At the recent AGM of Calvary Church (CC), Deacon David Peter presented a motion to amend the Church Constitution to include “a new dispute resolution” clause.
The proposed clause to be included in the Constitution will be known as Rule XVI and basically sets out the procedures on resolving disputes in the Church. The new rule will “make it mandatory for any unhappy member to abide by the stated procedures, instead of subjecting the Church to a very public court process.”
Although David Peter proudly proclaimed at the AGM that the CC Constitution is the “most advanced Constitution among all the AOG churches in Malaysia”, nevertheless, he admits in the preamble in the motion that the Constitution currently does not have a satisfactory dispute resolution provision. So much for his proclamation of the church having the most advanced Constitution!
Or perhaps what he meant was that the CC Constitution is the most advanced in terms of concentrating total autocratic power in the Senior Pastor whilst paying lip-service to being a congregational church?
Or maybe, the most advanced in making it impossible for members to initiate any change to improve transparency and accountability in the church and by the church leadership?
It is certainly the most advanced in ensuring that the Senior Pastor cannot be removed by any means and the most advanced in denying the fundamentals rights of members to voice their opinions or to question the leadership.
Click on the attachments at the end of the Article to read David’s letter and the motion.
However, by presenting the amendment to the Constitution, indirectly Senior Pastor Prince Guneratnam (PG) and the Board of Deacons are actually acknowledging that the TTG (Truth, Transparency and Governance) Group’s process in their attempt to resolve the ongoing church crisis was correct and scriptural.
The entire process of negotiation, mediation and arbitration were proposed and attempted by the TTG on many occasions but all efforts failed due to the recalcitrance and defiance of PG.
The proposed dispute resolution process and the TTG’s various attempts to resolve the conflict are set out below:-
Proposed CC Conflict Resolution Process | TTG’s Efforts to Resolve Conflict (6 Separate Attempts at different times identified as 1 to 6 below. These attempts are numbered in chronological order of time) |
Negotiation: Parties in conflict to write to each other and meet up to try to resolve the issue in conflict. | 1. Members of the TTG individually and/or collectively wrote numerous letters and petitions to the Board of Deacons to review a number of issues in contention including the extended ministries and the severely-flawed constitution. They received either no replies or downright meaningless response to their letters and petitions. A number of the TTG members did individually and corporately meet up with the Deacons and Pastors at various times but nothing was accomplished. All the TTG’s negotiation efforts were simply disregarded and ignored by PG and the Board. |
5. After failure of Steps 3 and 4 by NECF, PG’s lawyer, KK Wong, also tried for out-of-court settlement. PG’s lawyer requested the Plaintiffs (7 TTG members) to submit a proposal for an out of court settlement to PG and the deacons. The Plaintiffs complied. After sitting on the Plaintiffs’s proposal for almost two months, they rejected the proposal without any willingness to negotiate at all. PG’s slap in the face for KK Wong’s effort probably was the reason why the lawyer withdrew from representing PG and the deacons.. | |
Mediation: If parties fail to resolve the issue through negotiation, then either party can initiate mediation. Mediator will be appointed by either the General Superintendent or Assistant General Superintendent of the AOG Malaysia. | 2. TTG members agreed to the mediation attempt by a prominent ex-Calvarite and the AOG General Superintendent as co-chairmen. Two days before the pre-agreed scheduled meeting, PG chickened out and informed the co-chairmen that the date was “not convenient”. The prominent ex-Calvarite gave up in disappointment especially since he had purposely rushed back from an overseas event for the meeting. (This ex-Calvarite who was an ordinary member was then subsequently demoted to an associate member by PG. He has now left CC and moved to another church) To Read CT post click “PG Chickens Out” |
3. NECF picked up from step 2 and tried to restart the mediation process (after waiting many months in vain for AOG to step in). The Plaintiffs agreed and supported NECF’s effort. PG did not respond to NECF’s attempts and the mediation failed. | |
6. Plaintiffs made one last attempt at out-of-court settlement and initiated a “court-assisted mediation” with a proposal to drop the entire Originating Summons with only one request which is that the Constitution be reviewed by an independent committee made up of the two sets of lawyers representing the Plaintiffs and PG PG and the Board of deacons, who had agreed to this court-assisted mediation initiative by the Plaintiffs, however, rejected this one simple request and preferred the matter to be tried in court. To Read CT post click “PG Chickens Out Again” | |
Arbitration: If mediation fails then either party can initiate arbitration. Each party to appoint an arbitrator. The two appointed arbitrators will then appoint a third arbitrator. If the two arbitrators cannot agree on the third arbitrator, then the GS or AGS of AOG shall appoint the third arbitrator. Decision of arbitrators final and binding. | 4. After NECF’s mediation attempts (step 3) failed, Plaintiffs agreed that NECF initiate Christian arbitration. Plaintiffs offered to withdraw the Originating Summons if the issues can be placed before an arbitration panel of Christian senior lawyers and/or ex-judges nominated by NECF acceptable to both parties. PG informed NECF that he was not agreeable to mediation or Christian arbitration. NECF gave up. To Read CT post click “PG says No to Christian Arbitration” |
After more than 2 years, the Constitution Review Committee has only managed to come out with this one proposed change in the Constitution. And this proposed change is not even addressing the core issues of the total lack of accountability and transparency and the abuse of power by PG and his Deacons, which were the primary causes of the crisis in Calvary Church.
The joke of it is that the proposed procedures in dispute settlement as highlighted above is something PG and his deacons do not subscribe to, anyway.
The purpose appears to be more of an attempt to muzzle the unhappy members and disallow them to refer Church disputes to external parties rather than a genuine objective of wanting to resolve Church issues amicably.
Anyhow, the members at the AGM approved the adoption of the amendment to the Constitution and it is understood that the Church has submitted the same to the AOG Malaysia for their endorsement.
It should be highlighted here that the approval and adoption of this Proposed Amendment to the Constitution may be invalidated, if challenged in Court due to the breach of the Rules and Procedures set out in the Constitution governing such motions. The breaches are:-
1. Rule IX (6) (c) requires that such motion must bear the full name and address of the proposer and seconder and duly signed by them.
If you look at the letter below from David Peter and the motion, there are no details and no signatures of the Proposer and Seconder. David Peter submitted the motion to the Board of Deacons but he did not specify if he was the Proposer or if he was merely submitting a motion he has received from someone else.
2. Rule IX (6) (d) requires that the Secretary of the Board of Deacons distribute the motion to all members at least 14 days before the AGM.
This was not done. A copy of the motion was slotted into the Annual Report, which was not mailed to the members but was required to be personally collected by the members prior to the AGM. Since not all members collected their Annual Report, many attended the AGM with no knowledge of the proposed motion. The onus is on the Secretary to prove the distribution of the motion to all members at least 14 days before the AGM.
