The recent EGM saw an “independent” forensic auditor and an “independent” criminal lawyer telling the gathered Calvarites that there had been no misdeed in the transactions between Calvary International Ministries (CIM) and the Church. Yes, it was probably true that none of the deacons knew these professionals before the assignments. Yes, the lawyer did the job pro bono, i.e. foc. But were they really independent?
The concerned Calvarites had asked for the establishment of an independent Truth Committee. To be independent it was suggested that both sides of the divide nominate two members with the necessary skills and competencies for the assignment. The four of them would then appoint an independent chairman acceptable to both sides. The chairman would be a prominent Calvarite whose stature and integrity would be beyond reproach. This would ensure credibility and acceptability to all Calvarites regardless of their stand on the issues.
For some reasons known only to them the Board refused to involve the concerned Calvarites. The Board did it all by themselves. It is my opinion that in so doing the independence of these professional had been compromised.
They selected the professionals. They made the appointments. The Board briefed them on the background and the issues. The terms of reference for the assignments were given by the Board. More seriously the professionals worked off documents and records provided them by the Board.
They were responsible only to the Board and not the members. They presented their reports only to the Board and agreed with the Board the presentation strategies for the EGM. Moreover their assignments required them to report on transactions which involved the Board collectively as well as some individual members of the Board involved in CIM and the Missions Department.
In the case of the auditor, he was also paid by the Board. Not only were the concerned Calvarites kept out of the appointment and reporting process, until today we do not know the terms of reference for the two assignments. Neither do we know what documents and records were made available to them.
This is most critical as the report from the lawyer was based entirely on the documents and records provided. An additional piece of document or the removal of another could make all the difference. He also explained that he did not interview anyone nor did any investigation to determine the validity of the documents or what the documents say was true. In that case was truth adequately established? Could truth be established purely through whatever documents the Board chose to provide him with?
As his opinion was based purely on the documents he was given, it was admitted that based on the same documents another lawyer could well have another opinion. That is why there are court cases; lawyers with different opinions. Then the judge would have to decide which opinion is legally more valid and acceptable.
In this case, Calvarites were called to be the judge. But they were asked to judge based on only one opinion. Would the Board give us exactly the same documents for us to obtain an “independent” opinion from another lawyer?
The auditor reported only on the accounts of CIM. It would appear he did not look at the transactions from the side of the Missions Department. It is this side that we are really concerned about. In effect he could be barking up the wrong tree. The queried transactions emanated from the Missions Department. By the time the transactions ended in CIM they were already outside of the Church governance processes.
Finally both the reports are not made available to us. What are in these reports that the Board do not wish us to see? Even the report from the Royal Commission on VK Lingam was made available to the public. We can pay for the photocopying but the Board must not deny us access to the very reports that are supposed to exonerate them of any wrong doing.
The verbal presentations by their appointed professionals at the well orchestrated EGM could not be accepted as the broom sweeping clean the mess. Yes they were independent in terms of their professional standing. But were they independent in terms of their appointment and reporting? Could their opinions be in anyway skewed towards the purposes for the EGM?
You be the judge.
WHM
22nd September 2008
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Seeking Truth, Transparency & Godly Governance in Calvary Church, Kuala Lumpur
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Call to Calvarites
It's time to unite in our common quest for truth, transparency, good governance, stewardship and accountability in our broken and hurting Church. Until the above goals are achieved, this is what you can do:-
1. Stop Giving to Calvary. If you wish, you may re-direct your giving to worthy Christian organisations, Bible schools, orphanages, smaller churches which are struggling financially or non-church sponsored missionaries or missions work. However, if God specifically tells you to give to Calvary or you are uncomfortable about not giving to Calvary, please continue to do so.
2. Pray. Pray for God's forgivessness and cleansing of our Church as a body for all the injustice, unethical practices and bad stewardship that we have condoned or been blind to over the years. Pray against the principalities and evil forces that have crowded the minds and vision of our leaders. Pray for unrighteousness, covetousness and pride to be removed from our midst. Pray for God's truth and sovereign will to fall afresh on our Church. Pray for His healing for our broken hurting Church.
1. Stop Giving to Calvary. If you wish, you may re-direct your giving to worthy Christian organisations, Bible schools, orphanages, smaller churches which are struggling financially or non-church sponsored missionaries or missions work. However, if God specifically tells you to give to Calvary or you are uncomfortable about not giving to Calvary, please continue to do so.
2. Pray. Pray for God's forgivessness and cleansing of our Church as a body for all the injustice, unethical practices and bad stewardship that we have condoned or been blind to over the years. Pray against the principalities and evil forces that have crowded the minds and vision of our leaders. Pray for unrighteousness, covetousness and pride to be removed from our midst. Pray for God's truth and sovereign will to fall afresh on our Church. Pray for His healing for our broken hurting Church.
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The primary purpose is to keep members and regular worshippers of Calvary Church, KL updated on issues and concerns in our church today and to provide a platform for them to express their views, comments and concerns and provide feedback on matters raised, so that God's will and purposes for our lives and for our church may be fulfilled to His glory.
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166 comments:
Dear HM,
I understand that Joe has been given the greenlight by BOD to view both reports prepared by the appointed lawyer and accountant.
It would be wise for Joe to bring 1or 2 persons to view the documents. Why don't you get BOD's permission to go with him to view the documents to get some answers to your many questions.
If the BOD has nothing to hide - which I believe they're all for transparency as men and woman of God - they should allow members to view the documents.
I'm with you brother. Take up the cause, and the cross.
In Christ alone, the truth will prevail.
Dear Winslow,
The BOD is so afraid of giving us anything in hard copy. We need the hard copy to make the necessary analysis and evaluation. I will not be satisfied with just the executive summary. I want the full report which I believe is quite voluminous. Their policy of read it here but can't take it away is to prevent us from having any written evidence or to be able to quote from it. Just like the BOD minutes. Shrouded in secrecy.
Hong Meng
HM, your write-up is well said. Not many can put it as well as you.
But the more important question is what can we do about it?
We have been 'barking' at so many things but we are not doing the 'biting'.
How?
In fact, the Deaconess had mentioned to me & another brother in early Aug 08 that the reason why "Malicious Allegation" was used in the Statement read by the Deacons on Sun 6th Jul 08 was because SP was not satisfied with the draft statement as prepared by the BOD & SP had told the BOD that there were emails/letters which alleged that SP & family had plundered CC; thus the words "Malicious Allegation" were added. I then asked her whether the BOD had verified SP's statement by sighting the emails/letters or is it just hearsay from SP; sad to say, it's the latter.
So when Lilian enquired at the EGM on Fri 15th Aug 08 about what "Malicious Allegation" was it, I was waiting for anyone of the Deacons to answer BUT, as usual, they just kept quiet (including the Chairman of the BOD) & then, unexpectedly, "the young lawyer" said that there was a malicious email sent out which alleged that none of the BOD & Missions Committee members were aware of the transfers amounting to RM 1.9 million over the 6 years.
I then realised that he was referring to my email of Mon 7th Jul 08 (which was sent out the day after the Statement was read by the BOD on Sun 6th Jul 08); thus, before the EGM ended I had posed the question to "the young lawyer" whether he was party to the drafting of the Statement which he replied "No". To which my reply was "then how would you know what was the Malicious Allegation?" or words to that effect. I guess he felt very bad BUT I then informed the meeting that, be that as it may, "the young lawyer" was wrong to say that the Malicious Allegation was from my email as it was ONLY sent out the day after the Statement was read by the Deacons in CC.
Unfortunately, up to now (53 days after the EGM), none of the Deacons have owned up to identify which email/letter was it that stated that "SP & family plundered CC". The Truth is Still Out There.........
As a Christian, I hereby humbly request that the BOD (including the Chairman) tell us the Truth on this "Malicious Allegation" or otherwise, we may be left to assume that our beloved BOD, in drafting the Statement, had made an allegation based on hearsay without verifying the Truth & this Statement is then read to All & Sundry in God's House at the end of 6 Sunday Worship Services. For the record, there was a Deacon who had felt uncomfortable with the Statement & he had requested that the words "Malicious Allegation" (plus certain other words) be removed or else he would not read it; another Deacon was then asked to read in his place.
May God have mercy on the 6 Deacons for they know NOT what they are doing. Amen!
October 7, 2008 8:20 PM
I'm re-posting these comments of mine made to another article. But this is edited version just to cover this matter re the Statement and the point about the baffling behaviour of BOD, who seem to be dead in their conscience.
FACTS of the Matter
My Simple 15 August 08:
II. Quote: Incident # 5 Verdict : “ 'Shockingly', none of the deacons said anything (concrete) , possibly for fear of the repercussions of their allegation, or the misuse of the term 'Malicious'. “
Dear ‘ My Simple’
II. MALICIOUS?
For your information, I was deeply disappointed that the Deaconess who had actually told me
that the word ‘ Malicious’ in the BOD’s Statement was actually CONFINED to the allegations
concerning SP’s family members, in particular about his son’s Million Ringgit house, did not
make this clarification a the EGM – instead she watched silently, as the young lawyer, ignorant
of the FACT stood to defend the BOD, wrongly!
I’m glad because of your comment/ observations, I have the opportunity to make this fact known, and vindicate the falsely accused parties by the BOD in their IRRESPONSIBLE and ambiguous Statement.
Liza Low
Please correct me if I am wrong here, but someone from the TT or anyone please answer this question:-
You mean to say "nobody" at any point in time whether through e-mail, verbally stated or implied has ever meant to say that SP and his family has used church funds to fund their own houses, cars, and so on?
Truely NO ONE has implied or stated this in email or otherwise?
If that be the case, why is it that that seems to be the main undercurrent which is spearheading the rest of the issues ahead?
The members are concerned that the church transfered funds without member's knowledge to SP OR are the members are concerned that SP used the money to fund his and his family's material possessions?
Somehow along the course of this plight, the two seem to be interlinked and has become one and the same.
So someone please clarify is it wrong to "feel" that those accusations implied or otherwise are indeed malicious especially seeing that there is no proof that any individual has misused church funds for personal gain?
I want to understand correctly what people are concerned about REALLY. Because from a layperson's point of view, all this has stemmed from the fact that people had suspicions that funds were being used for personal gain. Hence the witchhunt.
to:Peach
from a simple layman point of view like you, i read all the updates ,from update 1 to 8, all the email by different ones to BOD, all the comments, no one really talk about their cars and houses-- i am afraid you are trying to distract the issues, the issues that most people brought are accountability, transparency, good governance. please stop "accusing" the tt group. if you really care, i recommend that you too write you to BOD and Senior pastor and Family if you do have issues with their familiesand let the administrator publish your letter.
Something STINKS, and it is not dead fish!
To think that SP and the BOD would stoop so low as to resort to such unethical, un-Christian, & un-constitutional means just to justify SP's stealing of millions from the missions funds, is unthinkable!
Are they serving God or serving the devil?
This is from a reliable source:
An ex-deacon had confirmed that the reason he had resigned was because he could no longer stand SP's covetuosness and his manipulation of BOD to use church funds to pay for extensive renovations of his house.
For your Attention: -- WAGRA (the World Assemblies of God Relief Agency) was established in 1994 as the relief arm of the World Assemblies of God Fellowship. Funds are received at the international office and when disaster projects are approved by the WAGRA Board, the funds are sent to the designated area.
No funds are held locally around the world. Contributions are received from Assemblies of God organizations around the world and sent here. Funds can be sent directly to the WAGRA Post Office box and an official receipt is sent to the donor. We have individuals as well as churches sending in funds.
to: Peach
Please pay special attention to
W.A.G.'s comment. it appeared to be specially posted for your further concerns.
