It is really baffling why our Board of Deacons (BOD) and Senior Pastor (SP) are bent on causing further confusion and division in our embattled church.
As a few readers have pointed out, Calvary is behaving more like a political party than a church, having “ceramahs” for selected members to win votes for the forthcoming AGM.
Since last Thursday, the BOD and pastors have called Life Group leaders and other Ministries’ leaders to DH for small group briefings. Each group is said to be not more than 20 people. The presenters/speakers are the pastors, deacons and selected leaders.
There is only 1 agenda and that is to share and explain the issues mentioned by Dr Lum in his private resignation letter to SP. The said letter of resignation as a deacon was written by Dr Lum to SP, with copies extended to the deacons. Most of the issues in the said resignation letter (as revealed now by the deacons and pastors) are the same as the ones published in the CT interview with Dr Lum (read “Interview with Dr Lum Part 1 and II” found in Blog Archive, December 2008). However, the deacons and pastors at last Thursday and Saturday briefings have also brought out a few other issues which were contained in Dr Lum’s letter but not highlighted in the CT interview.
Coming to the briefings, the format of the presentation is as follows. 3 pre-selected individuals will each present a batch of issues raised by Dr Lum. He/She will then elaborate on the “Concerns Raised” and “Opinions Formed” in respect of each of the issues and then explain the “Church Perspective” on those issues.
The “Opinions Formed” are opinions which Dr Lum’s statements had presumably caused to be raised. In other words, when you read Dr Lum’s statements, these are the opinions you will form. This is controversial because Dr Lum, in highlighting the issues may not necessarily have intended to imply anything or create any opinion other than to voice his concerns. As you read the later part of this post, you will be able to put this in perspective.
The “Church Perspective” is basically the BOD’s explanation and justification of the issues raised. A couple of the justification or explanation actually contradict the findings of the auditors, Bro Tam and Bro Chow which were presented to members at the last EGM on 4th April 2009.
At these small group briefings, the pastors and deacons also emphasized more than once that they are fully standing behind SP and that they have full trust in his leadership.
Looking at the readers’ comments coming in to CT, there appears to be some confusion as to who were called and who will be called. Although sources have informed us that only Life Group leaders and other Ministries’ leaders are called to attend these briefings, some members believe that voting members are also being invited. Adding to the confusion, at least 1 member has commented that his wife was invited but he was left out. The latest news is that members are now being called to attend the briefings over the next few days.
From the above and if you read on, we can clearly see that the BOD and SP are still at their old game of twisting facts and side-stepping the real issues. After the theatrical act of SP seeking forgiveness IF he has done wrong or hurt anyone at the Putra Stadium, we thought that, he and the BOD would have become wiser and be truly humble, loving and open. Apparently, they have not changed but instead are more adamant on having things done their way.
The only concrete change that we have noticed is that SP has re-designated himself as Senior Executive Pastor. This was announced in the latest Calvary News. Time and again, SP has insisted that we are a church and therefore, we should not follow the world system and now he changes his title to follow the world. Just what is wrong with a simple “Senior Pastor” title? We hope that his self re-designation does not come with a salary raise. It will be a scandal then. (For consistency and to avoid confusion, we will continue to use the acronym “SP”)
Back to the matter at hand, it was so clear at the recent EGM that if Dr Lum’s issues were to be discussed, the members would want him to be present to tell his side of the story. Ignoring that, the BOD and pastors have now instead, organized these small group briefings to give their own explanation of the issues without any opportunity for Dr Lum to defend himself. This is obviously the BOD and SP’s desperate attempt to “divide and conquer” the hearts and minds of the members. Such an action will only cause more confusion and even more disunity in the Church.
The whole exercise is pure propaganda with the sole aim to win the votes of the leaders and members at the coming AGM on 19 June. But we believe the members are now wiser and will not be fooled anymore.
For the benefit of those who are not invited and may not be invited for the briefings, we set out below a summary of the briefing notes and what was presented to the attendees.
Please note that the Concern Raised, Opinions Formed and Church Perspective are taken almost word for word from the briefing notes, presentation by the various Church leaders and reconfirmed by us listening to the audio recordings of a few sessions.
PART I
Issue 1 : Witch Hunting and Pulpit Bashing
1a. Witch Hunting (Issue not raised by Dr Lum in CT interview)
Concern Raised
SP was vindictive and ordered that leaders supporting the TTG meetings be removed from serving in the church immediately after the AGM.
Opinions Formed
a. SP is revengeful, merciless and has no love.
b. The Pastors who carried out the witch-hunt were following orders from SP.
Church Perspective (BOD’s Perspective)
a. The church conducts an annual review of leaders including communion servers.
b. Pursuant to the review which ended the week after the 2008 AGM in March, some leaders were not reappointed and interpreted it as a punitive action.
c. In previous years, the annual reviews were done at the end of each year but however, in 2008, the reviews were completed only after the AGM.
d. It was a matter of bad timing and misunderstood as a witch-hunt.
e. The pastors also acted on their own accord.
CT Comments
Although the church may argue that it was bad timing and not a witch-hunt, the fact remains that out of the 19 leaders who were relieved of their duties, 12 were known TTG core members and supporters. A few of the remaining 7 stood up to vote for transparency at the AGM which probably led to their sacking. The church claims that a few were relieved because they wanted to step down but no one has been able to verify this. As to the statement that the pastors acted on their own accord, any Calvarite who has been long enough in our church can tell you that none of our pastors would dare to act on their own accord. SP’s dictatorial leadership style is well known among the members and staff alike.
1b. Pulpit bashing
Concern Raised
SP’s conduct while preaching is un-Christian like, injecting personal remarks to hurt and divide the congregation.
Opinions Formed
SP misused the pulpit to rebuke TTG supporters, inciting hatred and disunity in church and preach partial truth teachings.
Church Perspective (BOD’s Perspective)
a. The pulpit ministry is always conducted with reverence and respect. There is clear understanding that is it not be used to hit out at anyone or to promote any personal causes.
b. The understanding of sermons preached and any remarks made from the pulpit must take into account the content, intent and context of the entire message.
c. Each of the expression used were made with the intent of promoting spiritual growth of the whole congregation.
d. Pas Dag Mills has preached the same message at many places (are you a snake or a sheep?)
e. Calvary do not tell visiting speakers what to preach. Each speaker prepares their own sermon and message independently.
f. Visiting Pas Peter Mortlock was never briefed about the situation in church during his visit. (take another bus).
Pastoral Response
The Bible clearly promotes wholesomeness and Christ-likeness and the manner it does so includes loving rebuke and correction when needed.
CT Comments
The church perspective is persuasive but we cannot fathom how asking members to “jump into the lake” or “take another bus (meaning to leave Calvary and join another church)” can promote spiritual growth in the church. If our pastors and SP think these caustic remarks are “loving rebuke”, then we better send them all back to Bible College. For our 2 pastors who have not gone through formal bible school training, it will be a good start for them.
Issue 2 : Gym Fees
Concern Raised
The concerns are that it was an abuse of privileges and breach of trust and that SP lied to the BOD about the club membership as a promise to him.
Opinions Formed
a. SP splurges on fitness membership using the church’s money without proper authorization.
b. SP lied that this has been promised to him.
c. None of the deacons can verify that an approval was given.
d. BOD pays RM15,000-00 but cannot pay more than RM250.00 for Adeline Koh.
Church Perspective (BOD’s Perspective)
a. SP did not lie about the approval.
b. On Nov 23, 1994, in lieu of a stipend increase, the BOD approved a sum of RM13,000-00 for him to spend as he chooses. The only deacons who were present at that time were Patrick Wong and Philip Tan.
c. No conditions were attached. He may even withdraw this in cash.
d. In May 2005, SP exercised this option when he joined the gym for a life time membership.
e. Actual amount paid for the membership was RM7,946.
CT Comments
If indeed the BOD minutes of Nov 23, 1994 are true and not tampered with, which we cannot verify, it is still strange that the current BOD would deem that approval as valid as only 2 deacons were present to approve the RM13,000 entitlement in lieu of stipend increase. Should not a stipend increase of the SP be approved by the whole BOD? Even if everything is in order, is it not inappropriate for SP to claim his entitlement 10-11 years later? How can we be sure that this amount has not been utilized already by him sometime between 1994 to 2005? Would anyone wait that long to claim his entitlement and it is amazing that SP can still remember this “promise” after a decade. Can we assume that BOD had wanted to give SP a RM1,000 increment in 1994? If so, what would his increment be like this year? How can we be sure that during the 10-11 years, the BOD did not reward SP with a bigger increment as compensation because he has not claimed the RM13,000 entitlement?
Issue 3 : Prayer Meeting (Issue not raised by Dr Lum in CT interview)
Concern Raised
Dr. Lum was totally excluded from leading prayer during Friday prayer meetings in the past 7 years.
Opinions Formed
SP shows favoritism and Dr. Lum is sidelined because of his constant opposing opinions.
Church Perspective (BOD’s Perspective)
a. Pas SK recalls that on at least 4 occasions, Dr. Lum has led in prayer at Friday prayer meetings.
b. There were also times when Dr. Lum turned down requests to pray due to his schedule.
c. Associate Pastors takes turn to plan the Friday prayer meetings and each decides whom to ask to lead in prayer. SP plays no part in the decision.
CT Comments
This matter was NOT brought out by Dr Lum in his interview and we are of the opinion that this is too petty to be highlighted by the BOD as a major issue. It is probably a strategy by the BOD to distract members from the real issues affecting and hurting our church. The BOD wants the members to believe that Dr. Lum has brought up petty issues because he was hurt personally. It is also quite remarkable that Pas SK can recall that Dr. Lum prayed 4 times in the 7 years.
Issue 4 : Church Membership
Concern Raised
The church is misleading the public into believing we are a 10,000 plus member strong church.
Opinions Formed
a. That CC does not have 10,200 members as per our church website and newspaper reporting.
b. The Church is boasting erroneously.
c. This should be brought up to the AG ethics committee.
Church Perspective (BOD’s Perspective)
a. Calvary website says Calvary and its outreaches minister to 10,200 people.
b. There has never been a claim that we have 10,200 members.
c. The BOD members do not recall SP denying that “we have less than 10,000 worshippers.”
d. The 10,200 is derived from:
3,612 - Calvary Church & satellites
2,878 - Local outreaches
3,680 - Overseas outreaches
10,170 - Total (rounded up to 10,200)
CT Comments
We are just dumbfounded that our BOD and SP are still insisting that Calvary and its outreaches minister to 10,200 people! Any of you who have visited our outreaches will know that in some outreaches, the attendance can be as low as 4-5 persons. How the BOD can come up with such ridiculous figures is beyond understanding! It is highly probable that they have included outreaches which have gone independent decades ago like Glad Tidings, and churches which Calvary has given some financial support in the past.
Financial support cannot equate to ministering when computing such numbers. If that is so, any church giving RM100 to Yoido Full Gospel Church can claim to be ministering to more than a million people.
The BOD should give a breakdown of the above numbers with a full name list of the local and overseas outreaches which are fully supported and “owned” or “overseen” by Calvary, and their weekly attendance numbers, together with the numbers from the main church and satellites.
In one of the briefings, a deacon maintained that they did not simply inflate the figures. To this statement, we would like to highlight that in an AG news article dated 19 Nov 1999, it is stated that our church has a weekly attendance of more than 4,000. (http://rss.ag.org/articles/detail.cfm?RSS_RSSContentID=1542&RSS_OriginatingChannelID=1007&RSS_OriginatingRSSFeedID=1034&RSS_Source=searchthe)
In a write-up on SP in Rev David Cho’s web journal in early 2000 or so, it is stated that our church has 7,000 members (http://www.davidcho.com/journal/jbody.asp?id=533).
In Nov/Dec 2002 Calvary News, it is stated that Calvary ministers to more than 7,000 people.
On our church website less than a year ago, it was stated that Calvary ministers to more than 8,400 people (CT has a printout of the webpage in our file showing this number).
The current church website states that Calvary ministers to more than 10,200 people
It is about time our BOD and SP stop misleading the public and the world Christian community and publish actual numbers of worshippers that we currently have, which should be in the range of 2,300-2,600 (and slowly dropping!).
Issue 5 : Sr. Pastor’s Children’s salary
Concern Raised
Nepotism
Opinions Formed
a. SP promotes and increases salary of his children by himself and HR deacon.
b. No other deacon knows about these evaluations.
c. There are no proper evaluations for SP’s family members.
d. The appraisal forms are not divulged to the other deacons.
