Calvary Today 2: Breaking News….Dr Lum call it quits

Saturday, November 22, 2008

Breaking News….Dr Lum call it quits

Dr Lum Siew Heng , a deacon highly respected by the TTG group, has taken that heroic step and submitted his resignation from the Board of Deacons just a few hours ago. We could almost hear the angels in heaven clapping and cheering.

Just when we thought that our prayers may not be answered, God has, once again, proven His faithfulness to us and shown us that He is still in control. We thank God for giving our dear deacon the courage and boldness to say, “Enough is enough”.

When Neil Armstrong stepped on the moon, he said those famous words “That’s one small step for man, one giant leap for mankind”.

When Dr Lum took that one small step and put in his resignation, it was a giant leap for Truth, Transparency and Governance. This one small step speaks volume and gives great encouragement to us and hopefully, all of you who have been one with us in our struggle to re-establish truth, transparency, proper governance, good stewardship, accountability and integrity in our beloved church.

Let us continue to pray that the rest of the deacons will emulate Dr Lum and do what is right.

Dr Lum, CalvaryToday salutes you!

366 comments:

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Anonymous said...: We lost a CC Lim Kit Siang; November 22, 2008 at 6:25 AM
Anti-Anonymous said...: Stop giving your comments by signing off as Anonymous.

Dont even have the courtesy to sign off with any other name. Then better not blog.; November 22, 2008 at 6:57 AM
Anonymous said...: Jerry Johnson has 'fessed' up by settling some of his tax dues (tho a few years late) with the IRS with the help of his tax accountants and lawyers. He and his first family is still under investigation by the State Attorney.

Will the G family be able to?; November 22, 2008 at 7:17 AM
Anonymous said...: WTT Gubarat says

Whats equally worse is the G 'lordy' or double standard treatment of us fellow calvarites, paid and unpaid staff .
1. Kena LOTT
2. Servant to do domestic chores for them. SP does not practice what he preach. Don't walk the talk (lamed duck)
3. Staff has to retire at 55 else half pay - bonded servitude (and we complained about our forefathers bonded servitude under our colonial masters)

4. Mother of all lies , surreptitiously keep us uninformed calvarites about SP and SAP past their retirement ages. Informed BOD kept up the charade by covering up and deceiving us at EGM.

5. Go figure why this blog is necessary.

6. You asked us to have fairness, truthfulness, gentleness, in love, in humility, in respect even in confrontation.

7. We have been FAIR and TRUTHFUL else we won't seek TTG!!!! As usual its the devil advocate seeking to distort TTG - Prov 6:12-19

8. We still love SP and family else we will have sought out the local authorities. However Our LOYALTY is to CC and GOD only.

9. Go figure why some of us are trying very hard to be gentle in our quest for TTG then.; November 22, 2008 at 7:51 AM
Anonymous said...: Justice Delayed is Justice Denied!!!! in addition to WTT comment above

Our platform here is that we want TTG to prevail in CC so that God can be Glorified.

IT IS VERY SIMPLE!!!

Our church leaders (BOD), and our SP are expected, because of their positions and calling, to have a HIGHER responsibility and obligations in their actions and words. NO AMBIGUITY!!!!

Because of the above

Every half truths that they utter, every misdirection or sidetrack or bait and switch carnal tactics that they employ are just PLAIN WRONG in the sight of GOD. God's sheep have been confused, lost, not fed or worst strayed because of the wrongdoings (ommitted or committed).

However Anon 2:25 (or other appropriated aliases etc) put the onus on us to prove that SP and his cohorts were not outright liars or thieves. That we have to prove SP is innocent until proven guilty.

SP had deployed lawyers, accountants and I'm not surprise hiring PR personnel to counter us.

This is against every BIBLICAL principles that we have been taught.

Do you need to be a rocket scientist to understand this. Even my uneducated grandmother understand this!!!!!!; November 22, 2008 at 7:55 AM
Simpleman said...: Dr Lum,

Kudos to you and praise the Lord for He has called you for such a time as this.

I appeal to the other members of the BOD to emulate Dr Lum's brave move in standing up for TTG (not Teh Tarik but Truth, Transparency and Good Governance).

BOD, quit ENBLOC to protest SP's actions, both past, present and future, I mean the unthinkable ones.

BOD, your silence is DEAFENING. You are called for such a time as this. You will be held accountable, both before men and God, for not doing what you have been called to do, not protecting SP's interest but the interest of the members of the body of Christ in CC.

The ball is in your courts, BOD. Do the honourable thing and please God.

Step down to redeem your honour, whatever there's left. Period.; November 22, 2008 at 8:00 AM
Call to Rest of BOD said...: Rest of BOD this is your moment to stand up for truth. You have been remained silent and waiting for too long.

We pray that the Holy Spirit will remove the scales in your eyes and all blindness and further soften your harddened hearts.

May you not fear SP anymore but only fear GOD alone Ecc 12:13,14. Do what is right, truthful and honest before God and men.

We have been waiting for your long delayed action. Be very brave and courageous...Please do not disappoint us anymore.; November 22, 2008 at 9:01 AM
Ah Beng No. 2 said...: Dear BOD, minus Dr Lum,

The moment of truth has arrived. You have been called for such a time as this. Stand up for TTG and show your SOLIDARITY with hurting Calvarites.

The GROUNDSWELL IS GROWING and SP will not be able to stem it anymore. BOD, I appeal to you to stand in SOLIDARITY with members, for you have been called to serve God's interest not SP's.; November 22, 2008 at 9:10 AM
Mr Dung said...: Anonymous: all comments sound good. Will take my time to read. But it somehow lose some worth and power and uumph without a name.

Wow, is calvary church now having leadership crisis?
1)does it mean to say he can no longer accept the affairs of the church?
2) does it mean this is the beginning of the tip of the iceberg?
3)I believe, Dr Lum must have been tolerating a lot of nonsense for many years, is he going to expose more 'worms in the can'?
4)Is he the only one right now to resign? I heard a few more will follow soon?
5)Is this a sign, SP is losing his support?
6)Will some associate pastor resign soon?
7)Is calvary church --all pastoral team still sinning because of 'cover-up' of church administration and financial and power issue?; November 22, 2008 at 9:21 AM
Ah Heng said...: Dear bro Han, bro Patrick, bro Philip, bro Stephen, bro Edward, and sis Bernadette,

We are praying earnestly for you to be bold in the Lord. We know some of you are intimidated by SP, for reasons only known to yourselves, some are even mesmerised by him, some even feel beholden to him, and some may even think you owe him one because he has given you one.

Whatever your reasons to continue your blind loyalty to that man, we pray that God will remove you fear, for God is love and His perfect love dispels all fear.

So in Jesus' name, arise O ye members of the BOD and stand up for TTG. For once, make God proud, just as you have tried to make your earthly fathers proud when you were younger.

BOD, please step down as you have already lost the calling to lead. In short, all of you have blown it! So quit!; November 22, 2008 at 9:23 AM
Mr Khoo said...: Dear BOD

There had been numerous calls for you guys to resign because of your inability to take charge, please resign soonest; as i continue to follow all the comments in all previous post, some people going to sue you people for your abuses.

You should be responsible and committed in your calling; November 22, 2008 at 9:25 AM
Wondering said...: Dont waste your time. The rest of the BOD will not resign.

They have their reasons.

Let them stay there and suffer the consequences.; November 22, 2008 at 9:55 AM
obvious said...: Dear Dr Lum

Thank you for daring to do what is right. God will bless you for your boldness. The rest of the BOD have a lot to learn from you. I'm sure it hasn't been easy to be the sole deacon who dared to speak up against SP when you do not agree with his decisions and actions, you had probably faced a fair share of persecution from not only SP, but the rest of the BODs. God bless you for your faithfulness and long suffering.; November 22, 2008 at 9:58 AM
No Troublemaker said...: An open letter to Pastors of CC,

Warmest greetings in Jesus' glorious name!

In this hour of need, I appeal to your conscience to do the RIGHT thing. Apart from the BOD, many of you are probably the people closest to SP by virtue of your working relationship with him.

Many of you meet him almost on a daily basis, and all of you meet him at least once a week during your pastoral meeting.

Has it ever crossed your mind that what SP is doing is not right. Well, some of you think he's the anointed one and you should not touch him, but we are not asking you to touch him, either physically or spiritually.

The least you could do is to advise him that the church is hurting, and the cause of it all is him.

Instead of advising, cautioning and alerting him, some of you have even ventured to be at his bidding, to carry out his schemes, eg. witch-hunting.

You have been called to do God's will, and not SP's will, and whims and fancy.

And if you are called to do God's will, then arise and do it with fear and reverence for God, and not SP. Your calling is to love God's sheep, not to carry our SP's schemes to beat them and watch in glee as they cry out in hurt and discouragement.

When asked by members, some of you claimed that you have "tried to speak to SP". Well, we give you the benefit of the doubt that you did indeed try to speak to SP. Let it not be just PR talk, and I know the name of one such AP who has said this to a low-profile member who supports the cause of TTG. God will hold you accountable for every word that you have said.

Our pastors, please do the right thing. You are, as SP has preached many years ago, God-sent ROADBLOCKS TO HELL so that none, even SP, should go down that road. And our prayer is that none of us will by our own free choice go that way.

Arise O pastors of CC, and stand up for TTG. Speak to SP and warn him of the dangers that lurk if He continues with what he's doing because it's not right. And if you know it's not right, tell him so. In life, sometimes we need to be "cruel" in order to be kind, otherwise we fail in our duty to help our brethren. Remember, SP is not only your boss; he's also your brother in Christ.

Be bold in the Lord and stand up for Him. You are GOD'S ROADBLOCKS TO HELL.

Your fellow brother in Christ,

No Troublemaker; November 22, 2008 at 10:02 AM
Bamboo Conspiracy said...: BEGINNING OF THE END!

Praise the Lord - this IS the beginning of the END.

I am very happy for the minority in the TTG group that against all odds stood the ground and are now seeing victory. As I said before, prepare yourself for the Post Calvary Era or has someone rightly put is "Post SP Era"

If the National Christian organisations, Leaders of other churches, etc choose to remain silent, the Lord will even raise up 'stones' and 'donkeys' to speak to accomplish His will. Let this be an eye openner - because your silence makes your presence irrelevent! There is still time for damage control - it is very easy - do the right thing and stand publically for Truth, Transparency & Governance.

Events at Calvary have shaken your creditability in the eyes of the Christians. Perhaps the Post SP Era Calvary Church will form a separate ministry and stand in the gap to press on for Church Governance and be the model church as others do not want to champion the couse.

I salute Dr. Lum for your discernment that staying on in the BOD is a lost cause. You have my full support. Fear God - not men!

Press on Calvarities that others in the BOD also resign!

PLEASE DO NOT LEAVE CALVARY CHURCH - GOD IS FIGHTING ON YOUR BEHALF AND YOU WILL REJOICE WHEN VICTORY COMES. IT WILL SURELY COME. WAIT A LITTLE LONGER BEFORE YOU DECIDE TO LEAVE.

Vijay; November 22, 2008 at 10:28 AM
Siew Chyuan said...: To Dr Vijay,

I agree 100% with your comments except that it will be known as the post PG era as Calvary Church will still be around after Prince Guneratnam is gone & we will have a new SP (Senior Pastor).

To all TTG bloggers,

I suggest that all of us should henceforth refer to him as PG (his rightful initials) & not as SP (to be fair to the next SP) as we are seeing the beginning of the end of PG's reign at CC.

I salute Dr Lum for his boldness in standing up for the Lord & for TTG (Truth, Transparency & good Governance) at CC.

In fact, I had asked Dr Lum to step down 2 Sundays ago & to my delight, he had told me that he was going to do so & I had been praying for such an action from him. Praise God for prayers answered!

Encouraged by Dr Lum's reply of 2 weeks ago, I have personally asked SL & HJK to step down last Sunday. I pray that they will fear God more than they fear the man (PG) & step down soon.

I am now addressing this comment to the other Deacons (BF, ER, PT & PW), do the right thing in God's sight - STEP DOWN now!

I suggest that all TTG bloggers should tell the 6 Deacons, directly & personally, to step down now.

As for the APs who fear God more than they fear the man (PG), may I be bold enough to suggest that CT set up a fund (from our tithes) to support all such APs who are prepared to step down in protest of PG's misdeeds & stand up for God & TTG at CC?

What say you TTG bloggers out there? Do I hear an aye from each & everyone of you?

Perhaps, we can even take this a step futher & extend our offer to the CC staff. Let it be known that I, on behalf of the TTG at CC, has drawn a line at CC & all the 6 Deacons, APs & staff should now decide whether they choose to stand with PG or with the TTG at CC. As for me & my family, I have chosen to stand with the one & only God, Jesus, (not like PG who has chosen mammon).

I am posting this comment under my own name & not under any moniker as I am doing so in support of TTG at CC which may come with a price as this action is biblical, 'cos I am standing up for Jesus & others may mock me. If He is for us who can stand against us?

While I respect that some of you, TTG bloggers, may not have my conviction & may still choose to comment under your chosen moniker, I would suggest that none of you will use "Anonymous" henceforth as it confuses the rest of us. Why not be like Anon 2.25? Call yourself Anon XXX or Anon YYY if you can't think of a better moniker; at least this way, we can recognise you & follow your flow of thought & argument. On behalf of all other Anti-Anonymouses, I call upon CT to ban the use of Anonymous as a moniker on this blog (no offence meant to anyone).

In closing, I pray that may God bless all of you, Concerned Calvarites, by bringing this mess at CC to a swift end, perhaps before Christmas lest someone, I know of, may carry out his 2009 New Year resolution of bringing this mess to the authorities - I fear the consequences of that for all AG churches, as well as all the other churches in Malaysia. O God, if it is Your will that this matter be resolved within the church than may You bless all of us with a wonderful Christmas present as we begin our post PG era at CC in the New Year but, Lord, if it is Your will that this mess be brought to the authorities perhaps to cleanse some other churches as well, so be it. Let Your will be done in all this mess at CC, O Lord, & not mine. Amen!; November 22, 2008 at 11:32 AM
Ah Beng said...: Can CT do an interview with Dr Lum so that we can have the inside story of why he step down or else SP will tell his distorted (half truths &/or lies) story of Dr Lum's resignation?; November 22, 2008 at 11:35 AM
Stay and Persevere said...: Dr Vijay,
How right you are to advice the present CC members not to leave the church. We all have to remain on as members of CC, although we should visit other churches for spiritual food when we feel the need to. We have to stay as members bcos we love CC, and wish to play our part to put things right. Leaving the church would be like abandoning the ship (or church) which each of us helped built, even if only in a small way. When the time comes our vote is very important.

In His love.; November 22, 2008 at 11:36 AM
Siew Chyuan said...: Lest I be accused of splitting CC by drawing the "line" in my comment at 11.32am, let me remind everyone that CC was split when PG took that redundant vote at the AGM on the Extended Ministries' (EM) A/cs despite the church Auditor's public admission he had been wrong to listen to PG over the years & that his Technical Director at Pricewaterhouse Coopers (PwC) had advised Bro. Tuck Hing (the church auditor) that the EM A/cs should be presented at the AGM.

So to all Concerned Calvarites out there & to the National Christian Organisations (AG Council, NECF, CCM, AG International, etc), let's all stand up united for Truth, Transparency & good Governance (TTG) & for God in order to shame the devil & send PG out of His House (for PG has over the years liken CC to his, PG's, house).

Will you be on my side of the line (which is God's side as He is a god of Truth) or will you be on his (PG's) side? Let there not be any fence sitters as they will have to answer to Him on That Day. Choose wisely, Choose Truth. Vote wisely, Vote for God & the Truth at CC.

See you in the post PG era in 2009. May God bless all of you & your loved ones & wishing all of you a Blessed Christmas.; November 22, 2008 at 11:53 AM
Clare said...: To be fair to Dr Lum and BOD, I personally think that should any of them resign, they could have their own reasons to do so, I appeal to all, please do not speculate the reasons, but let the deacon themselves, in their own time, and God's timing come forward to explain and clarify themselves.

None of us including any TTG or concerned calvarite should claim that its their effort to persuade. Lets all keep our deacon in prayer and lending them our support for what is right and rebuke what is wrong.; November 22, 2008 at 12:23 PM
KC said...: Dear Clare

Dr Lum HAS told me and several TTG members the reasons why he is resigning. He is definitely on the side of Truth and Transparency. CalvaryToday's understanding and comments ARE in line with what Dr Lum has told us. The speculations in the comments by bloggers on Dr Lum's reasons for resigning are, thus far, NOT out of line but consistent with what he has told me.

I am in the midst of arranging an interview for CalvaryToday webmaster with Dr Lum. But let us give Dr Lum the freedom and time to decide when that interview will be.; November 22, 2008 at 12:53 PM
See What Happens said...: Dont ask the rest of the BOD to step down.

Let them stay on and suffer the consequences and embarrassment.; November 22, 2008 at 1:38 PM
seventy times seven said...: DEAR PRINCE GUNERATNAM, PETRINA, PAM, CHRIS, JIM, AMELIA, PETER ONG, REMAINING DEACONS,

PLEASE REPENT.
PLEASE BRING BACK THE MONEY.
PLEASE STEP DOWN, FOR SPIRITUAL REHABILITATION.

WE WISH TO OBEY OUR LORD JESUS AND FORGIVE YOU BUT YOU HAVE GOT TO HELP US. PLEASE!

God bless you, Dr. Lum, for REFUSING to be part of that wilfully sinful body of deacons.

I'm all for Siew Chuan's proposal: to set up a fund from our tithes to support the associate pastors who are prepared to step down in protest of PG's misdeeds and stand up for God's TTG at CC.; November 22, 2008 at 1:42 PM
EY said...: To Siew Chyuan

It is an aye from me.

