(EGM Update Part II)
We have tabulated the figures presented to the members at the EGM into the tables below for easy understanding:-
CCC PROJECT COST as reported
RM’ Millions | |||
Prior to Phase 1A | 38.6 | Foundation, sub-structure, Nam Fatt’s claims | |
Phase 1A | |||
- incurred and paid | 11.7 | ||
- committed and contracted | 63.6 | ||
Total Phase 1A | 73.5 | After anticipated savings of 1.8m | |
Consultants Fees | 5.8 | ||
Phase 1B | |||
-Preliminary | 2.2 | ||
-Architectural | 11.72 | ||
-ID | 12.0 | ||
-M&E | 38.43 | ||
-Other Ancillaries | 17.7 | ||
Total for Phase 1B | 82.1 | ||
Total for Phase 1A & 1B | 200.0 |
Our Estimated Eventual CCC Project Cost
Land Cost (plus incidentals): | 36.0 | ||
Phase 1A & 1B | 200.0 | ||
Phase 2 (estimate) | 50.0 | ||
Capitalized Interest during construction (estimate) | 15.0 | ||
Total Estimated CCC Cost | 301 | excluding loan interest during the 10-year repayment period |
If and when the CCC is fully completed, it would be at a whooping cost of RM301 million.
RM301 million for a 5,000-seating church works out to RM60,200 per seat. All the big churches in the Klang Valley incurred between RM8,000 to RM12,000 per seat. A reasonable cost per seat is RM10,000.
A good example is The Blessed Church in Kuching which is building a 5,000-seating church with a 1,000-seating chapel at a total cost of RM50 million only. Although the land cost is cheaper in Kuching, the construction cost is higher there.
On average, one can easily build a church that sits 200 to 400 persons for RM2 million. Based on this amount, with RM301 million, we can build 150 churches, which would translate to having a total of 58,000 seats!
Spending RM200-300 million for a church of 5,000-seating capacity is a sheer waste of the Lord’s money. This is a classic example of very bad stewardship and the egoistic ambition of a man.
FORECAST FUNDING POSITION as reported
RM’ Millions | |||
200.0 | Partially completed building only | ||
Less: paid up to end 2010 | 43.3 | ||
Balance Funding required | 156.7 | ||
Funds Available: | |||
At end 2010 Fixed Deposits | 26.5 | ||
Projected surpluses 2011/12 | 12.2 | Prior to completion of CCC | |
Secured Bank Loans | 43.0 | ||
81.7 | |||
Balance to be raised | 75.0 | Additional bank loan being sought |
Although the Deacon expressed confidence in securing an additional bank loan of RM75 million, it is easier said than done. Assuming the bank grants the loan at a margin of finance of 70%, the Church will have to provide collateral of about RM107 million to the Bank.
Since the CCC land and the Damansara Perdana (DP) Church building have already been charged to the Banks for the RM43 million loans, the remaining properties are insufficient to obtain an additional RM75 million loan.
REPAYMENT OF LOANS as reported
RM’ Million | ||
Existing Bank Loans | 43.0 | |
Additional Bank Loan | 75.0 | |
Total bank Loans | 118.0 | |
Repayment: | ||
Share of Condo Project Profit (JV) | (50.0) | |
Disposal of 5 bungalows in DH | (35.0) | |
Balance of Loan not repaid | 33.0 | |
Members Advances outstanding | 6.0 | |
Estimated Loan interest for 10 years | 30.0 | |
Balance to be repaid over 10 years | 69.0 |
The Loan repayment of RM69m over 10 years works out to RM6.9m per year or RM575,000 per month. The church claims that the amount is within their ability to repay as this is the average monthly income surplus in the first quarter of 2011.
The assumptions made by the Church leadership are:-
1) There will be a projected income surplus of RM12.2 million over 2011-2012.
2) The additional bank loan of RM75 million can be secured
3) The Condo project JV will generate a net profit of RM50 million
4) The 5 DH bungalows can be sold for RM35 million
5) The church will continue to generate an income surplus of RM575,000 per month for the next 10 years to repay the loans.
Here are some reasons why we have doubts about the Church leaderships’ assumptions and why the assumptions are misleading and not achievable.
1) The Church’s Income Surplus has been dropping over the last 2-3 years and with TOTT (turn off the tap) stance taken by many members, the surplus can be expected to drop further. Therefore, the projected income surplus of RM12.2 million over 2011-2012 may not be realized. With even more members leaving after the recent conclusion of the court proceedings, we can expect the offering and tithes to dip even further this year and going forward. The continued lack of transparency and accountability will put off some of the remaining congregation from giving.
2) As stated earlier, it will not be easy to secure the additional loan of RM75 million. If they cannot get the additional RM 75million loan, they will not be able to even start Phase 1B. What would have been accomplished then would just be a shell and core of the main building. It may be protected from the elements and deterioration but it will be an unusable building.
3) It was not explained whether the projected RM50 million profit from the JV is an ‘after tax” or “before tax’ profit. Obviously, any income from non-church activities is taxable. If the projected profit is “before tax”, then the net profit will be less than RM50 million.
However, the more pertinent question is how is the RM50 million profit from the JV achievable?
If Calvary Church is entitled to RM50 million profit, then obviously, the JV partner will also get at least RM50 million profit from the development. To achieve a RM100 million profit from a residential development, the gross development value must be at least RM300 million to be viable.
The small land size of 1.75 acres at a road corner, with its triangular shape, does not provide much flexibility in layout planning. At most, it can accommodate a single tower block of serviced apartments. The configuration could range from a high density 400-unit condo tower to a low density 150-unit tower with prices ranging from RM750,000 to RM2 million each.
The question is would anyone buy such expensive apartments in a middle-class neighbourhood and which fronts onto a congested, busy and noisy highway with poor road access.
4) Targeting to sell the 5 DH bungalows for RM35 million or RM7 million per lot is certainly a tall order. All the 5 bungalows have been converted for church use and are no longer suitable for residential dwelling. Therefore, the buyers will only be paying for the land.
At an average of 6,000 sq ft per lot and at say, a discounted price of RM300 per sq ft (assuming buyers are willing to fork out such a price to live next door to a church), the 5 lots will only generate a total proceeds of RM9 million, which is way below the projected amount of RM35 million.
5) Based on the current scenario and the dwindling membership, it does not appear that the monthly Income surplus of RM575,000 as anticipated by the church is maintainable. Therefore, the church’s ability to repay the loan is in question.
6) The church has also not factored in the maintenance cost of the CCC. Time and again, the leaders have skirted this major issue. A simple arithmetic will reveal the scary figures. If the CCC costs RM300 million and using basic accounting principles of depreciation of say, over 50 years, it would require RM6 million a year just to maintain the building in its fair condition.
7) Coupled with the running costs of the massive facility like electricity for the lighting and air-conditioning, this will wipe out all the income surplus, the church is expecting. That means the church will never be able to pay off the bank loans which in turn, means that it is a matter of time, the banks will foreclose and auction off the CCC and possibly whatever properties that are also charged to the banks. CCC can destroy Calvary Church .
The possibility of a financial catastrophe for Calvary Church is real. Borrowing such large amounts to build the CCC monument is akin to subjecting the church to the bondage of financial slavery. Borrowing and pledging all the assets built up by the members over the last 50 years makes the church a slave to the banks.
Rev. Susan Tang in her latest book “Prayers in the End Times” wrote:
“Israel was not related to God, they were related only to their religious system and this provoked God to anger. God felt anger each time they mentioned, not His name, but their temple – that beautiful, gold –laden, majestic and spectacular building. What is this grand artifact without the presence of God? Did you know that God allowed this beautiful building to be crushed, defiled and destroyed?
‘Do not trust in these lying words; saying, the temple of the Lord, the temple of the Lord, the temple of the Lord are these.’ (Jeremiah 7:4)”
This is the attitude of the pastors of Calvary Church . PG’s wife actually told the leaders that after CCC is completed, all those who left will come back because it would be such a beautiful building. PG is also known to have such unscriptural thinking. He once told a young pastor, “Get the people in, the money will follow.” He has turned the house of God into a den of thieves.
If CCC is completed with bank borrowings, Calvary Church will continue to neglect the poor for another ten years. Rev. Susan Tang wrote, “God had no intention of taking the poor out of the land. He purposely left them for us to take care of them because He wanted to deal with our character of selfishness and greed….Modern-day Christianity today hardly does prayers nor remembers the poor on a consistent basis. We do concerts and rallies and conserve money to build monumental buildings. The concentration is on the rich, not the poor because the poor have no money to contribute to our church building and when they come, they give our beautiful multi-storey buildings a poor image. In order to relieve our conscience, we do remember to give them a little hamper, a ‘shoebox’ of goodies, some shoes and clothes at Christmas and then we forget about them until the next Christmas.”
Rev. Susan Tang continues,
God’s word is clear on this:
- wealth acquired with a ‘closed heart’ towards the poor will bring an active curse (Amos 5:11).
- that if we neglect our duty towards them His love cannot dwell in us for neglect of the poor is sin against God (1 John 3:17, James 2:5-9, 5:1-4).
- where we will be in eternity depends on our attitudes towards them (Matthew 25:31-46)
- taking care of them will secure for us blessings from above! We need not pray for blessings, they will come as we bless the poor. So much of our ‘bless me’ prayers is useless if we neglect the poor (Psalm 41)”
97 comments:
Decision-making for a church is important for God's work.
In CC coming AGM, there will be election for 4 deacons. Out of the 8 candidates, 3 are incumbents seeking reelection. Out of the other 5, 3 are ladies and 2 men. Out of 3 ladies, 2 are singles and 1 divorcee/remarried (Is divorcee qualified to be a deaconess?). The 2 men - no comments!
But the BIG QUESTION : Deacons are critical now more than ever when CC is heading towards building a RM300M CCC! Ministries wise, are these candidates competent? No belittling but this is all CC have and this is all PG wants!This shows how insecure PG is. Where is Excellence? Where is Dynamism?
We can only pray..God, have mercy for CC.
CONGRATULATIONS ON BEING SUCESSFULLY BEING VOTED IN BY YOURSELVES TO BE CONVERTED INTO DEBTORS!!I DOUBT IF THE MONEY TALK WILL EVER CEASE AT CC.WITH THE LATEST DEVELOPMENTS- THERE IS BOUND TO BE MORE BEGGING FOR MONEY FOR MANY YEARS TO COME. ONCE AGAIN- CONGRAGULATIONS TO ALL THE DECEIVED AT CC.