Church Perspective (BOD’s Perspective)
a. All staff in church undergo the same annual appraisal process.
b. Annual appraisal consists of 3 steps:-
- Department Head conducts Staff Appraisal
- Review by Senior Pastor.
- SP & HR Deacon finalises the appraisal & ratings
c. BOD decides on each year's increment scale for each performance rating
d. SP & HR Deacon recommends their increments/promotions to the BOD for approval.
e. BOD agreed on 30 Nov 2002 that only certain deacons (presumably HR Deacon and Treasurer) will have access to stipend information of individual staff.
d. The SP’s children are not exempted from this process.
e. The appraisal of SP’s children are discussed by HR Deacon with SP.
Auditors’ Findings
1. Earlier practice – all salaries were made known to the BOD.
2. On 30 November 2002, the BOD decided that they be shown summary of increment percentages and appraisal review results and only the HR Deacon & Treasurer know salaries of all staff.
3. Board set the increment ranges for the different levels.
4. Present HR Deacon has reverted to previous practice of providing details to the Board.
5. Now, HR Deacon reviews and validates the performance appraisals and ratings, particularly for family members.
CT Comments
The above explanation does not dismiss the fact that since SP’s children are department heads, SP himself does the appraisal. After that, he discusses and finalises the appraisal with the HR Deacon and presumably, both of them recommend their increments and/or promotions to the BOD for approval as should be the procedure. But the BOD only sees the summary of increment percentages and not the actual increment amount or salary. Only the HR Deacon and Treasurer knows the salaries of all staff.
The conflict of interest in the appraisal and increment/promotion process in respect of SP's children cannot be denied. The BOD's explanation confirms exactly the truth of what Dr Lum has said.
Part 2.
Issue 6 : Adeline Koh
Concerns Raised
a) Whilst serving as our outreach pastor, she only received RM250 per month.
b) She was forced to live in a store room because of this.
c) Church is flouting labor laws.
d) Insinuation that whoever determined her salary is unkind.
Church Perspective (BOD’s Perspective)
a) Adeline was not our outreach pastor at the material time. Neither was she employed by the church.
b) She was a full time BCM student – fully sponsored by Missions for 1 year.
c) She participates in “weekend ministries” as part of her practicals – meaning she serves during weekends only at Bandar Baru Ampang.
d) Sponsored BCM students given an honorarium to assist with their meals and travel.
e) She was given RM250 per month and was given the use of a church van.
f) Adeline graduated in December 2008 (after Dr Lum’s letter).
g) She finished her course in July. Pending graduation she continued with weekend ministries.
h) Her honorarium continued despite the fact she was no longer a student.
i) She stayed at the outreach without obtaining prior clearance from Missions.
j) When this was known and out of concern for her safety, she was advised to find alternative accommodation.
k) However, she requested that she be permitted to stay until she could come up with a suitable alternative.
l) She applied for and was accepted as a full time Missions outreach worker commencing 15 February 2009.
CT Comments
The clarifications by the Church raises more questions. Are our BOD and pastors saying that because Adeline was a full time BCM student and not an outreach pastor and was not employed by our church at the material time, it is justified to take advantage of her? Bear in mind, she was responsible for the outreach and ministers there. It is unbelievable that our BOD and pastors can proudly say that after she finished her course and was no longer a student, her RM250 honorarium continued. What planet are they living on? So long as Adeline continues to serve as the outreach pastor, whether official recognized or not, she should be paid. And with only RM250 allowance per month, it is not surprising that she was forced to be a “squatter” in the store room.
The presenter showed photographs of the room where Adeline stayed and said that it was not a store room (but it was used as a store!). From the layout of the room, location of the bed and calculation of the floor tiles, the room size is about 13 feet by 7 feet. The end portion of the room, behind a curtain was used as a store. Because the room is elongated and with the window ledge indenting inwards, there was no space for a small wardrobe or desk, just enough for a single bed and walking room.
Issue 7 : Airfare for Azalea & Shawn Wong
Concerns Raised
a) Church funds utilized for private use.
b) Funds were used to benefit those in positions of influence i.e. SP and a sitting deacon.
c) An example of how SP abused his power.
d) Airfares were sourced from Missions Funds, it therefore was not used for Missions purposes.
e) Only SP knew of this practice. It was kept secret from all other staff.
f) Decision makers made decisions in their own favour.
Church Perspective (BOD’s Perspective)
a) Missions has a budget for “personnel”.
- Full time church staff can be allowed educational related assistance for themselves or their children.
- Intended as an encouragement to full-time staff, in view of their faithfulness in ministry.
b) This one-time financial assistance is by way of scholarships and/or travel sponsorship.
c) Azalea (Pas Chris Lee’s daughter) and Shawn (Pas Shereen Wong’s son) both children of full time pastoral staff were provided assistance.
d) Others have similarly received such encouragement. For e.g. Roy Selvaratnam (Lydia Selvaratnam’s son) and Valerie Ong (Pas Timothy’s daughter).
e) Decision was entirely a Missions initiative. BOD was not involved in the decision.
f) For the case of Azalea, SP informed BOD since Azalea is his grand daughter.
CT Comments
It is true that the Missions/Faith Promise Budget has an allocation categorized as “Personnel” but we are confident that all members had believed that this was to cover salaries of outreach pastors and to support missionaries. Who would have thought that our SP and Missions Director could be so sly to hide these frivolous claims under this category? These expenses obviously has nothing to do with missions and clearly an abuse of position and power by SP and the Missions Director. It was not clarified if Pas Shereen was already employed as an Assistant Pastor at the time when her son was given this sponsorship but we know for sure her husband is our deacon Patrick Wong. As to Lydia Selvaratnam, as far as we know, she worked for a short while as the church receptionist.
Pas Steven clarified that the sponsorships are not a staff benefit and not provided in the Staff Handbook and are given on case to case basis. Since there were no proper approved guidelines and the “benefits” were only given to SP, an Associate Pastor, an Assistant Pastor and a receptionist, it would appear these payments and sponsorship were arbitrary decisions by SP and the Missions Director. Our view is that if the above persons cannot afford to send their children overseas for studies, then they should send them to local universities, just like what 90% of our congregation do. It is unethical and morally wrong to use money from Missions Fund, which is contributed by the members for the purpose of saving souls, to send pastors' and staff's children overseas.
Not surprisingly and very conveniently, the BOD and pastors left out the findings of the auditors that SP’s children’s education fees, books and airfares to the US, were also partially paid by the church.
Issue 8 : BOD Church-Wide Announcements (Issue not raised by Dr Lum in CT interview)
Concerns Raised
a) That BOD was forced to make a public announcement by SP.
b) That the findings were falsely stated because the forensic accountant and independent lawyer had not completed their assignments at that time.
c) Announcement was divisive.
d) Announcement ought not to have been made.
e) Allegations were not malicious.
Church Perspective (BOD’s Perspective)
a) The BOD has never been forced into any decisions by the SP. The BOD unanimously refutes any allegations that they were coerced into making the announcement.
b) In view of all the allegations circulating at that time, the BOD had to come up with an interim position stating the status of the investigations thus far and promising a full report at the appropriate time.
c) The specific words used by the BOD was “thus far” meaning that fact-finding into other issues were still ongoing.
d) The BOD agrees, in hindsight, that the announcement could have been phrased better.
e) The fact remains that the forensic accountant and independent lawyer have since found no wrongdoing whatsoever. This shows the allegations were unfounded.
CT Comments
This issue was not raised by Dr Lum in the CT interview because he felt it was too petty to harp on this matter. For reasons best known to the BOD, they have included this in their presentation.
The BOD may be adamant that the findings of the forensic accountant and lawyer proved that the allegations were unfounded but the fact remains that the forensic accountant was asked to “bark at the wrong tree”. They were asked to look into the accounts of CIM but no one made any issue about the CIM accounts. The issue was on the inappropriate and illegal transfer of funds from the Missions Fund to CIM which has been proven to have taken place. The lawyer, KK Wong had clearly stated that his findings was based purely on the documents given to him by the church. Was he given the true and correct and all related documents? We guess the members will never know.
Issue 9 : USD10,000 - Gift to Dr. Guynes
Concerns Raised
a) This is not an issue of “quantum but about of processes”.
b) Amount decided upon unilaterally by SP. Amount given by SP to Dr. Guynes from church funds without approval or discussion with deacons.
c) “after the event” request put to the BOD by SP that the gift be ratified by the BOD.
d) This amount is large. USD10,000, since his personal expenses were also covered. Eg airfare and accommodation.
e) The payment was an inducement to Guynes for chairing the meeting.
f) It was a waste of church funds as the EGM was unnecessary.
g) Ancillary issue: When asked by Dr. Lum on 13 August 2008 (2 days before EGM) as to who was going to chair the EGM. SP said “not confirmed”. SP was alleged to have lied.
h) Lee Tuck Heng’s advice that CIM & EM accounts be released to the members prior to the EGM was ignored.
Church Perspective (BOD’s Perspective)
The actual process & chronology:
1) The EGM was convened to address issues of concern. An independent chairman was required as it was inappropriate for SP to chair the meeting.
2) As at 13 Aug 2008, it was still “not confirmed” as to who would chair the EGM. There were 2 possibilities, Rev Ong Sek Liang (AG General Superintendent) and Dr. Guynes.
3) Dr Guynes (Honorary Pastor) reached KL on 14 Aug 2008. Met with a working team of deacons on to find out what was expected of the chair at the coming EGM.
4) Only after being fully appraised of his role, did he accept and confirm that he would chair the EGM. This was 14 Aug 2008.
5) After he had left that meeting, that SP suggested that a love gift be given to him. The deacons present were in agreement as the love gift would help to defray his airfare and nursing care for Sis. Guynes.
6) This suggestion was then ratified at the immediate next full Board meeting on 20 September 2008, following the EGM.
7) Dr. Guynes paid for his own airfare.
8) Bro Tuck Heng had in fact suggested non-consolidation of the accounts (presented as stand-alone) aids clarity and understanding. He did not give any advice to the effect that CIM accounts should be released.
CT Comments
It is obvious that Dr Guynes had been asked to fly here from USA way before 13 August. Otherwise, it will not be possible for him to be here to meet the deacons on 14 August as the flight from USA takes between 15 to 24 hours depending on the connections. It is truly inconceivable that he would leave his sick wife alone in USA, take the long flight here, not certain if he needs to chair the EGM at all and knowing very well that he had to take an immediate flight back home to attend to his wife who was very ill at the time. On top of the uncertainty, he had to fork out a few thousand USD to fly here for a chit chat, while his wife would need lots of money for medical expenses. SP and the BOD must take Calvarites for fools to believe that it was not pre-planned for Dr Guynes to chair the EGM.
That aside, we cannot understand why Rev Ong Sek Liang was not chosen to chair the EGM. He would have done it for free.
Finally, what has Bro Lee Tuck Heng’s advice on CIM and Extended Ministries got to do with this issue of love gift to Dr Guynes? We certainly have a confused bunch of deacons and pastors. Anyway, while on this note, the members are aware that Bro Tuck Heng did not give any advice on CIM accounts because at the last AGM, the issue raised was on the Extended Ministries accounts. By the way, the Treasurer promised to release the Extended Ministries' accounts to the members by mid 2008 and today, we are all still waiting.
Issue 10 : Phil Stevenson
Concerns Raised
a) We openly misled him that he money collected was for him personally.
b) Amount collected was never given to Phil.
c) Youth Pastor at that time deceived the donors.
Church Perspective (BOD’s Perspective)
a) All youth camps are funded by a Calvary Youth budget.
b) Before the camp, Youth Pastor’s requested Missions to sponsor Phil’s travel expenses. The understanding was that in return for full sponsorship, any amounts collected in offerings will be handed over to Missions.
c) The term “love offering” was not used when the offering was collected.
d) Phil was traveling during a peak period, so his air fare was more expensive than expected and much more than the budgeted amount.
e) Phil’s meals and accommodation were fully covered.
f) Only RM1,858-93 was collected.
g) It was given over to Missions. Missions paid him the full travel fare of RM4,242-00 even though he also ministered at another church.
CT Comments
The above explanation by the BOD and pastors are irrelevant and side-stepping the real issue. The issue here is that the offering collected was not given to Pas Phil.
Pas Steven, at the recent EGM, also clarified that he did not use the word “love offering” when the offering was collected. However, the youth and even Pas Phil himself got the impression that the offering will be given to him. Either Pas Steven is right OR everyone else present at the camp is wrong. We will leave it to the members to decide.
