders only want to address issue when it is blow up big and get public attention. They will not respond to gentle approach like sitting down and talking properly.
SP cannot get 3 people to attend a meeting even when he has a few weeks to plan because that meeting he see got no benefit for him.
But he can get 20+ people together to meet in less than 24 hours because this meeting will benefit him. If they don't plan what to say to cover up the newspaper article, his benefits will all be gone.
That's the senior pastor's attitude for the church crisis.
To Jeffrey
Please check with those whose name are mentioned on the comments, TTG.
Do not ask PG cos he will tell you,
IS THE IRISH COFFEE.
The fallen pastor is now a public figure and converted to a muslim.
Do look for a TTG member to talk about it cos it is really shameful to let you know here.
quoting ex aog minister
"for heaven sake he doesn't need one more to cast stone on him now but admonition in love and support in prayer"
You probably have not been deeply involved with CC or on staff with PG before. You definitely don't know PG. You have no idea.
On Wednesday, PG told people that the article was a spiritual attack. He also said that it wasn't a big deal and people already know about the blog and so this article is no different. So you see, he does not feel guilty or bad or ashamed or even think any of these are his fault. He is still pointing fingers. He is still arrogant and proud. You think people don't pray for PG? Oh yes they do, on their kness with tears. Perhaps through all these things, God wants to save his soul above all else.
And this sunday, CC will probably play victim again. So, watch out, don't be fooled and cover yourselves in prayer.
There is so much turmoil lately in this congregation of believers.
Indeed it is sad.
However please everyone from both and other parties please be CIRCUMSPECT,BE prayerful and SEEK THE LORD, and,
HE WILL SURELY THEN HEAL THE LAND!
JS
All AG Council members should resign for this 'shameful' blow up big public bad news for the church!
What is the point to be the AG Council members and do nothing about the serious issue!
Many warning has been given and many souls has been effected!
If the article from the Star was wrongly reported, then PG have the rights to ask the Star for an apology to him and clear the air for the benefits of Calvary members.
Don't use 'Spiritual attack' as an excuse!
If it is the truth then he should RESIGN and the whole saga end!
When God deals with his chosen children, God will definitely deal it well. "Pastor" PG's heart is being hardened so that when it falls, it will definitely break!
Congregation can pray and the more they pray, God hears it and hardens "Pastor" PG's heart even more.
When will "Pastor" PG be humbled by God? I don't know but it is definitely in God's timetable. It could be tomorrow, next week or even next year!
Those congregation members who believe that their task or role is just to pray and pray is going to be surprised. God wants them to do more. They can stop supporting "Pastor" PG immediately!
It is not difficult to do... just stop tithting to the Calvary immediately and tithe else where. Go to another church to pray for 1 month or more depending on the circumstances.
If need to, carry on going to an alternative church for 3 months and let "Pastor" PG come to his senses. This is the least the congregation can do and then leave the rest to GOD.
Don't be part of the wrong with "Pastor" PG. If the congregation behaves like nothing is wrong, GOD is not going to forgive us! We are suppose to be the light and salt of the city lah.
How can we not shine for ourselve and others to see the truth and reveal the deceits going on for so many years?
Is it so difficult to differentiate right from wrong?
Wrong is wrong, right is right there is no gray lah! If we cannot decide what is wrong and right, then we are blind!
Ask ourselves, what would Jesus think, say and do if HE walks into Calvary today and see the mess the church is in?
I am very certain there are those who don't read and avail themselves the facts surrounding the wrongs of "Pastor" PG, but what TTG is doing is commendable i.e disseminatting the truth with facts, figures and testimony.
For those who lack the initiative to find out, ask someone who knows. If they don't even want to ask, then I think something is wrong in their Christian life.
As a Christian, we must seek, knock and GOD will reveal wisdom, knowledge, truth, blessing, etc..
We all serve a GREAT GOD and our GOD is GREAT. Don't live a lie...
Need I need to say more...?
Albert
Calvary Web Site has posted announcement on the Star Articles and state that the allegations by TTG are baseless.
Let's see...
1. Substantial funds channeled into SP personal ministry i.e. the CIM saga - true
2. No retirement age or someone on payroll for life. SP is past retirement age and still on payroll - looks like payroll for life right - true
3. CCC has encountered cost overruns with initial cost of RM50m to 150mil - true
4. CCC project temporarily abandoned - work stoppage by prime contractor - true
5. Calvaryland under utilised .- not sure its only 4 residents - ???
6. Benefits conferred to SP but not part of standard written policy - as highlighted by internal auditors - true
Eh.. which part of the Star Metro articles are baseless allegations ... ??? Help me Help me
Yes!!! Strange isn't it???
PG can get 23 cars parked within 1/2 day of the Star article coming out BUT he can't even get 3 persons to go with him to the meeting arranged by the AOG Gen. Supt., who had given PG 2 to 3 weeks' notice.
2 days' before that meeting, PG asked for an extra day to get back with the harmonised parameters but the very next day, PG called off the meeting with the lame excuse that he can't get 3 other persons. More like PG chickened out.
Yes! At 10pm on Wednesday, when I passed by DH, I saw 23 cars parked all the way from the DH main gate to the Antioch bungalow. The sanctuary was pitched black BUT the Antioch bungalow was fully litted inside & outside.