The Proposed Amendment is also not well thought out. It does not spell out what the aggrieved member can do if the Church, Pastor or leader or the AOG General Superintendent or Assistant General Superintendent refuse to cooperate and abide by the rules, that is, if they refuse to negotiate, refuse to mediate or refuse to join the arbitration. It is also not stated what happens if they abide by the procedures but refuses to abide by the decision of the arbitrators.
It is surprising that David Peter, as a lawyer, is unable to adequately advise his fellow Deacons on the above rules and draft a better crafted Amendment.
As the Chairman of the Constitution Review Committee, he should make it a priority and a matter of urgency to look into the areas of check and balances that any good Constitution must have.
He should look into provisions that will safeguard the interests of the members and prevent the unhealthy situation of a Senior Pastor having absolute power and control.
He should study some of the other Churches’ Constitutions where the spirit of love, justice and respect for the members are embodied, where the need for accountability and transparency is recognized and accepted.
There is no hope for Calvary Church if things do not change. Times have changed, people have changed. The cry for greater transparency, accountability and good governance is getting louder by the day. This is evident in our country and everywhere else. It is indeed “Bersih” time for Calvary Church. If the Board of Deacons do not start the clean-up in God’s House now, God Himself will do it !!
347 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 1 – 200 of 347 Newer› Newest»Acts 8: Simon the Sorcerer
Acts 8 tells us of the story of how Simon the sorcerer bewitched the people with his great powers of lies and persuasion and magical powers.
And verse 18 onwards tell us how Simon the sorcerer was dealt with by Peter the Apostle.
20 Peter answered Simon the sorcerer: “May your money perish with you, because you thought you could buy the gift of God with money! 21 YOU HAVE NO PART OR SHARE IN THIS MINISTRY, BECAUSE YOUR HEART IS NOT RIGHT BEFORE GOD. 22 Repent of this wickedness and pray to the Lord in the hope that he may forgive you for having such a thought in your heart. 23 For I see that you are full of bitterness and captive to sin.”
24 Then Simon answered, “Pray to the Lord for me so that nothing you have said may happen to me.”
LET THIS BE A WARNING to PG and his cronies – you better REPENT QUICKLY and seek the forgiveness of those 400+ members whom you have excommunicated and let them lay hands on you and your cronies.
Response to AOG pastor July 13, 2011 2:25 PM
I am so glad to see that an AOG pastor has commented so candidly. Indeed there are AOG pastors like you who realized that man, even a pastor, is a fallen creature. He needs to be protected against the tendency to fall into temptation through appropriate checks and balances built into the systems and structures. It is when a pastor believes he is infallible that he rejects the need for checks and balances. Unfortunately there are also many pastors who saw and idolized the lifestyle, the fame, the wealth and the status personified by PG and sought to be like him.
PG is an arrogant and vindictive man. After the attemped mediation by the prominent ex-Calvarite, he was demoted to an associate member. He told the STAR reporter that his door is always open. A number of attempts to settle the matter amicably had been ignored or rejected by PG. Whose door is always? Is this one of his sick jokes!
I almost dropped off my chair when I read that David Dev Peter, Chair, Constitution Review Committee, had failed to follow the procedure as spelt out in the Constitution for for the motion. David Peter, a "academically" qualified solicitor is making a fool of himself not knowing the Constitution thoroughly.
Don't lose sleep over it. The habitual twisting PG would probably say that this rule does not apply to the Review Committee, as he had made known before that the Staff Handbook does not apply to him. PG is master twister when it is necessary make conditions to suit him.
Seated at the back during the AGM, it was possible to have a bird's eye-view of the proceedings. There were only a few who did not support David Peter's motion. Then the Gestapo RY was making a beeline to these members. Certainly this smiling tiger's motive was to intimidate these members "like I know who you are".
Before this Susan who by nature was a gentle lady having spend much time with children turned out to be a female Gestapo.
With the motion by David Peter accepted and also the vast powers vested in PG and the Deacons, Calvary Church is akin to a Police State.
In a Police State:
Fear become a by-word for those who did not support PG - RY's action during the AGM. The wrong comments overheard by his henchmen could have serious consequences - e.g. demoted to Assoc. member or axed.
In CC the rule is if said nothing, no harm will come to you. If you have doubts about the way the church is going, you kept them to yourself, - pay the price.
Liza as shouted at, sic switched off and attempt to evict her.
David Peter's motion effectively makes the activities in CC are free from review by courts of law. This meant that PG and his henchmen become a law unto themselves.
Democracy in CC is truly dead and buried.
Dear Church,
While this proposed change in constitution may be "hailed" as something as "per the scriptures" which rightly, TTG had already been applying as in the current ongoing saga in CC,it may be "discerning" that in the future it may also possibly not be "applied" in terms of transparency or in the revelation of such circumstances and the ensuing compliance thereon even with the amended constitution in place.
In a nutshell, going forward, any future change in constitution terms of standard operating procedures for handling disputes which may be "perceived as draconian" or "real at heart" , is something "Not Advisable" in view of PAST non compliance of scriptural/biblical procedures already in place for 2 thousand years of Christian history as per the New Testament of Jesus Christ.
It is important that a more compelling and broader tribunal consisting mainly local respected born again Christians in society (who in any case are of the church of Jesus Christ irrespective of Earth church institutions), be necessary for the discerning and arriving of answers/godly "judgements", to similar disputes in future.
METHUsaleh V..
OBSERVATIONS ON :
The purpose appears to be more of an attempt to muzzle the unhappy members and disallow them to refer Church disputes to external parties rather than a genuine objective of wanting to resolve Church issues amicably.
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I tell you SP is up to his monkey tricks again.Why would members want to refer disputes to outside parties? Face the facts!!!Its because the leadership has gone deaf and abusive and cant hear God's voice anymore.The case with Eli-On the day God called out to young Samuel- it meant one other sad truth-Eli's ability to hear God's voice was over!!!
The Constitution needs to be amended on the procedures required to remove backslidden Senior Pastors.Does CC's constitution say anything about that?Why erode members rights even further?
There is no way this high flying fraud will be stepping down anytime soon.Where else can he jet-set the world and can he get a salary and perks, love offerings as easy as this? Just look at the property and the fancy suits and shoes he has amassed.Need I say more?
I think his act of breaking an abaster flask before the crowd as an act of sacrifice was a show in depravity. I am rather surprised that Hollywood or Bollywood has not discovered him yet.Any fraud is possible in this "Bolehland" we call Malaysia.Calvaryland is a classic example.
If he were a real pastor,the first thing he would have done would have to seek out Liza hug her and and say" I have sinned against heaven and before thee.. I am no longer worthy to be called your Pastor and should not have humiliated you before others"
But alas,these AOG quacks,phonies and downright frauds cannot understand such language and spirit.They have been baptized with a religious spirit and such are their works.