"As for the APs who fear God more than they fear the man (PG), may I be bold enough to suggest that CT set up a fund (from our tithes) to support all such APs who are prepared to step down in protest of PG's misdeeds & stand up for God & TTG at CC?"; November 22, 2008 at 1:47 PM
Bamboo Conspiracy said...: SHOULD THE POST PG CHURCH BE DOMINATED BY A GROUP OF SPIRITUAL ELDERS OR A ONE MAN SENIOR PASTOR?

Hi Siew Chyuan

Very good point indeed. Your is the best suggestion and henceforth let us all refer as the Post PG Era!

However, just one point - does the post PG Calvary church really need a Senior Pastor? Of course the church members should decide on this but make sure that it is a group of dedicated elders and not a SP who has ultimate control over the church.

As I already discussed this issue earlier - see Blog to Mr. F.

In the NT Churches, it was a group of elders who were the overseers of the church. The one-man ministry is foreign to the NT church. If fact there are Christian researchers like Dr. Ralph Neighbour, Dr. Graydon Snyder, Dave Norrington and others who support the view that the modern day pastoral office has stolen the individual Christian’s right to function as a full member of the Christ’s body. The one-man pastoral office has robed the teaching of 1 Corinthians 12-14 that every member has both the right and the privilege to minister in a church meeting. It has voided the message of 1 Peter 2that every brother and sister is a functioning priest.

Christian researcher George Barna has written that based on his research and personal testimonies, most one-man ministers cannot stay in their office without being corrupted on some level. The power-politics endemic to the office is a huge problem that isolates many of them and poisons them from the congregation.

Based on my observation of events in a number of churches in Malaysia, including Calvary Church, I would suggest that the post PG Era Calvary Church should never be given to a one-man ministry. Instead, the congregation should elect a group of elders based on biblical principles who will oversee the operations of the church. (Please don’t call them BOD!).

The elected ones must be those who have a proven track record of the witness of God in their lives. These men and women must be God fearing and spiritual with a testimony of God in their lives. They will become the teachers, the prophets, the apostles, the evangelists and the shepherds in the church of Jesus Christ. It should consist of people who stand for TTG.

Only the Holy Spirit can guide you to those He has elected to the various offices. The elders can take turn to minister in Calvary Church according to their gifting. There is no necessity for a one-man minister. The group of elders can select those whom the Lord has elected for the various ministries in Calvary Church.

In the NT, church planters deliberately left so that the church could function under the headship of Christ. This is because, if the church planter stayed in a church, the members naturally look to him to lead and this hinders the principle of each member being a royal priesthood. The pattern throughout the entire NT is that church planters (apostolic workers) always left the church after having laid the foundation.

Since, Christ has risen; we the Christians have become the temple of God. It is for that reason that the NT always reserves the world church (ecclesia) for the people of God. For the first three centuries, the early Christians did not have any special building nor were they led by a one-man pastoral office. The NT church under the headship of Christ means that He may speak through every member of the body in the church by using the various gifts and ministries granted by the Spirit (1 Cor 12).

Please note that these are suggestions only. ONLY the Holy Spirit can guide you. God has a plan for Calvary Church - your duty is to find His plan and obey Him.

For more details see
•The Normal Christian Life by Watchman Nee.
•Reclaiming God’s Original Intent for the Church – Wes Roberts & Glen Marshall
•Exploring the root of Church Practices – Frank Viola & George Barna

Vijay; November 22, 2008 at 4:41 PM
Bamboo Conspiracy said...: FEED MY PEOPLE

Dear Stay and Persevere

You have a heart for the congregation. Now find ways to feed those who choose to stay and persevere. Please discuss with the TTG.

The KEY ISSUE now is how to feed the present congregation - otherwise they may want to leave. There is nothing wrong if the congregation seek food elsewhere but prayerfully it is only temporary and until the present PG Era is over.

They must be given spiritual food especially if this saga drags on. May I suggest that the TTG develop a separate Website/portal to post good audio sermons and articles that the congregation can refer to for spiritual nourishment. I am sure there are good leaders within Calvary Church who can glean or prepare good sermons/articles and post them in the website. Moreover, there are excellent sermons in the Internet and they may be downloaded and posted in the TTG Website (with permission of course!)

Build the TGG WEBSITE and they will come!

HOWEVER, IT MUST BE MODERATED. EVERY AUDIO SERMON OR ARTICLE POSTED MUST BE VETTED FOR ITS CONTENT AND BIBLICAL SOUNDNESS.

It should cover various topics such as worship, prayer, discipleship, evangelism, etc. The TTG leaders can moderate and ensure the quality of the sermons posted in the website.

Another, option is for a MONTHLY ‘TOWNHALL’ meeting at hotels or house churches where you can invite godly Malaysian leaders, pastors and ministers to preach in the ‘townhall’. In fact, perhaps the time is appropriate for you godly TTG leaders to re-network with the other church leaders in Malaysia and request whether they will allow some of their good audio sermons/articles to be posted in the TTG Website (not the Blog!).

The invitation to speak is to allow a door of communication to be openned. You have taken the first step to invite. Of course, if they are not willing to response – that is another story!
You may test the waters and see how the other leaders react.

The present Cell Group meetings should continue and perhaps the TTG leaders can contribute good articles etc to feed the sheep. You can invite cell leaders or pastors of other churches to minister in the cell group with the permission of the respective churches. These are ways to build bridges with other CHristians and provide a venue for other churches to come to the help of Calvary Church. This is real NT COMMUNITY CHRISTAIN LIVING. When one body suffers, others suffer along and come to its aid. Of course - we hope they come!

These are only suggestions how best we can feed the present congregation who want real manna!

Vijay; November 22, 2008 at 5:11 PM
Anonymous said...: Dr Lum,

You deserve our praise for demonstrating moral courage to stand up for Truth, Transparency and Good Governance!

Praise God for sending people like Dr Lum to encourage so many bloggers.

PraiseHim; November 22, 2008 at 5:22 PM
Anon 2.25 said...: Dear Dr Lum,

I wish to salute you for your courageous act of resigning from the Deacons Board. I know it was not an altogether easy decision to make; perhaps it may even be a personally painful decision. But you have acted on your conscience, and I thank the Lord for you. I urge everyone to pray that the Lord will minister His boundless grace to you and loved ones, especially during the next few days. May the Lord protect your from the attacks of the Evil One.

Dear Dr Vijay, as much as I respect your credentials as a researcher, and your expressed and honorable intent to help bring healing and reconcilation, I have to disagree with you in several points in your most recent posts.

You asked, "SHOULD THE POST PG CHURCH BE DOMINATED BY A GROUP OF SPIRITUAL ELDERS OR A ONE MAN SENIOR PASTOR?" My short answer, "There ought to be no domination whatsover, whether by a "one-man" type or "group of elders" leadership. Leaders ought to be servants, period.

I do not wish to engage in a protracted debate on the type of leadership CC ought to have. But for you to imply that the NT advocates one type of leadership as biblical to the exclusion of other types is misleading.

What CC, and every other church needs, are godly leaders, who fear God and love the God's flock (not his/or their flock, with sacrificial love. And the are many A/G churches with godly SPs. You do these faithful men and women of God a grave disservice.

I do note that you ended your post with a caveat that these are just suggestions, and that the Holy Spirit should lead us. I concur heartily.

Though I disagree with you, I appreciate you and your desire to help us. God bless you my brother.; November 22, 2008 at 5:39 PM
Discernment Needed said...: I am sorry but I think Vijay's various "opinion" and "suggestion" is suspect from the viewpoint of what is his actual intention besides the Truth, Transparency & Governance badge. Somehow I feel he thinks that he is the "saviour" of the Malaysian churches. By the way could Vijay tell us more about yourself? For example, where does he worhsip, to whom is he accountable to, what is his background, etc... As to the articles and references he points us to (which incidentally I am sure many if not all of you have not heard of before, except of Watchman Nee) please take some effort to check them out as discerning Christians. God Bless!; November 22, 2008 at 5:41 PM
Anon 2.25 said...: My spouse brought this to my attention. By "Evil One" I am refering to the Devil, Satan, and not to any human person. Deepest apologies for any offense caused.; November 22, 2008 at 5:50 PM
Historian said...: My dear Anon 2:25,

I think you have misunderstood Dr. Vijay. Your statement (below), too, shows a gross misunderstanding, caused by ignorance, on your part:

"You asked, "SHOULD THE POST PG CHURCH BE DOMINATED BY A GROUP OF SPIRITUAL ELDERS OR A ONE MAN SENIOR PASTOR?" My short answer, "There ought to be no domination whatsover, whether by a "one-man" type or "group of elders" leadership. Leaders ought to be servants, period."

Do you not know that the A/G's present system of spiritual leadership has a lot of loopholes for spiritual abuse? Whether you like to admit it or not, senior pastors of the A/G do dominate their churches.....it's a flaw in the system that allows such domination even though everybody knows, in theory, that pastors are meant to be servants! Look at the history of Pentecostalism. Look at the history of A/G in the U.S., past & present.But you don't really need to look far....just look at CC! And what's worse, the A/G General Council has no real power to intervene in this present mess! The flaw is in the system...there must be a change in the system, in order to protect the next generation from a repeat of what has happened in CC today.

Berita Calvary has a very good article on Spiritual Abuse...please take time to read it, before insulting someone who has good intentions to help us through this difficult time.; November 22, 2008 at 8:04 PM
very concern said...: I really agreed with Anon 2:25 and Discernment needed. Let us not jump into conclusion , what bro vijay suggested is something like what the brethen church is doing. let becareful with our suggesting regarding overall the church function. Let seek God and godly advise from Godly minister before even giving any suggestion on how to manage or run the church. Very Dangerous.

Very Concern; November 22, 2008 at 8:05 PM
Anonymous said...: The Bible has clearly said that what good for a man/woman to lose his/her soul if he/she knows what will happen the day when they stand in eyes of the God and hear Him says, what have all of you done in my church of Jesus Christ? Is there conscience in every believers of Christ whom he had called and saved in His everlasting LOVE?

Didn't God gave the warning in the Book of Revelation about the seven churches whom He took John's spirit to Heaven. What happened to Calvary Church is the signs of end times as we are living in the era of Jesus returning soon not the era of Prince Guneratnam!

Yes, he & his family have gone too far about dollars and cents which indeed had pricked into most of calvarites hearts! But ain't you all are participating the silent person named by "LUCIFER" whom the great influencing that causes trouble in Jesus' kingdom...read Ephesians 6:12!

Do you remember what Apostle Paul said in I Corinthians 6:12, "Everything is permissible for me-but not everything is BENEFICIAL. Everything is permissible for me but I will not be MASTERED by anything".

So, be wise as Apostle Paul and don't use human wisdom (and says, God told me this and that...must be cautions!)

Prince Guneratnam service background...He gave his entired life to serve God (Age 18). Go back to look at his tender service and what is he now is God who blessed him. Remember, King David who has committed adultery with the woman whom he saw at the roof top...bang...he fell...right! But God did not discarded him. He has to face his consequences that is his son bore by the woman is dead! This show that God knows best when He will intervene. Humans are always very impatience, now must react and settle it quickly. No, no, no...your times and ways, is not God's ideas! You all must see the whole pictures of Prince Guneratnam in the eyes of God not yours!

Before throwing stones at Prince Guneratnam...stop and think through as what Jesus told the crowd, if you have not sinned then you may crucify her, the sinner! Strong words but worthwhile because the crowd turned away.

In conclusion, Calvary Church does not belongs to YOU but God, the builder in Christ Jesus whom is the firm foundation through His works of His Holy Spirit!

From Irene Yong
Ex-Staff; November 22, 2008 at 10:38 PM
the truth is out there said...: I respect the stand taken by Dr Lum.

I remember he had used these words before "......I am troubled in my spirit."

Needless to say, the stand he has taken has put the leaders in the church to shame!!!; November 22, 2008 at 11:19 PM
Discernment Needed said...: Look carefully at what Vijay is suggesting - instead of asking all concern members to try their best, with God's help of course, to reform the church (from within), to seek the unity of the Body and reconciliation, he is infact suggestion things which will breakup the church; cause disunity within the Body of Jesus and make many Christians stumble. This is God's will?; November 22, 2008 at 11:29 PM
Sharon said...: Church cannot split if our current leadership is of sound mind and of sound leadership quality. Somehow, something had gone wrong 10 years or so ago. I had been in calvary for almost 25 years, it was fine those early days. Hence, I dont think its fair to blame who and who for breaking up the church but rather its the leadership.

Why not quiet down in your spirit and allow God to show each of us, what is the actual caused? May the Lord intervene and minister to you and me! I sincerely hope each one of us should be a part of this holy ground to stand up for truth and good governance.

Any leader who resign from any postion in calvary church is of utter concern to us, there must be something that is not right in the affairs of the leadership or chairman or Senior pastor.

My heart grieve for this piece of news. It is indeed very difficult and painful to witness such leadership crisis in calvary at the moment.; November 23, 2008 at 12:04 AM
Anon 2.25 said...: Dear Historian,

I do not think I have insulted, at least not intentionally, Dr Vijay. If Dr Vijay felt offended, I apologize; that's not my intention.

What I seem to hear Dr Vijay say is that a significant key to solving CC's troubles is in the leadership of elders. I disagree with him respectfully.

I believe that there are both strengths and weaknesses in any system of church leadership. Hypothetically, a group of arrogant and ambitious group of elders can cripple any church with protracted power struggles as well.

After all, Jesus was condemned to death by an "ungodly" group of elders, scribes and chief priests -- 70 men which made up the Jewish Sanhedrin.

If we take the long view of church history, we see leadership abuses in almost every system of church government.

I believe a more important criteria is in the spiritual condition of our leaders: are they godly, humble, loving? do they have a servant spirit and a shepherd heart? are they men and women full of the Spirit (fruit as well as gifts) and wisdom?

I also believe that a strong lay leadership of godly deacons is important to provide the proper check and balance within the present CC system.

However, as I said earlier, I do not wish to engage in a protracted debate on the type of church government the CC should have. I don't think this is the time and place for it.

Peace and Blessings.; November 23, 2008 at 12:15 AM
Discernment Needed said...: I agree with Sharon but what I am trying to point out is that our efforts must be towards reconciliation and not what Vijay is suggesting - forming a "church" within the church. No, infact, more than that, to try to get others (from other churches) to "come in" to to support this "church" with the church. Again I ask - you really think this is God's will?; November 23, 2008 at 12:15 AM
SM said...: Irene Yong said CC does not belong to us but God. Think all of us agree with this but all of us blogging here are puzzled why then SP has the right to ask us and all those who are unhappy with him to leave. You mean SP is God? Oh my, all the while I thought he was a mere human....

To Discernment Needed. Vijay cannot break up our church coz our church is already broken. Broken, hurt and disunited by SP and his wrong-doings and now by his silence.; November 23, 2008 at 12:17 AM
Discernment Needed said...: Then what he should do is to encourage reconciliation and not suggest actions which will hasten or push the church towards its ultimate breakup. We have problems - that is a given. Many of the causes of the problems we are facing arise from weaknesses in the church leadership - that is also a fair statement. But our efforts are surely to reconcile and rehabilitate and not the reverse. Appears to me that Vijay is more keen for Calvary Church to break up than for healing and reconciliation to take place and as I have said earlier, for reasons best known to him. Good night!; November 23, 2008 at 12:34 AM
Sharon said...: Frankly 'Discernment needed', If PG chose to carry on with 'the brokenness' to continue to lead in calvary, he is definitely not wise, while he is still given opportunity to make good, why not retire early? afterall, he is already 60+.

We as worshipper may not continue with him, eventhough, you may thin k that things seemed OK. If any leader here allow the church to split, PG is responsible. Its time he should be the one together with BOD to call for reconciliation, repentance, healing, not anyone else as you suggested.

After which, we prefer him to quit for his good and family.; November 23, 2008 at 1:06 AM
Anonymous said...: Vijay can you respond to
Discernment Needed who said...

"I am sorry but I think Vijay's various "opinion" and "suggestion" is suspect from the viewpoint of what is his actual intention besides the Truth, Transparency & Governance badge. Somehow I feel he thinks that he is the "saviour" of the Malaysian churches. By the way could Vijay tell us more about yourself? For example, where does he worhsip, to whom is he accountable to, what is his background, etc... . As to the articles and references he points us to (which incidentally I am sure many if not all of you have not heard of before, except of Watchman Nee) please take some effort to check them out as discerning Christians. God Bless!"

Yes. Especially since you claimed you are not a CALVARITE, can you provide some details such as
where you worship, to whom you are accountable to, what is your background ( your seminary or theological studies ), etc.... I trust you understand our request.

Until then can you please refrain from providing guidance and advice about our post PG era.
We don't want to jump from the frying pan to the fires of hell so to speak.

In His Grace,

I'm Anon Discernment Needed No. 2; November 23, 2008 at 1:55 AM
Oldie said...: To Anon discernment Needed No. 2. Please sign in as that instead of "Anonymous". Very confusing as we had to finished reading before we know who you are. As mentioned before all "Anonyymous" do sign in as "Anon 2" or "Anon 3.3".

To those who think suggestions made re how to run the church. Stop for a minute and do not go on and on to refute and condemn.

First - they are just suggestions. We do not have to follow them.
Second - It is not for the TTG group or anyone else to organise the church.
Third - God is in control and he will direct.

Today's Every Day with Jesus" said:
"In the midst of spiritual warfare which we are now engaged You (God) is truly my Jehovah Nissi (The Lord is our Banner". Let this be our prayer always.

