At the EGM the deacons were asked if there was a retirement age for the Senior Pastor. The answer from a Deacon was that there was no retirement age in the Church Constitution. Absolutely true. We all knew that. We also read the Constitution. But did he answer the question? Was there a retirement age for the Senior Pastor?
There is also no retirement age provision in the Constitution for the associate pastors and the church staff but I am sure there is a Board policy on this. Ask any of the church staff who had retired. Unless otherwise provided for, the national retirement age is 55. Had the Board enacted a policy on the retirement age for the Senior Pastor if it is not 55? This is a very reasonable and simple question.
It is inconceivable that a Board such as ours does not have such a policy. Most of the deacons have extensive corporate and human resource experience in substantial companies and organizations. Could they have overlooked the need for such a policy? Surely in their care for the Senior Pastor they must provide for such a policy. They could not have intended for the Senior Pastor to work till he drops. There must come a point in time when the Board must allow the Senior Pastor to take it a little easier and enjoy the fruits of his labour.
We have heard that indeed there is such a policy, i.e. the retirement age is 60. We cannot prove it because Board decisions are secret and so are the minutes; the sole copy being kept by the Church Secretary. If that is true then why did the Deacon not say so? What harm could possibly come from letting us know?
He was probably constrained by the 7th resolution submitted by the concerned members. If he had admitted that there was a retirement age of 60 years that would mean that Senior Pastor had retired a couple of years ago upon reaching his 60th birthday. Therefore he would have to be reappointed by the Board for him to continue as Senior Pastor.
In that case under Rule XI(1)(a) of the Church Constitution, his reappointment would have to be ratified by a two-thirds majority vote of the voting members present at a General Meeting properly convened for that purpose. The Board did not do that. They did not seek ratification by the members. They could have side-stepped the issue by invoking Rule XIV which makes them the Sole Authority to interpret the Constitution. All the other provisions in the Constitution can be rendered quite meaningless when they invoke Rule XIV. So they could have “interpreted” that the reappointment would not need to be ratified by the members at a General Meeting. We can shout “unfair, unconstitutional and dictatorial”. They just turn a deaf ear and carry on business as usual. They have all the powers.
That being the case the Deacon could jolly well have disclosed the retirement age to us without consequences. Even if we know what can we do? We have no power to insist that Rule XI(1)(a) be complied with. The Board can thump their noses at us and we simply have to take it on the other cheek.
That was what happened to the 7 resolutions submitted for the EGM. The Board had demonstrated more than adequately that they could and would exercise the full extent of their powers as granted them by the Constitution to make sure that they and they alone determine what is to be done in and for the Church.
What is the spirit behind Rule XI(1)(a)? This rule recognizes that whilst the selection of a Senior Pastor for the Church rests with the deacons, the appointment must be supported and accepted by the congregation. The appointment or reappointment must be ratified by at least two-thirds of the voting members. Under normal circumstances the ratification would just be a formality. The members would usually support the decision of the Board. But when there is doubt then Rule XI(1)(a) becomes important.
For a Senior Pastor to perform his pastoral duties effectively he must enjoy broad support from the congregation; at least two-thirds of the membership would be considered representative of broad support. Otherwise who is the Senior Pastor to pastor? I believe that that is the spirit and intention behind Rule XI(1)(a).
By not complying with Rule XI(1)(a) it would appear that the Board was not concerned if the reappointment was supported by the congregation. Should the Board be concerned? Whilst Rule XI(1)(a) seems to say it is absolutely essential, the Board appears not to think so.
Therefore was the answer from the Deacon the truth, a half-truth or a lie? You decide.
WHM
15th September 2008
skip to main |
skip to sidebar
Seeking Truth, Transparency & Godly Governance in Calvary Church, Kuala Lumpur
This is a mirror website of Calvary Today
Labels
- AGM 2009 (7)
- AGM 2010 (2)
- AGM 2011 (2)
- AGM 2012 (2)
- Calvary Convention Centre (21)
- Calvary International Ministries(CIM) (11)
- Calvaryland (1)
- Christmas (3)
- Church Conflict (5)
- Church Constitution (6)
- Church in Public Media (5)
- Church Issues (19)
- Church Legal Issue (19)
- EGM 2008.08.15 (9)
- EGM 2009.04.04 (5)
- EGM 2012 (1)
- Extended Ministries (2)
- Financial Governance Task Force (1)
- Financial Stewardship (14)
- History of Calvary Church (5)
- Pentecostal World Conference 2013 (1)
- Prayer and Testimonies (11)
- Summary of the CC Saga (3)
- The "Allah" issue (2)
- The Passion Week (1)
- The Senior Pastor (12)
- The Start of TTG Journey (4)
Blog Archive
-
▼
2008
(41)
-
▼
October
(8)
- Pioneers of Calvary Church KL, We Salute You.
- Please Say A Little Prayer For CC
- 40 or 47 years old? It is official! by HM
- 9th Update to CC Members
- Questions to Truth Seekers
- Post EGM - Independent Auditor and Lawyer - Really...