ON A LIGHTER NOTE I READ THE WRITE UP ON TEH TARIK PASTOR. HE SHOULD BE THANKFUL FOR HIS PASTOR- MINE IS ADDICTED TO VIDEO GAMES.ANYWAY WHY WOULD THE PASTOR GO UP TO DO HIS WORK- ITS NOT LIKE A KIND OF BUSINESS THAT WILL BRING HIM THE $$$.GIVE HIM SOME PROMISE ABOUT $$$, AN INCREMENT OR MAYBE A FULLY PAID TRIP TO LANGKAWI AND HE WILL BE SURE TO GET BUSY.THAT WAS OUR CASE WITH OUR PASTOR.JUST BE CONTENT- LOH!!! WHAT YOU PAY IS WHAT YOU GET.PAY PEANUTS AND YOU ATTRACT MONKEYS!!!
BYE-BYE FOLKS.
LETS BUILD ANOTHER CHURCH CLUB.
With the latest development I dont think CC will be interested in evangelizing the poor- after all what can they contribute to the future CCC complex?
To all the other AOG Pastors who are already trying to put up bigger buildings and calling it a church- remember- you can never outdo SP- because he has a bigger ego a than yours.
And who is going to inherit CCC after he is gone- any ideas?
GET THE PEOPLE IN,THE MONEY WILL FOLLOW.. EH?? SP
THIS IS A VERY NICE VALUE SYSTEM.
OUT OF THE ABUNDANCE OF THE HEART, THE MOUTH SPEAKETH. JC.
Has anyone the "Word of the Lord" as to how the CC saga will end? What has gotten into SP? RM50 million has swelled to RM200 million? Is there no right thinking individual at CC right now? Is he sure he will see the completion of CCC?
LUKES GOSPEL
"This is what I will do... I will tear down my barns and build greater..."
Judgment: Fool...tonight your soul shall be required from you..and all that you have got .. whose is it going TO be....?
SP ANSWER: NO PROBLEM GOD....I HAVE IT ALL FIGURED OUT....sell this for $$$$.... borrow from $$$$$....pressure the flock for $$$$$$......ask the flock for $$$ that they have access to(EPF,fixed deposits,reserve money for exisgencies..
GOD: WHAT ABOUT YOUR OWN FIXED DEPOSITS?
SP: WHAT?? ITS REALLY NOT UNDER MY NAME..ER...WELL AI AM NOT THE LEGAL OWNER...
Verdict: SP is a backslidden devil right now, hes extremely conniving in money matters, and I believe he is heading for a chastisement from above.He has got a new baptism right now- deceive,outmanuever, cast a spell over the flock...
There has risen in our midst a rogue Pastor--hell bent to build his church complex.He should have just gone into the business world.The whole of the AOG has gone to the dogs.
A FAMILY'S VOICE.
Based on CT's estimates, each seat in CCC will cost a whopping RM60,200.
City Harvest Church at Suntec is estimated to cost S310 mil. with a seating capacity of 12,000. This works out to be approximately S25,830 per seat
Before CHC moved in, the Urban Redevelopment Authorities in Singapore issued new guidelines recently that restrict the use of commercial buildings for religious purposes and CHC had to scale back the seating to 7500. This is approximately S41,330 per seat. However this figure will probably be reduced because Suntec will compensate CHC for the restriction.
Compare this with CCC's RM60,200 and one cannot think otherwise except that the building cost is beyond logical imagination. Will CCC have gold-plated toilet seats or platinum door handles?
During the first service at Suntec, it was a big fanfare ocassion with huge LED screens and those who attended the service were given 3D glasses.
When the Membership Lists were on display before the EGM, it listed about 750+ voting members and almost the same number of associate members.
Came the EGM, only 230 voting members were present of which about one-third are those with vested interest and their family.
What happened to the other voting members? This is about 30 percent of the total. Make an educated guess. Since the agenda was to ask for approval to increase the building cost, many kept away for fear that they will be coerced into giving substantially or make a pledge. Dear bro. Ngeow, the writing is on the wall!
TOTT is working well and members are more discerning now. As Beyond Imagination said "Will CCC have gold-plated toilet seats?"
It is sad to know that man constantly abuses God's name to build such a hyper extravagant building. From 100m to 150m, 200m, 250m,....like an open cheque. Where is the financial prudence and accountability?
Last Sunday the Membership Lists on the Notice board listed 649 voting members and 651 associate members. Anonymous said there were 750+ voting members and almost the same number of associate members before the EGM. Wah! Membership in CC whether voting or associate is so so fluid. In such a short space of time it can change by a hundred! Membership in CC is like playing "masak-masak".
The attendance for the EGM is such a poor show. Wonder what will be the response at the AGM.
And kudos to David Peter for submitting a proposal that will gag members further. Nicely worded but in reality it is so well disguised to gag members and prevent members from seeking recourse in the courts. With the constitution already flawed and heavily in favour of PG, the new proposal will more or less turn CC into a police or communist state where no one can question the actions of the leaders. Otherwise you will be axed! Too bad Hitler is history, otherwise he can learn a trick or two from PG.
In the annual report, it was so merrily put that the reduced income is compensated by members' advances. Are you joking! Nice but the church still has to pay back. As long as the advances are not repaid, it is still a debt. True to form, CC is so good at churning out news that give one a "feel good" picture.
To the Deacons,
For such huge project, there is no transparent financial check and balance. Big cost escalations were easily approved.
All the times, members were "forced' to vote in the meeting there and then with broad, loose and meaningless financial figures provided by the Deacons. These figures could hardly help the members in making wise decision and voting. It appeared that the Deacons' intention was deliberate - Just get a "Yes" from poorly informed members and the rest of details, you as members, should not even know.
It's Time for Deacons with conscience to stand up and practise more financial transparancy. In corporate world, a 10% increase in cost would attract major inquiry and debate, to justify such increase.
All donations are hard earned money and sacrifice. It is the duty of individual Deacons to account, for how every single cent is spent PRUDENTLY AND WISELY, to God and the members,transparently.
If CC is in financial trouble because of wrong assumptions, CC will be a target and case example of bad financial management. That will adversely affect the image and fund raising prospects of future church building and church growth.
Deacons, before you sleep, ask yourselves, have you live up to the highest standard of scrutiny and expectation. God cannot be fooled.
Even as we are walking in "days of terror and uncertainity as evidenced by natural disasters all around the planet on an "increasing scale" with more "surprises to come" from the heavens itself, mankind including "all Malaysians" of course, are going about their normal selfish and indulgent ways seeking material riches and gains while ethics and morals plunge into new depths......
MORNING STAR.
The New Creation Church in Singapore spent something like S$500 millions on their proposed place of worship and church activities in One North, Singapore. In fact, there are a lot of for and against in the internet forum in S'pore concerning this mega project, however they are able to provide the justification and the cost effectiveness of the building compare to continue renting the premises to cater for the able growing congregation.
The amount spent on CCC is without much justification in view of the declining membership and also we did not hear or read any article from Calvary Church explaining the various concerns expressed by the members.
The world is already in a bad state, and the situation is made worst with such scandals in the Christian community.
The Bible says “the Canaanites were living in the land” – a reminder to us that the world is watching everything that is going on in the Christian community.
Let me put it bluntly – how can PG and BOD convince the unbelievers that they are godly people when they talked and act in such ungodly manner. May the Holy Spirit convict them and help them to repent.
WHO ARE THE AOG MINISTERS AND WHAT ARE THEY REALLY LIKE?- BESIDES THE IMAGE THEY PROJECT FROM THE PULPIT.
Some years ago(I won't give the years to prevent guessing)an AOG minster fell becusece of something related to sexual immorality.When it became an issue,he was removed from the church and his credential was withdrawn. Once his sin was exposed no other minister came to his side either for restoration or reconciliation.All withdrew from him even until today- nobody has visited him- disowned by his own. This is the real nature of the AOG leaders- if you are rich- somehow they will make time for you-but if you dont contribute financially-then you can never enter the inner circle.
This has happened to many ministers who no longer fellowship with their group.But that is not the end- they will on harping on your past even long past the event!!!
Personally I do not believe that God is with CC right now- I think He has let the church have their own way right now.
POWER OF AXE
The Star,Tuesday 21 June 2011, Nation Page 3:
"Group to disrobe cheats" http://thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=/2011/6/21/nation/8941823&sec=nation
Maybe it is time for a Christian group to be set up too, to expose rogue pastors in Malaysian Churches. Since AOG and NECF could not or dare not do their duties well in this aspect, so let a new group be formed.
To all Voting Members & Associate Members of Calvary Church who will be attending the AGM this coming Monday 27 June 2011, my prayers is that you would be bold enough to speak out for truth & transparency. Meditate on the words of Paul in Ephesians 5:5-14
5 For this you know with certainty, that no immoral or impure person or covetous man, who is an idolater, has an inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.
6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.
7 Therefore do not be partakers with them;
8 for you were formerly darkness, but now you are Light in the Lord; walk as children of Light
9 (for the fruit of the Light consists in all goodness and righteousness and truth),
10 trying to learn what is pleasing to the Lord.
11 Do not participate in the unfruitful deeds in darkness, but instead even expose them;
12 for it is disgraceful even to speak of the things which are done by them in secret.
13 But all things become visible when they are exposed by the light, for everything that becomes visible is light.
14 For this reason it says,
"Awake, sleeper,
And arise from the dead,
And Christ will shine on you." (NASB)
Please, please. Most AOG pastors are honourable, sincere and genuine. They are really serving their calling with much sacrifice and devotion. Only that some are infected with the craving for money, power and status. You can see that through their fruits. After a while you can feel their hearts. They behave excellently with those with money, ignoring those without. Ask the church staff and you will know something about the real person behind the title "senior pastor".
Buildings should not be built "to the glory of God,"
because God does not need buildings.
So, if there is truly a need for expansion,
the church leadership and congregation
need to set aside some time to seek
what God wants for the church and ask Him how the money will be provided.
aIYoooooo! aIYOOOOOOOOO!
RM301 million for a 5,000-seating church works out to RM60,200 per seat.
Is going to cost more with my offerrings, titles, love offerring and faith promise !!!!!!
I shall listen to MAN OF GOD, like Rev. David Wilkerson, Rev. Kevin Connor or even Pastor Chew
ONLINE, ONLINE, ONLINE.
I can listen to all the sermons in the comfort of my home.
I do not need to give faith promise or even give offerring.
With RM60,200 I shall get myself the latest MYVI and go for a tour to Hong Kong and do some shopping
Comment on:-
"Maybe it is time for a Christian group to be set up too,to expose rogue pastors in Malaysian Churches. Since AOG and NECF could not or dare not do their duties well in this aspect, so let a new group be formed"
...................................
Well said. definitely Christians need a new body of matured and God fearing people WHO CAN ACT WHEN ROGUE LEADERS ARISE AND START ABUSING THE CHURCH FOLKS. The present CC crisis has exposed them for who they really are- UNABLE TO ACT. But its hilarious to hear their many varied reasons on why they were unable to act.One AOG minister said to me-"When the children of Israel disobeyed Moses,they were stoned to death...if Christians go against their own Pastors they wont be blessed!!"
