What is happening with the Calvary Convention Center (CCC)?
Why has the construction of the CCC stopped?
How much have the Church really collected for this project?
How much have actually been spent so far?
Who is responsible for this?
Many Calvarites have asked these questions to PG, the senior pastor of the Church, to some associate pastors and to the BOD. Some members have also written letters to them seeking answers and clarification. The answer given by both PG and his wife to members is that it is the work of Satan through the TTG people and the legal action taken by them. The CCC committee and other church leaders are also mimicking this same reply to members.
On the 4 June 2010, at the Friday night Prayer Meeting, Dato’ JK Han, an ex-deacon, gave a short announcement on the three options available to the Church on the Calvary Convention Center (CCC).
1. The Church can abandon the project and lose everything.
2. The Church can continue with the development at an additional cost of RM36 million to the previously announced RM150 million upping the total construction to RM186 million not including the land cost of RM35 million.
3. The Church can build the project themselves. We have no idea what he meant by this.
1. The Church can abandon the project and lose everything.
2. The Church can continue with the development at an additional cost of RM36 million to the previously announced RM150 million upping the total construction to RM186 million not including the land cost of RM35 million.
3. The Church can build the project themselves. We have no idea what he meant by this.
Option 1 and 3 are clearly non-starters so the members were really being told indirectly that the project would now cost a total of at least RM221 million when completed. This is not inclusive of furniture, fittings and AV system.
From past practices the BOD was not seeking for approval from the members on that Friday night. They just wanted to have the justification, in case they are queried, that they had already informed the members.
Why not call for an EGM for this to be discussed and approved by the members?
It is because making an announcement at a prayer meeting is far safer for the BOD than having an EGM. Members cannot ask questions and there will be no minutes to record what was said at a Prayer Meeting.
However, at an EGM the BOD is obliged to give a full report on the CCC and would have to answer questions from the members. They really cannot face the members on this great big fiasco. So they stick to their usual practice. Give the members the barest of information and then just carry on, holding members responsible later because they were already informed and they stood in prayer signifying agreement and acceptance of the Church Leadership’s decision.
To PG and BOD, the members are only required to provide the funding. They are not to ask any questions. They must submit to the spiritual authority of PG and the BOD without question. This is the subtle way, the church leaders have always used. At a time when members least expect it, announcements will be made and through non-disclosure of material facts, members are asked to make a quick judgement call which will nonetheless seemed to be approved by the members present then.
When something goes wrong, they are quick to blame the members (as witnessed by the BOD's reply to questions concerning the CC Constitution at the last year's AGM. Members were reminded that they themselves approved the Constitution back in 1985 so now they have to stick by it) and in the case of CCC now, they put the blame on TTG and the legal action.
This fiasco was not caused by TTG’s action. The TTG is only asking for truth, transparency and godly governance. The issue of the CCC was not in any of the TTG’s Resolutions submitted for the past EGM or AGM. It is also not part of the injunction granted by the High Court. PG and the BOD cannot blame the TTG for this fiasco. It is a folly completely of their own making.
Who is the real culprit?
The project was doomed from the start because it was not God’s vision but PG’s personal glory seeking vision. Look around the big churches in the Klang Valley. When inspired by God all the projects went smoothly. DUMC raised all the RM40+ million through one appeal. SIB was fully paid for because the senior pastor left the entire project management and fund raising to others in the church. The same goes for FGA. PJEFC and GT were fully paid for within a very short time. The obstacles faced by Metro Tabernacle were overcome through divine intervention. If it is of God, it will be done and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
What do we know about the CCC now?
The CCC shall continue to be a burden on the Church and the members for many more years to come. Here are some observations for you to think about.
1. When the land purchase was approved we were told that construction cost would be about RM50 million at the first meeting. It then escalated to RM80 million at a leaders' meeting and then at RM150 million when finally presented to the members. Like the frog we were slowly being boiled alive.
2. The design was done by a freemason. Many have seen visions of cobras and other snakes when looking at the design. To some the design resembles the coffin of the pharaoh.
3. Jim Guneratnam was appointed the project director without an ounce of construction or development experience.
4. The main contractor Nam Fatt was in very poor financial condition at the time when they were appointed.
5. Nam Fatt had to ask for an advance of RM8 million. The BOD approved the advance without even looking at Nam Fatt’s audited accounts.