Peach..of course there is no ‘proof’ on any misuse of funds. Since no minutes or docs are EVER allowed to be taken out of meetings – minutes are shredded (this to me is so so suspicious as our church meetings seem to function like some CIA or FBI meeting), how can there be proof?? Since all transactions are ‘approved’ by the BOD and Missions dept (even when some of them can’t seem to recall having ever approve some of these transactions but somehow,mysteriously, documents are produced to show the proof thereafter), of course there is no proof on misuse of funds. And since the church has gotten 2 ‘independent’ sources to confirm that all is ok although the sources have not been provided ALL info and ALL docs, of course there is no proof.
To: Peach
I do not think that you have the peace as you signed off as 'Peace'.
you need not to choose to dislike or like what ever comments and statements posted by SC. he is being honest and transparent thus far. he did not hide anything. can you tell me who else can be so honest, sincere and tranparent in their reporting? yourself? deacons? SP? if you were to suggest that SP is sincere to resolve all these issues, why wait till now? He was given all opportunities and platforms to explain himself.. eg. at the AGM. he need not to even preach all kinds, made announcements of all kinds and call for EGM which is so high handed. i am truly sick with your preaching here again. please wake up from your spiriual slumber by all means! please read the comment by ABC and ABCD. the prove will soon be reveal.. as you suggest pray for God's wisdom and timing..
Dear Peach,(this is to your 1st comment)
Again we are very puzzled at your questions posted to the TT Members?
You are making allegations that we have said some "malicious" statements, etc,etc and again we humbly ask you to please quote those statements to us so that we can take ownership of it.
Do you want us to make a public appeal now, in this blog, that everyone out there who have spoken about SP and his family to spell out every word they said, give evidence in details, so that we all may know for sure what these "allegations" about SP & his family are? We have no idea what you are accusing us for?
This is the last time, we are responding to such accusations. If you do not hear from us in future to your such line of questioning, it is not because we have nothing to say or are afraid or we are admitting that we are wrong.
We will not reply because we have better things to write about.
Just a little side tracking here. Do you really want us to tell, in this blog, all the stories that we have heard through the many years in Calvary, about SP & his family?
Do you really want us to send people out to do an investigation and take photos of their possessions for all to see?
We, the TT members at the moment, are just interested in the issues that we have brought up i.e. we want to know the TRUTH, see some TRANSPARENCY in the accounting procedures, wanting the CONSTITUTION AMENDED to be less bias,and a TRUTH COMMITTEE set up by really independent people agreed upon by all parties.
As Calvary Today, we believe that we have not mentioned anything in this blog, regarding SP's or his family's personal life.
Oh Peach, you are very quick in replying. We see your next comment up already.
Peach is no 'peaches & cream,' but rather, speaks with forked tongue....
Hello calvarytoday--
Goody-goody good, well said Calvarytoday. i think 'Dear Peach' can learn something from calvarytoday lah..
Hi Peach,
I am encouraged that you like my ending; actually I ended with a prayer. As I have learnt over the last 27 years as a Christian (23 of which have been in CC), only God knows all things & my prayers should always allow God to carry out His Will. In this case, even my closing prayer have NOT been judgemental as I merely pray for God to bring the mess at CC to a swift end; plus, alternatively, for God to speak to me & others (like me) if we have heard Him wrong.
As regards your comment that I have been judgemental based on my statement "Our pulpit preaches that as Christians, we should have faith BUT yet our SP do not seem to "walk the talk"; I am no English Language professor BUT I think you fail to notice that I was not judging SP but merely stating that SP does not SEEM to "walk the talk" as was pointed out by others in some earlier comments in this blog.
Peach, obviously you do not know me or, if you do, then you do not know me well. Whatever I am voicing out lately at CC, I have done so on my own conviction that it is from the Lord & not on my own; as a couple of years ago the Lord had rebuked me when I failed to act as His mouthpiece & I have since promised Him that I will not fail Him again. I will not elaborate on the details here BUT I have shared this episode in my life with the Deacons & 3 Associate Pastors (PO, SK & RY) in an effort for them to understand where I am coming from as SP has not offended me personally & I have no axe to grind against him.
As regards your comment on the various unanswered questions of mine, I do NOT agree with you that I was insinuating anything. You obviously have failed to notice that I am merely sharing the struggles (& questions) within me in an effort to seek fellow Calvarites (who concur) to bring those questions to God in prayer.
Peach, as they say "Truth speaks LOUD & CLEAR". Whilst you have commented on various parts of my comment, there is NOT a single comment on the TRUTH behind my 3 meetings with the Deacons nor on ER's refusal to have a 4th meeting as I seek the Truth at CC.
THe TRUTH is Still Out There .....
Btw Peach, are you man enough to comment under the name which your parents took days to decide upon many, many years ago instead of hiding behind the pseudonym of Peach? Anyway, that's your call but do remember that everything has a price & God is watching all we do & listening to all we say.
Dear Peach
When SC said that SP does not walk the talk, I interpret to mean that if SP asks his sheep to "jump into the lake", he must jump first to show us how. (Of course, after he jumps, I wouldn't follow. Silly-meh!!) If SP asks his sheep to leave the church, he must leave first etc etc...just being cheeky.
I think what SC meant is that SP must do the following:-
1. Admit that the RM1.9m was transferred to his personal ministry without members' approval or knowledge. (He teaches that we must always confess our wrong-doing so that God's anointing is not lifted from us, so that there are no unforgiven sins in our lives at all times)
2. Return whatever that is left to Church missions dept. (He has preached on restitution after confession of wrong-doing)
3. He must shut down CIM because the members don't like it.(He has taught us that if we do anything that can cause another brother to stumble, we must refrain from doing that although we have the right to do it)
4. He must sell his Volvo(which he didn't pay for, anyway) and give the proceeds to CCC.(He has asked us to give sacrificiously and not store up treasures on earth. Besides, both he and his wife has another car each and with one backside, why need 2 or 3 cars.)
5. He must love and show love for his sheep. (He has preached on love many times)
6. He must avoid flying business class which is 4 times the cost of economy class. (He has taught us to be good stewards of God's money)
7. He must be humble and not waste 3 pages of Calvary News to advertise his "Tan Sri" conferment.
(He has preached on humility many times)
8. He must admit that his vision for Calvaryland was wrong because it is a now "wasted" warehouse for our old pews. Only 5 inmates in a RM10m project.
The list goes on...right, SC?
What the old pews are now stored at Calvaryland???
SM, do you feel that this will be the 'magic pill' that will solve this dilemma in our church?
Mr.E
I think what SM suggested is a good way to start the ball rolling. otherwise,do you have any better suggestions?
OK it is very obvious here that no one can make any comment which doesn't completely go along with the agenda here. The person comes under a number of attacks, some I feel are completely uncalled for.
Calvary Today - no I do not expect you(and members) to state all the rumours you have heard regarding anybody's personal life and family. All I was trying to say is that people have talked and interlink those issues with the issues you have brought up here. People have mentioned them and we can't deny that. Why SM has just mentioned he thinks SP should sell his car. Obviously there is a correlation between the RM1.9 mll and SP's personal live. It is OBVIOUS. I was just wondering, "should" there be?
Should we tell people what to do with their cars? Should we tell pastors they should only drive beat up protons because they need to live by example. Should their chidren only go to governtment schools and wear rags to church and live on meager donations, improper meals and so on. Is it wrong for any pastor to live well? Is it really? I think this is left to individual opinion. I honestly don't know the answer to this, so I rather not say anything because to tell someone, anyone...to sell their car, move into a smaller home, question their lifestyle, question their life choices to me is not very good. Nobody questions ours, they only ask us to give what we can. Once we give, are we going to bicker about others who we think don't give? Or comment and judge people who have more than us?
What I am saying is GENERALLY this is feeling like a witchhunt. Does it now?
I am all for what calvarytoday is trying to achieve though. What they outlined in a comment above. Yes, let the truth be known, whatever it may be, and when it comes out and unrefutable proof is shown, THEN let us comment. Not now, when there is so much we do't know despite the much we know and the lot we think we know.
And pls don't attack me for not using my name. I am not the only one here. abc, xyz and lots more use pseudonyms. Don't see why I am the only one being attacked on this matter)
hi all
Talking about witch hunt, it is on again. PAS`Timothy Ong just remove 4 of his head users without informing them.ONE OF THEM IS A DEACON. Those who were dismissed only found out from their co worker. again is this the way to thank those who have serve for many years. i wonder who directive is this from.
The 40th celeberation .Please remember to sign up to give support otherwise you name will be accidentally remove and their will come out with some excuses that it conincidence.
The church is telling all of you who oppose either you toe the line or you are on you own. SP way or the high way.
Peach, a few replies to yr questions:
SM commenting that SP should sell his volvo - isn't that what SP always tell the members,ie. to give more and more to CCC? He as the SP should be a good example and start first by selling off his free volvo since he already has a nice car.
Should we tell pastors they should only drive beat up protons because they ned to live by example - FYI that is not what ppl are asking and you and I may drive beat up protons ourselves,but not to fear, SP will NEVER drive a beat up proton.It goes against his tan sri status.
Should their children only go to govt schools and wear rags to church etc - Not to worry again, SP's children and grandchildren are well educated and have overseas education, they wear beautiful clothes and have loads of stuff that even many of our kids do not have. So don't you worry abt his family's wellbeing...
What I am saying is GENERALLY this feeling like a witchhunt - oh,you don't have to worry abt this as SP is one step ahead of you. even before many of us know what witchhunting in church means, SP has already started witchunting the members since AGM. So if you want to know more abt what witchhunt is,go ask him...I'm sure he'll be more than happy to explain to you.
Hi obvious. Look at how personal your attacks are. So sarcastic and with so much reproach.
Did anybody, SP included ever tell anyone specifically they should sell their car because they already have a few other nice ones at home. I don't think encouraging people to give is the same as specifically telling the person how they should give and what they should give.
Ok so people are not asking the pastor to drive a beat up old Proton, but they are asking that he sell his Volvo. Why his Volvo, why not another oe of the cars? How about at the same time give up his home? Live in a smaller one? If it's the Volvo because it's a gift, then how about asking him to give up ALL gifts. This is just getting a bit silly and down right ridiculous. Where does it stop? the point is: Does anybody have a right to INSIST on giving/selling away gifts which another receives? Did SP INSIST that we give up our luxuries to give to Church? Asking and insisting, pressuring, pushing, punishing because you don't give...i don't think I remember anyone doing this to me. How about you?
Is it wrong for anybody's family to be well educated and have good overseas education? I don't see what's the point here in being so sarcastic.
I don't think trying to find out which members is so "kecoh" tantamounts to a witchhunt. A witchhunt is when a group of people decide on a specific target and try to bring that target down no matter what the cost, no matterwhat the consequences, without conscience and without a Godly spirit. Slanderous accusations left, right and centre. Poisoning the minds of other people into believing what you want them to believe. Almost like the Klu Klux Klan.
Coming in to read this blog was really ok, until reading the comments section. The comments section is just filled with so much hate. Let's not point the finger always to just this one person, and maybe try and see how you sound when you write what you write.
Hi Siew Chyuan and TT members.
Greetings.
To
BOD save one.
if you are reading this .. take the tests that Bro Hong Meng wrote about and see how you fare.
fyi, i have witnessed your performance in the recent EGM and i must say it was disgusting.
You owe yourselves , your family members and most of all to GOD to take the test
Just to refresh your memory, there are 3 tests, namely
Stench test, Front page test and Mums's test
Wake up and don't offer blind support.