CC is on the downward trail.I am not concerned about SP & these rebrobates, but only for his dumb sheep who are still in his grip.Just imagine,if these sheep had been under Rev. Jim Jones pastoral care- I think they would have obeyed also when this "Rev Jim Jones" - commanded the church to drink poison- and they humbly obeyed.
Such is the fate of all those who dont question their pastors and who sit meekly at their feet.
IGNORE THIS ADVICE TO YOUR OWN PERIL.
"HONEY- LET'S GO TO THE CIRCUS SUNDAY EVENING'
DAD: WHY GO THERE SINCE ONE IS ALREADY GOING ON AT CC?
"...as he had made known before that the Staff Handbook does not apply to him.
...................................
He said what?? Ha..Ha...Ha...HoH..Hoh...Hoh....
Can someone get this joker and phony off the stage?
Two days before the pre-agreed scheduled meeting, PG chickened out and informed the co-chairmen that the date was “not convenient”. The prominent ex-Calvarite gave up in disappointment especially since he had purposely rushed back from an overseas event for the meeting. (This ex-Calvarite who was an ordinary member was then subsequently demoted to an associate member by PG. He has now left CC and moved to another church)
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I believe the above act of cancelling the meeting at the last moment was a deliberate act on the part of SP-maybe wanted to teach the brother a lesson. Imagine rushing back from overseas to meet this reprobate SP- and the meeting is not on.Imagine the frustration.
I tell you this man has a disease in his heart.He has lost the pastors heart and is backslidden. All that we see now is a religious AOG demon strutting about the stage.
And now he is altering the constitution again- of course - its in his favour.
This man has gone very far in his religious career- more than the rest.No doubt his secret sins will die with him.
Its just not him alone- generally the AOG are like that- they like to be greeted as Rabbis in the marketplace and eat their bread by preaching protestant theology to the church- and yet they can be devious - because they believe they are, as one writer put it, the "special class' in Gods Kingdom.
These are the men like salt which has lost its saltiness-to be thrown out and fit for the dunghill!!
DONT LEAVE YOUR BRAINS ON THE TABLE WHEN THESE REVS ARE TALKING WITH YOU.THEY ARE SUBTLE AND DANGEROUS/.
Rev.3
[1] And unto the angel of the church in CC write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest,and art dead.
[2] Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for the complex you are trying to build is ridiculous before God.
[3] Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
[4] Thou hast a few names even in CC which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.
[5] He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
[6] He that hath an ear,let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the idiots CC.
As i have mentioned again, David Peter have to say is most advance since he is the lapdog for SP.
But i believed is MOST ADVANCE IN MANIPULATING THE TRUTH AND TRANSPARENCY. NO ONE EVER EVER THOUGHT OF IT EXCEPT THE SP HIMSELF.
Fr CT @ July 19, 2011 4:34 PM
Two days before the pre-agreed scheduled meeting, PG chickened out and informed the co-chairmen that the date was “not convenient”.
.....................................
You surprised that SP pulled the above stunt?This what happens when Senior Pastors are the main power figures.They tend to forget that they got the money and power by fleecing the church faithfuls.SP did not chicken out.It was a deliberate act to frustrate those who ask him accountability.
We no longer have a pastor with the morals to keep appointments and dates. Right now what we have is a diseased monkey causing problems within the church using lawyers and twisting the Church constitution. I do hope that the church stand up against this man who's showing that he cannot be "touched" and give him & family the layman's humble boots.
He is just hiding behind a series of titles. There is nothing in the Bible to validate any of his worldly titles.He believes he is a somebody now - able to cancel out important dates and no one has the clout to question him.
All other AOG churches take note. Don't create a pastor with power.Re-check the church constitution.Pastors these days want power - they don't desire servanthood.This is the spirit behind the Protestant movement.
True- they are good with the bible but the majority are ruled by the spirit of this world -and are peddlars of Gods Word for the money,prestige and the power walking about in craftiness and putting up very big buildings and describing it as the church. And the answer is the same"God told me to build it!!" Never mind if they lead the congregation into enormous debt.
All AOG churches need a strong Board- who are not selected by the Pastor.Pastors must not be allowed to have a say in church finances. The members have a right to vote and appoint the leaders.This is to ensure that the Pastor does not surround himself with the "Yes, Sir" weak believers who are easily found in any church and start manipulating.
Through the CC crisis,Gods people have learnt many lessons-so I praise God for that. Not for the crisis at CC but the invaluable lessons this crisis has taught many of us.
Lets stand together against these worldly preachers.
2 Corinthians 2:17
For we are not as many, peddlers of Gods Word: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ.
SP & FAMILY- YOU HAVE MADE ENOUGH MONEY FROM THE CHURCH.HOW MUCH IS ENOUGH FOR YOU? NOW PACK YOUR BAGS AND GO FULFILL YOUR CALLING AS AN EVANGELIST.YOU HAVE BECOME A NUISANCE IN THE BODY OF CHRIST.COME ON MAN- JUST GO!!GO!!GO!!
REFLECTIONS ON GENESIS
¶ And SP talked with CC- his brethren: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that SP rose up against the 400 brethren, and axed them.
9 And the LORD said unto SP, Where are the 400? And SP said,"Whats the matter with you? I know not: Am I my brother's keeper?I am busy with building a super complex- can't you see? Are you blind?
10 And he said,What hast thou done? The voice of thy brother's wounds and grief crieth unto me from their prayers.
11 And now art thou cursed in KL when I expose you and they know who you really are.
12 When thou tillest the ground, it shall not henceforth yield unto thee her strength; a conman and a swindler shalt thou be in the earth.
13 And SP said unto the LORD, My punishment is greater than I can bear.
14 Behold, thou hast exposed me for the phony that I am; and from thy face shall I be hid; and I shall be a conman and a swindler in the earth; and it shall come to pass, that every one that findeth me shall avoid me.Why God did you do it?
15 And the LORD said unto him, "WELL- BROUGHT THIS ON YOURSELF-YOU IDIOT!!!"
MY TEH TARIK PASTOR & I
Daily He cometh to our table,
And though uninvited,joineth us often for tea
And very soon churns out the posion
and passeth on scandalous tales- all for free.
He telleth us of the latest scandals & downfalls
of a few Reverends in town
And whisphers to us almost everyday
that there are still many tales soon to come around.
But not once did he consider,
that we consider him as an Ou-Siau pastor
And an incurable gossip monger
anywhere you can find in town.
So if you are stumbled by your satan tongue pastor,
and see spots in his character,
I hope you will find some comfort,
After reading "My Teh Tarik Pastor & I"
Grace & Peace be to all out there, lovely people!!God bless you all.Lets pray to the Lord of the Harvest to send forth labourers into His harvest.
PG going global now?
http://www.pentecostalworldfellowship.org/
Dr. Prince Guneratnam was elected as Chairman of the Pentecostal World Fellowship on 24th August 2010.