WHAT!!???I could not believe what I was hearing.You mean your church got to obey YOU?? before they get blessed?? This certainly was a revelation to me!!!What a load of
timeless AOG crap!!!
You know as I looked into his eyes, it suddenly occured to me that he may be sufferig some kind of mental disorder.One thing I am sure glad- I am not sitting in his church listening to his sermons.After hearing to what he said,I can roughly assume the character of his sermons. ONLY NOW I UNDERSTAND WHY HIS MEMBERS SEEM TO BE AN OBEDIENT LOT!!!
NECF- do the decent thing- STEP DOWN.If there arises another rogue pastor from a smaller church- you have no credibility even to attempt to put it right. Just admit to what you are- PACK UP YOUR BAGS AND GO HOME!!
CHEH-CHEH!!!
RESPONSE TO WRITER WHO WROTE:-
I can listen to all the sermons in the comfort of my home.
I do not need to give faith promise or even give offerring.
With RM60,200 I shall get myself the latest MYVI and go for a tour to Hong Kong and do some shopping
..................................
I am glad when Christians talk like this.To me it is evidence of breaking loose from the religious system.Many are caught up in a system that "traps them" into guilt and fear.
But I have to say this to the writer- please dont forget to fellowship with other Christians.They are lots of discouraged folk out there- maybe your presence will lift their spirits. Also on another point-give only when you feel led to give- dont feel pressured by any speaker.I can listen to all the sermons in the comfort of my home.
I do not need to give faith promise or even give offerring.
With RM60,200 I shall get myself the latest MYVI and go for a tour to Hong Kong and do some shopping
I broke loose from the AOG system many years ago. The good oneS are there but they are rare-and there are many bad apples among them and they BECOME INDIFFERENT TO YOU if you don't support "their vision which "God gave them".
Farewell fellow pilgrim-dont feel bad about getting your MYVI set-PROBABLY SP HAS GOT A MUCH BIGGER SET THAN YOURS AT HOME!!!
"Overheard this conversation some years back at CC"
Q.where does the missions money go exactly??
A. Dont ask so many questions- LAH- JUST GIVE- LAH!!
Q. Just wanted to know -LAH!!
A.Come on brother- you are standing on holy ground.It will go for building Gods Kingdom!! Frankly-even I dont know where the money will go!!Only God knows!!
TAKEN FOR A RIDE
Please don't stop going to church. There are many good pastors with real shepherd's hearts. Look for a church where the pastor's life-style, values, behavior and attitudes reflect those of Jesus. Avoid those who run the church like a secular CEO. Dr Tan Siang-Yang in his book Full Service said: "Strong leadership of the wrong kind, often based on secular CEO and business management models, can end up with much pride, self-sufficiency, and therefore sin." He further quoted Sider, "As Christ looks on the contemporary church, he sees church leaders who abuse power, live extravagantly, and jockey for fame and prestige. He must weep....Thank God that is not the total picture. There are scores of unknown servant leaders scattered through the church..."
Look for these servant leaders who can truly be a pastor to you and your family. I am now attending a church with such pastors.
DANGEROUS alarm signals from the pulpit
FROM THE PULPIT:MY WIFE WAS NOT MY FIRST CHOICE... BUT IT WAS GODS WILL.
FROM THE PULPIT: ITS MUCH EASIER TO MAKE DECISIONS IF THE CHURCH HAS ONLY ONE LEADER.BOARDS DECISION MAKING IS RATHER SLOW...IN FACT ITS DIFFICULT TO GET A QUORUM.
FROM THE PULPIT: GOD ALWAYS CHOOSES A SINGLE MAN FOR LEADERSHIP...THE REST WILL JUST HAVE TO FOLLOW.
FROM THE PULPIT: I AM ALWAYS SUSPICIOUS ABOUT PEOPLE WHO ASK QUESTIONS ABOUT CHURCH FINANCES...THIS IS THE SPIRIT OF JUDAS..."WHY WAS NOT THIS SOLD AND GIVEN TO THE POOR?'(Congregation hushes down feeling guilty)
FROM THE PULPIT: ( PRIZE GOES TO THIS)
GOD CHOSE ME AS THE OVERSEER OF THIS CHURCH WHETHER YOU LIKE IT OR NOT- AND IF YOU CANNOT SUBMIT TO MY LEADERSHIP- REMEMBER WHAT THE POLICE CHIEF SAID IN THE MOVIE "PREDATOR" --" REMEMBER SON- THE DOOR SWINGS BOTH WAYS!!!"
IF YOU HAVE NOT SEEN THIS MOVIE- SEE ME AFTER THE PRAYER MEETING- I CAN ALWAYS LEND IT TO YOU.AFTER ALL THE BIBLE SAYS- BE KIND TO THE POOR AND NEEDY!!!
PUZZLED SAYS :
THE AUTHOR OF THE ARTICLE SAYS THAT FROM CALCULATION OF JV'S PROFIT SHARING , DEVELOPER SHOULD EXPECT TO EARN RM 50 MILLION , SO THE COST OF THE PROPOSED BUILDING ON THE 1.75 ACRES OF LAND SHOULD BE AROUND RM 300 MILLION .
HMMM.... SOUNDS LIKE THE COST OF THE CCC OF RM 301 MILLION . LET US SAY , A MULTI STOREY CONDOMINIUM BLOCK COSTING RM 300 MILLION , WHICH IS COMPARATIVELY SIMILAR TO A HUGE CONVENTION CENTRE BUILT OVER A FEW ACRES OF LAND , WITH MANY ROOMS ETC .
SOMETHING MUST BE WRONG WITH THE MATHS HERE .
IS AUTHOR MAKING SOME ERRONEOUS ASSUMPTIONS ? IT LEADS HIM/ HER TO THE CONCLUSION THAT THE UNIT WILL HAVE TO BE SOLD FOR RM 750,000
EACH AT LEAST AND WHO WILL WANT TO BUY THEM ??
QUERY ASK ;
CAN YOU ENLIGHTENED ME ON THE QUOTATION FROM SUSAN TANG 'S BOOK ;
" ISRAEL WAS NOT RELATED TO GOD , THEY WERE RELATED ONLY TO THEIR RELIGIOUS SYSTEM AND THIS PROVOKED EGOD TO ANGER "
PLEASE CLARIFY ON THE WORDS " ISRAEL WAS NOT RELATED TO GOD '
"RELATED " IN NORMAL MEANING MEans
' IN RELATION TO " OR " CONNECTED TO " . SO , DOES THE AUTHOR MEAN THAT THERE WAS NO CONNECTION BETWEEN BETWEEN " ISRAEL ' AND " GOD " ???
A FURTHER OBSERVATION ON AOG LEADERSHIP
I know the AOG has many fine leaders and speakers. Quite a few of them are visionaries too.A few are exceptional with the power of words and the rest are boring(some of them can bore you to death with their "high moral content" conversations & long prayers during prayer meetings.)
But the AOG leaders are never known for restoring FALLEN leaders.(ASK YOUR PASTOR- HE CAN ANSWER IT) If any minister is unfortunate enough to have his sin exposed before the congregation- just too bad.Even if the fallen minister repents and stays, its not satan that laughs and makes it difficult to continue- its the AOG Ministers themselves.They wont invite him anymore and the fallen minister becomes the topic of conversation for many years to come.
I can give you
specific examples but whats the point??Since the late 70's I have seen many ministers fall.Those ministers were deeply wounded by the attitude shown towards them bY their fellow AOG ministers after their fall from grace.
On the AOG ministerial scene- we hear of downfalls now and then.But does anyone know if there is a fallen minister RESTORED and is serving God again IN MALAYSIA?? I tell you there is none.If there is they would have left the AOG already.
One minister told me " We are very concerned for him"( for a fallen minister).
And when I asked " Has anyone from your circle visited him for some fellowship? drew a complete blank.Of course- if the guy was a millionaire- there would be many visitors to his house under the guise of "pastoral care"
I tell you =these guys are a spiritual fake.I will concede that they are fine speakers and talkers. But one should not be deceived by their speech- just see what they have done- see that attitude.
They match the description of the "elder brother" in the story of the prodigal son.
"There is a problem in the House"
I think we should all pray for our own Pastors but we must maintain a neutral disposition. My Pastors is okay- only once we had a tiff- during tea he began to mention the misdeeds of another AOG Minister- I told him straightaway that I dont want to hear it.Althouh he was angry with my attitude- he got over with it. Since then - there was no more useless talk with me. If anyone comes to pour rubbish into your ears-they may have discerned that you are the type " who loves to gossip".
If they still insist on telling their stories- then ask searching questions like
1. How do you know this?
2. What was the motive in this other brother bringing you this news?
3.Did you give the other brother to explain his side of the story?
When I try this technique- the gossippers usually back off by then!! God bless you all>
To the Deacons of Calvary Church,
If the fair cost of building churches in Klang Valley is RM10,000 per seat, the members deserve a right to know why we need to spend at RM60,000 per seat.
This must be the first and only most important question to ask in this coming AGM. WE CAN'T CONTINUE TO SWEEP AWAY THIS QUESTION UNDER THE CARPET.
Why are we spending 600% more than others? Where is the wisdom God has given us?
All this talk about this and that Pastor and PG IS A JOKE.
He is really 'taunting' the Calvarites and pushing his luck as far as he can go. But underneath his arrogance and wrongdoings, I am sure he knows that his days as SP are coming to an end. I am sure he has lost the joy and peace of JESUS. He knows that he will be held accountable for his wrongdoings. He knows that he may be able to deceive so many blind followers, but he cannot deceive GOD! He is already punished BIG TIME, internally.
Perhaps he is too proud to do the right thing and step down. Perhaps the whole gang of APs etc need their jobs in CC to survive. Their love for their jobs (and the money) has overridden their obligation to God to do the right thing and walk away from such a rogue leader as PG. Unbelievable case of blind leading blinder..
Amidst all the storm, I think we should STOPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPP and see the beauty of JESUS. These so called 'leaders' pale in comparison. The Pharisees and scribes pale in comparison to JESUS.
JESUS is LOVE. HE IS KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS, yet He was humble. We must all learn to be more like HIM and shine like HIM. Else, dont even call ourselves Christ-ians.
Time to learn from others' mistakes and wise up. For Jesus' secondcoming may be just around the corner??
As for other lazy, irresponsible Pastors of this world, do be warned !! Take heed and either do your job right or leave it for someone who has a heart that is after the heart of Jesus to fill the role.
No more playing church...
