Tuesday, October 14, 2008

9th Update to CC Members

SP’S ELABORATION OF 40TH ANNIVERSARY DINNER

The previous Sunday at DH, Senior Pastor attempted to elaborate on the forthcoming 40th Anniversary Thanksgiving Dinner at Sunway Lagoon hotel. He started by poking fun at the AG Singapore for celebrating their 80th anniversary this year when they have been in existence for less than 80 years. He explained that when AG was first established in Malaya, Singapore was then part of Malaya. Singapore then separated from the Federation of Malaya and formed their own AG. Therefore if AG Malaysia is 74 years old, then AG Singapore cannot be 80 years old. Yet they chose to "add a few years" and celebrate the 80th anniversary.

SP certainly made a boo-boo with this anecdote because it is a case of the pot calling the kettle black. As you all know, he has mandated that our church celebrate the 40th anniversary instead of our actual 47th anniversary if we compute from the year Calvary Church was “born” which was in 1961.

He encourage the congregation to join the dinner to show gratitude and appreciation for God’s faithfulness to our church for the last 40 years. He is either implying that God had not been faithful in our first 7 years of history or he is saying that God doesn’t deserve any gratitude or appreciation from us for the first 7 years. If you had read Hong Meng’s article in this blog on the history of our church or spoke to the pioneer members like Robert Ng, Jenny Low or Tony Lee, you will know that the early years of our existence were not easy days. The church faced much persecution and hardship but during those 7 years of struggles, our founding fathers led by Dr Guynes and his team witnessed the deliverance, miracles and faithfulness of God.

Therefore, by celebrating the 40th Anniversary of Calvary Church, are we then not ROBBING God of 7 years of His glory? Please consider this before any of you happily join the celebrations. Give God His due Glory and declare to the world that He has been faithful for 47 years!

DECEIT AND HALF-TRUTHS

Deceit #1 – Thanksgiving or Fund-raising Dinner?

SP and his pastors have been promoting the above dinner as a celebration of our 40th Anniversary. If you study the dinner registration form carefully, you will note that all cheque payments for the RM85 per head dinner are to be made payable to the CCC.

The question that comes to mind is – Is this a celebration dinner of the church or a fund-raising dinner for CCC? There is no compelling reason why payments for the dinner should be made out to the CCC unless it is actually a fund-raising dinner for the CCC.

We heard through the grapevine that due to the poor response, our pastors and church staff have been desperately calling all leaders, ex-staff and our outreach churches (including those which are now independent) to join the dinner. One such church told one of our pastors that they don’t feel right joining our anniversary celebration and that church’s pastor was promptly told by our said pastor that it is actually a fund-raising dinner for our CCC!

Some of you may also recall that sometime last year, the CCC fund-raising committee had made mention of this forthcoming dinners on 22nd and 25th as part of their fund-raising program.

What we cannot fathom is why our pastors, deacons and SP have to resort to such deceit?
Or have they come to a point that telling half-truths, lies or being deceitful has become a part of them that they no longer have the conscience or discernment to differentiate right from wrong? Where is their honesty and integrity?

Deceit #2 – Congregation of 3,000 or 10,200?

This is extracted from Calvary Church’s website:-

CALVARY CHURCH was dedicated to the glory of God on 11 February 1968 through the efforts of dedicated missionaries. Rev. Tan Sri (Dr) Prince and Puan Sri (Dr) Petrina Guneratnam was the first Malaysian couple to pastor the Church. From a congregation of about 120 in 1968, the Church has grown, pioneered and established 32 daughter churches. Today, Calvary Church and her outreaches minister to more than 10,200 people.

Note that our church now purports to minister to 10,200 people. There were some debates in our blog on how SP can tell the world that we have 8,000 worshippers. None of our blog mathematicians could arrive at such a number. Now this declaration to the world takes the cake. All of you know that including all our supported outreaches and satellites, at most, we have a regular crowd of 2,500 to 3,000 people only, and the number is rapidly dropping.

At our last AGM, SP tried to explain that it is matter of perception. He argued that the then quoted number of 8,400 people included members of our outreaches which have since become independent. It is an illogical argument, to say the least. When an outreach has become independent and is no longer part of us, we cannot include their numbers to our own. If that ridiculous argument is accepted, then the First Assembly of God church in Jalan Sayur being our mother church will be the largest congregation in Malaysia. Calvary may not even come close to being in the 2nd spot since a few others have overtaken us.

WHERE DO WE GO FROM HERE?

We know this is on the minds of all of you who are deeply concerned with the current crisis in our church. When we started this blog, we had hoped that in our dissemination of information to you, all of you will respond with your views, comments and suggestions on the various issues raised and how to move forward. This, we must salute you, because you have done well. Of course, in any debate, there is bound to be some strong differing views and comments. Some comments by some of you may appear to be ”malicious” and “personal” but this is arguable. Using the words of our pastors, it’s a matter of perception. However, we believe that some of the indeed malicious comments are, although unproven, the work of certain church staff, deacons or pastors using pseudo names. Their intention is purely to discredit the integrity of the TT supporters. But we are not worried. We believe that all our fellow Calvarites are mature Christians who are spirit-filled and have the discernment to make the right judgment.

Coming to the action plans, the following are what we, either collectively, individually or as a small group, have done or considered doing or proposed to do:-

1. Stop Giving. Right after the EGM, we received many SMSes, emails and verbal comments from members that they will stop giving offerings, tithes, faith promises and CCC pledges. It is said that when church members are unhappy, they vote with their feet (go to another church) or vote with their wallets (stop giving). To this, we say, please don’t leave the church but you may stop giving, if you wish. But as to whether you should stop giving offerings or tithes or CCC pledges, we leave it to you and your conviction. Seek God for wisdom. We know of a number of members who have made themselves ‘Missions directors’ and they are using their funds well and personally touching lives. Of course, if God asks you to continue giving to Calvary, please do so.