Hong Meng's comment in the posting that - "The auditor reported only on the accounts of CIM. It would appear he did not look at the transactions from the side of the Missions Department. It is this side that we are really concerned about. In effect he could be barking up the wrong tree. The queried transactions emanated from the Missions Department. By the time the transactions ended in CIM they were already outside of the Church governance processes." This sums up precisely what I had posed to a Deacon on Sun Aug 17 morning which was that :-
Since the BOD were concerned whether there was any conflict of interest committed by SP which may then lead to CBT & thus they had enagaged a criminal lawyer & a forensic auditors to address this concern, why then did the BOD send the forensic auditors to look at CIM's accounts which is NOT our concern since it is a personal ministry, plus it is the recipient of the funds.
Any conflict of interest &/or CBT would be at CC & NOT at CIM; thus obviously, we have waste our sacrificial church funds on a "non-starter" investigation.
Also did the forensic auditors live up to their name by conducting forensic tests on the age of the BOD &/or Missions Committee minutes which certain Deacons &/or Missions Committee members were not aware of their existence when this dubious transfer of CC funds to CIM was first revealed by God to some concerned Calvarites?
The said Deacon just looked at me dumbfounded & he actually looked very blur at that point when the TRUTH struck home that for all the efforts that they had put in in the run-up to the EGM, it was ALL in vain as they had got the watchdog (i.e. the forensic auditors) to bark up the wrong tree.
Liza, thanks for replying to some of my comments. I wish everyone would write more like you. At leasy when you write I don't feel like people are attacking me personally. What you are doing is I feel to try and make me understand what the concerns really are about.
So ok, TT has no personal grudge against SP and none of the TT members think he should sell his car. I do hope Obvious is not part of the TT because people like that could be detrimental to your cause. If the cause is as what you have outlined Liza, then I have not objections. I also want to know as you said:-
1.Why did the BOD resist the setting up of the Truth Commission
But I don't understand -> 2.Why were the legal consultations sought on spiritual & moral issues confronting the church?
Can you pls explain or tell me exactly what this means? Sincerely want to know.
Another thing Liza, maybe my concept of money is not what it should be. For me money is just money, I don't get upset about it, I don't hold on tight to it and I don't love it. So somehow the money issues doesn't really bug me I am sorry. But I do want to understanding this issue clearly from someone who can answer me properly like you, not from someone who makes sarcastic remarks about SP and so on. I just want to be told about your cause w/o all the so called assumptions on why, what the money is used for, how many cars, how big the house etc. Those things I don't want to know. I just want to know the church issues, not how any pastor spends money. That is not of my concern and it will never be. So, having said that, on the issue of $$ transfered from CC to CIM and also CARED. please tell me in simple words, why the money should not have been transfered. Is it only because no one knew about it that it should not be transfered, or is it also that the sum be too voluminous, and other any issues? I want to know also why it's considered as too much money and so on.
Really want to know ok, and really don't want to hear anymore personal issue or lifestyle info about any pastor. Thank you.
To all,
Since this blog is open minded enough to share each other's opinion. I'm here to share my opinion on SP luxury lifestyle.
Personally, I don't see any wrong for a minister of God to live luxuriously. Particularly, I see no wrong for SP to travel by Business Class or living or eating in expensive place. It is really between the person & God.
If I were to measure & expect the way SP should live his life, like selling his car, give up his house, travel as low class as possible. What if God use the same measurement to us.
May I ask, how many of the TT mature members are living in big bungalows/semi D cost RM2 million above? Driving Merz/BMW? Love to play golf every week? Send their kids oversea for education that cost RM1/2 million? Travel to Japan/Europe/USA...... for holiday every year? If you do the things above, aren't you also not living by an example. Why not give your Bungalow, Cars, Overseas holiday & etc to reach out more soul for God's Kingdom? 1 trip 4 person to Europe easily cost more than RM30k. How many small churches would be blessed by 1 person who can give up his Europe trip.
I know it is non of my business on how others should live their life. I know God has bless some of the TT members as good, faithful, committed Christian & also successful wealthy businessman. Can I say I'm correct to say that the Bible say how we measure a person, that is what God will measure unto us as well.
If TT members expect SP to sell his cars, house & everything the best to God. Can I expect some TT members to sell their bungalow, cars, & everything as well? If not, am I not hearing from a bunch of hypocrites? Pardon me, no mean to be "malicious".
Peach, Am I sarcastic? yes. But I am NOT sarcastic abt the fact that a pastor and his family can be blessed by God. I don't deny the fact that God can and should bless his servants.I am sarcastic that you can be so gullible and say the following comment which has NOTHING to do with SP's current lifestyle and wellbeing:
"Should we tell people what to do with their cars? Should we tell pastors they should only drive beat up protons because they need to live by example. Should their chidren only go to governtment schools and wear rags to church and live on meager donations, improper meals and so on. Is it wrong for any pastor to live well? Is it really? I think this is left to individual opinion. I honestly don't know the answer to this, so I rather not say anything because to tell someone, anyone...to sell their car, move into a smaller home, question their lifestyle, question their life choices to me is not very good. Nobody questions ours, they only ask us to give what we can. Once we give, are we going to bicker about others who we think don't give? Or comment and judge people who have more than us?"
And dont you worry...I am not a Teh Tarik member in case you decide to use my comment as a tool to attack the Teh Tarik Group. Neither do i want to ever be associated with the self righteous christians who call themselves SP supporters like yourself
To Obvious,
You are not Teh Tarik member? You already sounded like one.
To Peach & annonymous.
I am very blur about all this you talking about comparing the job of a pastor and the job of a outside office worker. How can you compare life of pastor and life of CEO?
If SP & family want to live CEO life, he should resign and go work in the world. That is why bible school so few students becoz people want to live CEO life. Oh yeah, none of SP children's, children in law or grandchildren go to bible school but all work in church full time. Oh yes with big titles so that they all can ask for big salary like outside office people. I cannot tell nowadays what is the true pastors calling and qualification.
I know many bible school students finish studying and now working in church typing letters and then so many pastors in church now got no bible school training. No wonder all pastors now want to live worldly CEO lifestyle. No need to work hard like CEO outside. whole family can use church to become family business and then can live worldly CEO life for whole family until grandchildren got guarantee jobs in church. I also want to start a church.
Anonymous, are u implying that I m lying then? well,it's up to u on what u want to think, except that my conscience is clear and I am NOT a teh tarik member. anyway, I find it quite amusing that you are comparing SP using CHURCH FUNDS to fly business class and a teh tarik member using his or her own hard earned money to fly business class. Truly hilarious.its like comparing an egg with a table.
Hi Anonymous,
As someone else had said "Do NOT BE JUDGEMENTAL".
If Obvious, like you, chooses to hide behind a Pseudonym, we all just have to respect that (in fact, I personally prefer that we do not use pseudonym as this will ensure that we are more responsible & careful with our words). Likewise, if Obvious had stated that he/she is not a Teh Tarik member, we just have to accept that. Anyway, as Christians, we should all remember that God is watching all our actions & listening to all our words; so do be mindful of what you comment as you will have to answer to God on Judgement Day.
Also, you should NOT be so judgemental about how a Teh Tarik member sound like. Do you know anyone of us well enough to make that statement?
For the benefit of all concerned, let me share with you that we do peer-watch each other & we often remind one another that we do NOT work on hearsay as we ONLY work on the TRUTH as revealed to us by God. For His namesake, we cannot afford to lose our credibilty & integrity as we are "On His Majesty's Service" & we cannot afford to fail Him.
Hello annonymous
which teh tarik member does obvious sound like?
you and peach also sound like Senior Pastor trying to justify to the world why he can keep all the money he took. you also sound like him now to make excuse why he can continue to take more money for his family to continue to live luxuriously.
you really sound like a guneratnam.
Dear Peach
read many of your comments. ultimately, my understanding is you want the concerned calvarites to fit into your agenda. your many requests for simple answers had been answered in all the posts. please take time to read and digest before any further demands is made.
i believed all these are not being personal on just one person. its very constructive and fair.
To: anonymous
It's okay to live a luxuriour life if you work hard for your money decently, BUT NOT if, as a SP, you abscond/pilfer/steal/misappropriate church funds which were meant for missions work!
Just because someone rebutts you does not make the person a supporter of the other side. It is quite obvious to me that alot of readers (non TT) cannot read what is written with an open mind. They resolve to attack and persecute people who have an opinion that differs from them. I cannot go on commenting amongst people who do not know how to be respectful, who are sarcastic, who are rude, who insult. These are not Christian values. I don't see how Christians can claim to be Christians and judge and comment using these methods. I also don't understand why so much hate and anger are pushed in the direction of ANYBODY who doesn't go along with the "let's crucify SP" gang. People are entitled to their opinions. Maybe some of you really need be more respectful here. This is not a discussion at all. It is a battlefield. I cannot be a part of it any longer and suffer the persecution simply for asking questions and having a different opinion less I be called names and such.
I have been a silent reader. I do have to say I agree with Peach's lastest comment. So much hateful words here. Are these words really coming out of Christians?
I notice everytime someone ask a question or give an opinion, so many people jump and accuse the person of being a supporter of the other side. Is there supposed to be sides even? Are we wanting to make the wedge bigger? Or are we wanting to try and understand each other?
So some people think it's not wrong a pastor to live a blessed life. Some people don't agree. So what? Agree to disagree nicely lah.
Must you call each other names, say things like youre another guneratnam like it's a bad name, (thus insulting the person's lineage), call people liars, insinuate people are stupid and need to read again and so on.
In what spirit are these so-called comments being written? In the spirit of brotherly love or what?
Quite alarming lah..
People like peach & anonymous should perhaps think twice or thrice before they comment further as their comments are VERY detrimental to SP & his supporters’ cause. whether you 2 are SP supporters or not, I think you are doing more harm than good for SP…so better think twice before u comment further. Let’s hv more substance when you want to defend SP and his CIM,otherwise might as well not defend.
and to address logically speaking...
so people who work in church including the pastors DON'T work hard? is that what you are insinuating? so only people who work outside can enjoy lots of money and luxurious things is it? church leaders cannot? Sorry, I disagree. I think that's a slightly primitive sort of assumption though, don't you think?
(aiyo i hope i'm not the next one to be accused of being on the other side)
don't think they are really meaning to defend tho. just giving opinion oni and asking some questions. mayb the english in the blog posts a bit hard to understand lor..i mean the english level a bit high, not to say cannot understand, but cannot digest bcos is not stated in simple terms. maybe is what peach is asking. pls answer simply. maybe shorten it a bit. cannot help meh?..like that also can argue..
To Completely blur,
You did pour out many opinions on my comments. I'm not going to answer minister's life or CEO life, but I'm going to address one thing that is important. Can God bless a full time minister financially? How much is too much? Is it up to us to gauge how much God should bless a pastor financially? I know many pastors kids were sponsored by willing & wealthy church members to study in International School till University abroad. Is that too much or the pastor steal from church offering? Wealthy church member bought a car for pastor, is that ok? It is not ok if we find it odd, isn't it? I find it odd too, but can this odd feeling permit me to judge & make bad assumption? Forget about all commandments on "Thou shall not judge"? Go figure.
To obvious, Siew Chyuan & guess who,
Why gets all heated up? I said obvious sounded 'like' TT member. Not definitely obvious is one TT member. I'm didn't know my comment is judgemental. I thought is ok to raise question like HM article entitle "Independent Auditor and Lawyer - Really???" by HM. If I'm judgemental to doubt obvious, isn't HM's article is judgemental as well?