Now that ER has made the announcement on Friday night, it's obvious that PG needed at least 23 persons to come out with a 3 minute announcement which doesn't say very much.
Perhaps that's why PG needed to call off that meeting arranged by AOG Gen. Supt. because PG is only allowed 3 other persons NOT 23 persons.
For the world to know that Prince is fully responsible for the whole crisis in Calvary Church.
The reason is simple - He simply does not care. For few years, he just refuses to meet and sit down and talk with the ttg people.
The exalted will be humbled.
Arrogance will be the cause of any leader's downfall.
The end is near...
Contd... And.. if the allegations as highlighted in STAR METRO are true.
Can one conclude...
1. Poor leadership and management on the part of SP and BOD in the CCC saga
2. A self serving SP living a lifestyle does not match the examples of our Lord Jesus Christ in his days on earth.
i can't believe PG and his board of cronies are still using the 'these allegations are baseless and we fully stand behind and have confidence in PG etc etc' trick.
these ppl think the public are stupid, I think..
if it's truly baseless, then tell the Star to give a public apology to PG for defaming him! Why say something like ' such issues should be settled within the church' to the reporters but then put in the calvary website that these allegations are baseless? No guts? coz they are all true in actual fact? PG and all deacons and all pastors of calvary are really shaming Christianity, i tell you.
Can anyone tell us what happen to this morning service??
For many weeks, we heard CC preaching to ask us to smile, laugh, be happy & rejoice, as though as the problem we face is not serious. When we cry in prayer for the persecuted indian Christians, victims of disaster, discriminated Christians here in Malaysia & the neglected needy; the CC leaders preach about rejoice, be happy, enjoy life, be without worries, as though as the suffering people is not important to God. But today we heard tremble PG2 whose message is actually preach merely to comfort herself & the sad SK, saddened by an article in newpaper. They are only sad because their reputation jeopardised, but never sad when the needy neglected, the believers in Malaysia discriminated, & the Herald lost the case in using the name Allah refer to God. How narrow perspective & irrelevant is nowaday CC pastors are, that they only concern about reputation. Does PG2 really means what she said about never give up in ministry? No! She did not minister, she only want money from CC. That is why all they concern is about CCC & carnival. I did not attend CC for a year, & no one call me up. I face great financial problem, they don't even bother to know, neither do her faithful followers do. One of my family member fell terribly sick, they don't bother either. What ministry? All they do is call me to help up in carnival, carnival carnival. We are saddened at PG's sin, but they only sad at the expose of sin.
Was at the 8 am service at DH.
Deacon DP read the announcement (as posted on the CC website), followed by prayer before PG2 preached.
PG2 was sharing about Derek Redman who ran the 400m in the 1992 Barcelona Olympics but he had to hobble to the finishing line when he tore his hamstring, half way through the race. Derek's father then ran onto the track to help his son to the finishing line.
Without actually saying it but PG2 was indirectly acknowledging that the Star article is tantamount to PG tearing his hamstring & PG's Holy Father will help PG to the finishing line.
Btw, PG was supposed to be at Cheras & DP but instead he was at DH. Wonder whether he chickened out again.
Also saw one of the TTG crew there, obviously he was not afraid of the threats made by the various pro-PG supporters. Well, if God is for him, who can be against him. He left unharmed; in fact, a lot of his friends were seen shaking hands with him - during & after church service.
CT, I salute you for highlighting (on the right of the post) to us to pray for Uncle Kandiah who is very ill & bed-ridden.
Wonder why this was not announced at the 8 am service, instead the service was just focused on PG in view of the Star article.
No wonder I have heard that PG's management style is what they call - "tissue management". This means that like used tissue, PG will just discard &/or ignore past leaders.
Looks like PG does not have any love for the past leaders. PG is only interested in the $$$ in CC.
Does the article jeopardize evangelism? Does public expose of sin of church's pastors shame Christianity? The answer is Yes & No.
It is Yes when despite the sin is known & the pastors refused to repent, they are still accepted in church as leaders. If CC accept a corrupted pastor & allow him to continue with his wicked way, the church lost its credibility to speak against corrupted politician in future. If we failed to deal with PG, how can we able to speak up against corruption of the worldly leaders? We simply lost saltiness. Christinity especially AOG Malaysia is shamed not because of the sin of one of its pastor, but more so when despite his unrepentant, he remains as pastor of the church. This shows the church unable to deal with sin among herself, how can she judge with sin of the world?
The answer can be "no", when such sin is dealed with, the the unrepented person is expelled. When Ananias & his wife fell dead, the name of the Lord is held high and is greatly feared or respected. When someone who has throughout many years, manipulate the church for his own benefit, chasing title over title, putting his Judas' hand into church account, and putting much effort in establish himself in high position for immunity & power, thinking no one know or able to shake his comfortable throne; yet he fell; then the world will know that there is a God who watch from heaven, ensuring justice to prevail. The fall of the wicked prince will create fear in many people who inspired by PG's lofty attitude & think they can do the same as PG. Lets God's name will be honored.
Is this blog help?
Yes. Firstly, through this blog, many issues concerning Christianity doctrine & Christian living have been addressed. Thanks for CT's articles & many commentors who in their writing show godly integrity & wisdom, many issues concerning Christian living indirectly have been addressed & now clearly made known. Personally, i think church grow is not when property is purchased, but it is when believers able to distinguish right from the wrong, skillfully using the sword of God's word in real situation.