No wonder - locals' NECF, AOG what ever in Malaysia are ignore...to his standard to speak to him anymore....
Fr CT @ July 20, 2011 1:37 PM
RESPONSE TO TAH TARIK PASTOR:
--------------------------------
The poem sounds demeaning, but it seems to describe a pastor I know.Sometiems I attend his church. I was in my 20's when I got saved- now I am in my 40's.This pastor seems to be very critical about someone- a certain other minister who according to him did not finish bible school. He mentioned that 20 years ago- and still spreads it until this day to anyone who will listen.
More than anyone- should he not seek out and try to restore whoever has fallen short? You know,20 years is a long time- why can't he get over it? Even politicians forget and move on.But not this man-fact is,he is an incurable gossipmonger - sooner or later- the same thing will come out of his mouth-and will again bring out the other persons personal history. I ask this- isn't this a shameful conduct for a minister? For a man who stands up and preaches every Sunday-why is he running down another man for more than 2 decades?What is the problem here?
This is the disease among some AOG ministers.I beleieve he should go to Station of Life and get renewed in the spirit.I hear great things are happening there.
To all Christians out there- this blog has exposed some of the abuse,financial mismanagement,corruption and filth that is part of the AOG system right now.
To all AOG ministers I have to say this- although I wont dare to say it in your presence- DONT RUN DOWN ANYONE.STAY TRUE TO YOUR CALLING.
Q. Which is the greatest commandment?
A. Love God and love your neighbour as yourself- this is the greatest!! -JC_
Raegrsd to everyone out there.God bless
Our Prayers and thoughts are with TTG today. We want you to know that you are much loved and appreciated and respected by many of us here in the secular world.
To all critiques of this blog- we say this-since when did asking for a proper accounting sheet from the church become wrong? Fooling around with the accounts is a part of the secular world- but must not be found in the church.
MOst AOG pastors seem to be placed at the top of the church surrounded by their worshippers. Let the cleansing begin from here. All churches need a proper constitution- but if the Power centers arond the Pastor- as is the case with SP-then something is wrong and must be addressed.
God bless you all.Be a part of Gods people- be wary of religious systems.
Has SP downgraded his car so that he can give sacrificially to the CCC building? Has he started eating chap-faan like the rest of us so that he can give the extra to the CCC?
Its no more a mission minded church- its a mega superstore church.
How can even think of spending so much money on a building? CC sekarang adalah kumpulan orang2 Bodoh!!!
It appears this 'man' PG is after worldwide fame by seeking for more credentials & titles. He wants to be in the forefront, to be seen as a top & popular leader. However these are often the "traits"&"characteristics"of a false prophet(preacher),like those famous tele-evangelists who would compromise & willingly forsake biblical principles to achieve fame & fortune. PG surely is a false preacher 'extra ordinaire' and CC is a false church with false brethen(followers).
I thank God this blog is exposing Pastors unethical practices.Although it griefs me that such things are written, still I think it has become necessary.For once- the Pastors cannot control the many voices in the blog here with their "Submission to their authoprity" Or " Under whose covering? bullshit" Remember pastor- don't get angry.
Ask this question-why do Christians choose to come here and talk? What is the reason this blog came into existence? This is not a political blog.Christans for the first time have found a public forum to talk about their experiences in their own churches.Me and my colleagues are following this blog closely.
Peace & Blessing to all.
Is PG the founder of CC? NO!
CC was started by the English speaking division of the Assembly of God Church in Jalan Sayor. Pastor Jones laid the foundation stone of CC at Damansara in 1968.
Is PG an employee of CC? YES!
After passing out from the Bible Institute Malaya, PG was pastoring in Klang and joined CC in 1972.
Is PG answerable to the Members? Yes
For many years (from what I have, 1993 to 2009), the Constitutional Authority And Appointments of the Organisation Chart read as follows:
Members: Full Constitutional powers of Church administrations are vested in a General Meeting of the Members.
Senior Pastor: Appointed by the Board of Deacons, ratified by members at a General meeting. However since 2009, the description of the Constitutional Authority and Appointments are conspicuously are missing.
Another example of twisting by PG.
Are employees subjected to conditions in the Staff hand Book? YES!
Technically, all employed staff without exception unless you are the founder or owner.
Can one man unilaterally and single-handedly amend the Constitution to benefit himself? NO!
It's time for members to open their eyes. Do not be like the AP's and Deacons who leaves their brains outside the door when meeting PG. To worship man is a cult.
referring to David Peter's new dispute resolution motion,under(b) mediation, it is stated as follows:
(ii) Unless otherwise agreed, the mediator shall be appointed by the General Superintendent or the Assistant General Superintendent of the Assemblies of God of Malaysia. The mediator must be a believer who is a member of an Assemblies of God church.
Will the GS, AOG be neutral when performing his job? Debatable and very subjective. PG, the GS Emeritus of AOG. PG is the current Chairman of Pentecostal World Fellowship and is organising the Pentecostal World Conference 2013 in Kuala Lumpur. Assisting PG is the current GS AOG, Malaysia. Brown-nose Ong Sek Leang is the Chairman, Host Committee, who will have to obey instructions given by PG and reports to him. So, can the GS AOG act impartially.
How about the Asst. GS? Recollect he was the chairman of an EGM and how he behaved when conducting the meeting. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Whatever way you put it, the bottom line is that it is a tool the church will use to silence and gag its members.
What Anonymous Jul. 18, 9:35pm said is true. Calvary Church has become a Police state.
Referring to Digest This July 21, 5:51pm, PG is technically a squatter in CC.
Why is he stubborn as a mule and hanging on for dear life in CC? He is running the church like his own private company. To quote him "the church gives you an opportunity....", Calvary Church gave him the opportunity to be what he is today - as he often claims "I know so-and-so worldwide."
CC was his platform. But today, sacking 400 members and behaving like a dictator, he has "kacang lupakan kulit".
David Yonggi Cho, founder of Yoido is more longer the senior pastor of the church.
Btw, David Cho has skeletons in the cupboard,too. Type in Google Search: "David Yonggi Cho scandals" if want to read more.
Nearer home, in Singapore Evangel Family Church's senior pastor is Dale Lim, son of founder Robert Lim and his wife Marion.
Recently Grace Assembly Church, Singapore, had its family camp in KL. One of its members had lunch with me and told me that it's senior pastor, David Lim will pass the baton to Calvin Lee in 2012.
Why is PG still hanging on? For the money? For fame? For the G dynasty?
In view of recent developments in the country, I think CC sorely needs a Bersih rally of its own. A rally for transparency, accountability and fairness.
Do not expect the country to change for the better if the church, a representative of God's people are not willing to change for its own good.
You can forget being an example for the non believers when even the believers do not have trust and faith in the leaders.