After all, why get so shy who is TT member? Is obvious too shyful to be TT member? Or TT member too shyful to view obvious a TT member? I'm puzzled.
All these are just my questions. No mean to upset anyone.
Peach: excuse me? I'm a student at a govt school, n my mom drives a beatup proton. If your words are meant to be peaceful, too late: i'm already offended.
To Anonymous
No mean to upset anyone too,but me think u r no making sense. stealing from church offering is different from pastor kid being sponsored by willing & wealthy church members la. u dunno the difference between stealing and being sponsored?
so u only mention tat obvious sounding like tt member but why u never mention tat peach n u sound like guneratnam? is it too shyful to sound like guneratnam? ok mah..guneratnam is rich and powerful.
all these are also just my questions.u no get angry ok
To anonymous no.2,
Seriously. I'm not offended & I'm not on anyone site. But, if you insist to view my comments & judge me as on SP side, I'm happy to go there. Simply because I won't find you there. :)
anonymous no 2: And here we go with the name calling again. can u pls be more respectful?
student: I don't think peach is trying to offend you or anyone. he/she is simply saying how people expect pastors to live, like simple common people. it's not wrong to be simple and common, i am one too. but is it wrong for anybody to have more?
i don't think u shld take comments out of context.
To anonymous
Don worry,me oso seriously not offended.will be honored too if u can oso judge me as tt member, I will be happy to be called one as I know I won't find u there too :)
To desmond
i am puzzling y u never say anonymous is disrespectful when he judge obvious as tt member? u must be fair mah..if u say i am disrespectful,u oso shud saying he is. fair n square is wat u must b if u want to stay neutral la.cannot one sided one.
as for ur tots on wat logically speaking said, think he is not saying tat pastors dont work hard la...don jumping to conclusions mah. he said u can live luxurious life if u work hard and use hard earned money to live luxuriously and not use church offering to do tat la.read properly mah
anonymous 2: So w/o church offering how to pay ALL church workers who work hard for their money? how can u just simply say people "use" church offering? bcos by saying so, all church workers are affected.
i addressed you on the issue of respectfulness bcos you were disrespectful even after my call for us to try and be respectful to each other.
(the chinese slang words or lah and mah, does not hide your intention of trying to make yrself sound less rude)
Desmond: The trouble is that peach used the words 'govt school' and 'beatup proton' to typify a poorer living, ranking these characteristics right next to 'rags' and 'improper meals'. And all this in the context of 'do we expect SP to put his children through this HARDSHIP?' That ATTITUDE is what i take offence at.
My family isn't swimming in cash. Neither are we in the poorhouse. i believe that SP, many of the somewhat more affluent Damansara Heights congregation and POSSIBLY peach have lost touch with the lives of the middle and working class people.
Most Msians drive 'beatup protons' and most go to govt schools. Does this automatically qualify them as poor? Do all 'beatup proton'-drivers and 'govt-schoolgoers' eat improper meals and go to church in 'rags'?
Many Calvarites have been blessed by God, and that's good. What's not good is that in their affluent lifestyle (which i'm not saying is wrong) they have lost touch with the real world. They need to be reminded of what the average Msian goes through each day. If that necessitates the driving of a rattletrap jalopy, SO BE IT, IMHO.
-student-
P.s. my language may sound too good for a kid, I know, but really, I'm a secondary school student.
To desmond
even anonymous stil talking abt tt member after u made the call but u never say he is disrespectful. how can so bias wan?
its ok...u can call me rude..i don mind wan.as long as i don think i m rude lo.
use church offering is depending on wat is used for la. salary no problem..no one mention abt paying church workers their salary oso..why u jump away from topic la
anonymous2: because u need to be more responsible when you comment about something and understand what it infers and implies.
student: the average msians drive beat up protons? i think alot of average msians drive better cars than that. and most ppl i know go to govt schools. that comment was to address a previous comment that cited it wrong to go to better schools and have overseas education. not to indicate that gotn schools are bad. the phrase about rags and improper meals i think was just to site the exact opposite of eating in nicer places, and not to be in relation with the proton and the school. again, i feel you have taken it out of context. if you read the previous comments u will und what peach was actually addressing. and it certainly wasnt you.
To desmond
so when people saying abt guneratnam,it is consider disrespectful but when people saying abt tt member, it is not consider disrespectful ar? cute la u, trying to be neutral but quite hard to stay neutral hor :)
Desmond: "i think alot of average msians drive better cars than that". Beatup Nissans and old Toyota Corollas, maybe. Times have changed :).
Lets let Peach speak for himself (if he still comes here, that is; you guys really hit him badly). If you're a TTC, Mr. Desmond, keep it up!
However, I still believe the wealth phenomenon I mentioned is valid. Quite frankly, I hang out more with non-Christian friends than I do with Calvarite youths. These people, whom many Christians look upon as uncouth, unsaved, unenlightened heathens are wonderfully humble, down-to-earth, and sometimes even more Christianly than Christians.
It also speaks a lot for our Missions efforts that before I began talking to them, all my friends didn't know what goes on in a church, didn't know anything about Christianity other than 'it involves this guy called Jesus and a cross, somehow' and STILL DON'T know how to talk to a Christian other than remembering to watch what they say, for fear of offending them.
Dear Peach,
With regard to your questions, it does seem you want clarification, and that's perfectly fine. I do think you can find them in my 'Unanswered Questions' Open letter to SP & BOD, posted in this Blog. Please refer.
However, if indeed a face to face meeting helps, I'll be happy to meet you after service. I attend 2nd service at DH. Perhaps, you can ask if any of your friends, who might know me, would be able to identify me for you.
It's deeply regrettable that many commenting have not taken the issues seriously, and the true teachings of Christ have been taken/interpreted out of context. In particular, the life of Servanthood & Discipleship of those called to be pastors/ministers.
To anonymous
Goodness, I didn't know it cost RM1/2 million to send one child for overseas studies. So SP spent RM4 million to send his son and daughter to USA for studies. Now his daughter will spend RM2 million for her daughter who is studying in USA now. She will need another RM4 million for her other 2sons soon. Total RM10 million to educate SP's family.
Wah...SP has SO MUCH money-ah???
I think we need another forensic audit.
Thank you, anonymous for highlighting this Fact.
anonymous 2: I dont think it is rude to say things like "could you be a tt member" it is very different to bring a family name into the picture and talk about it in the way you did. how would you feel if people criticised your family name and then tells someone else in a bad way "you must be a lee, or tan, or foo, or chong" implying that its a bad thing. Can you not see the difference and why it is deemed disrespectful?
SM, i really don't think it costs RM1/2million to support someone studying overseas lah. Come on. I think SM you should really watch it. Yr comments are really uncalled for...trying to thank someone who was very clearly just exagerating on that point. What kind of spirit is this done in?
I have given up on this comment section too. There are some people here who are really 'too much' in every sense of the word.
CalvaryToday, I suggest that you start MODERATING the comments section and only allow comments which are fair, no-name calling, no deviation from the topic, unchristian like, so that we can stop all this bickering and focus on what tha purpose of this blog is. Please consider changing the settings to have comments moderated.
Thanks
I agree and second the motion. Comments section in this blog should be moderated by blog owners to ensure a more progressive and productive talk, rather than mindless mean chatter.
To desmond
still don see yr point wor...u do realise anonymous was oso disrespectful to tt member eventhough he never using sirname but i guess u r maybe not so neutral after all, so its ok,i understand your 'neutral' view point and anyway,if u think i m disrespect the name guneratnam,i accept it with an open heart lo..i too sleepy oredi to hv nice debate with u,so u win lo :) sorri yah for using the name guneratnam in vain. next time i use tt member name la, at least wont be judged as disrespectful. goodnite
i have just read all the comments by ppl here. Instead of going off-course, can we debate on 3 issues i noted. which are the -
1. Calvaryland being used as storage for old pews
2. witchhunt of 4 head ushers by Pas Timothy
3. RM10 million for SP's family's education
To SM,
I thought you are much better than I thought of you. The right calculation should be, RM1/2 x 2 SP kids is RM1 million, not RM4 million.
And the fact is we are not sure whether SP grandchildren will all go abroad or not, don't we. How SP can afford RM1 million to send them abroad. Honestly, I don't know. Do you know? For sure? Any evidence? Show us then. A bit tired of assumptions of stealing from church fund "theory".
I certainly can't fathom & explain God's provision miracles of multiplying 5 loaves & 2 fishes for His disciples, but certainly I won't jump into conclusion that involve any "stealing" or "bad" theories.
I'm not implying that you come up with all these theories. I know you are better than that, because we are in Christ.
Oh, now I see gdgirl has given up the 'SMS english' approach. Bra-vo.
My apologies for the sarcasm. gdgirl, do you have anything to say for yourself?
Dear anonymous
I'm not jumping into conclusions. I misread your "RM1/2" but don't you think RM1 million is not small change? And for her daughter to be able to afford to send her first daughter to USA, she must be earning a BIG salary from the church. We have all heard of Pas David's story that he couldn't even afford to repair his toilet flush. Think about it.
To SM,
I understand what u r saying. RM1 million is BIG!!! I don't think I'll ever be able to have that in my life.
It is ok to doubt where SP got the money...... later we also can check where the money came from.......and then we found out the money came from his high salary....... No matter how high his salary is, it still not sufficient to send his kids abroad........ "THEN HIS MUST BE STEALING FROM CHURCH FUND THRU CIM ACCOUNT". "MUST BE", "MUST BE"!
Any evidence on the conclusion made above? "COMMON SENSE LAH! LOOK AT EGM MEETING". "SP & BOD HIDE THIS HIDE THAT"
I believe most calvarites are matured enough to think & won't easily fall into any assumptions & theories. Unless I over evaluate them. I believe I won't. Afterall, my stand is with Jesus.
Also 1 more thing. Pas. David could not afford to repair his toilet bowl. Can I say I'm sympathetic to him? I just don't want to make a statement lightly, so to prevent being hunt down. I know Ps.David well. I believe he'll agree that I think he is blessed that God even create a miracle to his toilet bowl. If there are any complaint, let Ps. David make it himself.
I agree with you anonymous. 100% agree. How can anyone assume where the funds are coming from and how can anyone say the proof if bcos of what they think the church board has hidden from them. It may 'seem' like it. It still doesnt make it true.
And Patrick, there is no issue no.3That was an exageration on someone's part. Pls don't take that seriously! - See this is what I mean by irresponsible comments which cause others like patrick to start thinking it's true and is a valid 'issue' to be discussed.
Can't you all see what your irresponsible comments do? Unless of course this is the intention. To mislead people into thinking that your opinion is indeed the truth, when in actual fact, words are used so carelessly hear, it is very very upsetting and alarming.
To desmond and anonymous
let the TT and SP supporters say their feelings. nothing to be upset, more upsetting is our pastors and deacon using pseudos names writing here and twisting stories to put tt supporters in bad light. i tell you now, i get angry i will tell whole story why of SP get sack from lake club many years ago.
Patrickhee, yes please tell us.
Heard so many versions that you do not know which is the true one. What one ex-deacon told me was that it was Satan's work and not SP. That was what happened at the Lake Club according to him.
Dear Peach and others
Good to flood the blog with your comments, but be more democratic, i believed calvarytoday is not created for selfish reasons, hence the comments column are being published. wow.. 75 comments thus far, looks like calvarites are very SPLIT now, what is the root caused?( most of us already know--leadership crisis!) what happened to Malaysia now after the election? again, what is the root caused?