- Post EGM - Truth, Half-truth or Lie by HM
- Follow up on EGM, Letter to BOD by AC
-
▼
October
(8)
Call to Calvarites
It's time to unite in our common quest for truth, transparency, good governance, stewardship and accountability in our broken and hurting Church. Until the above goals are achieved, this is what you can do:-
1. Stop Giving to Calvary. If you wish, you may re-direct your giving to worthy Christian organisations, Bible schools, orphanages, smaller churches which are struggling financially or non-church sponsored missionaries or missions work. However, if God specifically tells you to give to Calvary or you are uncomfortable about not giving to Calvary, please continue to do so.
2. Pray. Pray for God's forgivessness and cleansing of our Church as a body for all the injustice, unethical practices and bad stewardship that we have condoned or been blind to over the years. Pray against the principalities and evil forces that have crowded the minds and vision of our leaders. Pray for unrighteousness, covetousness and pride to be removed from our midst. Pray for God's truth and sovereign will to fall afresh on our Church. Pray for His healing for our broken hurting Church.
1. Stop Giving to Calvary. If you wish, you may re-direct your giving to worthy Christian organisations, Bible schools, orphanages, smaller churches which are struggling financially or non-church sponsored missionaries or missions work. However, if God specifically tells you to give to Calvary or you are uncomfortable about not giving to Calvary, please continue to do so.
2. Pray. Pray for God's forgivessness and cleansing of our Church as a body for all the injustice, unethical practices and bad stewardship that we have condoned or been blind to over the years. Pray against the principalities and evil forces that have crowded the minds and vision of our leaders. Pray for unrighteousness, covetousness and pride to be removed from our midst. Pray for God's truth and sovereign will to fall afresh on our Church. Pray for His healing for our broken hurting Church.
Purpose of the Blog
The primary purpose is to keep members and regular worshippers of Calvary Church, KL updated on issues and concerns in our church today and to provide a platform for them to express their views, comments and concerns and provide feedback on matters raised, so that God's will and purposes for our lives and for our church may be fulfilled to His glory.
Contact us
calvarytoday@gmail.com
Visitors
FEEDJIT Live Traffic Map
Search This Blog
Popular Posts
-
On 5 July 2010, the Kuala Lumpur High Court had allowed Assemblies of God’s (AOG) application to strike out the Originating Summons which ci...
-
B L E S S E D C H R I S T M A S ! Calvary Today wishes all Calvarites and friends a Blessed Christmas! Christmas reminds us of God’s great...
-
We reproduce below a Comment / Testimony posted by a pioneer member of Calvary Church, since the days of Calvary Church's humble beginni...
-
Last week, the group of concerned members, better known as the TTG group, submitted two proposed resolutions to the Secretary of the BOD, to...
-
While the whole church waits in prayerful anticipation of a conclusion to the 15-month saga which has caused much hurt, confusion, strife an...
-
The TTG had a meeting recently and realised that the Chart on " CIM TRAVELLING EXPENSES" posted on 1st November 2008 may have led ...
-
That was the strong 2-word warning from Rev Dikran Salbashian in his sermon yesterday at Calvary Church’s Sunday morning services. Preaching...
Healing For Our Land Revival Meetings
Watch a Review clip on A Review of the Healing For Our Land Revival Meetings
or directly from You Tube Healing For Our Land (M4J)
Daily Bible Verse
Articles of Interest
Berita Calvary
Read interesting articles and testimonies in : BERITA CALVARY
The Bario Revival 1973 Revisited. A must read for all Malaysian Christians.
The Bakalalan Revival 1984 Revisited. Another must read for all Malaysian Christian.
Read about the church which borrowed money to build and now has to file for bankruptcy. US Church Files for Bankruptcy
TTG in the newspapers again. "Christian & Politics".
Recommended Blogs
Christians and Law Suits
Our Pastors often quote 1 Corinthians 6 as a basis thatChristians should not pursue legal action against one another. We must understand the context of Apostle Paul's admonishment and not simply quote the passage out of context. What does other Christian leaders say?
1. CHRISTIAN LAWSUIT by Dr. Paul Nah
2. CHRISTIAN INVOLVEMENT IN LAW SUITS by Dr. George Wood, the General Superintendent of AG, USA
3. WHEN IT'S RIGHT TO GO TO COURT by Doug Goins.
1. CHRISTIAN LAWSUIT by Dr. Paul Nah
2. CHRISTIAN INVOLVEMENT IN LAW SUITS by Dr. George Wood, the General Superintendent of AG, USA
3. WHEN IT'S RIGHT TO GO TO COURT by Doug Goins.
Letters to TTG/CT
Read the following letters and e-mails sent in by people who have identified themselves to us. The contents of their letters are relevant to our current issues, although we may not be in total agreement with the views presented by them. However, not all e-mails to us will be published.
1. A letter from an AOG Pastor
1. A letter from an AOG Pastor
Feelin' Generous?
Make a REAL difference in someone's life in 2011. Here's some worthy causes which you may want to bless and contribute to. Click on the links below:
1. Malaysian Christian Association For Relief (M'sian CARE)
2. FunGates SuperFlow Foundation
3. World Vision Malaysia
4. Asian Outreach (M) Bhd.
Malaysian Office: +603 7876 6789
The above charities are not associated with CT or the TTG group in any way but are examples of good Christian works which deserve our support and prayers.
