(30.04.09 - Latest ADDENDUM at the end of this article : Bro Hong Meng’s response to Josh’s comments @ April 29, 2009 10:43 AM )
“What did he do wrong? Who did he offend?” Very good questions indeed.
The issues at Calvary Church had taken such convoluted turns over such an extended period of time that most of us have forgotten what the real issues are. But for those of us who are burdened and had laboured for more than a year, we have kept the real issues in focus, not allowing ourselves to be distracted by the witch hunt, personal attacks, victimization and even condemnation from the pulpit. It is not about personal hurt or personal offences, though there must have been many judging by the outpouring in the blog and at the recent EGM.
The real issues are about the lack of transparency and accountability in dealing with Church matters especially with regards to finance management, are about abuse of powers and the obstinate resistance to be held accountable for mistakes and misdeeds, and are about trying to protect and preserve unreasonable power and authority in the Church.
So what are the real issues? What has been done to address these issues? Here’s an attempt to re-cap and consolidate one year’s events to a few paragraphs.
#1 - The Issue on the Extended Ministries
Two simple questions were asked at the 2007 AGM:
1) “Is CalvaryLand reflected in the Balance Sheet of the Church?”
2) “Are the financials of the Extended Ministries included in the Church accounts?”
From the answers given to these two questions, and the subsequent follow-up by a concerned member, it was established that the Church leadership deemed Calvaryland as well as ALL the Extended Ministries as not belonging to the Church. They were independent and not accountable to members of the Church. (To read HM's article, click on“The Extended Ministries”)
Why do we say so?
These ministries had their own bank accounts and payrolls. They were even outside of the supervision of the Board of Deacons. Up to now there remained no satisfactory answers from the Board to the following questions.
a) “If they did not belong to the Church to whom did they belong?”
b) “What good reason and what benefit to the Church are there to make them separate and independent?”
At the 2008 AGM, we were told in no uncertain terms that the accounts of the Extended Ministries were not given to the members because these ministries did not belong to the Church. There was absolutely no willingness to return these ministries to our Church ownership. One of our Auditors confirmed beyond all doubts that ALL the accounts of ALL the ministries of the Church must be presented to the members. Even then, an attempt was made to avoid giving the members the accounts by calling for a vote to remain status quo, meaning there is no need to furnish the members with the Extended Ministries accounts.
Through divine intervention, and perhaps because members were adequately informed through the two Teh-Tarik Sessions, the members voted for the accounts to be given to the members including those of the Extended Ministries, with a majority of about 60 votes. With this majority vote for the provision of the audited accounts of the Extended Ministries to the members, it can be assumed that the ownership of these ministries would be returned to the Church. Praise the Lord for this.
Please remember that the Extended Ministries were not willingly or happily returned to the Church ownership. The Board resisted all the way but the members decided and voted rightly. If members had been ignorant or manipulated to vote to remain status quo at last year's AGM, the Church would have lost Calvary Land and the Extended Ministries forever. Again, God is to be praised for causing Church members to vote wisely last year.
# 2 - The Issue of Calvary International Ministry (CIM)
The 2008 AGM also sowed the seed for the revelations on CIM. Most of us knew that CIM was a personal ministry of Senior Pastor (SP) established in 2002. It was announced publicly and with great fanfare that the Church contributed RM30,000 for SP’s 30 years of service, to kick off CIM. Then through the effort of a few concerned members, it was gradually exposed that about RM1.9 million had been transferred from the Missions Department to CIM from 2002 to 2007. The almost automatic transfer of RM200,000 per year from Missions Department to CIM was already put in place and it would have continued for years to come if not for the sudden exposure. (To read HM's article, click on “Healing and Reconciliation" 3rd Update)
Why the fanfare on the first RM30,000 and then the secrecy on the RM1.9 million transferred subsequently into CIM, a personal ministry of SP?
Even with the unexpected exposure, the Board of Deacons (BOD) refused to acknowledge any mistake or wrong doing. They engaged a forensic accountant and a criminal lawyer to browbeat and intimidate the members, thus justifying their actions. So at the EGM in August 2008, it was made abundantly clear that the money given to CIM, would be kept in CIM bank account, to fulfil the objectives of CIM.
Again through divine intervention, it was declared beyond all doubts by the lawyer that CIM was a personal ministry and had nothing to do with Calvary Church. With this confirmation, CIM membership in NECF could not be sustained. With its membership status in NECF “rectified”, CIM could not maintain a bank account.
What to do with the RM1.1 million still in CIM bank account?
CIM had to “release” it back to the Missions Department. The CIM money did not come back to the Church willingly or cheerfully. They had no choice. CIM had no intention of retuning the money. They were forced to return the balance money because of the effort of some concerned members.
Now that the ownership of the Extended Ministries had been established and the money in CIM account had been returned to the Church, why then the continuing aggravation?
Because the fundamental issues had not been dealt with and unless they are dealt with properly and conclusively the issues like the Extended Ministries and CIM could resurface again. Up till today, the BOD have not acknowledged that the Extended Ministries do belong to the Church. From the recent EGM where 4 Resolutions were put up for adoption by Church members, they have continued to evade the issue of the actual ownership of the Extended Ministries.
This is an issue of utmost importance because there are least 10 ministries currently parked under Extended Ministries of which a few are Income generating ministries which collects money for services rendered which are also open the the public.
#3 - The Fundamental Issues
At the foundation of the Church Constitution lies the root of all our problems. On the surface the Constitution looks acceptable but when analysed properly it gives the Senior Pastor and the Board of Deacons almost dictatorial power.
As we have seen in the recent AGMs & EGMs, they have no qualms about using their constitutional powers to control the Church and deny members their basic rights. The BOD also abused its powers in the witch hunt of members deemed unsubmissive to them, in rejecting the Resolutions put in for the EGM, in the Kangaroo Court on Dr Lum and in his eventual sacking as a church member.
To appear to satisfy the demands for justice and fairness by concerned members, they set up a Constitutional Review Committee. Two members appointed to the Committee had indicated that they are not suited for the assignment yet they were appointed. (To read HM's article, click on “The Need for Constitutional Amendments”)
What have we heard from this Committee since the August EGM?
The four resolutions put up for the April 2009 EGM were from the Financial Governance Task Force (FGTF). The Constitution must be amended to provide adequate checks and balances without hindering the work of the Church. From what was presented by the BOD, it would appear that the instruction to the Committee could be that the Constitution may be amended but the supremacy of the Senior Pastor, “Ketuanan Senior Pastor”, must be retained.
Why are they restricted to only looking at the financial processes?
The FGTF appears to be doing a good work but their mandate does not go far enough. Their mandate should cover all aspects of governance including organization structures, legal structures, human resource procedures and processes, management processes, risks management and relationship with the General Council and the authorities.
Who does Missions Department report to?
Another fundamental issue is the extra-constitutional powers and authority of the Missions Department. This department which receives all our Faith Promise giving, Monthly Missions Offerings and Designated Offerings, amounting to a few millions a year is not covered by the Church Constitution. It operates from a Missions Manual which had not been approved by the Church members. The BOD also has little or no control over its decisions and operations.
The Missions Committee is appointed by the Senior Pastor and the Missions Director. This results in a Missions Department that is outside of members control except for the tabling of the Annual Accounts at the AGM. Over the years the information content of these accounts had been diluted such that we learn nothing much from it. The Missions Department and all its components must be covered by the Church Constitution and brought back under the BOD’s control and supervision with ultimate responsibility to the members at General Meetings.
Is the Board moving forward with the Constitution Review and improving governance?
Yes but not much, more cosmetic than real. They are treating some minor symptoms but not curing the sickness. They are so protective of the status quo that they ignore the normal rules of meetings and refused members amendments to their resolutions at the recent EGM. They would rather go back to amend the resolutions themselves and then represent them again at, yet another meeting. This process can go on forever.
It would have been more efficient if members were allowed to agree on the amendments and have the resolutions passed as amended. If this route was adopted by the BOD, by now, the four Resolutions would have been done with. However, they are so fearful that allowing Church members this fundamental right would cause them to lose their powers and control over the Church.
“What did he do wrong? Who did he offend?”
We all know that we are forgiven by God and we are willing to forgive others. However, in our church context now, it is not just about forgiving. It is about getting our foundation made right. It is about the need for a Constitution Review. It is about truthful and transparent reporting to Church members about important decisions and happenings.
Was there admission of mistakes or wrong doing? Was there remorse or repentance? Was there a genuine desire to rectify the situation to prevent such problems from happening again?
When something is wrong, it must be admitted to and it must be made right.
Thus far what had been made right was not done willingly or voluntarily. It was extracted through persistent hard work by some concerned members.
Other than heartaches, brokenness, vilification, condemnation and curses, what have the concerned members gained from all this?
Nothing! Except the knowledge that we have acted in obedience to God’s will - To pursue the need for change in the current system of Church Administration, so that the future generations can worship God in Calvary Church with no qualms of possible "skeletons in the closet" and that is most important to TTG.
Article contributed by Bro Wong Hong Meng
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ADDENDUM added on 21 April 2009.
Three of the five resolutions tabled at the April EGM relating to financial provisions contained input, comments and recommendations from the FGTF. However, the proposed resolutions were not drafted or put up by the FGTF at the EGM. I stand corrected.
Hong Meng
****************************************************
ADDENDUM: Bro Hong Meng’s response to Josh’s comments @ April 29, 2009 10:43 AM
Josh said…
It has been some time since our Easter amnesty and after the blessed weekend, I took some time off from CT to clear my thoughts. Work has since overtaken a lot of that free time.
"Need more be said?" however got me thinking again. There's enough speculation and self interpretation posted for plausible deniability I guess... meaning it ain't fact why even bother.
CT has been keen to take the high road on the nature of postings, only to turn a blind eye when it suits them. See how a speculative posting is allowed to dwell without response? Then again, it's probably the same in CU.
But truly I agree, this is magnifying peanuts. More importantly is the AGM in June.
In that respect, I wholeheartedly question Hong Meng's intention in his article "What is it all about". He writes about focusing on the "real issues" and then highlights the hurt and offences etc. Why not focus on the issues instead of fanning the fire?
HM’s response…
I reread the article and I am afraid I cannot see how you came to the conclusion that I had highlighted the hurt and offences. Perhaps we could ask the readers of Calvary Today whether they agree with you. Intentions are very difficult to demonstrate much less prove or disprove. Only God knows our true intentions. And I am fully aware I have to answer to Him. You have every right to question my intentions just as I have to question yours in remaining anonymous. What are you afraid of that you cannot stand in the light? We must not be afraid of vilification if we are standing for truth and righteousness.
Josh said…
He writes that "If members had been ignorant or manipulated to vote to remain status quo at last year's AGM, the Church would have lost Calvary Land and the Extended Ministries forever." Think about it... firstly, if Calverites had voted to maintain status quo they are either ignorant or manipulated? And do you take all Calverites for fools if it were to come to light that these initiatives were lost? What do you think it would do to the bigger scheme of things? I will no doubt be vilified by supporters of CT, but Hong Meng, if you take the role of prosecutor, leave out your personal inclinations.
HM’s response…
You are absolutely right. Our members are no fools. But can they be ignorant? Yes, not because they are dumb but because relevant and necessary information had been withheld from them. Accountability is providing the information before they are asked for. In that the BOD had failed. Who knew, before the 2007 AGM, that Calvary Land and the Extended Ministries did not belong to the Church? Perhaps only some deacons and some pastors. I did not know. Therefore I asked the two questions. Who knew that besides the RM30,000 to kick off CIM, about RM1.9 million was transferred into CIM from the Missions Department? Perhaps some deacons did not even know that. We can be ignorant simply because we trust and therefore we don’t ask.
Can they be manipulated? Yes, spiritual authority is a very powerful thing. We have been conditioned not to question those in positions of spiritual authority. “Trust and obey” and the all too commonly misused, “Touch not God’s anointed”. Take for example the vote on the RM150 million for the CCC. Asking members to stand up in support of the Church leadership cannot be taken to be a vote on a motion to approve the RM150 million. It was unconstitutional and in my view, manipulative. So we stood up as commanded from the pulpit and then it was minuted that the members had approved the RM150 million. Really?
Was I the prosecutor at the 2008 AGM? I only spoke twice. The first time to amend the minutes as my two questions in 2007 were not minuted. The second time was to read out from a prepare script to ask for the accounts not to be tabled for adoption by the AGM but to defer it to when the accounts of the Extended Ministries could be included. I just presented the situation to the members. Others added their comments. That they voted for the accounts to be annexed is proof enough it was not my personal inclination. It was the will of the members.
Josh said…
I have genuine reasons for this because I realize I do know you. And while I reserve my personal opinion of you as private, I am concerned at the subtle work of your pen.
The issues at hand are this:
1. Structural - via the AGM, FGTF etc. this are being addressed. If we are concerned about the slow pace of development, the right forum is the AGM. To be fair, I think change is imminent and deserves a chance. I can think of reasons why Calvaryland for example can operate better outside the structure of the church, but at the same time expect financial accountability on the account of my having participated in funding the program.
HM’s response…
Not only the slow pace of development but the fact is that the Committees cannot be said to be independent and impartial. You said the right forum is the AGM. That is debatable. But the fact is that it is the only forum available to the concerned members. The members need to know what has happened in the last one year. They must exercise their membership responsibility with due care and diligence. They must vote wisely as they did at the last year’s AGM. But would the seven resolutions submitted by the concerned members be on the table?
Josh said…
I would lump CIM under this issue. Again, I see no useful reason for stating that they did not return the money "cheerfully". This matter was disputed and the resolution meant that monies was transferred back. There was no unaccounted use of the funds and the onus is now on ensuring that any future transfer of funds are verified and accounted for.
HM’s response…
CIM was not resolved. An attempt was made at the August EGM to justify their actions. Did the members accept the reports from the forensic accountant and the lawyer? There was no vote. We were not allowed to say whether we accept their justification or not. The reports were not made available to the members. So it was assumed that it was resolved. It was assumed to be even more resolved when the money was returned. The money was returned because CIM was no longer a legal entity. The money was not returned as a solution to the dispute. Josh, what happened in CIM was wrong. I am not in a position to argue on the legality of the fund transfer but definitely, it was morally wrong. If our Church was registered as a company or a society it would be CBT. And many churches are so registered.
Josh said…
A lot of opinions have been offered by various people - some using multiple aliases - both pro and con. Senior Pastor did not have to make that apology on Easter service. Not in front of the whole church and visitors. Maybe time for us to go beyond the hurts and give love a chance to cover the multitude of sin.
HM’s response…
Was that an apology? When an apology is prefixed with an “If”, at best it was a half-hearted apology. And if I am not wrong, the “If” was in connection to “hurt”. As I have said, it is not about hurt and offences. It is about transparency, accountability and governance. It is about the extended ministries being taken away from church ownership without as much as an “excuse me”. It is about the RM200,000 a year transfer from Missions Department to CIM as well as the RM41,000 contributed by us for the Indonesian earthquake victims and not received by them. Would there be an apology for these mistakes? Must the constitution be amended such that these mistakes would not be repeated?