So everyone - cool down and do not shoot down suggestions. It is knowledgable info but where we go is for the Lord to decide

Let us not go into arguments that will not lead us any where but focus on real issues.; November 23, 2008 at 7:48 AM
hm said...: Dear TTG supporters,
I thank you for your support and for standing alongside us as we continue to bear the burden for truth and righteousness. I empathize with your feelings of indignation, frustration, hurt and perhaps even hopelessness reflected sometimes in not-so-appropriate comments on the blog. However, as we sense the crescendo arising we must be more and more conscious of the need to remain Christlike. We must not allow our values, motivation and behaviour to cease reflecting the love and character of Jesus. We must preserve our dignity, our self respect as well as respect for others and continue to look at others through the eyes of Jesus. Hate the sin not the sinner. Yet we must be bold and courageous to persevere in what we know the Lord has asked us to do; to bring back truth and righteousness to Calvary Church. The core members of the TTG have reminded Calvary Today of the need to cull comments which are deemed unacceptable or inappropriate including name calling and personal attacks as well as "scolding-prayers". References to the children and in-laws are completely unacceptable. We too have children. In so doing we shall enhance the discussion on the real issues. The current discussion on the post PG era is controversial but stimulating.

Today is the Lord ’s Day. Let’s be circumspect and reflect on our own walk with Jesus. Let even our blogging and comments be as worship unto Him. Let Jesus find them pleasing and acceptable. Let us be blameless even as we seek for truth and righteousness.

With His love and blessings,
Hong Meng; November 23, 2008 at 8:30 AM
Anti-Anonymous said...: If anyone sign off as Anonymous in future, please do not respond to them.

They dont even have the 'guts' to use any other name, so how much substance are there in their comments.

They are there to confuse people and also using this blog to talk nonsense.

Please dont bother about them.; November 23, 2008 at 9:18 AM
Anonymous said...: hm...you started the s... so you eat the s....; November 23, 2008 at 9:21 AM
Winslow said...: Good morning to all,

I appeal to you as you start the Lord's Day with a renewed determination to respect others when you blog. You may disagree with the views of others, as one man's meat is another's poison. We must agree to disagree, and respect other views.

Yes, Hong Meng is right. It's important for us to maintain proper decorum at all times when we put forth our proposals, suggestions and comments.

I suggest the blogmaster delete comments where there are name-calling, cursing, foul language, etc.

Let us not sin when we comment and give suggestions. Please maintain your Christian witness.

Anonymous at 9.21am, Hong Meng did not start all this. It has been brewing all these years, and the can of worms, so to say, is being slowly opened.

Please don't start the Lord's Day with such harsh words. Maintain proper decorum.

Yes, today's is the Lord's Day. Let us continue to uphold the leadership, especially SP and BOD, in prayer. Let's seek God's direction in resolving the impasse facing us. If we love the Church, we must ask for cleansing and restoration, and this include ourselves too.

Have in blessed day in the Lord,
Winslow.; November 23, 2008 at 9:47 AM
Tan said...: Yes, the blog remain a public domain, no matter how much emphasis anyone trying to correct the wrong and to wrong the right with regards to its existence; its status remain. While I agree with Hong Meng's call for the appropriatness of comments, let us all too discern and ask the Lord to reveal, there is time to rebuke appropriatly; there is time to praise! Nevertheless, I have always been disagreeable with christian who use abusive words and who became personal either positively or negatively.

May I humbly request non calvarites who bumped into this blog to 'accept' its existence, without continuous arguement of its existence and usefulness, it hurts the christian in calvary who were trying their very best using various approach to voice their grievances with regards to the current affairs in calvary church without much postive response from calvary church's Board and its current senior pastor. The blog was set up for a a reason, many in calvary church are happy to receive information through this column and to keep themselves updated with regards to the current issues. No matter how much the concerned leaders in the church try to do, it was always deemed illegal and wrong from PG and his board. Therefore, you saw the birthed of Calvarytoday.

I am sadden my certain parties who deemed the blog unchristian, so be it if there are certain individual( especially the christian body in Malaysia) who had chosen to remain silence and remain "laissez-faire"; November 23, 2008 at 10:03 AM
Bamboo Conspiracy said...: Dear Anonymous

As requested I will address the questions raised by "Discernment Needed". However, I hope you understand that it would be foolish for me to give every detail here, as this is a blog. I request those who wish details to contact me via my e-mail at vijay.newdawn@gmail.com and I would be delighted to meet up with in person and exchange views - this way we all can learn from each other and be transparent.

I would equally appreciate, in fairness; all who request that a blogger be transparent are equally transparent. It is only appropriate they disclose their full name, primary association and e-mail address. I also appreciate if you can cite references so that I may cross check with your opinion for research purposes. I have been transparent from the beginning.

Please note I have meet with some members of the TTG but am unable to disclose further as we have agreed that I remain an outsider and write from the point of a Christian researcher - hence my participation in this blog. These are all my views and not necessarily of the NECF or TTG.

As a Christian researcher, the points I raise in the Blogs are issues and concerns other bloggers have raised such as:

1. What can the church do to feed its members, as it appears some members are planning to leave Calvary because they are not getting the spiritual food they need from the pulpit.

2. There are bloggers that are clearly not in support of the people associated with TTG. Clearly, the TTG represented the minority and my wife and I decided to stand with them even though we are not from Calvary because we agree with their course - not that I think myself as the sole crusader for TTG in Malaysia. In fact, I have suggested that the NECF/AOG take it as their theme for 2009.

All I am saying is my two sens worth and suggestions to stimulate thoughts and consider various options. It is to create awareness and allow the reader to ponder the issue in detail. They are not final and as I said, it is left to the members to discern the best course of action. For example, the suggestion to copyright the blog was taken up and others bypassed. What I write are mere suggestions based on my various readings and communication with friends within and without Malaysia - they are not cast in stone.

The very fact that some of my blogs have coursed bloggers to raise issues on my suggestion is the point I have getting at - to create awareness and to allow the bloggers to share their opinions and allow the members to consider the best course of action for Calvary.

As for background information, I have ready provided some previously but I will add further as requested.

Profession: Banking & Management Consultant

Qualification: BBS(Hons)(UK), MSc, PhD/DBA Banking(Aus), D Min Christian Leadership (USA), CFA (USA).

Denomination: Pentecostal

Concern: Spiritual Formation, Christ in Us the Hope of Glory and Truth, Transparency & Governance in all Malaysian churches.

Presently with NECF Research Commission and Norman Grubb Ministry USA.

I take your suggestion and I shall refrain from providing guidance and advice about Calvary post PG era etc. I will continue to do what I can behind the scene.

If any of my suggestions has offended any blogger, I sincerely apologise and humbly request your forgiveness. Appreciate you point out my errors by writing to my e-mail so that I may learn from you and improve my research.

Vijay
vijay.newdawn@gmail.com
www.normangrubb.com; November 23, 2008 at 10:10 AM
Siew Chyuan said...: Out of the first 20 comments posted from 4.17am to 9.10am yesterday, only the following 4 were not under "Anonymous":-
1. Anti-Anonymous at 6.57am,
2. Simpleman at 8.00am,
3. Call to rest of BOD at 9.01am,
4. Ah Beng No. 2 at 9.10am.

Out of the 16 comments posted under "Anonymous", only the following 3 did not make fun of PG's family name (which so happen to have the name of a rodent in it):-
1. Anonymous at 6.25am,
2. Anonymous at 7.17am,
3. Anonymous at 7.55am.

Of the other 13 comments, Anonymous at 7.00am had punned on PG's initials (by using the word "PigGing").

Like Hong Meng & Winslow, I call on CT to delete all these 13 comments (& such other similar comments elsewhere on CT) lest the reading of such name calling may stumble others, as well as may cause others not to read CT anymore.

To the 13 (or less) commenters concerned, be assured that you are still loved by all of us & we forgive you for your moment of "madness" as I confess that it does happen to all of us at times. However, in our fight for TTG at CC, we must always remember that it is not our battle but His. As such, we need to maintain our credibility & integrity as we cannot afford to lose this battle on His behalf, we are answerable to Him.

Let's all stay focus on the issues as we press on to revive TTG at CC.

Btw, Anonymous at 9.21am this morning, you are definitely out of line as you have obviously not adhere to the footnote under "Purpose of the Blog" which has stated that "In your comments and feedback, please refrain fron using hateful, malicious or vulgar words. Always be respectful of one another." Thus, I call upon CT to delete your comment, as well as all other similar comments, which run foul of that footnote, as & when they appear on CT.

Remember CT is a Christian blog set up by Concerned Calvarites for Concerned Calvarites to keep abreast of the events at CC. As non-Calvarites (such as pre-believers & other church goers) & new believers all over the world, may be, intentionally or unintentionally, reading CT, all of us (Concerned Calvarites) must maintain our decorum no matter how heated up we may be; always abide by the "rules" of this blog.

Have a pleasant day & may the Lord bless you in all you do today & in the week ahead. Shalom!; November 23, 2008 at 1:07 PM
True Story said...: Dear Dr. Lum,

You have made a stand for righteouness. May the Lord bless you & your dear wife, and your lovely children, and protect you all from the repercussions of your righteous act.

May the rest of the BOD follow your brave and humble example, and also choose to make their stand for truth, transparency & accountability, to fear God and not man, to obey God rather than obey man. Then, this matter will be quickly resolved and justice will triumph once again, and light shall break-through the darkness.; November 23, 2008 at 2:25 PM
Peers who grown up with Pam n Jim said...: Dear son and daughter of current senior pastor and wife

I am sure both of you had grown up and served in calvary for 40 to 45 years now. When church affairs are in deep trouble, both of you being middle age adult, with kids; the least I expect is to see that both of you remain quiet! To me, as a parent, what I know is my children do correct me and at times confronted me and talk things out..Hope you do that to your parents too.

I am rather surprised, both of you also had been serving in the various leadership position in the church, but how come neither of you even bother to approach brother HM, or Winslow or someother calvarites to seek some advice and try in your ability to help reconciliate?

To all bloggers, please do not reprimand me, logically speaking, this should be the approach, both Pam and Jim are no longer small kids having to be protected and defended by their parents, they need to live their own lives, therefore, dont tell me that its not fair for me to involve the children.. if both of them, beleive in the future of calvary church, they should come forward to seek the truth for calvary church..likewise, TTG supporters expect everyone in calvary to support truth too, be they young or old, same priciples shall apply..Both Jim and Pam should come forward to expose and tell the truth. The time is now, like someone said, Jesus is coming, why are you both still waiting?; November 23, 2008 at 3:07 PM
Clare said...: Dear KC
Thank you for your reply, thank God for your effort and concern for our beloved church. I support what you will be doing and I truly appreciate both you and Dr Lum for all your sacrifices. My
prayer with both you and family.; November 23, 2008 at 3:12 PM
The Sheep said...: Dear CT administrators,

I fully agree with Siew Chyuan suggestion. As a concern Calvarite I am a regular reader of CT the hope of reading useful comments (such as Dr Vijay's and some others) on how to make the situation better with minimal hurts.

Unfortunately, the blog has been use as site for exchange of hate and anger and bickering, contributing none at all to the CT objective.(In a "random assessment" base on Siew Chyuan's finding its about 65% of site being "misused")

It not only adds up and lenghten the linked page leaving most of us frustrated having to scroll up and down or all the way down avoiding the bickering comments, to reach to useful postive or constructive comments.

Perhaps Siew Chyuan suggestion that the CT administrator delete the uncall for comments leaving reasons for deletion will not only only maintain the purpose of the blog on to be on track but also avoid leaving a negative impression to a non christian reader.

To be fair and respectful to the comments writers,we could leave comments such as: Comments deleted:Inapropirate language or violate rules of the blog. or Comments deleted: Verbal abuse (or whatever the reason that may deem inappropriate)

This is only a suggestion with the hope of hateful contents "clean up"

Let us be a good testimony even in times or place like this.

The Sheep; November 23, 2008 at 3:30 PM
Concerned Reader said...: To: the sheep

It is not fair to ask the blog administrator to give every reason for deleting some comment, should the adminstrator go evaluate every reason to delete some 'unpleasant' comment? No, the adminstrator is not 24 hrs blogger and full time.

It is alright to delete comments that is deemed not 'pleasant' by the administrator, which is good enough. Those who wants their comments to be published and to remain, please adhere to the rules of this blog, again, I am not the adminstrator, but its my opinion.; November 23, 2008 at 3:48 PM
please grow up said...: I refer to the comment by anonymous at 9.21am. I am sure hm is matured enough to ignore him.

He is immature, possibly mentally deranged to post such vulgar remarks.

I will not respond even if he rebukes me because I believe bloggers on both sides on the divide will find his comment ditasteful. We got better things to do.; November 23, 2008 at 3:55 PM
Anon 2.25 said...: Dear Brothers Hong Meng, Winslow, Siew Chyuan, KC and everyone of the same mind and hearts,

I thank and appreciate you for your words of wisdom today. I have always considered you, my brothers, as men of integrity, wisdom, and love. I have more to say, but sometimes less is better than more (“When words are many, transgression is not lacking, but whoever restrains his lips is prudent.” Proverbs 10:19). My spouse keeps reminding me to exercise more self-restraint.

I do want to say that inspite of my desire of preserve a measure of anonymity, I do want to be accountable for the words I write. I appreciate those who have challenged me for some of my views, even those with strong words. I believe we can learn from those with whom we disagree (“Iron sharpens iron, and one man sharpens another.” Proverbs 27:17).

To those who still wish that these unpleasant things in CC should not be brought up in the open as expressed by someone this morning, though he said it rather unkindly, I proffer this last saying, “Better is open rebuke than hidden love. Faithful are the wounds of a friend; profuse are the kisses of an enemy” (Proverbs 27:5-6).

Blessins and Peace to all.

P.S. I hope I offend no one with the citation of these scriptures. I am sure most of these are already familiar to you. We all, yours truly included, need to be reminded of them once in a while.; November 23, 2008 at 4:22 PM
CALVARY TODAY said...: Following the call by TTG members, we have deleted some comments which we deem as inappropriate or malicious. We have put up a notice to that effect on the side banner.

Regarding a suggestion to state a reason for our deletion of a comment, we wish to advise that the system which is hosted by Google does not provide an option for that. Likewise, it does not provide an option to remove the "Anonymous" tag in the "Comments" section.

Therefore, we urge all readers to comment responsibly and use a pseudonym rather than "Anonymous" if you so wish to remain unidentified.; November 23, 2008 at 5:08 PM
Truth Prevails said...: I respect Dr. Lum for his brave decision to call it quits. He has always been that 'lone ranger' in the BOD to oppose SP's selfish, covetuous schemes but because he was 'just one' out of seven, he had been constantly resisted & over-ruled & even persecuted by them to the extent of being 'left out' of emergency BOD meetings! How ridiculous that the BOD should resort to such childish means to suppress the truth as well as to prevent the truth from being leaked out! This really questions the spiritual maturity of the 6 BOD! Are they in it for the money, too? Do they have no morals? Or are they also victims of SP's mind-control?

I remember it was only Dr. Lum who protested that 'flaming announcement' by the Church accusing TTG & supporters of spreading malicious allegations... only Dr. Lum had the guts and the godly conscience to refuse to be a partaker of such lies by SP & [some] APs.

I respect you highly, Dr. Lum. Your actions reveal your heart for God, for Truth and Transparency - it is you, Dr. Lum, who truly love Calvary Church, and apparently NOT the the other 6 BOD - they love SP & SAP to the extent of being willing to cover up for their lies & their sins.

Maybe Dr. Lim's resignation letter may be made public, for all to see? This is just a suggestion.; November 23, 2008 at 6:29 PM
Truth Prevails said...: Sorry, typo error...! :) I meant "... Dr. LUM's resignation letter be made public, & be posted on the blog, for all to see & appreciate" ?

However, it's just a suggestion..!; November 23, 2008 at 6:36 PM
Prayer/ Repentance Call said...: I was worshipping at one of Calvary Church sites and noticed that some of BOD and APs there are still pretending that all is well.

Just wonder how long they can be in denial stage. Surely at some point the truth will just have to come out. The human mind will crack at some point of time just liken to a rubber band that is stretched to its max... it will give way?

Seriously thinking: SP, APs & BOD, Isn't it more appropriate to call for a serious time of self & corporate( Church Body)examination, repentance and reconciliation during the coming prayer emphasis week?

Recently I am reminded that Advent (season before Christmas) is a time of Prayer & Repentance so let us all request our leaders to seek
God and pray, confess and repent from our wrongful ways and ask God for healing and reconciliation. That is God's way for us for our well being and we all know it especially our leaders!

BUT there can be no healing and reconciliation unless there is confession and repentance, right BOD and Pastors?

May the moment of realisation be soon!; November 23, 2008 at 7:11 PM
Discernement Needed said...: Don't think that the BOD and APs are oblivious to the "problems" the church is facing. However the obvious path to healing and reconciliation is to engage all parties and concern members and not trying to figure out a solution "behind close doors". It is clear that any "solution" without the input of all parties and concern members will not very far. In human terms, it is time to "put all things on the table and trash them out" - this no matter how ugly they can become since something good and new can come out when we do this in sincerity and with with a humble spirit. Don't we all have the same objective, i.e. to do the will of God?

On another topic - thank you Vijay for your clarification. Making suggestions and participating in this blog is not a bad idea (instead of pulling out completely), only that you should not be presumptous that you know all the real facts of the case and like I mentioned before, please look for areas to encourage healing and reconciliation instead of driving the wedge further to hasten disunity and breakup.; November 23, 2008 at 7:34 PM
Peer (a) of Pam said...: Right! " Peers of Pam and Jim"..good that you have called for Pam and Jim to come forward to speak the truth regarding their parents conduct. True, both of them also leaders in calvary church, why should they condone the wrong doing? Their children will eventually grow up and become a part in calvary church too. I pray they both will stand up for truth otherwise they may have to bear all embarassments and rejections and consequences of their parents's conduct eventually by the congregation. They both have to prove their leadership quality and crisis management skill now before they even deserve to inherit the church.; November 23, 2008 at 7:44 PM
Childhood friend of Pam said...: Agreed with you "peer (a) of Pam, i suppose both Pam and Jim also subsued to their parents, they both owned few extended ministries and lives is very comfortable for both of them. In fact, the extended ministry's account were not even submitted for AGM in march. One more, how can they do that to their parents? all of them in the same boat. But seriously, if her father CIM and other governance issues not addressed, the eventuality will be more trouble will befall calvary, both Pam and Jim extended also using same pattern like the father. What about the mother (Petrina) calvary book corner? still in sole proprietorship-- in her name --foon foon.