Fr CT @ July 21, 2011 3:03 AM
It is WITH GOOD INTENTIONS that as we are led by the Holy Spirit, we bring to the attention of all Christians ALL THE MALPRACTICES of these PENTECOSTAL PASTORS (so-called), with AOG churches prominent amongst them so that (a) they will amend their ways and put things right BEFORE GOD and (b) that church goers WILL NOT BE MISLED or HOOKWINKED by these pastors.
Definitely it is not our intention to incite or split any church but rather to see and ensure that AS CHRISTIANS we are attending churches that SPEAK and LIVE GOD’S WAYS.
Those unrighteous pastors CANNOT SAY we are “satanic” because every statement that was made in this blog are/can be SUPPORTED BY THE BIBLE in their PROPER CONTEXT. The bible verses quoted are used to COUNTER the accusations made by these pastors. That was what JESUS DID – quoting Scriptures against Satan in his encounter with Satan.
The TRUTH of GOD is FOR ALL TO SEE and KNOW and BELIEVE in HIM – there is NOTHING TO HIDE or to be ashamed of.
And lastly, CHRISTIANS ARE NOT GOVERNED BY MAN-MADE CHURCH CONSTITUTIONS but by THE WORD OF GOD (the Bible).
And lastly, CHRISTIANS ARE NOT GOVERNED BY MAN-MADE CHURCH CONSTITUTIONS but by THE WORD OF GOD (the Bible).
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Well said. Don't let these pastors make you feel guilty about this blog.They are experts at this game.Having a nice church constitution that protects their power instead of ensuring transparency.All churches must include in the constitution on the procedures to remove errant pastors.Note SP- he has not attempted to solve the CC crisis- instead what he is doing is to tamper the Constitution even further- so called protection of the church- what it means is this- it's to protect his power!!!He is trying to create a family dynasty.I say,CC should be brave and give him the boots right now.
God bless you all this weekend.May your worship and fellowship be most blessed. And all your families too.
What!!!The pastors are describing this blog as satanic?
Ha!!Ha! Ho!Ho Hee...Hee..ha..ha..
Show is over for these salaried & titled jokers!!Hee...heee....
To quote him "the church gives you an opportunity...."
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He said that? This proves that he believes that he owns the church.So who gave him the opportunity to become what he is today? Self made man?
Ladies and Gentlemen-Now introducing to you the Master of Pentecostal Jokers- SP!!!!
Ha..ha..ha..ha...ho..ho....
I ATTENDED A MOSQUE TODAY
I am a Christian but tend to visit other places of worship to learn. I attended a Mosque today (Friday) but had to sit in a place designated for enquirers. My Muslim friend sat beside me to make me feel welcome.
It started wit the Seruan Azan- call to prayer- and bowing down many times. I told my friend that my back was painful.
Then the preaching began-this is the only part that reminded me of a Pentecostal service.But there were no Amen shouts from the congregation.But I am returning to church this Sunday.
Maranatha- Jesus is descending soon!!!
This pastor seems to be very critical about someone- a certain other minister who according to him did not finish bible school. He mentioned that 20 years ago- and still spreads it until this day to anyone who will listen.
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WHY ARE YOU SITTING AROUND HIM? AND WHY HAS HE CHOSEN YOU TO TELL HIS STORY? MOVE AWAY FROM HIM IF YOU WANT TO WANT TO WORSHIP GOD WITH A CLEAR CONSCIENCE.PROBABLY HE IS STRUGGLING SOME HIDDEN ISSUES.TELL HIM YOU DON'T WANT TO HEAR IT AND HE WILL FIND OTHERS.THESE ARE THE UNCLEAN PASTORS WHO SIT IN MOSES SEAT. JESUS WARNED US ABOUT THESE RELIGIOUS DEMONS..
Why is he stubborn as a mule and hanging on for dear life in CC? He is running the church like his own private company. To quote him "the church gives you an opportunity....", Calvary Church gave him the opportunity to be what he is today - as he often claims "I know so-and-so worldwide."
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What else can he do or where else can he go? As an itinerant minister on the local scene- he get RM200 as a love offering- which means a month RM800. You think it is be sufficient for this lofty titled con?Maybe on the international stage he still needs home address- a covering. Is cc still prepared to this fraud a covering.
The unjust steward.Luke 16.
What is this I hear about you,hand in your accounts- you can no longer be my steward!!
What can I do- I am too old to dis and am too ashamed to beg!!
Ahhhhh!!! I know what I will do- fool around with the accounts even more......
CHURCH- SP HAS FALLEN.GUIDE HIM TO THE DOOR GENTLY .
You can forget being an example for the non believers when even the believers do not have trust and faith in the leaders.
..............................................i DONT THINK THE pENTECOSTAL mOVEMENT WITH ITS 101 DIVISIONS CAN EVER BE A BEACON OF LIGHT TO THE UNBELIEVERS. I TELL YOU THE, MUSLIMS,HINDUS AND THE BUDDHISTS ARE MORE UNITED THAN THE CHURCH. BITTER PILL TO SWALLOW.HAVE YOU OBSERVED THAT SP DISPPROVES ITS MEMBERS FROM VISITING OTHER CHURCHES? EVEN WHEN MORRIS CERULLO WAS IN TOWN, IT WAS NOT ENCOURAGED. FACE IT. ALL THESE FRAUDS ARE DEEPLY INSECURE AND SELFISH- ALWAYS AFRAID TO LOOSE THEIR SHEEP AND THEIR $$$.
MOVED ON
To the Assc.Pastors, Asst.Pastors & other pastors,you have been the most dissappointed lot. Do you you all hear it loud & clear from what Anonymous July 22,10.53am said, CHRISTIANS ARE NOT GOVERNED BY MAN-MADE CHURCH CONSTITUTIONS but by THE WORD OF GOD(the Bible). Do you serve God by hiding behind church constitutions which are not even biblical based or by EVERY WORD THAT COMES OUT FROM THE MOUTH OF THE ALMIGHTY GOD?
Its true, PENTECOSTAL PASTORS simply are not the true servants of God. I have knowned this about 7 yrs ago in Calvary Church and I left CC at that time. If there is any Pentecostal Pastors think otherwise and wanted to truly served God, then he must reject Pentecostalism and leave the AOG churches. I believe this is the authority of God if you want to truly serve HIM righteously.
Some may think that the corruption among the AOG pastors may be exaggerated, but through many feedback and my personal encounter with many AOG pastors really tells me that there is indeed something wrong with AOG pastors generally. Whether the rich PG or the poor pioneer pastor, there seem to be a greed for fortune and fame. Judge their speech and you will notice. Even small poor pastor nowadays claim that they want properties, benefit from church etc and portray lordship (not parentship) over the sheep with demanding authority. I think all these deteriorating quality seem among AOG pastors nowadays probably due to the ministry negligence and the world charaters influence among the AOG committee itself. This is alarming. It is both a social and a spiritual problem, but there is none who could correct it, other than God Himself. Afterall, who dare warn a pastor, let alone speak against him and risk being kick out of the church, labeled as heresy and satanic? The Chinese say, "Good son won't join army". Why? Because army at that time is so corrupted. Now, it is said, "Good pastor won't join AOG committee". Why? It is corrupted too. So those who have a feeling that something wrong with AOG board and pastors active in it; you are not alone. The evidents are there. No prejudice, just plain solid evidences. We can see for ourselves. Obvious.