2ndly this blog help by bring awareness to Calvarites as well as others, of PG's corruption. Because donation is received from public, the public has the right to know how or where their hard earned money goes. The money is not gone to charity as broadcast, but to gluttony as exposed.
3rdly, the blog has allow people who are victim to PG dictatorship misuse of church authority to voice up and share their experience. This help them know that the problem is not them, but PG. They are not alone & not wrong neither strange. We who attend CC are victims, not problem maker. Thus no need to be ashamed of ourselves, nor blame ourselves or jump into lake as asked by PG. This blog allow us to share our hurt & know that we are not adnormal or demon possessed. We are just persecuted believers, victim of church leadership abuse. We are not the one who should leave the church. We are not God's enemy when we notice the corruption of CC leaders. We don't have to blame ourselves or feel guilty. Through this blog we now know that the hurt we experience, are now experienced by many too. The things that we saw in CC, are seen by many too. The burden we bear, is now also shouldered by many believers who have not polluted by PG idolary brainwash teaching.
While this blog help, we ought to know that as the article "Reasons why PG will not repent" say it - "It is not that the point is confused, it is purposefully refused"; it takes more than awareness to bring Pharaoh G down. The main goal is not just establish a website, but really to clean the church. This blog does help but something more need to be done to achieve such goal. The Star has somehow contribute to such.
I am no longer attending CC - left cos of SP and would have this to say.
SP is obviously 'wordly' chasing after titles of 'Datuk' and now 'Tan Sri'. Am truly disgusted to see now that the whole family from daughter, son-in-law, son & daughter-in-law & wife all under payroll of CC - this whole family is being supported by CC - this is a Sendirian Berhad company with SP as CEO.
The last few times I attended CC some time last year, I was totally disgusted as EVERY service all I hear is about money, raising money, challenge your faith by giving money - it's MONEY MONEY MONEY!!!!
I am so glad to advise the church I am attending today is not as well to do but never was money mentioned once! It is so refreshing to hear the word of God being conveyed by man of God who put HIM first.
I remember dear Uncle Kandiah - can someone please advise which nursing home is he in now as would like to visit.
Will be praying for CC though..... it used to be a beautiful place to go worship and hear the word of God and am confident its glorious days will return some day.......
Thanks Yuppie for the full report on service at Calvary! Seem like PG is going for extra miles (long way to go!) like SamiValue "over Staying" lah! He is so powerful that no one in AG dare to say anything!!! Look like no real prophet in AG circle! Too bad for AG and the reputation on AG Council also will be all time low after the Star article! NECF can't do much because PG is the advisor!!! So... the last resource will be MCCC or another few more police report by Calvary members! So that the next most powerful pastor will think twice before he/she wanted to abuse the power! GRACE has the LIMIT!!! Don't ABUSE GRACE! I am talking on behalf of a lot of Christians in MALAYSIA!
Prince Guneratnam is a arrogant p.... of a man. I was in Sunday service at 5pm today. The coward got no guts to stand in front of the congregation and say sorry. He got a chinese deacon to say things to defend.
Another "samy velloo" look-alike that deserves to go to jail
Sounds like I stole $$$ from God, Looks like I stole from God, even got documents that shows I stole $$$ from God, but what you people do? Who gives a d... if Calvary today prints this, I am God's anointed servant - says Prince Gunaratnam the k..... p.....!!!
(Sorry. CT has deleted some words as we see it unfit for public reading. We understand your strong emotions towards this saga but let us continually try to keep level headed towards this issue. Thanks)
Ever wonder how we are told when an individual serves full time that person is 'CALLED', not self interested, requested, or Appointed by CEO/SP. YET, in CC--SP's Children and their spouses are simply place there--with Positions & Ministries CREATED for them, even though they were by no way ever "CALLED".
These were the facts:
1. Pam G leave for the USA and got into a 'personal' crisis and got married. So she & spouse, they spent the years to complete their studies ( conveniently in Universities owned by AOG, for obvious reasons) and started family there. ( they sure enjoyed their american lifestyle there)
Before anyone knew, they returned with MInistries Awaiting for them!
2. PG JR. similar route of fast tracking if not instantaneous to BIG TItles & Positions, including Special Assistant to PG! ( New Positions just kept popping-up in the CC Organization Chart) Even the Spouse who for all intent and purpose was a housewife, she got a position just to draw a salary, and of course Board member of CIM too.
As for all the the other facts already unearthed by TTG Cause--well, FACTS are FACTS.
Regrettably, the Associate Pastors & BOD they still want to deceive themselves by saying " PG & PG2" did nothing wrong under the cover that all the wrong doings were either "accounted for" (audited) or "Approved" by BOD and even the Missions Director.
Well, they may be able to go 'technical' with those excuses--but of course, in truth all that were committed by them were both morally wrong & spiritually forbidden.
There is absolutely NO defense for these absolutely indefensible behaviour and despicable acts of theirs.
Yes we visited uncle Kandiah this noon at Life Care Home No. 11 Jalan Bkt Menteri Selatan near stroke foundation home from Assunta hospital roundabout jalan utara into left turn jln bkt menteri utara.
We prayed and sing and he is conscious respond saying "Amen". He is weak and frail physically on tube feeding. The home is managed by First Ambulance Services sdn bhd and Helen Nirmala
runs this christian home.