1. Malaysian Christian Association For Relief (M'sian CARE)
2. FunGates SuperFlow Foundation
3. World Vision Malaysia
4. Asian Outreach (M) Bhd.
Malaysian Office: +603 7876 6789
The above charities are not associated with CT or the TTG group in any way but are examples of good Christian works which deserve our support and prayers.
Christian Publications
To get FREE copies of "OUR DAILY BREAD" write to : malaysia@rbc.org or visit : rbc ministries
To purchase books by rbc ministries ONLINE : Discovery House Distribution
ASIAN BEACON, a contemporary Christian magazine, has been impacting lives in Malaysia for the past 40 years. It is an important tool for education, exhortation and evangelism as it is one of the few Christian magazines in Malaysia and Singapore with a publishing permit.
Visit Wah Lok's website for a list of Malaysian Authors : Tabernacle Music
Recommended Reading
52 comments:
To: Bro. Hong meng and the rest of the TT group,
There has also been some half truths and lies going around about some of you (malicious allegations by SP supporters?)...the one I heard most recently was that Bro Hong Meng had a long talk with SP and is now no longer questioning on the CIM issues, ie. that he is now ok with the RM200k p.a. being transferred secretly out from the church, that he also purposely missed the EGM so that he would not hv to ask questions and that he and Sis Liza are not close anymore due to this. Bro Hong Meng, although I do not believe this rumour, I hope you can perhaps once and for all dispel this rumour via replying in this blog abt this,thanks.
Other rumours abt the rest of the TT group also seem to be attacking them personally, ie abt their work etc
I am quite shocked that SP supporters would go to the extent of telling half truths and lies to destroy the credibility of the TT group, especially since some of these personal attacks have nothing whatsoever to do with the issues at hand about CIM, the misuse of funds, the lack of accountability and transparency in the church etc
Few mths ago, there was a rumour that some deacons went to a TT member's house to pray and this TT member later asked for forgiveness for all that he had done in regards to questioning the leadership etc.However, when this TT member was asked abt it, it turned out that this was not true at all.
I really wonder who are the people spreading all these 'malicious allegations' about the TT members? Could it be the BOD??? I hope not, but I really wonder if it is indeed them.
To Non TT Member,
Its amazing how 'they' come up with such great stories. I have heard of others too. Its such a waste that they dont work for Hollywood by writing scripts for them. Would have earned them more than enough to build the CCC!!!
As far as I know, dont believe them unless you hear it from the horses' mouth.
Lies seem to be the order of the day.
Thanks Hong Meng for your write-up. You have indeed made a great contribution.
Dear friends
in response to the above comments, i personally( not HM ) would like to rebuke any of the allegations, hey.tt members are well and feeling great because they served a LIVING GOD. they can come before God in faith and in prayer. God is Good all the time and all the TIME God is Good.
In response to non TT member's request here are the truths of the meeting with SP and the prayer meeting in my house.
After receiving my letter titled, “Healing and Reconciliation” to the BOD and the pastors, SP called me and invited me to meet with him. With his permission I went with my three closest buddies in the Church; Edwin Marsden, Ronnie Liew, and Sam Ho. Our meeting lasted two hours. We discussed some of the issues including the “witch hunt” which was experienced by three of us. Nothing was agreed or resolved. Ps Steven requested me, if I had any influence on them, to advise the Teh Tarik group to curtail their sms messages and emails. I told him I had no influence over the group but would pass on the request. Although Edwin tried, we did not manage to get any discussion going on the Truth Committee which was the main proposal in my letter. After the meeting the four of us agreed that we had achieved nothing. But it was a polite and cordial meeting.
My trip to HCMC was planned and booked since May. I was there to train some of our new Vietnamese speaking brothers. My partner for this trip, an Australian, would minister in a healing meeting. Although traveling on our own expenses, it would still be utterly irresponsible for me to postpone or cancel. (Please read my comment to AC’s letter to the BOD.) The healing meeting was on the very day of the EGM. I was in prayer for the EGM for an hour before I switched to praying for our meeting. The Lord spoke to me. He told me not to worry about the meeting in KL but to leave it to Him. He had sent me to HCMC for this meeting and I was to focus on the work He had sent me to do. Then I was at peace and able to focus on the assignment at hand. That night we saw mighty works of the Holy Spirit among the 60 persons present.
About a month after the AGM I initiated a prayer meeting in my house and the deacons were invited. One of my guidelines for the prayer meeting was that we would not talk about the AGM but to focus on seeking the Lord, for His presence to be with us, to pray for the church, the congregation especially the young people and the new believers, for healing and reconciliation and for God’s presence to be restored to the Church. We did ask God for forgiveness if what had been happening in the Church had in any way stumbled the new believers; asking God to preserve them. We also asked God for the truth to be revealed. Only one deacon and spouse joined us.
You may verify the above with the respective persons mentioned.
Hong Meng
To: Bro.Hong Meng
Thank you for responding to my request. Although it was none of my or anyone else's business on where you went or what you did, I am glad that you shared with us on what really happened as this will hopefully stop the rumours from continuing.