Yes, SP did not have to make that apology. Why did he?
Yes, give love a chance. Show that to Dr Lum, please.
Josh said…
On each side of the argument, sentiments run high and self-righteousness is there for all to see. But no one, least of all myself, is perfect. The fundamental grace of our faith is one of reconciliation.
HM’s response…
None of us are perfect. But when obvious faults and serious weaknesses are so apparent in the procedures and processes we must make all effort to correct them as soon as possible. That is how we can become less and less spotty before God. Reconcile we must but the mistakes and wrong-doings must not be allowed to happen again. Almost as soon as the CIM transfers were revealed in May 2008 I asked for healing and reconciliation through a Truth Committee and a Constitution Review Committee. I offered myself and my friends to be part of the process but it fell on deaf ears.
Josh said…
And to be an agent for Godly change, Hong Meng, even me, we need to set aside the personal agenda.
HM’s response…
Personal agenda? What possible personal agenda could I have? I have no ambition to be a pastor or a deacon. I have no desire to manage or run the church. I am already retired. I have told my TTG friends that in August 2008 whilst in HCMC, the Lord convicted me that I am not to hold any position in Calvary Church, whether elected or appointed. I did not want them to have any misplaced expectation. I will serve the Lord but with no position.
No, my agenda is not personal, but corporate (as in the body). Lawyer KK Wong observed rightly. He said, he had never seen a group of church members who were so protective of church money. Yes, my agenda and those of my TTG friends is to protect the church money. That is stewardship. To be accountable to God and man for the money He entrusted to us and to hold those to whom we transferred that stewardship to be similarly accountable. I am not prepared to accept the erroneous teaching that what I give to the Church I cannot ask question. Even Moses provided accountability.
Josh said…
I have genuine reasons for this because I realize I do know you. And while I reserve my personal opinion of you as private, ... (quoting your earlier statement)
I shall not say more because you know precisely what I mean.
HM’s response…
Josh, it is grossly unfair that you can claim to know me personally whilst I have no inkling who you are. You have the advantage of being able to evaluate what I say against what you know of me. I do not have that advantage. Therefore I suggest that we meet one on one, "empat mata", without the need for others to know. Then I can explain to you my position and I can understand yours too. However if you are a sister, then I can only meet you together with my wife. Or you can meet me together with your husband.
I also issue out an open invitation. I am prepared to explain my position and the basis thereof to any member, or group of members, of Calvary Church. Just set it up and notify me through Calvary Today. Then they can come to their own conclusion as to my intentions. I will of course be accompanied by one or more of my friends as witnesses.
Posted on April 30, 2009
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1. Stop Giving to Calvary. If you wish, you may re-direct your giving to worthy Christian organisations, Bible schools, orphanages, smaller churches which are struggling financially or non-church sponsored missionaries or missions work. However, if God specifically tells you to give to Calvary or you are uncomfortable about not giving to Calvary, please continue to do so.
2. Pray. Pray for God's forgivessness and cleansing of our Church as a body for all the injustice, unethical practices and bad stewardship that we have condoned or been blind to over the years. Pray against the principalities and evil forces that have crowded the minds and vision of our leaders. Pray for unrighteousness, covetousness and pride to be removed from our midst. Pray for God's truth and sovereign will to fall afresh on our Church. Pray for His healing for our broken hurting Church.
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136 comments:
Dear Hong Meng and TTG,
Thank you for your well written and summarized report.
It also helps us to re-focus on the main issues and not diverted to other minor matters.
Thanks you brother for your refreshing ibformations
JW
Dear Hong Meng
Thank you. It is good that we return our focus to the initial issues instead of being side tracked by other issues.
I received a phone call asking me if i was still attending CC as apparently she was informed by somebody they have not seen me. The caller also asked if i have joined another church. Much as she would like me to say yes, I told her no - I am still with CC. I guess a lot of us will or have received such "check up" phone calls - all the more reason as the AGM is drawing near.
What we are facing here is akin to a traffic jam as both parties are not giving way - perhaps what we need here today is a traffic policeman but who can that be? who can be of higher authority to decide how we can flow and make his or her decisions in a fair and just manner? Can we find a Moses in our midst?
Yes, these are issues and concerns all members and worshippers and even any worshippers or members of other churches need to be fully aware off in the governance of their churches.
Right now, the urgency of the matter is inevitable, all calvarites must rise up to seriously commit ourselves to promote good governance issues in spite of all our 'spirituality'. We have to speak with one voice to call for our sp and bod to seriously and urgently address the 'saga'. I can sensed a tremendous victory for the TTG and concerned members if the church management is still clinging on to their dictatorial/abusive/arrogant attitude.
Praise God for His strength and wisdom for the TTG and concerned members.
These comments are re-posted here because they address the same issues as this post.
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A Worshipper's Analysis said...
The ball is in PG's court to seriously consider his position as SP. Many events point to the fact that he and BOD humbly seek the Lord for direction:
1. The church is not growing for many years and increasing no. of worshippers sense the lost of anointing in the leadership. For Christ's sake, it should not be allowed to continue.
2. Growing strife and hurt in the church is a sign that PG has lost his spiritual leadership. Both staff and members are 'cut-off' for standing up for TTG. Surely, these are not ways of Christ but a leader desperately clinging on to power and personal agenda.
3. The surfacing of financial abuse is too evident to ignore. Any leader of high integrity and character would have resigned over being caught for the silence transfer of money from church funds to personal ministry.
4. The gradual shift of turning church into business and having PG's children helming over profitable arms do not augur well for the church. The mere intention of one day to spin off CCM and CLM as independent bodies is unimaginable. Rightly, all extended ministries should now be reclassified as church departments.
5. All these years, BOD has failed the congregation to be incapable stewards or trustees of congregation's giving. What's meant for Kingdom work ended up into funds stacked up in various extended ministries and CIM. Lots of funds were channelled to ministries of PG's close friends for purpose more of position posturing.
6. Latest list of deacon nominees is clear reflection of how apathetic the state of affairs. The weak constitution is long due to be thrown out. It gives unfettered power to one man in PG to manipulate the entire process of running the church to the point of selecting the deacons. The current list of nominees is just unconvincing to say the least.
7. The entire Pastoral team and BOD just don't have the character and heart of Christ to build His church in the way of what Christ wants as His bride. They play politics to the point of 'cutting off' or 'ignoring you' or 'casting you in bad light' in order to allow the church to 'look good'.
8. The CCC project is a clear sign that the season of time is not with the project. Calvaryland once the 'vision' of PG is never mentioned again by him. The consequence of a man's vision is a heavy toll to pay by the many.
9. The hardness in the hearts of leadership is so evident in the recent sacking of DR Lum. Despite pleading throughout the recent EGM, PG and BOD were unmoved.This speaks volume.
10. Saddest part of all is many worshippers were oblivious to real heart of Christ to see ministry unto one another. If leadership is successful in creating believers to be followers of PG and CC, believers will miss out on greater things from the Lord.
April 19, 2009 7:46 PM
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Such clear and comprehensive analysis said...
Dear A Worshipper's Analysis, I am really pleased to read your well written summary of the overall picture of the current situation in Calvary Church. So clear, simple to understand and yet comprehensive.
I really pray that you are a Voting Church member of Calvary Church so that you can attend the coming AGM and stand up to give your analysis to the leaders and members of the church. Praise God.
April 19, 2009 10:26 PM
Dear Witchhunted,
Looks like they are still playing this game and strategy.
I myself received a call too from that very 'famous' lady in church.
First she would call other church members first and ask about where this particular member is and whether they know that he or she is attending another church.
Then she would call this particular member and start asking how are you. Long time no see. Church is concerned about the welfare of its members, etc. But basically they want to find out whether you are attending another church. If you say YES, then there goes your church VOTING MEMBERSHIP. Somehow I got the feeling that the more voting members that are demoted, the better her chances are in her salary review, bonus and promotion.
I even heard of one case, when she called a particular member and when the person was not in, she would try to ask the child who picked up the call about whether his/hers mother was attending another church. How low can one stoop? THIS IS A CHURCH!!!!! Does being a member of CC means you cannot attend another church???
WHAT HAS BECOME OF CALVARY CHURCH????
This is a must read unpdated summary and will benefit and enlighten all Calvarites whatever classification your membership status.
Please draw this update to especially for those who have diaried to attend the AGM. This is the true common ground that we have to achieve (by the way there's no intent here to embarass "Discernment Needed") borrowing his choice of word.
Hi Dear Voting Member
I am not surprised, I also discovered that they have so boldly declared that CT Administrator = Joel Wong, and also so proudly declared that he/she is the first person to discovered who the CT adminstrator is, they are witch hunting in "MULTI-PRONG APPROACH"
To : Dear Joel Wong
I sincerely appeal to you, do not be intimidated and you had been very honest in declaring yourself that you are the owner of your own PERSONAL blog but not Calvary Today, I believe in you because you are never a liar..
I believe CT is owned by big number of people judging from the way the comments flow.
What is true worship?
Some people have wrongly equated singing gospel songs as worshipping God.
One can worship God while singing; but singing alone does does not mean that one is worshipping God.
Praise is the same way.
Singing is not synonymous with praising God.
Worship and praise are attitudes of the heart and are demonstrated by our actions of obedience to God.
In fact, the HIGHEST form of worship is OBEDIENCE TO GOD.
Yes, we can worship and praise God while singing inspiring songs from our hearts; however, it is the voice of the heart that God hears, not just the words of a song.
God states in the Bible that there are many who draw near to Him with their lips, but their hearts are far from Him. God calls these people hypocrites.
Hello Traffic Jam. Good observation. It's so sad that the church can come to such a state. To top it all is that none of the Christian Bodies can be policeman/Moses in our case here to help.
I think I read Bro Vijay in the other post say he will encourage necf, aog, cfm to have open blogs like CT so that christians can have a place to air their concerns. After what we are going thru, I think they really should have a way to listen to christian public on issues. Maybe then we cc members can all write to then to come in.
Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
This is the first and great commandment.
And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
Too stringent controls
There should a measure of control by the CT administrator to sieve out vulgar comments.
However, when the controls are too stringent, you will lose the very asset of having CT in the first place which keeping in touch with the heart and soul of your contributors. Eventually you will have views coming out which are really in essence the very same views of the CT administrator. This will be a distortion of what is really going on out there. Then, you will not know how you stand with the very people who support you and CT will become little different from CU & CK, fundamentally the thoughts of SP rather then that of the congregation. That is why I do not subscribe to CU & CK.
three questions to brother Hong meng.
item #1--financial reports on all extended ministries from now on will be included as an attachment in the annual report. so why is this matter still a problem?
item #2--CIM never used any funds except for the OBJECTIVES stated during it's inception. It has been agreed on that the church will stop transferring funds to CIM. THe remaining cash HAS not been misappropriated in any way, unless you have opposing evidence. WHY is this still a problem, when all that's left is to decide with what to do with that 1.1 million?
item #3--senior pastor is the ONLY member of the board of deacons that is not elected by the members. And after hearing suh shian's testimony (about senior pastor's independence in the nominating comittee), why are we to doubt the ability of a board, CHOSEN BY MEMBERS to handle the "dictatorial power" you mentioned? (unless of course she is lying) if the board is incompetent, simply to elect a different board in the next AGM would be the answer would it not? after all, the members choose.
"Thus far what had been made right was not done willingly or voluntarily. It was extracted through persistent hard work by some concerned members."
can someone give me an example of this?
can someone explain further on the nature of the witch hunt that the BOD embarked on in rejecting the resolutions made for the EGM?
Thanks Bro. Hong Meng for re-focusing on the issues at hand. It is not about personality or witch-hunting but I believe the intention of TTG is to restore integrity, transparency and good administrative practices. It saddens me that SP and Board of Deacons are still holding to their position arrogantly and without any admission of wrong doing, confession and reconciliation with those who seeks truth. My wife and I have vowed not to give a single dime to CC or the CCC until things are put right. May God have mercy on all of us.I am totally disillusioned with SP and Board of Deacons for the state of denial and arrogance to put things right for the sake of the Body of Christ. Any sensible person would step down and we they are behaving like our ruling party BN.
Aiyo Confused the SP through BOD promised us a lot but up till today not in sight. Only put up shows and dramas to tell us they are doing a lot but actually a lot of doing but we have not moved an inch.
I am not Hong Meng but just give my 2 sen worth only.
#1. They said they will give us the extended ministries report by June last year (2008). Have any one seen them? Maybe I under coconut shell but I went to all the special EGMs, still I never seen them give out. So until we actually see it with our own eyes, Bro HM, please continue to ask for them on our behalf.
#2. walaiwei, so CIM objective is to pay for business class for pastors to fly to attend conference? And this is missions work lah to you? Thx for telling me, I also shall keep my faith promise money to fly economy class to attend Christian conference. Missions also right?
#3. Look like we got liars in our church. Some say SP is in every thing, then suh shian (sorry but I really don’t know this person) say another thing. Who’s the liar? Some ex-staff say SP put leg on table but another ex-staff (I think she was the church receptionist) say SP is ………. Very good. (can’t remember her words) Who’s the liar? CT photo show Dr Lum and others praying outside church to go to inquiry but Sis Peggy say that she was waiting inside to hear Dr Lum (give idea that Dr Lum did not go). Who’s the liar?
So HM is right. We need Truth Committee.
Addressing all Church Members and Friends whose Comments we did not publish.
CT is appreciative of the many Comments placed here by you and we take note of all that is said. We value those who gave us positive encouragements. We also hear those who have given us negative remarks. Here we give a gentle reminder to all and we quote from our side panel:
"The primary purpose is to keep members and regular worshippers of Calvary Church, KL updated on issues and concerns in our church today and to provide a platform for them to express their views, comments and concerns and provide feedback on matters raised, so that God's will and purposes for our lives and for our church may be fulfilled to His glory." Also,
“When posting comments, please do so responsibly without using offensive, abusive, hateful, malicious, vulgar or condemning words. Always be respectful of one another.”
The Comments that we have not allowed to be published fell into one of the above categories. Please be mindful that while we may have strong emotions regarding what is posted by CT, we must also be respectful of our Leaders, especially so, for our Spiritual Leaders.
Our pursuit is Truth, Transparency and Good Godly Governance in our Church Administration. We have nothing against any of our Pastors or Church Leaders. We may not agree with the way things are done and so we put forth our views and suggestions to them but that does not mean we have any personal ill feelings for them as individuals.
As the AGM is approaching, let us blog respectfully. Try to keep to the issues at hand and stay away from personal remarks or personal judgment of another Brother or Sister.