2. Report to the Police. Several of us have met and spoken to the police. We have found out the reporting procedures, the investigation and prosecution process. We have been informed that we do have a case to take up but we have not put in a formal complaint. We feel this is an option of last resort and all of us are praying and seeking God for direction.

3. Report to the IRD. Similar to item 2, we have gotten the procedures and are now awaiting for one final piece of puzzle before we act.

4. Report to AG Council, NECF and WAGRA. We have been in touch with these bodies and are now awaiting their responses and debating on our next move.

5. Legal action. We have consulted lawyers on the various options available to us and will take the appropriate action in due course.

6. Publicize our cause. This is akin to “washing dirty linen in public” . There are 2 proposals namely holding a press conference or organizing a placard demo at the dinner venues in Sunway and Prince Hotel during the dinner times on 22nd and 25th October. These are not the most ideal options but may be worth considering. Bear in mind that it was the “washing dirty linen in public” which brought down great but fallen men of God like Jimmy Swaggart , Jim Bakker and many others. God needs to cleanse His church before revival can come .

7. Petition. This involves the gathering of signatures of voting members to requisite an EGM to remove SP and or the deacons. This could possibly be the most “cleanest” and least damaging option available to us. We plan to put this into action next month.

Some of you have expressed concern that the above actions may cause a split in our church. We wish to say that our church is already split and many have already left for another church. But God is the great Restorer, He will not fail us. Anyhow, we need to find a quick solution to the problem and therefore, we urge you to pray along with us and for God’s wisdom and direction so that we will make the right decision and bring an end to this saga.

God Bless.

278 comments:

«Oldest   ‹Older   201 – 278 of 278   Newer›   Newest»
Fan of CT(calvarytoday) said...

Hello Calvarytoday and Stay and Persevere

Well said.Fully agreed.

obvious said...

Hi all

My opinion is for the TT Group to wait for the one final piece of puzzle (if they have yet to get it) and then report to the IRD first before they organize another KBU meeting. I totally support the idea of a collection hat going round to collect funds to engage a lawyer and I too will be most willing to contribute to the fund.

But let's give the TT Group a bit more time to finalize their options first.

As we are all aware, once this KBU meeting is held, people with different opinions and agendas will also be attending it (remember our previous meeting where a certain person started behaving rowdily?) and this might not really add value to the TT Group's mission and instead cause more confusion for them.

Once they have finished their jigsaw puzzle and is firm on what to do, perhaps then it will be a good time to have a meeting with all concerned members to brief us? Just a suggestion.

SUSPICIOUS said...

Wah! I didn't know that SP had secret, behind-closed-doors, no eyewitnesses meetings with Tan Sri VT, and Nam Fatt boss! I KNOW ABOUT THE SUSPICIOUSLY-SNEAKY, HIGHLY IRREGULAR MEETING WITH KEN YEANG, THOUGH!

Why so long? said...

Dear KC,

Thank you for your email. It saddens me that you would take the step of posting our conversation via email in the blog itself. It was my assumption that your gracious offer to meet was in order for us to take the discussion offline and for you to help answer my questions. Since you have decided to post it here, the email exchange was pointless. Therefore, I will also respond to you via email and on the blog.

Furthermore, I had purposely kept my identity secret simply because I had suspicions that you might decide to post our discussion here and reveal my name and contact details for there rest here. It seems that my suspicions have been justified and my actions have likewise been fair in light of the manner in which you have decided to treat someone who wanted to know the truth.

I would like to reiterate here again: I did not offer to meet first. You (Calvary Today) did. You addressed me as someone who is sincere in knowing the facts.

What then has changed? I personally don't think that requesting to reserve the right to decide of my own free will if I were to choose to sign a document (containing contents I am not aware of) based on facts (which I have not seen) is an unreasonable request. Any logical individual would ask of this too.

It is therefore my conclusion that the TTG only offered me the option to meet in order to silence my queries and in order to reveal my identity to the rest of the blog. Feel free to correct me on this. Your response would be refreshing.

I'd like to respond to a few of the comments in your reply:


"We do not have to prove anything to you."

I know. But you offered to so I accepted your offer in good faith and assumed that you really were sincere in having a mature discourse. Unfortunately I am proven wrong by extending trust to you and am proven right in asking these questions.


"your first question (Why go to the police, IRD or Bank Negara if no concrete evidence is available?) is mischievous, to say the least. You know very well that we have never said that we don't have concrete evidence.

I never said that you never said that you have concrete evidence. Read through my posts. I said that I have yet to see and real facts posted on the blog. There is a very big difference between the two statements. It is not mischievous as it is a legitimate question. How can you ask the readership to help you decide on your action plan if they have not seen the facts themselves? Are expecting them to make a decision because you say you have the facts? Are you suggesting that they show 'blind loyalty' to you?

Now I see two scenarios:
1. You actually have the facts.
Its very possible that you do. And if indeed your facts are legitimate then I will immediately contact you and throw my support to your cause. Your secrecy however raises some concern. Are you hiding the information because its your trump card? That is fine as it is strategically advantageous to you do so. However, please take note on how it looks to some of us looking in. You have accused the BOD of being secretive and of hiding info. You have said there is an information bottleneck. By being so secretive, strategy aside, are you not doing the same thing?

2. You don't have the facts.
Maybe you have bits and pieces that if collected with a little bit more information, would be damaging but for all purposes the bottom line is that you don't have the information needed to make a case. In a way this would justify this wait and see philosophy that you have adopted. 'The time for certain action' actually means 'The time we have enough information'. If indeed you do not have the facts then what is certain is that you have led this blog on to believe that you do for the purpose of rallying support to carry on your cause.

Thank you very much for this exchange. It has been very enlightening for me and I look forward to future discussions on this blog.

Best Regards,

WSL

Why so long? said...

Anonymous,

"You sound like a lawyer but don't think like a lawyer. "

As I said earlier, I am not a lawyer.

CALVARY TODAY said...