SP, APs,BOD AND CHURCH ELDERS HAD CREATED A VERY BAD IMAGE OF CHRISTIANITY. ITS HARD TO BELIEVE AND BEYOND ONE'S COMPREHENSION HOW THEY CAN HAVE SUCH A LOW UNDERSTANDING OF BIBLICAL TRUTH AND LACK OF ANY SPIRITUAL DISCERNMENT, ESPECIALLY THE APs. IN WHAT THEY ARE DOING, THEY HAVE INSTEAD PUT THEMSELVES TO AID & ABEIT SATAN IN HIS EVIL WORK TO BLOCK THE GOOD NEWS OF SALVATION TO SAVE SINNERS.
THE SPIRIT OF ANTI-CHRIST IS DECEIVING MANY IN CC. MAY GOD HAVE MERCY UPON THEIR SOULS.
COMMENT ON:-
But does anyone know if there is a fallen minister RESTORED and is serving God again IN MALAYSIA?? I tell you there is none.If there is they would have left the AOG already
..................................
Hey,the above observation is so true.During our lunch time break I asked all my office Colleagues if they know of any AOG minister who had fallen and been restored- all agreed they had not seen even one!!!!!!!!
This is a bad state of affairs indeed- AND WOEFULLY SHAMEFUL!!
Fr CT @ June 25, 2011 11:18 AM
My Pastor always preaches against smoking and drinking but he never dares to preach against divorce because there quite a few divorcees in the church and they are all rich and contribute $$$ to church. He is an okay guy- but in that area he can be quite hypocritical- that's plain for all the members to see.
It appears his biggest joy is to take the young adults here and there for whatever purposes. Sometimes its Tioman, or Penang or Camerons. One member said that it was just an excuse to get away from real work,and holiday at the church expense.
Anyway,he may be lazy and aimless but he is harmless- me hopeth!!So we just let it me.
AGAINST ANIMAL CRUELTY!!!
Fr CT @ June 25, 2011 11:28 AM
SP is already going through the chastisement.Can you imagine his shock and embarassment,when finally his carefully concealed "hand in the cookie jar" came to light, one by one.
I think the biggest laugh for me was when the financial questions were raised related to extended ministries of CIM- I did observe the consternation on his face!!!
But one should never underestimate this man- he is real slippery. When the question was put to a vote some years back - which required that the extended ministries be audited as a consolidated accout under CC- he answered - Well the acoounts can be presented as one..... beginning from 2008!!!!!
What about the previous accounts?? He managed to escape the situation. I think all the AP's are aware of this- but they just dare not stand up to this man.
Q. why was so much spent on expenses?
SP- Well, it costs money to travel.
(He "Forgot again" to mention if he travelled economy class)
I know SP is angry and distressed about this blog.So is my Pastor.My Pastor feels this blog is the work of satan- I DONT AGREE WITH HIM AT ALL. He always passes some nasty comment about this blog-I get the feeling that he is very unconfortable about this.
TO ALL THE BELOVED PASTORS WHO ARE DOING GODS WORK- MAY YOU BE BLESSED. BUT IF YOU BECOME SPIRITUALLY ABUSIVE- THEN JUST REMEMBER-" OUR GOD SHOWS NO FAVOURITISM"
Fr CT @ June 25, 2011 11:42 AM
Woww!!!!RM200,000,000 for a Church?? If that money were to be filled up in sacks-in RM10 denominations- I think all members at CC will have to carry 1 sack and there will still be many sacks piled up at the door. Can you imagine- each member lifting up his sack during worship time and singing "I thank you Lord....":
WHAT UTTER STUPIDITY.(BODOH BETUL)
SP AND AP'S- TAKE SOME TIME FOR PRAYER TO LISTEN FROM ABOVE- DONT CARRY ON LIKE THIS.
EXPELLED FROM NEW STAR TREK SHIP
Fr CT @ June 25, 2011 11:51 AM
In reply to Grace (June 23, 2011 10:24 PM).
The answer to your question on "Israel was not related to God..." may be found in the paragraph following the quotation from Jeremiah 7:4 where Rev Susan Tang added:
"This is the major reason why Israel could not change her moral behaviour. She had misplaced her faith by relating to a system, to religious activities, rituals and not to God. They had truly forgotten God and trusted in falsehood. Contemporary Christianity is almost the same. Many merely relate to the church system with its activities and programmes to keep them afloat. This is why we have no power to say 'yes' to God and 'no' to self, to the world and to the devil."
You were right to interpret that Israel had lost its connection to God, the relationship had been broken. Instead Israel chose to be identified with religious activities and their beautiful building. Their faith shifted from God to their own effort; their building and religious activities.
You can apply this to the CCC situation. Whilst they mouth faith in God in actual fact they are dependent on their own effort to build the magnificent building to which no man can resist visiting. So they think. PG is getting his people to relate to CCC and not to God.
You may want to ask Rev Susan Tang yourself what she meant. Her email is admin@station-of-life.org
Fr CT @ June 25, 2011 12:43 PM
CC is in dire straits since the building of CCC commenced. Coupled with the saga in the church, income such as tithes, offering/gifts/contributions, contribution to building fund and Faith Promise have dropped drastically. Yet the annual report and the report on CCC has been written in such a way that a rosy picture is depicted.
One does need to be an accountant to conclude that the finances in CC is in a very very shaky position.
Btw who are the signatories for the RM43 Mil bank loan? Is PG one of them? If not, the deacons and AP's have played into his hands. If anything turns drastic, he can turn round and say that he did not sign it. He has been evil since he became senior pastor of CC - amending the constitution to consolidate his position, putting his hand into the cookie jar, transferring church money into his personal ministry and a host of other unethical and immoral conduct!
I too cannot understand why most(?) of the AOG pastors got offended because of what was exposed in this blog.
As far as CT is concerned, we readers fully support CT in exposing CC’s errant SP, APs and BODs. And it appears this is a common behavioral pattern of most AOG pastors though I sincerely hope not. And what CT did is biblical – “the deeds of darkness” must be exposed – Ephesians 5:11 NIV.
Like the Pharisees, they never want to learn from their past mistakes and the mistakes of others – they rather pull the wool over their eyes. How pitiful the whole bunch of them.
May God have mercy on them.
THANK YOU, CT
We wish to express our heartfelt thank you, from the depth of our hearts to CT, over these diffi8cult years, for playing a very vital role, acting as a very crucial communication link among CC members and concerned others, updating us on the latest development, factually and impartially, helping us to separatwe he truths from lies, deceit, half truths and outright falsehoods from the rogue leaders.
Our sincere appreciation too for providing a vital platform whereby we can also warn and forewarn various newcomers who just joined CC as visitors, who may be unwary of the dark secrets surrounding the unholy alliance under the present leadership. We would strongly encourage them to visit this CT blog on a regular basis to be in the know on the latest developments, and not for fall for teh enemies' bag of tricks.
May we also add that we found great encouragement from the Christian fellowship that materialised from brotherly and sisterly words of love, advice and encouragement through the blogs.
We beleive the beginning of the end is already in sight for the sinful leaders. We can already see God's hands on the recent developments. We know our prayers are answered. Our cries have been heard by our Heavenly Father.
May the unjust tremble in anticipation of divine Judgement. Amen.
Puzzled writes :
Can the writer find out the actual area of the 5 Bungalow lots in Damansara ?
We cannot just estimate that each lot is 6000 sq feet and market value is RM 300 per sq feet . The CC committee informed its members that they were worth RM 35 million and writer's estimate is RM 9 million . What a vast difference .
The income for the church had dropped tremendously:
2010 2007
1) Tithes 5.3 M 7.5 M
2) Building fund 4.6 M 9.7 M
3) Offerings 1.0 M 1.3 M
4) Faith Promise 2.7 M 4.4 M
Total 13.6 M 22.9 M
For comparison, 2007 is selected because over the last ten years tithes collection peaked in 2007 and subsequently dropped year by year.
The difference is 9.3 M which is a 41 percent drop.
In the Missions Fund report, the net for the financial year shows a deficit of 450K.
PG's arrogance and dictatorial control of CC would bring much hardship to the church.
YOU REAP WHAT YOU SOW
The bible says we reap what we sow.
So it should come as no major surprise at all that reportedly income in CC dropped drastically Yr 2007 vs Yr 2010 from RM 22.9 M to RM 13.6 M, purportedly a 41 % decline (refer Anonymous June 25, 2011 11.58 pm).
A very good question that comes to mind is : "Why ?"
We hope the church leaders would oblige us answering this very simple yet direct question during the AGM. We hope their answers would tally with the ones already imprinted / embedded in our hearts and minds.
We also hope they would not try to circumvent this question "WHY". We believe they had done so in the past. They might try again. Let see how they wriggle out of this tight spot. Meanwhile, do not be tricked by their smiling faces, "feel good" breaking news. Do not be deceived by the "rosy picture' (super duper rescue plan) they try presenting to us. Look beyond their superficial "acting", and you would start noticing body language and nonverbal communication (eg perhaps split second frowns, dry mouths, change in tones, cracked voices, slip up words, sweaty palms, nervous hand actions, shifty eyes, hollow laughter, frustration that nobody listens to them, etc). We feel that "roofs, walls and floors of their empire" have started cracking up and crumbling, piece by piece, chunk by chunk, soon into oblivion.
BTW We think TOTT (turn off the tap) is working great, from the reported results.
Everything out of nothing.
BTW, when we spell "WHY" in reverse, we get the word "YHW" - which is YAHWEH ! Jehovah ! The true answer to all our questions and problems. Praise God.
A good example of a good stewardship building project is the First Assembly of God Ipoh. Estimated cost RM2.5 million for a sanctuary hall and a four storey admin block:
Total built up area 16,500 s.f
Accommodate 450 worshipers and Sunday school children with modern amenities for worshiping, training, fellowship and administration.
I understand they managed to raise only about RM2.0 million. At the moment they do not have the money to put in a lift which would cost around RM200,000. The congregation has a lot of older people. The lift would make life a lot easier for them. Info is available at:
http://firstaogipoh.org.my/TheProject.html
TOTT IS WORKING. ITS WORKING AND THE BODY LANGUAGE IS SHOWING..CURTAINS COMING DOWN VERY SOON.
I HAVE ALREADY STARTED PRAYING FOR THE NEXT LEADERSHIP.LETS START ALL OVER AGAIN. AND THE FIRST THING FOLKS HAVE TO DO IS TO AMEND THE CC CONSTITUTION IMMEDIATELY!!!
Lets all stand together and pray that God will bring us through this distressful transition at CC. To be sure, there is so much that is concealed right now.The leadership at CC are demonstrating more dirt than is found in politics.Hey man - please repent for your own sakes!!!
God Bless Your coming week!!!