May God Bless us all and have a good day ahead.
thank you. So basically from what i see, it's some work that needs to be done to regain trust. Yes, there was no misappropriation, but there is room for improvement.
i certainly hope to see this improvement come through.
item 1-- some sort of control as to what ministries are set up and how (this is important so as not to "LOOK" as though misappropriation is intended whether or not it is in reality)
item 2-- issues like the RM 41000 i believe were addressed by the deacons as being due to a SLOW RESPONSE to the need. it was identified as a weakness in distributing the funds and i believe action has been taken to ensure such laggish funds dispensement is not repeated, has it not?
and do we know whether the 1.1 million will remain in the church or will it go back to CIM?
item 3-- i think some things that are ethical in nature teether on the brink of OPINION. this item i believe is a very sensitive issue, simply because it is very largely individualistic in nature.
when we have different people with opposing opinions on this matter, what is our basis for decision making?
bro hong meng. i am hugely honoured that you have taken the time to respond to this.
Hello, Mr/Ms confused
Jangan 'ke si' or in cantonese 'pan chi se lou fu' la,
HM know what word is approriate to use but you are the one who 'summarised' the word eg : No misappropriation, hey bear in mind, if ever there is any 'misappropriation or not', we should all leave it to a more 'appropriate' representative to decide, shall we??
You should not try any harder to look for answer, ok?
If ever any church member or worshipper so willingly and happily allowing all these practices to go on.. I have to tell you, these people must be blind, dumb or even stupid....(pardon me for saying all these)
Wonder if it it possible for the TTG Group to make known the 7 proposed resolutions they submitted for inclusion for the AGM?
Why? The reasons is simple - there are some of us who would be interested to provide our feedback on the matters raised and perhaps suggest changes/improvement to proposed solutions (as found in the resolutions). And just in case anyone out there becomes defensive .... take a deep breathe ... don't you think that there may be others who could have better thoughts/proposals? No? ... you can't be really serious to think that the proposed 7 resolutions are the "absolute & best" proposals there is ...
And if you think like that, then it just demonstrates that the desire for dialogue/engagement to find the better way/middle ground for the sake of the unity of the Body is not your objective ...
Remember that whatever we do, we must do it for the sake of the Body of Jesus, for reconciliation and healing, to preserve the unity. God Bless!
To all Church Members reading and "D N",
We quote our previous posting on Information Update, Item 1, 2nd para:
"For the benefit of all concerned Calvarites, the details of the resolutions will be published in CT in a later posting together with the rationale or explanation for the resolutions."
CT have the intention to put out the 7 Resolutions submitted by TTG for inclusion in the Agenda for the coming AGM, for all to read, be aware and comment openly. However, we need time to collate the materials, so keep a look out for it.
Meanwhile, do pray along with us for God's wisdom and guidance to be upon all His people to hear Him correctly and to act according to His Will.
Our God is Good.
Dear CT ... sorry overlooked your previous posting ... much appreciated & thanks ... God Bless!
yup, i too do not agree with confused stating that there was no misappropriation of funds. just wondering, how did u come to that conclusion anywayz, confused?
I am agreeable with Irritated@April 21, 2009 7:32 PM. on confused. The mask of a pretender is transparent in the sight of God.
Beware! Discernment Needed, you are not too far from there.
May God reign over the acts of TTG for these are the sacrifices you have to face to live in Truth and Transparency knowing very well that in doing so you are exposed to men's manipulation. Let us be truthful to ourselves when we blog here.
To God be the glory.
I am very amazed that the owners of CT & BC are respectful, spiritual, and God-fearing people, who will not allow unwholesome, untruthful & malicious talk on their blog, whereas, IN CONTRAST, the owners of CK & CU are slanderous, disrespectful of the TTG and are downright bad-mouthing the TTG!!
To my horror, CK & CU writers would even publish untruthful allegations against TTG!! They take delight in falsehood just to achieve their so-called objectives, to the extent of lying & deception.
This shows the evil intents of their hearts, their real character.
My recollection when bad news broke is that when the initial discovery of funds being transferred over a period of time(yes over like 6 years) into PG personal ministry (CIM) most deacons, when contacted, expressed total surprise and ignorance over these fund transfers. Of course, today we are told differently that the transfer is with the endorsement of BODs. Here lies a vital point I am now most confused. It appears not all BODs(or APs) are fully aware from the inception of the first transfer of RM100K, or some of the privileged Deacons/APs know while others honestly do not know about the frequent transfers.
Then, how many deacons/APs are aware of the fact that the personal ministry of PG was registered with the NECF while PG was its Chairman. Registration as we all know today has been cancelled sometime in November 2008 Again, this is my recollection from the contents of previous texts disclosed by CT.
How many of the deacons are aware that the funds accummulated are primarily used to "fund" travelling for conferences amounting to almost RM500,000 (yes yes over a period of time not just in one year as some will try defend PG!!!)? I do notknow until the subsequent disclosure. Many other Calvarites don't.
Do I have to bring in the other issues of mistrust and bad faith?
Agree with "Confused" that it is a hugh job in PG's effort to regain "trust" while the jury is still out there......
I'm suprised and appalled that the alternate blog, CU is not only addressing the issues raised, but attacks are constantly being made on the TTG and those who speak up for truth. Come on, CU, if you are indeed for peace and unity, start by addressing the message and not shoot the messenger.
Hi TAM
Are you sure you are the right Tam?
Your english language dont really sound like you anyway!
HM was a successful corporate figure, so is he a God fearing man. His success and affordability for his children extravaganza has got nothing to do with calvary church financial 'mishandling'. He earned it and he deserved all.
You have not even seen his children and dont know them and there you are criticizing his children, be mindful that if you wish to eat 'nasi lemak' every day, then you can continue to maliciously accused his children, otherwise, I urge you, please lay your hands off!
To: bother HM
We as your friend, trusted you that you are a God fearing man with the right attitude, all these attacks are very malicious, because we believe, the one behind all these attacks must be very frustrated and the hot button had been pressed.
We support your cause fully without a shadow of doubt. May God be merciful to those who are 'malicious' with intent to damage your good reputation and good standing and your good effort.
PG's granddaughter is yet again coming back from US for a holiday..think she comes back about 3-4 times a year? looks like her family hv no problem funding her airfare tickets,so am just wondering why they had to apply for the 'staff benefit' to fund the granddaughter's initial airfare to US! the money could hv been used for a better use by the church!
On confused's comments,
Can't help reviewing the word "misappropriation" of funds. Correct me if i am wrong, i believe it means "missed appropriating" of funds i.e. did not apply usage of funds properly?
When designated offerings are collected and not chanelled, there must be accountability/responsibility, i.e. action to redress/address. Is there a missed appropriation by leaving the funds as it is in CIM?
Either return to sender or ask sender what to do with it, my conscience would tell me so.
Perhaps BOD's are all very busy and have overlooked, that is why I think, WHM is proposing SOPs so that our Church can be more efficient.
On ethics, well live a lifestyle that do not stumble others. Some of us cannot reconcile that Pastors should live lavishly, being the 1 per cent of the income bracket in Malaysia to win 99 per cent income bracket.....food for thought.
In addition to what I've mentioned earlier, the TTG have been transparent to one and all, as every one obviously know who they are - makes me wonder why CU & CK keep mentioning their names as though they have discovered their secret!
I guess you can say that TTG is an 'open secret'!
On the other hand, the owners of CK & CU, or the administrators, have not revealed their identities, in spite of many calls to them to do so! What are they hiding or keeping under cover? Their cloak of secrecy betray their real motives and intentions!
From this one can easily see who are those who are really speaking up for truth and transparency - TTG have been upfront and open and transparent and honest, from the very start.
You have my respect & my support, TTG! Keep up the good work - keep fighting the good fight of faith to restore justice, righteousness and godliness to the church! The good Lord have raised you up, TTG, for a time such as this!
I wrote this in CU and just in case they do not publish it there, I have posted it here too:-
Hi CU,
Can I know why you are writing down Joel’s name in your blog when he is not even a TTG core member and NOR has he ever been the creator or administrator of Calvary Today? All he did was to ask a question in EGM regarding Ps Phil and there you go throwing your accusations, making personal attacks and being totally unchristian in the way you write your articles.
I seriously doubt if you are really for peace and unity as your blog seems to be doing nothing more than to create more division in the church, make personal attacks on different individuals and promote hatred amongst the church members.
If you are indeed sincere in promoting peace and unity and if you are indeed genuine Christians who love the Lord, this is definitely not the way to do it.
Confused asked, “WHY is this still a problem, when all that's left is to decide with what to do with that 1.1 million?”
HM answered, "I thought the RM1.1 million had been “released” to the Missions Department! Or is the Missions Department now thinking what to do with the money? Please don’t tell me that they are thinking of how to channel the money back for SP’s use. Bearing in mind that the money was not returned willingly or voluntarily, this is a real possibility. The BOD may actually think that the money belongs to CIM and the Missions Department is just holding it in trust for CIM until it can be constituted legally."
Very sharp Bro HM. I believe the Holy Spirit's wisdom is upon you. This "confused" guy try to sneek in the idea or intention of SP to get back that RM1.1 million so subtlely so that when they announce it later we would not be caught surprised.
Must read every sentence and listen to every word carefully or else we are trapped. I believe that's what happened in BOD meetings. Suddenly pounce on the deacons an idea and catch them by surprise. Like got hear before yet not sure got hear before situation.
Aiyo SP still like this, very susah leh. There will be no end to this - he cannot let go of the RM1.1 million.
". . .Covetuousness, which is idolatory." (Colossians 3:5, KJV)
It's true. It's hard for PG1 & PG2 to let go of the money because there are already idols in their hearts....covetuousness is a form of idolatory, when the love of money takes first place in the human heart.
Too bad, so sad.
Sad to say that APs and BOD are the ones "confused" because they think that PG, PG2 and family are the victims and so "kasian" or pitiful folks in this saga.
They think that TTG by bringing out the truth of the matter are the ones causing harm and division in CC whereas the real cause is the coveteousness of PG and PG2.
The root of the matter is the love of money and power and the refusal to acknowledge the idols that have overtaken them.
Sad to say PG and PG2 started well but as the saga drags on and on...they are not going to finish well UNLESS they humble themselves and repent and seek forgiveness from God.
APs and BOD please advise the SP and SAP to do the right thing and please do not condone the wrongs or cover up for them anymore. This is not your battle so why stand so adamantly for the SP, you should instead stand up for truth, rigtheousness and justice. Now is the right time to be counted before God.
SP and SAP are accountable for all their speech, conduct and actions before GOD themselves, just as they preach to us and ask us to be accountable before God for all our speech, conduct and actions.
Now is the acceptable time of the Lord.. to do what is right before God.
I am not a member of CC but of another AOG church. Whats happening in CC is similar to most other large AOG churches. The main problem is lack of transparency in financial management. This is primarily due to large amount of money coming into the church. In most churches the mission account is shrouded in mystery over its finance. By right there should be only one account in any church and the missions accounts need to be highlighted clearly as part of receiveable and expenses.
Dear Ruby, you are absolutely correct.
Do you know that the income and expenditure for the Missions Dept are much higher than those of the main church accounts and yet the church leadership tried to say that since it is a departmental account, the details need not be presented in the church main account?
I have always looked for statements/articles which are written with the intention of finding common objectives, working towards the middle ground, reconciliation, healing and moving forward instead of highlighting differences, building walls, mistrust and further dividing the Body of Jesus.
No, it does not mean that we do not recognise differences or even weaknesses but for every one word we mention on these, there should be 100 words which stress the middle ground with the purpose of reconciliation and healing to maintain the unity of the Body.
Do I disagree with all Bro Hong Meng has written? No. But it does seem that the intention is not so much to seek for reconcilation and healing for the sake of the unity of the Body but rather the purpose appear to be to paint a very negative picture of the church leadership (Board of Directors & Pastorate) with the hope that people will be against it. Can this be construed as efforts to try find the middle ground and work towards reconciliation and healing? Unfortunately, my answer is no.
Once again ...
Dear Board (including the Pastorate) and the TTG Group ... please start talking to each other ... it really does not matter who initiates the discussion but please sit yourselves around a common table for the sake of the unity of the Body of Jesus!. God Bless!
Yes, just one basic biblical truth to cover all aspects of church financial management "STEWARDSHIP".
Many messages (applicable to personal, family and business) have come from the pulpit time and time again. If it is not pleasing to the Lord, don't do it. The leadership must practise what it is preaching all the past forty years. Be consistent as church financial manegement falls under the same biblical theme.
As mentioned above many times over, do we need to splash the funds whether from tithes, faith mission OR BUILDING project on luxury brands. Kingdom principle is simple to observe follow and applied. Be obedient hence be careful how the funds collected are being used. Is it pleasing to our Lord Jesus? Consider these aspects:-
(1) for the airfares at some leadership's whim and fancy for a selected and privileged few recently termed as "staff benefits"
(2) for looking vain okay call it "fitness" to walk/climb Mount Kinabalu.
(3) for big "angpows" to visiting pastors as love offerings
(4) for hiring top-notch legal and accounting professionals to give opinion/reports at a unnecessary EGM ended with a promise of a "WAY FORWARD" Okay, someone will soon remind me about it, legal expert's fees given "gratis" in that instance but the forensic investigation is positively not.
(5)CERTAINLY not for business class travelling to go conferencing and seminars and bringing the son along to do some audio/visual programming (throwing away about RM500,000 in total over the past few years)
(6) TO PAY bank interest if you draw on the bank overdraft when clearly CC cannot afford a super-size budget CCC.Remember the initial buget was about RM50 million (what's the latest revision ask PG, BODs or perhaps JG). Remember Calvaryland is now a hugh complex to cater for half-dozen residents. The estimated income wisely invested on the total expenditure on Calvaryland could pay for the upkeep of the six persons inside suitable nursing homes in the Klang Valley because you have to take into the computation the all and sundry expenses like wages for the security and helpers. Interested members have asked for the accounts to be presented and still waiting
(7)Morally not correct to pay some privlieged pastors larger stipends just to ensure they stay beholden to PG and his family.
I trust we do not get distracted and overlook the bigger picture. The microphone system is just the tip of the iceberg. The vital point is this - can the one making the final decision ask a basic question "Is this action/decision pleasing to the Lord?" If yes, he/she has passed the test of good stewardship in a church.
Before any misappropriately guided CK/CU blogger react irrationally, please check the Bible, brothers and sisters the Bible tells us clearly to rebuke and help our brothers and sisters wake up if you wish Calvary Church to be the true fountainhead church. The leadership must lead by unblemished character and pleasing examples.
Bro blog adminstrator, post this message on the other response too, thank you and have a blessed day.
This is exactly why I'm asking bloggers/readers to check your context before forming opinions.
What you see is just 1 page of the spending. Even CU has a new post trying to calculate % of this cost which is not a proper representation of the spending for that year and is not right to form that conclusion.
We don't even know what brand the mics are, the shure thing was what some other blogger called it but we don't know for sure.
I posted this on CU today and just in case delete it, I want CT readers to be able to read this.
TO CU:
In reference to addendum #2, I understand the need to defend oneself but do you really need to resort to childish manipulation of names? Quote: "not only he win slow, maybe he thinks slow as well?"
Come on, CU. You want to bring the truth to people. Don't do it this way.
Your immaturity disappoints me. Church leaders are writing this blog. How am I supposed to stay strong in my faith when even CU resorts to insulting names? Only little children say such things.