When Dr Lum discharged his duty as a God fearing and responsible deacon, he was not very welcome because he became a threat to the Board of deacon and her father. I saw how persevering ( Dr Lum) family was during his deaconship.; November 23, 2008 at 8:03 PM
K H Tan said...: Yes, stepping down is more dignified than staying on the Board. Calvarites are given empty assurances of positive changes and moving forward by the BOD during the EGM

Please inform all of us the changes and what has moved forward since the EGM.....; November 23, 2008 at 8:03 PM
Christian Insider Today said...: Dear Discernment Needed and the likes,

I sense you are all out to put down Vijay. Vijay will not cause disunity or breakup.

In a spiritual sense, we were already divided. Let's be honest about it. Physically, we can be together but spiritual we are not.

Talking about reconciliation, I observe BOD and SP fail miserably. They are not coming forward. They are still aloof, breaking every grain of fellowship as Christians. They live and serve with power and position.

Vijay, you being an authority on Christian leadership, continue to throw more light on church and christian leadership. Your quote from good authors indeed help Calvarites who have all these while being kept in the dark.

Some may say you are interferring into Calvary Church affairs. I dare say you are not. If we are Christians, we should care for all the churches. After all, they are all the Lord's body..Biblically, we care for all the members of the body of Christ. We also rebuke leaders, Pastors or otherwise, for such wrong teaching about interferrence. They are only thinking about their churches, not the Christ's church.

All Christian leaders, churches and Christians, please rise up to challenge ourselves for the sake of Christ, His Church (people, not building nor local church) and the lost.

Press on for the good work of the Lord...soldiers like Dr Lum, Hong Meng, Datuk KC, Vijay and many others whom I can't name all

Christ's cause must be above and bigger than yours or mine.; November 23, 2008 at 8:33 PM
Discernemnt Needed said...: I have been following this blog since it started. Vijay has been providing his thoughts for quite sometime now. He has careful to provide his "guidance" with regards to principles of good governance, transparency and truth. For all these, I have not raised any concern but one of his latest post calls the creation of a "church" within a church, setting up opposing "programmes" and even have outside meetings and/or involving leaders from other churches to come into Calavry. I am concern over these views which are so openly advocated by him (by the way, expressing concern is not trying to put someone down). These suggestions I feel is unhealthy and do not speak of healing and reonciliation. I hope Christian Insider Today can appreciate where I am coming from which I think is a legitimate concern and observation. There is ALWAYS hope that the various "parties" within Calvary Church should and can work towards healing and reconciliation but if we follow what Vijay suggested (his last substantial post which I have referred to), we are simply signing on the dotted line for a church split - and again I ask, do you think this is really God's will?; November 23, 2008 at 8:46 PM
GMF Index Finger said...: Hello,

Imagine my delighted surprise when I realised that CT.blogspot.com is being moderated by the site admin! I thank the CT admins for stepping up and putting their foot down. For a while, the comments were really quite sickening! This represents a major milestone for this blog since its inception, and I think that, coupled with news of Dr. Lum's resignation, we are now really getting somewhere!

Discernment Needed: Doctor Vijay Paramsothy's suggestions appear to me, at least, to be pretty innocuous. Getting more guest speakers to come in and starting anew with a fresh group of spiritual leaders is one of the best ways I can see of ensuring ultimate power is held by no-one in the church. It's no more than what some other churches do. I've been to several flourishing churches in the past few years, and almost every Sunday a different pastor preaches. Also, in those churches the pastor or senior pastor appears to be well scrutinised and double-checked by the church elders.

Grace, mercy, forgiveness,
Index Finger

P.S. Dr. Vijay, Anon 2:25, great job. I think your respective crusades for responsible commenting and less use of the tag 'Anonymous' really drew attention of such problems to the CT Admins. Great job!; November 23, 2008 at 9:08 PM
GMF Index Finger said...: P.P.S. Been reading through the 469-comment post. It's an emotional roller coaster, and other tireless campaigners for responsible commenting and anonymous-less monikers include:

Bro Winslow
Honestly (whose words, though somewhat harsh, were a convicting clarion call for the guarding of rudder-tongues)

As a longtime Internet user, I applaud these people who understood that the powerful anonymity of the Internet entails great responsibility in use, and I hope that others emulate them in future.; November 23, 2008 at 9:36 PM
Mdm Chan said...: GMF index finger and discernment needed

Please spend less time complaining, Spend your time interceding for more discernment to come, as you may think you discern, i am discerning too, all suggestion here, especially from Viyay is godly, i challenge you to speak against him. God had called him to be a researcher, he know what he is talking.

I agreed fully with Christian Insider today, this person talking sense, i believe he/she must be bible scholar too.

As for calvarytoday, i felt that, they had been doing a marvelous job, despite their constant call for bloggers to behave themselves, it was people like anonymous and the likes who started, i am afraid they are of the ssame person and the same group. It was not because of the people mentioned above, they had been moderating from day one. Whereas, i believe some of the comments were floated for some relevance..it had served its purpose.

Yeah, i am very proud of calvarytoday.; November 23, 2008 at 9:36 PM
GMF Index Finger said...: Mdm Chan: Pardon me, but I was not speaking against Dr. Vijay Paramsothy from the NECF. I apologise if I appear to be complaining a lot.

Yes, there were a group of commentators who spoke with unchecked tongues, but the CT Admins have thankfully put a stop to that.

Respectfully,
Grace, Mercy and Forgiveness,
Index Finger; November 23, 2008 at 9:41 PM
Very concern said...: I agreed with "Discerment Needed", we should concentrate on healing and building one another.Let's us not try to give suggestion and opinion when we are not in the position to do so. We due respect Dr. vijay is only a christian researcher and not a pastor. I believe he has not pastor a church before,so the ideas and suggestion are only head knowledge and what we need is a pastor who love the sheep and not head knowledge.

Remember not a chirstian in this blog are mature to handle certain suggestion. As "Discernment needed" said this can cause disunity and disillusion among some of the Calvarite. Think about and gauge the responds from those who reading the blog.

thanks

God Bless; November 23, 2008 at 9:57 PM
CalvaryInsider said...: there had been numerous calls to healing and reconciliation, constitutional review, resignation of sp n wife.. all turn to deaf ears, its time people like Dr Vijay who are sound and people like the christian insider today to help to intervene. Who is mature or not? I think sp n wife n the board are not matured..why they dont know how to response to grievances and crisis. Dont ever give excuse that some bloggers cannot handle-- church will split.

Many had spoken, its been years ago, that the church already split. Who split the church, Sp-is the one and people like; discernment needed n index finger. He preached messages to split the members and worshippers.

The board and pastors dont want all the 7 resolutions and proposal submitted to them, they throw them away outright at the EGM. So, how to focus on the above, when it was thrown?

Despite all that, many wrote in again to the board and sp after EGM, still the same story, no response, no reply, until now...I believe Dr Lum must have been very discouraged and disappointed with sp for sp dorminant style of leadership and decision making process.; November 23, 2008 at 10:16 PM
Siew Chyuan said...: Hi "Discernment Needed",

In your comment at 8.46pm, you have stated that you have been following Vijay's comments right from the beginning & you had no concern until his comment at 4.41pm yesterday which you have interpreted as a suggestion to create a church within a church.

My reading & understanding is that Vijay is suggesting that disenchanted Calvarites shouldn't leave CC but they can always seek spiritual food elsewhere off & on. In fact, I know of some Calvarites who are already doing so at SIB, DUMC, GT, RLC, etc., etc., thus accounting for the empty seats in CC.

I agree 100% with Vijay as to leave CC would be playing into PG's hands (don't you remember how he used the pulpit to tell those who do not like it to go jump in the lake &/or to leave CC). CC belongs to God & to all Calvarites not to PG.

Please do not make Vijay feel unwelcomed at CT. I heard that Vijay was attending CC last year but left as he didn't agree with the quantum that PG wanted to spend on building CCC. Thus, Vijay may not be a Calvarite today but he is indeed an ex-Calvarite & he has "locus standi" to comment here.

I find his comments most stimulating & enriching. Vijay himself has commented that CT has achieved in 2 months what he, on his own, could not do in 2 years.

As for your closing comment that "There is ALWAYS hope that the various "parties" within Calvary Church should and can work towards healing and reconciliation but if we follow what Vijay suggested (his last substantial post which I have referred to), we are simply signing on the dotted line for a church split - and again I ask, do you think this is really God's will?", you may have missed my comment at 11.53am yesterday when I clarified that CC has already been split by PG at the AGM when he took the redundant vote on the Extended Ministries' A/cs.

I agree with you that the various parties within CC "should" work towards healing & reconcilation BUT "can" they do it? The TTG group wants to do it but does PG &/or the BOD want to do it?

The BOD had presented their "Moving Forward" paper at the EGM more than 3 months ago but we have yet to see or hear anything as yet (perhaps that's why PW likened Calvarites to tortoises at some past AGM).

It has come to my knowledge that the BOD has finally called for a leaders' meeting next Saturday to discuss this matter.

I am also aware that the Deacons have approached certain Calvarites to sit in the Constitution Review Committee (CRC). It appears that no one from the TTG group will be invited to sit in the CRC. If so, will there be fair play? Will we not be lumbered with another flawed constitution? Do we want to see history repeat itself at CC some 25 years down the line? What sort of a legacy will we be leaving to the next generation - our youths of today?

Do remember that the root cause of the current mess at CC is a flawed constituition introduced by PG in 1985 which gave the Senior Pastor too much authority & the BOD too much power such that they are unshakeable even when they have strayed.

I call upon all leaders of CC to stand up for TTG at next Saturday's meeting. Do not agree to do anything which your conscience (the still small voice in you) does not agree to. Be loyal but don't be blindly loyal as loyalty is fine but blind loyalty is just blind, are you?; November 23, 2008 at 10:28 PM
Historian said...: Dear Anon 2:25,(and Discernment Needed)

According to your reply, "I do not think I have insulted, at least not intentionally, Dr Vijay. If Dr Vijay felt offended, I apologize; that's not my intention." You have shown humility in apologizing eventhough you still feel that you have not insulted Dr. Vijay.

Perhaps it was not 'insulting him per se,' but you were indirectly questioning his motives for suggesting changes to our church system of governance.Which was, unfortunately, seized upon by persons like Discernment Needed who has 'gone on & on' to insult Dr. Vijay. However, I am satisfied that bro. Siew Chyuan has written in support of Dr. Vijay's sincerity. Perhaps Discernment Needed feel threatened by Dr. Vijay's suggestion for change in CC's leadership system because he has vested interest in the present system? Perhaps Discernment Needed is an AP or one of the BOD who is feeling alarmed that his 'contolling days' may be numbered? Perhaps.; November 24, 2008 at 12:27 AM
Historian said...: oops, I meant "controlling days.." SIGH! It's getting late, I need to sleep! yawn!; November 24, 2008 at 12:31 AM
Anon 2.25 said...: Dear Historian,

Thank you for your clarification and your gracious acceptance of my explanation.

I went back and read carefully my posts to see if I had questioned, directly or indirectly, Dr Vijay's motives.

I have to say even though I disagreed with some of his analyses and suggestions, I can't see his motives being questioned by my remarks.

I did used some emotionally loaded to counter what I felt were some overly sweeping remarks of his. I should been more calm. Sorry, Dr Vijay.

Anyways, this episode reminds me how important we must use our words carefully in posting on this blog. Rightly or wrongly, others might read into our remarks what we may not have intended to say. :)
What is said is not always exactly what is heard; what is written may not be exactly what is read.

In sum, I respect and value Dr Vijay's analyses and suggestions, though there are some points I disagreed and still disagree with. I remember Hong Meng's words which probably refer to the sequence of exchanges (not just between me and Dr Vijay's, I am sure) as "controversial but stimulating." I hope we will just leave it at that.

Blessings and Peace.

P.S. My spouse thinks my reply is really unnecessary: "Why must you always feel that you must get the last word in?" That I admit is a major character flaw in me. :p; November 24, 2008 at 8:03 AM
Winslow said...: Good morning everyone,

The Lord's Day went by us quietly yesterday at least on CT and I must say CT bloggers showed their maturity and composure in their comments. Well done.

Having stayed on the sideline most of the day, I wish to comment on th comments made by some bloggers on the sincerity of Dr Jay. Although I don't know him personally and have never met him before, I can sense he's a sincere believer who is equally concerned over the going-ons in CC.

I think he's coming in from the standpoint that when fellow Christians in CC are hurting, the Body of Christ in general is also hurting too. And for that itself, we must appreciate his concern and views, although some may not agree entirely with him on some points. That's ok as we can agree to disagree, and yet respect one another and not cast aspersions on each other.

I don't think we need to question his credentials and background, as we have also not requested others to state theirs too. Otherwise, this blog will be cluttered with credentials, and what have you.

Many have given comments and suggestions and it's up to us to ask God for discernment in our next course of action.

Some of you have commented on my comments on SP's message 3 Sundays ago, and I respect your opinions and similarly I also request you to respect mine too. God has give each one of us spiritual discernment and let's respect each other as God will direct us on how we yield to that discernment.

God bless you as you blog today and the rest of the week, but remember to blog responsibly.

Blessings,
Winslow; November 24, 2008 at 8:21 AM
Anon 2.25 said...: Well said, Brother Winslow. I think you said it better than I could.

Hoping that this does not generate another round of heated exchanges, I wish to add a "few more words." :)

I believe there is a significant distinction between leadership and ministry. Ministry is for all in the body, but leadership is for some. If all are chiefs, where are the Indians? :p

I also believe that the "governing structure" in CC is seriously flawed. I support whole-heartily Brother Hong Meng'c call for constitutional reforms. I am disappointed that the BOD seemed to be dragging their feet here. And if it is true that SP is attempting to stack the committee for reform with "his people," I am deeply saddened (even angry), to say the least.; November 24, 2008 at 8:35 AM
islander said...: Dear Anon 2.25...
I'm glad that you're on the side of truth,transparency and governance and hope that besides commenting on this blog, can you also write a letter to the BOD or talk to one of them to voice yr concerns to them? Especially since you sound like an older and more matured person..the BOD would be slightly more willing to listen to ppl like you than younger uns like us...I think the TTG group has been doing a great job so far and it would be helpful for them if more members also do their part. otherwise,the leadership would think it is only a small little group who have concerns on truth and transparency issues while the majority of the members are still agreeing with what the BOD is doing. Thx; November 24, 2008 at 8:51 AM
AIM acquaintance said...: Hie Pam and Jim

I read a few comments asking both of you to seek help and advice from one or two of the calvarites, indeed it is a good suggestion!

Yeah, it is time, both of you being leader in the church should come forward to rebuke the current senior pastor and wife for their wrong doing in chirstian leadership, what more they both also your parents. Bible taught us to be fair too, it is to stand up for righteousness in Christ and to uphold truth.

I urge you both to do what is necessary instead of still remaining silence.; November 24, 2008 at 9:05 AM
Prayer/Repentance Call said...: Dear Pastors & BOD,

Please Walk the Talk. Whatever you preach, share, exhort, admonish and stand for you must be willing to do and act accordingly, otherwise all is in vain.

If our leaders can't be good examples within the Church how are they going to influence others who are outside and watching CC?

We as members are supposed to follow our leaders. But thank God He has given us the Holy Spirit to discern right from wrong.

It is our prayer and deep desire for healing and reconciliation in CC. Let us all humble ourselves before the Lord repent and turn from our wrongful ways and return to God.

Yes now is the time for confession and repentance ... to lead us to restoration in the Lord!

May God bless us all.; November 24, 2008 at 9:06 AM
Siew Chyuan said...: Blessed Morning to all bloggers (though it's raining right now, look at it as showers of blessings),

Anon 2.25 has stated that "if it is true that SP is attempting to stack the committee for reform with "his people," I am deeply saddened (even angry), to say the least".

Sorry Bro. Anon 2.25, it is not a matter of "if"; PG has been stacking the BOD & other committees with people whom he perceived to be "Yes man/woman" all these years at CC; & PG will still continue to do so unless God raise up strong individuals to stand up for the Truth at CC.

If so, it's not biblical; none of thr apostles was the Chairman of the 1st BOD of 7 who were appointed to serve tables as the apostles felt that it was not good for them to be teaching & serving tables. So why must PG do both?

Alas, PG was wrong in Dr Lum's case. I guess he probably reckoned that 6 out of 7 is still OK as PG still controls the BOD.

In fact, that's why 23 years ago, in 1985, when PG introduced that flawed constitution (the source of all this mess at CC), he made sure that he would be the Chairman of the BOD so that even if PG was wrong on 4 out of 7, he could still use the casting vote.

Will we allow PG & the spineless BOD (the balance of 6) to do a "sandiwara" of a constitution review (do read my comment at 10.28pm last night on the deacons approaching certain individuals, whom they think are friendly to their cause, to sit in the Constitution Review Committee) & then lumber us with another flawed constitution to pass on to the next generation of Calvarites? God forbids, I pray.

What say you, Calvarties out there?; November 24, 2008 at 9:13 AM
Historian said...: Dear Anon 2:25,
I thank the Lord for a good night's sleep! :)

Thank you for taking the trouble to 'have the last word in'! :) It helps me to understand you better and to appreciate your sincerity as well. At times you did sound like you're a SP supporter but not anymore - yes, like Islander said, you are on the side of truth and transparency! I appreciate your apology to Dr. Vijay, whom I see as a sincere person who feels for us and wants to see churches more properly governed. After all, as members of the body of Christ, we are responsible for one another! We are our brother's keeper!