I attended CC since 1983 and now settled in SIB with the conclusion of the legal case. My family is blessed and our new journey with the Lord began with membership modules. Today, we completed the 7 steps to freedom in Christ: 1) Counterfeit vs Real 2) Deception vs Truth. 3) Bitterness. vs Forgiveness. 4) Rebellion vs Submission. 5) Pride vs Humility. 6) Bondage vs Freedom. 7) Curses vs Blessings. Praise the Lord for these teachings. They helped us with 1) Identity in Christ 2) Identify Issues 3) Impartation of Handles (2 Samuel 22:29-31)
Let's pray a prayer of blessing for CC Pastors, brothers and sisters in Christ with this verse, Galatians 5:1 - It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to yoke of slavery.
Why waste time attending a church that built on the foundation of money not Christ, thinking of getting back your money ? well, if you have the solutions, please share with all. No attendance means close shop. The time is near, friends...Find the solutions not just talk, he is getting more courageous because all the talkings seem not to have any impact on him and the gang... shalom.
COMMENT ON
Yet the annual report and the report on CCC has been written in such a way that a rosy picture is depicted.
...............................
TOTT is working and the money flow has dropped. But SP and Pastor Peter always put on a smiling face and PRETEND AS THOUGH GOD IS STILL blessing CC financially. RIGHT NOW THEY ARE THE GREATEST AND EXPERT LIARS ABUSING THE PULPIT!!! I tell you all this sandiwara will never stop.IN fact, RIGHT NOW THIS IS THE GREATEST CHRISTIAN SANDIWARA GOING ON IN THE CITY.
There are so many lies and misrepresentations from the pulpit of CC today ,and the lies are so continuous.
One lie to cover up another lie.SK is being used but he is a minister without a backbone...just follow instructions. If I were a Minister and SP had instructed me to go to Court -I would have told him to go take a hike!!
WE all have to submit and respect God fearing Pastors not backslidden devils abusing their authority.
SP IS ALREADY GOING THROUGH THE JUDGMENT AND IT IS GOING TO GET WORSE.
EX-CALVARITE- ADJUSTING INTO ANOTHER CHURCH- BYE.
Fr CT @ June 26, 2011 1:42 PM
The AOG Pastors get offended and embarassed by this blog because, finally- there is a platform where believers can express their concerns.Pastors control their own church pulpits and they decide who they want to invite- usually their own colour and hyde.So the Christian has no platform to express his disappointments with his church pastors. But finally this blog emerged- and Oh MY -- there has been quite a write up here on many issues - from the lazy teh tarik Pastor to the sly gossipping Pastor.I DONT BELIEVE VISITORS TO THIS BLOG ARE RUNNING DOWN THEIR OWN PASTORS.But they are telling the truth and their experiences with their own leadership.
And many pastors are embarassed and angry.Because they are being exposed for who they really are behind that facade.
Its only through this blog that I realized that there are NO FALLEN MINISTERS WHO HAVE BEEN RESTORED AND SERVING RIGHT NOW!!!!
These AOG ministers can talk and sound powerful- but all men have their weaknesses.
My Pastor knows that I vist this blog and according to him" the church disapproves it!!"
Another manipulative efefort on his part-- its not the church - but he is disapproving it and he is trying to hide behind the church covering.HE CANT FOOL ME!!WHAT A NATURAL LIAR!!
Fr CT @ June 26, 2011 2:42 PM
Re:Fr CT @ June 26, 2011 2:42 PM
When a pastor uses "church" to represents himself it is a dangerous sign. Neither the pastor of the board of deacons is the church. The plaintiffs sued PG and the deacons but when they announced it in CC they said that the plaintiffs sued the church. The plaintiffs never sued the church.
Yah, very true, one lie to cover another lie. Reason given for the closure of the Ampang sunday worship service was that sometimes the hotel needed to use the hall on Sunday morning. Lie. Actually no money for rental of hall.
Please, please again. Not all AOG pastors are like that. Most are true shepherds with a servant heart. I know of one who asked his board to draft the constitution to make sure he could not abuse his position as senior pastor. He does not sign checks and leave the admin side of the church to the board members. Only a few bad apples, not the whole barrel is bad.
The same abuses can happen in the independent churches which are not registered as societies or berhad. At least for the AOG churches there is the general council to provide some oversight although they are quite powerless. For the independent churches there is no oversight at all. They are members of NECF but NECF does not provide oversight.
Since the the pastors are against this blog don't be surprised if they try to shut it down. Or they can sue the blog owner. The senior pastor is a tan sri so he has power and influence.
Fr CT @ June 27, 2011 11:38 AM
While it may be true that there are some good AOG pastors, the overall AOG system is questionable. There are many questionable teachings or practices:
1) New Church Buildings
A number of AOG churches are embarking on building projects to outdo each other. Buildings will now be equipped with state of the art facilities e.g sports centre which increases building cost. Some of these churches existing buildings are not even 70% full but they want to build larger buildings in the name of future church growth.
2) Building or Faith Promise Pledges
Church members are challenged to give based on wrong teachings:
- give till it hurts urregardless of your own circumstances
- give something from what you don't have. Always have faith for God to provide
- the current year pledge should be preferably higher than last year
- how much you give is a measure of your faith
The above is what I observed for the past 10 years in AOG churches
True, faith promise giving is a peculiar AOG fund raising tool. It is not biblical. I would have no problem with it if 100% of the fund raised is actually given away to missions. However, in most cases it is not so. They define missions very loosely to include any activity that can termed evangelistic or missionary in nature. In the case of CC in some years more than half of the missions giving ended in CCC. The justification is that CCC is also missionary, that is according to PG and the deacons. More ridiculous is that PG's traveling expenses are charged under missions too.
The church I am attending now raised RM3.8 million through one missionary giving on its anniversary. Every single sen was given away. Not one sen was spent in or on the church.
RESPONSE TO"................
Pinochio said...
Yah,very true,one lie to cover another lie. Reason given for the closure of the Ampang sunday worship service was that sometimes the hotel needed to use the hall on Sunday morning. Lie. Actually no money for rental of hall.
..................................
I had a good laugh reading the observation of Pinochio.It confirms my family's suspicions
all along-they have started lying a longtime ago to cover up everything. I TELL YOU MAN- CC PULPIT IS DEFILED AND HAS BECOME AS AN UNCLEAN THING!!! These days I always take their announcements with a pinch of salt.Its almost laughable.Howver I do feel sorry for the folks who are staying behind and still giving their $$$.
CC has become a bottomless pit- no amount is enough.
CALVARY CHURCH SHOULD BE RENAMED AS "CORRUPTED CHURCH"-becaue I believe thats the real meaning of the church right now. What did I hear???? " Fountainhead Church?"--Ha,ha.,,ho,,,ho,,ha,,ho....
Closed down because the hotel neede it? KING OF LIARS AWARD GOES TO CC LEADERSHIP.
PERHAPS THE BIGGEST CONJOB EVER CONNIVED BY A PASTOR WAS THIS THING CALLED "GIVE UNTIL IT HURTS". OUR PREVIOUS PASTOR HARPED ON IT FOR THE NEW CHURCH BUILDING- SO MANY FAMILIES STOPPED GOING TO FANCY RESTAURENTS ON SUNDAYS - INSTEAD THE $$$ WENT TO CHURCH.ON HINDSIGHT I THINK THE WHOLE CHURCH SUFFERED UNDER THIS BURDEN
. BEFORE THE BUILDING WAS COMPLETED, STRANGELY, HE COULD UPGRADE HIS CAR!!! ANYWAY, HE WENT THROUGH A DIVORCE LATER AND LEFT THE CHURCH. THERE WAS NO NEWS ABOUT ANOTHER WOMAN IN HIS LIFE-ANYWAY HIS WIFE WAS A REAL BEAUTIFUL WOMEN NATURALLY AND IN SPIRIT.
OUR FAMILY HAS NOT SEEN HIM FOR MANY YEARS-WHATEVER WAS BOTHERING HIM...I HOPE HE IS OKAY NOW. PEACE TO ALL THE BRETHREN!!
DOWN MEMORY LANE-
In the annual report, in 2010 income derived from fixed deposit was RM529k. Nice reporting - "feel good".
If the fixed deposit is utilised for the phase 1A for CCC, then next year the income from F.D. will be negligible.
And TOTT is working wonderfully, expect a further decrease in the total income in CC in future.
There is nothing to smile abut in tonight's AGM!
The 7 Plaintiffs names disappeared when they first announced the AGM but now their names are back on the list.
So will any of the 7 attend?
A DIRE WARNING TO PASTORS From the Book of Jeremiah
Pastors should be proud and glad to have this blog where one can see what is right and what is wrong with the way they run their local church. But unfortunately they have not taken the right attitude and perceive it to be “satanic” – that is what they like to think, being deceived by Satan himself.
Let us get some biblical facts straight regarding the role of a pastor and what happens to them (quoting Biblical verses to support) when they go astray against God’s ways.
Using the Book of Jeremiah, KJV, as a reference (and I have not even referred to other Books in the Bible) viz:
Jeremiah 3:15 KJV
• And I will give you pastors according to mine heart, which shall feed you with knowledge and understanding.
This is straightforward enough. Pastors are given by God to the local churches, and the pastors’ job is to feed its church members with knowledge and understanding of God’s Word and His Ways. No one disputes this. Pastors have done this job well.
The pastors themselves, APs and BODs should be ABOVE REPROACH, and when they act in ways contrary to ethics and morality (which is against God’s ways), then the consequences are serious, viz:-
Jeremiah 10:21 KJV
• For the pastors are become brutish, and have not sought the LORD: therefore they shall not prosper, and all their flocks shall be scattered.
Jeremiah 12:10 KJV
• Many pastors have destroyed my vineyard, they have trodden my portion under foot, they have made my pleasant portion a desolate wilderness.
Jeremiah 23:1 KJV
• Woe be unto the pastors that destroy and scatter the sheep of my pasture! saith the LORD.
Jeremiah 23:2 KJV
• Therefore thus saith the LORD God of Israel against the pastors that feed my people; Ye have scattered my flock, and driven them away, and have not visited them: behold, I will visit upon you the evil of your doings, saith the LORD.
As a concerned Christian, I dread to think of these consequences and sincerely pray that (1) PG and his APs and BOD and (2) aggrieved Calvarites (past and present) will find ways to reconciliate. May God’s grace be upon all parties.
If you have high hope in the Constitutional Review Constitution, you will again be disappointed.
If you expect they will come out with amendment to curb the extreme power of the senior pastor and board of deacons, you will be disappointment.
Instead, they proposed a dispute resolution clause to bar members from going to court. The rationale given was to avoid adverse publicity to the church if members were to take case to outside parties like AOG, NECF and courts.
You can see that their concern is keeping members locked in and all matters kept within 4 walls. Their concern is to restrict members of bringing disputes outside the insulated church instead of SP & BOD creating an environment to avoid or reduce incidents of dispute.