I was taught to respect my elders. Maybe you should learn to respect your fellow brother in Christ too no matter how mislead you think he is. Do you really have to stoop to such levels even if the other side is using them?
Feel free to delete my comments again if you deem them inappropriate.
Dear Brothers and Sisters in Christ,
We would like to give a gentle reminder again:
"The primary purpose is to keep members and regular worshippers of Calvary Church, KL updated on issues and concerns in our church today and to provide a platform for them to express their views, comments and concerns and provide feedback on matters raised,..."
CT is not here to have disagreements with fellow Church Members or Brothers and Sisters in Christ. CT is the avenue used to assist in TTG – the pursuit of Truth, Transparency and Good Godly Governance in our Church Administration.
We have put forth what different individuals have done, correspondences between members and leaders, evidences that different church members have managed to obtain through their investigations and contribution by others as and when they are offered to us. To this cause, CT must give God all the glory, for He has caused different individuals to rise to the specific occassion to contribute differently to develop CT to what it is today.
We try to be as objective as possible but being a tool managed by human beings, we must acknowledge that there may be short comings and failures in your sight.
Having said that, we wish to say that while we respect the decision of many of you who read the alternate blogs to get another point of view on matters raised by us, we would request that you do not post your reply to them over here in CT. The reason is because most of us here do not read what they publish in their blogs. We do not have any inclination as to what you are talking about sometimes, when you put your reply to them here unless you give us a preamble. However, CT does not encourage that because that would mean inviting a long discourse on matters that does not address issues pertaining to TTG.
We appreciate Discernment Needed and we quote his/her latest comment, “Dear Board (including the Pastorate) and the TTG Group ... please start talking to each other ... it really does not matter who initiates the discussion but please sit yourselves around a common table for the sake of the unity of the Body of Jesus!. God Bless!”
CT believes this is the right way forward, to have a discussion between BOD, Pastors and TTG Group. These groups of people are identifiable and are known to most Church Members by now. Any discussion with unknown individuals is a distraction to the cause.
However, we must qualify this statement by saying that we do understand and would advise that for the time being, you do not blog in your real names when putting forth your Comments, unless you have already done so before. The reason is quite obvious and that’s why we do not press “DN” to come out in the open.
We do have Church Members who have written to CT, identifying themselves and giving their personal suggestions to us. To these individuals we put on record that we appreciate your input very much and we say “Terima Kasih”.
Finally, addressing KKB’s request for Chinese Translation, we regret to inform that the person who contributed that piece of work, is tied up with some projects and will be unable to help further.
Our God is to be Praised for His Mercies are new everyday.
Dear Brothers and Sisters In Christ,
This is further to Calvary Youngster's Comment posted @ April 23, 2009 11:12 AM
The comment below in CU was not put in by the Bro Winslow that we know. He was alerted by a reader and therefore informed us immediately, since we have published Calvary Youngster's comment here.
*******************************
Winslow said:
Dear Calvary youngster,
Remember, this is a public blog, accessible by anyone and everyone from everywhere where there's free internet access. Quoted by Winslow.
April 23, 2009 11:02 AM (in CU)
*************************
Hi Calvarites
Time has come to prayerfully consider change of leadership to bring CC to another level of growth.
PG, PG2, no. of APs and present BOD may not be the leaders who can bring us forward.
"It's not that we love Julius Caesar less but we love Rome more."
Discernment Needed.
CT may agree with you but I don't.
You say that Bro HM is not for reconciliation. His article to you is not moving to the middle ground. Friend, we need a change here and there cannot be a middle ground. I remember someone said earlier 50/50 is not change or something like that. You "cross me out, I cross you out" meeting will never work out. Someone will end up battered and in this case we know who they will be. Most likely Bro HM will be removed from Church Membership becoz of "unscriptural conduct" ie. disobeying God's appointed church leaders and pastors.
Since you are so for the meeting and I believe many have asked you to initiate or organise that meeting, have you done so? Have you tried? Why talk so much but still not doing anything? Go to SP & BOD and tell him you represent TTG and make that appointment. From what I understand, TTG got no membership roll. Any one can contribute and many has contributed as what CT just said. So how do you fit in here? Do something yourself Discernment Needed.
To Discerment needed
You keep harping on "middle ground" all over the blog. please refer to TUN Daniel who already gave you an enlightened answer to that.
In the meantime, since you might have missed my reply to you re AWAKEN AGAIN said...
A reply to Discernment Needed: April 17, 2009 10:49 PM. I re post it here. and expect you assist to find the truth of the "CIM & Missions relationship"
(not conveniently ignored, as it suits you)
Your rationale and acceptance of the ‘Explanation’ given by those involved regarding the transfer of the Missions to CIM, does seem persuasive.
Why do I say that?
The fact is, many like you and me are not aware of what really transpired behind the scene and what was on their minds or in their hearts.
Besides, any trusting member would never ever be able to even guess in his/her wildest imagination what those people did, they deemed was good in their own eyes.
HOWEVER, please verify with Ps Peter the former Missions Director, if he had said : "Missions department used to have a ‘FOREIGN MISSIONS’ Ministry, but since CIM was formed, its function/role has been ‘transferred to /undertaken by CIM, as the work and duties under the former had been carried out by Sr, Pastor, and they are the same."
If you had been long enough in the church, ( Which I believe you are) you would know that the Foreign Missions Ministry, was a Key part of Calvary’s missions for ( genuine) evangelistic work. (which the men and other leaders including associate pastors were actively involved)
So, tell me what benefit was there that this well established Foreign Ministry was dissolved or CONVENIENTLY ‘given over’ to CIM? Surely, it does not take a smart-Alec to realize there is a world of difference between attending Conferences by the President and SAP his wife & Vice President of CIM (a Personal Ministry), and actual Foreign Missions work of Calvary church!
Similarly, Why would CARE which was originally managed by the Missions Dept. belonging to Calvary Church be dissolved and went to CARED of CIM?
Q. Why were such an important move/decisions not brought before the members for deliberation, but done rather HUSH -HUSH?
Please, remember, SP openly/publicly declared at the AGM, that “CIM is MY PERSONAL MINISTRY and hence any Questions related/concerning CIM should NOT be asked in the Church, but be directed to me”
SP has, by this statement declared a clear SEPARATION of CIM from the Church.
YET, in reality CIM continue to pass-off as an Extended Ministry of CC. ( CIM’s official brochure, under the heading ‘Pictorial Testimonies’ showed events/ activities/ Missions undertaken by Calvary Church )
YET, the Missions Director could not draw the line between what is Personal and what is Church’s Ministry.
YET, the BOD defended at a high cost (using the Church Funds for Professional Services)and to this day, insisted there was no wrong even when CIM finally returned the money to Missions.
YET, Discernment you asked:"What is the intention (or in other terms, the objective, purpose, “the end result”) of the action taken?" and Conclude that "there was no bad/evil intention" (?)
To me it's clear SP has used CIM & CC as his stage to propel himself for self glory & self interest. I can only deduced from all that one could see through his actions, talk, and behavior and testimonies of others within & without, of his sly ways, that the 'Intent' is not so difficult to discern. Nevertheless, I have to agree with you that "each of you have to decide on this" and may I add, to base on the facts and the events that have unfolded over this past 13 months, if not decades ago.
April 19, 2009 5:47 PM
Dear Julius Caesor or Rome,
I tend to agree with your view that the time has come to prayerfully consider change of leadership. We can consider making SP as Pastor Emeritus and replace some of the APs. We should release SP into greater and worldwide ministry if that is God's leading. He can do it through CIM and I think CC would have no problem supporting SP's ministry. We must not forget his past 40 years of ministry to CC and never forget to love and appreciate him. Except for the few energetic and passionate APs, the rest of the APs should be removed/retired. By their fruits and the sermons they preached you will know they are, lack scriptural depth, shallow and lack the anointing of God. Recent discovery of questionable financial procedures and management of church matters leave very much to be desired and is not tenable to hold positions of spiritual leadership.The BODs should also be replaced by spirit-filled, fearless, committed and professionals who has the heart of God and love for the church.
All you need is to see what God is doing in other churches and assembly who are not even AOGs.A number of the churches are growing by leaps and bounds and you can "see and feel" the anointing of God in their services. The missionary zeal, signs and wonders,fire and passion for God is evident. CC had relegated to a form but denying the power of GOd. We have evolved into our brand of Dignified Christianity instead of Dynamic Christianity where signs and wonders are the norm.We have let mediocrity crept in our preaching, teaching and worship leading. Let us be reminded in 2 Chronicles 7:14
and pray for revival. May God have mercy upon all of us.
I would like to ask: how do you define "spirit-filled, fearless, committed and professionals who has the heart of God and love for the church"
By what criteria or behavior should this manifest itself? Whom is it modeled after?
Fearless - how can we recognize this behaviour? Do you have any role model in mind that is fearless? What would be language or words that a fearless man uses? How can I identify the fearless man in Calvary Church?
Committed - how is this manifested? Where can we find them?
Professionals - how is this manifested? How should professionals behave in church and outside of church?
How is love for the Church manifested? Heart of God - how is this manifested? Is there anyone in Calvary Church today that is a role model for us the congregation to inspect?
"Except for the few energetic and passionate APs, the rest of the APs should be removed/retired." - well, I suggest you do not bite the hand that feeds.
Hi Anonymous10:07pm
Please dont confuse the issue - what we are asking for is very simple:
We want our senior pastor, associate pastors and Board of deacons to be leaders who did not breach the trust that the congregation has put on them. Just as simple as that!
Do what they preached and dont make a mockery of God's sanctuary.
anonymous 10.07pm, just go to other churches...u'll see a lot of good pastors who possess the criterias mentioned. don't stay in your little box.
Hey Anonymous 10.07pm,
Very easy to spot the new leaders we need. Just look for the opposite of our deacons and pastors now.
Also, I think Anon 10.07pm has not been exposed to leaders in other churches before. coz if he has, he would know that there are many God-fearing pastors in other churches who have these attributes. Anon 10.07pm needs to go out and see more of other churches.otherwise, his idea of what a leader should be like is very limited and based on how our PG and the BOD has been acting, Anon will have no idea what a good leader should be like.
To cannot understand,
PG's granddaughter only comes back twice a year and not 3 or 4 times as you have mentioned. Please clarify your facts before stating them. TQ.
Dear simple housewife who posted a comment at 10.01AM this morning.
You must be new in this blog. I know I cannot claim to be the only simple housewife around but this name has been used by me since the beginning of this saga in our church especially in this blog. So the next time you use this name, please add No 2 to it. This is to avoid confusion between us.
Just to make a little clarification here since I’m on this topic. I have been told that there is another Karen who has commented elsewhere before. Well, that’s not me, in the other blogs. I only put my comments here in CT and have no intention of doing so any where else. Before anyone attack me, I am fully aware that I’m not the only Karen in town and certainly not the only simple housewife around.
Sorry state of affairs, people cannot discern who is a God fearing leader anymore. Still justifying what CC pastors and BOD have done at this hour when so many wrongs and blunders have been exposed.
Black is affirmed and passed off as grey and after a little while when matters are calmer.. the grey is affirmed and passed off as white!
This is the value system of CC pastors and BOD!
What has happened to all the preaching and teaching of kingdom principles? Just words of knowledge to show they are still following the Bible but with no intention for what is preached and taught to congregation to be applied and adhered to by preachers and teachers themselves.
Character and Conduct, hearing of the Word and Doing/Obeying the Word is what is required of God's servants and leaders!
Dear Meaningless,
ohh..so coming back twice a year is justifiable then for her to get church to pay for her airfare? some students can't even afford to come back once a year!
I quite agree with Julius Caesar Or Rome....
It's not that we love PG1, PG2, APs, & BOD less but we love Calvary Church more!
We have to vote rightly to save the church from the present covetuous, lying, controlling, ungodly leaders that they have become!
It's like in the times of the Book of Judges when everybody, including the priests, did what was right in their own eyes, and the leaders have lost their fear of GOD!
I have been following this blog for quite sometime and have been to some meetings organized by TTG to observe on what’s going on.
I am very comfortable with action taken by core TTG (of course with exception of some really aggressive members).
What I heard from the other side as well as in:- Christian way of management are different from secular world and you cannot compare. I totally agree with that too and let me share why, Who’s and Which way of management should we follow?
JESUS of course! HE as our CEO but this CEO manages people. HE focuses on saving souls. JESUS NEVER MANAGE MONEY NOR OWN ANY. HE asked his disciples to leave their revenue generating job and follow HIM. They OBEY and we are ‘born’ from there and here we are the followers.
As such, Church Leaders, Pastors, Preacher, etc, etc, should focus on managing people. Let the expert do their job. Pastor – preach. Finance/Accounts – leave it to professionals. Hire people who are good at these. Everyone is responsible and accountable for their own function/action. Human are Human – we are weaklings prone to temptations.
CC is no longer a small church. She’s HUGE. We need expertise to manage each area. We need SOPs to guide and refer for consistency. We need people who can be responsible and accountable to every function and action. INTEGRITY, ACCOUNTABILITY, RESPONSIBILITY, Etiquette, Respect, etc, etc are all required and must as to manage money collected at various point.
This is not as simple as my money, I give to my mother and she can do what she wants which I care less. But these are PEOPLES moneys (plural which multiplies) we are talking about and the same concept cannot apply because every cent is accounted for. What was mentioned are only the main principal amounts but no one every talk about the interest earn as well? Where are they?
I would like to stress on BOD as well. They are NOT nominated me but were pre-nominated and by force select them under duress during AGM or EGM. I hope the topic of, ‘BODs were chosen by you’ mentioned again. I hope this saga will end soon.
Anonymous at 10.07pm asked several questions and did not get any replies. Instead received :
1. belittling - "don't stay in your little box" - based on what assumptions do you make this statement?
2. vague replies "just look for the opposite of our pastors and deacons" - which is what? my questions are very specifc, so please answer them - I would like to know what CT/TTG's attributes of good deacons are.
3. made to look as if I do not have analytical capabilities -"don't confuse the issue" - I am not confused, I am just following up on Silent Majority 101 who is supportive of CT's cause. I am really curious to know, because a good deacons's attributes according to CT has not been defined. I see a lot of statements of pastors or deacon's wrongdoings, but none stating what exactly should be the attributes of a good deacon and what should be the frutis.
4.reframing my questions but does not answer the questions - "his idea of what a leader should be like is very limited and based on how our PG and the BOD has been acting, Anon will have no idea what a good leader should be like" Again, this is insulting my intelligence but not giving me constructive answers and attempting to throw out the validity of my question. So if "just have a look outside lar" know what good spiritual leaders should be, please tell me, and How do you know I don't visit other churches either in KL/PJ or overseas? The reason why I am posted the comment in CT is because it seemed like some of you know what good spiritual leaders behaviour/attitude/actions should be.
But looks like I am wrong - because no one in CT can give me a solid answer backed by evidence.
Dear Anonymous 11.55pm and 10.07pm,
The answers to your questions on pastors and deacons' attributes are found in 1 Timothy 3. Almost the entire chapter is devoted to the attributes, traits and character of overseers and deacons.