Dear Discernment Needed,& other like-minded who are intent on 'bashing Dr. Vijay,'

Why pick on Dr. Vijay, who is someone who cares and who is trying to help us sort out the problems we are facing by giving us an objective, bird's eye view of the CC fiasco? You owe the good Dr. an apology for your rudeness and your apparent lack of true discernment and Christian manners!

Instead of "Vijay bashing," why don't you write to A/G Council Ex-Co and trouble them to intervene instead of 'playing it safe' by staying on the sidelines as observers? Challenge them to follow the example of Dr. Vijay who cares enough to help us the way he knows how.; November 24, 2008 at 9:22 AM
GET REAL, LAH! said...: To all those who are trying to appeal to Jim & Pam G,

I think you are wasting your time. Jim & Pam are enjoying the fruit of their parents' ill-gotten gains - look at their big houses (Jim's RM1,000,000 bungalow), their big cars, their servants, their privileges at CC drawing big, fat salaries without really having to work much, their overseas all-expenses paid trips, etc, I can just go on & on...

I remember on one of SP's "secret trips" to Switzerland (around March this year), to stash more money into his acounts, he took Jim with him, probably signing him on as a joint-account-holder!

Remember Pam's answer to a youth who had asked her "why SP has to take business class flights?"? "Because he is so old, and business class is more comfortable..." was her nonsensical reply!

What makes you naive people think that Jim & Pam are going to 'talk to their filthy rich parents' to change their conniving ways, huh? Remember Pam's eldest daughter is studying in the States on a scholarship because of her famous (or infamous?) father's influence with A/G USA!!!; November 24, 2008 at 9:37 AM
Stay and Persevere said...: Well said Get Real Lah. Let's not waste time and effort by barking up the wrong tree appealling to Jim and Pam. Even if they have a remote sense of guilt and hear the small voice of the Holy Spirit urging them to do the necessary, I believe they too have tasted too much of the good life to do the right thing on their own.

Also, let's not waste too much time and effort analysing and examining what each of the bloggers such as Anon 2.25, Dr Vijay, Historian, etc have expressed. As far as I can see Dr Vijay and Anon 2.25 are certainly on the side of truth, but I cannot say the same for others such as Index Finger or Honestly.

It is true that the Deacons have called for a meeting with the leaders of CC this coming Saturday. In fact there will be 3 1-hour meetings with the leaders split into 3 groups (Divide and conquer?). So now it appears (according to Siew Chyuan's information) that a Constitution Review Committee, with PG-friendly members, will be formed. It will then not be a case of moving forward, more like moving sideways or even backwards!

I suggest that the leaders going into the meeting be armed with the latest update and information, such as has CIM been officially de-listed yet from NECF? Also it will be better still if Dr Lum's interview with CT is posted before Sat. so that the reasons for his resignation can be brought up and discussed in the meeting.

At this stage it seems to me that the Deacons have not changed from their irresponsible, deceitful and uncaring ways, and I suggest that the TTG group and other concerned members proceed with alternative plans and course of action.

In His love.; November 24, 2008 at 10:22 AM
AIM acquaintance said...: To : GET REAL LAH

Ummmmmm..No it is not a waste of time, you noticed, in one of the comment in the earlier post, one of the deacons responded, you know, they tell lies, they said they never read the blog! and when asked. They do read lah..both Jim and Pam will have to response when God tugging in their heart and keep knocking their upper faculty ( the head ). Wait lor and see, God wont be silence for long...something will have to take place...

When ask the same question to the associate pastors, they also said, "what blog ?", actually they also read! I dare challenge the current senior pastor and wife to go witch hunt his subordinate and staff. He is so autocratic, no money no talk lah, that's why he bullied his subordinate and staff.
To, Mr PG, please stop ill treating the satff and spoil the two 'big' adult children.

I have pastor from other churches approaching me to seek financial help to even meet basic salary need of the pastor, and here we are, as members of the church have to 'quarrel' over his wealth and his "tai ko" attitude, I am very sad and very angry and disillusion over this entanglement in the church now. Why such great disparity? one of the reasons is, i found out in recent years is that our pastors in the church very good at preaching at giving money, faith promise; giving..giving..and giving, on the contrary, what did they give? their mouth piece! not faith!

I felt very cheated, you see, yesterday 2nd service at Damansara Height also same thing, Pastor David Siah also preached about giving faith promise, he said because of that he can become a pastor, to me this is not entirely true.. you know, when calvary church sponsor you, in a way, you became a "kaki ampu" , your obligation in return is to keep praising senior pastor for how good he is and also is to keep preaching about giving lah. That is what i know since i am already 30 years in calvary church.

Again, now why i know, why Dr Lum resigned, he cannot be a "kaki ampu"; November 24, 2008 at 10:33 AM
AIM acquaintance said...: Yes, Stay and Persevere, very true, since Saturday going to be meeting for leaders; leaders please help calvary church this time to turn things around, do not allow Sp and wife crying tear or emotional tear and mesmerising word to confuse you..you know, one of our ex-deacon and me and my spouse concluded that Sp seemingly appeared to be very right when he 'talked' each time and you became very convinced at that Hour, but later on, when you go home pray and ponder, all he said became 'not very right', be careful, leaders, do take not of this 'magical power', do arm yourself with the power and aunction of the holy spirit!

No, leaders, please do not agree to have one sided committee to be the committee for the 'constitution review', there must be people like Hong Meng, Grace or Lilian and also Datuk KC and Bro. Teng.

Leaders, please submit your request to ask Sp and wife to retire before they were thrown out through means of law or outright rejection of the members.

finally, i will keep you in prayer, strength and wisdom and power of the Lord be unto you!; November 24, 2008 at 10:47 AM
Anon 1.01 said...: To Syew Chuan,

I agree we need to stand by the truth. However at this moment I feel lets not be too quick to jump into conclusion nor anticipate what SP is going to do.

Give time to the leaders to respond. Perhaps there be another EGM soon ;-)

I respect Dr Lum's resignation but that doesn't mean the church is divided or in chaos. It is probably there are views that Dr Lum refuse to compromise. I respect his decision, it may be better for him and the church too.

In my opinion, so long the gospel is preached and lives are touched, it doesn't matter what colour we use to paint the church. It can be white, black, red, green... it doesn't matter so long we don't compromise the Word of God.

On SP being obsessed with mammon... let God be the Judge. My views are if not confident in sowing into SP's ministry, then don't sow into it. If SP's ministry is not birth fromm God, it will eventually diminished regardless how many tactics deployed to raise money.

At this moment, I don't seen any signs of victories or triumphs.... just speculations needed to be confirmed. To me the most measurable victories, are souls won into the kingdom and disciples trained to be sent out into the fields. This should be our yard stick.

Yes it is not desirable to be in this kind of situation. But lets be patience and play by ear.; November 24, 2008 at 11:10 AM
Stay and Pesevere said...: To AIM acquaintance,

It is indeed true what you say about the eloquence and convincing manner of PG's talks. How else can he manage to keep good Pastors such as David Seah, SK and Richard (good to the extend of my personal knowledge and interaction) on his side and continue to do his bidding. However, we must all remember that eloquence is not the hallmark of a sincere and caring leader; the fallen American TV evangelists are examples.

APs, please wake up and free yourselves from the mesmorising hold of the one man!

In His love.; November 24, 2008 at 11:11 AM
CalvaryEscort said...: To : anon 1.01

hihihi, you very good at preaching, go preach to save souls, but not in the comfort of calvary church premises, the house of the Lord. go out to the street, to the poor, the rejected in the kampung and jungle. I challenge you, go do it for this whole week and come back and share your testimony in this blog.

Tell me, how many souls were saved so far in the last 9 months in calvary, tell me how many left calvary in the last 9 months??

Senior pastor told many people and also preached to ask the TTG supporter to leave the church, he is denying us the basic right of salvation and worship, he is worse than a non religious practitioner!!

Escuses again, when truth are brought up by bloggers here, we plead to talk about salvation..alas.. God have mercy for anon 1.01; November 24, 2008 at 11:35 AM
Stay and Pesevere said...: To Anon 1.01,

Very true what you have said, and it is for the very reasons which you have stated that PG (SP) should be removed. The rationale are as follows:=

You stated: "To me the most measurable victories, are souls won into the kingdom and disciples trained to be sent out into the fields. This should be our yard stick."

Reply: For every soul won or new attendee to CC, more have left. Look at the increasing number of empty pews in the various services. Furthermore, the official statistics given by the BOD in the last AGM is there there is only minimal increase in CC attendance in the past 3 years. (About 3,000 definitely not the deceitful figure of 10,000 recently reported). All this while other churches around such as DUMC, SIB, City harvest have much bigger increases in attendances. Talking about disciples or missionaries sent out into the field, you should have a talk with Tony and Christine Phang. Their testimonies on the treatment by the CC missions dept will probably make you cry.

You stated: "it doesn't matter so long we don't compromise the Word of God."

Reply: The Word of God is based on love. Where is the love from PG? Will a caring person or Pastor preach from the pulpit to the effect that all those those who do not agree with him are free to leave the church? I believe there are many instances too where he had twisted Scripture to suit his needs.

You stated: "If SP's ministry is not birth fromm God, it will eventually diminished "

Reply: Yes I agree, but don't you think that CC should not be made to suffer along? If PG remains as the SP of CC and if it is the will of God that he diminishes, CC will also diminish. Is that fair to all the members, leaders, etc of CC who have helped build up and contributed to CC all these years?

Hence Anon 1.01 by your own justification, unless PG repents (and return the unauthorised transfer of funds into CIM) there is no alternative but for him to be removed.

In His love.; November 24, 2008 at 11:53 AM
Anonymous said...: Dear CalvaryToday editors

I want all of you to know that what is happening in CC is impacting the other AG churches in Malaysia especially to implement good governance in church financial management. Honestly, this is a wake up call to the Malaysian AG churches where some (please take note the word some) senior pastors are running the church like a CEO of a company. There are many similar TTG group out there but not many willing to be as bold as CC TTG group. I salute your determination to uphold truth in the house of God.

I believe this is a wake call for the newly appointed Malaysian AG Council to start to implement some strict measures in the AG churches today. First thing they can look at is how many AG pastors are using the Home Mission status to protect their power status in the church. Many large AG churches are still under home mission status without applying for sovereign status. Some are as big as 300 members....why? Because Senior Pastor can appoint their favourite board members....no election needed....!!!! So wake up Malaysian AG Council....!!!

To the founding fathers/mothers of CalvaryToday, thank you once again for providing valuable inside to church governance.; November 24, 2008 at 1:25 PM
His Creation said...: Dear TTG

Be encouraged and be steadfast in your calling towards TRUTH, TRANSPARENCY AND GOOD GOVERNANCE.

We are to lean on God and not rely on our own abilities. Certainly we are to use the gifts and abilities God has given us, but not outside of God's guidance. When we are "born again," we are given spiritual eyes to see things and understand things that otherwise we could not discern without the Holy Spirit.

When we are submitted to the Lord, He then begins to guide and lead us by His Spirit; we follow Him in faith, knowing He will not disappoint us or lead us astray. We must learn to obey Him, even when we do not see or understand how He is leading.

If we want holy guidance, we must study the word of God and find out what God has to say about life and human experience, so that we can be guided by His Word.

Neither my opinion, nor anyone else's opinions, are sufficient to solve the problems of humanity. The answers can only be found in God's Word.

He is the Creator of all things, and He has the answers for His creation.

He is the Judge and final authority on every subject.; November 24, 2008 at 1:35 PM
27 year CC said...: to "get real" and all of you

Just to let you all know, Pam's daughter is studying at Nort West University at www.northwestu.edu. It is an AOG university and our SP and Tan Sri Khoo Kay Peng sits on the Board of Officers of the university.; November 24, 2008 at 1:59 PM
Anon 2.25 said...: My dear brothers and sisters,

I will try to keep my words few. :)

@Historian: Thank you for your kind words.

@Siew Chyuan: Thanks for the correction. Perhaps, I should have said, "I've heard from what I consider to be reliable sources ..." instead of starting the sentence with "If"

@Stay and Perservere: Thanks. Hoping for a small "miracle." :)

@islander: Will do my best what I can, besides blogging.

Bless you all! God is Good!; November 24, 2008 at 3:32 PM
How come? said...: Pator David said AIM is supported by our Faith Promise, how come my son need to pay almost rm500 when he enrolled?; November 24, 2008 at 4:40 PM
AIMing the wrong reason said...: Dear parents,

I hope you all talk to your children especially those in the higher secondary school.

I find it disgusting when church staff and APs keep on asking the youth to attend the CIM without even considering whether they are going into college or not.

If there is a long holiday, then its a different story. But some are starting college in the first week of January and there you try to convince them to enter AIM so that you can get the nos for your AIM otherwise it may have to close down because there are no new students.

I plead to the APs and church staff not to push the youth to join AIM. Do you push church members to go to BIM?

Dont be selfish. You may think education is not important to you but it is to many of the youth. Not all will become pastors, teachers, etc.

Please.; November 24, 2008 at 5:08 PM
AIMing the wrong reason said...: Sorry, I meant "..asking the youth to attend AIM....."; November 24, 2008 at 5:25 PM
Form 5after said...: Yalor, young high school student, education is actually very important, this day, with basic degree you may not even get a job.

Going to AIM may not necessary make you a better christian, I understand that some of the teachers there are mainly from calvary church, our current board and pastors and associate pastors and assistant pastors, the AIM president and director, all in the same boat--' not very clean cut' so what good, will you learn from them??

yalor again, why keep asking the after form 5 to go AIM? the intention is quite clear lor, want more students to make AIM a future university for Ms Pam, so that she can run the private university independently and keep all profit but make use of church resources. Again, this is abuse of power and resources.

i am also quite sick, its like you are more spiritual because you go to AIM. And yet when we have a few BCM graduate and bible degree holder in the church, Sn pastor keep insulting them thru his message and said that you got bible degree but you are only religious. Thats how jealous he is, refuse to recognise all these bible scholars.

But, as for AIM, they can promote all the way. Let me said this, I am not exaggerating, this is personal experience ( my parent's friend )in the church ok..; November 24, 2008 at 5:37 PM
Observations said...: I agree with AIMing the wrong reason, APs asking and fishing for young school and college leavers to go for AIM without consideration of their future.

Just for getting the numbers to come and fulfil their quota. Why don't APs and CC leadership review and evaluate the purpose and subjects taught whether relevant and helpful and reasons people especially adults (should not be just for youths) not coming forth?

Besides going for AIM must be a calling it's not just about recruiting and to get numbers to come so as to look good! It is becoming so commercialised.

I think in the case of getting young school and college leavers, there is subtle manupilation of young minds whilst parents are very trusting.; November 24, 2008 at 5:43 PM
Ah Beng said...: To Form 5 After,

Re-your comment that "yet when we have a few BCM graduates and bible degree holders in the church, Sn pastor keep insulting them thru his message and said that you got bible degree but you are only religious. That's how jealous he is, refuse to recognise all these bible scholars."

Where would PG be today if there was no BCM? Has PG forgotten that he himself graduated from BCM? This is a case of "kacang lupakan kulit".

Should a Christian, for that matter a SP, forget about his roots? Where is his gratitude? Has PG also forgotten that where he is today is due to God's grace & not his own doing?

Anyway, why does PG needs to have AIM when BCM is already in existence? Wouldn't it be better to close down AIM? Why set up AIM to compete with BCM?; November 24, 2008 at 5:57 PM
SIEW CHYUAN said...: To Anon 1.01,

Firstly, I shall give you the benefit of the doubt that you have messed up my name unintentionally – it’s SIEW CHYUAN & NOT Syew Chuan. You will not get a reply from me in future if you play around with my name again. Remember I did say to all that we must respect PG’s name & not make fun of it or name call him.

You commented that “at this moment I feel let’s not be too quick to jump into conclusion nor anticipate what SP is going to do.” I do NOT agree with you as CC is in the mess today because we have all allowed PG to get away with “murder’ over the years. It’s time we all stand up for TTG at CC & for God who is a god of Truth.

You then commented that “Give time to the leaders to respond. Perhaps there be another EGM soon”. Were you, Anon 1.01, at the last EGM? If so, were you satisfied with how it was conducted – oppressive means used such as:-
1. only 2 microphones provided & that too placed upfront to intimidate those not so bold,
2. restricting the number of questions that we can raise,
3. discarding the 7 resolutions which were put up validly under PG’s flawed constitution,
4. PG controlling the Chairman & the microphones by “remote control”,
5. PG & BOD refusing to answer what was so malicious that should make them come out with that infamous & untrue statement read out at God’s house on 6th July at all the 6 Sunday services,
6. etc., etc., etc.

Your comment that “on SP being obsessed with mammon... let God be the Judge.” My view is that unless one is blind (perhaps through blind loyalty), it is so obvious to all that PG has been using the pulpit (over the last few years) to solicit for more & more funds. In case you haven’t notice, there are now more than 2 coloured-envelopes at the back of the seat infront of you in the sanctuary. His action has caused newcomers & Calvarites to drift away.

Your comment that “at this moment, I don't seen any signs of victories or triumphs….” In His time, He will grant us the victory; for it is not your battle or mine that we are waging, it is His battle.

Through all this mess at CC, I am merely AVAILing myself to God as He has made me ABLE over the years. Anon 1.01, are you a supporter of Truth, Transparency & good Governance (TTG) at CC? If so, can you make yourself AVAILABLE to God who is on the side of Truth? Will you stand up for God & TTG or will you continue to condone PG’s misdeeds?

It’s your choice, choose wisely, choose God & TTG!; November 24, 2008 at 6:36 PM
JOYCE said...: Let me clarify on Eddy Law's wedding.

I feel very sad that the joyous ocassion of my nephew, commander Eddy Law's wedding held in January2006, was dragged into this controversy.