I was sharing with a church member last night on our church issues and when this person told me about the rumour concerning you, although I was quite sure it was a half truth/lie, I had no proof to back it up. But now that I have heard it directly from you, I can now go back to this church member to let the person know what really transpired. Thanks again.
3/10/08
RETIREMENT AGE.
It is very strange because when a church staff reached the age of 55 she was given the option to
a) retire
b) keep working at the same job but at 1/2 the pay
Well SP is well over 55, should he not be given the same options?
Seriously the BOD has to formulate a fair system for all employees of Calvary Church - SP and all the other pastors ARE employees. In the absence of actual employment letters, it goes without saying that all employers should be governed by the labour law.
JL
What, no employment letters for church staff?
Better report to the Labour Department!
Just a thought here which I would like to share with you all....
Before March this year I heard that S.P. have plans to celebrate his 40 years of ministry (since he only became pastor of Calvary in 1972, this would mean his ministry after he graduated from BIM) with a big bash. However, after the alleged illegal meeting of the TT crew & supporters, & the whole thing sort of 'blew up' in his face, I began to hear a different story...."oh no, we are NOT celebrating S.P.'s 40 years of ministry, but Calvary Church's 40th Anniversary."
And yet, when we think about it, which church [apart from Calvary, that is!] actually celebrates the Anniversary of a BUILDING? It doesn't add up!
i am an ex-Calvarite. I remember attending S.P.'s 25 years of ministry - it was a big bash, indeed! And later, I heard that a RM30,000/- gift was given to him for his CIM ministry on the occasion of his 30 years of ministry.
As you see, all this while Calvary has been celebrating & honouring S.P.'s years of ministry...have you all celebrated the church's anniversary before?
I wonder if the BOD are planning to give him a gift of RM40,000/- to honour his 40 years of ministry this 22/10/08! Since, as many have you have said before, the BOD has absolute power, which is really, really scary! They can do anything they want without getting the congregation's two-third majority consensus....
The BOD having alot of power is one thing but the scarest thing is that most of them except one are yes men, if not they would not have been selected by the nominating committee in the first place. And the nominating committee does not seem to have total independent nominees. Their list is vetted and approved by SP individually and the final list given by him will be considered as the list proposed by the nominating committee. This is what I understand from The True Story in this blog.
RM40,000.00 is an understatement. Think again.
Hey Uncle YTF/TT crews,
I was approached by one of the adults trying to convince me that SP is not guilty etc etc.
and one thing she/he said was...'Let's say if SP really did all these stuff, do you think he is able to convince all the other staffs/BOD to go according to his wishes?'
'Do you think that all of them are ALL YES MEN?'
'ALL OF THEM? the pastors and everyone?'
How do I answer if the next time im asked with this question again?
I hope you understand my ques! hahaha..
Thanks.
to: young person
there are many parts to your questions:
1. ask yourself, do you need anyone to convince you? whether its matters pertaining to the church, or matters pertaining to your personal decision such as, your hobbies, choice of fashions, hairstyles and etc?
2. after having read all the updates and posts and comments, are you personally CONVINCED AND CONVICTED ?
3. when this is a spiritual matters and governance and accountability matters, what is your own level of standard and integrity in your personal lives' conduct? you maybe young, it does not mean you do not have your own mind..
4. whenever you are approached by anyone, trying to convince you of something, first, i believe you would pray for God's wisdom and discernment.. next, you would talk to people whom you think you can trust.
5. to post right here and ask for suggestion from uncle/aunty/ or nenek or pakcik to tackle those
question "tak perasan rupanya"--sorry, i have to say this because, we simply dont know who you are. you may be "pak cik dan mak cik"
Dear young person,
I believe you are a young person from the way you write! :)
Ask yourself, "If the pastors and the BOD are not "yes-men" and "yes-women," would they have allowed S.P. to get away with pilfering (or stealing) RM.1.9million from the missions funds for SO MANY YEARS?"
Dear Young person,
No one should be approaching you, a young person, to convince you of anything. What you read in this blog is just information that the TT members have found out and are convinced that it is not right. The comments that you read are also the feelings of individual members who have experienced and seen things for themselves, which they believe is wrong.
You have to ask yourself, do you believe that what SP did is right?
If you say he is right, then so be it. But if you say he is wrong then you should stick to your own convictions.
God has put a conscience or a small voice inside of us that makes us uncomfortable when something is wrong. When we pray, the Holy Spirit will also make is feel uneasy when something is wrong. So pray and ask the Holy Spirit to reveal to you. Trust also in your own conscience.
As to the pastors and church staff, they must at least show that they believe in SP because he is their BOSS. Unless they do not want to work in church anymore, they must do and obey what they have been instructed to do. Disobedience means disloyalty to the Boss and that could mean no increment for next year.
The BOD are the people I believe are the yes-men/woman. They have to be because they were specially hand-picked and chosen by SP himself. This is evident because, we know 1 of the deacons now has been working outstation for a few years and have just come back to KL recently and he was nominated and voted in as deacon this year.
So young person, pray, and if your parents are church members, talk to them.
To Mak Cik jawab, I do not think that you are sincere in wanting to help this young person or any other person for that matter. To say that this is not the place to ask for advise is not fair to our Young Person here. It may be because he/she has no where to go for advise.