Of course, there are many other portions of the bible you can also quote from.
The key and most important question you need to ask yourself is " Do I see the reflection of Jesus in the lives of our pastors and deacons, the way they carry themselves, the way they treat fellow brother and sisters, their actions, deeds and conduct, the way they handle the money their sheep have put in their hands.
Do I see Jesus in them?"
To Anon @ 11.55 PM
We are all in Christ as a body together. Better refrain from hard method to "grill" another Calvarite on the issue of pastoral character and attributes. Be still be calm it is in front of our eyes to see.......
If I may use some basic everyday life comparisons, like what's a good government and what's a good home. A failed state cannot be credited to be run by good people in the government despite the sovereign nation having been blessed with abundant resources. Yes, there are other caveats in order to bring out the good people to run the country. One of the basic reasons of poorly managed sovereign nations is that genuine people who speak up are incarcerated(gagged) and many fearful of draconian laws just leave. Yes, no need to sack to diminish the opposition. More good and qualified people just leave. Consequently, leaving behind "indifferent" people and you have the recipe for bad government.
Next what's a good family and a dysfunctional family. You know the answer whatever family background you might come from.
Finally, what are the basic characteristics of church leadership in order to earn a respected place in the community.
One blogger has contributed God-fearing pastors and deacons as solution. True, however, all the worshippers must be God-fearing as well and embedded in biblical truth with the Word of God.
Another blogger highlighted the spiritual doctrine of sound and good stewardship of funds received.
Many others have touched on lack of love and joy from scolding sermons and prayers-sessions. Must quickly add that this kind of spiritual "immaturity" is confined to some and that's bad enough.
Our claim to "fame" today in Malaysia points to a lack of these basic and fundamental Kingdom principles and the rot is working deeper if we choose to delay or ignore events unfolding by simply telling Calvarites who are outspoken to leave or worst threathening action to rightful membership and untroubled worshipping while saying comforting stories to others who enquire about "rumour" that everything is okay.
Bad leadership has led to acrimonious and spiritually unhealthy and choking atmosphere.
Let's not pretend that all the revelations, testimonies and at times somewhat over the top comments have totally been erased from this CT blog. If we care to review carefully, even a child can understand see and hear the problem. All said, please go back to the Word of God, find the characters and attributes in His Book.
Let's walk the talk and get back to walking the straight and narrow to heal the hurt pain drift....
I was reading the Book of Joshua this morning & was horrified to see an identical picture of PG1 & PG2 in this 'man who did the accursed thing' that caused Israel to be defeated in battle.
"When I saw among the spoils a goodly Babylonish garment (Chanel dress?), and two hundred shekels of silver, and a wedge of gold of fifty shekels weight (Missions money?), THEN I COVETED THEM, and took them; and behold, they are hid in the earth in the midst of my tent (CIM?), and the silver under it." (Joshua 7:21, KJV)
The gold, silver, brass, of Jericho had been consecrated to the Lord - they belonged to God, & Joshua had already told them so (Joshua 6:19).
Dear SM,
Yes, I know what the Bible says are attributes of pastors and deacons and yes, I just read 1 Tim 3. Thank you for your kind response.
Your questions "do I see Jesus in them?" is a good question and each one of us should ask ourselves "do I see Jesus in me?"
400+ salvations during Easter - this can only happen by the moving of the Holy Spirit, and if the chosen vessel of the Holy Spirit (pastors/deacons) has been tainted with corruption and fraud, then how can the Holy Spirit function? God cannot accept unholiness. Baptismal candidates testimony and their action in taking the step of obedience in Calvary Church - is another evidence - if the vessel fo the Holy Spirit (pastors/deacons) is tainted, then how did the Word of God touch them in Calvary Church?
You see, this is what I mean by evidence, and TTG/CT have failed to cite evidence of their harvesting in Godly ways. Tell me the evidence, and I want to match that with what I read in the Bible.
Nobody's lifestyle is beyond God's reproach and correction, and our lives as a believer is a journey, each of us answerable to God and God alone. Man does not need to help God make decisions, not even if you have a PhD. Starting a letter with "I am Associate Professor" and having learned people (PhD, medical doctors, Directors, GMs, CFOs, etc) does not impress me or add credibility to your cause.
CT/TTG's cause is unfounded unless you demonstrate what you have harvested for God's Kingdom.
To "please search in His Word":
Why do you say I am "grilling another Calvarite?" I am only asking for clarity on Silent Majority 101's statement. But others jumped in.
I come from a dysfunctional family and yet God saved me. It does not make me unethical or any less deserving of God's love.
Forget the rhetoric. Evidence of CT/TTG harvesting in God's Kingdom please.
Quoting Anon, "400+ salvations during Easter - this can only happen by the moving of the Holy Spirit, and if the chosen vessel of the Holy Spirit (pastors/deacons) has been tainted with corruption and fraud, then how can the Holy Spirit function? God cannot accept unholiness. Baptismal candidates testimony and their action in taking the step of obedience in Calvary Church - is another evidence - if the vessel fo the Holy Spirit (pastors/deacons) is tainted, then how did the Word of God touch them in Calvary Church?"
THE BIBLE ANSWER TO THIS .....
Matthew 7:15-23 (NKJV)
“Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves..... "
“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’
THIS IS THE MESSAGE TRANSLATION.
"Be wary of false preachers who smile a lot, dripping with practiced sincerity. Chances are they are out to rip you off some way or other. Don't be impressed with charisma; look for character. Who preachers are is the main thing, not what they say. A genuine leader will never exploit your emotions or your pocketbook. These diseased trees with their bad apples are going to be chopped down and burned.
"Knowing the correct password—saying 'Master, Master,' for instance— isn't going to get you anywhere with me. What is required is serious obedience—doing what my Father wills. I can see it now—at the Final Judgment thousands strutting up to me and saying, 'Master, we preached the Message, we bashed the demons, our God-sponsored projects had everyone talking.' And do you know what I am going to say? 'You missed the boat. All you did was use me to make yourselves important. You don't impress me one bit. You're out of here.'
Hello Anon, April 25, 2009 10:29 AM
TTG, Professors, Doctors, Directors, GMs, CFOs are not trying to impress you. They want to impress God. All of us want to impress God. We don't want to end up on Judgement Day and standing before God and hear Him say to us, " You don't impress me one bit. You're out of here."
Quoting Anon again, "TTG/CT have failed to cite evidence of their harvesting in Godly ways. Tell me the evidence, and I want to match that with what I read in the Bible....... CT/TTG's cause is unfounded unless you demonstrate what you have harvested for God's Kingdom."
THE BIBLE ANSWER TO THIS ......
1 Corinthians 1:26-31 (NKJV)
Glory Only in the Lord
For you see your calling, brethren, that not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called. But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty; and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are, that no flesh should glory in His presence. But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God—and righteousness and sanctification and redemption— that, as it is written, “He who glories, let him glory in the LORD.”
THE MESSAGE TRANSLATION .......
"Take a good look, friends, at who you were when you got called into this life. I don't see many of "the brightest and the best" among you, not many influential, not many from high-society families. Isn't it obvious that God deliberately chose men and women that the culture overlooks and exploits and abuses, chose these "nobodies" to expose the hollow pretensions of the "somebodies"? That makes it quite clear that none of you can get by with blowing your own horn before God. Everything that we have—right thinking and right living, a clean slate and a fresh start—comes from God by way of Jesus Christ. That's why we have the saying, "If you're going to blow a horn, blow a trumpet for God." "
Again TTG, Professors, Doctors, Directors, GMs & CFOs do not need to boast of all the things that they have done to the world. We work and serve God so that we may receive our rewards from God. Our motivation for serving God is this,
and certainly not to get credibility from you.
Jeremiah 9:23-24 (NIV)
"This is what the Lord says:
'Let not the wise man boast of his wosdom or the strong man boast of his strength or the rich man boast of his riches, but let him who boasts boast about this:
that he understands and knows me, that I am the Lord, who exercises kindness, justice and righteousness on earth, for in these I delight,' declares the Lord."
THIS IS THE MESSAGE TRANSLATION ...
God's Message:
"Don't let the wise brag of their wisdom. Don't let heroes brag of their exploits. Don't let the rich brag of their riches.
If you brag, brag of this and this only: That you understand and know me. I'm God, and I act in loyal love. I do what's right and set things right and fair, and delight in those who do the same things.
These are my trademarks."
God's Decree.
Hello Anon @ april 25 10.29 am
Oh dear, my basic maths must be terribly poor too, lah.
If we got 400+ during Easter plus perhaps another similar number during the Christmas harvest, then CC ought to gain 800+ per year on average.
Over a period of 37 years(under PG's watch), CC ought to have an approx aggregate congregation of close to 31,080 members/worshippers today ie say 420 + 420 x 37 years. (Anon has declared 400+ which has to be accepted as correct)
Currently the membership is just about what 3,000. Let another Calvarite help me with an updated figure. Just in membership count the leadership repeatedly tend to broadcast inflated numbers in the press of 10,000 worshippers sometime last year (read the Star papers)
It is not pleasing to our Lord to continue telling half-truthful things please.
I am not doubting the 400+ who came to the alter calls over the several evenings and Sunday morning. But importantly do focus on retention ratio and persistency ratio as one usually uses such terminology in the business place.
Either CC leadership or you anon is pretty poor in simple arithmetics.
I think the economy is now is recession but we can expect to see inflation (no pun intended)
Anon. @ 10:29 am.
You are basing your argument on an assumption.
Remember that although King Saul had sinned against the Lord, & the prophet Samuel had already pronounced his judgment on him, Saul still remained as king, the anointed whom David refused to kill when he had the chance to, when he was in the cave.
God had his own timing to remove a wicked king & his 3 sons.
In the meantime, although PG1 had done wickedly but refused to repent, God is still faithful to His WORD - God can also use unclean vessels to do his bidding, e.g. Cyrus was a Persian king who worshipped 3 gods, yet the True God used him to bring his people back from captivity to rebuild the walls of Jerusalem.
When the Word of God was preached by PG1, although he was an unclean vessel, yet GOd was faithful to HIs Word & in HIs compassion for the lost, His Word & His Spirit still moved to save those who are seeking HIM.
This 400+ salvations had nothing to do with the quality of PG1's life! It is by God's grace that those people were saved.
Don't give the glory to a man!! You are doing God an injustice!
To Anon @ 10.44 am
Give me rhetorics anytime because I know rhetorics is prefered over gibberish of half-truths.
At least, I am able to understand rhetorical and inspired statements over gibberish talk
Another consideration to this issue is, PG1 & PG2 have so many years of experience in preaching the Word, they can do it at the drop of a hat! Their good preaching may not mean their lives are right with God, though! There are those servants of God to whom the Lord will say, "I know you not!"
"Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
And then will I profess untothem, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." (Matt. 7:22-23)
Anon 10.29 am. have obviously mistaken 'anointing for approval'!
The anointing happens when God is faithful to His Word, so that His Word will bear fruit.
Approval is when the Lord will say, "Well done, thou good and faithful servant" AND NOT "I know you not!"
Actually, the figure of 400+ salvations during our Easter presentations is highly disputable.
I am one of the follow-up altar workers asigned to follow-up on those who responded at the altar.
Many of the ppl I called told me that they didn't go to the front to receive Jesus as Saviour. Some went out of curiosity, some went out cos their friends ask them to go out, some accompany their friends who did go out for salvation
The problem arise coz the altar workers in their zeal 'simply' ticked the "salvation" box in the response forms.
Of course, there were some real salvations. For that, we give glory to God.
The first night, PG didn't preach but yet there were some salvations. So it is God who saves, not man.
Dear Altar Worker
Are you blaming SP that some of these altar-workers "simply" tick "salvation"? I do believe, no matter how light or un-serious it look, that step they took to walk down the aisle will impact much in the spiritual realm.
To this, we must give God the glory. Not doubt the work He has began in these new souls!!
Do watch the show Leap of Faith by Steve Martin and it should answer to all the annoynings! Happy watching and should be able to understand when time come God will take over!
Further to what already had been said in reply to Anon.10.29am, let me add my two cents worth.
This scripture astounds me, because it refers to those Christians who were obviously ANOINTED to do ministry! How else could they cast out demons, etc. unless they were anointed?
"Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
And then will I profess untothem, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." (Matt. 7:22-23)
AND YET, sadly enough, the Lord told them to 'depart' from Him!
This speaks to me of judgment that is coming on everyone who serves God for their own promotion, their own interests, their own fame, their own purposes, using their positions for their own gain & doing ministry out of their own will, and not in the will of the Father!
FAMILY FOCUS:
With busyness of the AGM coming round the corner, members of the families are bound to get neglected.
In Mar 12:29-31 Jesus states the most important commandment: “Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.”
The second most important commandment is this: 'Love your neighbour as you love yourself.'
It should be crystal clear that time spent loving God takes the top priority. The next is time spent loving your neighbour as yourself. Guess who is your nearest neighbour? It is your family members your wife first and children second.
Other neighbours then come into consideration: parents, siblings, inner circle of friends, the outer circle of friends and others in that order like in Act.1:8 - and you will be witnesses for me in Jerusalem, in all of Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth", beginning close and moving out.
Please be reminded that, 'Love your neighbour as you love yourself' implies that you do not love your neighbour to the exclusion of yourself. Take care or yourself.
We work to support our family and to contribute to God. So work takes third place in priority. The 4th and last place is church service. This position may surprise many. Don’t forget, relationship to God is top priority. Church service comes below work, because the work is our means of supporting the family and the church and the workplace is also our personal mission field and our place for witnessing.
So in summary, don’t neglect your personal devotional time with God, husbands be mindful of your wives and wives, the children still need you.
Salvation belongs to God alone. The word of God says "No one can come to Me (Jesus) unless the Father who sent Me (Jesus) draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day. So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God, who makes things grow (1 Cor 3:7) God alone is to be praised, God alone is to be glorified, and God alone is to be lifted high for all the world to see. We are all here for one purpose, that is, to make Jesus known, and lift up the Name of Jesus, and when He is lifted high above the earth, He said, He will draw all men unto Himself.
Anon 10.29am
"Go ye therefore, and teach (disciple) all nations." Matthew 28:19
Jesus Christ did not say - Go and save souls
(the salvation of souls is the SUPERNATURAL WORK OF GOD),
but - "Go and teach," i.e., disciple, "all nations,"
and you cannot make disciples unless you are a disciple yourself.
When the disciples came back from their first mission they were filled with joy because the devils were subject to them, and Jesus said
- Don't rejoice in successful service;
the great secret of joy is that you are RIGHTLY related to Me.
The great essential of the pastor is that he remains TRUE to the call of God, and realizes that his one purpose is to disciple men and women to Jesus.
There is a passion for souls that does not spring from God, but from the desire to make converts to our point of view.
The challenge to the pastor is his own personal relationship to Jesus Christ.