The appropriate motion is to amend constitution to reduce the power of SP and BOD. The appropriate action is to practise truth, transparencies and good governance.
Why now the church introduced this motion on dispute resolution clause when all the 7 plaintiffs asked were mediation and arbitration but rejected by the church?
Finally, how much can we expect when the Chairman of the Constitution Review Committee is David Peters who is a deacon and spokesman for PG/BOD against the TTG?
The total income of CC dropped 40percent over 3 years. So, salary of all pastors be cut by same percentage.
It is good to have in place a conflict resolution process but is must be independent such that any aggrieved party can have a fair hearing and can expect a fair decision. The process must not be under the control or influence of the senior pastor, the elders or the deacons. Otherwise it would just be another red herring. Having some nice sounding provisions in the constitution but actually all the processes are designed to concentrate power and control in the hands of the senior pastor.
Making such a strangling change to the church’s constitution is an act intended to pervert justice.
It is a display of the powers-that-be to bully the church members into total submission to the pastor (who is NOT the head of a church biblically). We always say Jesus is the Head of the church. This is what I have to say: Don’t tell me. Show me by your deeds and lifestyle that indeed JESUS IS THE HEAD OF THE CHURCH.
Please practice what you (ie pastors) preach and teach, as it makes me feel uncomfortable to think you are may turn out to be a member of the the Anti-Christ club.
Today's devotion by Jon Walker
Every word of God is flawless;
he is a shield to those who take refuge in him.
Proverbs 30:5 (NIV)
Historian Stephen Ambrose says that during World War II,
“The Allied bombers bristled with machine guns,
in the nose, under the belly, on top, in the rear.”
He reports the workhorse of the air war was the B-17 bomber,
known as the “Flying Fortress” because it carried thirteen .50 caliber machine guns.
Surprisingly, scientific testing suggested the B-17 would be safer without the guns.
Without the weight of the guns and the crew members required to shoot them,
the planes could fly faster and higher, increasing the chance of survival during daylight missions.
But the pilots said there was no way they were going on a mission without guns mounted on the plane.
They wanted to be able to shoot back.
We make the same choice when it comes to our own battles.
God tells us we don’t need the guns;
we can soar higher and faster with him.
“For though we live in the world, we do not wage war as the world does”
(2 Corinthians 10:3 NIV).
GOD says the WEAPONS HE will give us
“have divine power to demolish strongholds,”
and we no longer need to use the “weapons of the world”
(2 Corinthians 10:4 NIV).
But we say, “No thanks.
We have to shoot back!” and defend ourselves with an arsenal of angry words,
demanding attitudes, manipulative maneuvers, excessive excuses, and bombs of blame.
It takes faith to stop using these weapons of the flesh
and instead “take up the shield of faith” and arm ourselves with the weapons of God,
starting with the bomb of love
(Ephesians 6:16 NIV).
It’s the kind of faith David showed when he approached Goliath, saying,
“You come against me with sword and spear and javelin,
but I come against you in the name of the Lord Almighty,
the God of the armies of Israel, whom you have defied”
(1 Samuel 17:45 NIV).
Could God’s spiritual arsenal defend you as well?
“He is a shield to those who take refuge in him”
(Proverbs 30:5 NIV).
To the Annonymous of
June 23, 2011 6:33 PM who said the following: "DANGEROUS alarm signals from the pulpit"
This is a strong allegation on the sacredness of the sermon. It is one thing to criticize a person but to critique the sacrament of the Word.. I am not against your statement, instead asserting that it is important to have your facts straight. Can others vouch for what was said? If it can be verified, then i will join you in denouncing the abuse of this sacrament....
To Anon June 28, 2011 12:18 PM.
Not surprised at your reaction to "DANGEROUS alarm signals from the pulpit".
For those of us who were from Calvary before, this is no surprise. I heard with my own ears, at the start of this saga, PG said this in his sermon on a Sunday worship service standing under the big cross on top of his head and behind the "sacred" pulpit, he said this, "IF ANYONE OF YOU THINK I AM PREACHING PROSPERITY GOSPEL, YOU CAN GO JUMP IN THE LAKE".
If you still don't believe, go listen to how he talk to the members through the many recordings of his voice during the EGM and AGM of CC. He spoke standing behind the pulpit, under the cross in the sanctuary of God and asked "bouncers" to "throw" members out of the church.
Today though the crisis in Calvary, we begin to see the real faces of many (though not all) the AOG pastors. I cannot vouch for what Anon "DANGEROUS" said, but I can assure you, in Calvary, those are possible words from PG's mouth only. The rest of APs are more careful with their words when standing up there.
REPLY TO:-
This is a strong allegation on the sacredness of the sermon. It is one thing to criticize a person but to critique the sacrament of the Word.. I am not against your statement, instead asserting that it is important to have your facts straight. Can others vouch for what was said? If it can be verified, then i will join you in denouncing the abuse of this sacrament....
.................................
What word or sermon did I criticize? I am merely repeating what I have heard from the pulpit over a span of nearly 30 years.I have been to different churches.(All AOG)
MInd you Sir,not to provoke anyone, and I certainly do not wish to abuse this blog- the worse I have heard from the pulpit is this" If you see an Indian and a poisonous snake- whack the Indian first!!!"
There were only a few Indians in the church.Imagine my wifes horror( We are a chinese family).After the service she immediately went to the Pastor and asked him to retract what the speaker just said.Of course, the visiting speaker had bolted by then and my Pastor had to apologise!!What a complete idiot!!!
It is indeed shameful when you use the pulpit to humiliate others.Thank God, most of the non Chinese were matured believers and they did not make an issue of it!!PASTORS SHOULD NOT USE THE PULPIT TO SOW THE SEEDS OF SATAN!!!
WHERE DOES THE PROBLEM LIE and WHAT CAN BE DONE?
When I studied the CC saga, three issues arose in my mind:-
1.Where does the problem lie?
2.What can be done?
3.And what have we (as church members of some other churches) learned?
Answer to Question (1) Where does the Problem(s) lie?
(a)Church Leadership, and
(b)Church Organizational Structure
You have a situation whereby:
(a)the pastor is the head of the church, giving orders to its church members what to do, and if they do not like it, they can leave the church – (you can refer to Anon posting dated June 20, 2011 - "If you don't like what I am saying- then get out of the church!!!"). It was on Father’s Day.
(b)The church organizational structure is wrong from the start – NON-BIBLICAL. If you study the NT (from Acts to the Epistles), the church is not run by the pastor but by a body of elders. It is not even the board of deacons that oversees the affairs of the church. The qualifications of an elder are clearly spelt out in the Bible.
(c)Not many church members bother to study the church constitution seriously and whenever it is amended.
These factors combined to create a church environment whereby it can have a dictatorial autocratic system and a non-biblical structure making it an opportunity for abuse of power.
Answer to Q2 – What can be Done? There should be a clause or clauses in the constitution to provide for the removal of an errant pastor.
If there is no such provision in the constitution, you do have a big problem?
You cannot leave this decision to the board of deacons when this board is the pastor’s yes-men. Then in this case, an EGM can be called for, but I doubt it will be effective, as most of the present members are neutral and waiting and watching, and when it comes to voting time, I doubt you will see any voting reactions from them.
We have to turn to God for His divine intervention and pour our hearts out. As we all know, God is never in a hurry and He will do so in the fullness of time.
Conclusion: The state of affairs will continue as it is, with the pastor in charge. If the CCC succeeds, he will get the credit. If it fails, would he be around to answer for it???
If the church’s structure is based on governance by a body of qualified elders (as per the qualifications given in the NT), then I do not see how such problems will arise. At worst, the body of elders will remove the pastor from the church without any trouble at all.
What have we learned? I am more careful now before I want to become a member of any church. First, I will want to know its organizational structure whether it is biblical with elders overseeing the church rather than a pastor and secondly, I like to take a look at its constitution. Will they allow me?
But then, how many of us will do that in practice?
I used to attend an AOG church- but after a while I realized that I was not welcome there. So we moved away. Sometimes there were racist jokes from the pulpit- but it was always demeaning other races and culture.Jesus broke down the "wall of hostility" but somehow these preachers manage to erect it up again. Such is their demeanour and spirit.
When God chose to reach out to the Gentiles- he chose the most unlikely of persons- Paul - with his fanatical Jewish background.I tell you no church board today would have chosen an individual for such an un-Jewish ministry.
I have no problems with Christians wanted to fellowship with their own colour & culture=but we must take care not to run down others whom God has redeemed.
When I visited Times Square Church in New York City- I saw what I will be seeing in heaven one day- people from all over the world- from Iceland to Korea and Africa- it seems as though every race was represented there.
I have absolutely no doubt that Rev.David Wilkerson was an apostle of a rare kind.
So if you are a Pastor and are reading this- the pulpit is to preach Gods Word & love- were you not ordained to minister Gods Word??-
- SO PASTORS- DONT USE IT TO SPREAD YOUR OWN CRAP!!!!!!!
Greetings from New Zealand.
SOMEONE WROTE THIS:-
First,I will want to know its organizational structure whether it is biblical with elders overseeing the church rather than a pastor and secondly, I like to take a look at its constitution. Will they allow me?
...................................
If you work for a stable Company, every employee can have access to the "Employees Handbook".Basically it will contain the A-Z of employer- employee relations.BUT many AOG churches DO NOT have a Church Constitution. So you can imagine where the power is focused.The rest are just like dumb sheep who follow orders- until a crisis hits - like CC- and then only the dumb sheep realize they have been taken for a Pentecostal Ride.It has just dawned on them that the main purpose of the Constitution is to protect the Pastor himself!!!!SP does not consider himself an employee but the rest of the staff are???The rules do not apply to him??? SO THIS IS WHAT THE CC CONSTITUTION EXISTS FOR??
So dear Brother-if you go around any AOG church and start asking for their constitution- you wont be welcome anymore. Such is the state of AOG churches these days.
My advice is this- PRAY FOR GODS LEADING BEFORE DECIDING TO JOIN ANY CHURCH!!
There is a lot of monkey business going on in church these days!!!!
FARE WELL!!
Referring to June 29, 2011 10:18 AM
WHERE DOES THE PROBLEM LIE and WHAT CAN BE DONE?
1.Where does the problem lie?
From the blog it would seem that the problem lies in a dictatorial senior pastor who was able to manipulate the trust of the congregation and maneuver himself into a position of absolute control. You simply cannot touch him. The constitution not only gives him absolute powers directly or indirectly through the deacons, but also he is senior pastor for life.
The senior pastor is not only the CEO, he is infact the owner of the church, although not its legal owner. He does not have to be the legal owner as long as he is in control and makes all the decisions. He is as good as the owner.
2.What can be done?