6. The performance bond was secured by a guarantee from Nam Fatt Berhad instead of the usual bank guarantee. So there is no way for the church to recover anything for non-performance.
7. The extravagance was not in keeping with principles of Christian stewardship. For RM200 million it should be a 20,000 seating church not a 5,000 seater only.
8. Work was stopped in April 2009, more than a year ago. The BOD only informed the members in October 2009 through a short announcement by Steven Kum again at a Friday prayer meeting. This was only after the contract period ended on 14 October and the BOD had no choice. Even at the June 2009 AGM the BOD was still bluffing the members and claiming that everything was alright with the project.
As stewards of God’s money, members must ask for an EGM to know what is really going on and hold PG and the BOD accountable for this multi million Ringgit fiasco.
36 comments:
Anyone know why CC is having a combined church service at the Sime Darby Convention Centre on Sunday July 4?
June 20, 2010 2:13 PM
One thing is sure. We can say everything here but Prince Guneratnam & his deacons gang will always try to silent our voice. He sack the 400 members to silent the voice that poit to his sins. He pretend ignorance as though as nothing happen, in order to keep the issue of his corruption in low profile. He steal from the church & yet want the congregation to focus on something else, anything other than his robbery. We must speak up to say that it is not ok to forget the past robbery, it is hypocrite to pretend ignorance, & it is wrong to paint a happy and wealthy church when in reality things have gone so bad. Tell the members, it is not ok to pretend nothing happen. Their so called "joy" is a joy of negligence.
June 20, 2010 6:39 PM
4th July - advance for CCC (announced at 10.30am service today - DH). Does this mean that PG & Team are asking for members (or whoever attends Calvary Church) to give in advanced what they would give for this year? Sounds like they are desperate for money. Let's all turn up and "give", OK?
June 21, 2010 2:12 AM
If I remember correctly, they have did it (Advances to the church) before. Advance means lend money to church. They will give it back to members who lends. I am not sure those who advanced their money before got their money back...
June 21, 2010 9:40 AM
Maybe it is to celebrate the US's Independence Day. I wonder how much is the rental for that Sunday at the Sime Darby Convention Centre.
June 21, 2010 11:12 AM
we be there to give generously!
we have just 20 questions.we will circulate at the entrance, car parks and within the service!
gladly ask, glady we give!
June 21, 2010 1:54 PM
Hm very interesting.....suggest u get a copy of the circular handed out to members outlining the call for advance from members. Is it right for them to encourage those retired with gratuity and Epf to advance to the church?
As GUNERATNAMS can have 5 houses in USA, why don't they sell them and give proceeds to CCC? Those houses there are really superflous since all the Guneratnams work in Malaysiua. For your information, they are all supported by CC members who give them their salary, pay for their electricity bills at home, dog food etc. They can make claims as and when they like - unlimited privileges.
EPF are funds which retired people need to buy their monthly food and basic expenses. At the rate the church spends money like building an access road to CCC at 100k+ which does not link anywhere, spend money renting Sime Darby Convention Centre on 4/7/10 to let members 'feel the comfort of a convension centre - like CCC in future' is frankly a gimmick for all of those attending to participate in giving loans. Did not Delmar Guynes mentioned CCC is funded by Calvary, no need loan? Who is lying now?
Fellow Calvarites, if you love the Lord and want His kingdom expand, do not pour money needlessly into ccc which even Guneratnams do not want to fund themselves!!!
TURN OF THE TAP SUPPORTER
Winds of Change, they returned the money to the members already. You will notice it in the Annual Report that member's advances is not listed anymore.
I heard that members have told PG and deacns that taking advance or deposit is illegal and against bank negara rules. Only banks can collect deposit from the public. This is an offence that can go to jail if caught.
What I heard is that this coming 4th July combined service at Sime Darby Convention Centre is to once again ask the members and worshipers to advance their hard-earned money for the CCC building fund.
Why haven't PG, his APs and the BOD learnt? They are digging the hole deeper and deeper each time with their so-called God's vision/plan. Do you all still doubt that CCC is NOT God's plan BUT PG's personal self-glorifying vision?