All power is given unto Me,
All power belongs to Him
All honour belongs to Him
Not by might, not by power
but is by MY SPIRIT, thus saith the LORD
Dear Family, this is an excellent sharing. I would encourage all Christians to read it. But I think we left out the students, housewives, etc. You mentioned that the third priority is work. But this could mean studying, work in the house, etc. Dont let the young people think that they have to be involved in alot of activities inorder to be considered as spiritual. They have to give priority to their studies. Thank you.
To Anon 25 April @ 10.29 am
It is good that you know the Bible. Praise the Lord to hear your testimony you have been saved. However, you choose to ignore very obvious character flaws of Pastor G and some others.
Bible teaches humility not arrogance. Oh yes, love thy neighbour as thyself. Do you find these characteristics in evidence in CC
Many outrageous stories of Pastor G's arrogance of putting his feet on the table (aka legs on the table(LOTT)) and swivelling his chair with back to intimidate. Understand from the staff PG is working hard to improve nowadays.
Good attributes and sound qualities of overseers etc are found inside the Bible.
Need we have to search further. In a nutshell:-
Praise the Lord not the man
Magnify the Lord not man
Glorify the Lord not man
Sanctify the Lord not man
There's no room for mediocrity and compromise if we wish to strive for good leadership. I say that overflowing praises for some sanctimonious pastors and deacons must end now.
To AltarWorker Intercessor.
If the hat fits, wear it. Nobody blame SP for anything. I am just telling you what the people I called told me.
If the altar workers simply tick, SP won't blame himself. Have you ever heard him blame himself for anything? So you don't have to defend him. Better think of how to protect the APs becoz they are going to get LOTT from SP soon for not training the AWs well.
Dear Excellent sharing...APRIL 26 2009 11.53 PM
Yes, absolutely correct. The children’s equivalent of work is studies and house chores. If they do well here they become a good witness for the Lord. For housewives their work is caring for the home. If they are innovative enough they can do a lot for the Lord here. May God annoint all housewives with wisdom and gifts of the Holy Spirit.
In summary, the priority order for children should be:
1.God
2.Family
3.Studies/ house chores (Work)
4.Church service
You want a strong Calvary Church?? Then strengthen your family !
There is a saying, win the father to Christ and you win the whole family. This is supported by Act 16:31 And they said, believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved, and your household.
Eph 5:23 The husband is the head of his wife.... Eph 6:1 Children, obey your parents....
The above two verses places the husband as the Head of the family, the wife as the Deputy Head and the children as the obedient followers. Or you could picture the family to consist of a pastor, a pastor’s wife and the disciples i.e in other words a mini church. Let all the fathers build strong mini churches. Bring all the mini churches together and you have a strong Calvary Church.
Sociologists defines the family unit as the smallest functional unit of a nation. God sees the family as the most fundamental unit of His church. He gave this instruction to all heads of families - Deu 6:6, 7 And these words which I command you this day shall be in your heart. And you shall carefully teach them to your sons, and shall talk of them when you sit in your house and when you walk by the way, and when you lie down, and when you rise up.
What God is really saying in Deu 6:6,7 that as fathers and mothers, we should be teaching our children all about Him during the circumstances of our everyday living. This , of course, means we teach them about God by our very lives – through our character and attitudes.
WE NEED TO WALK THE TALK.
Good habits are better caught than taught!
DATUK preferred over Reverend.
When a servant of God is ashamed of being recognised by the honorific "Reverend" before his name and instead, proudly said the worldly title of 'DATUK' has much value, because it can *"open doors" for him to Who's Who, surely, his sight and heart is of the world.
When PG received his Datukship, that was exactly what he did, ‘replaced’ Rev. with Datuk before his name! Those members who noticed it, thought it was a ‘mistake’, but sadly, and to their utter disbelief, it was in fact a conscious and considered decision of PG.
It was not until, a concerned member told him that if indeed he would dropped Reverend, then he ought not to ordain any future pastors, since he was a Superintendent of AOG then. Perhaps it was because of this fact which was pointed out to him that he had no choice, but eventually, and presumably most reluctantly, put back Rev.!
This very *quote and ACTION of PG, revealed what his inner self is made of, and his heart’s true desires. His further pursuit for “Tan Sri” is therefore no surprise. And neither is his attraction to all things material, financial, and with status.
Did he think this decision, and the belittling of Reverend would go unnoticed by GOD himself?
To all who still insist proof of this and that, hopefully this revelation can cut through all the clutter of ‘defense’ put up for PG. However, even if this fails, this one fact shall remain “One can fool the world, but one can never fool God”
(TRUE STORY's sharing (April 26, 2009 10:58 AM) is no coincidence)
Thank you Family.
Dear TTG and Concerned members, resolutions have been submitted in accordance to the church constitution and time stipulated but the chances are they would all be thrown out like the other two occasions. What are our options if they throw them out again? Please do not spell out the options here otherwise they would know about them. This is just to give all of us some time to seriously think about our options and in preparation for the AGM.
It has been some time since our Easter amnesty and after the blessed weekend, I took some time off from CT to clear my thoughts. Work has since overtaken a lot of that free time.
"Need more be said?" however got me thinking again. There's enough speculation and self interpretation posted for plausible deniability I guess... meaning it ain't fact why even bother.
CT has been keen to take the high road on the nature of postings, only to turn a blind eye when it suits them. See how a speculative posting is allowed to dwell without response? Then again, it's probably the same in CU.
But truly I agree, this is magnifying peanuts. More importantly is the AGM in June.
In that respect, I wholeheartedly question Hong Meng's intention in his article "What is it all about". He writes about focusing on the "real issues" and then highlights the hurt and offences etc. Why not focus on the issues instead of fanning the fire?
He writes that "If members had been ignorant or manipulated to vote to remain status quo at last year's AGM, the Church would have lost Calvary Land and the Extended Ministries forever." Think about it... firstly, if Calverites had voted to maintain status quo they are either ignorant or manipulated? And do you take all Calverites for fools if it were to come to light that these initiatives were lost? What do you think it would do to the bigger scheme of things? I will no doubt be vilified by supporters of CT, but Hong Meng, if you take the role of prosecutor, leave out your personal inclinations.
I have genuine reasons for this because I realize I do know you. And while I reserve my personal opinion of you as private, I am concerned at the subtle work of your pen.
The issues at hand are this:
1. Structural - via the AGM, FGTF etc. this are being addressed. If we are concerned about the slow pace of development, the right forum is the AGM. To be fair, I think change is imminent and deserves a chance. I can think of reasons why Calvaryland for example can operate better outside the structure of the church, but at the same time expect financial accountability on the account of my having participated in funding the program.
I would lump CIM under this issue. Again, I see no useful reason for stating that they did not return the money "cheerfully". This matter was disputed and the resolution meant that monies was transferred back. There was no unaccounted use of the funds and the onus is now on ensuring that any future transfer of funds are verified and accounted for.
2. Personal
A lot of opinions have been offered by various people - some using multiple aliases - both pro and con. Senior Pastor did not have to make that apology on Easter service. Not in front of the whole church and visitors. Maybe time for us to go beyond the hurts and give love a chance to cover the multitude of sin.
On each side of the argument, sentiments run high and self-righteousness is there for all to see. But no one, least of all myself, is perfect. The fundamental grace of our faith is one of reconciliation.
And to be an agent for Godly change, Hong Meng, even me, we need to set aside the personal agenda.
I shall not say more because you know precisely what I mean.
"It's not how we start [in life as well as in minstry], it's how we FINISH that counts."
I'm sure everyone is familiar with this catch-phrase.
PG1 & PG2 started well in ministry but because they did not practise what they preached & allowed greed & covetuousness to gain a foothold in their lives, they are not finishing well, apparently!
Too bad, so sad!
Action speaks louder than words. If someone thinks he has done wrong, do something about it. Dont just say it and do nothing about it unless you dont mean it or you have another agenda.
If a person sincerely asked for forgiveness, you would see a significant change in his life. But not in this case.
NO CHANGE AT ALL!
Oh Josh Oh Josh,
I am a member of Calvary Church for more than 30 years. To be honest, I have never been concerned about AGMs or EGMs for all these years except since last year after Bro Hong Meng highlighted to us all the "wrongs" in our church governance. We have been so un-informed of the truth by the pastors and deacons and sadly, I myself have chosen to be ignorant and foolish in all the past AGMs.
I feel we have been "manipulated" in our voting system. Remember how we all gave our "yes" to the CCC. We were told to stand up and pray for the project and the next thing we know, that would signify our approval. From a RM50M building to now a RM150M building. How did it end up this way. I only stood in agreement for a RM50M building not a RM150M building. Every year just up and up and up the cost but no re-approval from members were asked for - is this not subtle manipulation? Is this not leaving us ignorant of the truth so that we do not question?
Please please Josh, enough of SP's manipulation in the Church that belongs to Jesus - not him.
God is good. I admit I am a strong supporter of TTG. Not so much that I support them like a political group but rather I believe in what they are 'fighting' for. As a matter of fact, I have been fighting and struggling on these issues for a very long time, until I realized that I was not alone. There were many out there too but just didnt want to say it out.
I wish to share here of God's goodness. You know in this time of global financial crisis, God has used it to re-activate a big government project which has gone cold for a few years. God is good indeed. This is indeed good news for our company. Amen!
Seriously, SP DID NOT apologize for his wrongs...what he said was 'IF he did anything wrong...' Emphasize on the word 'IF!'
Come on now, who is he kidding...why bother apologizing when he does not even think he's wrong. Its like what our kids are always told...'Don't say sorry if you don't mean it.' Someone needs to tell PG that and give him a good spanking.
How is it that everyone who has a dissenting view is answered by the following:
- we have been members longer
- we know more than you
- you are ignorant
But never to the point?
God is always in control.
Lets all pray and fast if necessary in our own way for the coming AGM that God will reveal the TRUTH on that night.
I urge all members, both voting or associate members to make that night free for God. Better still, make that special day for God by fasting and praying. It may be for one meal, two meals or whole day depending on your own calling. Do it in His strength and not yours.
Forget about your business or work for that night and come to the AGM. This will be the most important AGM in the history of Calvary Church. If we want God to reveal to us on which way we should go, then make it an appointment to come on that night.
Please do not say that:
1. I am too tired;
2. I have to open shop and do business;
3. What can I do or say, I am only one member;
4. I want to go for a concert or movie;
5. I have a special TV program or series to follow;
6. I have to finish my work; or
7. I will be late, so not point going.
LETS ALL OF US ATTEND THE COMING AGM.
REMEMBER IT IS ON 19 JUNE 2009 (FRIDAY).
Let's also be prayerful before the AGM and that when the time comes, be bold to vote without Fear or Favour.
To Josh @ April 29, 2009 10:43 AM
We have posted Bro Hong Meng's response to your comments which you directed to him in our main post. Please read the latest ADDENDUM.
We have posted his response in the main post because it is related to the article he wrote which you made reference to specifically and also because it is quite lengthy as a comment.
Have a nice day and God Bless.
This article appeared in The Star newspaper on the 25 April 2009. Kindly visit the link and read it, in case you missed out.
URL: http://thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=/2009/4/25/focus/3758368&sec=focus
I guess this is part of what Bro Hong Meng and many of us members are afraid of. I totally agree with Bro Hong Meng that I too am not prepared to accept the erroneous and irresponsible teaching that what I give to the Church I cannot ask questions.
Josh, if you are really sincere in wanting to know the truth, take up Bro Hong Meng's invitation. By him offering to meet up with you, in my opinion, shows his sincerity and truthfulness.
It is good that Bro Hong Meng clarified all the points raised by Josh.
Having read the comments by Josh I felt it is not proper of Josh to make such critical remarks without identifying himself and claiming that he or she knows HM personally. By all means if Josh wants to make such comments then let his or her identity be known to all. Why remain annoymous?
If you want to be a peacemaker which we thought you wanted to protray yourself as one, then, in fairness to members come out openly. Don't try to shoot arrows at TTG members and particularly HM for raising the matters of concern.
Yes, there are too many serious improperities in the handling of church moneys. Where on earth when wrongs are committed that the same are covered up and the offenders (so called leaders and shepherds of the flock) are merely to be accepted/embraced again and the offendees are asked to just accept and forget about the wrongs out of love and then, move on...? Where is accountability and godly character?
God expects and requires the highest standards of moral and spiritual conduct. If this were some normal Associate Pastor what would be the consequence? You can imagine yourself. It would never have taken place. Further would you have so vehemently defended the person? Why is there so much defence and shielding of the SP and BOD here? Why don't they stand up themselves and speak out and clarify matters themselves? Where is humility and truthfulness? Where is strength of character and moral uprightness among our pastors and BOD?
It is indeed a disgrace for these matters to have continued to be argued over and over again when the right and godly thing to do is to acknowledge the wrongs and repent and ask God and the church for forgiveness and make restitution. Why won't the SP, SAP, APs and BOD do that? Why is it so hard to come to this critical point?
God have mercy on us! May God hear the cries of all His children.
Dear Josh,
Either your grasp of English is lacking or you chose to be ignorant. Everyone who voiced out here are always to the point. And the point here is that PG DID NOT sincerely apologise, if at all, you call it an apology. Even a primary school child can tell you the difference between "IF I have done wrong" and "I have done wrong".
Also PLEASE stop echoing the deacons and pastors by saying "The right forum is the AGM".
We have been hoodwinked enough. We have seen what happens at the AGM and EGM and we are tired of hearing that.
Please bark at the right tree. Only PG and deacons can make changes, we can't. If you say they are working on it, then what timeframe are they looking at, one year, two years or ten years. The pace they are working shows the love they have for the church. That's right, they do not appear to love the church enough to move faster. You don't need discernment to realise this.
Right, Discernment Needed? or is it Josh? You both write the same style, maybe the same person. Forgive me IF I am wrong.....(I'm a quick learner...hee..hee)
Hi brothers + sisters in Christ.
Here is an article by Arthur Pink for you to ponder about. May the Good Lord remove spiritual darkness from our mind and spiritual deadness from our heart...Amen
The marks of a true shepherd
(Arthur Pink, Studies in the Scriptures, May, 1939)
How diligently should they scrutinize their motives, who think of entering the ministry; for thousands have abused this Divine institution through love of ease, desire for authority and reputation, or love of money--and brought upon themselves "greater damnation" (James 3:1). Thousands have invaded the pastoral office in an unauthorized manner, to fleece sheep rather than feed them, robbing Christ of His honor and starving His people.
Solemn beyond words is it to observe how sternly our Lord denounced these false shepherds of His day. (Matthew 23) As J. C. Ryle rightly said, "Nothing seemed so offensive to Christ as a false teacher of religion, a false prophet, or a false shepherd. Nothing ought to be so much feared by the Church, be so plainly rebuked, opposed and exposed."
What are the marks of a true shepherd, how are God’s people to identify those called and qualified by Him to minister unto His people?
First, the genuine pastor has the doctrine of Christ on his LIPS. The ministers of the new covenant are described as those who had "renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness." Christendom today is infested with men who are full of deceit and hypocrisy, trimming their sails according to whatever direction the breeze of public opinion is blowing.