It would have been more polite, if you had suggested some names to this Young Person to go to instead of saying "tak perasan rupanya". And to say that he/she may be a "pak cik dan mak cik" because you don't know him/her is not an answer. It is an expression of your frustration, over what we have no idea.
Mak cik, please be a little nicer to our precious young people in church. Thank you.
Dear Karen,
Very sound advice indeed! I am glad that at least our youths are coming out and seeking for answers amidst all this confusion.
God have mercy on our church and we will ask God for a quick closure from this unfortunate series of events, which could have been handled otherwise if only the leadership stood up for what is right before God and man.
The longer this matter drags on, the further down the church leadership's image will fall. Indeed it is best they ask again how did the church landed itself in this situation and what is BOD going to do to resolve it? By giving vague assurances and skirting around issues will never bring this whole event to a peaceful resolution.
Let us return to Biblical injunctions and get matters resolved! We look to BOD and Pastors to come out and get matters resolved. Don't just say "Let God be God"!
God uses men and women of God to be His instruments to realise His plan on earth. We desire our church to be a powerful witness in our land and not be a stumbling block to Christian and non Christians alike.
God have mercy on us! Nevertheless we know that "in all these things we are more than conquerors through Christ who loves us..."
God is sovereign and gracious to His children.
From what I have heard from reliable sources, both S.P. and his wife have been making excuses for not returning the RM 1.9million to the church coffers. Their favourite excuse is, "It is the deacons who have given us this money. If we return it, it will show that we admit we are wrong. How can we be wrong when the deacons gave us this money?"
You see, BOD, they are pushing the blame on you! If you are honest, you will admit that all of you didn't know about this money being discreetly transferred to S.P.'s personal ministry accounts until it was exposed by the TT crew.
Thank you, Aunty Karen for backing me up! =)
I'm one of the few young ones who actually bothers on what is going on in church. Many of my peers do not want to know/care anymore as they can do nothing bout it. (Which is very true)
I know very well what my stand is and what is right.
and OTHER PEOPLE know that too and they have been trying to convince me, with questions.. eg the question asked above.
However, due to the fact that I only obtain reliable information once in a while, I have no evidence/proof to back up what I say when I'm confronted.
Thus, I'm always left dumb-founded when 'they' asked me all these questions ALTHOUGH I know what the truth is. It really sucks cuz I know that if I have done a lil more research, I know that I would be able to give them a satisfactory answer.
Thing is, if I answer in such a manner, like what Aunty Karen has said, I believe I'm gonna be told that I'm being very very bias. So how? I'm being judgemental, no evidence etc etc. (sigh, this is seriously driving me crazy!)
But anyway, thank you, to those who have answer my questions. =) I appreciate it.
and to dear MakCik jawab, I truly know where my stand is. I do need anyone to convince me, I just need a lil guidance on how to answer questions that are thrown to me.
I was indeed surprise that I have been given such a response bcuz there are SO MANY other people who commented in this blog in the form of anonymous and all, but I dun see you saying anything about it. And yes, I'm a young person. By now, I hope you can obviously realize that by how I write, with all the slangs and all. =)
but thank you for guiding me though.
Cheers.
greetings young person,perhaps we younger people should form a support group (for 2nd generation church members who wants to see a change), something like a mini teh tarik group :P
Hello young person
Praise the Lord that you chosed to be the young person who is willing to make a difference in this "saga" as said by the various comments. keep up your good work and i encourage you to help create greater awarness among the youngs. I believe the makcik jawab had some good points and she must be having some reasons to comment at point no 5.( just like my daughter who is young too, she mentioned that take it with pinch of salt--the polishing and seasoning by adults sometimes help the young ones to be more street smart)
"JIA YOU"
Hi Winds of Change,
Go4it! But Teh-tarik's already taken. You guys should go for Coffee Bean or Starbucks. OK OK, if you like TT, you may use YTT Crew - Young Truth & Transparency Crew.
2U A Young Person, Just hang in there. These problems were created by us "oldies" and we "oldies" will find a way out of it. If any "oldie" harass you, ask them to talk to Aunty Karen. However, if it is one of the young people like yourself questioning you, then I cannot help you much. You may call Winds of Change - he/she will help you. ha ha ha.
Don't go crazy and loose sleep over this. Not worth it. You and I should be enjoying the full life that God has for us. It is those who have not obeyed God's rules for living that should loose sleep.
BTW do you know who I am? Just say "hello" to me if you pass me by in church. I want to put a face to my prayers for when I pray for U. Don't need to answer me here.
God bless.
Love the idea of you younger ones starting a Junior TT support group - but don't use those copyrighted names like Star Bucks or Coffee Bean or you might get a lawsuit on your hands!
What really irks me is to find out this from Aunty Karen:
"The BOD are the people I believe are the yes-men/woman. They have to be because they were specially hand-picked and chosen by SP himself. This is evident because, we know 1 of the deacons now has been working outstation for a few years and have just come back to KL recently and he was nominated and voted in as deacon this year."
Faithful members like Trampled Rose & was it simple housewife had their membership demoted to associate when they went to BCM, but this particular 'yes-men' deacon still remained as a voting member after being outstation for a few years? And what's worse, was on the nominated list, too?