Pls visit uncle Kandiah faithful servant of GOD. Pls pray for aunt Violet as she is unwell taking care of uncle Kandiah and hv very high blood pressure and cant handle him in this situation.
Visitors allowed any time of the day. Trust you can find the home
by GOD's grace.
God bless you.
Hi Calvarites
hmmmmmm..was at the service yesterday and had been in the services previously too, the second service, start with worship and song, then suddenly appeared the 'Kong Tau Lou' made announcement regarding the STAR metro article..alas, same old thing lor.. "all the allegations are baseless", we the BOD stand in support and confidence of sp and his wife..blah..blah (anyway, you can now check it out thru calvary church website--www.calvary.org.my
After the announcement, then continue with worship! why are they doing this? announcement in between worship, very weird!
Next PG's spouse preached about running the race, she even said when you started the ministry, there is no quitting of ministry...and she preached and nagged all the way lar.. quoting two olympic champions, one with 2 fowl starts and missed the gold, the other finished the race with limping leg.( the trouble is, she is not at all an athlete, she merely read and described without conviction) ...and her tag line for this service was very peculiar.."I dont know" is the key word, "you go figure it out".. since when had she became so innocent? dont know and dont know...
To me, the entire message appeared to be a 'subtle and gentle quarrel and yet very defensive', I had been to many different church services in different churches over the last few years, and when yet you listen to calvary church sp and wife, your ear can be very painful comparing to others...attendance as usual..slightly about 400 plus or 500.. around that, half the sanctuary and in between there are empty spaces..some foreign visitors, btw, it is school holiday now.. the numbers or worshippers should pick up..
To add on to the two persons who shared on Sunday's message. His wife started off by thanking SK for the timely slot; it is so timely. I was wondering why she has to begin her sermon with that sentence. Anyway, she is not only comparing PG to the two Olympic runners; but, also to Apostle Paul. She quoted from 2 Cor 12:7 "... a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure". She said till today, nobody knows what/who is the 'thorn'; but, it is written in the Bible. She repeated this verse. Imagine, he has everybody to speak for him; the next could be his grandchildren.
The sermon yesterday should be renamed to WE WILL NOT CONCEDE!
To all the supporters of TTG, you are the thorns aka as messengers of Satan. My body language spoke volumes yesterday.
Oh.... yesterday I was prepared to be confronted as I walked in. And, I wore WHITE.
Opera is still on.. has left a new comment on your post "Calvary Crisis in The Star":
They are still having a stage opera on... sad to say that PG, PG2and BOD are using the pulpit to defend themselves about their wrongful deeds instead of preaching the Word of God.
They are still pretending they are running the race whereas in God's eyes they have already been disqualified. Why try to decieve others as though they are being victimised?... or drawing the analogy of an injured marathon runner? In this case they themselves choose to abuse their bodies by making the wrong choices and indulging in the desires of the flesh rather than disciplining their bodies to keep fit to run the race and to win the prize.
They are assuming that CC members and worshippers are ignorant and incapable of evaluating the true state of affairs in CC.
The eyes of CC members and worshippers have been opened. The true worshippers have moved away to other Bible-based and Spirit- filled churches as there is no more anointing in CC.
Until the mess is cleared up in CC worshippers will be avoiding CC.
Dear TTG,
I just listened to the audio recording on the Resolution for intervention by AG council. The BOD representative indicated that a resolution asking for AG Council to intervene can be tabled and if the 2/3 of voting members voted in favor. In lieu of the current crisis in CC, a call for an EGM and resolution to intervened will make sense.
What say you fellow voting members of CC ?
Why not someone push for an EGM? I know this may be too much to ask from the TTG, but maybe this time we should find more concrete resolutions, as we have experienced the previous which only a few resolutions being debated and voted.
aiya..day dreaming meh? last time at egm, they promised you can table your resolution if there is pre-liminary, and when notice put up , so there go all the resolutions submitted to them and they strategised how to throw away all the resolutions at the last agm using robert rules, now you suggest egm...dont need all these anymore lah..maybe ask pg and wife to 'ta pau' and the members go other church better. i think everybody also very 'sien', only pg and wife want to run the race alone together with 7 bod as supporters, the rest will dump them..
After reading the article "Crisis rocks Calvary Church", it is proven beyond reasonable doubt that PG is an arrogant man who does not walk the talk. He will make statements without the least concern whether it is a lie or a half-truth or an impulsive defense. Below is just one example, I can quote others and I am sure many concerned Calvarites will concur.
Quote the second last paragraph:"Guneratnam said everything was done above board and he had even invited the TTG to sit and discuss the issues for the benefit of the church".
Last Paragraph: However, a recent effort by two Christian leaders to mediate between the two groups failed because the SP and his deacons could not make it on the agreed date".
Reading the two paragraphs together, it is concluded that he will portray himself as a fair and just man and the fault lies with the other party but then the truth is finally exposed in the final paragraph.
Isn't it a blatant display of his arrogance, treating Calvarites like 7 year-olds! There are 7 AP's, 7 Deacons and 2 auditors, making a total of 14. And he can't get 3 persons to attend a meeting with him. Bear in mind that the meeting was scheduled much earlier and he HAD agreed, then two days before the meeting, he can say that the Deacons were unable to attend. Hey, this is like Mr. Bean whose acting often is an insult to our intelligence.