From the discussion in the blog it would seem that nothing can be done by man. He has no retirement age. The Staff Handbook is not applicable to him although it applies to all other pastors. The other pastors retire at 60.
Under the constitution there are no specific provisions to remove him if he is incompetent, if he is abusing his power, if he is not fulfilling his duties as a pastor, if the people lost faith in his leadership. He can only be put up for re-election if recommended by a two-third majority of the board. And who controls the board?
He can only be removed if he is guilty of a few very specific violations, mostly of a moral nature. His own board of deacons must recommend it to the members. If the board accepts his explanation, the violation would not even be brought to the members.
CC has two elders but appointed by the senior pastor. One of them was rejected by the members when standing for election as a deacon but nonetheless appointed as a senator.
3.And what have we (as church members of some other churches) learned?
I would advise that we be very mindful of the character and life-style of the senior pastor of an AOG church or an independent church not under denominational authority. That he is not seeking his own glory and not trying to create a legacy in his own image. Congregational churches are meant to be democratic but this can be but a mirage. CC is a congregational church but the constitution grants the senior pastor dictatorial powers. It may not be the constitution; it is the nature of the man. Therefore, observe his fruit and discern his spirit.
WITH SO MANY COMMENTS ON AOG CHURCHES AND THEIR SYSTEM, WHAT IS ACTUALLY WRONG WITH THEM?
ANSWER: ITS BECAUSE OF "PENTECOSTALISM" WHICH THEIR PASTORS TAUGHT AND PRACTISED. PENTECOSTALISM IS OFTEN CALLED A 'MOVEMENT'. ARE THEY TRULY FROM GOD? AND ARE THEIR DOCTRINES BIBLICAL? THE ANSWER IS A BIG "NO".
BECAUSE THEY INDULGED IN FALSE DOCTRINES, THE AOG CHURCHES ARE PLAGUED WITH ALL KINDS OF SCANDALS. THE BIBLE WARNED THOSE WHO DO NOT WORSHIPPED GOD IN HIS TRUE DOCTRINES DOES NOT BELONGED TO GOD. CALVARY CHURCH BEING A PENTECOSTAL CHURCH WILL NEVER, NEVER CHANGED OR ABANDON PENTECOSTALISM. THE ONLY WAY TO BE SET FREE IS TO LEAVE AND COME OUT OF THEM.
CHECK FROM THE WEBSITE ON ARTICLE,
" ENCYCLOPEDIA OF PENTECOSTAL MINISTRIES AND PREACHERS"
At one EGM a member read out Acts 6:1-4 to remind PG that he should not be involved in financial administration but instead concentrate on his pastoral duties. "It is not desirable that we should leave the word of God and serve tables."
PG retorted arrogantly and with great pride, "I do not serve tables."
Ha,ha,ha. PG was prophetic. A few years ago PG quoted in US that he was building a church costing US$100 million. At that time the church had approved building cost of RM150 million about US$50 million. Plus land cost total would only be US$62 million. No, he not prophetic. He inflated figure to impress the Americans.
Fr CT @ June 29, 2011 9:48 PM
Referring to June 29, 2011 4:33pm.
Yes, it was at the Saturday 4th Apr 2009 EGM (on the briefing by the Financial Governance Task Force) that PG was reminded that CC's constitution was NOT biblical as when the 1st BOD was formed in the Book of Acts, the Disciples (Pastors) just allowed the congregation to choose 7 from amongst themselves to "serve tables" while they continue to preach the word whereas PG had ensured, in the CC Constitution, that he is the Chairman &/or ex-officio member in each & every CC committee. To which PG stated that he didn't know where the member got that from.
This forced the member to pull out his Bible & read to the meeting what was written actually in the Book of Acts 6: 1 - 7 on the forming of the 1st BOD whereby NO disciple (pastor) installed himself as the Chairman of the BOD, let alone plant himself as a member of the BOD (unlike PG).
Shame on you, PG. May God bless you or blast you.
Given the fact that the collection of the church is from donations and sacrifice, then why should CC pasters' income be confidential? Why can't it be transparent?
Salaries are kept confidential because if the people know they will be horrified. The salaries cannot be justified. Some more for PG and wife the church pay for most things. Even Jackie Chan gym paid by church. Also keep all the love offerings they get when speaking elsewhere. Better than in the corporate world. Also get free Volvo costing RM400,000. Wife get Honda Civic.
A pastor who gets rich through religion is never a 'man of God'.
SP had gotten rich through it. He and his pastors had taken advantage of the members money given to God by fixing for themselves with high salaries. This is very wrong and unscriptural and by their act, they are not truly 'servants of God'.
Pastors should only received a modest salary and live a simple life to show themselves as role models for others to see and thereby live as good witness for the Lord. So why are they so afraid to let their income be known? Its members money and they have the right to know if their money had been put to good use.
TOTALLY UNCHRISTIAN LEADERS
We think we are not exaggerating when we say that by comparison the non Christian friends,associates, and acquaintances we have the privilege of knowing, earn / deserve our respect and honor. These non believers hold closely similar proper life values which are taught in the Holy Bible. We in CC are so ashamed our SP and APs can talk with such hatred against fellow Christians - from the pulpit !!! For example, SP showed his true colors by telling the congregation "to jump into the lake" if we don't like it here. Further, P S Kum once said, "I feel like giving that fellow a good walloping!" or something to that effect.
Hello, what's going on here ? How can SP, APs and Ps act and talk so arrogantly, so rudely, in church !!! And they claim to be the ones annointed by God !!! Such threatening speeches would normally be expected from gangsters, bullies and society's hardcore criminals - certainly we never expect it to come out of the mouths of "men of God" ! Such venom spewed!!! With "Christian friends" like these sinner pators, who need enemies ?
What is more sickening is these leaders claim CC to be a "fountain head church" - to a glowing example for other churches to copy and model after. These hypocrites act so "holy", so "good" at quoting Bible verses, BUT make mockery of themselves with their unGodly behavior, thoughts and speeches. We think the fruits of their spirits bear poor testimonies of what we would expect from these rogue leaders.
We strongly suspect the actions of certain members of the BOD need closer examination, to test their fruits of the spirit. We also heard allegations of one socalled elder/advisor frequenting 4D shops, ie gambling which is a no no for Christians. No wonder so many hundreds have left CC. The mass migration have left huge gaps, symbolised by empty seats among the rows and rows of pews in the main church as well as satellite sites. No wonder the congregation members are fedup, moving out in droves. No good governance. No transparency. No truths. No wonder so many had stopped contributing to CCC Fund.
So how can CC be "admired" as a "fountainhead church" ?
The inside of the church (ie charcter of the congregation AND leaders being moulded into more Christlikeness should be emphasised. The "exterior" like design and equiping of the facilities of the church (eg CCC) should be downplayed. Right now, the reverse is practised by the rogue leaders. Eg. A pastor once said, " We aim to keep you conned (oops sorry) ... comfortable in church." CCC is actively and aggressively promoted as a dream for all, but actually a symbol of a cult leader's proud and selfish dream of power and wealth. A single man's straying from the narrow path of righteousness, leading his remaining supporters to doom and despair. Check other cult leaders' history. Humiliating end for them.
Watch out. A good lesson from God is coming soon to them, very soon.
Hey, INCOME OF RM13.6 million STILL A LOT FOR A NON PROFIT ORGANISATION. But i am glad that it has dropped. If they were to have a loan again, i just wander how they service the loan?
Loan for the land and NOW LOAN FOR the building.
Yar, when i am at Calvary, they ALWAYS ASK TO GIVE EVEN WE DONT HAVE. WHAT KIND OF TEACHING?
Even the chinese congregration WERE NOT SPARED. These are ELDER people THAT DO NOT WORK AND HAVE TO DEPEND ON THEIR SONS AND DAUGHTER to give them some POCKET MONEY, they still want their monies.
Not enough, the CHINESE CONGREGRATION PASTOR birthday, THEY HAVE TO GIVE TOO. I really PITY THE ELDERLY CHINESE SPEAKING congregrations. In terms of age, they are older than the PASTOR and should be given MORE RESPECT but WHY THEY HAVE TO GIVE TO HIM. He is PAID to do GOD'S WORK, still not enough?
When ONE LAYMAN do GOD'S WORK, we DO IT BECAUSE WE LOVE GOD. NO DOUBT ABOUT IT.
Fr CT @ June 30, 2011 4:17 PM
COMMENT ON:-
Salaries are kept confidential because if the people know they will be horrified.
..................................
My family believes that SP and gang have strayed from their real calling-and I agree with the strategy of TOTT( whoever started this idea). Now my money goes to Malaysian Care & Shelter home and whatever needs God prompts us.There are needy people out ther who dont have proper food on their tables and they want to put out our money on another building?????Isnt the
present CC sufficient together with all the other properties?
SP has made enough money from preaching.True- no other AOG minister dares to take a stand against him and rightly so. After all they need his international connections and goodwill even on the local scene to have any prospect of ascending the ladder of titles,recognition and church connections.
But SP- INCLUDING HIS "YES sir" associates -have descended into a pit of lies and manipulations- even from the pulpit. SAY NO TO THESE WOLVES IN SHEEPS CLOTHING.
-escaped from CC--
Response to :-
To Anon June 28, 2011 12:18 PM.
"IF ANYONE OF YOU THINK I AM PREACHING PROSPERITY GOSPEL, YOU CAN GO JUMP IN THE LAKE".
...............................
Well as far as me and our family, friends are concerned- HE CAN GO AND JUMP IN THE LAKE FIRST!!!!
Not only has he said the above he has also said- "go take another bus!!"
I fear Godly men and will never crtiticize them . Right now there is nothing to fear from ungodly frauds --SP and gang.
He is a fake and skillful liar. His reputation is smeared. Why cant he just step down and leave?Like he has no sense of shame!! IF A PASTOR CAN COME TO THE POINT OF TELLING THE CHURCH TO GO JUMP IN THE LAKE- YOU CAN JUST IMAGINE HIS OWN PATHETIC SPIRITUAL CONDITION.Like King Saul of the OT- he is playing the fool.
I think the curtains coming down real soon.
CC- a church that exists for begging $$$$(not a fountain head church)
TO THANKS TO TTG.
Since this blog contains many articles about Pastors-my Pastor has become even more fearsome from behind the pulpit.To him this blog is operated by troublesmakers " who have gone astray after Satan"
He is an intimidating sort of character-seems to know the bible so well( I read the Bible about once a week- on Sunday's).
Something seems to be bothering this man.Whatever it is-I hope he will get over it soon.
He should tone down because he is not preaching for free but gets paid for it- just like any employee out there.Once during preaching he said" We Pastors belong to a different class". What class? I though they were supposed to be servants of Christ.