Dear WSL

Surprised that you took so long to reply to us. We purposely assigned KC Lim to respond to you in the email in his own name. We had hope that with our revealing a name, you will do likewise and tell us your name. Sadly, you've disappointed us. Anyway, KC Lim will be at the canteen tomorrow after the 1st service in DH. Do drop by and say hello to him. He's the one who met with the ex-BNM governor.

God Bless.

CALVARY TODAY said...

By the way, WSL, in case you do not know KC Lim or how he looks like, please see today's Star papers in the business section on page B3. His photo is there.

Why so long? said...

Dear Calvary Today,

I think I have expressed my disappointment in the prior message and so I am amazed that you allege that I have somehow failed to meet up to our understanding.

Anyway, I'll ponder on what you have said and will see if meeting KC tomorrow is appropriate.

Thank you for your time and effort in trying to make this meeting take place. I apologize that we were not able to come to an understanding.

The Great Wall and 3 Friends said...

Hello Calvarytoday
Praise God for doing the right thing by having assigned KC to response to 'why so long'. Truly, after reading 'why so long''s email and reply to Calvarytoday and KC, I am deeply concerned that why is 'why so long' trying so hard to 'brokered' for informations from CT,or the person CT assigned to response. 'why so long' is not being sincere and honest by using his pseudo name when he wrote to Calvarytoday's email.

I dont think it is 'why so long''s right to demand from CT or TTG to show him any documentations because CT had not committed anything wrongs or siphoned any money to any accounts or preached any abusive messages or commited any spiritual misconducts or altered any history of calvary church or allow nepotism to take place and etc and etc ,the list goes on; therefore , under no circumstances should Calvarytoday be subjected to 'Why so long''s request or demands from the blog or his written emails. The Issues that 'why so long' brought up in these blog and comments are his personal opinion only.( he repeated many times)

Once again, we would like to encourage CT or KC to stop entertaining his request either thru blog or thru email unless his correct name and contact is published here in the blog. We , as strong supporters of Calvarytoday and TTG have every duty to protect Calvarytoday and KC's well being, be it legal issues, or any other issues that had been brought up thus far.

Finally, 'why so long', we dont like the way you behaved... stop all your blogs and emails..we would not feel sorry to request you to stop--reason being you are not sincere at all, why so afraid to let people know who you are even in your private email to KC, again i copied someone saying,shame on you 'why so long'!

we,The Great Wall and 3 friends( supported of CT and TTG0 --signed

POET II said...

"Why So Long,"

We hear the ssss.. hissing of the snake,
Snake in the grass, that's who you are!
We've seen through you, you're a FAKE!
SP's follower, just like him, a liar!

ah ji ah cho said...

Firstly, Datuk KC, it's a very nice pic of u in the Star newspaper today...am so proud to be able to see a fellow Christian appear in the papers for a good reason!

Secondly, it looks to me that only the TT group are willing to reveal their identity whilst those pro-SP/anti-TT/self-proclaimed neutrals/neither here nor there people who post their comments here do not seem to be willing to reveal their true identity. Why so scared?

Update? said...

So did Why So Long drop by at CRC to say hello to Bro.KC this morning? I hope he did since he has so many questions and opinions...

Because the sky is so high said...

Why So Long said,
Thank you for your time and effort in trying to make this meeting take place. I apologize that we were not able to come to an understanding.
Does the sentence means he is not meeting Datuk KC LIM???
ARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGH
CHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!
Excuse me. WHY SO LONG arg!!!!!!!

truly said...

We have to go the the courts as we do not have the Christian "Syariah" court- in AOG , the AG council will only react when the BOD of CC invite them to do so. Otherwise, they will just fold their arms and enjoy reading the blogs!

Secondly we are very denial, as that is why, the very matured Christian will keep doing activities like SP as they are aware that , the Christian will not react and keep praying for the God interventions. If there is no courts interventions, how are those pastors in Singapore, US being prosecuted?

In Matt18:15 If your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over (I believe that individuals like HM, Liza,KC had meet SP and BOD-but no success in geting them to listen)

Matt8:16 But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witness( I believed,groups of brothers and sister had meet the BOD and still they do not listen)

Matt18:17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church ( I believe that the TTG had sought the petitions for the EGM which the BOD refused to accept the 5 resolutions to be table abusing their power by using Section 14of the CC constitution)

If he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or tax collector. ( we will leave to individuals or collective group of individuals to decide on the courses of actions: police reports, court cases, IRB, Bank Negara,etc.)However, please do not waste any more time! We must go fishing!

CALVARY TODAY said...

Why so long? didn't show up to meet KC Lim who was in the DH canteen after the 1st service, from 9.30 to 10am. KC had to leave at 10am as he was on duty to do some church work. We do not know if WSL turn up later.

Let's not debate further on this and move forward to our latest call for a week of prayer. Have you put in your prayer yet?

Why so long? said...

Hi glo,

I'm sorry if I sound a little paranoid but given the attention my posts have received so far, I feared that by giving my name out too soon I would play into a move designed to smoke me out and then silence me. The same goes for meeting KC yesterday.

I had no intention of hiding my identity after the email exchange but I felt that I needed a feel for what the TTG expected from me during the email exchange. I actually expected a private reply explaining why they wanted me to sign the documents suggested and perhaps we could discuss more from there. Once I felt comfortable, I would have given out the information requested.

My issue was not having to sign the document. It was merely the fact that the document became a sort of pre-condition for meeting which I was not comfortable with. If I felt the information presented was legitimate and required action I would have signed it anyway. But if there wasn't anything substantial I did not want to agree or support the actions suggested. I think this was a fair request. Don't you?

Thanks anyway for your polite and reasonable post that helped articulate both sentiments on this issue.

can someone be above the law? said...

It saddens me to read some comments that the AG council cannot do anything or won’t do anything because sp is the Chairman of our National Christian bodies and Emeritus something in the AG Council.