FROM KEPONG & PUCHING GROUP
We are a Christian group and we used to attend AOG churches.Put together there are more than 80 of us together with our children. Ours is not a splinter group and we did not start our own church. Instead we fellowship in different houses for worship and fellowship and we dont want another titled pastor over us.We all left the AOG circle somewhere in the mid 90's and have not regretted our decision.We thank God for moving us in this direction.90% of our money goes to missions- no holding back any money under whatever excuse or reason.But thats between as and Christ & God.And certainly we will never use it on putting up another cement building and getting into debt.God has set us free from that bondage.
THE REASON FOR THIS LETTER
We follow this blog closely and we thank God for much darkness exposed here.We read the article about a certain AOG reprobate spreading tales about the so-called "didnt finish bible school crap". The brother fellowship's with us occassionally and the whole fellowship is very well acquainted with him.
After praying as a group- we felt that we should respond for the first time against this mischievious pastor.
May we say that this brother who "didn't finish bible school" has gone very far in the secular world,more than any of us imagined.
If indeed he is icapable of study, as pastors put it,how did he ever come this far in the secular world? The accusations have no basis. Its all lies and envy.
We were there for him since he left bible college.Over a period of 20 years he has become an inspiration to the young people in our fellowship for what he has become.
The AOG people are not known for restoring anyone but they are known for badmouthing those who have fall short.We did not find any AOG pastors going out to seek and to restore this bro. or any other fallen minister.But we did come across many who subtly ran him down. This is an indisputable fact in our fellowship's experience.Just ask your own pastor if he has restored any- and you get a blank look.They are just there for their salaries and the power to control other Christians by hiding behind a religious man made title.Their position is just not supported in the Scriptures.We as a fellowship believe that many are under demonic influences.
To all the AOG pastors who are still running down this dear brother and others- may we say this- we here believe that God has begun sifting His house. God is going to call to account all the spiritual abuses that has taken place in His Name.So repent before Gods begins shaking your own church.
Notice the "burning of chaff" and sifting at CC.No doubt it is God at work.God has used TTG to send a ripple across the land.And dear minister,if you don't repent it will he heading your way soon.
We will not be informing this bro. that he has been referred to in this blog.Incidentally,he is cycling somewhere in Europe right now- with another from our fellowship.
Kind regards- God bless your worship this Sabbath. All send their greetings to TTG and visitors. You are much loved, prayed for and appreciated.
The AOG ministers and UMNO Have got the same virus-power crazy and corrupted.It dosent matter to them that thousands can gather on the street in protest-they still carry can on like nothings happened.It's all about money and power-lah!! SP is proving that to us all of us right now.
Pentecostal Movement is wholly unbersih,because its leaders are unbersih.Like the Malay proverb- seperti haruan makan anak- typifies the AOG leadership.Swallow everything including your own-while you still can. Which AOG minister is talking about evagelizing the poor these days? Even the pioneer pastor is talking about purchasing pricey property-lah and handing out name cards titled ' Dr.Reverend' - probably purchased over he computer.
My Advice- LARI CEPAT!!! SYAITAN SUDAK MASUK GEREJA DARI PINTU BELAKANG!!!LARI...LARI...
Response to
Why? It is corrupted too. So those who have a feeling that something is wrong with AOG board and pastors active in it; you are not alone. The evidents are there. No prejudice, just plain solid evidences. We can see for ourselves. Obvious.
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Yes - we all can see it for ourselves. Something is wrong and they are trying to hoodwink us. Before an AP from CC left for Canada for further studies- he commented "I dont even have one friend from Calvary".
I asked him- What? after so many years ?It is the culture at CC.The leadership there is drawn only to those who have the money,money,money - same with other AOG churches.No point pretending at this stage.
The first step we need to take is to humble ourselves and ask Him to open our eyes to see our true spiritual state and acknowledge it. Let us be reminded,the key to unlock the destiny of CC lies in the hands of every believer who can change the spiritual atmosphere.
"If My people who are called by My Name ... humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and will heal their land" (2 Chron 7:14).
Every leader at CC is part of the ongoing fraud rightnow. Lets pray against this.
Repent and Be Ready
The Time is Near.
Amid meteors, asteroids, brown dwarfs and comets..
Behold, HE is Coming Soon!
MORNING STAR
Does anyone aware that SP's son Jim own a 2 storey house worth more than 1 Million Ringgit in Bangsar near Bangsar Shopping Centre? His wife, Amelia owns a big expensive car worth more than RM150K?
As a worker in church who does not have any qualifications can afford to own such expensive house and expensive car? With his monthly salary, can he afford to pay a few thousand ringgit in installment? He must be getting very high salary in order to qualify for housing loan!
Even with a University degree and working for the past 20+ years, I can't even afford to have a decent house. I am only staying in a apartment and a normal national car.
THE MONEY CHURCH
Money,Money,Money,
We always need more money,
Because ours is a money thirsty church.
AH...Ahhhh..AH...Ahhhhhhh(slow Piano music here)
All the things the pastor could do,
If he just had more money,money, money'
To build this super complex.
There is no need to witness to the poor,
How much money can they give to the church?
Do they have titles and names?
So why waste our time with them?(
( sad Piano music here again)
So give us the money,money,money,
But you have no right to ask where the money goes,
And no right to question the pastor,
Because the mighty constitution says so.(big drum beating in the background)
So its time again to ask for the money,money,money,
In this backslidden church.
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ALTAR CALL-(soft flute music in the background)
Those of you whom "god" has touched to give sacrificially,come to the altar right now- the leadership wants to pray for you...come...come...don't keep the holy spirit waiting at the altar...
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Ezekiel 34:- a message for CC leadership
9 therefore, O ye shepherds, hear the word of the LORD;
10 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against the shepherds; and I will require my flock at their hand, and cause them to cease from feeding the flock; neither shall the shepherds feed themselves any more; for I will deliver my flock from their mouth, that they may not be meat for them.
RESPONSE TO :
FROM KEPONG & PUCHING GROUP
...............................\ I I DONT THINK THESE AOG GUYS WILL STOP RUNNING THIS BRO.DOWN. THE LEOPARD CAN'T CHANGE ITS SPOTS.PROBABLY THEY WILL MENTION THIS BRO.TO THEIR CHILDREN BEFORE THEY MAKE THEIR EXIT TO THE NEXT WORLD. WHO KNOWS? MAYBE THEY WILL SPREAD IT THERE TOO TO THE DEMONS.