I suggest that all of us (including those who are now worshiping elsewhere) to go to Sime Darby Convention Centre on the 4th July and question them on the status of CCC etc. If they are not coming to us for the answers, let us all go to them then. Get the press there as well. They would love to write something about CC/CCC as a follow up to their earlier reports.
Does CC really need to go to Sime Darby Convention Centre for a combined service. They could have just have it in DH. How many members/worshipers do they have now after all? What a waste of funds! The only reason I could think of is that PG is playing a psychological game here by wanting the attendees to have a "feel good feeling" when they're in the SDCC. Then he would say things like, "when the CCC is completed, we'll have more space. more seating capacity, and you'll be able to worship the Lord more comfortably, better than what you're feeling now."
Be very careful with his scheme. Don't be a part of his scheme.
Fools' folly! The deacons are making fools of themselves! I am really so disappointed with them! They are supposed to be protecting the church [and the members']'s interests but instead are protecting the Guneratnams' interests!!
Once again they are resorting to spiritual brain washing. Get the people to come to a combined service where the attendance is artificially exaggerated just for that Sunday. Work them up emotionally with a heart stirring message supported by scriptures quoted out of context. They will forget that they had been conned all along with half truths and deception. Make them feel guilty if they do not support "God's vision". After all PG and gang are not asking for contribution, just temporary loan from out of your surplus cash. You will get your money back when you need it. This time I am not so sure you can get your money back. If you cannot get your money back who do you sue? You cannot sue the church because it is not a legal entity. Maybe you can sue PG and the deacons. Ask them how are they to ensure that there will be cash available to repay you when you need it. However, you cannot ask questions as this is a Sunday service not an EGM. Only one way communication. Just brain washing to get you to pledge to lend without collateral and without security.
CCC: A BOTTOMLESS PIT
No matter how much
member's money is poured into CCC, it can never
ever suffice..it is a BLACK HOLE that can never be covered.
Be forewarn: even with the call for advance
RM36 MILLION to add to the bank loan of RM35 Million, + all cash in hand, breaking the coffer-- the "sanctuary" will NOT be functional!!! it will just to have the state-of the art roof place over the 'hall' which remains an empty Shell. It is to prevent the steel rods from roting and the basement from flooding, which PG & BOD have already spent more $$$ to do remedy works
PG & BOD are already playing the BLAME game between themselves--they realised either PG or them will one day be charged--and each of them is trying to 'get-out' of the whirlpool of mess, but only find themselves sinking deeper & deeper..
Their audacity to ask for ADVANCE$ from the congregation, esp Retirees (while they locked-away their $$$&possessions) showed they are outright cold blooded 'crooks'.
they think they can put anything eevrything into us as if it is a toilet!just trust and obey sp guna, all be well , all be blessed! that happened over 30 yrs! i wont be surprised this is sp last hurrah ..if he doesnt get the money.all is nect 1st class flight to big apple. the associate pastors deacons abetting with him . never had the history of any church ever had asked for advance tithes , love offering, building fnds..there is this chinese saying, if you dont have a big head, dont try the big hat.
perhaps sp is not a wise man. with all these fiascos, embrassments, any light minded person would have seek leave.
has c c come to a point, we cannot survive without sp or we simply die heart..fear of change!
turn off the tap..turn on our eyes ears and mouth!
4th july is the turning point .
PG1, PG2 & family are wolves in sheep's clothing, all out to find more ways to fleece the sheep, to suck them dry, so that they can enjoy the lavish life of the rich & famous. What about the deacons of Calvary Church? Well, sad to say, they are the yes-men AND yes-woman who are running with the wolves, collaborating with them to rob the sheep of their wool & meat so that they can get that "PG pat" on their backs!
...even Guneratnams do not want to fund themselves!!!
1) They ( PGs ) still have not sold their bungalows and earthly possessions and contributes their sale proceeds to CCC ?
2) Also no sacrifices from the Associate Pastors, Assistant Pastors, BOD & Elders to sell their houses to contribute to CCC ??
desperate time for sp, the tax man is after him, the court is ON him, the membes watching him...staff are shivering on him....one question : what is c c financial position today? how much assets we have, debts accumulated and collateral with the bank and creditors?
begging, coercing members, senior citizen money ,,promising blessing eternity dont work anymore..we are accountable ourselves !
if c c is to be insolvent..it be god will then.
should c c be taught a lesson, sp and his pastors, deacons must HOLD RESPONSIBILITIES WITH THEIR ASSETS NOT OURS.they had the stage glorified too long, it PAY BACK TIME.