Issue 11 : Non Declaration of Gifts
Concerns Raised
a) SP receives monetary gifts whilst on ministry which gifts are not declared to the Board.
b) Inconsistent application of the rule when SP is compared to all other pastors.
c) SP not accountable to the Board.
d) SP concealed and kept for himself the monies gifted to the church through him.
Church Perspective (BOD’s Perspective)
a) There is an existing process for recording gifts received.
b) All pastors, including SP adheres to the process.
c) Auditors have confirmed that all gifts received by the pastors including SP are recorded.
d) In SP’s case, if whilst on overseas assignments monies are received, these amounts are to set-off against expenses incurred.
CT Comments
The auditors DID NOT say that all gifts received by SP are recorded and that SP adheres to the process for recording gifts. We rewound and listened to the EGM recording several times to confirm this. The above statements at the briefings were outright lies by the BOD.
There were 5 occasions where SP received the reimbursement of airfares from other churches and these were returned to CIM to offset the airfares paid in advance. There were no declaration of love gifts received by SP. This confirms what Dr Lum has said.
(Part 3 is in the next posting.)
108 comments:
Well done Calvary Today.
You guys are really on top of everything.
Yours news and info are faster than CNN.
Keep it.
Yah, they are now having ceramahs trying to win votes on June 19. We should call our church as the Calvary Secret Political Party.
Remove SP now.
Too much talk.
No Ending story.
I meant..KEEP IT UP.
Thanks
The heat is building up.
There is going to be a huge time bomb explosion any time soon!
How can we respect CC SP, APs and BOD anymore? They are stuck in the miry clay and still prefer to huddle together and say there is nothing wrong in CC.
Any normal person can tell that they are sorely blinded and under a spell.
May the spell of lying, deception and fear of man be broken by the mighty power of the Holy Spirit and In Jesus' Mighty Name.
Amen.
Hi Calvarites,
Last EGM, many many members pleaded with SP to allow Dr Lum to attend the meeting and explain his issues contained in his resignation letter and CT blog. But, SP refused.
In turn, SP still conducts ceramahs with leaders and members to explain these issues WITHOUT Dr Lum. It can go on for about 2 weeks involving many manhours lost. But to allow Dr Lum to come in for EGM for a few hours, not possible! You discern yourself about the character and conduct of our leader.
Questions to be asked:
1. Is SP using the biblical approach to resolve church conflict?
2. Has SP again wronged Dr Lum by doing so?
3. Is Prince still fit to be a Pastor?
4. Is there a shepherd-heart in Prince?
5. Bro James Lim was one of the speakers. Who is he to handle Dr Lum's issues? Why SP allowed him to do so?
6. Is SP trying to distract the whole issues about himself and "his deeds" by making Dr Lum a scapegoat for all the church problems happening now?
7. Will our members be again blinded or realise the problems caused by SP himself?
CT COMMENTS - None of our pastors would dare to act on their own accord. SP's dictatorial leadership style is well known among the members and staff alike.
Well said CT. I fully agreed without a shadow of doubt. U have my full support.
Who is Bro James Lim? I have not heard of him before. I did not get him as the speaker in my room.
After the meeting, I can see now many members will want to get into SP's good books. You can get a job for your retired wife in church office and then get a scholarship or an air ticket for your children to study overseas. I am furious at how some people don't have so big head want to wear so big hat. If you cannot afford to send you kid to study overseas, do like us, put them in local university.
How come Roy selvaratnam also got benefit like SP's granddaughter and also P. Timothy's daughter. What a shame.
I hope the church is not breaking up families too. There was an earlier comment in the blog that one member was invited to attend the 'ceramah' but not the spouse.
I just heard today that another member received a call from an AP to attend too but did not mention about asking the spouse to attend. They did however mentioned that it was for members but I am not sure if it was for all members, irrespective of whether you are invited or not.
More than two years ago, our family went to an Asian country for a holiday. We joined a tour. In the tour group, we met a nice retired couple who was well educated and spoke very good English. When we told them that we were from Calvary Church, they were rather upset and told us that our church breaks up families. I didnt know what they meant at that time but now maybe I do understand.
roy selvaratnam got it via his mother who was a church staff..
i m a nobody in this church.
i m just curious as to why dr lum reported 15,000 and its only 13000 to start with and of that 13000 only 7000 plus has been used..
i hope that someone would be kind enuf to enlighten me as i m very confused..
To Anonymous 6.30pm.
Sorry if I burst your bubble regarding our SP. Looks like SP must have told the 2005 deacons that RM15k was promised to him in lieu of salary increase in 1994. So my guess is, his calculation RM1k per month increment for 12 mths plus 3 mths bonus = RM15K for the year. So he ask for RM15k in 2005. Please remember that this promise was given to him in 1994, and only 2 current deacons were there in 1994, and most likely cannot remember also.
Only when questioned by Dr Lum that the deacons now check the 1994 minutes and note that it is RM13k only promised to him not RM15k. So they announce to us the correct figure now. BTW the sum 15 or 13 is not important - only 2k difference. The issue is who can verify now that this sum was not taken by him already.
RM7k plus is the actual membership fees so he must have claimed reimbursement according to the bill by Jackie Chan club. In the meeting I was in, we were told that he can still claim the balance of the unclaim sum in cash anytime he wants. No questions can be asked by anyone. So you see, SP will not let go of even 5 sen due to him and he must be looking out for a golf membership to join becoz that's what a deacon told us. SP can use the balance sum to join a golf club if he wants to.
So at the end, all of us also confused like you becoz our SP & BOD, one day say one thing, just to suit themself at that time. I tell you when CT finish the 3 parts, you are all going to be 100 times more confused.
i think some ppl do not seem to get the point..it is not the quantity that matters, whether it is RM13k or RM15k or RM17k etc. It is the outright misuse of his authority/position to demand for such earthly things, using church offerings to go to gym (!!) and keeping it all so untransparent.
We must understand that no matter what Dr Lum or Concerned members bring up as matters of grave concern to CC members, PG, APs and BOD can justify and turn such matters around to suit their own agenda and purposes.
They are experts at twisting and turning... so that is why many members are confused. Everything is relative and they do not live by the truth.
We are reminded by the Lord that the world is under the rule of the prince of darkness. What has happened to CC leadership? Are they submitting themselves to our Chief Shepherd or are they submitting to their own fleshly ways by allowing pride, deception, injustice and rule of brute force to be their gods?
They may profess to be Christian leaders and godly people and knowing the Word so well, but their lives do not reflect the character of Jesus. Their conduct and behaviour are not consistent with their faith and profession.
Where is God's anointing and presence in PG, APs and BOD? Where is the fear of GOD?
We do not see the peace and serenity in PG, APs and BOD at all... instead we see arrogance, defiance, anger and vengeance in them. Even their faces are twisted and distorted with anger.. like "bittergourd faces"!
May 11, 2009
Living Within Your Income
by Rick Warren
"Those who love money will never have enough. How meaningless to think that wealth brings true happiness! The more you have, the more people come to help you spend it. So what good is wealth—except perhaps to watch it slip through your fingers!" (Ecclesiastes 5:10-11 NLT)
When you spend more than you earn, you end up in tremendous stress. The Bible says, "Stupid people spend their money as fast as they get it" (Proverbs 21:20 TEV).
What motivates us to live beyond our means? Why do we spend ourselves into debt? Why are we rarely satisfied with what we have?
There are three myths that drive us into debt:
MYTH: Having more things will make me happier.
FACT: "Those who love money will never have enough. How meaningless to think that wealth brings true happiness!...So what good is wealth—except perhaps to watch it slip through your fingers!" (Ecclesiastes 5:10-11 NLT)
MYTH: Having more things will make me more important.
FACT: "Watch out and guard yourselves from every kind of greed; because your true life is not made up of the things you own, no matter how rich you may be" (Luke 12:15 TEV).
MYTH: Having more things will make me more secure.
FACT: "The Lord is like a strong tower, where the righteous can go and be safe. Rich people, however, imagine that their wealth protects them like high, strong walls around a city" (Proverbs 18:10-11 TEV).
When we buy into these myths, we always overspend. So, here's how to enjoy life more on less:
• Find happiness in helping others. Jesus said, "There is more happiness in giving than in receiving" (Acts 20:35 TEV). Just look around you and you'll see this is true. The happiest people are those who help the most, not those who have the most. Misers are always miserable.
• Find self-worth by getting to know God. God says, "...you are precious to me..." (Isaiah 43:4 TEV). You matter to God. He made you for a purpose. Genuine self-esteem comes from establishing a relationship with God and becoming all he meant for you to be.
• Find security in trusting God, not a bank balance. The Bible says, "Keep your lives free from the love of money, and be satisfied with what you have. For God has said, 'I will never leave you; I will never abandon you'" (Hebrews 13:5 TEV). Real security must be found in something that can never be taken from you. While there are many ways to lose your possessions, Jesus said God will take care of you if you trust Him.
It's good to look at some of our leaders' face. Twisters at work is observant.
Look at PG when he preaches.
Look at PG2 when he defends SP.
Look at PO when he tries to defend SP and CC.
Look at TO when he exerts his power.
Look at BOD PW when he walks by you.
Look at BOD PT when he looks at you.
Look at BOD Han when he is asked about Semenyih memorial park.
For others, you see for yourself. Christlikeness is rare today. At times, sitting under their ministries too long, we will be no difference. Success begets success. Failure begets failure. UnChristlikeness begets unChristlikeness. So, be careful and be watchful!
WHY WAS AGM SCHEDULED for 03 APRIL 09 DIDN't TAKE PLACE?
When *03 April 09 came and passed, many wondered whatever happened to CC AGM? (* as published in the church Diary)--NO announcement of its postponement was made, and the Congregation was left guessing in the dark!
Now, The REASON is OUT:
SP & BOD have schemed! how outrageous-- they delayed the AGM to use this time (two months) to conduct their "Ceramahs" for their own ulterior motive!
What dishonourable behaviour-- What desperation to save their own neck--but it will be futile, darkness can never block the LIGHT.
Talk & Talk & Blog after Blog
Just remove SP, APs & BOD.
Why so indecisive ?
Go to court & get the decision like
the the MB of Perak.
The sad thing is that Pastors and BOD know all about and even pride themselves in preaching on the Biblical principles about the dangers of the love of money,the lust of the eyes and the pride of life. Yet they themselves fall into the trap of the prince of darkness!
Why: There is somewhere along the journey Pastors and BOD have failed but they refused to acknowledge it. Instead they persist in straying and even justifying the wrongs. The more this is done the deeper they fall into the trap.
What next: Unless they humble themselves and confess and repent it will be a downhill slide. What is happening is obvious to all.
May they heed the still small voice in their hearts and humble themselves and repent rather than continue to sin and drag many down with them. Don't wait longer as the damage is multiplying manifold.
God have mercy on Your children...
How sad.
I found out that the real reason why the church is having small group meetings now for 'members' is to determined how many voting members are for SP.
They have the intention of downgrading any voting members to associate members before the voting members list is out for the coming AGM. So it is like sieving through the membership and casting out the so called 'church outlaws' as perceived by them.
Sounds very political. Trying to sieve out all those who dont have the same opinion as them.
So dear voting members, be careful. You are actually meeting up with wolves in sheep skin if you do go for the meeting. They have an ulterior motive. Why meet in small groups? Think about it.
Dont be con by them or be provoked by them in the meetings.
If you are not comfortable in attending the meetings, dont go. If you do go, dont say anything or ask any questions. They are trying to find out where you stand. If you are not standing on their side, then be prepared to attend the coming AGM as an ASSOCIATE MEMBER.
How sly and shrewd these schemers.
Have to give them a prize for the World AG Best Schemer 2009.
Agree with Another Jig-Saw Piece discovered.
They have another scheme lined up -another round of brain-washing at the coming Church Camp fr 1st TO 4th June. All you guys who are going for the Church Camp better pray hard for God's wisdom in discerning what is from God and what is from the man and his wife.
Be careful not to reveal to any leader about your position or stand in TTG matters. Best thing is don't talk about AGM and TTG matters to any leaders even if they ask you. Just go to the Camp and pray and seek God for wisdom.