The wedding reception (buffet style) was held in CRC and NOT in the church sanctuary. There were professional waiters and waitresses to serve the guests. The Royal Rangers chipped in to help voluntarily.

Just thought it would be helpful to present the actual situation. May I also appeal to all bloggers NOT to drag any innocent party into this forum unnecessarily.

Thank you and God bless.; November 24, 2008 at 6:47 PM
Food For Thought said...: Just read an interesting & apt article (from Nov 20's Daily Devotional by John C. Maxcell), which explains why there is a mess at CC, entitled "As the Leader Goes, So Goes the Nation".

Article read as follows ......

"He did evil in the sight of the Lord, and walked in the way of Jeroboam, and in his sin by which he had made Israel sin". 1 Kings 15:34

Leadership ability is the lid on the success of a nation or organization. When Israel or Judah lived under good kings, things went well. Under bad kings, things went sour. The heart and skill of a leader will always tremendously affect the life of the people under his direction. This is a law, both timeless and universal. See how this law played out under the Hebrew kings of the Old Testament:

1. Good Kings

Drew loyalty from their people
Enjoyed victory over sin
Enjoyed peace within the kingdom
Were affirmed by God's prophets
Enjoyed prosperity
Opposed evil kings

2. Bad Kings

Drew rebellion from their people
Saw bondage to sin
Suffered turmoil within the kingdom
Were rebuked by God's prophets
Often endured natural disasters and war
Opposed good kings; November 24, 2008 at 6:48 PM
JOYCE said...: Sorry, posted the comment in the wrong comment box. Suppose to be a comment for the previous post.; November 24, 2008 at 6:55 PM
Ah Heng said...: Dear How come?

In CC Faith Promise jargon, as echoed by Pastor DS, SUPPORT simply means monetary support of any amount. Whether it's RM200, RM500 or RM1,000 paid either as one-off payment or monthly disbursement, it's SUPPORT.

Hence, what Pastor DS meant when he said AIM is supported by our Faith Promise, he's using CC Faith Promise jargon very loosely. It can mean support for rental, petrol allowance, pocket allowance, meal allowance or any allowances.

In short, the term "support" is very subjective, and can be misleading too. By the way, it definitely does not include fees for AIM students. That you have to support yourself.

The impression given by Pastor DS is he's the product of our Faith promise programme. Without the Faith Promise programme, he would not have been a pastor. In short, he's subtly implying that we should never stop giving to Faith Promise, otherwise we will not have pastors like him.

Hey, Pastor DS, why beat around the bush. Just say, "Give your Faith Promise as we are short." Don't weave it around a sermon. Leave weaving to the basket weaver.; November 24, 2008 at 7:46 PM
Share You Own Testimony said...: Ah Heng,

It was very encouraging to me to hear PD message and how Faith Promise has change his life and he is still faithfully giving. It is great that he is sharing the testimony of his life.

What are you doing? Instead of trying to critic him. Share your salvation experience. IF you think he is going round in circle, I would suggest that you perpare your own sermon and preach to yourself.

I would advice you not to distort other people testimony. Thanks.; November 24, 2008 at 8:58 PM
Anon 1.01 said...: Bro Siew Chyuan,

So sorry...

I remember there was a letter "y" in your name. It wasn't deliberate.

Also this is my first time contributing my views.

Appreciate your reply and took notice of my views. It is difficult to 'convict' someone if evidence is not strong enough. If BOD don't see it as abuse of power and fund manipulation, there is no way to prove SP of wrong doings.; November 24, 2008 at 9:31 PM
Lim said...: Aiyo, Anon 1.01, you talk like someone without any conviction and conscience of wrong doing, why need BOD to be convinced of wrong doing of SP ahh? Looks like the BOD and senior pastor can live above the law forever and ever...and ever..and ever..

So, dear concerned calvarites, all of us should cry now and just allow both BOD and sp to commit sin forever and ever and ever....and ever

Very very sad and we shall all mourn for calvary church now too, it is heading for disaster or what?; November 24, 2008 at 9:58 PM
LOSTof 8 said...: To : Ah Heng

I fully agreed and concurred with you for what you had shared about Ps. David Seah's sermon yesterday, I and my spouse heard it with our pair of absolute healthy and clear ears.

What the 'share your own tesrimony' said is not correct and totally misleading. David Seah not only weaving the basket , he merely narrating God's word! His whole motive is very clear, just like someone said earlier " dia kaki ampu" because he said he was product of faith promise..

Ah Heng, your comment reflect your maturity and ability to analyse and discern.

Faith promise is something that I never agreed with all these years. Why should we promise.. Why cant I just practise faith giving instead of faith promise? the use of that 'phrase' already mislead us ..
somehow, in calvary church, when coming to talk about giving, it must be, 'a promise'; a pledge'; 'a commitment', why cant we just give because we love to give..sigh!

My friend called us yesterday and also complained about David Seah yesterday and give me bad news, he is leaving the church and also another couple, I am truly very sad...sob!sob! We lost another 8 members, each household in this case--4+4; November 24, 2008 at 10:20 PM
Generosity said...: Faith promise is not Biblical!!
Give with a cheerful heart is!!!; November 24, 2008 at 10:27 PM
angry and disappointed said...: To "share your own testimony"

For the whole of this year ie from Jan to now, many things have been preached from the pulpit. Some preachers encouraged me in my faith but some really discouraged me. The ones that discouraged me put fear in me. I know this is not from God because God said He has not given me a spirit of fear. There are some sermons preached by SP which has also taken the Bible out of context. So, for me it is hard to accept everything that is preached from the pulpit. That means I have LOST CONFIDENCE in our pastors, EVERY ONE OF THEM. Our pastors are supposed to guard the pulpit and make sure what is preached edifies and build the church. Looks like our pastors are not doing their job.
By the way, do you remember Pastor DS's testimony about praying about repairing his toilet? Just can not imagine how come Pastor DS do not have money to get his toilet repaired but SP got money to fly business class around the world? Have you ever wondered why? One so poor until got no money to repair toilet and another one rich enough to fly business class!!!!!!
So plse do not be deceived. The choice is yours anyway???; November 24, 2008 at 10:28 PM
Long time member said...: Dear all,

Talking about faith promise. Remember an amount of 200k was transferred every year to CIM.
So how to give faith promise? They take your money and say they support this person, that person and that person. But they never tell you that they transfer 200K every year to CIM.

So do you still want to give to faith promise? I have stopped giving to faith promise many years already. I have become a Mission Director myself.

So what say all of you?; November 24, 2008 at 10:34 PM
Giving Endlessly said...: Dear Generosity,

I am glad there is someone who is honest enough to admit it that Faith Promise is not Biblical.

They are so good in thinking of names on giving.

1. Faith Promise
2. Bite size
3. Buy a brick
4.
5.

Can someone please help? Please continue the list for me.; November 24, 2008 at 10:37 PM
LOST of 8 said...: Not that I stop giving faith promise, my friends, many of them already told me, all his high profile friends who ar. attending calvary church to stop giving to faith promise and ccc. The saddest part is he is a 'generous and big giver', Sorry lah, calvary mission director and pastors, your account will be short by millions, you lost all his tithes, faith promise and ccc giving and also the pastors gift. He left the church with effect from yesterday. sob!sob! again.; November 24, 2008 at 10:45 PM
Mission OTM said...: Yes, Long time member. Take charge of your action. The CC mission dept has been in ??? for a long time. You are not the only one long time Mission Director. I knew a few others too. God bless all of you. Give, give sacrificially, give with cheerful heart. Be close to the needs, you will never make the wrong choice.; November 24, 2008 at 11:36 PM
obvious said...: Hi, does anyone know if Dr.Lum is also attending the leaders' meeting this sat or will the rest of the BOD and SP be conducting the meeting without him?

Reason being is I am wondering how they will justify Dr.Lum's resignation to the leaders and whether they will just explain their side of the story. Dr.Lum should also be there to explain his side of the story if that is the case.; November 24, 2008 at 11:43 PM
Share You Own Testimony said...: Wow. You all responded very respectfully. Though I may not share the same view point as you, I really must commend you for the way you responded. The last time I tried to say something with respect for all, I got back a pretty harsh respond. Thanks alot for your insight. I'm giving you recognition where it's due. I'm impress.; November 24, 2008 at 11:45 PM
NO MORE FAITH IN PG said...: Hi "Giving Endlessly",

Aiyo! All this turmoil is bad for your memory eh? It's also affecting mine lah but I think it's......

1. Faith Promise
2. Bite size
3. Buy a brick
4. Leap in Faith
5. Leap in Faith 2

Actually, I have no more faith in PG & BOD so I had written that down on the Faith Promise card in July so that PG will get the message.

Alas! Some "ampu kaki" probably threw my Faith Promise card away 'cos they dare not show it to PG.

SK, in reading, please print my comment for PG so that he can understand why the Faith Promise pledges & collections is dwindling 'cos "WE HAVE NO MORE FAITH IN PG".; November 24, 2008 at 11:49 PM
BT Lim said...: Dear SP & Missions Director of CC,

I'm now my own Missions Director because both of you betrayed my trust when I was giving faith promise.

Both of you colloborated to transfer RM200,000.00 to CIM without members' and faith promise partners' knowledge for 6 long years.

This is definitely NOT RIGHT, LEGALLY and MORALLY. SP and PO, pray earnestly to our God, and if you still receive God's peace that it's right, respond to us on this blog. I dare you. Otherwise, CIM better returns the $$$ to CC.

We have lost faith in the Faith Promise programme because CC has betrayed our trust. We will give to needs that are close to our hearts.; November 25, 2008 at 7:59 AM
Anon 2.25 said...: Dear friends,

"And let us not grow weary of doing good, for in due season we will reap, if we do not give up." (Gal 6:9)
"Consider him who endured from sinners such hostility against himself, so that you may not grow weary or fainthearted." (Heb 12:3)

May I humbly suggest that we add to our blogging, some small concrete acts. Maybe we need someone, like Siew Chyuan, to help organize a concerted effort like "Operation Persistent Widow." Like the widow in Luke 18, who is powerless, perhaps each person, could write (email or otherwise), phone, speak to every leader you know, and share your concerns. Plead with humility; harsh words will turn against us. During services, use "offering envelopes" to send short "love notes." Recruit as many as you can to do likewise. We must try to produce a groundswell, that we will not be ignored any longer. Right now, they think we a just a very tiny though loud minority. Key to success is love, gentleness, and humility. Jesus says, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." 2 Cor 12:9

Blessings and Peace.; November 25, 2008 at 9:00 AM
NO MORE FAITH IN PG said...: To PG & PO,

In support of BT Lim's comment, kindly note that I have also decided to be my own Missions Director as well.

Henceforth, not only will I not be partaking in the Faith Promise (which has no Biblical basis) but I will also channel my tithes to other churches since both of you (PG & PO) have demonstrated that you don't value our contribution by choosing to ignore us.

If you still have that still small voice in you, open the ears of your heart & listen to what God is saying.

Don't rest on your laurels, PG. All the good that you did in the earlier years at CC is now being undone by your insolence, arrogance & uncaring attitude in this whole turmoil at CC which was sparked off by your siphoning of RM 1.9m from 2002 to 2007. God knows how much more you may have siphoned in 2008.

PO stop abetting PG, he is only your earthly boss; obey your Ultimate Master in Heaven. God is not pleased with your abetment of PG's siphoning of His funds to his personal ministry - CIM (Christ Is Missing).

Whilst we have CARE in the Missions Dept, PG showed CARE & concern. Now that PG has CARED in CIM, indeed PG does not show care & concern anymore for he had CARED. How apt that PG should name it as such though we know that it was not his motive to reveal his heart's condition but to be able to add a "D" to cheques issued to "CARE" so that he can bank them into his own bank a/c.

PG & PO, wake up from your spiritual slumber, God says enough is enough & He will not be mocked.

You have been warned, heed the warning before it is too late. Remember God is setting up Roadblocks to stop you from going to Hell.; November 25, 2008 at 9:08 AM
Ah Beng said...: To all fellow Concerned Calvarites,

I agree with BT Lim & "No More Faith in PG" that we should be our own Missions Directors to channel our tithes to other more godly churches & need-situations.

There was an article which said that disgruntled church goers often vote in one of 2 ways:
1. with their feet (i.e. leave the church),
2. with their cheque books or wallets (i.e. stop supporting the church financially).

I do not agree with # 1 which would just play into PG's hands (remember how he "preached" that we should go jump in the lake).

I suggest that we remain at CC & adopt # 2 which is STOP GIVING ANY FINANCIAL SUPPORT TO CC.

Accountants will tell you that profitable companies that collapse do so because of poor Cash Flow. So let's STOP our hard earned cash from flowing into CC which is now managed by a bunch of ungodly persons - PG, APs & BOD.; November 25, 2008 at 9:26 AM
Anon 2.25 said...: Dear Ah Beng,

Use the love offering envelops to put in a short note like, "In lieu of my offering/tithes/missions, please hear our pleas and heal our church." Something like that. No harsh , critical, judgmental notes. Let the Holy Spirit do that. Even if SP does not get to read the notes, someone does, and we may get to "convert" some.; November 25, 2008 at 9:40 AM
NO MORE FAITH IN PG said...: As we stop tithing to CC & to win over any APs & CC staff (who are still godly), I remember Bro. Siew Chyuan’s suggestion at 11.32am on 22 Nov which I am attaching below for everyone’s convenience:-

“As for the APs who fear God more than they fear the man (PG), may I be bold enough to suggest that CT set up a fund (from our tithes) to support all such APs who are prepared to step down in protest of PG's misdeeds & stand up for God & TTG at CC?

What say you TTG bloggers out there? Do I hear an aye from each & everyone of you?

Perhaps, we can even take this a step further & extend our offer to the CC staff. Let it be known that I, on behalf of the TTG at CC, has drawn a line at CC & all the 6 Deacons, APs & staff should now decide whether they choose to stand with PG or with the TTG at CC. As for me & my family, I have chosen to stand with the one & only God, Jesus, (not like PG who has chosen mammon).”

Further to the support by “seventy times seven” at 1.42pm & “EY” at 1.47pm (both on 22 Nov), I now stand with them & Bro. Siew Chyuan that we SHOULD set up a fund with our tithes to support such APs & CC staff (who are still godly) & who wants to stand up for God & for Truth at CC. Can CT look into this “project”?

Perhaps, CT also need to look into the registering of Concerned Calvarites who will support this fund.

Whilst waiting for CT to come out with details, I call upon all Concerned Calvarites to register your support of Bro. Siew Chyuan’s proposal for such a fund by declaring your support in this blog, thus may I repeat his clarion call:-

What say you TTG bloggers out there? Do I hear an aye from each & everyone of you?; November 25, 2008 at 9:50 AM
Turn Off The Tap said...: Hmmm.....

What BT Lim, "No More Faith in PG" & Ah Beng said seems to make sense ah.

I think I'll join them to be my own Missions Director.

I also support Bro. Siew Chyuan's suggestion to set up a fund for APs & staff who want to stand up for God & Truth.; November 25, 2008 at 10:01 AM
Turn Up The Heat said...: Count me in 2, Bro. Siew Chyuan.; November 25, 2008 at 10:10 AM
BT Lim said...: Count me in too, SC.; November 25, 2008 at 10:32 AM
wage-earner said...: I'm wage-earner and may not contribute much. But, please dont leave me out!; November 25, 2008 at 12:49 PM
long time member of CC said...: yes count me in too; November 25, 2008 at 12:49 PM
Ah Heng said...: Dear wage-earner,

Do you mean, count you in?; November 25, 2008 at 12:52 PM
wage-earner said...: Dear Ah Heng,
Yes please.; November 25, 2008 at 1:00 PM
wage-earner said...: Dear Ah Heng,
Yes please.; November 25, 2008 at 1:00 PM
sian liao said...: 'sian liao' said...
Aiyah, count..count..count.count, I suggest we go..go..go..to police lah..dont want to do this, do that, very sian liao... I dont think I can wait so long anymorelah..I must well dont go to calvary anymore..sian..sian..sian..; November 25, 2008 at 1:30 PM
Ah Lian said...: Dear sian liao,

I know u veli angry, but be patient lo! Do go polis yet, must try eveli metod 1st. I know u sian, i'm also sian. But we must wait 1st b4 going to polis.; November 25, 2008 at 1:38 PM
Ah Beng No. 2 said...: Dear sian liao

Be patient. Don't leave the church yet. We need your full support so that we restore TTG in CC.

I can understand your feelings because my wife also talks like that. But I always tell her to be patient. We must wait for God to cleanse and restore His church.; November 25, 2008 at 1:54 PM
Unit Tindakan Khas said...: Go report police, Tax Authorities,
and Govt agencies since BOD & AoG council are dragging their feet on the table.

It has gone to an untolerable and breaking point.

Let the quilty one be on the Headlines..
A Prompinent P Arrested........

Too bad CC will be history & Good bye.

Et tu Brute ?; November 25, 2008 at 2:11 PM
bus driver said...: Dear Sian Liao

Cannot say dun go to Calvary anymore.PG will be happy to hear that cos he has been telling the members to go to another church.Sad to say many have gone to another church and they are very rich people

Remember the speaker who said change bus?????

BUT....
We want to change bus driver!!!!!
We want to change bus driver!!!!!
We want to change bus driver!!!!!

We want a bus driver that cares for his passengers and follow the road signs. We do not want one that breaks the rules and then bribe his ways through.

The bus driver that we are having right now only cares for himself. He ONLY knows how to ask money from his passengers. He doesn't care whether you can afford it or not. So long as you are in his bus you are ask to give and give and give.

Someone gave her whole bonus.....She had waited 365 days for that moment to receive the bonus and had to give away. Imagine that person will be soooooo hurt if she will to find out how our driver spend lavishly on himself. RM10K suits, RM2K for shoes.