"Unless the Lord builds the house,
They labor in vain who build it;" Psalm 127:1
CLASSLESS WHEN IT COMES TO GIVING
Refence the handout
FOR LG Leaders to help them prepare LG members for advance to ccc the church spelt out who can give advance
"all church members - voting members, associate members, junior and inactive members"
This is really ridiculous because for agm, egm it is a different set of rules
ONLY Voting Members can receive annual report, they can vote and ask 2 questions.
Associate Members can attend but cannot receive annual report, cannot vote or ask questions.
Inactive members has no rights at all - no annual report, can't attend AGM, EGM
So why is cc leadership NOT setting barriers? Simple - when it comes to money, anyone can give but when it involves a say, so sorry lah - you do not qualify.
Think before parting with money - maybe later they will only return money to voting members because they apparently have more rights.
Has CC run foul of the finance laws when it accepted deposits from members? Has CC got any approval to do this? If not, then members who gives any advances or deposits to CC will be abetting CC in breaking the law.
Can CC legally accept advances or deposits from members that on the membership rolls?
Will those in the accounting profession or financial consultants especially in the money in market share their opinions in this matter.
Whatever it is, I will not part with my hard earned money for a project that has spiraled to an incredible height from RM50M to RM216M (if including the options to continue). When and if CCC is completed, it will not be far from CHC's SGD310M church!!! CC does not provide any details on how the cost keep escalating, they only say "architect's error" (what a joke), inflation, contractor failed to perform. And yet ask members to give, give and give blindly. Isn't this the usual practice in CC - what I ask and you just give. So, I better keep my money!
the writing has been on the way for sp and likewise for us!these 4th july grand show is just one major activity to keep some people hopeful of c c c , another distraction while silently sp and family sneaked as much as he could to u s a. if one had noticed, last 3 yrs his frequent trip ..is one GOOD GUESS AS MINE!
ARE WE going to let him conned our money, abused our good faith? leaving the left over pastors and deacons?
these leftovers have concerted abetted a grand scheme on c c c.EVEN some of these pastors associates and deacons are fully awared, they cant get out.some had stood gurantor , some had benefited in kind. TRAPPED!
WE must change , have courage to change NOW! WHAT worse cant it be ?
we still have our family work to move on, we still can attend another church.we have options ! they dont. that why they are fighting tooth to tooth , there so much to gain.it their livelihood!
when one is desperate, pushed into the open.i believe there be MORE DIRTY SCHEMES , TRICKS AHEAD OF CALVARY CHURCH!
STOP THE CON!
This is a good article about God and money. http://www.crown.org/Library/ViewArticle.aspx?ArticleId=406
Once bitten twice Shy..
The $$$ ADVANCE, record and experience showed during the previous rounds, it as tough to get back
the advance:
1. PG & BOD did not return the $$$ when the "time"
( they had promised!) was due..
2. The person has to ask, remind them ( and PG & BOD & Assoc Pastors get 'up-set', expressing their 'displeasure' of you asking and give you a "how dare you" stare...
3. Lot's of delay tactics used to fend you off
4. Until you finally have to "threaten" them, or give
a sob-sob story...
5. In the end, PG, BOD, Asst Pas. they have a way to make you feel guilty for asking Advance back!!!
--you will be told "you have no faith", or
"don't ask back for $$$, as it will be counted as great blessing to you" or " it's for kingdom work, you know" etc etc.
Lastly, check their record on promised deadline--
Congregation was told CCC will be completed and have Christmas service, first in 2008 then in 2009--never took place.
- PG , BOD and Ass Pas keep moving the completion date, leading the Congregation on. They will never tell you the truth of the situation--right up even at this break point. All in the dark.
Go back further, and check how many times PG has changed the New Church Building Vision over 15 (FIFTEEN YEARS!
Want to give "ADVANCE", still?
Can they be allowed to go scott free?
And can you condone their blatant deceit?
1. PG & BOD absolutely has no sense of
Responsibility & Accountability.