Hello to SP Secret Ministry,
It is not too late to know about the unhealthy and un-biblical practices of Calvary Church. It is not just a question of control and dictatorial power. It is now clearly demonstrating for all to witness its true colour in holding selected and small groups "brainwashing" or KGB-style meetings just before an annual re-election and election of deacons and an important church general meeting. Many desire and ask for transparency and openness and the leadership has responded with closeness and selective dialogue sessions to pan out more half-truth and more bedtime stories. Do such activities promote or harm spiritual harmony goodwill and healing? Where a leadership has a good explantion, please put that down and disseminate to all via the Calvary Newsletter as a supplementary edition. All the promises for "Way Forward" and better communication are just as hollow and insincere as weekly sermons and weak instructions.
There's another example I wish to share with bloggers. The Life Group leaders are routinely issued specific instructions to record and submit notes of all life-group meetings especially matters with regards to members' testimonies. The written notes are submitted to the pastor in charge.
Hence, our church knows everything about its congregation. As more and more not so proper church's practices unfold, I am beginning to wonder and seek assurance as to how the congregation can depend on the leadership's honesty and sincerity in avoiding the temptation to use personal information against any particular voting member for this forthcoming AGM....
When CC needs to make references to the notes and records, any congregation member can be read like an open book.
Pause and give a thought about this way of collecting information which can be very detrimental to members if any person in the leadership chooses to make use of the personal lives of members in an improper manner.
I suggest that we do away with keeping notes and records of LG meetings.
BEYOND ANY SHADOW OF DOUBT.
The 'conversion' of PG's annaul Stipend increase in 1994 to CA$H proved beyond any shadow of doubt:
1.TOO FAT A SALARY
His stipend ( Salary) must be so HIGH that he could afford not to want it --but for good reason, perhaps-to avoid paying more income tax.
2.PG is MATERIALISTIC.
IF one truly has a heart for God's work... could
one even think of such request for CONVERSION
to $$$ for material pursuit, in the first instance ?
Why wouldn't he thought of converting it to an
offering to CCC, which till tis day, preach day &
night for everyone "keep nothing but give 'ALL you
have," etc.
OR
give this sum to some orphanage Homes...?
YET, 15 years later he could remember so WELL and ask to CASH out what "the BOD has promised"!
This ACT revealed the real HEART of the inside real PG.
3. BOD HYPNOTISED or SOLD OUT?
It's hard to conceive in any right thinking person, seating as BOD of a church with great responsibility,would approved of such audacious request from a Sr.pastor at that!
Notwithstanding, what PG & present BOD trying to explain their way out, the process and approval of conversion to CASH is yet another case of Abuse of power where NO rules apply to them.
The setting of a TRUTH COMMISSION is no longer an option.
King of Kings is Jesus. Jesus is of the Kingdom.
Prince of the world is Satan. Satan is of the world.
I sincerely hope that God will deliver PG, PG-Jr and PG-III (3 generations) from the worldly desire and focus since the name, "Prince", likely carries worldly pride and values. "King" and "Prince" in the world are more and more becoming irrelevant. In fact, in most countries, they are extinct. Their fall was due to pride. God didn't like the idea of Isrealites wanting a King. Look at history of the kings in the OT.
I had pointed out on the other posting on 9th May that SP is a LIAR.
Now, after reading Joseph Gerard's comments of his personal experience of getting 3 different answers simultaneously from a wannabe BOD, a current BOD & an AP (who will take a bullet for SP) for his single question, I thought that I needed to post my comment below in this posting as well.
My observation & JG's confirm that this is a case of "Leadership by Example". In this case, the Leader lies so sooner or later, the followers will lie also.
Heard that HJK was caught lying at an EGM some years back when he said that "to say that we were aware that the CCC construction costs had escalated some 6 months ago is not exactly true, what we did when we submitted the tax exemption application then was that we just UP the figure".
As Christians, can we "UP the figure" when we submit such application? Is that NOT tantamount to lying? What example are PG, BOD & APs showing to Calvarites & non-believers?
Bird's Eye View said...
Huge Big Mess commented that "It is becoming very apparent that the SP, APs and BOD are perpetual liars!"
I have to agree 100% with him/her.
At the Easter Sunday Service, I had a bird's eye view of the whole stadium. I saw the ushers, who came back after sending the 1st offering to the counting room, handing over the emptied offering bags to other ushers & I told myself that they would take a 2nd offering later.
I was shocked that SP (after preaching) stated that "we had not planned for a 2nd offering but I was moved by the Spirit (during my preaching) to take a 2nd offering for CCC".
Now that's a BLATANT LIAR & he calls himself a senior pastor. Shame on you, SP; what example are you showing to one & all - that pastors can lie?
Over the past month, I spoke to some Calvarites & I learnt that not only were the ushers informed that morning that there would be a 2nd offering but ER had also informed the counting team of the 2nd offering. Yet, SP can tell a lie without batting an eyelid. Looks like he is a pathological liar.
Why is SP still lying & using God's Name in vain? Will God bless the works of a liar, especially one who uses His Name in vain?
Then SP "apologises" to the whole congregation that "if I had ...."; I would think that the "apology" is also a lie.
Watch out SP - liar, liar; your pants will be on fire.
May 9, 2009 9:38 PM
I was there for one of the briefings and this is my thoughts on the matter:
o I think there is nothing wrong or sinister of the intention to provide "the other side of the story". I take this in good faith.
o On the issue of the invitation to ask questions so that matters can be clarified, here again I welcome this. And yes, I did ask quite a lot of questions/sought clarification on many areas and yet I don't feel I will be penalised or downgraded from a Voting to an Associate Member. God forbid it that this should happen! If ever this comes to past, the "TTG" will have in its rank another convert!
o As to the issues per se - some of them were already clarified and explained during the EGM via the Auditors' findings and for these and perhaps a few other matters, I am satisfied with the explanation provided by the church leaders.
o However there are other issues where the lack of information and/or detailed facts & figures did not allow me to come to an informed decision as to the "truth" of the matter. Mere statements of the stand of the church leaders is inadequate for some of the critical issues. At best I knew what the church leaders' stand/opinion was but because of the lack of information, details, facts & figures, any conclusion either way would be careless. For these, if I have the opportunity, I intend to seek further clarification, information, details, facts & figures from the church leaders.
o Perhaps I would also personally be most curious to hear from Dr Lum himself of his intention and statements. At the moment, it appears true that many of his statements contained factual inaccuracies and taken as a whole would not paint a correct picture of the situation/SP. But words/statements have a context - this is something which I do not have presently although like I mentioned, his statements do carry an inaccurate slant.
o However, what is disappointing with the briefings is that it offers no "so what do we do going forward?". Obviously the problems and issues which we currently faced have arisen because of the existing structures we embrace and the way we have (unfavourably) conducted ourselves - perhaps more business and organisational-liked in approach rather than emphasising the Body of Christ which is living. Perhaps as the church grew, more management tools and structures were employed for better organisation and efficiency and we somehow developed into what we are today. Also, there appears to be a visible lack of the plurality of church leadership. What are we going to do about these weaknesses? What changes are we going to initiate? How are we going to behave going forward? These must be addressed so that these problems and issues will not arise in the future. The past is the past but without what we need and are going to do for the future, there remains a vacuum within the church.
Overall then, I feel that these briefings are useful for the purpose of moving forward but they in themselves are unfortunately woefully inadequate especially to bring about reconciliation, healing and to maintain the oneness of the Body.
I look forward therefore for a committed action plan by the church leaders. Until this is shared and embraced by everyone, we will continue to function as "us" and "them". Remember that any action which do not promote unity and oneness, whether they come from the "TTG" or the church leaders is obviously not the will or desire of our Lord Jesus Christ. Let's really make Jesus as the Head of the Body! Amen!
Dear Joseph Gerard, do you know that when a person tells the truth, no matter how many times the person is asked, he will always tell the same thing. Ask any lawyer who goes to court.
Its only when you are not telling the truth that you get a different answer each time you ask the same question again, whether it is to the same person or another person.
So from the three different answers given, you know now that they are not telling the truth or they are just twisting the truth.
Yes, I am very interested and I shall call you for a teh tarik session very soon.
Dear Joseph Gerard, it confirms that our church secretary is nobody in the Board of Deacons but just a yes-woman. The fact that even Raymond can overule her shows that he is a powerful person, just one rank below SP probably.
She must have recognized that he is SP's shadow.
If she cant even stand on her own two feet in front of Raymond, what hope has she got when she is in front of SP.
Need I say more?
I'm a voting member but till now, no one has called me to attend any meetings. so much for raymond yong's reply that all voting members are asked to attend this week. hey, even the associate members get to attend it this week and I don't!
Dear Bro Joseph,
How funny, our group also had deacon Han and it was he who told us that SP can use the money to join a golf club. So sorry I cannot remember much but here and there what was said. After sitting and listening for almost 3 hours my head also "pening". 4 of them talk and I one pair of ears listen.
My group no one ask that question, what will happen to the balance money. He told us to prove a point. To me at that time was he was trying to prepare us incase someone finds out SP use the balance money someelse already. That's why he said, SP can take cash also if he wants.
That's the problem, got so many groups, so many days, so many speakers and so many stories, now come out all rojak.
COME OUT IN THE OPEN
There are 1001 items.. from the "secretive Stipends & Packaged Benefits of PG & Family to the CIM saga to the Missions 'Scholarship Fund' for the privileged -PG & Cronies , to Misleading information of church attendance to Missions' dissolve CARE, to Closure of CC Kindergarten to Failed Calvary Land to 'cheating' vote of approval of CCC rm150Million budget to manipulation of Constitution .. etc etc. unravelled
Who can stomach all these any longer???
How bankrupt of Integrity, that PG required BOD & ASS pAstors to declare support of his leadership!!!
A first in the History of AOG.
JUST LEAVE, please!
Actually, concerned members just want our Church back.. PG & his family can take everything they have taken and leave to enjoy themselves the rest of their lives!--
Am sure members will not bring them to the Book, iF they will just leave and not bring CC to complete ruin.
Hello all Calvarites,
Immediately you deny/refuse an aggrieved person the right to be heard in a properly organised open forum, the CC leadership has blatantly ignored a fundamental and basic principle of justice honesty embedded in the Bible.
Why? Are the sum total of Senior Pastors, senior associate pastors and Board of Deacons fearful of the testimonies (or allegations) of one person? As members, we perceive a clear conflict of interests in display as SP and several pastors have two and more pay-checks to protect. Find out for yourselves if you still unaware of the unabashed culture for money and position.
The leadership is simply abusing its power by presenting versions and versions of defences to Dr. Lum's allegations (mind you behind Dr. Lum's). It has also turned the church compound for the past several nights a mirror image of the farcical late night shows presented by pastors, deacons and someone described "wannabe" deacons.
It is a fact that members, regular worshippers and other with needs are hurting and crying out for spiritual help. Can we expect the curtain-fall on this badly choreographed circus performance now.
The truth never changes and it needs no defenders.. it is only lies that need to be guarded.
With all these series of meetings and bunch of presenters and perusaders for SP, APs and BOD at work.... the stories and line of reasoning become all jumbled up and conflict each other!
The soup is all mixed with various ingredients and tastes awful... let see how all these cooks are going to come out with the final done dish!
They are trying to win the hearts and minds of the members but instead it is counter effective... the presenters and persuaders are just as confused as the hearers!
We pray that God will intervene and bring about a swift resolution of the matter. May God's cleansing fire descend upon His church and CC shall be cleansed and made fit to be used by Him again for His work.
Let truth, honesty, righteousness and justice prevail in CC.
Dr Lum.
Take your wrongful dismissal and termination of membership to court.
Dont wait.
If SP cant get the truth in there.
Get a court order to get your truth in there.
Dont keep all the members waiting.
Your silence indicate defeat by your adversary.
First, they held an inquiry on Saturday 28th Feb 09 to "trial" Dr Lum with a chairman whose impartiality is in question as he is a good buddy of PG, plus his Christian conduct is also in question as he is seen habitually buying 3D, 4D, etc.
When Dr Lum turned up with his witnesses for the inquiry, they were treated like "criminals" & locked in DP. Then the inquiry panel couldn't agree on parameters to safeguard the integrity of the "court proceedings". Thus Dr Lum who refused to submit himself to an ungodly "trial" or be a part of it, chose to go home, yet the inquiry panel continue with the "KANGAROO" court which obviously nailed Dr Lum.
The BOD then sacked Dr Lum & when Calvarites requested at the 4th Apr 09 EGM for Dr Lum to be admitted to answer the charges, PG chose NOT to let Dr Lum in; instead PG was so unChristian that he let Dr Lum sit for 5 hours outside the sanctuary with 2 "guards" watching over Dr Lum.