"We have renounced secret and shameful ways; we do not use deception, nor do we distort the word of God." (2 Cor. 4:2). The true servant of Christ holds back nothing which is profitable, no matter how unpalatable it may be unto his hearers. He is one who magnifies not himself, nor his denomination, but Christ--His wondrous Person, His atoning blood, His exacting claims.
Second, the genuine pastor has the Spirit of Christ in his HEART. It is the Spirit who opens to him the mysteries of the Gospel, so that he is "the faithful and wise servant" (Matt. 24:45). It is the Spirit of Christ who gives him a love for His sheep, so that it is his greatest delight to lead them into the green pastures of His Word. It is the Spirit of Christ who enables him to use "great boldness of speech" (2 Cor. 3:12), so that he shuns not to declare all the counsel of God. It is the Spirit of Christ who makes him to be "prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage--with great patience and careful instruction" (2 Tim. 4:2). It is the Spirit of Christ who gives efficacy to his ministry, making it fruitful according to the sovereign pleasure of God.
Third, the genuine pastor has the example of Christ in his LIFE, which is a conforming of him to the image of his Master. It is true, sadly true, that there is not one of them who does not fall far short both of the inward and outward image of Christ. Yet there are some faint tracings of His image visible in all His true servants. The image of Christ is seen in their words, spirit, actions; otherwise we have no warrant to receive them as God’s servants.
Find a man (no easy task today!) who has the doctrine of Christ on his lips, the Spirit of Christ in his heart, and the example of Christ in his life--and you find one of His genuine ministers--all others are but "thieves and robbers."
I think it is truly unfair for this Josh to accuse and criticize Bro Hong Meng. Josh, if you truly are genuine to want to be a 'peacemaker', pls go talk to Bro Hong Meng face to face. Let it be an equal opportunity for both parties to know who the other person is since you are right now comfortably hiding behind a pseudonym and accusing Bro Hong Meng of this and that whilst he has absolutely no idea who you are.
So far where have there been fairness and openness for discussion of issues during the past AGMs and EGMs?
Josh claims that AGM is the right forum for members to discuss matters? You must be joking!
Further whatever resolutions that been brought up to BOD have so far been thrown out by BOD, so what can members discuss? All we can do is plead for fairness even then, we are told to sit down by the Chairman!
Now that 7 Resolutions have been brought before the BOD in accordance with the Constitution, we are still kept in the dark....
Will BOD be fair to members and allow the resolutions to be tabled? Will they continue to play the same game as the Chairman and to suppress and oppress members again?
We have completely lost trust in SP, SAP, APs and BOD by their conduct and attitudes. We only have hope in God for His divine intervention and that something drastic may happen and that a miracle takes place!
We long for something good to happen and that a final closure can take place in CC.. we need a miracle, a cleansing and a special visitation from God to unfold!
A REPLY to JOSH
("Need more be said?" however got me thinking again. There's enough speculation and self interpretation posted for plausible deniability I guess... meaning it ain't fact why even bother. )
The ANSWER:
Very simple, if you and those who still think whatever had been exposed by concerned Members & former DEACONS (who are pressing on for TTG ) are just "enough speculation & self interpretation..." Please do this ONE thing to CONFIRM if they are TRUE with those NAMED in all the issues covered herein in CT blog:
1. Meet with Ps Peter re: Missions Funds&
CIM/CARED & the DISSOLVED Foreign Missions
and CARE, and Extended Ministries, Outreaches
Etc,
2. meet with PG & wife re: CIM, CCC, Calvary land,
Datukship, Gifts received (CARS & love offering)
Relationships with loved ones, staff, ETC,ETC
3. Meet with BOD Individually Re: Re-appointment
of SP + ALL the above listed in 1&2.
Some advice:
1. look them in the Eyes
2. Ask for YES or NO reply (Please have a
Checklist).
3. Have at least one witness with you
4. Better still, have it recorded (to avoid "This is not what I said" or "That is not what I meant" or "Actually, it was like this...(i.e. beating round the bush..and no answer in the end!)
So, it is hope until you VERIFY these yourself, please refrain from making wild accusations--
it's enough of your own "speculation and self interpretation".
Looking forward to receiving your FULL findings.
Dear Hong Meng,
It is good that for once, I get a direct response.
Let me state for the record that in any other circumstances, I would dearly want to meet you face to face and thrash this out. However from my observation, there are some who will go to great lengths to make their point and I do not want to risk the safety and general right of my family to worship in peace.
To be fair to me, I have yet to read CT or anyone else in the forum challenging others to identify themselves... why is that so?
Like it or not, you are a prosecuting voice by virtue of the references to your writings.
Read the first paragraph of your article. The mention of the real issues is crowded by references to personal offence culminating in a very suggestive final conclusion. As a corporate man, surely this pattern is too convenient to negate intention. My response to the way your article is written stems from this underlying pattern of augmenting the "real" issues with not so subtle intentions. If you are truly focused on the issues, stick with the facts and leave out the personal commentary.
This arises again when you wrote "If members had been ignorant or manipulated to vote to remain status quo at last year's AGM, the Church would have lost Calvary Land and the Extended Ministries forever." To paraphrase that, what you are implying is that those who voted to remain status quo are either ignorant or manipulated - are you so sure? Perhaps the reason you and others stood up was not blind obedience but with the knowledge that the costs of building materials, petrol etc. was on an rapid escalation and peaking last year? No, Calverites are not fools, and to your credit, neither are you.
On the matter of the AGM, it is the right forum. The basic fundamental problem with partiality is the fact that leaders interact with one another. We are by all definitions, a family of God. By the same vein, we elect leaders on the basis of the faith and leadership they have shown. Like I mentioned before, how did a "lone dissenting voice of Dr Lum" survive reelection in a board purportedly assembled by those blindly subservient to Senior Pastor?
On the matter of CIM, your craft emerges once again. You wrote "I am not in a position to argue on the legality of the fund transfer but definitely, it was morally wrong. If our Church was registered as a company or a society it would be CBT." On one hand, you are not in a position to define the legality of the transfer but if this were a company it were criminal breach of trust? C'mon... I am under no illusions that if CT had documentary evidence of wrongdoing, it will no sooner be featured on the portal and probably submitted to the proper authorities. Are you graduating from prosecutor to judge?
I hate having to do this Hong Meng, but it makes no sense to me.
You further expound about the word "if" in Senior Pastor's apology. "If" is also applicable to those who are involved, i.e. "if" you do not know, this does not apply. Once again you retreat to say it is not about personal offence that you have so generously provided reference to in this article, but transparency, accountability and governance - so stick to the point. As I said, this was done in a public venue on a very public Easter Day.
The question of personal agenda can go beyond money. I am moved to write this - vengeance is His and His alone. If you chose to serve our Lord, and do it His way, I will be only to glad to re-introduce myself to you and serve by your side.
There has been so much debate on apology with "if" and so forth. To me it is very clear, that when you apologise you state what you are apologizing for and not for any wrong, if it was wrong or anything as vague as "anything"
The way SP has made his IF apology, it is like a blanket apology to cover for all his wrongs - also like a standing order so that next time any wrong is done by him, it is already covered in his IF apology. This is not like salvation where once you confess your sins, God forgives you and accepts you as his child.
Hello Josh, you get direct response because you ask HM directly.
Since you ask HM directly, then you should tell him who you are. We never ask HM anything so why tell who we are. Did you not read about our brother Joseph who put his name down and now cannot be life group leader anymore. We learn from other people's mistake. Like someone commented earlier we are quick learner also.
There you go Josh. I somehow knew that you would not take up Bro Hong Meng's invitation. I just couldn't understand you; on one hand you are asking for truth and facts, but on the other hand, when Bro Hong Meng willingly meet up with you, you chicken out!
I also don't understand your statement, "However from my observation, there are some who will go to great lengths to make their point and I do not want to risk the safety and general right of my family to worship in peace." My question to you is have anyone intimidated you and/or any other calvarites/worshipers in church. Common, don't you dare try paint a negative picture about all the concerned members or the TTG.
I must admit you can write well and your words are pretty 'persuasive.' But, while reading your comments, I somehow sense your intentions and motives are not as "pretty" as your words.
Bro Hong Meng, you have done well in explaining your part. Moreover, you've even offered to meet up with Josh. I salute you for that. Too bad and too sad, some people don't walk the talk. I shouldn't be surprised right, for even Pastors (so called God anointed people)don't walk the talk too. In my opinion, leave Josh with his own understandings, thoughts and intentions, Bro Hong Meng. For those of you who thought Josh would be the peacemaker based on the way he writes, very sorry I think it's "WRONG NUMBER" (Wrong person).
I would urge bro Hong Meng to completely and utterly ignore Josh. Save your energy for things worthy of your time.
Josh, please dont use the excuse that you don't want to risk the safety of your family to worship in peace. As far as I know, nobody's family has suffered the consequences of speaking up for the truth. You are a poor excuse of a person who has no guts to identify yourself and take up bro Hong Meng's offer to meet with him.
Instead you hide behind your monicker and the safety of your pc.
Words like "subtlety of your pen" and "your craft emerges again" confounds me. Bro Hong Meng has always been transparent when he writes and many of us know he has no hidden agenda. He writes and shares from the heart. He uses his name! Until you have the gumption to speak to him face to face I am telling you to stop giving your two cents worth. Face him or shut up!
Bro HM, think you have spent enough time to explaim to this Josh. Looks like he won't meet you personally. His excuse his family 1 2 worship in peace is rxbbxxh. As if we want to talk to his family so much. and more worst excuse is safety for his family is suggesting that TTG are violent ppl. Absolutely outrages. That's what pastors and staff have been telling members abt TTG and they patrol the church grounds every service. Hv you all notice, they are spread out every place in church on sundays?
We can guess his real reason for hiding. Yeah say we think we know more than him and we think he is ignorant and we do not state facts blah blah blah. In actual fact, he thinks we are ignorant and he knows more than us and seriously I have no clue what he is asking us to believe. He is just putting words for the sake of writing something totally opposite of Bro HM that's all.
To Josh, only Bro HM wants to meet you, the rest of us don't really care who you are. But thanks for asking questions. When you ask, Bro HM reply, we get to know TTG's view point more. You hv not notice that TTG is not always willing to share their secret findings and actions unless they are questioned directly. So your assumption that they will reveal their evidence simply shows that you have no idea who you are talking about. TTG is one group of ppl who work "under cover" so well that you don't even know what to expect next.
My observation, Josh is trying to get Bro HM to waste his time replying to him so that TTG cannot prepare for the AGM. Is this what you call red herring?
Josh, to your question, “how did a "lone dissenting voice of Dr Lum" survive reelection in a board purportedly assembled by those blindly subservient to Senior Pastor?”
The Bible answer is: Roman 11: 4-6 (NIV)
Elijah complained to God, “Lord, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars; I am the only one left, and they are trying to kill me” And what was God’s answer to him? “ I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.”
The Message translation: Romans 11: 2-10
“2-6 Do you remember that time Elijah was agonizing over this same Israel and cried out in prayer? God, they murdered your prophets, They trashed your altars; I'm the only one left and now they're after me! And do you remember God's answer? I still have seven thousand who haven't quit, Seven thousand who are loyal to the finish.
It's the same today. There's a fiercely loyal minority still—not many, perhaps, but probably more than you think. They're holding on, not because of what they think they're going to get out of it, but because they're convinced of God's grace and purpose in choosing them. If they were only thinking of their own immediate self-interest, they would have left long ago.
7-10 And then what happened? Well, when Israel tried to be right with God on her own, pursuing her own self-interest, she didn't succeed. The chosen ones of God were those who let God pursue his interest in them, and as a result received his stamp of legitimacy. The "self-interest Israel" became thick-skinned toward God."
Josh, I hope you see why Dr Lum was able to survive all these years as the “lone dissenting voice”. IT WAS BY THE GRACE OF GOD AND THE DIVINE APPOINTMENT OF GOD.
So the issue has reverted to another sideshow... and I am judged on the basis of my choice not to meet Hong Meng? I can't say I am surprised.
Perhaps if everyone in this forum were to sign with their own name we'd be a lot more civil... but until then, I have no qualms remaining Josh.
The writing is there for all to see and I am beginning to wonder if ignorance is limited to the few mentioned by Hong Meng.
I have no interest in addressing what is done under cover. But the fact that Hong Meng published this update, he should (and has demonstrated I must say) be willing to address the resulting response.
I think many are trying to paint the picture that the TTG or the concerned members are violent, barbarians, gangsters and satanic people.
They are playing with psychology. Trying to impress upon the church members that TTG are evil people.
I must say I have never met so nice people as the TTG.
Lets wait and see who is standing on the side of TRUTH. No need to wait much longer. Amen!
Dear all, let's not waste our time on Josh anymore. let's focus on the issues that matter. Calvary Church is going downhill, and if nothing changes and SP and family continues to run the church as if they are owners of the church funds and can do whatever they wish to or want to, Calvary Church will die a natural death. The group of TTG brothers and sisters can only do so much and whilst they continue to fight the good fight of faith, the rest is really up to God to intervene and stop the iron fist of PG and family from continuing to abuse their authority. If PG and his family do not repent and continue being proud and arrogant, the day will come when God's patience will run out and whatever is coming to PG and family will come to them.
Blessed Labour day, all!
Good morning Josh,
Looks like you take great exception to the phrase "money(funds) was not returned cheerfully" in Bro Hong Meng's latest post.
Based on the facts of events now known to widely across the country, most Calvarites know that there was no official communication to seek a tacit congregational consent of such a hugh sum of mission funds being transferred to the CIM (a private ministry of PG). The pulpits (at DH and satellites) are available for this purpose but instead now used to disparage Calvarites and regular worshippers who wish to determine TRUTH. To many of us RM200,000 per year over many years amounting to an aggregate sum of RM1.9 million is not some loose change.
Upon discovery of the "unauthorised" annual transfers (known to just a small group of inner circle), any responsible leader would have immediately said "Sorry Folks" and executed immediate remedial action. Granted that the seed-money of RM30,000 was announced but there was no announcement or subsequent announcement of an annual grant. Minutes of BODs' meeting are not totally reliable as there's only a master copy. Amazing and CC business goes on as usual on this basis. The promise (at the August EGM) of the "Way Forward" with OPENNESS and Constitutional Review has been stucked in the mud. Put the updates in the Calvary News. Are there any positive and meaningful action to draft a constitution that can test of time for a fountainhead body of Jesus Christ.
Instead of repentance and sincere apologies in response to the discovery, with the help and support of BODs a big show of an EGM was called at great cost time and expense. Adding salt to injury by engaging the best brains to mount resistance and the importing and rewarding of a founding pastor to chair and control. What's the date of initial discovery? You check it out. What's the date of the EGM? 15August 2008.