How can lah? Where got meaning?
Dear Family Members of Calvary Church Kuala Lumpur,
This is Ps. Kelvin T.L. Lim again from Johor Bahru. Just a thought of concern for the young people (youths) of CCKL... how are they taking to the 'SAGA'? After having read a couple of comments from the young people, I am wondering if they have a god-fearing mentor who is taking and making a stand for them. A person who will be to inspire them spiritually and with godly conduct in the midst of this challenging time.
3Rs... Real, Realistic & Relevant!
Kelvin T.L. Lim
Apologies... error.
A people who is able to inspire them both spiritually and with godly conduct in the midst of this challenging time.
Kelvin T.L. Lim
Dear Pastor Kelvin Lim,
I am very pleased to hear that even though you are far away in Johor Baru,you are still concerned for the young people of Calvary Church. Yes, I agree we need to help the young people. Maybe a regular gathering and praying, worshipping, sharing and fellowshipping.
We can even organize a camp and invite you as a speaker for the young people. Would you be able to take it up?
brilliant idea! a revival gathering for the youth, besides Ps. Kelvin, tt crew also can provide good speaker i suppose.
Dear YTF & Sokong Sesungguh,
It would be a blessing and privilege to be able to inspire and encourage the young people both spiritually with an awesome conduct. My humble request is that the invitation be done in a proper and former manner for accountability sake. Be blessed heaps.
I can be in-touch thorough my e-maill add. at: kelvinwazhere@gmail.com
3Rs... Real, Realistic & Relevant!
Kelvin
Hello Ps Kelvin
the young people in Calvary is a group who are God fearing, matured and sensible bcoz they have got God fearing parents.. they have grown to serve,love God more in their pursuit. we can never undermind their strength and ability. being a parent of 2 young adults, i saw how they had grown in their faith and how they knew what is happening in the leadership. they would not be like the oldies--at time so gracious and patience, they are action orientated. if ever there is any swift change, it must be the youth, but not so much the oldies--we are slow at times.
Dear Young at Heart,
WOW! That's awesome to hear. It is always great to know that there are god-fearing parents like yourself guiding your kids, teenagers and young adults alike.
As a pastor ministering to young people in JB... it is always challenging to help our young people when parents do not do their part. My prayer is that parents like your good self will continue standing in the gap for our young people. Keep up the awesome work. Be blessed heaps!
3Rs... Real, Realistic & Relevant!
Kelvin T.L. Lim
Dear all,
Thank youu for such encouragement and support from the TT Crews, youngsters and pastor. It's nice to know I'm not alone in this. =)
As much as I want to be part of the younger support grp of our own, I believe it's just gonna make things even more complicated.
If we were to form a grp like this, its definitely gonna affect the youths (CA's & CCSM) in church. Indirectly and directly. and that's one thing I wouldn want to happen. The last thing I wanna see is youths questioning/doubting/getting confused on this issue and consequently affect their walk with God.
It definitely affected my walk with God and I wouldn want this to happen to ANYONE. Let them (young ones) be protected from issues that would just make them question. There is already so much happening in youth and things are getting pretty tough. =/
I really appreciate what you guys have been doing for us (youths) and I'm so thankful that we have you as our support. All the prayers, encouragement and everything.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Aunty Karen has pen down my thoughts very accurately. Whatever is going now is 'their battle' and its not ours. God placed the TT Crews here for a reason and why they can dig out such evidences, not us, is bcuz God chooses the correct pple for the correct purposes.
I know whatever the 'older generation' is doing, are making a smoother path for the 'next (our) generation' to make a difference for God. =)
I believe our time would come for us to make a difference, to make an impact on our generation like what 'young at heart' has mentioned.
Therefore, lets not just make things any more complicated than this.
I hope you get my point, but also hope it does not offend anyone or such. It might seem that I'm a lil disinterested/coward or however you wanna describe it to get youths together for this cause, but really.. it's better for the adults to handle this. We can join them in prayer and support them.
Thank you parents, for bringin up such children that are God-fearing who loves God. Continue to support them. =)If they're not in youth service already, bring them! lol.
p.s. Aunty Karen, dun worry, when I see you next time..I would greet you.
Winds of change, you seem like a young person huh? lol. might be cool to exchange contacts. OR we might actually know each other! hahaha...
Ps Kelvin, if we ever need a speaker for the youths, we'll let you know! So glad ur so concern for us!
and the rest.. thank youuu!
God bless! =)
Dear A Young Person,
If you were my "kid" I would be so proud of you. Very well said and good thoughts from a faithful heart. Have I ever taught you before in CW or Teens class? (Trying to get some glory here, hee hee hee) Keep it that way. Don't need to answer.
Just pray for us, we will stick around till God says, "It is finished". "And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose...If God is for us, who can be against us?" (Rom 8:28 & 31)
God bless you.
a young person, good input...you're right, we shall just pray for the TT Uncles and Auntys for wisdom and strength to prevail through this. And I'm not suprised if we do know each other since the church is really not that big :)
To Young Person, I suggested invited Pastor Kelvin and you said " ..if ever we need a speaker we will let you know." You made it sound so uninterested in inviting him. I dont think you are the one making the decision on that, so try not to pour cold water on Pastor Kelvin.