Now PG & BOD (abetted by APs & wannabe BOD) are holding "KANGAROO" courts nightly to trial Dr Lum over & over again.
Hey ! You guys are charging the "whistle blower" whislt the culprit (PG) is laughing all the way to the bank.
Tsk ! Tsk ! God will NOT be mocked. God will have the last laugh.
To "Also confused but believe Dr. Lum".
Thank you bro/sis for your prompt reply.
Initially, I thought you could have heard it from another Pastor, Deacon or presenter. Therefore, for the benefit of the doubt, there may be some miscommunication. But, after hearing from you that it was Deacon Han himself who have said it... Hmmm... then it can't be miscommunication.
Now, I'm speechless. I'm just thinking aloud; after 10 years from today, should PG (immaterial whether he's still the SP of CC or not) requests for the balance of monies (RM5054), what happens then? Mind boggling, right.
One thing for sure, I'll speak to Bro Han on his "2 different explanations" when I meet him. I sincerely hope I would not receive a "3rd different explanation."
I agree with "Truth doesn't change." If someone is speaking the truth, no matter how many times he/she says it, it would still be the truth. On the other hand, if it is not the truth, then he/she would have to find different "ways" or "stories" to put across his/her lies. And many a times, he/she will contradict himself/herself. I believe all of us have witnessed this before many times, right? Now, before anyone jump into conclusion, my statement above is a general statement and I'm not insinuating anybody. Like the Malay proverbs says, "Siapa yang makan cili, dialah yang rasa pedas."
Bro/Sis "Truth doesn't change", I would be more than happy to have teh tarik with you. If you are a sister, then I would bring my wife along.
God bless.
Yes, I agree with "Go to Court".
Dr Lum,
go to the court of law.
To : Go to Court & Anonymous.
On the contrary, PG should take TTG to Court , since so much have been exposed of his misdeeds.
Surely, this he would have done,if he is has nothing to hid( unfortunately, he has too much buried for years)rather than:
1- Misusing the Church and all the human resources,
2-and using Assoc pastors+BOD's+mislead/deceived members as his SHEILD, by giving ceramahs nightly to Justify for all the abuses, and called it " CC Perspective"!
Dr. Lum has offered to testify before the entire Congregation. In PG's case, the way he is "mobilising' others, he can only be called a COWARD.
Joseph, ok I will contact you. I am a he, so you dont have to bring your wife.
BLOOD Money
PG lives in multi million$ bungalow, and earns a combined income/ all expenses paid & perks of RM500K above.
Azalea's parents stay in a newly renovate house worth a $ million. She is decorated with branded items -- and flies 3 time or more USA-KL return..
What else can anyone make any sense of these "sponsorship' Uni fees --even,for books! from Missions to them???
Filthy rich grand parents--Tan Sri PG, oh, God help us, how dare they still 'rob' this MISSIONS money?
From every available opportunity, They squeeze blood from stones!
How despicable.
Publish Part lll in one go.
Why let us wait for few days?
People are getting edgy and beginnig to switch off this
channel.
Dr. Lum . Agreed with Go to Court
& Anonymous.
File your affidavit as you got a prima facie case.
Fight for justice.
To: Shocked No More
Azalea only flies back from America at least twice a year. I would object that she is 'decorated' with branded items because it is untrue. How sure are you, anyway? I simply believe these are pure assumptions. The house they stay was renovated years ago - hence the term, 'newly renovated' is a fallacy.
Please get your facts right before commenting. One should only post a comment concerning an issue after being sure that the stated fact/issue is correct.
So sad to see our hard earned money goes to support the luxurious lifestye of SP.
What a real shame and disgrace... PG, APs and Bod think they can fool members with all the sweet talk and justifications.
They didn't realise that the hole they have dug to trap members will soon be the very hole they will fall right in!
CT is right that at first by PG's act of 'if I have caused..." apology one would think he was repentant but no, on the contrary now PG, APs and BOD are even more adamant to telling more lies to justify their wrongs.
God is fully aware of all the lies and abuses they have committed and we are sure God will act in due time when the sins are in full bloom.
What a shame and how despicable that we have such "professional liars and twisters" as leaders in CC! In the world if such scandals had happened they would have resigned long long ago. But in CC there is no shame in the leaders at all!
to the truth: have u been to Azalea's hse and seen the luxurious and expensive renovation before? do u hv any idea how much it cost to hv such an extensive renovation? definitely not something an average person like u and me can afford, that's for sure! doesn't Azalea have mac book which is very expensive and most youths can't even afford?? and by her coming back even twice a year shows that her parents hv no money issues to paying for her airfares...so why should they get missions to sponsor her initial airfare in the 1st place? shouldn't it hv been used for a less fortunate staff who might hv needed it more for his or her children's education?
can someone please explain what is the proof the "personnel" account is for outreach pastors and not staff?
To :the Truth (?)
It's very easy for you to verify the facts brought up in the open. Go no further then ask themselves directly. To be sure, ask for a guided tour of the newly renovated house--and satisfy yourself.
I'm suprised that despite having minutes as proof ppl still don believe.I'm only guesssing they have made up their minds already.
Dear Ms Wong, dont you remember about a year ago or more, a pastor during a second morning service in DH was trying to defend his wealth reaping ways. He was saying how he has suffered during his pioneering years of ministering in Klang where he was given an old van. According to him, now in CC its only fair that he starts to reap all the wealth that he wants. Then he reminded us of an old secular song called Johnnie Comes Lately. Do you remember? Honestly, if you want to do an asset net worth of him, he will probably worth millions. How many pastors in Malaysia are worth that much? Yes we agree that pastors should have enough to have a decent living but this is EXTRAVAGANCE.
To Anonymous May 13, 2009 10:17 PM
You're right, "Personnel" account in the Missions budget can be for staff but coz it's a missions budget, definitely it must be for missions staff, right? That includes outreach pastors, right? You cannot classify outreach pastors as equipment, right? Pastors's salaries are classified as stipends and are in the main church account, not missions account, ok. Missions accounts funds are from your faith promise. So how can the church take faith promise money from "Personnel" account under missions to pay for pastors' children's airfare and studies? see the point?
To Anonymous May 13, 2009 10:20 PM
At EGM, auditors already said that in earlier years, not every pages of the minutes are signed, so how can you be sure that the pages are not changed? no one will know if SP or anyone change the pages. So there's some doubt.
Anon May 13, 2009 10:17pm and Anon May 13, 10:20pm. Guess you are of the same person.
Out there, there are speculations and there are truths. Even lies contain elements of truth. There are even lies painted as truth.
Do not be deceived or rather willingly being deceived. WORSE OF ALL, DO NOT EVEN TRY TO DECEIVE!
It is not about the apparency that we should dwell with rather we should be concerned the spirit that is behind. Do you have ears?
HaHaHa.
In all my years in CC. I never been any of their homes less where they stay.
Its shrouded with secrecy like Fort Knox.
Even an invitation to our home for a farewell was even turned down.
I got no respect for them.
Send them back where they belong.
They have no place here to milked their extravagance.
i dun think it is nice at all in CT's comments section with all the bashing towards SP and family and to other people. Some of the names mentioned are people i respect and honour too. Similarly i dun think it is funny and nice at all to be bashing at TTG ppl in CU's blog's comments section.
Why are majority of the comments pointed towards the individuals involved rather than the issue at hand? BOTH in CT and CU/CK.
i thought matured adults would know how to differentiate between dealing with the issue at hand vs personality attacks.
No?
Is it possible to refrain from talking/attacking individuals (HM, KC, SP, WSL etc etc etc...), but rather keep to the issue at hand?
thank you. peace out.
ps: thanks CT, for the latest updates; and the call to pray for the nation.
If deacons previously were not even allowed to bring any copies of the minutes home..how does one ensure that the minutes presented now are the actual minutes?? do we then just act as zombies and accept these minutes as true and final just because the current BOD tell us that they are??
Obviously we have touched your
Archille's heel, The Real Issues.
Its better for them to retire
honorably or sack in disgrace
The Choice is theirs
Hi "??",
U r 100% right - correct, correct correct !!!
If the integrity of the minutes are in question because of PG's policy to shred all minutes except the one which is kept in CC's office, then it follows that the integrity of the custodian is in question, too.
One needs to look into the intent & motive(s) of the person who set up this practice which sounds so draconian unlike what Jesus would want.
Do you know that Bishop Ng from the Anglican Church was my university mate in Australia?
He is from Ipoh and he became a Christian in Melbourne.
Believe it or not, I could see that his studies improved tremendously after he became a Christian.
Its so heartening to see him giving up his civil engineering training that he has received and becoming an Anglican. Praise God!
It seems , like the Perak State
Mentri Besar, there is an Impasse.
Ok, we will bring it to the rakyat
or members to decide.
Please do it quickly.
Matter has been lingering for too long
i think all these issues would not be such a major thing if SP is not so double standard. many churches lavish extravagant gifts to their pastors and their family because their pastors have loved them and served them and grow them spiritually and they love their pastors. in CC case, it's because the SP has taken and taken and taken and abused, never really pastoring the ppl. that's why people are fedup.
On the role of a pastor, below are a few of pastoral traps.
Rationalization and Unaccountability:
When black-and-white facts are whitewashed, when wrong is justified with a defensive spirit, when inappropriate actions are quickly glossed over an/or denied - watch out. Something's wrong. Rationalization is occurring.
Pastors have to be careful that they don't exchange their role of teaching what the Word means with a dogmatic deciding what it means. Scriptural truth must never be altered to fit the pastor's lifestyle; it's the other way around.
Pastors must be accountable - not isolated islands of independence. Sustaining unaccountability is like moral quicksand. Pastors must beware of becmoing a secretive and untouchable man. Pastors must not rationalize their way around it be claiming "I am God's anointed." Pastors are God's servants.
No matter how eloquent or how competent they become, none is above accountability. Otherwise, rationalization may worm its way into the pulpits....or worse into their hearts.
Greed:
Pastors can easily fall into the trap of money grubbing. Or in simpler terms, they can become greedy.
This is true if money winds up in the pastor's pocket that was earmarked for some other realms of ministry. This is true if the minister is asked about his financial policy with regard to ministry money, and he responds with a "that's-none-of-your-business" type of reaction.
Greed has no shame. It will wink at pastors and tempt him. If pastors are not careful, they will find themselves justifying greed.
Exclusivism:
Pastors can also fall into exclusivism. An exclusive spirit occurs when a pastor allow (or even promotes) a clannish, cultic kind of following around him.
Paronoia often accompanies an exclusive spirit: "Other ministries don't do it as well as I do" or some similar statement. If too many first-person pronouns are used, it is nothing more than pride.
Pastors must cultivate genuine humility. Pastors must ensure that their attitude and words and those of the church's leaders/staffs will not become exclusive.
Authoritarianism:
The problem of authoritarianism. Pastors can become authoritarian. If a pastor needlessly represses the freedom of God's people, if he becomes inflexible and dictorial, tyrannical and oppressive, if he bullies people with threats, if he lacks a servant's heart, if he himself is not teachable, if his arrogance has replaced humility, then he has become an authoritarian.
Authoritarianism is not the same as leadership. It is leadership gone wild. Put bluntly, it is sin.
Having read the above, can anyone confidently and proudly say that SP has not fall into the above bad conducts or rather practicing any of the above.
Didn't adeline koh request to stay in the room of that building?
Thank u, CT for the updates on the brain-washing ceramahs in CC.
TTG/CT guys sure must got lots of support from life group leaders and SP supporters to be able to get recordings and briefing notes and I heard, even the BOD's powerpoint notes.
I've not been call to attend, anyway I won't waste my precious time attending even if they call. Very tired of BOD, SP and APs' non-stop justifying their wrong-doings. hope they don't do the same when they meet Jesus face to face one day.
Keep up great work, CT.
I observed all the characteristics in PG : Greed, Exclusivism, Authoritarianism.
AS pointed out it is sin and there is no place for God's servant to be leading the church when his life is not right before God and men so why is PG still clinging so desperately to the SP position? Why are APs and BOD openly declaring and still standing fully behind PG and supporting his leadership?
We are indeed dumbfounded and really disappointed. We have to ask ourselves : Could it be that the leadership has verved away from their devotion to God but is now serving another kind... the prince of the world and seeking earthly wealth and vain glory?
God have mercy upon Calvary Church.. let Your cleansing fire descend upon the altars at Calvary Church to remove all unrighteousness, ungodliness and sins, which are being whitewashed and justified by pastors and BOD and deemed as right even when they are abhorred and detested by God!