As suggested from "Reader from overseas" to Peach, please read all the posts and digest them before making futher demand, this reader is very democratic.. this is Malaysia. I am not sure now if Calvary church is democratic....For MANY WHO ENJOY FREE CHAT , there is a chat room in the cyber space to meet your needs.good to give constructive feedback anyway as i see it.
Dear all,
Just be careful of those who are there to create trouble or confusion.
You can tell by the way they write.
Dont get too upset about it.
Desmond, desmond,
The emphaisis should be on the word DECENTLY.
Yes, SP does work, pastors do work, but why are they not satisfied with the big, fat pay ( RM.15,000/- PER MONTH each!) that they are getting from Calvary Church? SP & SAP should live a very comfortable life just on their salaries & perks alone! Why did they covet the church money?
The Apostle Paul says, "Godliness with contentment is great gain"!
Dear Patrick,
Please do tell us all the true story of SP's Lake Club saga.
I heard from someone that he was a 'flasher' at the Lake Club, and another version was, he was a 'peeping tom'! A non-Christian doctor refused to attend Calvary Church's Christmas & Easter shows because he had personally seen SP purposely 'drop his towel' in front of everybody at the pool-side!
SP & SAP are living the life-style of the "rich & famous", which is very unbecoming of 'a servant of the Lord.' True servanthood can condescend to wash the feet of the disciples. True servanthood, does not covet the lifestyle, the titles, the Swiss Bank accounts, the luxury of the rich & famous.True servanthood thinks of the interests of others. True servanthood wears the 'apron of humility.'
i can just go on & on.
From this list alone, we can all see that SP & his family are not true servants of the Lord. They are 'in it for the money', sad to say!
Dear Mr. f,
How discerning of you. i agree with you 'cos I smell 'a rat,'too!
student, looks like gdgirl is not such a good girl after all and even has a high level of english herself. wonder why she couldn't digest the articles then....hmm...fishy
M. De Hann gives a great illustration of this at work. “A glass of water is left standing quietly and undisturbed on the shelf. The dust, germs, and the filth settle in the glass in an imperceptibly thin layer at the bottom. The water looks clear, sparkling, and harmless as it can be, but it nevertheless poisonous and filthy.
Now I take a teaspoon and stir up the water, and immediately something is apparent which could not be seen before. The water becomes cloudy, dark, and muddy, and a stench rises from the glass. I see in that water something I did not know was there, because the teaspoon stirred it up and made it visible. Did the teaspoon pollute the water? Did it cause it to become poisonous? Was it the fault of the teaspoon? You know the answer. The teaspoon was clean and sterile, but it stirred up the filth which was hidden in the glass. It was not the fault of the teaspoon at all.”
The following quote is taken from Berita Calvary.
Servants Maintain a Low Profile by Rick Warren
2008/09/23
Servants Maintain a Low Profile by Rick Warren
And all of you must put on the apron of humility, to serve one another; for the scripture says, “God resists the proud, but shows favor to the humble.” 1 Peter 5:5 (TEV)
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Real servants maintain a low profile. Servants don’t promote or call attention to themselves. Instead of acting to impress and dressing for success, they “put on the apron of humility, to serve one another” (1 Peter 5:5 TEV).
If recognized for their service, they humbly accept it but don’t allow notoriety to distract them from their work. Paul exposed a kind of service that appears to be spiritual but is really just a put-on, a show, an act to get attention. He called it “eyeservice,” serving in order to impress people with how spiritual we are (Ephesians 6:6 KJV; Colossians 3:22 KJV).
This was a sin of the Pharisees. They turned helping others, giving, and even prayer into a performance for others. Jesus hated this attitude and warned, “When you do good deeds, don’t try to show off. If you do, you won’t get a reward from your Father in heaven” (Matthew 6:1 CEV).
Self-promotion and servanthood don’t mix. Real servants don’t serve for the approval or applause of others. They live for an audience of One. As Paul said, “If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a servant of Christ” (Galatians 1:10 NIV).
Dear Ccily3,
Have you guy heard of SP - Sun Complex saga?
I met an ex-christian worker who claimed that he had witnessed the whole Sun complex saga involving SP eventhought I had refused to listen,then. All these comments have now prompt me there was element of truth. Today, that ex-christian worker is a muslim and is also well known in the corporate world. Who caused him to backslide???
KKJ
Dear All
When Calvary Church bought the present land, the church was given free membership to LAKE CLUB.
WHAT happen to the membership now??????????????????
To: Peach, Anonymous, gdgirl, & even desmond,
This quote is for you to take note of, taken from BeritaCalvary. Obviously you just want to comment to cause confusion but are not interested to read good articles in Berita Calvary which should help you to be more reasonable....
Gretchen Passantino
Christians Chriticizing Christians, Can It Be Biblical? by Bob and Gretchen Passantino
Christian leaders are accountable to God's people, whom the leaders serve, and should be "above reproach," "respectable," and "able to teach" (1 Tim. 3:2). A Christian leader who is a false teacher or immoral should be rebuked to encourage reform (Titus 1:13), and cannot separate his ministry from his life, expecting God to bless his preaching while privately he sins; he is "disqualified for every good work" (vv. 15-16).
Telling the truth about false teaching or immorality in the church corresponds with the ethics and truth which are to characterize the church. The church is the "salt of the earth" and "the light of the world" (Matt. 5:13-14) only if characterized by truthfulness (v. 11) and righteousness (v. 16). The Christian leader has an obligation to "hold firmly the trustworthy message as it has been taught, so that he can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it" (Titus 1:9). No Christian is happy when false teaching or immorality arises, but we cannot neglect responsibility for doctrinal and moral accountability.
Christians sometimes are uncomfortable with criticism within the church because they assume that public criticism, since it is painful, is also destructive. On the contrary, the "pain" of biblically conducted confrontation produces individual growth (1 Tim. 4:16), encourages others to Christian maturity (1 Tim. 5:19-20), promotes church strength (Eph. 4:15), and preserves the church's reputation in the world (1 Pet. 2:12).
Dear concerned members & readers,
This is a quick note to call everybody who is intending to write more to stop here for now.
Seriously, stop immediately.
Our friend Desmond here is obviously very one sided and eventhough he might not admit it, he is no neutral. Any comments made by TT Supporters are deemed as DISRESPECTFUL and RUDE by him but comments made by SP supporters or self proclaimed neutrals (who say ‘I am not on anybody’s side’…yeah rite) are deemed acceptable. Even the comment by Anonymous (who said he is not on anybody’s side….yeah rite again) on TT members sending their kids overseas which cost RM0.5mil is only deemed as ‘exaggerated’ by Desmond but when it was repeated by SM who misread the RM1/2m as RM1-2m (I don’t blame him as it does look like that…anonymous,maybe you should use decimal points next time in order not to confuse people), Desmond asked SM to watch it and called SM’s comments as being ‘uncalled for’.
Come on now, if you really want to be a neutral and are not on anybody’s side as many of you have proclaimed, pls act that way. Otherwise,just say upfront that you are SP’s supporters as it sure looks that way. No one will hunt you down if you admit you are SP supporters, but better to admit then to pretend to be a neutral.
As for Peach’s comment on witchhunt:
‘I don't think trying to find out which members is so "kecoh" tantamounts to a witchhunt. A witchhunt is when a group of people decide on a specific target and try to bring that target down no matter what the cost, no matterwhat the consequences, without conscience and without a Godly spirit. Slanderous accusations left, right and centre. Poisoning the minds of other people into believing what you want them to believe. Almost like the Klu Klux Klan. ‘
If you think asking for transparency and accountability tantamounts to ‘kecoh’ and if you think stopping people from serving, removing them from leadership positions just because they are not yes men tantamounts to ‘trying to find out which members is so kecoh’, then by all means, continue believing what you want to believe, ie. that SP did not do any witchhunt and that he was just ‘trying to find out which members is so ‘kecoh’ as you so gently put it.
And as for your comment on: ‘ I don't see how Christians can claim to be Christians and judge and comment using these methods.’
Same goes to you, Peach..same goes to you.
sorry, Calvary Today..didn't see your comment until I posted mine.Had to let it out of my system after reading all these comments. ok,won't post anymore. sorry
Dear concerned members & all,
Thanks for all your comments. It was like riding on a roller coaster, too fast for us to catch up. And I must commend you all for being so obedient to stop immediately when called to. Thanks again.
But once again, we want to remind all who make Comments to be CAUTIOUS with your words. Please try to stick to the issues that we are pursuing and NOT be SIDE-TRACKED. Please do not get TOO PERSONAL in your commenting about others.
Someone suggested that we moderate the comments. We apologize for not being able to accede to that request. We do not want to be accused of being unfair and bias in only allowing the comments that favour us to be posted. Readers may accuse us of deleting the SP supporters comments. So it is free for all to put in their comments but try to stick to the issues.
A friend sent this to us, “You were born to win, but to be a winner, you must plan to win, prepare to win, and expect to win.” - Zig Ziglar
All who blog here believe in what they say. It is evident in the way they defend their views. It is good to hear all parties, expressing their differences and putting their views across in the way each one knows how to and to the best of their ability, so that they can WIN. We need to learn to AGREE TO DISAGREE without hard feelings.
Now, the blog is open for comments again. This posting is about : Post EGM – Independent Lawyer and Auditor … Really?
For everyone posting comments, thought this is a good guideline.
The Window
A young couple moves into a new neighborhood.
The next morning, while they are eating breakfast,
the young woman sees her neighbor hang the wash outside.
That laundry is not very clean, she said, she doesn’t know how to wash correctly.
Perhaps she needs better laundry soap.
Her husband lookd on, but remained silent.
Every time her neighbor would hang her wash to dry, he young woman would make the same comments.
About one month later, the woman was surprised to see
a nice clean wash on the line and said to her husband:
Look! She has learned how to wash correctly. I wonder who taught her this.
The husband said:
I got up early this morning and cleaned our windows!
And so it is with life:
What we see when watching others, depends on the purity of the window through which we look.
Before we give any criticism, it might be a good idea to check our state of mind and ask ourselves if we are ready to see the good rather than to be looking for something in the person we are about to judge.
And oh yes! I almost forgot….
I see you today much clearer than I did yesterday…
And you?
_________________________
So be careful what you write – stick to the issues at hand.
OUR HEAVENLY FATHER IS WATCHING WHAT YOU WRITE!!
sorry administrator but i must break your rules this one time. I beh-tahan that comment by peach.
she ask why should we tell ppl what to do with their cars? why his volvo, why not his other cars? answer becoz the volvo in his name. the other car in church name, he cannot sell it. reason why he should sell his car is then the church don't have to pay so much maintenance cost. see how much mission funds and church a/cs use a month under Vehicle.
then peach say comments by ppl here has so much hate and anger. answer is, what our pastors feed us every sunday, is what ppl here are filled with now. did they feed the ppl hate? i hope not. all this is said in love. what goes in, that will come out. (a good example is why we are afraid to buy milk products fr china now)
Is it true that the Missions funds and Church a/c under Vehicle is used purely on maintenance of SP cars ONLY? And the church pays for maintenance for which cars? The ones in its name or the Volvo also? So confusing. Because if the Volvo is in his name then the church is paying for maintenance of the other cars under their name and so why should the Volvo be sold? Not disagreeing, just want to understand how true the statement is because it implies that the Vehicle portion of the accounts are solely for his cars and not church cars.
I think the reason why there are so many differences of opinion is that when people write, sometimes the reasons given may not be sufficient to justify the comment OR may be a bit unclear. They are written with assumptions that everyone already knows everything and has all the info, but when just reading from the comments alone, it's like there are holes in almost every statement. And the justifications for what people think do not seem to have enough bearing on the statements made.