I mean ".. I suggested inviting..."
I believe the young person wasn't trying to pour cold water on Pastor Kelvin or being uninterested. Being young, he or she may not as eloquent as "ytf" who I presume must be an "old" man.
Let the young ppl write the way they know best. Bless and love them, don't whack them-lah. Already got enough whacking from SP.
I noticed that most of the comments on each "article" did not even mention what was presented.
You know the issue at hand and it would be good for everyone to add their input on what was presented in the blog. The whole purpose of the blog is to let you know what is going on in the church and it would be good for the TT group to know your views, experiences, etc., etc.
Comments seem to ramble on so many things but hardly any comments on what was written on a certain issue. I can see the blog as being an avenue to keep in touch (which is good) but do focus on the issues the church is facing.
Readers for the sake of the church, PLEASE TRY AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE NOT BE SIDE-TRACKED ON OTHER ISSUES. DO COMMENT ON THE ISSUE PRESENTED.
For the young people - do not get involved in forming a group. Let the older ones do whatever need to be done. Just concentrate on growing in the Lord and be a lighthouse for the Lord.
"Anonymous YTF said...
To Young Person, I suggested invited Pastor Kelvin and you said " ..if ever we need a speaker we will let you know." You made it sound so uninterested in inviting him. I dont think you are the one making the decision on that, so try not to pour cold water on Pastor Kelvin."
This is funny. What is this blog about again?
Mr e, I am merely responding to the youth and Pastor Kelvin Lim's comments.
YTF, I know. Its cute.
Thank you Side Tracked for the timely reminder.
We do appreciate whatever comments that has been posted in the blog so far. Some comments are "revelations" for us and we are encouraged to know that we are not the only ones in this long drawn up-hill pursuit.
It is "long drawn" because we are constantly praying for God to move us, each step of the way. Praise God for He is Good, as He has led us step by step, giving us wisdom and guidance along the way.
He has also sent different members along at crucial times, to offer their assistance at that percise moment, without us sending out SOS calls or appealing to people to come forward. We know that God has a part for different members to play, at different times to fulfill His plans for our chruch.
Coming back to the blog, as said earlier, we are now needing to refocus on the POST EGM action plan. We are now posting write-ups by HM to help us rethink the issues at hand.
Do share with us your thoughts.
God bless.
mr e., again...i feel extremely blur on what you are trying to say with your comments...you don't seem to get to the point and like to..for lack of a better word, twist and turn? hmm....or perhaps i'm just blur blur. (read my comment under 'All these mud-slinging' post)
Blur blur ...
I just found it amusing. That's all.
The comments on this blog tend to go off tangent into unrelated issues. My sentiment was substantiated by Side Tracked in his/her earlier post.
I would like to ask that you clarify how exactly am I 'twisting and turning' though?
mr.e...i used 'twist and turn' coz in yr comments, u dont seem to explain exactly what u want to say and end up confusing us readers on what exactly your point is. like the comment to YTF: 'that's cute'..what does that mean? and why do u find it amusing? any hidden meaning on yr comments ar?
blur blur ... don't read too much into everything. My post at 10:41am pretty much explains everything.
Hong Meng's comment in the posting that - "The auditor reported only on the accounts of CIM. It would appear he did not look at the transactions from the side of the Missions Department. It is this side that we are really concerned about. In effect he could be barking up the wrong tree. The queried transactions emanated from the Missions Department. By the time the transactions ended in CIM they were already outside of the Church governance processes." This sums up precisely what I had posed to a Deacon on Sun Aug 17 morning which was that :-
Since the BOD were concerned whether there was any conflict of interest committed by SP which may then lead to CBT & thus they had enagaged a criminal lawyer & a forensic auditors to address this concern, why then did the BOD send the forensic auditors to look at CIM's accounts which is NOT our concern since it is a personal ministry, plus it is the recipient of the funds.
Any conflict of interest &/or CBT would be at CC & NOT at CIM; thus obviously, we have waste our sacrificial church funds on a "non-starter" investigation.
Also did the forensic auditors live up to their name by conducting forensic tests on the age of the BOD &/or Missions Committee minutes which certain Deacons &/or Missions Committee members were not aware of their existence when this dubious transfer of CC funds to CIM was first revealed by God to some concerned Calvarites?
The said Deacon just looked at me dumbfounded & he actually looked very blur at that point when the TRUTH struck home that for all the efforts that they had put in in the run-up to the EGM, it was ALL in vain as they had got the watchdog (i.e. the forensic auditors) to bark up the wrong tree.
Truth Prevails..."From what I have heard from reliable sources, both S.P. and his wife have been making excuses for not returning the RM 1.9million to the church coffers. Their favourite excuse is, "It is the deacons who have given us this money. If we return it, it will show that we admit we are wrong. How can we be wrong when the deacons gave us this money?"