Come Lord Jesus come cleanse, heal and restore our church.. In Jesus' Mighty Name we pray.
AMEN.
This is my first posting here.
I am tired but could not sleep. Yes, the session no doubt is boring. Wonder why the BOD worked so hard to get the members brain-washed. I am least concern about that now after hearing some interesting thoughts and comments from the floor.
Will contribute my share hopefully starting tomorrow if times permit. Have to get some sleep.
15,000 K for PG fitness club
I am told that it was mentioned during one of the infamous ceramahs of CC that this approval was given in 1994 when I was a deacon. I would like to say that I cannot recall such a thing happening and I have no minutes to refer to as the minutes were taken back by PG.
Correction: 15K for PG Fitness club
Oh ya sure, just go straight to the court.
Come, I shall give you directions too: Walk straight, make a left turn, then take 2 turns to the right and jump right off the cliff. The court's down there. Right at the bottom of the pit. The location might have been pretty unexpected for you, eh?
Don't ask me why cuz it was built there before I was born and it certainly wasn't my idea, I mean, I wasn't born yet right?
Go ahead, present your case to the world.
And let the whole wide world - which consists of billions of non-Christians, potential believers, strayed away Christians, people who don't know about Christ, anti-Christians etc, by the way if you didn't know - believe that Christians = hypocrites and encourage them to despise/hate us and doubt Christ and give them (mostly anti-Christians) "points" to "hit" at us.
Cuz I'm very sure that it'll appear right in the front page of a thick bunch of recycled paper called...? Newspaper! (And internets and stuff, but that’s not recycled paper…) Oh, what a genius you are! Would you please teach me how to study physics then, genius?
-------
I know I sound super sarcastic and all but hey, don't judge me, some of you are being sarcastic too, ok. I just saw a couple of comments asking for a court case and I didn't want you guys to get carried away, alright. We might not be on newspapers – yet - but even with the 4 blogs, we have crossed the line, and went waaay past the limits, ok. I'm not saying that truth should be hidden and/or that we Christians are perfect or anything like that. But what I'm trying to say is this: We are different. Well, at least we are suppose to be different. And frankly speaking, we're not. Not even close to bacteria-size difference, ok.
Since I’m in this topic, if you guys (referring to all 4 blogs) can, please STOP the blogs.
I know that for many of you, this is the only way you can express your viewpoints and opinions and grievances. But these 4 blogs are really bringing the Christian community down. Not just Calvary. But the entire Christian community. And that's not the main point. Thing is we're not being different, we're not being the salt & light unto the world. We are not Christ’s ambassadors. We are not Christ-like. We are shaming Christ.
I realize that some, if not many, of you might harbour ill-feelings towards me cuz I opposed the 4 blogs. And you’d probably say that I purposely diverted to this topic etc. But honestly speaking, it just came to me, alright? Whether or not you want to believe me, I can’t and will not force you.
I agree with may 14, anon. We respect and honor our fathers. When we are grown up children, we bless our fathers with money and gifts that we can afford and want to give them the best as they did when we were kids and they give us the best. Here SP is like the wicked stepmother in stories, who exploits, violates, abused, bullied us and now we are older, he cannot continue his exploitation and abuse. We don't hate him or his cohorts, we just won't let the abuse continue. We are now adults children. If only he had been the spiritual father he should have been to us!
The more I read of the church constitution, the more worried and concerned I am. If it is not reviewed and amended in totality, our SP present or future will be like the Untouchable One, given the authority and power that he gets. Sometimes we think our SP doesnt know what his subordinates are doing and that they were doing out of their initiatives. Dont believe it. Read Article VII item no. 4. It says that "Any resolutions, motions or decisions passed in any departmental or Committee meeting must have the consent of the SP to be valid."
Please read an interesting article in The Star on page N32. About CBT and opening a bank account with a false document.
Thank you, Anonymous May 16, 2009 1:07 AM for your comments.
Your testimony that you can't recall that such approval for SP's 15K "club benefit" took place in 1994 although you were a deacon then, raises a question mark.
There have been quite a few instances where the deacons cannot remember that such and such approval was made by the BOD and then conveniently, out of the blue, a BOD resolution or minutes appears.
Oh Yes, CT, you're right on.
That's call miracles. Miracles happens all the time in Calvary when previous unknown minutes can suddenly appear.
Let's pray that God will stop this particular 'miracle'.
To: Virchaso A. said...
May 16 2009 11
What CRUDE sarcasm and what RESOUNDING condemnation and yet you yourself could not resist doing the very thing you yourself condemn – blogging about CC. To put it in one word that is called “HYPOCRITISM”.
CC CERAMAH-CERAMAH
It was highlighted in the ceramahs that approval of 15K for PG fitness club was given by the BOD in 1994 which was 15 years ago! How many deacons would be able to remember something that happened 15 years ago? They would have to refer to the Minutes but all the official minutes were taken back by PG for reasons that only he knows. The next thing is to check the ONLY OFFICIAL COPY of the Minutes available which is kept by PG. Then again who is to tell that no alterations have been made?
Pastor SK said that Deacons are allowed to take back notes. Providing this is true, then people should realise that notes are usually very brief notations and are done only to clarify things here and there in bits and pieces. These notes may be just opinions relevant only to the person making them and does not represent the opinions of the whole board. Further they are not authenticated by relevant signatures and OFFICIALLY PASSED in a meeting to show that they have been endorsed by the Board of Deacons. In other words, notes have no credibility as a legal document. Taking personal notes back is NOT the same as being allowed to take copies of the original minutes. AND FURTHER TO THIS, the notes made are usually on the Minutes themselves which are taken back.
To: Virchaso A.
What you said about being a bad testimony to the world is correct but you are bashing the wrong people. Why did the TTG hold back on going to the authorites - exactly for the same reason - not to be a bad testimony for non-Christians.
If CC had not taken such a stand that did not allow fair "play" and freedom of speech - Would the bogs be started?
If SP being CC's shepherd had, right at the start, stepped out and had dialogue with the group that is bringing up so many things that needed to be changed - Would the blog be started and so many dirty linen washed for the whole world to see?
The person who showed to the whole world a bad Christian testimony is PG, our SP - he is just keeping quiet and letting everyone speak for him.
As long as PG, our SP does not step out and do reconciliation - nothing will ever be done to correct the situation.
You obviously do not know PG as a person!!
Sad to say all these revelations about the internal and administrative practices in CC are far from being exemplary of good and transperant church governance. Now this bad practices are being exploited and what is the true situation could very well be manupilated by the the SP and BOD to suit their own agenda. This looks something like the occult in disguise?
What more APs and BOD also just tow the line with the SP and zip their mouths and refused to stand up for truth and righteousness?
Why so frigthened of a man? Why choose to fear man rather than God? Why put their necks on the chopping board on PG's behalf? Why the hero worshipping? Isn't it folly?
We have absolutely lost all respect for this present leadership. The practices are worst than any secular organization.
Twisting and hiding here and there and come out with their own tales of justification under the name of our faith. How long can this go on?
We shall pray for God's intervention....and may God's miracle take place soon.
During Q&A time, someone in the briefing or Ceramah told BOD Philip Tan that "I read from the blog...". Philip Tan was outrageous condemning the blogs, asking us not to look to blogs (both blogs) for information but instead to engage CC leadership directly for the facts. I think he has a point here and am happy about the improvement albeit a little. Would appreciate you guys contact the appropriate leaders directly if you have doubt on specific issues instead of reading from the blogs.
A LOST CAUSE
How we wished the same effort, time & resources PG has mobilised for these weeks of 'ceramah ' to save his own neck, could be used for missions field--
reaching the needy, lost, broken hearted... imagine "converting" these previous time to door-to-door ministry or how about Visitation to every member home--which was what our pioneer pastors did--caring enough to enquire of the individual's well-being.
Yet, the Ass.pastors & BOD who are God's servants choose to be collaborators on this wasteful politicking!
So Tragic for them.
How
We have come to a point where reconciliation seems to be far beyond the horizon of Calvary Church. The repetitive word bashing on SP, APs and BODs seems to have been ongoing incessantly. I am a member of the silent majority who agrees not with SP/BOD, and neither do I agree with CT/TTG.
I am thankful for CT/TTG in some ways because you suddenly brought about that wake up call to SP/BOD that they should not be exalted in Calvary Church. This came as a perfect reminder to SP/BOD that Calvary Church belongs to God’s family and not to the Guneratnam’s empire. You serve as a responsible “opposition” so far, and to me, that is very good.
However, I agree with the small group meetings that are currently on-going. Yeah they are trying to garner as much support as possible. Yet at the same time, it does provide a less threatening environment for me to ask questions after questions.
At this point, may I ask, does CT/TTG desires for reconciliation in Calvary Church?
If yes, besides SP stepping down, what does CT/TTG really look for in being a responsible conscience in Calvary? What are the acceptable steps that SP/BOD can take to reconcile with CT/TTG?
I know there are way too much “SP should do this, SP should do that”. But CT, what is your take on this?
CC CERAMAH-CERAMAH, 16MAY 2009 4.01PM
FYI, this comment was made by a deacon in the 1994 BOD.
A PARALLEL
Remember the story of the woman who stole someone's child, and when the genuine mother
bought the case to court and asked for the return
of her baby, the Stealer protested & even counter-claim.
Then the wise Judge said to them: Alright, since that both lay claim, he will order the baby to be cut into two and each woman can have halve.
The mother of the baby, of course, who will never want to see her baby dead, told the Judge if that being the case she'd rather Sacrifice and give it to the 'stealer' instead, so that the baby live!
Immediately, the Judge knew and declared who of the two women was the TRUE mother.
NOW, think of CC which is facing a crisis of the Stealer's doing-- does the present SP has a true shepherd's heart? Consider how he is happy with one Halve, of a divided church!
Will God who loves His church entrust it to such a 'shepherd'?
To Anonymous (16/05/09 - 3:35 p.m.):
Well, I was just explaining why cannot judge me for being sarcastic just in case, you know, you ask. (and at least I did own up to it, by the way) If you want to see it that way, I can't stop you.
And since when did I blog about Calvary? Is it my comment on this blog that sounds like I'm blogging about Calvary or makes you think that I blog about Calvary? Or probably you've mistaken me for someone else. I don't know. But, just to clarify, I do not blog about Calvary except for times whereby I blog about an upcoming event like Easter, testimonies like 447 people got saved during Easter, that kinda thing, get? If saying that I come from Calvary Church when people ask is considered blogging about Calvary, I really didn't know.
Also since when did I condemn blogging about Calvary? Probably you misunderstood. I was talking about the “washing dirty linens in public” part, just to let you know in case you didn’t “catch” it or something.
If you really don't like me opposing the 4 blogs, well, it's up to you. The familiar words once again: I cannot force you.
Probably you don’t really like the “lesson” I typed also ‘cause I’m younger or something or whatever. In any case, I can’t make you swallow it down. You have your say, I have mine. Again, for the don’t-know-how-many-times-already, if you want to see things & take things in your way, na-ah, I can’t and will not stop you.
By the way, if – and I’d like to emphasize the word IF for this case, just in case – you really don’t like the “lesson” or whatnot, just say it, you can quit beating around the bush, it can be really “tellable” at times.
(p.s.: I know you think – or at least, might be thinking – that I'm being sarcastic again, but let me tell you this: I'm not. But as I have said, yet again, whether or not you want to believe, it's totally up to you)
-
To Fed-up (16/05/09 - 6:36 p.m.):
If you say that, it would be – to put it simply - equivalent to: for change and etc, we must be a bad testimony to the world. If I misunderstood you, I apologize.
I don't know about you, but that’s really what what you typed meant - to me, at least.
I’m not saying that change is bad etc. What I’m trying to point out is that – ok, I don’t know how to put this in words so I’ll try using an illustration and hopefully, you’ll get what I’m trying to say – what if people like Philip Pullman (or maybe even worse, Mr. Pullman himself) stumbles upon this blog? What do you think will happen?
I too, like you and many others – I believe – want this to come to an end, FAST (for me, at least). Many times I get an idea or I think I know what to do. But in the end, God said to me: “Patience.”
I don’t know if this will apply to you, but, just telling you. It could be a pointer, perhaps, not even for this matter. I don’t know.
Thanks for reading by the way, thought no one would.
Anonymous said...
“Philip Tan was outrageous condemning the blogs, asking us not to look to blogs (both blogs) for information but instead to engage CC leadership directly for the facts”.