I am an officer in a Bus company- and if he were to apply for a job with us- we can only take him in as a bus conductor.But with his " Bachelor in Theology" he considers himself a class by itself.All his Pastor friends are the same too- they like to hang around the teh tarik stalls "talking ministry".
Last weeks prayer meeting- " All those who visit this blog need to be prayed over". He was just so depressing-so I just went down for a smoke and later for a quiet beer.At least no one was shouting at us there.
..................................
As the senior Pastor SP should never ask anybody to jump into the lake.He is behaving disgracefully these days.All these days it was the members contributions that put bread on his family table and now he is behaving like this.
His suit does not look cheap either.I am afraid we have a Judas within the house- and he is very dangerous.
A LAW LECTURERS ANALYSIS OF CC's PRESENT STATE.
One of the most salient and noticeable features of our CC culture right now is that there is so much Bullshit.Everyone suspects this and quite a few KNOW THIS personally.The SP & AP's contribute their own share continuously.Most members are rather confident of their ability to recognize SP's Pulpit Bullshit and to avoid being taken in by it.So the phenomenon has not aroused much concern nor attracted a private investigation on this disturbing and elusive topic until lately.
In consequence,we have no clear understanding of what CC's Bullshit is,where it came from-why there is so much of it,and what function it serves.And we lack a developed appreciation of what it means to us.In other words we have no clue and no precise theory to pin SP's crap.So I tried to begin the development of a theoretical understanding of CC's Bullshit,mainly by providing some philosophical analysis.I shall not consider the rhetorical uses and misuses of CC Pulpit Bullshit.My aim is simply to give this topic a proper investigation and to articulate understandably,more or less sketchily,the structure and nature of its existence.
However, even after 3 years of painstaking research- I must admit that I have been a failure in this aspect and I have left CC for good.
PLEASE FORGIVE MY FAILURES.FINALLY LEFT CC.IT SEEMS THE CHURCH IS HELPLESS WITH SP AND GANG- IT APPEARS THEY STILL CALL THE SHOTS?
Sp started well but I believe the love of $$$ and glory set in. If there was a strong board at CC- then the present situation could have been avoided. Imagine sacking Dr. Lum and issuing a letter briefly stating the reasons why he was sacked. SP thinks he is a somebody now.And then later the 400
Then from the pulpit telling long terms members to go and jump in the lake. He is not the Pastor we knew- today he has become what the Bible describes "A rebrobate concerning the faith"- and that goes for all his AP's too.
I have a list of half true statements from the Pulpit made by SP- I tell you SP can mislead without blinking an eyelid.Satan has already got hold of him!!
Hi,
Can anyone tell why the original plan of builing a bigger church on the current Damansara Heights plot was cancelled? I heard from someone (who knows the Architect) that the building plan has been approved by the authorities.
All Satan wants is people fighting against each other. The longer the fight, the more happy he is.
God please forgive me
Reply to Suomi Nona
It was cancelled because other AOG churches were being planned and they were bigger than CC's extension- surely SP's ego will never allow that - with his bullshit about CC being a fountain head church.
To him church should resemble a palace- together with all its trimmings.SP is a millionaire - although he tries to hide it.I think he has enough dough to drive a Porsche.
Telling others to jump into the lake..?? ha...ha...ha...SP has been converted into an AOG super idiot...and a professional beggar... the rest of the AOG leaders are quietly sitting with their tails in between their legs.
CAN SOMEONE PLEASE TELL THIS MAN TO GET OFF THE STAGE?? HE HAS BECOME A REAL EYE SORE.
EX-Calvarite.( & also AXED)
Today is Sunday and the Pastor was at it again- blasting bloggers who publisize church weaknesses by blogging. He quoted from 1 Cor 6 and said all church problems must be settled within the church itself.
Yeah!! But what if the church leader is backslidden and refuses to listen??
As far as I know most of the youth are bloggers or visit blogs.It is certainly a vain thing to try to muzzle them - using a pulpit as though these were divine messages from above.
Has he the right to order the church not to visit blogs?? Who is he to be telling others what to do? He should not get fidgety but just preach the Gospel- thats what the church pays him for.
He wants the church to believe that his private inner life is white as snow? Face the reality man- we are ALL described as sinners- and THAT GOES FOR THE "DIFFERENT CLASS" PASTORS TOO!!!
We are walking in "days of new terror and uncertainity as evidenced by natural disasters all around the planet on an "increasing scale" with more "surprises to come" from the -heavens- itself between now and the year end, yet
mankind including "all Malaysians" of course, are going about their normal selfish and indulgent ways seeking material riches and gains while ethics and morals plunge into new depths......
MORNING STAR.
to:Suomi Nona who asked this question
Can anyone tell why the original plan of builing a bigger church on the current Damansara Heights plot was cancelled? I heard from someone (who knows the Architect) that the building plan has been approved by the authorities.
The correct answer is:
The plan was cancelled although approved by the authorities because the neighbours living around the church objected very strongly to having a bigger building because of the heavy traffic they envisaged.
Please
EX-Calvarite.( & also AXED) - do not comment if you do not know the actual version.
The court case failed to make any impact to PG, but 2 things are capable and he is so afraid of it.
(1) Turn Off the Tap (TOTT)
His dependant and trust is in money, not God. So when the money is not pouring in, he is shaken; so are the APs who in some small ways also exploit church money for themselves.
(2) Bring Greater Awareness (BGA)
PG concern much about reputation, adn BGA attack directly that. BGA also spread the passion of TOTT. The more people know about his corruption, the more people will TOTT.
These are the main 2 things that ought to be carried out. Unfortunately, it has not been best done as it ought to. As someone say that 13 million for nonprofit organization is still a lot. And the fact that they can get multiple bank loan and public donation, really showing that BGA is not well done either.
The worse case scenario i could imagine that could happen to Christianity in Malaysia is that CCC main hall is able to be constructed and PG continue to be arrogant. The saga goes on with CT remains merely an isolated blog.
It's GREAT to know that TOTT is succeeding to slow down PG but, yes, we probably need to BGA (Bring Greater Awareness) of PG's misdeeds to all others (especially those still in CC) ..............
1. PG moving RM 1.9m quietly over 5 years from CC's coffers to his personal ministry (CIM),
2. PG sacking Dr Lum (deacon who step down & exposed PG's indiscretions & misdeeds, including the Jackie Chan gym membership, PG grandchild's air expenses, etc., etc.
3. PG sacking the 400,
4. PG sacking more members lately,
5. PG keeping the money collected for the Indonesian Earth Quake victims in his personal ministry,
6. etc.,
7. etc.,
GOD is GREAT as I understand that PG used to (I hope he doesn't do it anymore) put his LOTT (Legs On The Table) against those who saw him alone & whom he was displeased.
Is this how a sheperd should behave - putting his LOTT against his sheep?
For PG's LOTT antics, he is now being hit with the members TOTT action. Keep it up you guys with the TOTT & BGA against this fallen man who put his LOTT against his own sheep.
re posting July 3 2011 12:37 pm ie “Today is Sunday and the Pastor was at it again- blasting bloggers who publisize church weaknesses by blogging. He quoted from 1 Cor 6 and said all church problems must be settled within the church itself.”
PG is a regular reader of this blog (directly or indirectly) which means he and his APs and the bod are aware of the church’s weaknesses and the grievances, complaints of its church members. Common, man, it is not the church’s weakness – it is PG and his gang that created these weaknesses in the first instance resulting in embarrassments to themselves when they could not respond to the members’ queries.
And being aware of all the problems they (ie SP, etc.) have created, has he done anything to correct the situation? When attempts were made by the expelled Calvarites to resolve the problems, did PG genuinely show his sincerity to meet them to rectify matters? Is that the way he wants to have “church problems settled within the church itself”? Tell us you are doing the right thing????
PG, his APs and bod know what they ought to do to correct matters – (a) scrap the pastor as head of the church system and the lopsided constitution that CC has, and (b) let CC have a democratic system governed by a council of qualified elders like what the NT early Christians practice. FGA is an example of NT early Christian practice of church governance by elders rather than by a single pastor.
What more can we ask from you, SP?
PANIC BUTTONS
Sunday July 3, 2011 marks another heightened level of anxiety and worry for SP. In other words, he hit his panic buttons. This Sunday SP did not "lepak", delgating the sermon delivery to one of his APs. In fact, he diligently turn up for work !
Want to know why ?
He is worried, very worried ...
about poor church attendance.
B'cos he over emphasised "the importance of regular church attendance". Nothing wrong with that, except he got a hidden agenda, a secret motive about crucial need for our "regular church attendance" b'cos attendance is dropping, dropping and dropping !!! Actually, SP is not so concerned about our spiritual wellbeing - BUT it is more about his own (SP's) financial wellbeing. Soon - No money coming in. B'cos Turn Off The Tap works very effectively. For those who are not aware esp newcomers, SP's own lawyer said that the congregation got no right to ask anything about your church contributions to CC/CCC, especially for what it is used for, how much, why, who and other details. In other words, to put it bluntly we the congregation got no right to ask for transparency, accountability and good governance form SP and other CC "leaders" about our own money to church !
For more clarification, "TOTT" means we the congregation (and the public) should stop giving to CC's collections - no more giving regular tithes, faith promises, faith pledges, love offerings, and any other donations, etc to CCC and/or CC). We may choose to direct our contributions to other churches, charities, caring organisations, orphanages, old folks homes,etc.
Keep on TOTT ! Repent SP.
Transforming from rich fat cat to poor church mouse ? Ha ha ha .
DISCERNING MALAYSIAN CHRISTIANS
I have been following the blog while in the USA. I am excited and thrilled at the spiritual maturity and discernment of the Bloggers.
One cannot deny that Calvary Today has provided a platform for Malaysian Christian to voice and question unbiblical practices within some Malaysian Churches. Those I serve in the USA are eagerly following the happending at Calvary Church.
Surely the discussions in the blog have served to enlighten Christians on some of the dangers within the Church.
I assure you some Christian leaders are uncomfortable with this Blog - mainly because it has exposed their own unethical practices too and now their congregation wants answers.
Of course these leaders warn their congregations not to visit CC by labeling it 'washing dirty laundry in public' or 'CT is a tool of the devil' etc. Sometimes, even genuine incidents are ‘edited out in other churches/publications’ to ‘preserve the status quo’.
However, let us take heart, if our Master was called all sorts of name while He was on earth, surely, those who serve Him will not be spared.
Vijay
IS CALVARY CHURCH A SOLO CHURCH?
Then why none of its pastors attending the PASTORS SUMMIT 2011 on 5-6 July 2011?
Is it because they are:
i) too shy to meet other pastors?
ii) higher status than others?
iii) not bothered to be part of the Christian community in Malaysia?
iv) Too busy cleaning up the house?
v) too smart?
vi) being isolated?
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