For the truth to prevails it stands to reason that PO (and any sycophant of the same ilk) and the rest of BOD knowingly or unknowingly invoved in the illegitimate or dubious transfer of funds (designated for or otherwise for missions etc)to CIM to admit that they were wrong. As good stewards of God's property they should exercise due diligence to ensure that all church funds are fully accounted for and channeled. Church folks in good faith sacrifice in order to make the offerings and not to pad SP retirement fund (CIM or whatever his notion of it). So this is a first salvo to the BOD concerned to CONfess in order to show that you were sincerely wrong to beckon or bend to SP behest or whim. Your CONtriteness and willingness to admit you were wrong will not only grant you immunity but shows that you remain good stewards/stewardess of our Lord. Trust me all it takes is one or two (which already is happening) of you to abandon the creaking shipboard. You do not want to be left holding the bag!!! You see already SP/SAP is absolving themselves and laying the blame on PO and BOD for the mistranfer. Divide and conquer has been the MO of the CEO. Remember SP father wanted him to be a lawyer in one of his sermons we heard ealrier this year. Govern yourself accordingly.
Hi Logically Speaking,
Maybe they double and triple count attendance of pastors and ministerial staff who are required to attend all services.
Mayble, yes, maybe, SP gets 100 counts for each service, so 3 services, 3x100=300 counts; SAP=200,PO=100, TO=100, SK=100, RY=100, CL=200(he's CC's Khairy mah), RY=200 (he's chief counter), DS=50 (he's still junior Associate), JC=75 (altho still Asst Pas, he's more senior than DS)...
Oh dear, still can't add up to +8k. Maybe, Logically Speaking, your theory holds some water. You're really smart, brader (or r u sis)
Dear "Having Fun",
Stop your nonsense and sarcasm. Your immaturity really shows. If you don't like this blog, please go elsewhere and maybe, your immaturity has some "use".
Whoever you are, stop it!!! You make a FOOL of yourself. Have some decency!
'having fun' and his alter ego 'having lots of fun' is demonised i think. he/she can't help it, its the demons making him/her do this. we shall just pray for this poor soul
Dear "Having lots of fun"
Brother, let me pray for you like Winslow did.
Our Lord Jesus, I plead your blood to cover my brother for all the ugly things he has said. I know he is not the one saying them, but the Devil in him.
Devil, I command you to let go of my brother. You certainly have no control over him as Christ has won the final victory.
Despite his deep hatred and bitterness, Lord I pray you will set him free, and I thank you for it.
In Jesus' name. Amen
"Having lots of fun", I urge you brother to let go of your hatred and bitterness, either for yourself or for somebody else. It's not worth it. God loves you, and He really does. And I love you too as God would enable me.
Remember, each time you post hatred and bitterness on this blog, I'm going to pray this prayer for you. I mean it, my brother and God's DEFINITELY listening.
Dear brothers & sisters in Christ,
We thank you for your prayers for those who have commented negatively here. Indeed nothing works better than PRAYER. Apostle Paul teaches us to, “Correct, rebuke and encourage – with great patience and careful instruction” (2 Tim 4:2) so, let us respond to such comments with “great patience and careful instruction”. Let us all refrain from anger and harsh words.
To our dear brothers and sisters who have received some unkind remarks through this blog, please be encouraged by these words from the Bible, "Because you have made the Lord, who is my refuge, even the Most High, your dwelling place, no evil shall befall you, nor shall any plague come near your dwelling; for He shall give His angels charge over you, to keep you in all your ways." (Ps 91:9-11)
To the rest of us who are pursuing on, take hold of this promise, “For God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power and of love and of a sound mind” (2 Tim 1:7).
We need to continue to pray for everyone and don’t forget to put on these –
“the whole armour of God,…
…having girded your waist with truth,
…having put on the breastplate of righteousness,
…having shod your feet with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
…taking the shield of faith with which you will be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked one.
…take the helmet of salvation,
…the sword of the Spirit, which is the Word of God.” (Eph 6:13-17)
God bless.
Having Fun,
I am sorry you are so sick. Please make appointment with Calvary Life Ministry for counselling & prayer. You need it.
To "Having Fun" & "Having Lots of Fun",
As they say "Don't play with fire for fear that you may get singed (i.e. burnt)"
More so when you are playing on a Christian blog, you may get burnt by God in you know where.
So as my brother PCK would always say - "Don't play play ah!"
It looks like “having fun” has decided to visit us again to cause diversion to our trend of thoughts. Let us not be distracted by him or his remarks. We believe he is seeking for attention and looks like this is the place he can vent out his frustrations without being identified. We count it a privilege that he has found a place to release his tension. Let us all exercise love for our dear fellow Christian by letting him/her say his/her peace. Maybe he /she can find rest for his/her soul here.
Jesus told us, “Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven”. (Matt 5:44-45)
However, we suggest to all readers to leave “Having fun” alone. DO NOT respond to his/her comment. Just move on with the discussion as you feel led to.
We have also decided NOT TO delete “having fun’s” comments so that readers who are not acquainted with us will read for themselves, the kind of profanity that can come out of SP & SAP’s supporters’ mouth or in this case pen.
Let us all rejoice that this blog is able to bless brothers & sisters in Christ who are suffering from different kinds of hurt by allowing them "freedom" to speak. Praise the Lord God Almight who reigns over all.
New comments are not allowed.