This driver is indeed very selfish.; November 25, 2008 at 2:26 PM
sian liao said...: If every body sian liao, no body in the house of the Lord, empty seat, so let him preach to the wall lah, so he even more sian..; November 25, 2008 at 2:33 PM
Ha...Ha...Ha... said...: Dear All

HA....HA.....HA......
Our church constitution gives the BOD a lot of power, so much so they think that they can control us.

HA....HA.....HA......

We shall control them in our giving. We will not give but save it until we have a new pastor then we will give all the tithes that is due.; November 25, 2008 at 2:55 PM
Peace n Goodwill said...: Eventhough we are very impatient and restless with what is happening but we thank God that He is fully aware of all the developments.

Let us continue to pray and pray that Pastors and BOD will have no peace till they come out to address the issues, lead the way to confess, repent and seek for healing and reconciliation in CC.

How to celebrate and be joyous as Christmas is round the corner? Christmas is meant to be a time of peace and goodwill among all men.

God have mercy on us all.; November 25, 2008 at 3:01 PM
Moving Forward said...: Eight months past since church AGM in March but Extended Ministries accounts are still outstanding.

Three months past since church EGM in August but moving forward with communication and constitutional review committee are still outstanding.

No wonder funds given for Indonesian earthquake fund never reach there...but sit in CIM fund

No wonder Wagra funds never reach intended place..but sit in CIM fund.

No wonder Board of Deacons never move forward..but sit in Turtle Company with Bro Patrick Wong as Admin. Head deacon; November 25, 2008 at 3:45 PM
bus conductor said...: Hi All,

No need to be "sian", just be patient lor. God is trying to build up our patience level.

No need to go away, it is God's church not PG's church. Just hang on & pray that the bus owner (God) will change the bus driver (PG) lor.

Meanwhile, besides praying we don't have to pay this bus driver. I am sure the owner will allow us to pay to other bus drivers after all He own all the buses.

Btw, let's get back to the voting on the fund proposed by Siew Chyuan; we were sidetracked by "sian liao" at 1.30pm. Maybe "sian liao" is a pro-PG supporter who was trying to sidetrack the voting.

Count me in, SC.; November 25, 2008 at 3:52 PM
Hate See No Moving Forward said...: Moving Forward???

Understand from TTG that no deacon calls them..even "Senor Pastoor" doesn't call.

What kind of leaders we have. Even as human beings, true leader calls. Don't say we are Christians.

Even political leaders behave better. Look at Obama - he can include once-rival Clinton as possible Secretary of State. Obama even met once-opponent McCain for the sake of the nation.

Christians cought have and should have done better. Look at Jesus as leader. Do we see Jesus in our pastors and deacons??? They could have and should have done better for the sake of Christ and God's Kingdom.

If Obama can learn from Lincoln in the book called 'Team of Rivals', how come our leaders cannot learn from Jesus in the book called 'The Bible'.

Otherwise, next year theme, 'God's Kingdom, our priority' remains rhetoric and slogan.

Please! Don't be a hypocrite..Full of words..but..never live His words. You and I can't be seen in this malaise. God forbids. Rise up!!!; November 25, 2008 at 4:32 PM
Going Backwards? said...: Absolutely right See No Moving Forward! Sad to say our Pastors and BOD preach and say one thing but do something else.

They say want to be Moving Forward but instead Going Backwards!

Make use of TTG recommendations and ignoring/excluding dissenting members from Constitution Review Committee and indirectly want to get credit by doing things their way....this we call Deception and Hoodwinking members.

Whenever any irregularities / discrepancies brought up to BOD or pastors they will counteract with something to rectify it! eg using lawyers and auditors!

We pray that leaders going for meeting will be alerted and speak up instead of being lulled into thinking BOD and Pastors doing a great job!

BE forewarned!; November 25, 2008 at 9:57 PM
been sitting n waiting til flowers bloom said...: I dunno bout the rest of u but I'm seriously fed up with the church leadership's response or lack of response for our cry of help. I doubt this sat's meeting will do any good, probably for the BOD to yakkity yak once more abt malicious allegations and the whole works.seriously, how long do we want to tahan this?; November 25, 2008 at 11:18 PM
TTG supporter said...: 1. It's sad to hear a deacon resigned. Hope it's not more sad to know of his reasons

2. Thanks unto God that we have people like Wong Hong Meng, Datuk KC Lim, Lim Siew Chyuan, Liza Low and many others.Because they stand up for us and God, we get to know more of how the church was run with many things kept away from members

3. Had Hong Meng did not pursue the extended ministries in the last AGM, we would never know that all extended ministries never belong to the church.

4. Had Liza did not pursue CIM for 2 years, we would never know that SP/Missions Dept/Deacons transferred millions into Senior Pastor's personal ministry but bearing Calvary's name in CIM.

5. Had Datuk KC and Siew Chyuan did not pursue WAGRA, we would never know that a lot of funds collected for faith promise were still in the CIM's sub-account.

The facts are frightening. Senior Pastor heads CIM, his wife heads bookshop, his daughter heads CLM and private schooling and his son heads CCM. Many of these ministries have funds running into millions and yet they are NOT ACCOUNTABLE to Board of Deacons and members. All these ministries are housed in the church, using church facilities, collecting money from unsuspecting members and these monies not considered as part of the church's finance.

Closer investigations show even more frightening facts - SP controls the Pastors and Deacons. Petrina controls the lady every Tuesday. Pam controls youth, education, counselling and private schooling. Jim controls communication, administration and now CCC.

Have you asked, "How the Deacons, the Pastors and Members have allowed this development?" These I cannot understand.; November 26, 2008 at 12:15 AM
Simple member said...: Hi Going Backwards?,

you mentioned lawyers and accountants. Btw, how much we paid the lawyer and accountant for the reports and their presence during the August EGM?

Guynes was flown in to handle the members. How much it cost the church for airfare (what class), accomodation and any fee since the whole EGM was professionally conducted by professionals?

Is the fund bore by church or Calvary International Ministries (CIM) since the EGM was about CIM and the whole problem caused by Senior Pastor who created this personal ministry?

Is the treasurer answerable by letting members know in this coming AGM?; November 26, 2008 at 12:29 AM
Dr Lum supporter said...: In view of Dr Lum's resignation, will there be an EGM to elect a new deacon to replace him?; November 26, 2008 at 12:50 AM
New Wondering said...: Dear TTG Supporter,

It sure sounds like a family dynasty.; November 26, 2008 at 6:41 AM
agree with Anon 2.25 said...: sounds good! :) go start the ball rolling!; November 26, 2008 at 8:18 AM
Anonymous said...: 26.10.08

URGENT APPEAL

Will some of you kindly let throw some light on what this Sat's meeting all about?

a) who are supposed to attend?
b) purpose of the meeting?
c) any agenda given?
d) will it be similar like our last egm ie. explanation by the appointed chairman (not known to anyone except the BOD) and definitely been briefed as to what to say?

As many of you should know most our TTG group are "already axed from leadership" so we are really in the dark so please fill us in with whatever details you know.

Please respond asap

abc; November 26, 2008 at 8:41 AM
one of the ex leaders said...: this sat. meet going to be a emotional one, or deceptive one? guess lah, i believe it is going to have a very long explaination why Dr lum resign, and probably all accusation will befall him, better pray mann, it is very scary again to think and imagine.

Sorrylah, all pastors and leaders of calvary church, we cannot have that simple 'TRUST' of every step you guys going to take; that is how bad+bad+bad our circumstances is now, and how bad+bad+bad our predicament is...

AOG, please be fair and loving, TTG is serious. We know how so bad+bad+bad things are, if only you really know, you will intervene quick enough!; November 26, 2008 at 9:16 AM
Going Backwards? said...: To: Simple member

You asked a few relevant and hard questions which I am also seeking. But sad to say BOD and pastors are like a secret society cuz they keep their mouths shut. Hence I also don't know the truth.

I heard they are sworn to secrecy and SP also said in AGM Church is different from corporate world no need to be transparent you have to trust them.

Lawyers also said what you give to church is absolute gift. You have no say where it goes to!! So I ask what if Church leaders are not truthful and honest? What happens to all our gifts? Gone already and you cry also no use!

Yes the way EGM was conducted in absolute bad faith! Taking us for a ride and hoodwinking all members, except this time many have had their blinders removed with The Holy Spirit's help and guidance.

We must appeal to BOD and pastors be honest and truthful and don't hide anymore. It is taking too long for you all to stand up for truth.

We ask for God's help to reveal the Truth to all members and worshippers in CC. Many new ones who come are still blurry about the true state of affairs in CC.; November 26, 2008 at 9:30 AM
AXED LEADER said...: Did u wonder why this Sat's Leaders' Mtg is held over 3 sessions at 2pm, 3pm & 4pm?

Why not in 1 seSsion as was previously done? Is it to divide & rule?

If so, may I suggest that all the leaders, who intend to attend the 2pm session, stay back for the 3pm seSsion when they will be better informed & they can then ask more searching questions.

Also the other leaders should not attend the 4pm session, this way all the leaders would be present TOGETHER at the 3pm session (including those who have to work on Sat morning).

UNITED WE STAND, DIVIDED WE FALL ...; November 26, 2008 at 9:45 AM
choice said...: Jeremiah 2:19:
Thine own wickedness shall correct thee, and thy backslidings shall reprove thee: know therefore and see that it is an evil thing and bitter, that thou hast forsaken the LORD thy God, and that my fear is not in thee, saith the Lord GOD of hosts.

We can choose to obey God and be blessed, or we can choose to disobey, and reap the consequences that lead to destruction.
No matter what our choices are today, they are ultimately creating our future because every choice that we make will either cause us to be blessed or cursed.

Another way to put it, is that things will get better or worse for us.
All choices have consequences. These consequences will be for our betterment or will work to destroy us.

We are also responsible for our choices.; November 26, 2008 at 9:45 AM
No More Hope said...: Does the Bible have something to say about people who plan evil things.

Possible reasons for this Sat mtg:

1. To counter what the members of the church have been talking about the church;

2. To give their 'supposedly good reason or reasons' why the church has done no wrong;

3. To ask for undivided support from the church leaders otherwise.......

Dont expect any good things from the meeting. Unfortunately most leaders will just listen and accept whatever is said and not seen as questioning the so called church leadership whether they are right or wrong.

How sad.; November 26, 2008 at 9:59 AM
His umbrella said...: Proverbs 29:1-2
1 He who, being often reproved, hardens his neck shall suddenly be destroyed -- and that without remedy.
2 When the (uncompromisingly) righteous are in authority, the people rejoice; but when the wicked man rules, the people groan and sigh.

These verses from Proverbs tell us those who become hardened when they are reproved for wrong doing, will suddenly be destroyed.
Also, when righteous people are in authority, people are rejoicing; however, when wicked men rule, the people groan and sigh.

The importance of heeding advice and correction.
Many people are stubborn and prideful, so they refuse to be disciplined and continue on in their path of destruction.
People who refuse correction bring the wrath of God upon themselves.

What is the wrath of God?

It is punishment for wrong doing. It is reaping the consequences for the sinful deeds one has committed.
When we fail to obey the Word of God, we open ourselves up to the attacks of the devil.
When we obey God and walk in faith, we are kept under His umbrella of protection and evil does not rain down on us.

However, if we refuse correction, we walk out from under that protection and the devil will pound us with his attacks.

Jeremiah 5:3:
O LORD, are not thine eyes upon the truth? thou hast stricken them, but they have not grieved; thou hast consumed them, but they have refused to receive correction: they have made their faces harder than a rock; they have refused to return.; November 26, 2008 at 10:21 AM
Reuters said...: Saw this under another Blog .....

His way said...
Stop giving is not the way to get their (Sp & BOD) attention, its THE ONLY WAY!

November 24, 2008 5:28 PM; November 26, 2008 at 10:21 AM
Christmas is LOVE said...: Woah! Strategic alliance now arr..3 different sessions of meeting on Saturday, like our sunday service hor..8am, preach one thing, 10.30am preach another thing, 5pm preach another+another thing...like dat, de leaders be careful, they group u under different group.1. super strong-supporter 2. strong supporter 3. average supporter

( rule and divide, divide and rule, american corportae strategy, sp, american influence, aiseh mann..)

Hey TTG, let us go for sun tzu art of war, guerilla war, cold turkey war, either one lah, we calvarites now in the war! Cham lar, like that how to go on?

LOVE-- we are dying for love, why war? SP and wife and deacons.. Christmas is LOVE.

No love for all ex-leaders and ex-staff and ex-ex-ex, no; also no LOVE; only when you got lots of money, you will be showered with LOVE.

AOG, please help for "peace war"; November 26, 2008 at 10:53 AM
Sendirian Berhad PG dan keluarga said...: Dear "TTG Supporter"

When I read what you had commented, my hear beat go very fast, I am terribly angry in this instant, usually when my heart beat go fast, it is not a good sign, at time, I am so afraid of heart attack, but thank God, I am still abit younger then most of you guys I guess, hence I still can 'tahan'

But, this type of dorminance and abuses and "sendirian berhad" is not acceptable in the church.

Dear voting members, please rise and I plead to you all, come together to halt this practice in calvary now.; November 26, 2008 at 11:12 AM
Suretoreport said...: har low (hello): Doubting

Sure go report--many already consented. True love is to discipline in accordance to relevant action..; November 26, 2008 at 12:12 PM
CYY said...: criminal lawyer and forensic auditor will be out of job if every christian and any normal people in the corporate and society can condone all wrong, criminal and cheating cases.

if only AOG can become a lawyer, an auditor, a criminal lawyer and a judge, all the above profession also will be out of job.

In calvary case, we need more than all the 3 above, we need police, and judge too!; November 26, 2008 at 12:32 PM
Non CC said...: Hi All,

First of all let me state that I am a non Calvary Church member. I have only been to Calvary Church two or three times in my entire life.

I have been reading this blog for sometime now. I understand (with my limited knowledge) the initial purpose of the TTG team is to setup Godly Governance especially in the area of Financial Management in CC. I believe this is an important case study for other churches and I hope there are some good outcome comes out from this episode of church life in CC. Every leaders (including Senior Pastors) are responsible to ensure the money that is given in the house of God is wisely distributed for the purpose of building HiS kingdom rather than our own kingdom.

But I have also noticed that readers of this blog are taking the opportunity to use the comments section to throw out their frustration and disappointments with PG and his family.In fact at some stage, past hurts are also being poured out. Well, it is important to address these issues but I don't think this is the right forum to address it. If we are not careful, we might hurts others who are not involved in this issue too. Remember not to divert the entire purpose and do focus on the what need to be achieved.

Finally, i trust that in such public forum like this, we need to be mindful of what we are sharing. The world is looking at us especially on how Christian react in situation like this. We need to be objective on our purpose and leave our emotion aside.

In the midst of fighting for truth, be mindful that the enemy of our soul might use our emotion and lead us into destruction.

I hope my comments are taken in a positive note.

My prayers and support are for you, the TTG team.

God Bless.; November 26, 2008 at 12:43 PM
CC member said...: Dear Non CC

Thank you for reminding us that we need to be careful with our words when we blog.
I do not know whether you understand the frustration and disappointment that we as CC members go through. We did everything we could in the Christian way that we can think of but we do not seem to achieve the truth and transparency that the church should have. It seems as though that we can not do anything but just watch and let what ever that is happening continue to happen.
We have tried to the best of our ability to be Christian in all ways.
I do hope that all reading this blog will understand that we do not want to hurt anybody intentionally.; November 26, 2008 at 12:55 PM
Special attention to NON CC said...: To : Non CC

I am afraid you may not know the deeper pain and hurt, you may just read not until you are personally hurt and rejected and dumped.

Whatever grievance that had beemn poured is legistimate.This blog would never exist without our current saga. This problem in the church does not occured only wef the date the blog was set up. the whole episode started way back years ago.

With lots of love and patience, the calvarite had been pursuing with the leadership but they had been rejected and humiliated in the church services, during the AGM and EGM, our duty as a christian is not to continue to protect and cover the wrongs as many and many had commented much earlier in this blog that it is God's divine timing and purpose.

This blog had caught lots of attention, support as well as rejection, so be it.

I as a blogger here, do not personally agree with you. It is too late.; November 26, 2008 at 12:57 PM
Non CC said...: Dear "CC Member" and "Special Attention to Non CC Member",

Thank you for your feedback. Just for your information, I have also served under a leadership which you are describing above. I know the pain and hurt being sidelined and being humiliated. Even to the extend being labeled as the "Trouble Maker". I know how it hurts when pulpit message are directed to me. I know when you are literally put in a "cold storage". I was there for 11 years until the Lord make a way and move me to another city.

I am not undermining your struggles or your pain. During my struggle, I ask myself, is it worth it for me to stay and serve? Should I just leave the church and go elsewhere? The Lord reminded me of what Jesus has to go through while carrying the cross to Golgota.

My prayer is that the Lord will heal the pain/wound/brokenness and that HE will bring justice to the cause that you are fighting for. Romans 12:19 says Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.”

Thank you and God Bless.; November 26, 2008 at 1:24 PM
NiceAdvice said...: to: non cc

Still too late. I agreed with the two who responded to you. So sorry for all the nice advice. We had passed this stage.; November 26, 2008 at 1:30 PM
Winslow said...: Dear non CC,

Thank you for your kind concern and comments.

As regard your quote, Romans 12:19 "Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, 'Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.' is out of context, I'm sorry to say it.

We at TTG are not seeking vengeance, you have to get it right. We're only seeking TTG, which stands for Truth, Transparency and Good Governance, just in case you're not aware.

Yes, we will leave the final punishment to God, but we want to see TTG restored in CC, as simple as that.

So, my brother/sister, we thank you for your concern but you've got us all wrong. We're not after vengeance, so please please don't simply quote scripture, for if it's out of context, it "hurts", frankly speaking.