The Star paper, last Thurs, 16 Oct reported ‘Ex-King must pay RM3.5mil. Court allows bank’s suit against …….” If the ex-King, who is now a regent in his own state is subjected to some laws in the country, shows that no one is above THE LAW – not even the ROYAL FAMILY.

How come, our sp, an ordinary citizen is ABOVE THE LAW? You mean, all these Christian Councils in Malaysia and all over the world, cannot do anything when a Christian leader commits an offence. This seems very dangerous. Any one can then hide behind religion to commit offence and in this case, our Christian bodies seem to be their “shield” because they are registered with them and when they hold high positions, they are even more protected than the King of the country.

So what are the National Christian Councils for? It looks like to pave the way for Christian leaders to obtain National Titles – Datuk, Tan Sri…only. Otherwise, it seems to ordinary Christian like me, a FEEL GOOD CLUB for our Christian leaders. How can any one say, “they” can’t do anything? This is absurd!!!

Who is going to protect the ordinary church members? If the Christian Councils protect the pastors, then who protect the church members?

Maybe TTG should consider starting a CHURCH MEMBERS’ COUNCIL to protect us ordinary church members from this kind of deceit. Then we will have a body to go to for HELP. I am sure you will have no problem with membership.

cannot sue said...

How come Mr KK Wong, say cannot sue him, cannot report authorities or we can something, something (can't rememberlah) by the authorities?

stop the rot said...

Dear Diana
You said;
I was taught at BCM that as Christians, we should learn to stand up for justice and truth.

My questions are:
1.What are the AG superintendent doing after attending our EGM?
2.Are the AG committee looking into the matters seriously?
3.Can BCM lecturers also advice them on the matters since they are teaching the word of God?
4.AG needs to stand up for the truth as the churches in the whole of Malaysia are looking at you.Do you dare stand up for the truth just like the TTG in Calvary?
Let's not be a stumbling block.
Let's Walk the Talk for Christ sake.
I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ.
Let's stop the rot before the rot gets into the churches.

Stop the rot said...

Dear Diana,
You mentioned;
I was taught at BCM that as Christians, we should learn to stand up for justice and truth.

My questions are:
1. What is the AG superintendant doing since the EGM? (He was at the meeting too)
2. Are the AG leaders standing for justice and truth?
3. Are we going to let the rot continue or may even spread to other churches?
4. Can we come before God with that clear conscience after hearing the dishonesty of the WAGRA funds?

AG committees need to rise and stand up for the truth,transparency, accountability and good governance.
The TTG group have done that.
HOW ABOUT YOU???????

glo said...

dear uncle/aunty 'why so long?'

i have nothing else to say except to humbly suggest that you continue to pray. seek. listen. and you will know the Truth :)

Sorry said...

Sorry all, it look like you have one BIG ROCK to deal with. Did you notice that Springfield, Missouri, USA has dissappeared from the dot. You see SP can even have "magic" to make Springfield, US AG HQ dissappear. Pooi fook, pooi fook.(chinese for respect)

why so long? said...

glo,

I have never stopped. ;-)

Macy said...

Hello fellow readers, can anyone share how much money have Calvary church fund rasing dinner raised? I was told, most people are not responding! And even the take up rates are mainly rm10000 type! They have to pay for one of the singers.. i thought this is a charity dinner, why need to pay for the singers( one or two of them).

Tommorrow's dinner, most table cannot be filled up, at such, they called many different ones to attend free.. hey, free dinner? beware what is the price? Many cell group leaders took up one table because they have no choice..and they have to look for people to fill up the space.

Joline said...

Yes, I agreed with Macy, i heard from one of the organising committe too, I was approach to attend the dinner but I decline. On another note, I was told now that the TTG had got some very postive progress with regards to some authorities matter. hopefully , I pray for God's mighty revival of repentance to move at the dinner functions tommorrow. These are some of the breaking news to you guys!

Annie Versary said...

heard that they managed to get abt 120 tables filled up..guess they were 'successful' in their giving free seats out and forcing lifegroups to buy tables.

Joline said...

Hi Anni Versary

First must let you know, you got such a nice names! yes, only 120 tables, I was told by my good friends, the original target is 250 tables.You know one more thing, those involved, eg. those involved in the choir, got to pay RM50. another breaking news.. please tune in again..commercial break now...

Annie Versary said...

Hi Joline, thanks..you can call me Annie for short ;)
yea, I guess for a church with10,300 members...120 tables is rather little, not even 20% of the members. I guess the remaining 9,100 members probably do not agree on celebrating 40 instead of 47 years,eh!
yup,heard those who are asked to serve in music etc are given discount on their tickets..last time,whenever they have such dinners/events, those who serve have to either pay full price ticker or else,they gotta go out of the hall and eat fried mee outside by themselves.

Anonymous said...

To restore those seven (7) golden years and to celebrate those founding Calvarites I strongly advocate that those 70 Calvarites wear white (shirts, blouse or dresses) to the dinner.
All Calvarites intending to respect and gave God the FULL GLORY (and not to PG) are strongly encouraged to light a candle or matchstick in silent dedication to these long suffering Calvarites (and those pre-Pastor Guna CC tenure) during the function.
Also to light a clear and direct path for TTG to press forward for their work is righteous and truly Glorifying our Lord Jesus. As an intercessor I'm continuing to exhort this dedicated group seeking TTG and Accountabilty. I pray to the Great Intercessor Our Lord Jesus and the Guidance and Direction of the Holy Spirit in our quest for Truth and for the FULL Glory of Our Almighty GOD.

CNN said...

This just in...they acknowledged those who have contributed in the pioneering of Calvary Church and when they asked those who were from Jln Sayor to stand up and get acknowledged by the rest, only 3-4 people stood up. Don't they realise that the rest of the 67 pioneering members were too hurt to go?!

One who attended the dinner said...

Dear CNN,

Do make sure your facts are correct before you report them. There are defintely more than 3-4 people from Jln Sayor that stood up. We must be very careful that what we report is not heresay but facts or else it would be difficult to fight for truth.