Then when the article was published on Wednesday, at very short notice, 23 cars were seen outside a church's bungalow with a meeting in progress. So it can be assumed that most of the AP's, Deacons, PG Jr (as the Administrative Executive) and his other die-hard buddies were there.
Doesn't this clearly show that the AP's and Deacons will polish his shoes (I refrain from choosing stronger words) if asked to.
In the article there were nine items being queried. The announcement by the Deacons is that these are baseless. Use these items as a questionnaire and answer a Yes or No without procrastination and form your own conclusion.
Then it was written "The internal auditors, Chow Sang Hoe and Tam Kok Meng concluded that the above were benefits to the SP although there was no written policy or evidence of misappropriation of funds nor irregularities....". Isn't this a joke? Benefits to SP without written policy! Who said so? SP? The Deacons? So, the two auditors simply accepted what has been told! How compliant can they be? The two internal auditors are accredited professionals, Chow is an Executive Director and Tam, a partner in accounting establishments. If in the course of their work, a CEO who is a paid employee of a company when queried says that the scholarships and airfares for his children are his fringe benefits without written policies, will Chow and Tam accept it gracefully? Had they left their brains at the door when coming to do church work? Your guess is as good as mine.
Oh, anybody wants to pay me USD10,000 to chair a meeting? Or give me RM15,000 for gym membership fee? The quantum is not important-lah. More or less will pun bolih. And I will switch off the mic when I see you "exercising" your fingers. Great deal, isn't it?
PG & the BOD acted like BN, so arrogance and we can see Tsunami is coming to hit Calvary soon! so... watch out, new waves is coming! like 26th December 2004 and 8th March 2008
Dear Ben & Chinese Member,
The AG Council resolution can be tabled for vote in an EGM because we have recorded word of the deacon who said that this resolution is valid only in an EGM as per their interpretation of CC constitution i.e in an EGM, the AG Council can intervene if 2/3 of the CC voting members agree.
Given the crisis that has dragged for far too long, we should appeal to our fellow CC members who can vote to allow the AG Council to step in. The present state of the church just cant be allowed as is.
Dear GiGi,
I'm sad that the CC pastors were not there for you in your hour of need. In my 10 years+ of church interaction with the CC pastors, One can expect much from them for I can tell you that they are busy administrators and 'surface' ministers.
If you call them for advice, its likely that you will get them to pray with you over the phone. Need some some extended time of counsel, go to CLM. Life's major crisis, quick prayer in the church premise. Their main ministry is in the pulpit. And as one grows in the Lord, you will also realised that their spiritual insight into the scriptures left much to be desired. More academic knowledge combined with known public communications and motivation skills rather than word of life derived from intimate relationship with our Saviour and Lord.
Most of the pastoral care work are done by the Life Group Leader. That if you are blessed with a good one. I stand corrected in my statement here. Can anyone tell me of experiences with the pastors contrary to mine ?
It's nearing Christmas. We should all be rejoicing in the Lord's birth. The beautiful carols should be playing in our ears. Instead, we are all sucked into this church saga. I never believed that I'd be persecuted in my own church but I am. People are taking sides. Faithful Calvarites who have been brainwashed are asked to act out their pledge of loyalty to CC by not questioning this matter confronting the church. So they walk around like Sunday zombies with fake smiles and pretend that everything is ok. I'm hurt. I'm sad. When I got back to church last Sunday, people looked pretentiously happy but I could see families divided. Wives turn up with their daughters while husbands and sons were missing. There were a handful of people who cared and it showed. You can't hide such feelings. People were still faithful in dropping their tithes and faith promises into the bags. Most of them didn't think what the church was going through mattered. In conclusion, they were indifferent. For years I've loved the congregation and seen them grow. People asked why I'd never leave CC. I told them that I loved the church and I've always wanted to be instrumental in making a difference in the Ampang congregation. But when I saw what it's turning out to be now, I felt sick inside. I can't change people's perception. It's become lukewarm. It's turned out to be like one of those cult churches I see on TV where the people are cast under a spell and they go about living their lives in a trance.
When God gave to Moses the direction to build the Tabernacle, He gave Moses the full specifications.
PG has made claim very often that Calvary Convention Centre is God's vision.
Is PG saying to all the Calvarites that God gave to him the blue-print to go for a space-age design and to appoint a free-mason for this purpose at whatever cost?
Is PG also claiming that God told him to "lelong" to the bank the properties belonging to Calvary Church for this purpose?
Is PG further claiming that it's God vision to raise more cash by hosting dinner function at grand hotel, golfing and bowling tournaments, selling "bricks", fasting and donating the cost of meals the Calvarites did not eat, bit-size givings in the "blue" envelopes (besides the annual carnival events)?
Okay, now what else that PG and his dream team have not tried out to raise more and more...