LET THE RENEWAL BEGIN HERE.SAY NO TO AOG WHOREMONGERING.LETS SAY YES TO CHRISTS RESTORATION AND HEALING.
We are a Christian group and we used to attend AOG churches.Put together there are more than 80 of us together with our children.
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That was really a bold move on your part.To walk away from pastors influence is not that easy.I guess you nust have some very experienced elders among you.Definitely your group is a role model.
PG is barbaric in his treatment accorded to sis Liza Low - ordering her to sit down without allowing her to speak, switching off the mic and attempting to evict her from the sanctuary. When proceedings is not flowing with his demands and to prevent members from knowing more, he will resort to this dictatorial action (This also happened during the EGM when Guynes was the chairman. During one of the "meet the people" session where the pastors met the members in divided groups, someone asked Ps David Seah why PG used hand signals to switch off the mic. David Seah is the best clown in town! He replied that PG was exercising his fingers.)
Then came the "enforcers" Susan Tan, Richard Yun and two others to evict Liza. Shame on you, the four of you! My respect to Liza for standing firm in the face of such adversity.
This brings me to the point. CC will be having this "Purposeful Anger" seminar. PG should be the first person to sign up for this seminar. As the CEO and seeing only dollar signs only, the RM80 fee can be waived for his benefit.
Btw, though Guynes had been one of the early pastors of CC and involved in the setting up of AOG, M'sia and the BCM, he has sold his principles when he received US10,000 and was not neutral and conducted the EGM unfairly and also condoned Freemasonry.
Today is the third Sunday where SK talked so much about Faith Promise.
He said "the church gives you an opportunity to participate in giving ....". He should say "You can give an opportunity to the church to take your hard-earned money to satisfy one-man's dream to build CCC"
I visitedbanother AOG church which also had Faith Promise. One Sunday, it was Faith Promise Sunday. The next week, the Senior Pastor briefly spoke about Faith Promise. Then he said "those who want to sign up can do so at the counter outside the sanctuary after the service. No stress to worshippers, no "this is July, so start giving your Faith Promise, no give so that the church can pay progress payment.
After the second Sunday, the subject of Faith Promise was hardly brought up by the Senior Pastor. Worshippers are really treated like human beings, there is no need to keep droning into them give, give and give every Sunday.
All these giving, giving and Faith Promise is a man created thing. Its not in the Bible and definitely not the gospel of Jesus Christ. SK you don't seemed to understand scripture, do you? A church that keeps on talking about giving and giving more money is a false church.
FAITH PROMISE – A False Teaching
I entirely agree with what Anon said on July 24, 2011 10:17 pm that “All these giving, giving and Faith Promise is a man created thing. Its not in the Bible and definitely not the gospel of Jesus Christ.”
It was also NOT PRACTISED during the Apostolic Era – where in the Book of Acts do we read of the Apostles asking the church to MAKE PROMISES purportedly to God to give money, money and money – NOTHING BUT MONEY.
Can’t the pastors think of something else? Oh, I forgot they need these Faith Promises to divert to their personal ministries and church members are not allowed to question where the money has gone – WHAT A BULLSHIT.
I would say ALL AOG churches are guilty of this. Definitely it is a FALSE TEACHING. It is a false doctrine that was passed down from generation to generation by WHAT WAS TAUGHT IN PENTECOSTAL bible colleges and pastors and thus has become AN OFFICIAL ANNUAL RITUAL.
During the Apostolic Era, the Apostles themselves were doing all the missionary work themselves – and they went to places WHERE THE GOSPEL has not been spread. UNLIKE AOG churches and alikes, their senior pastors, associate pastors relax in their comfortable senior executive armchairs and let others do this missionary work.
If they really have a heart for lost souls, they themselves SHOULD GO TO underdeveloped nations such as CONGO, KENYA, SOMALIA, IRAQ and IRAN. Instead they opt to go to America AS EVANGELISTS (where there are most Christians) so that they can make some fast buck and deceive the gullibles that they have done some great chivalrous world missions – ANOTHER BULLSHIT.
It makes me sick at their tricks and deceptions.
Titus
Chapter 1
SP & Gang,servants of god,and a Dr.Rev.Tan Sri Apostle,according to the obedience to the Pentecostal Movement,and the acknowledging of the truth-we are not after the money.
In hope of a super multi million dollar complex, which SP, who cannot lie,god promised to him In Damansara;
But now hath manifested his word through preaching faith promises & sacrificial givings,tithes and love offerings which is committed unto me according to my vision;
To CC members, mine children after the common delusion:may you believe god for more money, money,& money from god our butler who loves to give. Better still pray that our god will send down a money printing machine- which will save all the hassles of prayer.
For this cause left I thee to CC's members, that you should preach about CCC vision wherever you go,and collect faith promises, as I had appointed thee: Preach to them that our god will multiply it a hundredfold!!And if it does not happen- we can always say that it is due to some hidden sin.It always works- believe me!!
Further my son, if there is any opposition, note them carefully so that we can axe them later.These are the rebels who are resistant to my god given vision- and they are forever asking questions.
If there are still any who threathen to remove me,dont worry my son, I have already amended the constitution even further-and this time around the case will never be brought outside the church.These are the sore losers who don't know the power of a religious man made system.
And dont worry about any pastor meddling in our affairs- my name is powerful and they will keep their distance even if I lead the sheep to the slaughter.This is a fact I have proven.
And note particularly those who come in their Mercedes-they need special pastoral care.....
SO WHAT HAS HAPPENED TO OUR BELOVED CC!!!
Pray for discernment before giving anything- pray as a family- against deception.
My sheep hear My voice- Jesus our Lord.Blessed be His Name.
A Certain AOG pastor I knew as a friend suddenly put on a 'Spiritual Aura" after he was ordained as a Rev.and suddenly sounded very religious.
WHAT A LOAD OF BULLSHIT. THE WHOLE PUT ON WAS SO SICKENING!!!
I tell you,these guys are just so fake.
UNLIKE AOG churches and alikes, their senior pastors, associate pastors relax in their comfortable senior executive armchairs and let others do this missionary work.
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The above describes my pastor very well. Now and then he will not turn up for work,the reason? "Not feeling well"
He will send others to do all sorts of work- and he himself will be in his air-con office, supposedly praying for all of the gullibles.
Truth is- he is one lazy man-= just the look on his face will say all!!
Comment by anonymous on False teaching is just so true- these AOG quacks go to the USA, preach there and come back with some spectacular testimonies.One visitng pastor claimed that God had used him to open the eyes of the blind, another had got up from a wheelchair and that God had used him to cleanse a leper somewhere in Africa.Claims God has anointed him with a signs and wonders ministry. It was just so true- only thing- he did the signs and the congregation was wondering what was going on!!