Secondly, I don't think it's very fair to say that people are a product of what their church fills them with. Church is one day out of a week. It is the same as saying a grown person steals because his parents don't teach him otherwise. Don't tell me mature adults won't take responsibility for their own actions and find a way to pin the blame on someone/something they are against? Comments like this make the writer seem very one track minded.
I read somewhere above a proposal that comments should be moderated by the owners of the blog. Can't remember now who suggested, but doesn't matter. I think it's a great idea.
Its suggested that there's a CBT regarding transfer of funds to CIM without full BOD knowledge or acknowledgement in BOD minutes. In order to transfer funds, there must be a willing participant (sycophant) or cheque signatory. We are given to understand that PO is one of the signatory. Who else on the board is involved? We should grant those who voluntarily (or to save their proverbial butts) immunity if they fess up before its too late for them. May the Lord have mercy on them. What utter disappointment this Godly servants to their pastoral care, LG followers and friends and family alike. Pls. do the decent thing!!!
I understand what u r saying. RM1 million is BIG!!! I don't think I'll ever be able to have that in my life.
It is ok to doubt where SP got the money...... later we also can check where the money came from.......and then we found out the money came from his high salary....... No matter how high his salary is, it still not sufficient to send his kids abroad........ "THEN HIS MUST BE STEALING FROM CHURCH FUND THRU CIM ACCOUNT". "MUST BE", "MUST BE"!
Any evidence on the conclusion made above? "COMMON SENSE LAH! LOOK AT EGM MEETING". "SP & BOD HIDE THIS HIDE THAT"
I believe most calvarites are matured enough to think & won't easily fall into any assumptions & theories. Unless I over evaluate them. I believe I won't. Afterall, my stand is with Jesus.
This is my last post as anonymous here. Won't be commenting anymore here. So, other bloggers using anonymous to comment won't confuse all readers here.
Having nickname is indeed better. Just call me "My View". Ciao. God bless.
Good, now we discuss what i asked earlier.
i have just read all the comments by ppl here. Instead of going off-course, can we debate on 3 issues i noted. which are the -
1. Calvaryland being used as storage for old pews
2. witchhunt of 4 head ushers by Pas Timothy
Some old friends called me to tell me that church staff have called them and offered to sponsor them for the 40th anni. dinner. Any one of you out there got that offer?
The abuse of power have been going on for years. It's not something 'new.' The politicians of our nations are guilty of cronyism, well, so are SP & SAP. Guilty of cronyism (their children & grandchildren act like they are royal-blood & throw their weight around! Some church staff refers to C.L. as fu-mah-yeh, i.e. the king's son-in-law), abuse of power & privileges....imagine making themselves UN-retire-able! Sure lah! why should they retire when they are making so much money out of the church? Reliable sources tell us that Pam uses the missions car like her own car, petrol all paid and provided for as she uses it to fetch her children to school, fetch them home, go shopping, etc. And WHO DARES to tell her she is wrong?!! "May say gor," meh? (Literal translation - have not died before, meh?)
Wow, I personally think this blog is one of the blogs with so many hits. Of course it has not reach the level of m2day or Malaysiakini. At the rate it is going, pretty soon. Before anyone make a comment, I'm not being sarcastic, ok. On the contrary, I feel that more of our church members are concern about what is happening in CC and they want to "seek the truth". I like want Bro Siew Chyuan wrote, "The truth is out there..." That's why we are getting a lot of comments.
Sometimes I just wonder what the Lord would be thinking or saying about this whole issues. I really hope He would give me the answer. On the other hand, I'm not sure whether I'm prepared for it.
Frankly, I'm spiritually challenge over these whole issues. We have different interpretations of the words of God (using/interpreting according to their beliefs and 'advantage'), claiming to be with God and using the name of Jesus in their comments. I sincerely hope none of us are using the Lord's name in vain.
"Oh Lord, I pray and seek for Your forgiveness and mercy for myself, my family and my brothers and sisters in Christ. I know that we're going through a very rough and challenging trial. But I trust in You Lord that You would not test us beyond our ability, that You would show us a way out, and that by going through these trials, if we continue to seek Your ways and your methods, at the end of it all Your truth would prevail and our faith in You would be strengthened. Amen."
God bless.
i want justice ...
You only stopped short of referring to C.L. as Khairy ...
So true ...
Truth Prevails..."From what I have heard from reliable sources, both S.P. and his wife have been making excuses for not returning the RM 1.9million to the church coffers. Their favourite excuse is, "It is the deacons who have given us this money. If we return it, it will show that we admit we are wrong. How can we be wrong when the deacons gave us this money?"
For the truth to prevails it stands to reason that PO (and any sycophant of the same ilk) and the rest of BOD knowingly or unknowingly invoved in the illegitimate or dubious transfer of funds (designated for or otherwise for missions etc)to CIM to admit that they were wrong. As good stewards of God's property they should exercise due diligence to ensure that all church funds are fully accounted for and channeled. Church folks in good faith sacrifice in order to make the offerings and not to pad SP retirement fund (CIM or whatever his notion of it). So this is a first salvo to the BOD concerned to CONfess in order to show that you were sincerely wrong to beckon or bend to SP behest or whim. Your CONtriteness and willingness to admit you were wrong will not only grant you immunity but shows that you remain good stewards/stewardess of our Lord. Trust me all it takes is one or two (which already is happening) of you to abandon the creaking shipboard. You do not want to be left holding the bag!!! You see already SP/SAP is absolving themselves and laying the blame on PO and BOD for the mistranfer. Divide and conquer has been the MO of the CEO. Remember SP father wanted him to be a lawyer in one of his sermons we heard ealrier this year. Govern yourself accordingly.
To BOD concerned,
Sorry you can't take the "fifth amendment" or recuse yourself from unravelling the mess that happened under your watch. Your proactiveness is required. For each and everyone of us Calvarites its incumbent upon us to do the right thing. Or all our worship and faithfullness will sound hollow in the light and for our younger generation (yes your kids and my kids)to perceive.
All God's Stewards/Stewardess are called...
To BOD concerned...
Step 1. SP/SAP has implicitly implied that the funds transferred to CIM may not be koshered. Recant and recalled the funds is your first responsibility. If there were incompetency ivolved we can understand, contriteness and asking for the wrong to be righted is all that is required. This is the first step to reconciliation of not only God's accounts but also to Calvarites family.
Alas and alack, all our appeals to the BOD may well fall on deaf ears! Why? They have probably eaten too much of SP's saliva, you know, all those gifts from overseas, free makan, etc. SP knows how to butter them up for the kill! Those who disagree with him are advised in no uncertain terms to "leave the church,' and one ex-deacon (that I know of) did just that.
My sources tell me that at least one particular deacon (out of the six loyalists) have accepted financial favours from SP. Hence, they defend him till the end, even to the extent of 'covering up' for him.
oh goody, the anonymous who wants to b calld 'my view'- the one who posted the same comment twice (huh?) has promised that he will no longer comment in this website. hope u keep to yr word and not come in again as another nick name...promises are meant to b kept n not broken..remember
Sorry we should also not exclude previous ex-deacons per above. It will be refreshing to have them acknowledge past misdeeds or dubious (i.e. in hindsight they will have make their stand forthrightly) transactions.
Ex-deacon (or deaconness?) are summarily included as far as we should be concerned. Prior to all this they have no cachet. After all the foul odor and stench I will give lots of credence to their willingness to come forward, expecially those who quit or leave the church for the right Christian principle/ethics. I'm sure we know lots of them and they should be good Christian character witnesses in this trial of public forum which will eventually lead to CC forum/sanctum.
I would suggest that all Calvarites (young and old alike) petition BOD. All it takes is more than a few to rupture this so called loyalist band. There is a saying there is no honour among thieves. Recall PTL saga, some loyalists eventually recant, repent because of their conscience. Enough is enough. We can't take this anymore.
Ex-deacons/deaconess (especially those who are still serving in church or external ministries) you are called. If you are not for Truth you are against it. There is no fence-sitting.
Hi patrickhee,
yup,the 2 points u noted are indeed relevant & so puzzling indeed. calvaryland is indeed a big white elephant, an abandoned project..once ccc came into the picture, calvaryland was ignored and put aside to 'fend for itself'.guess SP lost interest in calvaryland.
As for the witch hunt done by Ps Timothy, all I can say is, it is not his perogative but his big boss's direct order. but of course his big boss will say he doesn't even know about this witch hunt and that it was all Ps Timothy's doings. Poor Ps Timothy will then end up taking all the blame and will need to apologize to his big boss for not asking for his permission before doing something as drastic as this.
go figure...
To Mad,
I'm not sure if you can call the 'removal' of 4 head ushers a witch hunt as we do not know the reason(s) for it. It could be that Pas Timothy may have forgotten to include them but it would be strange for a pastor who is in charge of ushering ministry not to know who are his head ushers. After all, what kind of threat can they pose? They are not considered church leaders and don't receive recognition for their long service unlike SCG teachers and LG leaders.
In fact, the church is already short of head ushers and ushers and it serves no purpose to remove the existing ones. Think how many ushers will be needed for CCC.
Let's not just jump to conclusions and call it a witch hunt.
regards
beng soon..from what I heard, Ps Timothy's excuse was that he did not know if they still want to serve as head ushers, so instead of double checking with them, he just removed them and reappointed other people to take their place. reasonable excuse? I think not...like u mentioned, already,they are not enough people serving in church,and they had to go remove those who have been serving faithfully for so long and who never indicated that they wanted to stop serving. such a funny move...can't think of another better name than witch hunt though.
I think that's very typical of alot of people working in church. The excuse of not knowing whether they want to serve and then not asking and just excluding someone has happened many times before. Sometimes I think it's a lack of gutts to confront someone so the easy way out is to just ignore and exclude. This is not related to whatever else being discusse about money and so on, but I just wanted to say here that the inadequacies, lack of PR skills or people skills is very apparant among alot of church leaders and workers. They can also be very disorganised and unsystematic. Perhaps this lack of competency is also behind the other issues being faced. Just not competent enough to handle things properly then get themselves into this mess and when confronted with opposition, don't know how to handle it, "gelabar" and sort of fumble their way through explanations. It doesn't make them bad or evil people, they're just inadequately skilled.
Nobody (Deacon or assoc pastor) does anything in church without SP's approval or instruction whether direct or indirect and whether implied or not.
Read the constitution, nobody can do anything without his approval. He has to be in EVERY meeting in the church or at least he has to be informed.
Yes, pastors DEFINITELY need PR skills as they deal with people all the time but, sad to say, many of them lack such skills - some do NOT even have any to start with. They should attend more PR training and, more importantly, change their attitudes.
When I stood down as a leader, particularly as a communion server and altar worker,there was NOT even a note of thanks - no appreciation at all.
This, to me, is NOT GRATITUDE at all, yet our pastors preach about showing gratitude to God.
Dear brothers and sisters in Christ (I'm addressing our pastors - I still consider them my pastors although at times my respect admittedly wanes a little bit), if you can't show gratitude to your fellow brothers whom you can see, how can you show gratitude to God whom you cannot see. Think about it.
Walk the talk, and God will be glad
Ex-LG leader, communion leader and altar worker,
I agree TOTALLY with you. Our pastors need PR skills, because their skills or the lack of them, sometimes cause us who serve in various capacities to think we are not appreciated. Yeah, some may say, well, God knows your works. But then, we are only human and we also need appreciation from fellow human too.
Pastors and church workers, the ball is in your courts. You certainly can do with some PR skills. Show gratitude not only to God (which I believe you do) but also to human too(including non-believers too).