God bless; November 26, 2008 at 1:41 PM
Ah Lian said...: Yes, Winslow, you're right. A reminder to all our kind fellow believers, with all your good intentions, please refrain from quoting scripture as if bloggers here are all young believers. Many are believers for many years - 20, 30, 40 and even 50 years. So be sensitive to the Spirit of God before you start throwing scripture around. We must do it with discernment. Ask the Holy Spirit first. Pray before you blog, OK. I don't think it's too much to ask. Thanks and God bless.; November 26, 2008 at 1:49 PM
Integrity said...: Dear Non CC

You said,
"Finally, i trust that in such public forum like this, we need to be mindful of what we are sharing. The world is looking at us especially on how Christian react in situation like this. We need to be objective on our purpose and leave our emotion aside."

Yes I agree with you that this is a public forum and please do understand why do we need such a forum:
1. PG transfer MILLIONS to personal ministry without members approval.(COVETEOUSNESS)
2. PG is not acting the Christian way to solve the problem.
3. PG has betrayed our trust.
4. PG conducted a witch hunt on leaders that had served in this church.
5. PG deceived us
6. PG lied to the members.
7. PG has lost his integrity
8. PG has lost his creditibility.
9. PG still think he has done nothing wrong.
10.PG told us to jump into the lake.
11.PG told us to go to another church.
12.PG told us no need to buy expensive clothes but he is wearing M10K suits, RM2K shoes.
13.PG told us not to invest on earth but he has so many properties.
14.PG told us to sacrifice but he is driving expensive cars.

You have been to Calvary 2 or 3 times, but we have been here even before PG came to Calvary. And many are here for many years.

Many are dissillutioned and hurt because they have given a lot of money (some by the millions) to mission, thinking that it really goes to mission.

THEREFORE many throw their fustration here because this happened since March 08 and none of the leaders stood up to rectify the situation.

You must thank GOD if you are attending another church and need not have to go through the pain. If you really care for us please pray for us. We do covet your prayers.

Many of us are very, very hurt.
Only GOD knows how hurt we are.; November 26, 2008 at 1:53 PM
Ah Beng No. 2 said...: Dear non CC,

Better still if you can get your whole church to intercede for us. We need prayer support. We need to PUSH. God bless.; November 26, 2008 at 2:07 PM
Truth nothing but Truth said...: Dear Non CC,

You mentioned,
"During my struggle, I ask myself, is it worth it for me to stay and serve? Should I just leave the church and go elsewhere? The Lord reminded me of what Jesus has to go through while carrying the cross to Golgota."

Praise God for what Jesus went through while carrying the cross to Golgota.
Salvation will not be mine if HE abandon it halfway. Thank You Lord Jesus for carrying the cross for us all the way.

Thank You for the cross, Lord

Likewise, I am so thankful that God raised the TTG. And the cross that the TTG is carrying is:
1. The cross of TRUTH
2. The cross of TRANSPARENCY
3. The cross of GOOD GOVERNANCE.

Praise the Lord that He lead you to another city.
But for us the Lord did not call us to another city.

Do pray for TRUTH to PREVAILS; November 26, 2008 at 2:18 PM
light burden said...: A wounded spirit who can bear?
Is there no balm in Gilead?
Is there no physician there?
Why then is not the health of the daughter of my people recovered?

The Lord hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek: he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to comfort all that mourn; to appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness.

Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.; November 26, 2008 at 2:55 PM
blur blur said...: Dear light burden,
What are you try to say ar??? Can be more direct and straight forward ar?
Nowadays lots of preaching being preached but all got hiden meaning wan....very confusing lar...; November 26, 2008 at 3:22 PM
Light Burden said...: Dear blur,blur

God will lighten TTG burden if we commit it to Him; November 26, 2008 at 3:55 PM
Anonymous said...: 10 feel NOT so good years says,

Dear Sharon,
You said

"Somehow, something had gone wrong 10 years or so ago. I had been in calvary for almost 25 years, it was fine those early days. Hence, I dont think its fair to blame who and who for breaking up the church but rather its the leadership."

I think you are very discerning. Those who were in leadership and are in leadership have the answers!!!!!

To people Light Burden please stop preaching to us.; November 26, 2008 at 4:08 PM
ROAD TO HEAVEN said...: Dear light burden,

Your comment "God will lighten TTG burden if we commit it to Him" insinuate that the TTG group are waging this battle on their own human strength.

I understand that the TTG group are of the opinion that they have been raised individually by God to seek to bring Truth, Transparency & good Governance (TTG) back to CC. It seems that some of them did not know each other prior to Mar 08.

Anyway, the TTG group is known to commit their meetings in opening & closing prayers as they know that it is His battle & not theirs. Perhaps, God raise them to be Roadblocks to prevent PG, APs & BOD from going to Hell (just as what PG preached some years ago).

King David fell to his feet in repentance when rebuked by Nathan. Does PG think he is above King David? If so, PG is doing so at his own peril & to the disappointment of the TTG group who would love to see him in Heaven.; November 26, 2008 at 4:16 PM
Anonymous said...: 10 feel NOT so good years says,

I think what Light Burden is saying is SP and BOD will lighten TTG burden ( to give more in your tithes, fulfill your 'faith promises' etc) if we commit it to them.?

This Saturday meeting doesn't bode well for TTG group

1. Plan afoot to kick out TTG and supporters from CC. Most identifed.

2. To justify 'kicking' out Dr. Lum?

3. ?; November 26, 2008 at 4:18 PM
Not sure said...: I shall stay and persevere. I shall be the torn in your flesh. I shall be the salt in your wound. I shall remind you of your deeds. I shall not, I shall not be moved!

Seek TRUTH
Seek TRANSPARENCY
Seek GOVERNANCE

Seek GOD.

Thank you brothers and sisters in CC. I am now asSUREd. Thank you for the many encouragement posted in the blog and for those that are not blogging as such. Shall STAY ON until TTG is prevailed in CC.; November 26, 2008 at 4:21 PM
We're Royal Priesthood Too said...: Dear Light Burden,

Please don't assume that we don't commit our burden to Him. And please also don't assume we're doing this in the flesh. And please please don't blog with the "Holier Than Thou" attitude.; November 26, 2008 at 4:26 PM
Anonymous said...: 10 feel NOT so good years says,

Dear Integrity you said

1. PG transfer MILLIONS to personal ministry without members approval.(COVETEOUSNESS)
2. PG is not acting the Christian way to solve the problem.
3. PG has betrayed our trust.
4. PG conducted a witch hunt on leaders that had served in this church.
5. PG deceived us
6. PG lied to the members.
7. PG has lost his integrity
8. PG has lost his creditibility.
9. PG still think he has done nothing wrong.
10.PG told us to jump into the lake.
11.PG told us to go to another church.
12.PG told us no need to buy expensive clothes but he is wearing M10K suits, RM2K shoes.
13.PG told us not to invest on earth but he has so many properties.
14.PG told us to sacrifice but he is driving expensive cars.

Can you be more precised or else we will considered it half truth.

In "14" you say he drives expensive cars. What type of car? Did someone gifted him or he paid it himself. So if its a calvarite then what was the giver's motivation? Wouln't a true christian donate it to church? If PG paid it himself where did he get the funds? Is it from Calvary funds? Please Please I need answers. Kepala Pusing tak boleh tahan sian sian la; November 26, 2008 at 4:43 PM
Sharon said...: Dear blur blur

God gave us all discerning spirit when we yield unto Him, what soever the ' cyber preacher ' here preached..let it be.

I am definitely very 'cheese off' with people persistently advised CT and bloggers to stop, to go other church, to be gentle and nice, we had had enough, if sp n wife no resign, the blog will still go on..who cares. To me, what is the gospel of Jesus Christ? are we to keep the pastor's profession as a profession or are the pastors themselves suppose to serve Christ which is the gospel...; November 26, 2008 at 6:21 PM
the truth is out there said...: Now that the church is going to have a meeting with the leaders, I pray that the leaders will also pray that God will guide them in their thoughts so that they will be able to see the truths and half-truths that will be presented to them.

One possible reason why there is three meetings is because the church is able to control a group of smaller participants than a big group. Imagine this: when you belong to a small group and if you voice out an objection or an opinion or a suggestion that is not in line with the church's thinking you got all the BOD, AP and possibly PG and SAP glaring at you. In a bigger group, you probably find others in your group supporting you and adding in the discussion. This is a psychological warfare used to intimidate, control or compelling the other party to bend to your will.

Another point to note is that the church i.e. the BOD, AP's and PG AND SAP will have done their homework and brainstorming sessions and rehearsals on their agendas. So when the leaders go to the meeting, they will be attending an orchestrated meeting.Have the leaders who are attending the meeting been given the agenda? Most probably not!

Why I say this? It's because I had done this before in my work. I will call the manager, human resource staffs and others for such a session going through all the possibilities before meeting the in-house union committee. And in most cases, the employer ends up triumphant because we know how to twist and turn each situation to our advantage according to our needs.; November 26, 2008 at 6:41 PM
Not so sly said...: PG is a sly strategist. Give him some credit man. Even before each BOD meeting, he will summon individual BOD members to his office at different times to strategise before the whole board meets. Of course he will get the yes-men on his side before meeting the whole board. He's sly. Looks like he's deploying same MO here.; November 26, 2008 at 6:50 PM
The Truth is Still Out There said...: Leaders, Please read this comment from one of your AXED comerade,

AXED LEADER said...
Did u wonder why this Sat's Leaders' Mtg is held over 3 sessions at 2pm, 3pm & 4pm?

Why not in 1 seSsion as was previously done? Is it to divide & rule?

If so, may I suggest that all the leaders, who intend to attend the 2pm session, stay back for the 3pm seSsion when they will be better informed & they can then ask more searching questions.

Also the other leaders should not attend the 4pm session, this way all the leaders would be present TOGETHER at the 3pm session (including those who have to work on Sat morning).

UNITED WE STAND, DIVIDED WE FALL ...

November 26, 2008 9:45 AM; November 26, 2008 at 6:55 PM
the truth is out there said...: Referring to my comments at 6:41pm, I better explain the phrase "....we know how to twist and turn...." before I get reprimanded for my choice of words.

What I meant is that one can select different words to put forward a thought, an opinion or a suggestion though in the end it means the same thing. eg: I can tell my subordinate to (a)"Do it as I say" or (b)"why not we try it my way". See the difference: (a) is an order, (b) is subtle and he still feels that some respect is also given to him. So, no, I do not mean to cheat, exploit or give half-truth or in extremes lie.; November 26, 2008 at 9:16 PM
To Catch A Thief said...: May I suggest that Dr. Lum & his wife attend all the three meetings that have been scheduled for the leaders? This way, Dr. Lum would be able to have a first-hand observation of the meetings as well as to quell any untruths that the BOD & SP are trying to impart to mind-control the leaders.

Aiyoh-yoh, I left the blog for just three days and I now have such a lot of 'catching-up' to do!; November 26, 2008 at 9:46 PM
Mission OTM said...: Dear Brothers and Sisters,

Let us not speculate what will happen on this Saturday's leaders meetings. Let us instead pray for the fear of God to be heavy upon the hearts and minds of each and everyone there.

Be steadfast on our believe that the TRUTH shall prevail. Let the Love of Jesus Christ overwhelms us.

The REVIVAL is taking place. It is not according to our terms, it is by HIS terms.; November 26, 2008 at 10:01 PM
Art Of War said...: Excuse me, Mission OTM....but may i inquire what OTM means?

BTW, you sound very much like the BOD with their "let God be God" mentality! Hope I'm not offending you....

It's just that you are assuming that we are not praying already!!! Of course, we believe that the Revival will be on His terms, we've never said that it will be on our terms, wot?...You should ask, What else can we do apart from praying? We should do what is humanly possible for us to do, but the rest we will leave to God! It is not really speculating but more of planning what is the best thing to do next...every good general does this in time of war! And if you still don't think we are 'in a state of war,' please read Sun Tzu's "Art Of War" which every good CEO has done!

So please try not to push that "Let God Be God" thingy on us...lah!; November 26, 2008 at 10:45 PM
abc said...: hm....thanks for all those comments (regret not really answers to my questions given earlier)

a) who are supposed to attend?
b) purpose of the meeting?
c) any agenda given?
d) will it be similar like our last egm ie. explanation by the appointed chairman (not known to anyone except the BOD) and definitely been briefed as to what to say?

I believe we are all guessing and speculating because the ones who called for the meeting NEVER tell in advance or issue agenda.

In simple words if leaders do not know what to expect, they will not be prepared to ask questions!!! So leaders, if you are reading this blog, PRAY very hard that the Lord will help you to discern the truth and give you courage to stand up for TTG.

It is up to you to help pursue TTG
since the core group of teh tarik members are not eligible to attend the Sat meetings. One big comfort is that THE LORD TOO WILL BE THERE as it is HIS CHURCH!!

abc; November 26, 2008 at 11:40 PM
PRESS THE BUTTON said...: By kicking out the TTG and its supporters out of CC will only push them to press the BUTTON without any hesitation!; November 26, 2008 at 11:53 PM
SS said...: anonymous 4.43pm ask question on Sp car. SP drives Volvo XC90 Suv. Cost about rm400k. When he got it, he told deacons someone give him as gift.

Heard one of TTG member, Bro KC did search at JPJ n discover the car bought under hire purchase with one bank. After he show deacons the search rpt, then heard SP suddenly change story little bit,saying someone in singapore paying his instalments, so it is a gift.

How to believe SP? Got such person-ah got no money to buy the car but want to give SP such expensive car on instalment? Sp think we fools to believe.

Also SAP's car Honda civic is also a gift from another singaporean. Dunno what to think some more.; November 27, 2008 at 12:06 AM
Stop All These Nonsense said...: Dont think too much otherwise we will become cucoo.

Better spend time praying and thinking how to stop all these nonsense.; November 27, 2008 at 12:11 AM
Mission OTM said...: Dear Art of War,

OTM stands for Of the Missions or On The Move that depends on when was that occurred to me.

I do not know how exactly the "Let God be God" sound when uttered by the BOD but can imagine the hurts it has caused to many by reading from the postings. Be assured, that never was my intention. The call is for all. All the more for me, one who is easily affected by the emotion and quick to react. What I am saying is that I need to pray more and talk less. More so it is about an event yet to occur, and one that is so SECRETIVE. For that, I rather pray for the wisdom of God to be bestowed upon all the leaders that they are not sway from TRUTH. That they will not fear man but to act BOLDLY according to their convictions in Christ.

I do not assume others do not pray but certainly there are amongst us needing to pray more, just like me. Let us not be irritated with "Let God be God!". Aren't God is very much more than what humans by nature cannot be?

For that Good Night and God Bless!; November 27, 2008 at 12:52 AM
JOE BLACK said...: hi folks,
i did keep away for a while to just stand back to see a bigger picture.they are many well wishes or with good intention making comments here. but i see mostly they parting words will be please WE SHOULD NOT DO THIS OR THAT YOU KNOW THE WHOLE CHRISTIAN WORlD WILL BE AFFECTED.
so far NONE has offer any solution. expecially those who have an office of authority. ie AG or NECF.
please do not tell us that the blog is a wrong platform to have believe it or not much prayer has being soak in before using this avenue to seek TTG.

if you do not have a better solution i hope you will pray along and hope this saga will end soon .i.e truth ,transparency n governaces being restore.
We attend Calvary for many years we want it to be beyond reproach.We want this church to represent christ.Anyone out there have a solution so the church will not affect the community of christian testimony.
IF OUR PROBLEM IS ALSO YOUR PROBLEM PLEASE STEP FORWARD TO HELP IF YOU DONT THINK YOU CAN HELP THEN JUST PRAY .DON'T ADVICE US AGAINST USING THIS BLOG AS A PLATFORM BECAUSE AT HAND THEY IS NO OTHER AVENUE .

ANOTHER HURT CHRISTIAN.; November 27, 2008 at 1:05 AM
ZZLL said...: Yeah. Joe Black, agree with you, many of us already so burnt out, painful, hurting, grieving, discouraged, distrubed, ashamed, 'cannot lift up our head' rejected, unwanted, cold-turkey and etc.
These people who seemingly think that they gave the best and godly advice by throwing in words to simply ask us to stop blogging.

I felt that they are no different from "Lion King".

We shall all blog, until God said stop, right? We all had been praying too, just in case another one come in and advice to to pray. If we dont pray, long ago, all of us already left the church or simply burnt out.; November 27, 2008 at 9:02 AM
Art Of War said...: Dear Mission OTM,

Thank you for your patient explanantion. Yes, I do believe in prayer, especially warfare prayer because PG's mind-control over the BOD & other leaders of the church is actually spiritual in nature.

1.The way he controls the whole deacon-nomination process shows he is practising mind-control, so as to eliminate those who oppose him and to slot in those who are his 'yes-men.'
2. The way he orchestrates every BOD meeting by first talking to each deacon in private, is another indication that he mind-controls the deacons to agree to his every scheme & not to collaborate with one another against him. Any one who dares to go against his plans will be deemed as UNSUBMISSIVE TO HIS AUTHORITY, a great sin in the eyes of Pastors!
3. To seperate the Saturday meeting into 3 groups of leaders is another way of PG to control the minds of the leaders.

Yes, indeed, we are in a state of war! Let us pray hard to PULL DOWN the strongholds in CC as well as in the minds of PG, APs, BOD and the church leaders! We have to pray against the STRONGMAN and bind him first before we can plunder his goods, Jesus tells us!

Show no mercy for we wil receive none (The Return Of The King)!; November 27, 2008 at 10:45 AM
cell group leader's friend said...: To: all

I bumped into a cell group leader and he appeared blurred with regards to this Saturday meeting. I think some of the leaders were not called for the meeting.

Please check with your friends who are leaders, which session are they called to attend. You will be surprised some of them were not called.--Strange!; November 27, 2008 at 12:15 PM

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