I feel that the messages that CT had sent re the anniversary dinner had been noticed and they did in fact had tried to make amends as much as they could. Given the short space of time the messages sank in - the Church did try to comprise. It really does not matter whether the figure '40' includes the '7' or not - what matter is that people are now aware of a bit of the history and know where CC comes from. At least it is now known that SP was not the one who start CC from scratch. However, we must give credit that SP has build CC to where we are today.

So this topic should be dropped and we move on to more important things, eg. reconciliation, truth and transparancy.

Instead of just blogging our views, etc. is CT taking any concrete steps to meet with BOD and find out whether any actions are being done and to make them known to the congregation. We need to give them an indication that no action means action on the CT side. This is being fair - instead of dropping a bombshell on you know who.

LET'S GO FOR RECONCILIATION. TRUTH AND TRANSPARENCY.

Truth Prevails said...

It should be in this order:

1. TRUTH
2. TRANSPARENCY
3. INTEGRITY
4. GOOD GOVERNANCE OF CHURCH
5. GOOD CHRISTIAN STEWARDSHIP
6. RECONCILIATION
7. RESTORATION & HEALING

Yes, no doubt SP has been instrumental in building up Calvary Church (AND the A/G Movement in Malaysia) but he must not resort to these underhand tactics to discreetly claim the credit for himself. Everyone who attended the dinner must have been impressed with what he had single-handedly done for Calvary for the past 40 years! That was the underlying message, I felt.

Truth Prevails said...

"I am the Lord: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images."
Isaiah 42:8

graven images = idols = the work of men's hands

Colossians 3:4 tells us that covetuousness is idolatory

Anonymous said...

to the one who attended dinner

what makes you think that CT did not attempt to meet BOD? The TT group have made countless attempts to resolve the issues brought up with the parties concerned. This blog was set up because the pastors and leaders of the church are not listening. Please read all the up dates here before you accuse TT group.

ZZYY said...

To : anonymous

Very well said, what made the one attended the dinner think that the TTG did not attempt to meet BOD and
approach the Senior management.. please 'the one who attended', if you still think that that SP is the who deserved all the glory and honor, so be it.. to think that they try to make good/right the wrong in such a short period given- it is a nonsense, let me repeat this, the 40 or 47 years was brought up for few months even way before they make the announcement in the church, please do not be so ignorant and trying so hard to blindly give all your dues to SP, as to your rebuked on 'CNN', 'anonymous' you are not the only one who attended the dinner, i got feed back too, please shut-up if you yourself not having the facts correct.

AVG said...

TO : the one who attende dinner

The issues had been dragged for so long, iI am losing my patience, and after reading your comments, I am now all the more conviced that church leadership, especially SP and BOD are not sincere in resolving the issues. Lets all go for the authories as per proposal and survey carried out earlier!

ccily 3 said...

Perhaps we should try 'publicising our cause' as well....

the more SP hardens his heart, the harder the lesson he will have to learn!

we might even have to 'hand him & SAP over to satan,' as last resort.... hopefully this will bring them back to the Lord

answers please said...

To the one who attended the dinner,

If there were more than 3 or 4 as reported by CNN (thanks for the info) then pray you tell us how many "faithful oldies" stood up?

We believe CNN becoz he dare give us an estimation - 3 or 4. But you my dear friend, only say CNN is wrong, but not reporting the right fugure. Don't be like SP & BOD here, always talk in riddles, making accusations, but not giving us answer - any answer - whatever answer. Please GIVE US ANSWERS!!! No more accusations please.

answers please said...

Sorry one who attended the dinner. Was held up by a phone call and only saw your answer after I posted.

Anyway, How come you ask TTG to make contact with BOD when you have read so many times they try but no result. The BOD must dislike the TTG, that's why there is no meeting between them. Maybe you and I, us all, should try to do that - meet the BOD and ask them what happened to the MOVING FORWARD PLAN, that they so proudly gave out at the EGM.

At the end of the day, you and I the same, we do not want to over expose ourself to SP & BOD. We do not want to be AXED like the other church leaders from our comfortable position. We want to look good. So we talk alot of ...TTG should this...TTG should that...

JJ Bo said...

Dear "the one who attended dinner"

Hello, what do you mean by being petty? 47 is 47. No compromised, God heard us, you want to compromise truth with God? please dont do that! you are blogging here and telling everyone here to twist the truth? please dont do that! young students and young adults, young christian ae reading this blog and you are telling readers here dont harp on that nothing can be done, nonsense again. To those who believe in being truthful, do you agree with me? Bible never said, when you have done long, dont harp, nothing can be done, but bibled said, confess and repent!

ha ha ha said...

Ha ha ha, you sure the other 5 standing are not ushers? You say the hall very big mah.

He He He said...

If not ushers then maybe waiters or worse still maybe APs.

At the last AGM, SP reminded the counters to count the pastors, who were already standing to perform their duty, without giving the APs a chance to vote for themselves.

level headed, not brainwashed said...

I have been a long time member of Calvary Church, and until the real age of Calvary was revealed by bro. Hong Meng and Calvary Today i had not even thought that Calvary existed apart from Rev. Dr. Prince Guneratnam (never mind about the other titles!). And neither did I know the history of the 70 from Jalan Sayor until reading this blog. All these years, this truth had been kept from us! In all his previous celebrations SP had not even acknowledged the existence of the 70 Charter members! They were not of any significance to him and neither did he appreciate them in any of his sermons.

Why suddenly the 70 from Jln. Sayor were acknowledged last night, then? Because of the powerful effects of blogging! SP was obviously trying to defend himself and make it seem as though he appreciated the earlier 7 years and the 70 pioneers of the church, to make himself look good and to refute Calvary Today's expose.

However, i also know that those who came back from the dinner last night were very impressed by what SP, the superman and the hero of the hour, had done for Calvary all these 36 years! This is just an example of the brainwashing that SP and SAP have become so skilled in.

CNN said...