I'm praying for all of you. God bless.
From what I understand, Ps. Timothy have already apologised to the deacon head-usher claiming that he didn't know whether this head usher still wanted to continue to serve or not! What a laugh!
Well, this deacon has been now re-instated.
Yes, I would say that this is a witch-hunt or a crackdown. If there is ISA in the constitution then all those in the opposition party (viz. TT crew & supporters)or even Calvary Today bloggers would be arrested & thrown into Calvary Prison....located in Calvary Land! All those old pews (which are still very new, by the way - what a waste of church funds!) could be used for ISA-a-la-Calvary prisoners under detention, for them to sleep on.
"Anonymous Mr. F said...
Nobody (Deacon or assoc pastor) does anything in church without SP's approval or instruction whether direct or indirect and whether implied or not.
Read the constitution, nobody can do anything without his approval. He has to be in EVERY meeting in the church or at least he has to be informed."
This is called leadership.
To debate time n logically speaking,
I had the chance to speak to 2 of the head ushers who were 'dropped' and they indicated they are not serving in the ushering ministry any more. Whether they came to this decision before or after the new duty roster was issued, they did not say.
If they happen to read this blog, let me say on behalf of the 1030 HUs that their commitment to serve has never been questioned and their past service has been greatly appreciated.
On the subject of witch hunting/crackdown, a few more head ushers would have been 'axed' by now for signing the various petitions.
Would you be surprised if you came for a church service one day and there are no ushers to greet you at the door, show you to a seat or collect your offerings?
regards
Hi Logically Speaking,
Well, logically speaking, maybe Pas Tim is testing the water, not so much as to walk like Peter (not Peter Ong, but Peter, the original disciple of our Lord), but to see whether those "removed" - either accidentally or deliberately, we leave that to Pas Tim and God - will protest or at least make some noise.
Well, if they do, oophs sorry, typo error (fingers a bit stiff mah) their names will be included again, ... end of story. This is certainly NOT GRATITUDE.
Pas Tim, think about it.
Hi Beng Soon,
You mean CC has 1030 Head Ushers? Correct me if I'm wrong, because numbers in CC are quite subjective these days, eg. SP claims CC network has more 8k worshippers. How he came to that figure, I dunno. Maybe Pas Ray got the figures all mixed up, and maybe he wanted to make his boss happy, or maybe, maybe, maybe, SP wanted to impress his international audience (because in Church Growth International circle, you can't be panel speaker if your church has only 1k or 2k or 3k people - it must be a megachurch).
Rejoice in the Lord... always.
Dear Beng Soon,
Commenting on your question "Would you be surprised if you came for a church service one day and there are no ushers to greet you at the door, show you to a seat or collect your offerings?"
Well, most of the time I sit where I want. Sometimes, to be very, very frank - with no malice intended (nowadays must be very careful, otherwise can be charged with MALICE)- ushers spoil the mood of worshippers when they insist they sit in certain pews.
On collections, no problem as church can place collection boxes at exits with guards (not parking stewards, real guards) standing next to them. We can drop offerings into them.
On shaking hands, also no problem. We go to church to worship God, shaking or no shaking hands no big issue (again, no malice intended), as the Holy Spirit welcomes us in the spirit. PTL.
To: readers
since everyone now are pouring out their hearts contents, i too want to pour it out..i had been containing these within me for some sometime now. 1)Calvary church is going to celebrate 40th anniversary, we shall call it a family reunion then! by right all of us as brothers and sisters should be very proud and happy for having a happy and joyful gathering( and knowing the anniversary should be 47th instead of 40th)..but all of us in our conscience knew that we can no longer come together as a family, we are so split, so broken, so hurt, so painful ..how are we going to get together?( in bahasa: makan tak larat, mandi tak basah,tidur tak lena!)
2. I felt ashame at times now, to talk about calvary church, because people out there always commented that this is a elite church.. i dare not to bring poor people to attend this church, i really dont know how they can fit in, in many occassions and circumstances.
3. i am reluctant to bring fellow colleagues and friends to this church for few years now because, deep in my spirit, i knew something is not right here, how am i going to explain all these?
4. dont reponse by telling me to go other church, i would know when the Lord spoke. dont tell me i have no faith-my faith is between me and God.
5. i appeal to leadership in our church to truly come before God in repentance, that is what i sensed what the Lord want us to do.
Hi Math Expert,
I agree with you. I also dunno how SP got >8k worshippers at CC network. DH & satellite only got +3k worshippers (including children) that means outreaches still under CC support (maybe 10 or so)got +5k, ie. +500 each. How can? Some, like Sekinchan only got less than 30 including Sunday School.
I also know how to count a bit!
You mean SP is not telling the truth again on the no. of worshippers. Ayoh, he must stop this nonsense. This is definitely NOT right. Can Patrick Wong explain (cut out the tortoise story this time).
Patrick Wong, where are you? Can you explain SP's figure of +8k? You seem to be able to read SP's mind and justify his actions. Please clarify for transparency sake.
Maybe SP was counting the hands & the legs of the worshippers - each has 2 hands & 2 legs to come to church, so simple arithmetics tell us (no need to be maths expert lah!), the figure will be 2000 x 4 = 8000! Voila, there you go!
Addressing Leadership,
There are many types of leadership styles, or even leadership characters in the world. But what we want to see in the church of the Lord Jesus Christ is NOT controlling leadership, nor leadership that makes a scapegoat of other pastors like RY & Timothy by putting the blame on them, nor leadership that is dishonest, lack transparency, abusive AND corrupted.
URGENT SITUATION VACANT.
The Person : sincere, honest, trustworthy, straightforward and passionate for the Lord's work to apply.
The Job : Inform all church pastors, deacons and church staff to log on to calvarytoday. (how can Patrick Wong know you are calling for him when he is not reading this?)
The Pay : You may be given a good rebuke for being a Messenger of _____.
truth prevails ...
Its still leadership. You might not like it or agree with it but it's still leadership.
Its effective leadership.
Dear having fun,
Please stop using foul language or I will have to delete your comments. If this blog offends you, please do not log in to read.
I am delete your comments that contain unpleasant language.
To all readers,
DO NOT USE HARSH, FOUL OR VULGAR WORDS IN THIS BLOG OR IT WILL BE DELETED.
Addressing Leadership,
Are you saying that you condone or approve such corrupted, un-christlike leadership in the church? By saying that it is effective leadership shows your warped thinking! Effective leadership in the church is 'servanthood leadership,' being a good, caring shepherd to God's people & NOT "lording it over God's people."
I suppose you are not well-versed in scriptures to say such a thing, so I forgive you for your ignorance.
To anonymous,
I'm your "lin beh".
Are you Sam? Hon Meng? or Winslow? You are bullshitting just like them.
Uhhhh ... Truth Prevails ...
Relax ... take a deep breath ... and count to 10 ...
Then slowly read what I said ... I just said that the fact that SP runs a tight ship shows him as a very effective leader. I made no claim for his morality or his spirituality.
In the spirit of good Christian values which we here at Calvary Today adhere to, I think I deserve an apology for having to receive an accusation in which you claim that I have "warped thinking" and "ignorant."
Dear "Having Lots of Fun"
I don't know your agenda, but I'm NOT who you think I am. Anyway, here's my sincere prayer for you my dear brother/sister, whoever you are.
Our Heavenly Father who art in heaven,
Forgive us for our shortcomings as we forgive our fellow brethren for their shortcomings too.
I stand in the gap for "Having Fun", whoever he or she is. I pray that you will deliver him/her from the lack of decency and judgmental inclinations. I plead the blood of Jesus to cover him/her and take away any bitterness in his/her spirit.
I know you will forgive him/her as we also forgive him/her because I know You are a forgiving Father.
I pray your blessings upon "Having Fun", whoever he/she is because he/she is my brethren in Christ.
In the name of Christ our Lord. Amen
The Lord's servant, Winslow
BTW, "Having Lots of Fun",
If you have anything against me, email me at winslow@gmail.com and please do NOT vent it out in this blog. We must respect each other.
P.S.
I really want to hear from you.
Hello : Brothers and Sisters
i remember reading the post on Is Calvary 47th or 40th? last few days many friends ask me and invite me go for the Dinner for Free... what do you think? Should i go or not? My answer is NO. why ? i am serious about this issue. What is right is right and What is wrong is wrong. No compromise. i cant tell my children you are 10 yrs old. nex
t minutes, i sed due to some reasons u r now 5 yrs old.
To all,
'Having Lots of Fun' is a sad sad person..he/she needs deliverance. We should ignore people like this and just pray for them...their lives are too pitiful so they have to resort to using crude/vulgar words to satisfy their tormented souls
Dear Not going for dinner, i support your stand in not going, as regardless of whether it is free or not, it is the principle of the whole thing. The whole basis of this anniversary dinner is wrong, so what's to celebrate? we might as well stay home and pray.
Dear Ccily3
You said:
I heard from someone that he was a 'flasher' at the Lake Club, and another version was, he was a 'peeping tom'! A non-Christian doctor refused to attend Calvary Church's Christmas & Easter shows because he had personally seen SP purposely 'drop his towel' in front of everybody at the pool-side!
I heard SP gave his answers as below;
To Lake Club management:
"I am only answerable to God not to man"
To the Assemlies of God committee:
"Is the IRISH COFFEE that caused him to do the above."
2 different answers AGAIN
late cub..wow, he actually answered that?? what a con man...and to think all these years, I have been respecting him as a man of God. We have been deceived :(
Dear Patrickhee
I also got a call to go for the dinner (40th Anni) FREE !!!!! by an ex-staff but turned it down.
What is the point of celebrating when so many are hurting?
Winslow,
Yes. I don't like you cause you are a stuckup person. Infact, I don't like alot of TT members. They are all filthy rich & prideful. They don't walk the talk.
I have problems with you why can't I vent it here. Everybody doing the same here, why can I? You scared of people telling your bad things to the world? Get over it. When I really angry, I'll tell everyone about all the sexual thing some of you commit.
Hi math expert (claim only mah),
Sorry if I mislead you to think there were 1,030 head ushers. Actually I meant the 10.30 am service head ushers at CCDH.
regards
Dear Having Lots of fun
Please say this prayer
Dear Heavenly Father, I ask You first to forgive me for my sins and cleanse me from any area where I have allowed the devil to enter my life. I renounce any involvement with the works of darkness. In the name of Jesus, I now cancel every curse, and Father, I ask You to forgive the people who have spoken them against me. I thank you that those curses will no longer operate against me. In Jesus' name, they are broken right now, by the power of Almighty God. I cancel every evil that was spoken against me and ask You to cover me and my family with Your protection according to Your Word in Psalm 91. I ask this is the name of Jesus. Amen.
Dear "Having lots of fun"
Dunno how to describe you. May God have mercy on you. Take up Winslow's offer. Write to him but not on this blog.
Teh Tarik....Teh Tarik
SMOKESCREENS.
According to the Oxford Dictionary, smokescreens are : i). Clouds of smoke made to hide military operations; ii). Explaination, etc. designed to mislead.
These 2 should not have their places in a God-fearing church or is it? Read on……….
The Good.
The members of CC especially the Concerned Calvarite or TT group who questioned the way the finances were being siphoned off ( one BOD said it was a strong word, but let's call a spade, a spade).
They were being made aware that all is not right, with the accounts of the external ministries never seeing the light of day and worse, account of CIM, where the funds were simply out of bounds.
The Bad.
The pastor who lit the 1st. smoke screen and declared all is well with the external ministries.
Haven't you heard of 'Desa Amal Jireh', he asked and went on to describe it's activities.