I don't give PG much credibility to his claim about God's vision since PG is known to be a serial liar
I salute the TTG for being courageous and strong. Who would want to do this dirty job of speaking the truth. Truth is always very ugly because the WORLD loves lies, lies & more lies. If without evidence, i believe no one in the right frame of mind would want to waste time talking nonsense. God is doing something in CC. The purging and the renewing. Take for example, suppose the doctor discovers a malignant growth in our body. We can ignore it and hope it will go away, or we can elect to undergo treatment or even surgery to remove the growth and destroy the cancer cells to ensure they do not spread to other parts of our body. That procedure may be uncomfortable or even painful, but it is necessary to endure some temporary discomfort and pain in order to avoid much more serious suffering - possibly even death later on. In this case, although our doctor is making us go through some rather unpleasant and distasteful procedures for a while, he is not out to harm us but to do us good. If we are wise, we will cooperate with his attempts to make us well and whole again, even if we don't like them. That's how we need to look upon the work of the Great Physician. We need to learn to appreciate His efforts on our behalf and to cooperate with Him - even though for the moment it may not be very exciting or enjoyable. Read Hebrew 12:11-12
Our Lord bless us all and He is coming for HIS unblemished bride soon. Are we ready? Seriously ready........Think about it.
"The demand that God should forgive such a (sinful) man while he remains what he is, is based on a confusion between condoning and forgiving. To condone an evil is simply to ignore it, to treat it as if it were good. But forgiveness needs to be accepted as well as offered if it is to be complete; and a man who admits no guilt can accept no forgiveness." C.S.Lewis
Some of us are confusing condoning and forgiving. We must forgive but we must not condone. To forgive, the wrong must be exposed. It must be acknowledged followed by repentance and an acceptance of the forgiveness.
Thanks...'Confused said's great CS Lewis quote is most timely reminder to all.
We must clear up the confusion between condoning and forgiving. Do not ignore evil for if you do you're condoning it. Evil must be exposed. We must stop acting in an indifferent or tidak apa manner. And when evil doer admits wrong and repents he can then accept forgiveness.
Ok. All being said & done.....what's the next action??? Life as usual? PG & Wife reign forever? TTG continues to be bashed & demonised? Very sad indeed when the wrongdoer despite being exposed can just brush everything aside and coolly say "So What?". Indeed, "So What" Calvarites???
My Christmas Message to PG & Co. is Jesus came to destroy the works of the devil and don't be his agent. A sin is a sin no matter how you twist them it is still a sin. Don't be somebody who says 'It looks like me, it sounds like me but it's not me'.Remember God resits the proud and gives grace to the humble. In a nut shelf Be a gentleman! Resign and Go
Yes, Calvarites have mostly been cruising along with a programme of compromises perpetuated by the leadership(BODs included) of Calvary Church, DH for so many years. Hindsight teaches us to nip a problem "in the bud". Indeed, the Lord has His purpose to let the bad practices fester. Don't we all see that now?
Initially, we pretended that nothing serious had happened. Spritual blindness (often disguised or misconstrued as great faith) open the doors to compromises inside a church
Compromises then lead to arrogance and disobedience
Disobedience leads to cover-ups and half-truths and deceptions
Cover-ups, half-truths and deception lead to blatant lies and more lies.
Lies and more lies lead to mistrust and division
Mistrust leads to disunity and disorderly behaviour by some over-zealous few resulting with threats and open hostilities on the blog (without a clue that a church is a place for salvation for all worshippers are welcome)
Do we possess a big heart and abundant love at CC?. Unashamedly lacking of a big heart and spontaneous expression of love, we wish to build a big Calvary Convention Centre.
First of all, the CC senior pastors associate pastors deacons and all must confess repent and forgive. Assemble the congregation under one roof to repent and seek forgiveness. Trust our Lord and bring all of these to the Lord in prayer.
Let us put God's house in order before we grow bigger and bigger.
God bless all
Let me begin by saying that I am not a member of Calvary Church and that it is indeed shocking to read the reports which are in the blog.
It is not my intention to impute blame on anyone, because I firmly believe in Matt Chap 7 Verse 5. In this verse, our Lord says 'You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye.'
Having said this, fail not to remember that Our Lord has no such problem with regard to sight. In Proverbs Chap 21 Verse 2, it is recorded that 'Every man's way is right in his own eyes, But the Lord weighs the heart'.
Added to this, Paul said in Galatians Chap 6 Verse 7 'Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap'.
Last but not least, let me quote what a mighty man of God said on this subject which to me is very close to the teaching of serving God and mammon as stated in Matt Chap 6 Verse 24.
He said 'There is no greater condemnation in this world than the pursuit of gains through godliness.'
If I may add, let all men especially those in the ministry be warned of these teaching and the quote from the mighty man of God.
"... and a man who admits no guilt can accept no forgiveness." C.S.Lewis
How very true!. So beware, how very often ( when things get too hot for PG & PG2) PG uses this "Forgiveness" card, on the CC congregation, to good effect.
Many fail to realise that he always qualifies his statement with a " IF, IF, IF " --so it really means PG admits no Guilt! but Just plainly insincere, or plain acting.
Yet, many are fooled by his line :"IF, "I have..., I ask for your forgiveness" and then his sympathisers would all be deeply impressed and even touched:(
Hopefully, everyone will use their discernment whenever PG uses such ploy. And most importantly,
on the members part, NEVER mistaken your CONDONING of wrong doing as if it is magnanimous 'Forgiving'. That would be tragic.
I agree with you, "CC Voting Member" said...(24 Nov 6.37am) Your assessment are 100% accurate:
1. CC pastors were not there for you in your hour of
need.
2. they are busy administrators and 'surface'
ministers.
3. Their main ministry is in the pulpit. (may I add:
--just fantastic lip-service!)