To ‘one who attended the dinner’…..I apologize if my facts were wrong but I heard this from not one,but 2 different ppl who were also at the dinner. So unless they were a bit too sleepy from having to listen to all the speeches and didn’t manage to see ALL the ppl who stood up, I would rather choose to believe them (since I know them personally) than you whom I do not know. But perhaps the rest are rite, it could be the waiters/ushers which confused your counting perhaps?

liang said...

To: cnn

yes..yes..yes.. truth..truth..truth..we believe you. God said, when 2 or 3 come together.. this is exactly thre right thing to do.. you have got witness...

LS said...

Dear Diana,
Praise God to have a sister who has been consistenly showing much concern and love for this faith. God certainly recongnises this pure heart and blesses you in all your days.

Much have been said, read and prayed. I would like to point out that you were indeed incorect in respect of paragraph three of your comment posted herein. Let me enlighten you that out of the seven resolutions proposed to be tabled at the last EGM, of which all had been thrown out by the BOD of CC (legally absolutely unconstitutional),.... I attached herewith part of the Resolutions in relations to the calling of God's wiseman (AOGM) for such intervension for your reference and enlightenment...

"RESOLVED, that the members of Calvary Church humbly urged the Secretary of the Board of Deacons to pursue such investigation into the allegations through the General Council of the Assemblies of God / The Executive Committee of Assemblies of God;

RESOLVED, within fourteen (14) days from the date of this Assembly, the Secretary of the Board of Deacons informing through writing to the General Council of the Assemblies of God of such decisions to empower the General Council of the Assemblies of God/ The Executive Committee of Assemblies of God the Right of Intervention."

The same had been distributed to majority of the members of CC to support such call and on the day of EGM a further written submissions had called for members to support such call. Members at the EGM were not given the opportunity to call for such intervension. God Himself was with us and He saw this, Diana, (together with two brothers from God's wiseman [AOGM])and God knew we were seeking His wise man (AOGM)among us...in obedience to Paul's teaching 1 Cor 6:5 . Sad to say, Diana, the BOD, also being wiseman of God supposely had rejected Paul's teaching...calling in Legal Practitional of the world... briefing legal opinions...legal issues...,educating God's People with criminal law in God's sanctuary, intimidating God's people...rejecting GOD's wiseman to intervene.

As a result of that, if the Concern Calvarites were to proceed the matter in Court, do you not regard this as the BOD that has driven them to this alternative.

Furthermore, it is also rather not fair to God, using His name in vain, by relying on 1Cor6 in all circumstances in life, are we to say Christians...can all go scot-free (in this temporal world) if we commit crimes against Christians cos our Christians brothers will then drop all charges in Courts and wait for God's wiseman.... then we better petition for a Christian Court as like those we have for our Muslim brothers in this land.

Futher, I also read Matthew 18:15-17, this is the Lord's teaching. How do we reconcile the teaching of Paul and our Lord's.I am not a BCM student, Diana, but I seek the Lord's daily for discernment and the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Thus,I strongly believed God has his own perfect timing (this also answers "Why so Long" and if He wants to know the answer)and plans. If the time comes where the Lord has revealed enough evidence and touched more hearts; those who have committed wrongs and yet not want to repent before the Lord, Yes, let God dealt with them regardless whether be it through the Wiseman of God or through the Court of this land. Justice need to be done, let it be done. Be it unto the Lord.

Ls

Annie Versary said...

Dear One who attended the dinner,
Although i agree that we shud now move on to more important things like reconciliation, truth and transparency, i'm afraid i cannot agree with yr statement 'However, we must give credit that SP has build CC to where we are today.'
I guess you're trying to take a fair and neutral view of the whole situation, but i personally do not think we must give credit to SP. After all,it's not how you start tat matters, it's how you end...and SP sure does not seem to be ending well...he is the one who caused CC to be in this big mess,so the only thing we need to give credit to him for is: the mess CC is in.

GOD BUILD CC, not SP & SAP said...

100% agree wit annie (you not related to that orphan girl by chance eh?)"we must give credit that SP has build CC to where we are today". CORRECTION!!! IT IS GOD, OUR GREAT AND MIGHTY GOD, WONDERFUL SAVIOUR, KING OF KINGS..... who has build CC to where we are today.

SP & his family can only take credit of his ability to turn us all into fools and zombies, to do his bidding for so long. Our LORD JESUS IN HIS MERCY HAS SET US FREE. AMEN.

I have spend many hours trying to list down the "spectacular" thing that he has done for GOD'S KINGDOM. The only thing I can come up with is his MOUTH. He sure got the GIFT OF THE GAP. I remember he wrote one miserable book that did not sell well. Is he good at family life teaching? NO. Is he good at evangelism? We only see him in action at large stadium, never actually seen him on the street sharing Christ one to one.

SAP, worst still. Can't sing like most pastor's wife do to compliment the husband. Teach family life? Look at how her children treat their in-laws. Children's church? Never seen her with the kids except to give out awards or receive flowers/fruit basket. (Only seem carrying her own grandkids) Counselling? She will direct all to see her daughter to promote CLM. Written books? I have not even read a devotional tot by her. Her most famous sermon - The Prayer of Jabez, I found out was copy cat from a book.

No my fren, it is GOD, OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST who build CC through the ENTIRE BODY OF BELIEVERS - THE PEOPLE WHO call CALVARY CHURCH, their church.

love give for hard labour said...

busy body abit ok? can those who attended the dinner tell us poor folks who could not afford to go and not famous enough to get a free invitation. Did they colloect a special 40 years gift (money)for sp/sap for their hard labour in cc?
Then they happily will donate the money back to ccc and all the ppl clap in awe for what a generous pastor we have. He happy, got all the clapping and ppl happy becoz witness a good performance.

Did BOD send Bro H, Bro E or Bro P, to give a long speech on how they deserve so much more but we poor cc can only afford to give him a small token of RMXX,000-00 ONLY?

Annie Versary said...