He knew what the group was asking or after, but he used it as a red herring to divert the attention from all those ministries of CC which had been designated as external, so that they do not have to present the accounts for scrutiny.
The Ugly
The sp, who, when questioned about the designated funds being transferred to CIM, blah out, "To go to India, you need to travel"
Now, to say that was the most profound statement of the century would be a gross understatement of the century.
I believe I was the most stupidest (can't find a better superlative) person in the egm that nite; heard a lot of the youths were laughing when the statement was made (could they be laughing at my stupidity?)
I didn't know to go to India, one needs to travel.
Here, I'm issuing a warning to my ex-geography teachers wherever they are.
Don't ever let me see you again, you never taught me that India was so far away, I always thought it was at my backyard.
Then again, the smokescreen was designed to deceived the gullible or should I say those whose loyalty is so blind to the extend they will swallow any red herrings being thrown to them;
As the sayings goes, there is none so blind as those who won't see.
(p/s : the difference between the bad & the ugly is: the bad covered-up the misdeeds, the ugly covered-up and used the money as well).
Before signing off, here's a song to alleviate the bitter taste in your mouth after reading this article;
"Smokescreens are made of these, who am I to disagree ?
I've travelled the world and the seven seas, everybody's (sp) looking for something (money of course)
Some of them (sp) want to use you (bod), some of them want to be used by you.
Some of them want to abuse you, some of them want to be abused."
(To be sung to the tune of "Sweet Dreams" by Annie Lennox).
Let the righteousness of God prevail and the Truth that sets us free will not only dissipate, but clear whatever smokescreens they have lit, so the church would be set on the right path again.
The Good, The Bad & The Ugly.
After some of the smoke have cleared, blockbusters coming soon to your screens :-
1)The Truth Is Out There (Not at the EGM)(X-Files)
2)Money Not Enough (Money Not Enough I,II & III)
3)For A few Dollars More (Clint Eastwood classic of the same name).
4)SP Asks For More (Oliver Twist).
5)I Know What You Did Last Time (I Know What You Did Last Summer).
6)A Sin Named Desire (A Streetcar Named Desire)
In the meantime, the saga goes on……….......
Dear "Having lots of fun"
Brother, let me pray for you like Winslow did.
Our Lord Jesus, I plead your blood to cover my brother for all the ugly things he has said. I know he is not the one saying them, but the Devil in him.
Devil, I command you to let go of my brother. You certainly have no control over him as Christ has won the final victory.
Despite his deep hatred and bitterness, Lord I pray you will set him free, and I thank you for it.
In Jesus' name. Amen
"Having lots of fun", I urge you brother to let go of your hatred and bitterness, either for yourself or for somebody else. It's not worth it. God loves you, and He really does. And I love you too as God would enable me.
To: Leadership
I agree with you that SP had leadership qualities..just like what Hitler and Stalin had. I'm sure if he was in the secular world, he would either be a powerful Mafia Boss or maybe even rule a Communist country successfully, the kind where the ruler reaps all the country's wealth and benefits while the citizens die hungry.
to : winslow,bad,good,ugly and the prayer warrior
Praise the Lord for prayers and interceding for people who had gone wayward--eg-'having fun'.
all readers, time for us to intercede and pray for the leadership and those hurting calvarites. yes agreed with 'not going for dinner' . instead we shall pray for those going for the dinner, may the dinner( the occassion) reversed to a repentance and deliverance service for whoever there. may God pour forth His conviction at the dinner. amen
Dear brothers & sisters in Christ,
We thank you for your prayers for those who have commented negatively here. Indeed nothing works better than PRAYER. Apostle Paul teaches us to, “Correct, rebuke and encourage – with great patience and careful instruction” (2 Tim 4:2) so, let us respond to such comments with “great patience and careful instruction”. Let us all refrain from anger and harsh words.
To our dear brothers and sisters who have received some unkind remarks through this blog, please be encouraged by these words from the Bible, "Because you have made the Lord, who is my refuge, even the Most High, your dwelling place, no evil shall befall you, nor shall any plague come near your dwelling; for He shall give His angels charge over you, to keep you in all your ways." (Ps 91:9-11)
To the rest of us who are pursuing on, take hold of this promise, “For God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power and of love and of a sound mind” (2 Tim 1:7).
We need to continue to pray for everyone and don’t forget to put on these –
“the whole armour of God,…
…having girded your waist with truth,
…having put on the breastplate of righteousness,
…having shod your feet with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
…taking the shield of faith with which you will be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked one.
…take the helmet of salvation,
…the sword of the Spirit, which is the Word of God.” (Eph 6:13-17)
God bless.
to: dear dear all
1.Calvarytoday--good job.my respect and support for your cause.
Do log on --this is for calvarytoday's friendly.
2.Calvarytoday unfriendly-- log on at your own risk.
3 Calvarytoday's hatred-- do log out.
I would say Calvary public disrepute coincide when SP irish creamed or flash misbehaviour at the Lake Club which culminate in his dismissal as a religous leader in the public domain.
Our beloved leader gave his answers as below;
To Lake Club management:
"I am only answerable to God not to man"
To the Assemlies of God committee:
"Is the IRISH COFFEE that caused him to do the above."
He forgot that he has to render to Ceasar what is rightfully Ceasar's authority. This is CONtrary to his pulpit message to us ordinary Calvarites.
Addressing Leadership:
I had wanted to reply you earlier but the Internet Explorer kept crashing on me! But I am thankful that someone else replied you.
My response to you was on the basis of what you had said & not on what you had NOT said! So, on that basis alone you sounded like you approved of SP's dictatorial leadership, hence my indignant reply!
However, as you have requested, I will apologize for using remarks like 'warped thinking' and 'ignorant' which had hurt your feelings. All this in the same spirit of goodwill & brotherhood on CalvaryToday.
my appeal to those talking abt Lakeclub. Please slow down, i think the concern calvarites more concern on governance, accountability and transparency. if you guy really need to pursue this issue, perhaps ,do it privately-- dun condemn me here. i am the tt person ok. forgive me if you are offended..
Dear Late Cub,
Thank you for your answer! I laughed until tears rolled down my cheeks!
The Irish Coffee made him do it, ah?
"I heard SP gave his answers as below;
To Lake Club management:
"I am only answerable to God not to man"
To the Assemlies of God committee:
"Is the IRISH COFFEE that caused him to do the above."
2 different answers AGAIN"
.... AND GAVE 2 DIFFERENT ANSWERS?
So it is his character then, to lie to try to cover up! And now he & SAP are saying that the BOD made him (& her) do those things (steal money, loh!)?
October 10, 2008 1:28 PM
Implicit in his message last Sunday was a veiled threat to those that continue to mock and ridicule him here and elsewhere. He will bring down the Pillars of Church authority on those that will not toe or come to heel. I guess he couldn't bring it down on Head usher/Deacon and his supporters
Dear powerpoint..no worries, think yr statement is fair. I guess some of us were quite annoyed that some supporters of Sn Pastor and selfcalled 'neutrals' kept attacking Teh Tarik members and supporters and kept defending SP's misuse of funds. but I agree, perhaps we need to stick to the many issues addressed in the posts on the blog. We'll leave all the Sun Complex and Lake Club incidences for private discussion hopefully
You may continue to ask why SP able to get BOD including TO to do his bidding. Carrots and STICKS.
SP and SAP, beacause of their very positions, able to know every relevant dirty secrets and skeletons in every Calvarite family, be it husbands philandering or indiscretions, infidelities or extramarital or cicular activities, cheating wives,
naughty sons or daughters even in laws that run afoul of local or Christian authorities. Rest assured even in SP family and close ones. close
Sorry I have to remain anon because I have to maintain my spouse reputation. Some of you can understand for you know your dear ones/ spouse has been muted or cancelloed out. Kudos to those who continue to speak outright. We must not be muted when the threat of "indecent" exposure hang over us.
Hey anon ....indecent exposure for flasher... verily verily apt
BOD do "WALK THE TALK". Do not fear persecution or the STICK. Rest assured there will be a BLOWBACK if the stick is wielded. Even in SP and family (close ones too) there are hidden skeletons.
Of course ask spouse and pray for the Lord's guidance.
OK... Now the real and meaty stuff.
What's the AGENDA of SP and his supporters to all the detractors and this blog to flourish.
1. To cull the herd
2. To steal CC from members via CCC. To beggar/bankrupt CC through onerous debts and obligations, from one entity to another ( perhaps answering query about Calvaryland).
3. CIM will be another family "business" in conjuntion with CCC..
So whats the likely scenario. Besides internal there are external (incl. international) forces that are at work.
For we have "barbarians at the gates".
Let's make this our prayer daily
Psalm 91
Safety of Abiding in the Presence of God
1 He who dwells in the secret place of the Most High
Shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty.
2 I will say of the LORD, “He is my refuge and my fortress;
My God, in Him I will trust.”
3 Surely He shall deliver you from the snare of the fowler[a]
And from the perilous pestilence.
4 He shall cover you with His feathers,
And under His wings you shall take refuge;
His truth shall be your shield and buckler.
5 You shall not be afraid of the terror by night,
Nor of the arrow that flies by day,
6 Nor of the pestilence that walks in darkness,
Nor of the destruction that lays waste at noonday.
7 A thousand may fall at your side,
And ten thousand at your right hand;
But it shall not come near you.
8 Only with your eyes shall you look,
And see the reward of the wicked.
9 Because you have made the LORD, who is my refuge,
Even the Most High, your dwelling place,
10 No evil shall befall you,
Nor shall any plague come near your dwelling;
11 For He shall give His angels charge over you,
To keep you in all your ways.
12 In their hands they shall bear you up,
Lest you dash your foot against a stone.
13 You shall tread upon the lion and the cobra,
The young lion and the serpent you shall trample underfoot.
14 “Because he has set his love upon Me, therefore I will deliver him;
I will set him on high, because he has known My name.
15 He shall call upon Me, and I will answer him;
I will be with him in trouble;
I will deliver him and honor him.
16 With long life I will satisfy him,
And show him My salvation.”
We have been duped all along by a bunch of so called duplicitious leaders!!!!!
Dear dear all
one more appeal, can Lakeclub become a privately function? if agreed, please stop altogether..
with loves--we will have a private function then( read my mind ).tt person is sincere..please
Dear concerned members,
It is time to stop commenting on Lake club and SP's personal life, as it has offended some readers.
Let us steer back to our objective. Let us put our heads together to seek ways to MOVE FORWARD and not be side-tracked. Every time we MOVE AWAY, we loose focus on our objective.
Let's pick up from where "not going for dinner" left off at 1.20pm.
God bless.
Dear Truth seekers
I have a few queries/comments to ask/make : -
1. What is the next move that we need to take to stop this abuse of power once and for all,ie. will SP resign? will we get a Truth Commission like we so asked for? I like and appreciate this blog but surely all this has got to end sooner or later? no use that we concerned calvarites keep on blogging and venting our frustrations and SP and his merry men keep on witchhunting and abusing their authority right?
2. CCC - With the current economy situation and the liquidity tightening plus increase in raw mat prices, how much do you think CCC's cost will shoot up to? Can CC even get anymore donations and financing to fund the completion of this building? If not, what will happen to CCC? seized by Alliance Bank?
3. Anniversary Dinner - as much as we love our church, I think that those of us who do not agree with what SP is doing etc. should rightfully not go to this dinner. I don't understand how SP and the BOD can still go on celebrating when all is not well with the church.
To all truth seekers,
Please post your comment to obvious in the new posting.
Thanks & God bless.
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