MAY 16, 2009 9:34 PM
From what I know the TTG have tried to engage with PG & BOD many times and consistently came against a stone wall as far as truth, transparency and good governance is concerned. They feel that they have significant information that all church members should know. These information deal with matters that are insidiously destroying their church without them knowing.
The church members are not little children. They should know the word of God and they are mature working people. To even consider that they can be so easily misled by any blog is to bring insult the very congregation that they lead.
I think all members should read all blogs. There is no smoke without fire. Then, if the members have any doubts they should bring it to the leadership for clarification, especially in a public platform like the AGM & EGM. That is what AGMs & EGMs are for aren’t they. If not, do away with AGMs & EGMs. AGMs & EGMs are to allow members the chance to ask anything they are not happy about concerning the running of the church –WITHOUT FEAR OR FAVOUR, WITHOUT MANIPULATIONS AND OPPRESSION.
It must be understood that for PG and the BOD they have the whole church machinery at their disposal to get information across to the members, like for example the ceramahs being conducted currently, the pulpit every Sunday, they can hold meeting any time they want with whomever they want and they have the newsletters. For the TTG’s, the blog is practically their only effective platform. Any one calling for it to be closed must be really joking or a joker.
PT seems to be losing his cool ever so often nowadays. Why? Is it because he and the BOD, for the first time, are not able to control the true information from getting out?
Is TTG interested in reconciliation? From what I know they have always wanted to. But the leadership has always had a way of turning their deaf ears.
To Reconciliation not possible?
Of course reconciliation is possible but who do you think has the power and authority to take the first step. After all as Christians we should reconcile, not fight and divide.
The real issue members are asking is for truth and transparancies. However SP and the BOD are trying to distract from the real issues - truth and transparancies. Is there anything so sinful and wrong to ask for truth and tranparancies.
All the small group meetings had highlighted the need for truth and transparancies all the more as most of the explanations are justification to cover up.
BOD PT in one meeting said that as the constitution has served the congregation for so long it is not necessary to make amendments. Is he telling us that SP and the BOD are not sincere to move forward and make amendments to the constitution. So all those committees are just there not to make any amendments but wool pulled over the eyes of the members that they are moving forward??
It is because of the constitution, the way it is structured that is causing so much problem today. SP and the BOD have all the power, members got no say over money the members have sacrificed for the Lord's work.
In the earlier days, the members voted by secret ballot whether they wish to retain the SP at that time. This was done yearly at the AGM but it was changed to every two years. When the constitution was amended, this practice was entirely not followed. At that time the members were very trusting and never thought that our SP would take advantage of his position.
Let us focus on the real issues the members want - As Christians and leaders, please have truth and transparancies. Please do away with cover up and justifications. People are not that naive not to see what is justifications and cover ups.
CLARIFICATION: We must have love said... MAY 17 2009 11.14
“BOD PT in one meeting said that as the constitution has served the congregation for so long it is not necessary to make amendments”.
Neither PT nor the BOD have the moral right to block calls from the MAJORITY of the congregation to change any part of the constitution. All the members of the BOD were ELECTED by the CONGREGATION to manage church matters fairly and justly for the WHOLE church i.e both the pastors, all leaders and EVERY MEMBER of the congregation. They must not only be deemed to be right but they must also be SEEN to be right.
THE PROBLEM is that the present constitution gives PG and BOD so much power that they simply ignore the cries of the congregation and nobody can do anything about it. It is exactly this kind of abuse in power that need to change thru changes in the constitution.
It needs also to be understood that PG & BOD may right constitutionally but morally wrong. How? The moral standard as governed by the precepts of the bible has a higher standing than the constitution itself.In other words PG & BOD may be constitutionally right (based on a poorly drafted, biased constitution) but they may not be right at all in God’s eyes according to His word. God’s judgements are always based more on His word rather than a on poor constitution. Therefore PG & BOD would be most wise to tread a little more carefully rather than eagerly pursulng the path of arrogance and autocraticy.
I couldn't help it but to look for the definitions or meanings for the word 'CULT' in the dictionary. After reading through all the different meanings of the word, my spirit feels very disturbed and this question keeps on playing over and over again in my head: Are certain things that the BOD, APs and certain members doing are actually a form of CULT?
What made this pertinent question keeps on playing in my mind is because one of the meanings or definitions for the word CULT is "a group or sect bound together by veneration of the same thing, person, ideal, etc."
The way the APs, BOD and certain members venerate and hero-worship PG is "very scary." To me, the person PG is "everything" to them and they would do anything to protect him, though they know (but chose not to acknowledge) that something is NOT RIGHT and NOT PLEASING TO GOD happening in CC. They fear him more than fearing God.
When I made a comparison with what the TTG group and most members wanted were for Truth, Transparencies and Good Governance in our church administration, I began to realize that the TTG group never "fought" for a particular person(s) e.g. HM, KC, SC, Lisa etc but solely for the issues at hand. That really made me think; Is our church in danger of cult practices and cultures???
Now, are we going to just allow such things to happen or seriously do something about it? The Lord made it very clear in His words: " And Elijah came near to all the people and said, How long will you go on balancing between two opinions? If the Lord is God, then give worship to him; but if Baal, give worship to him. And the people said not a word in answer." (1 Kings 18:21). He also said in Deuteronomy 5:6-10, " I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery; you shall have no other gods before me. You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and fourth generation of those who reject me, but showing steadfast love to the thousandth generation of those who love me and keep my commandments."
Brothers & Sisters in Christ and fellow Calvarites, I humbly urge you to pray and fast if you must for the situation in our church. God will not be mocked.
Members urged the church and the new BOD (for the coming AGM) to be more transparent with all the funds collected from the members.
All funds should be approved by all the BOD and made known to members of the church.
To me, the Mission funds under "personnel" is meant for missionery workers locally or overseas which is sent by the church only and not other benefits.
Hope the new BOD would see all these points and be transparent. This is important to the members as they all work hard to earn a living too.
Indeed we have noted the happenings and developments in CC and that the way the church leadership handles the matters is far from being Christ-like and godly conduct. It smacks of the occultic and ungodly behaviour.
Pastors and BOD are no longer reasonable or in the right frame of mind, they are aggressive, angry and resentful even towards people whom they were good friends for many many years just because of one man.
These leaders are so protective of the SP that they would like even die on his behalf. They have gone to all lengths to protect SP's position and image. Why is this so? Their minds and spirits seemed to be overwhelmed and dominated by a powerful force that had eminated from PG.
They hero worship PG and think he is absolutely right and what he has done is nothing wrong at all, it is just those "difficult group of members" who stir matters up due to a different perception or opinion.
These CC leaders should subject themselves to God and yield to the Holy Spirit instead they have yielded themselves to the man, who thinks he has done no wrong. Hence, APs, BOD and leaders try all means to justify and cover up for PG while he would be secretly laughing away.
This is very dangerous indeed. Now that members are aware about all these wrongs and cover-ups and that CC pastors and BOD are no longer God fearing but instead fearing PG, the man who thinks he has done no wrong despite all the revelations, what are we to do? Keep quiet and wait for God's intervention? Or arise, speak up and act and do as the Lord will lead us.... surely God desires His church to be holy and spotless.
God will hold His servants and shepherds accountable for all they have done and whatever they have not done too.
Nothing escapes God's eyes and knowledge.
CHURCH INTERNAL SECURITY ACT!
At a recent Christian conference I was blessed by leaders in Ministry who put others before self. I am sure God has raised such leaders to champion Christianity in Malaysia. Wisdom dictates it would be unwise to go into details in a blog but suffice to say that there are genuine caring brothers and sisters in Malaysia who have a heart for the people. God bless them.
The key take away from the conference is clear: WE DO NOT HAVE TO ASK "WHAT LOCUS STANDI HAVE WE BEFORE WE EXTEND OUR HAND TO HELP ANOTHER!"
The message is very clear - when we
see suffering and victimisation - we don't have to look for a "locas
standi" - basic human dignity requires our intervention. Away with CHOCOLATE SOLDIERS! (Coined by CT Studd for weak, timid and faithless Christians).
One of the speakers made an interesting comment which I can relate to Christianity. Christianity in Malaysia is not what the Bible says BUT what the leadership say. Hence, churches that have ROGUE OR SELF-SERVING PASTORS end up being controlled by leadership that propagate "CHRISTIANITY AS I
SAY"... so when the congregation or members questions them the "CISA" (Church Internal Security Act) is thrown at those who dare question the church leadership to shut-up or else!.
There are those of you who love your church and are now fighting a battle which is getting tougher. But do not give up. Often the darkest hours are before a new dawn. This is my experience.
Vijay
Dear Bro Vijay,
"He is the same yesterday, today and forever. I am believing that the church now split will became the church united and the gates of hell can NEVER prevail against CALVARY CHURCH."
Amen to that. We Calvarites must believe that God's plan for our church will prevail. No man or church committees can stand in God's way without getting burned by His Holiness. We need to be faithful and hear from Him Alone.
WHO WLL BE FOOLED?
Since I am one of those not "selected" to attend the 'Ceramah' but did manage to get to read what the BOD dished out , thanks to CT--may I asked any of the Bro or Sis who will be attending to get answers to some of the questions, please:
1.What do they mean by "ADDRESS from CC's PERSPECTIVE" ?
CC is the Church made-up of members, So how dare the PG & BOD conveniently said what are strictly their own views & OPINIONs as if it's of the Congregation! What a SLY way to hookwink unsuspecting members that those are ‘perspectives’ of the entire church.
If PG & BOD are dead sure of their stand, they should state these as PG’s & BOD’s ANSWERS.
Perspective and ANSWERS are not the same thing. So goes to show, they are again trying to MISLEAD, as they have NO TRUTH to declare boldly.
2. PASTORAL RESPONSE ( Pulpit Bashing)
They quote the Bible 2 Timonthy 3:16. How
laughable! Is this all what the Ass. Pastors have to
say in this entire Crisis, and apply out of context at
that!?
Do they not know what Our Lord Jesus Christ said
about the letter & the Spirit of the law? Servanthood?
Covetousness? Lying? Stealing? Greed? Deny Self?
Injustice? Abuse of power? GOD is not Mocked?
3. Dr. LUM excluded from Friday Meeting
Think, Dr. Lum served Eleven(11)years as Deacon
(11x52 week=572 weeks)
And Ass Pas Kum recalled he led in Prayer at least 4
times..(out of 572) or less than 1%
If that is not sidelined or “cold storaged” in corporate
world term,what is?
So, they claimed PG played no part in the planning of
the Fri Prayers.. wow, he sure had trained or
indoctrinated all the ASS. Pastors so well , they simply
know what to do! ( just the same case with the
removal of those axed from serving Communion, with
Ass. Pas Raymond taking BLAME (not responsibility )
he acted on his own accord—Bravo!)
4. ADELINE KOH’s room (Photo)
Someone had asked and it was confirmed by the
presenter Deacon, the photo shown was taken AFTER
she had moved out!
Didn’t PG and these bunch of BOD and Ass. Pastors
knowingly tampered with ‘EDVIDENCE’ ( it’s like a
before and after a *murder scene? *Borrowing the
term BOD Pattrick Wong used as an analogy in
answer to one Q from the floor at CIM EGM)
FACTS: -- In all the ‘Ceramahs’ similar questions were
given different versions.
-- Those presenters though were supplied with
common SCRIPT— unfortunately, can’t
deal with questions asked by the EMBOLDEN
members prompted by the Holy Spirit, on
the spot.
-- they had meant it, in Ass. Pas & BOD own
words to “CONTROL” the members, i.e. cast
doubt in their minds & to confuse real
issues over which had been exposed by
TTG concerned members. And Hard
questions were only be heard by limited
(small numbers of persons) rather than the
Hundreds in an Open Session with the Entire
Congregation . Therefore, less damaging to
them.
PRAISE GOD, HE HAS MEANT IT FOR GOOD FOR TTG.
WONDERING WHY
A) Isn't it strange, Dr.Lum's letter and allegations were meant for PG, yet why is it everyone from BOD, Ass. Pastors and all their cronies taking turn turn to reply and defend Except PG himself?
B) Does it make sense that the Closed Door
Ceramah, only present their 'CC perspectives'--
What about Dr. Lum's-- Isn't he entitled to give
his?
C) What's the real purpose and objective of such
conducting 'CLOSED DOOR' sessions--doesn't it
give rise to more speculation of SP's motive
rather than getting to the bottom of the real
issues?
Now, I have more to wonder than before...