Hi God Build (will call u tat coz yr nick name is too long la..haha), i'm not related to Annie but am in the same dilemma as her as I feel like an orphan right now without a Shepherd :(

I agree with u but to be fair, to be a sn pastor's wife,eventhough u can't sing well,it's ok...most importantly is if u've got a loving and nurturing heart. whether sap has tat or not, i rather not comment; but all I am asking of her is that if she truly loves God, she should do the right thing now and correct her husband before it is too late. Otherwise, she's also to be blamed for all that has happened.

Karen said...

We must give credit where credit is due. SP & SAP were good pastors in their early years of ministry. CC did reach out to many people especially the young ones. I remember accepting Christ in then The Merlin Hotel and later brought to Calvary Church DH for Sunday morning services. I used to be so encouraged by Pastor's messages each week because of persecution from my parents for being a christian. SP used to stand by the front door & shook all our hands before we left. He will tell everyone to stay put till he reach the door first. Pastor, it would be nice to shake your hand once in while again on Sundays.

The APs like PO, SK, RayY & RicY also did have a great passion for us the young people then. (Not that I am very old now)I would not be so strong in my faith today, if not for their guidance and nurturing back then.

Some where in the recent years, we slowly saw a decline in their expressive love and care for the members. For those of us who have been around long enough, do feel the difference. I speak for myself here but like many, I believe, the church leadership, my pastors, have not handled this whole saga well.

Pastors, I quote someone who told me this - We the EX-leaders of Calvary Church feel like we have been 'used & discarded" now because we are of no more value to the church. I say this sadly and my prayer is that this can be resolved quickly and by God's grace and mercy, things can go back to what it used to be - Church life was so much simpler.

A Far Away Servant of the Lord said...

I agree with Karen. I too came to the Lord in CC in 1977. I grew-up in CA. PO and SK have been a part of my spiritual growth during my teenage years. I appreciate them as my pastors. However, I've never have had a friendly conversation with SP and SAP during my 13 years with CC. In the later years PO and SK (as Karen wrote) show a decline in their expression of love and care. They were harder to approach.

Pastors of CC, I appeal to you to be shepherds that love and care for your sheep. God has called and placed you to guide, protect and feed His sheep. In God's Kingdom leaders are to serve, to be great examples of people that show love and humility towards God and others to follow, show no partiality and love others unconditionally and sacrificially. His Church is not to have the worldly values because we're called to be the light in the dark World. We should be different from the World. Our Lord wants to cleanse His Church, bringing repentance and restoration so that revival shall follow. However, our wrong choices and our pride in this situation can hinder God's Kingdom to come to our church and our community. It's your call, pastors and leaders of CC. Do you willing to be humble and give-up your reputation? (even so you think you are right)for His Name and for unity sake so that God's power can resurrect and His Name shall be glorify in your city and in your nation?

POET said...

It's truly sad & heartbreaking
To see the rot in the church of God,
Pastors who are fakes, pretending,
Their lives do not match The Word;

SP & SAP love money & glory more,
Their God is SELF, their belly;
Jesus is standing at Judgment's door,
"Prepare yourselves for eternity!"

Member for 27 years said...

Member for 27 years

I also agree with Karen. I have been a member of the church for 27 years. I have seen the "use and discard " policy happen so many times to so many members of the church.


What has happen to this church? How can the pastors and leaders of this church not see what is happening to the church? The church is rotting and the members are hurting and crying out for something to be done. I personally have cried out to God to do something quickly. If the leaders of the church will not do anything to address the issues we are facing, the church members will have to act drastically.

AOG Malaysia, what are you going to do about what is happening in CC? Are you going to sit down and not do anything?
What about NECF? Are you also going to sit down and not do anything?

for pete sake said...

SP, when asked by the TTG about the money, replied, "the bod, whom u all voted in gave me the money"
Sound familiar? Man will always try to justify their wrong doings (legally speaking).
The deceitfulness & craftiness of sp & the subservient behaviour & attitude of the bod is so glaringly visible during the egm; there is none so blind as those who would not see.
U think they will get away with their conduct during the egm, i'm saying God is not mocked.

david said...

Stop giving : we will definitely do so. Don't the conscience of the pastors trouble them when they announce the cause of the designated offerings every 1st. Sunday, knowing fully well that they might end up as 'travelling expenses' for sp to 'travel to india'
Sit & rot : No we will NOT sit & rot. We will STOP the rot and God will bring back His glory to the church. The truth would be revealed and the righteousness of God will prevail. U seemed so confident we will rot, but God is merciful to His children & He will NOT let man destroy His church (His people & definitely not a building).

ironical said...

The person who stole, got away scot free during our EGM.
The persons who shouted 'thief, thief' got vilified

What's happening in this church??

Emeritus pastor said...

Emeritus indicate that the person has retired but keeps the title as an honour.

SP is the Chairman of our National Christian bodies and Emeritus something in the AG Council.

Maybe SP should also be given another title,
Emeritus pastor of Calvary Church

desperate and grieved said...

AOG Malaysia, are you going to do anything about Calvary Church? Are you not going to do anything just because Senior Pastor of Calvary Church is Emeritus Chairman of AOG?Is our Senior Pastor "god" that none of you has the guts to rebuke him? This is the same question I also would like to ask all pastors and the Board of Deacons of Calvary Church. Are you fellows also going to pretend that nothing is happening in Calvary Church? Please I beg of you, please do something about it

POET II said...

Thieves in the church,
Getting away scot-free!
Sadly, the scriptures we search,
What is the Lord's decree?
Jesus said,
“You have made my Father’s House a den of thieves!”

Two thieves hung on the cross
Together with Jesus at Calvary,
One despised salvation’s great cost,
The other cried, Lord, remember me!
Jesus said unto him,
“Today thou shalt be with me in Paradise!”

I love you said...

Bros & Sis, the Administrator of CT has called for one week prayer. Cool it, cool it, don't get hot and loose your sanctity in this week of prayer and today is supposed to be fasting day. Forgot already ah?