4. their spiritual insight into the scriptures left
much to be desired. More academic knowledge
combined with known public communications
and motivation skills rather than word of life
derived from intimate relationship with our
Saviour and Lord.
THE CONCLUSION:
1. They are all seated high on the Pedestal
2. They are only concern with their well being--
being led by example by PG& PG2
3. The G's family assess/evaluate one another's
"performance' for annual increment & promotion
Pre-determined by PG. (All other Pastors 'growth'
is at PG's mercy. So they perform meet his
whims &fancy to please him)
4. The BOD, is PG's Rubber stamp & Shield ( BOD
LEGITIMISED everything PG covets. He is 'safe'.
(so, they all think)
But, we can take heart, the learnings from this crisis
are aplenty, and for those who truly follow after Christ, our faith in Him is unshakable.
Let's all pray that the next time when PG uses his "Forgiveness" card, on the CC congregation, by saying "IF I have..., I ask for your forgiveness", God will move someone to be bold enough to stand up and ask PG to openly state all his "mistakes" that he is asking for forgiveness.
If not, how to forgive? We can't be giving PG a "blank cheque" of forgiveness, we must know what we are forgiving PG for.
Also PG must be accountable for his mistakes, any such mistake that he fails to state will not be forgiven & he will have to ask for forgiveness at another time.
Can I have an "Amen" for that?
He said 'There is no greater condemnation in this world than the pursuit of gains through godliness.'
This warning quoted by 'Concerned Christian said..(26 Nov,9.10 pm)' essentially sums up what concerned members are pointing out in CC's leadership. For proof, look no further than:
1. The abandonment of Calvaryland, (PG2's
'brainchild' )which is now wasting away.
Datukship attained. Objective fulfilled.
2. The CCC, an audacious ambition of PG, now
stuck. (over a RM100 Million spent to date (land
cost included. Est another RM100M or more
needed IF,it will come to pass)
Elevated to Tan Sri, and the world stage of 'grandeur', status and image. Objective met.
( A lifestyle of Celebrity, but wither is the call for 'Servanthood')
Can there be no Accountability?, or Consequences to face? Certainly not!
After submitting my comments (based on the Star report dated 18/11/09) on 26th Nov 2009 at 9.10 PM, I took the opportunity to glance through the various comments expressed with regard to this controversy. I must admit that as a whole I am persuaded to follow/support the views and actions of the TTG.
Having said this, I fail to understand why the SP and his BOD still continue to mock God and serve Mammon, also why do they ignore the teaching in Matt Chap 10 Verse 26 and 27 which say ‘(v26) Therefore do not fear them, for there is nothing covered that will not be revealed and hidden that will not be known. (v27) ........ what you hear whispered in your ear, proclaim upon the housetops.'
I would like to believe that SP and his BOD are honorable men and women who are grounded in the Word of God, serve God and are God fearing. However on the basis of the various comments, I don't really think so.
Praise God, what I think is not important but do SP and his BOD really think that they can get away with their deceitfulness when the Word of God say otherwise? If not, then beware of Matt Chap 8 Verse 12 which says ‘But the sons of the kingdom shall be casted into the outer darkness, in that place there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’
Concerned Christian
Further to with fear & Amp; Trembling said..., I got from the grapevine that it costs approximately RM14k to run Calvaryland monthly and there are only about 10 inmates. So it costs RM168k a year which works out to RM1400.00 per month for each inmate.
Really expensive if you think about it because it is not a commercial setup like the normal nursing or old folks home.
Regarding CCC, this was posted on the Update "Concurrently, the architectand the consultant team are actively pursuing the next course of action to ensure the expeditious completion of Calvary Convention Centre". Again, no update on the progress of the coure of action by the architect and the consultant team.
Work stopped in April 09 and a certificate of non-completion was issued to Nam Fatt on 15 Oct. 09. And Calvarites were only informed on 18 Oct. 09 two weeks before the Carnival so that those going to the Carnival will not get a shock of their lives to see a deserted site!
SK announced the gross income but until today what is the net income.
SK is becoming very proficient in telling Calvarites what the briefest of what the church wants you to know but no further eg: he said when PG puts his legs on the table, it's his way of relaxing; the flimsy excuse of not giving the collection to the pastor and yet PG pockets the collection for himself at the next camp; the long delay in informing Calvarites Nam Fatt having stopped work and not informing Calvarites the net income from the Carnival.
Perhaps Deacon DP (in charge of Legal Affairs) will be able to share with Calvarites the legal implications between Nam Fatt and Calvary Church on the default. What happens if there is a legal suit? Will the Court issue a "stop-work order"? If a stop-work order is issued, work cannot continue until the suit is disposed off and this may take months, if not, years. I know of a case in which the tenant of a shoplot and the owner of the shopping complex were involved in a legal tussle. The shoplot was vacant for two years or more because it cannot be let out. It was only let out when the case was settled.
I have been following this blog for a long time and wish to make the following comments:
CC members voted the BOD because we trusted them to do the right things......however, last Sunday BT, DP blatantly mentioned that The Star article contents are unfounded.
IF PG has no guts to make the statement but asked/directed you to do it for him you could have the guts to tell him to explain as a pastor of CC. You are obligated to stand up for yourself!!!!
Have you sought the Lord on this matter whether or not you should say what you have said? Is your conscience clear before the Lord?