Why the Burden is shifted on all on us, members? seems like we are being used as Pawns: fighting each other and discouraged family, spilt loved ones & friends.
The Lord God Our Righteous Judge
Psalm 7:7-17
"v.7 Let the assembled peoples gather around You.
Rule over them from on high;
v.8 let the Lord judge the peoples.
Judge me, O Lord, according to my righteousness,
according to my integrity,
O Most High.
v.9 O righteous God, who searches minds and hearts,
Bring to an end the violence of the wicked
and make the righteous secure.
v.10 My shield is God Most High, who saves the upright in heart.
v.11. God is a righteous Judge, a God who expresses His wrath every day.
v.12 If he does not relent, He will sharpen His sword;
He will bend and string His bow.
v.13 He has prepared His deadly weapons;
He makes ready His flaming arrows.
v.14 He who is pregnant with evil and conceives trouble gives birth to disillusionment.
v.15 He who digs a hole and scoops it out
falls into the pit he has made.
v.16 The trouble he causes recoils on himself;
his violence comes down on his own head.
v.17 I will give thanks to the Lord because of His righteousness
and will sing praise to the Name of the LORD Most High."
We thank GOD that we have a righteous and just God who knows all the events that are happening in CC. God will not allow ungodliness and deception to reign in His church.
We can cry to God our Righteous Judge; and He will hear and answer from on high and He will send His Holy fire to cleanse His church.."He has prepared His deadly weapons and His flaming arrows".
Whatever the schemes of men will crush and break out and they will fall into the very trap which they have set up themselves.
We shall wait quietly for the salvation of the LORD.
Hallelujah!
Often I save articles and comments from CT.
However lately, I can still save what I want. But I am not able to print the full text. There was no problem before.
Can the administrators of CT please have a check and remedy the problem if necessary.
Thank you
My group was on the Saturday.
Pastor Peter was the moderator.
Since he was the previous missions director, a member has voiced up regarding the "scholarships/ air tickets" issue.
We voiced out that is is NOT suitable to be placed under "personnel" under Missions as people get confused.
We suggested that the BOD look into another way / method of distributing these "scholarships/ and air tickets".
Bro Philip (BOD) and Pastor Peter agreed to look into this matter.
So, I guess these meetings are a good to voice out our concerns.
Dont be silly. Whatever is agreed by any AP or BOD does not hold water unless SP approves or agrees with it. So all they can say is they agreed to look into it. Doesnt it sound familiar?
Deja vu responses of "point taken", "we will look into it" etc are just made for the sake of making a statement at the small meetings as well as often during
AGM and EGM. Believe me no minutes of the "small" meetings are recorded and there is no particular pastor/deacon has responsibility to follow-up diligently. All the "points taken" are now pointing back at pastors and deacons for the lack of serious positive and meaningful action which ought to have been taken over the years not just today.
Remember the promise of better communication authoritatively communicated by deacon Philip Tan(after the Aug EGM).
Search and quote an example of an important matter which has relevance to the current issue of poor church governance that has seen the light of day and carried in the bi-monthly Calvary Newsletters to inform the congregation of key updates. Can we continue believing the assurance of better communication mouthed by the leadership!!
The pastors and the deacons have the audacity to suggest that the Calvary Today blog be shut down. Please tell us what's the alternative source for information of vital church happenings such as the holding of the Kangaroo court, action taken to remove members serving in all and sundry volunteering positions and organising most recently the small group meetings which for all intent and purpose is to promote the HOLINESS OF SIN. Pastors and deacons are there at the small meetings to praise a man (not to solve problem as all know that the root cause of the problem still exists)
Truly the rationale is to present more and more versions on the wrong-doings with the intent to cover up, confuse and continue with business as usual (which I term the 3 bad Cs)
Hello? Where's the Report and Recommendations of the Constitutions Review Committee after more than nine(9) months? Whereas they got all the time to spare for holding small meetings every week.
Hi Annie
Your last line will only be relevant IF changes takes place. Yes, you were acknowledged at the meetings, I am not too sure whether they will really look into it.
If you would have noticed, most of the issues raised were on the classification of money that were paid out and categorised inappropriately/incorrectly. We have so many well qualified professionals, yet this mistake prevails?
Some years back, when I found out that faith promise funds were channelled to Calvary Convention Centre, I was shocked. Some of my friends confronted pastoral staff whom confirmed this as true AND ironically the pastoral staff do not seem to think that this is a gross misrepresentation.
We were flabbergasted that invited guest pastors preached on faith promise Sundays giving us impressions that faith promise pledges were solely for Missions - reaching the poor, orphaned, widowed, etc. I think these invited pastors thought that it is chanelled this manner, otherwise, they would have included CCC in the sermon notes.
My friends who have attended Calvary for years and gives substantial offerings have since left the church.
This is all really sad as far too many issues were vaguely classified in the accounts and my prayer is that the leadership recognise these issues and will really dare to stand corrected.
On Fear of Cult culture and Practices, I share the same concern with you. I have raised this on the CU blog citing the cultist Jim Jones but the comment was deleted.
May God give the BOD the strength to correct whatever is wrong without fear or favour.
Can I beg, plead, and request with all my fellow brothers and sisters here, who supports Truth, Transparencies and Good Governance, to witheld any shouting, screaming, or pass any harsh and disrespectful remarks to the church leadership during the upcoming AGM in a few weeks time?
Let's show to them, that we are more Christlike.
Also, the feedback I got was, some of the members are expecting us to act like uncivilised barbarians and pass off bad remarks about us. But we are not!! We are far from it! If anything, the BOD and SP should behave better than to be rude to the members.
So, here are some guidelines/tips that I can come up with.
1. Greet with "Good evening Mr Chairman", or "God guide me as I bring up a point".
2. Bite your own tongue if your blood is boiling because or the rudeness of the chairman. Being rude does not reflect the fruit of the Spirit. Let the church see the true colours of the chairman and BOD that night!
3. We learn from Rainbow Karen, aka Simple Housewife, to be gentle, and speak humbly before the congregation. After all, we are presenting our point to the members of His body and He is present! No need to twist words because His Presence is enough to cause all dross to surface.
4. Agree by the house rules, no matter how irrational they are. See, Pakatan Rakyat played with BN's house rules, but see, in the end, it was BN themselves who got trapped in their own house rules. Hey, there's a parallel here and God is saying something!
5. When SP said, "I did not say that", simply offer a brotherly smile and say, "oh may God bless you for your short term memory!". That's enough for the BODY of Christ to take note of his true behaviour! Action speaks louder than words.
6. End your question with, "IF, IF, IF I have said anything that offend you Mr Chairman, please forgive me". Hey, we learn from our leaders!
7. If the BOD or the chairman brings up a point that is untrue, do not shout, do not scream. Simply walk to the mic in herds, queue, and let them see, we are very united! And we have a point, and we abide by their house rules!
8. To all Associate members, do not fret. If you have a point to bring up, just queue up. Its PERFECTLY OKAY to queue. We show them that we abide by their rules, and we are more civilised than they are. After all, they are the leader and they should set an example for us!
9. It will be good if the points are written down to avoid the chairman from cutting our mic off. That is blatantly rude, but nevermind, we show them that our cause is still fruitful despite them choking our necks and denying us our rights to speak!
lastly,
10. We can humble them to the very core, if we all kneel during communion/worship that night. I think it has come to a point where we really plead God to do something fast and tangible for us. I am unhappy that CC is such an egoistic church. But there is a group of people who are begging and sincerely interceding for a breakthrough in our leadership.
Care if any of you join me? I think collectively, before the AGM, during communion or worship, we just go down on our knees and plead God. Then, our brothers and sisters who are the "silent majority" will see that the fight for our cause is real.
Maybe some of you disagree with me. Its alright. But I am making a point here. It is time Calvary goes down on her knees during worship services when we need His presence.
Let's begin with us!
Dear "Guided by God, Led by God, May God Only Judge Me"
Thank you for your kind reference to me and the Rainbows that God has shown me. I believe that you are speaking by the guidance of the Holy Spirit.
I actually have another Rainbow experience while sending my children to school at about 7am this morning. I will send my testimony together with photos of the beautiful Rainbow I saw and took photos of, to share with you all.
The message I got from seeing the Rainbow today is, when we are in the "valley" situation, God sends a Rainbow to confirm His Promises to us. Yes, many of us are abit confused, perplexed and discouraged by all that is happening in our beloved church today BUT we have a GOOD GOD who constantly paints beautiful pictures for us to see when our ears find it difficult to hear His voice when we are overwhelmed by trouble.
While it may be said that SP & his family have given a big part of their lives to build Calvary Church, many of us ordinary church members can also boldly declare that we gave of our best years in life to God too, to help build the church and to top it, we did it all for free as our living sacrifice to our Lord Jesus Christ who first gave to us all freely.
So Be Encouraged for His Promises Are True Everyday and in Every Situation we find ourselves in. God bless.
Yes, I do agree totally.
Lets us show them in the AGM that we are not what they think we are. Dont let them succeed in what they have been telling people of what they think we are.
Dont let them succeed in irritating us or trying to upset us to lose our cool.
As the young people always say, CHILL.
Lets be firm and not waver. Lets not behave unruly.
Let us be ourselves.
some PG supporters state that the meetings were useful etc etc. but my question is, if the purpose of the leadership is truly to explain the 'facts' to us members, why is it that many of us members were not even called for the meetings?
double standards,
You could be very well informed of the facts, thats probably the only reason you were not invited. I believe if you want to attend, the church leaders would welcome you. Were you told that you cannot attend the meetings?
Yes, I agree with "Let Us Be Ourselves".
Let's remain cool & not show we're affected by all their ceramahs. Fact is most members who have attended the meetings are not impressed. They think we are ignorant lot & don't know the real story. We shld keep cool & quiet & surprise them at AGM.
Agree with a fellow blogger who wrote abt the perception of cult practices, past and present practices provide some clue and evidence in support.
Just rewind to typical performances of unabashed acts of support for PG(the chairman) at past annual and special meetings. I have to emphasise that the same few associate pastors, deacons and members would weep while telling-off church members for raising a point on legitimate church governance issue.
Such ugly and irresponsible demonstration of crying and defending against legitimate questions raised on matters of church adminstration is a reflection of the poor quality and control of meeting chairmanship, leadership and discipleship.
I reckon it is now more difficult for the regular "performers" to attempt such weeping acts as the part-takers would make a fool of themselves post-revelation of a very long listing of wrong-doings and bad financial management of church resources.
Be calm, stay cool and not be provoked during this coming AGM.
to the blog adminstrator, please post at both columns if you do approve
To Anon 1.01 at 12.57
Nobody said we could not attend the meetings but we need to be invited. They are calling specific people on the phone.
If you are not invited, try poping in at CC when they are holding the meetings and see if you can get in. Let us know the result. If you are a Datuk somebody you could be shown your seat by the Ass.Ps.
Hi Anon 1.01, nobody told me that I cannot attend but yet nobody called me up to attend. And I am not even a TTG member, so why should they assume that I know the facts very well? Only reason I can think of is because I am a TTG supporter. I do not even know what time are the meetings, so you can't expect me just to try my 'luck' and head to church hoping that they will allow me to attend the meetings right? Why can't they call me up for the meetings since I am a member?
I am compelled to write my first posting in CT.
My wife got a personal call from an Assc Pastor today inviting her to attend the closed door meeting session? My wife asked and was told that I too will be invited to attend a different closed door session by another Assc Pastor separately - no calls yet though? I really cannot understand this? Why can't my wife and I attend the session together? Why separate the wife from the husband? Has CC stop recognizing us "together"?
CC is getting stranger by the day and minute? Why and what does the pastors & BOD hope to achieve by the separate husband & wife sessions?
I am absolutely perplexed? When is all these rubbish and politics going to stop?
I am being questioned by certain people I know in the marketplace 'what's happening to CC?'. Even my non Christian bro-in-law knows of this blog through his friends; he mocks my faith?
I am at loss even to explain to my children why Christian pastors, BOD and adults behave in such a manner?
I am stupefied by the actions of my pastors & BOD? Is transparency, open dialogue & accountabilty such impossible words? Spellbound??? Is these all about US or him? .....??? or HIM?
I am shocked that church leaders and people I thought I know well over 20+ years and respect can continue to scheme, tell lies and act in such unforgiving manner?
When is godly sanity going to prevail? How can we even gather together to worship Him?
I am so ashamed of my faith today?
I am so ashamed of all of these so called charades?
I am so ashamed to even be called a Christian today?
Can we still even trust each other again after all these?
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