Let us continue to pray for the rest of the week. Next week we continue blogging. Sorry ah no offence intended. Don't scold me, I love all of you.

New Beginning said...

Wow, do you know that as of today, we have more than 550 hits per day in this blog since we started on 4/9/2008?

Sorry said...

I love you too but I cannot keep till next week, getting old, very fast forget things. The rest of you don't blog ok?

I quote, "Emeritus indicate that the person has retired but keeps the title as an honour."

Our SP really deserve it. He is so clever to make sure that he is in full control of everything in CC. Nothing can move without his approval & knowledge. Then, in my earlier comment I said, he can "magic" Springfield, Missouri, US AG HQ disappear from the blog. Now I read, he is Emeritus (cannot even pronounce) Gen Sup (somthing like that, I heard)in our local AG office. He really 'Pau ka liaw".

No wonder, they can so confidently go "makan besar" last Wednesday and we like fools eating maggi mee and reading blog, becoz rain so heavy cannot go out. Sorry lah, looks like no one can touch him. We must obey CT and pray harder. Sorry one more time, forgot to puasa today.

Anonymous said...

to I love you said

I have been praying and blogging at the same time, can or not? I think canlah? I know must pray but no one say cannot do both ie pray and blog at the same time

SM said...

This blog has been seen by the whole world already and I think the Christian leaders out there are watching our AG Malaysia to see if they will sweep all this under the carpet just as they say, Malaysia semua Boleh! or have the guts to stand up and send SP packing and show the world that our God and Malaysian Christian leaders doesn't condone all his nonsense or such nonsense by any pastor in our churches. The ball is at our AG 's feet and the world is watching....

Sad said...

Dear SM,

Yep the whole world is looking at the blog but are you sure that all our Pastors, the entire BOD and the loyalist to SP are reading the blog.

Maybe the AG Council is not seeing either.

They obviously feel that what they don't read, they would not be accused of knowing and not doing anything. Or could they be "ordered" not to go into the blog and how could they go in as they would have to tell a lie when asked "Did you go into the blog?"

Sad, sad...sad

ORIGINAL SAD said...

Dear Sad,

I am the original SAD, so you should be calling yourself SAD II. This is to avoid misunderstandings.

But I know what you mean...it is very sad that the 'top guns' of A/G Malaysia may not even be reading this blog, and all our crying out has fallen on deaf ears!

What SM said, too, is also so very sad...for all its power & authority, A/G Malaysia is either unwilling or unable to put right the wrong just because Rev. Tan Sri Datuk Dr. Prince Guneratnam is a big shot! If unable to, then what's the point of having General Council in the first place? If unwilling to, then I will question their priorities....is a big organisation like A/G Malaysia so weak and ineffective that they can't even correct one of their own who has pierced himself with many sorrows and has erred in the faith?

stop the rot said...

Dear AOG Malaysia,

We are upholding you in our prayers too.(see prayer posting)

Someone said,
TO ERR IS HUMAN, TO FORGIVE IS DIVINE
Therefore if our dear SP err, only shows that he is human and all of us are.
Please stand up for the Lord Jesus and we are praying for you that you do.
We know that the cross that you have to bear or carry is truly a very heavy one. But our Lord Jesus will carry you with His arms as you laid the heavy cross at His Feet.

Let's lift high His Royal Banner for the churches to see.
Remember the whole AG Malaysia, knows the Calvary crisis/saga.
Your decision will definitely affect all the churches and the generation to come.

We will remember you in our prayers daily

Let's stop the rot

Annie V. said...

So anyone going to the charity dinner tonight?

Anna said...

Hi Annie V.

no not going--what charity dinner lar? still got to be the singers..

i heard 16 tables only..hey, i read the souvenir programme on the 40 dinner..was told SP very worry and depress looking during the dinner...

Anna said...

* got to pay for the singer*

Annie V. said...

Dear Anna,oh yeah...forgot abt the professional singer. wonder how much they hv to pay to bring her here?? can cover cost ar...

GUNAROTNAME said...

AG,NECF,WARGA
(EXTRACTED FROM PURPOSE DRIVEN LIFE)
The Bible says, “If you wait for perfect conditions, you will never get anything done” (Ecclesiastes 11:4 NLT).
· Stop making excuses!
· Realize perfectionism paralyzes performance!
· Face your fears!
· Focus on the gain, not the pain!
· DO IT NOW!
What have you been putting off that you know you need to do? … something at work … at home … at church? DO IT NOW!

patrick said...

Hee..hee.hee..becoz our local AG, NECF etc not doing anything, I already send this blog address and latest update and comments to all SP's buddies like Rev Peter Mortlock, Rev Dag Heward-Mills, Rev Ong Sek Leang, Dr George O. Wood, Rev David Cho, Bishop James D Leggett, Rev Dr Patrick Lau, Rev Dr Robert Lim, Northwest University Board. Also email to SP, BOD and all APs.

hopefully and maybe the foreign friends will do something since no action by our local councils.

Jos-Mike said...

Dear Patrick

Wow, Praise the Lord for your lion courage and conviction for bearing the burden, yes, God is Good, He used so many different ones in their own talents, convictions, burdens, He used us in His due seasons, we will all move forward and press on to see His light shine upon our faces, and let His glory pour out in a minghty way in cc again..

Joe said...

Hi Patrick

one more--Global pastor network, Dr James Davis, who preached in cc before..

fan of patrick said...

wahh..patrick, good thinking...u very brave,salute u!

Logically Speaking said...

Just a thought here....maybe in answer to Sis. Diana who was more concerned about 'saving Calvary Church' than 'ousting SP.'

To save a nation, the dictator must be ousted or removed, by force, if needs be. E.g. Hitler was removed so that Germany could be saved and restored, and WWII was ended (over in Europe).

TO save Iraq, Saddam Hussein was removed - of course, the healing process in Iraq takes a much longer time period.

Similarly, to save Calvary Church, SP and SAP must be removed, by force, if needs be.

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