Do you mean PG did not do any of those things listed by The Star reporters and Calvary Today?
All of us will be judged by what we say? BT, DP were you telling lies or the truth to the congregation who voted you in?
To : "Truth or lies?"
Looks like this bunch of Deacons (plus the 2 ex-Deacons PW & HJK) have no guts. They are only "yes-men" & "yes-women" to PG.
My respect to the ex-Deacon (Dr Lum), who resigned because he finally chose to stand up for Truth (& for God) & NOT stand for PG's nonsense, who chose NOT to read the "malicious" statement which was read by all the other 6 Deacons at all Sunday worship services on 6 Jul 08.
To : "never ending trouble"
You said : "Work stopped in April 09 and a certificate of non-completion was issued to Nam Fatt on 15 Oct. 09. And Calvarites were only informed on 18 Oct. 09 two weeks before the Carnival so that those going to the Carnival will not get a shock of their lives to see a deserted site!"
You are absolutely right on that.
Do you remember that between Apr 09 to Oct 09 the church was still showing us clips that the work on CCC was still progressing when it had actually stopped in Apr 09? Why did they do this? Why did they tell lies?
Simple! So that we (dumb sheep) will continue to give blindly to the lost cause (CCC). Yes! That's the reason why the clips were shown; it's all about money, money, money.
Actually, the antics of PG & BOD over the past 2 years have already given us a CCC (CALVARY CREDIBILTY CRISIS) which then leads to another CCC (CALVARY CONFIDENCE CRISIS). Will there be more CCCs to come?
The multi-million ringgit question we all need to ask ourselves is : Does God really need the CCC building when PG & BOD has already given us 2 CCCs?
Was told by one of my friends who attends Calvary Cheras that PG1 when he was in CC Cheras a few Sundays ago told the congregation something like this: "God indeed had given me a revelation to build CCC but I don't understand why half way thing happen like this."
Simple lah, the building of CCC is definitely not God's vision but one man's vision.
Numbers 23:19 has this to say:
God is not a man that He shold lie
Nor a man that He should change His mind
Does He speaks and then not act
Does He promised and not fulfilled?
PG, please don't try to pretend or try to blame .. please check yourself thoroughly
'There is no greater condemnation in this world than the pursuit of gains through godliness.' This quote aptly describe the Pharisees whom our Lord reserved his harshest words while he was on earth. The Pharisees loved their lifestyle and schemed for the crucifixion of Christ and thought they did God a favor when they succeeded.
Why did SP and SAP appear unrepentant ? I think its because they truly believes TTG is an evil spiritual attack and obstacle to God's work in their lives. One needs to discern if they are right or whether the yeast of the Pharisees has spread into the dough that comprises of SP and BOD. I tend to believe the latter is true.
I remember vivdly that, a few years ago at an EGM on CCC, this little lady Calvarite had quoted from Luke 14:28 of the Lord Jesus' parable about the man who didn't count his cost & was left with an unfinished tower.
Looking back I think that God was using her to "wake" up PG & BOD that He doesn't need a BIG church building, what He needs is a church (i.e. the congregation) with BIG hearts.
Sad to say, PG & BOD didn't heed the warning from God & they continue to push for his (PG's) vision & NOT for His (God's) vision.
PG, oh PG! Don't you ever walk the talk. There you are preaching to us from the pulpit that we must do His Will & not ours BUT yet you are doing your own will & NOT God's.
Did God give PG a vision for a 5,000 seating church? Perhaps. BUT did God give PG a vison of a 5,000 seating Convention Centre? Definitely NOT.
So even if God did give PG a vision of a 5,000 seating church (remember that PG had 2 failed visions before this - Hartamas land & the DH horseshoe), why then is PG trying to build a 5,000 seating convention centre that God doesn't need?
Is PG doing his own will or is PG doing God' Will in striving to build the CCC? Calvarites you decide for yourselves.
PG has been carrying this dream of a 5,000 seating church for 20 years which was stretched over 2 failed projects (Hartamas & DH Horseshoe) & now an apparently failed CCC - unfinished tower (just as the Lord Jesus has warned in Luke 14:28).
To those who are convinced that public knowledge of this CC saga will "shake" the faith of some and turn others away, I can humbly address your concerns.
Yes, some will say that because of what is happening in CC, they don't want to be Christians. Others will abandon their "faith" saying that they are disappointed.
Does this sound like a huge defeat? On the contrary, it can give rise to authentic faith in Jesus Christ!
Should I give up my faith because of fallen christian leaders like PG who chose to mock God for so many years? (Jesus did say that he who has no sin cast the first stone, but He also admonished the adulteress to sin NO MORE)
Do I follow sons of man or the Son of God?
Should I turn Him down because He cannot promise me an easy life or instant victory?
Do I want to serve the enemy of the souls or the Savior of mankind?
Jesus Christ is worthy of worship for who He is! Angels sing His praises and demons bow down to Him. Should a mere mortal like me be foolish enough to ignore the Lord of all?
That is why those who evangelize should not be discouraged. Your job is just to share. The Holy Spirit will convict with POWER!
The enemy has many tactics to cause havocs but take heart, for our Lord Jesus Christ is the Lord of all.
What suprises me is that the recordings of the clips are only from this year? are there any older clips for us to hear?
Post a Comment