2. They withhold truth, cover-up their mistakes, and continue to lie through their teeth...without batting an eyelid.
PG & BOD, Assoc Pas, CCC Building Commitee have all committed GROSS NEGLIGENCE in the entire project of over RM200,000,000++ which now results in a FINANCIAL CATASTROPHE i.e. bankrupt the church completely.
TO: Genesispassion said...
I SINCERELY HOPE YOU WILL MEAN & DO WHAT YOU SAID:
"we be there to give generously!
we have just 20 questions.we will circulate at the entrance, car parks and within the service!
gladly ask, glady we give!
June 21, 2010 1:54 PM
I BELIEVE YOU HAVE THE FULL SUPPORT OF ALL THOSE WHO BELIEVE IN THE TTG CAUSE.
Totally lost TRUST for PGs, Assoc Pastors, Asst Pastors, BOD, Elders and CCC building committee members !
Very Sorry, NO MORE MONEY or CASH ADVANCE for CCC ! We have sacrificed enough for the misguided CCC project!
Winds of change
Ask Raymond Y if you want to know about Pam's house that was sold.
He does all the running for PG.
Now is the time to call all that are still in Calvary not to give the advance.
A sister E.Lee gave an advance previously. When she heard from the TTG that CC does not practise tranparency, she asked for the adanvce from CC. After that she was demoted from VM to AM without and reason.
Money can come from all members ie.VM,AM,JM,IM.
VM = Visible Money
AM = Additional Money
JM = Junior's Money
IM = Impossible Money
I suspected they were planning to run away & settle permanently in the US, when Pam resigned (purportedly to continue her studies), so this proves their long-term plans. I said this to my family when I first heard the news that she wanted to take no-pay leave to go to the US.
Learn from CHC,SG....http://forums.asiaone.com/showthread.php?t=30277&page=369
I understand what you are saying. To Touchstone, Melvin and other CHC-ers, Ps Kong and Ps Sun are heroes to them. Anyone who whistleblows on their leaders' mischief would be considered as "Judas"
What they have failed to realize is that the leadership of the church has already betrayed her members. But some of the younger ones or staff will see no wrong in their leaders. They are not able to discern and see through their intent.
The theology of City Harvest is so work-centered. You have to work your way toward "approval". Tithing, Offering, Building Fund, Morning Prayer Meeting, 365 Prayer Meeting, Fasting etc. are all good spiritual activities. But these should be practiced out of genuine revelation of individuals rather than guilt-driven.
So when they see Ps Kong fasting 40 days, laying hands on people, casting demons, giving huge altar calls, they think this guy can do no wrong because he is so "spiritual"
Ps Kong will then explain "I am so anointed because I......"
The blank is where he sets his own conditions, rather than explaining that this is the finished work of the cross which anyone who has that revelation of Christ can too, receive from Him.
They see all the huge charitable works Ps Kong and Ps Sun have done and not realizing the money actually comes from the congregation's tithes and offering which they gave themselves in the first place. Why can't they see that? Because every school, hospital, homes are named after Sun although the money really comes from the church accounts siphoning through all these commercial companies.
Take a look at City Care, first they say Sun started this company, then to help Pastor Tan get his social entrepreneur award, they say it is started by Pastor Tan and when the investigation of COC begins, they say City Care is started by ordinary members like Victor. I wonder how many members see the inconsistency but of course they wouldn't. They would reason that it is not important as long as "good works" are done. And when they can't reason with you logically, they would smug at you and say
"Who are you to judge?"
"How many souls have you saved?"
"How much have you given to charity?"
"How many hospitals have you built?"
"How many orphanages have you built?"
Ps Kong is smart to attribute every good work to his wife to justify her career, although really if you think about it, there's only one possible source of income- CHC. Every business entity including Xtron are making losses.
CHC, don't blame the tabloids, media and government.
Blame your leader for a lack of genuine transparency and personal ambition.
Dear Readers,
We just received news that Pam's house in Taman Tun may not have been sold yet.
We have been informed that the requested sale price is set at a much higher price because of the extensive renovation works.
As this is not a confirmed piece of news, we will ask all readers not to further speculate on Pam's house.
We will however confirm that we are aware that Pam's house was put out in the market for sale recently.
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