Not until the de-registration of the CIM by NECF was PG & BODs finally moved to release the funds back to CC. Again, what's the date of the release? Positively after the de-registration. Josh please be truthful and fair and in your own words, apply an appropriate word to describe all the charade - still calling it willingly or rather reluctantly release as the EGM was designed nothing else but desparately to "legitimise" his arrogance that PG did no harm and there was nothing wrongful in his actions. PG is the root cause of the problem contributing substantially to all the subsequent events of intimidations (calling members malicious) sacking Dr. Lum, removal of church positions of enlightened Calvarites which has caused confusion pain and loss of spiritual esteem.
What more evidence do you brethens and sisters need? Please spell them out or withhold your condemnations until the June AGM.
Hi Josh
I read with great interest this paragraph of yours, "Let me state for the record that in any other circumstances, I would dearly want to meet you face to face and thrash this out. However from my observation, there are some who will go to great lengths to make their point and I do not want to risk the safety and general right of my family to worship in peace."
Clearly, you revealed your true colour. In simple term, you are a mere coward and plain hypocrite. Be bold to meet HM '4 eyes'. Otherwise, you are no different from SP and BOD - all hiding behind something. Dare not face truth!!! No character!!! Your action is all the same as SP and BOD - see how you behave in this blog and see how they behaved in the most recent EGM towards Dr Lum and his challenge to the leadership!!!
Hi Josh,
I use this moniker so you know this come from the same person. I am not good in guessing who the other person is but trust God that those comments
were written by responsible persons accountable to God and are concerned about CC.
You said:
"Perhaps if everyone in this forum were to sign with their own name we'd be a lot more civil... but until then, I have no qualms remaining Josh."
My response:
I am willing to sign with my own name any time if you would do so likewise. What say you? Lets add more weight and credibility of our words and thoughts.
Aren't Joseph Gerald a good example? Has any body harm him and his family? Oh yes, he has been relieved from being the Life Group leader. What worse can that be?
Saloam!
Dear all,
How does knowing who I am change the equation of things? I can understand Hong Meng's request to know but the conviction with with some of the other postings are made only tells me that I made the right decision.
Actually, the Last Straw sounds so much like HM... but whatever the case, I like to clarify that I did not take exception to the phrase but the context. HM is by all accounts, a retired and successful corporate man with a decent command of the language. His articles appear to be well documented - I use the word "appear" not to disparage but to balance my appreciation of his skill with an apprehension of his intent - he is far too polished for the suggestions to be coincidental. As I wrote, state the fact and leave it at that.
And our dear eloquent reflection of JOSH, if that is the measure of judgment by which you have used on Senior Pastor and the Board of Deacons, then truly I say... my "cowardice and lack of character" is not the biggest issue for consideration. If you fail to guard the integrity of your pen (which is by all accounts retrospective in nature), how will you guard the nature of your tongue? Is this the type of heckling that was left out in CT's description of the EGM? Again, no doubt this will yield the typical disdain of some...
Ready to meet up should re-read what I wrote.
Playing psychology should remain just playing if that is your conclusion. Ask yourself why so many - even CT folks themselves if they care to admit - readily post using pseudonyms? You clearly support HM's call to treat the ailment not the symptoms but choose to demonstrate otherwise when it suits?
To Lone Dissenting Voice, yes, I truly agree that God is in control. Try using that argument across the board?
Sorry for having to do this but let's all sit back and take stock. The AGM is coming and all should attend with an open heart and mind. God's love illuminates and it ain't selective about where the light falls...
Good evening Josh,
Sorry you barking up the wrong tree. I am not Bro Hong Meng.
Keep trying harder
Hi Josh,
You are no different from what you claimed against Hong Meng. You too has judged "unknowingly". Gently, please read what you have written and examine if there never a tint of psychology in the plays.
Just read this...
"Let me state for the record that in any other circumstances, I would dearly want to meet you face to face and thrash this out."
Why in any other circumstances? Isn't it all the more important for you to meet up. Are you saying Hong Meng is not trustful?
Again, I invite you to make thing simple. Avail yourself, just as your words. Personally, I would like to meet up with you and Discerning Needed. Obviously, we are of different views. That should not be the obstacle to meet. Moreso if we are all thinking on how to move forward. The part on reconciliation among brethren must be one prime subject we must be interested to address.
Read this.....
"I have no interest in addressing what is done under cover."
Walk your talk! All that was said under pseudonyms, are they not done under cover? They are obviously under cover from most men but ultimately done under the watchful eye of GOD. Beware!
Renung lah!
WHAT HAVE YOU DONE?
To Josh,
I see that you have replied selectively--
can you please respond to my reply to you --suggesting that you meet up with PG, Pas Ong & BOD to find out the truth of all that you alleged are mere self interpretation of concerned members with regard to all the matters raised in CT , and in Hong Meng's article.
You seem very slippery when you are confronted to act! If, indeed you are SINCERELY serious, why haven't you met with them and get it from the "horse's mouth"?
Awaiting for your OWN (honest) investigation findings, ( Q&A) and have them reveal here.
Hi TTG members, why is it necessary or important to know or to meet people like Josh and Discernment Needed. It does not matter if they are the same person or not because they are not the subject(s) of our interest. We are more concerned of what needs to be done to restore the principles of TRUTH, TRANSPARENCY AND GOOD GOVERNANCE in OUR church. Lets not be too worked up over them or their comments. Just take it with a pinch of salt. Its obvious that they have their own agenda.
Hi Be Wise,
Although I can see your point, I am of the opinion that we should persevere to explain and enlighten people like Josh and Discernment Needed. After all, they are still our brothers (or sisters) in the Lord even if their sight is slightly clouded at this time. That is unless they are actually one of the Deacons or Pastors or their relatives writing under a moniker. Or they could be a person highly indebted to PG,PG2,or family, or some interested party through relationships, contracts, etc. In such a case, it will be highly unlikely that we can make them to finally see clearly. But we should try.
The TTG folks especially HM, KC, Liza, Winslow, SC, Teng should be commended for taking such time and effort to endevour to set things right, with nothing to gain except to do what is right and what the Lord directs them to do. And Dr Lum too, who has sacrificed much to walk the narrow and difficult way for truth.
It is farcical that despite the many points that I have stated, the protectors of TTG/CT and whatever pseudonyms they go by continue to harp on peanuts.
If Wong Hong Meng was interested in addressing truth, he should do so - period. That's my point again. He has no business disguising his opinions as if it were fact. If indeed TTG/CT had facts and were withholding it, where is the accountability you so profess? What is it that you can show me in private that cannot be shown in public???
Don't talk to me about removing the veil if TTG/CT chooses to operate on the sly.
TTG/CT has set up accountability, accountability and all that jive as its rallying cry... then walk the talk.
If truth and governance are to be the governing standards of the church, then the body which is the church needs to manifest this. And this applies more so to the loudest voices of dissent - if that call be one that is holy and true.
Awaken again or Need MORE & MORE be Said? said or whatever other names you choose to go by - I am interested to know the truth too but in my own way. Is that too much to ask?
What I do note however is what I have commented on. And until I satisfy myself that people like Wong Hong Meng are beyond reproach in these matters, I shall continue to ask the difficult questions - irregardless of whether he chooses to ignore it all.
Be wise, I welcome your correction if it contained truth. But truly I say, just as I pointed out to HM, there is no need to suggest who I am - for the record, I am not. And I shall let my word be my witness.
And lastly, dear Ready to meet up... I am most aware that God will not be mocked. And we shall all be called to account on what we do. That is why I am at peace writing these words. My question to Hong Meng, Liza, KC and all the names that were mentioned... are you?
Josh sounds like boiling all over? The true colours are on display now.
At first he /she seems rather harmless and polite ... but now getting very aggressive and fierce. Calling out names with no restrain and getting most impatient!
Does not want to meet Bro Hong Meng but now saying he/she wants to find out truth his/her own way?
Suggesting that HM must be beyond reproach and what about the same test being administered to pastors, BOD and leaders also?
Josh oh Josh. It’s you again. Funny you are spending so much time chewing on the peanuts that TTG has handed out.
Boiling Point, you hit the bull's eye. I also had the same thoughts of Josh loosing his cool lately. Must be the peanuts too hard to chew and swollow.
Come to think of it, these peanuts about the church leaders are really difficult to chew and swollow. It is really unbelievable. We need a Truth Committee to help us digest all these peanuts.
Actually I find nothing funny about the subject matter. If I am more vocal, it is only for the reasons I stated.
Personally I do not know KC or Liza, and I apologize if mentioning their names is considered a personal attack. That is not my intention. But I stand by my response to Hong Meng by virtue of what he wrote.
And in response to boiling point, I totally agree that the same standards need apply to our leaders. Which is why I support the call for transparency, just not the way it is being called for. I do not think that bringing out a checklist prepared largely by people I do not know will help in the quest for truth. It only fans anger and turns away people - in case you didn't notice, our leaders are people too.
Why am I spending so much time here? Because I care too.
Josh,
Suggest that you should refrain from acting as though "you are holier than thou"!
No need to lecture on others here. You think that CT or TTG don't have wisdom and discernment from the Holy Spirit?
If you take the hard and critical stance than all the more you are "adding salt to the wounds" of many members who have been disillusioned and grossly let down by pastors and BOD of CC. You can't deny or ignore the 'fruits' of pastors and BOD over the last 14 months..
More harm than good is done if you try to hit out unreasonably here.
Think and write carefully....
Josh, Josh!
It is unbelievable the way you stand so solidly behind SP and the BOD until it is becoming a bit absurd.
Of course we have to stand behind our pastor and the church but that does not mean we cannot question certain things.
Can you please answer the following:
1) SP is an annointed position but is this position filled by a human being Yes or No
2) PG is a human being and thus, like you and I, can do wrong
Yes or No
3) PG as SP of CC - is he not then the shepherd of ALL MEMBERS of CC and not the deacons, ass. pastors and leaders Yes or No
NOW FOR THE MOST IMPORTANT QUESTION.
4) As the shepherd and SP of ALL MEMBERS and there is problem, should he (PG) not come forth and dialogue and resolve matters with the TTG group instead of meeting only certin people Yes or No
If the answer to No. 4 is "Yes" - why do you Josh need to defend him
BTW Josh how well do you know PG as a person, a human being.
Josh please answer the questions - yes or no instead of diverting round and round other issues.
seriously, this is getting a bit ridiculous to me...I know who Bro Hong Meng is...I know who Dtk KC, Sis Liza and the rest of the TTG members are...but I have no idea whatsoever who this person called Josh is...so to me as a reader, why should I even bother reading what 'Josh' has to say or what 'Josh's' opinion is on things when he doesn't even hv the guts to reveal his identity. for all we know, he could be one of the very people responsible for all the lack of transparency and accountability issues in church...if not, he could even be a non calvarite who wants to meddle around with the affairs of calvary, or he could even be a non christian pretending to be a christian. so to me, 'Josh', whoever you are, however valid or strong your opinions may be, it does not matter to me as it is like 'going in one ear and going out the other' for readers like us since you have no credibility to your opinions as you do not dare to reveal your identity. enough said. So 'Josh', either you reveal your identity or just stop commenting as you're merely wasting not only the TTG's time to reply to you but you are also wasting us readers time to have to scroll past your comments. Thank you.
If a person does not want to reveal himself or herself, it only means that we all know very well who the person is.
Need I say more.
Dear Be Wise,
Please forgive me if my pursuit seems futile in your sight. Josh is a person I still think dearly even we are of different views.
Although I am not a TTG member (I wish I am considered one) but I do consider myself as a concerned member of CC and support what Hong Meng has said and other like minded persons in this forum.
I have learned from a brother this week that there are three "righteousness", namely unrighteousness, self righteousness and God imputed righteousness. According to him, it is easier for the unrighteous to approach God than the self-righteous,for the self-righteous having had the self imputed righteousness do not need the righteousness of God. Renung lah! I need to take a look at myself and around me. Have I given in to my self-righteousness that I have hinder others today?
Dear Josh,
Apart from what had been revealed, there are facts and supporting information that I can provide in the right forum and even in the court of law if needs be. Tell me on what premise should these be revealed? Will they help in reconciliation and rebuilding of CC if these were made known to you? Or are we more happy to tear the church further apart by publishing right here? Where is Jesus in the midst of us (in conflict)? Tell me what would Jesus do.
On another note, take a look at the reality. Ever since the recent EGM, an AP whom I thought close to me had time and again avoiding me in the church. No eye contact, no smile. Last Sunday was the 4th time he made the swift detour when facing me. What have I done wrong? Yes he saw me voted against four of the five resolutions. Josh, if you happen to know me, will you act the same way?
God bless all!
Dear Calvarites,
I know this has been said or mentioned earlier but I felt that we should all be kept reminded about the coming AGM.
We want to make sure all members have been informed about the coming AGM. But more importantly, they should try their very best to attend.
It will be sad to hear a Calvarite telling us after the AGM that he or she did no know about the coming AGM or he/she is too busy or tired to attend.
We do not want to tell you what you should vote or stand for, but its all for you to decide.
Listen and see whats happening in our church and consider them carefully what have been placed before us, then vote in accordance to what is right or what should be done.
But do remember to pray and ask for God's wisdom.
Hello all Calvarites(present & past),
It is brethen/sisters such as whatever their acronyms who are seriously a part of the spiritual problem and on-going unsatisfactory state of affairs taking place inside Calvary Church since recent revelations of bad practices.
They extend a "loyal" helping hand to the perpetrators of the wrong-doings and encourage the church leadership to cruise along as if all wrong doings never exist or perhaps buried underground after two EGMs and a so-called Task Force gathering.
They are the chorus lines for often quoted:-
Let God be God
Touch not God's anointed
Consider the plank in you eyes before you judge another person
and the most absurd defensive stance is "a church cannot apply the corporate/business place practice" Excuse me do they know what they say or just "parroting" the bosses.
Unashamedly, we are no where near corporate/business place good practice considering the lack of church governance discipline and financial management(or good stewardship of church funds and assets)
What's CC claim to fame in the spiritual realm as a fountainhead church. A obstinate senior pastor who is supported by a majority number of deacons and associate pastors to make just cosmetic changes. I too believe in God's plan and purpose but it does require a human being to lift up his hand of assistance as an agent of spiritual reforms. Dr. Lum who has spoken up has been unceremiously "kicked" out. Remember truth itself does not change things. But TRUTH applied transforms lives.
Intimidation and removal of church positions continue to be practiced unabated like a weapon of mass destruction telling worshippers whom the leadership is uncomfortable with to leave the church
The leadership's propaganda has been effective as you now have a remaining core group of life-group leaders much brainwashed clueless and directionless. Many in the history of the Church life-group leaders have assembled themselves so frequently.
Stand up to be counted if we all wish to make a difference in CC. Yes, senior pastor's fight and resistance is to save CC too but we should by now know his personal agenda well enough.
Be further misled at your own risk and suffer the consequential spiritual abuse. Several of our friends have scattered to other churches because they are unable to go through the pain and we can understand their decision.
Hello all Calvarites (present & past),
I am sorry for the error appearing in the last sentence of the 7th paragraph, reading "Many in the history.........so frequently"
This statement should be read as "Never in the history of the Church, Life-group leaders have to assembled so frequently to soak in so much propaganda"
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