Each time he visits our church- its the same old crap- altar call- someone brings out the RM9.90 cents blankets- and he prays and blows into their faces- whooshhh!!!!- and then they just faint. These are the only supposed miracles he did here.
I ask- are these biblical miracles? I think they are just deceived.Fact is- falling down happens in almost all charismatic religions. Shout Vel-Vel during Thaipusam and suddenly somebody faints.
I believe what we need right now are anointed teachers who can divide the Word of God.In my opinion we just have too many AOG quacks preachers who yell through their noses.
God save us in these last days.
I see this CT forum though it started its initial focus on CC and the lack of Truth, Transparency, Governance and Accountability by CC’s church leadership especially its SP and his cronies, it has now evolved into a mature Christian forum where matters of concern to Christians are mooted and discussed with boldness and without fear of their church leaders.
Topics like (a) malpractices by pastors, (b) mismanagement of church funds, (c) unrighteous acts of senior pastors, associate pastors, pastors and assistant pastors etc. (d) their rudeness to church members at AGMs and EGMs, (e) false prophecies, (f) false teachings, (g) sexual immorality of pastors (unbelievable), (h) warnings of God’s judgment on unrepentant pastors, etc. were all well covered.
It is a MIRROR that I myself as an ordinary Christian can see myself where the blemishes are and to take corrective steps to make things right in the eyes of God.
To the founders of CT, our heartfelt thanks for starting this blog.
To all CT readers and contributors, KEEP CT GOING by your continuous contribution of comments.
No doubt God’s hand is on CT. It has a mission to fulfill.
I read this on the blog. Sure SP and famliy do not own any businesses somewhere?
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Nigeria's pastors run multi-million dollar businesses which rival that of oil tycoons, a Nigerian blogger who has researched the issue has told the BBC.
Mfonobong Nsehe, who blogs for Forbes business magazine, says pastors own businesses from hotels to fast-food chains.
"Preaching is big business. It's almost as profitable as the oil business," he said.
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FAITH PROMISE and WHAT MISSIONARY MEANS
The church started in Jerusalem with Peter the chief spokesman.
Let us check the Bible (like the Bereans) and see the places beyond Jerusalem that Peter the Apostle himself went.
Acts 8:14 Peter and John were sent to SAMARIA
Acts 9:32, 39: Peter traveled ABOUT THE COUNTRY and visited LYDDA and then to JOPPA.
Then in Acts 10: Peter went to Caesarea to preach the gospel to the household of Cornelius and his close friends.
AND WHERE DOES CC’s PG and SK GO BEYOND KUALA LUMPUR for their missionary trips?
Did they ever go to the underdeveloped regions of Malaysia - Pahang, Trengganu, Kedah, Kelantan, Perlis and East Malaysia to do missionary work.
In Acts, Peter the apostle SET THE EXAMPLE.
HOW ABOUT PG or SK SETTING A GOOD EXAMPLE or do they prefer THE COMFORTS OF KUALA LUMPUR and AMERICA – NO SWEAT at all as everything is arranged for.
The thinking that CCC is also considered “a missionary work” where people from afar can come and hear the gospel and know Jesus.
WHAT RUBBISH IS THAT. He does not even know what missionary means. You have to go to nations where the Gospel has not gone and not asking people to come to you just because you have a super convention centre. JESUS and the APOSTLES WENT EVERYWHERE TO SPREAD THE GOSPEL and not holding rallies and healing crusades to attract the crowd to come to them.
No problem at all – There is the FAITH PROMISE – No need for Sps, Aps, etc. to go anywhere – just support with money and get the money from the church members. Make the members sign a Faith Promise Pledge and if they do not pay up or delay, remind them they have made a pledge to God – WHAT RUBBISH AGAIN.
THIS IS SUCH A FAR CRY from what I read in the Bible.
I could NOT HELP BUT CONCLUDE there is DEFINITELY SOMETHING WRONG SOMEWHERE with our present-day churches with their Faith Promise pledges.
To the founders of CT, our heartfelt thanks for starting this blog.
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I thank God for this blog too.We here learnt much and are still learning so much.I bet there are many pastors out there reading the contents of this blog rather nervously.Ha! Ha1. Cheerio!! Be Blessed.
Thanks for this blog.My pastor has disappeared from the teh tarik stall near our church.Seems to be busy in the office these days.
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When I was a young Christian, after Sunday services my Pastor used to send us out in the heat of the noon day for tracting- while he himself had to stay behind in air con office to pray.It was so hot but we did "for the Kingdom of heaven sake".
WHAT BULLSHIT!! WE WERE TAKEN IN!! BUT IT WAS A LEARNING EXPERIENCE.
There was once a mega church minded pastor,
Who dreamt that he was eating his shoes,
He woke up with a fright
In the middle of the night
And found that it was perfectly true!!
THEOPHILIUS
These AOG quacks won't go to dangerous places- but they will preach like they are prepared to go anywhere. Most of them have been to Europe, USA,N.Z. Australia and Singapore. Talk about the hard and demanding places and they will say,
" I wanted to go but the spirit of the Lord forbade me!!!"
WE must laugh inwardly everytime we hear this.
HYMS OF PRAISE
BLESSED PEOPLE- THE RINGGIT IS MINE
OR WHAT A FORTASTE OF RINGGIT DIVINE
ANGLES BRINGING ME,
BASKETS OF CASH
ECHOES OF HIS BLESSINGS
MORE RINGGIT MEANS MORE LOVE
THIS IS MY STORY
THIS IS MY SONG
ASKING FOR MORE MONEY
ALL THE DAY LONG
I AM GOING CRAZY
JUST DREAMING OF THE MONEY
AND I CANT SLEEP PEACEFULLY
BECAUSE THE RIVER HAS TURNED INTO A TRICKLE!!
TOTT
who is the prominent ex-calvarite? a Tan Sri?
Where in the Bible mention that God wants us to build Mega Churches? Can anyone enlighten me?
If there is no such Biblical reference, stop using God's name for that.
Last Sunday our Pastor made fun of TTG's blog.Described it as Korah's rebellion in the wilderness.According to him, the verdict of the Court was proof positive that God is behind AOG's leadership.Really- is that so?Fact is-the Board has more than once asked him for a proper accounting of church finances but to date nothing has been done.In spite of his high moral preaching,he was once sued by a bank related to credit card problems.A member from another church swore that he had seen our pastor in the casino-playing Tai-Sai.These AOG guys can preach- but they seem to have some kind of spirit controlling them.
God has warned against anyone adding or taking away or even distorting His written Word, the Bible. Revelation 22, V.18-19 says....
" I warned everyone who hears the words of prophecy of this Book. If anyone adds anything to them God will add to him the plaques described in this book. And if anyone takes words away from this Book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this Book."
Pentecostal pastors from the AOG had added, distorted and taken away God's written Word from His Book. They have made up, change and implemented their version of umbiblical doctrines not found in the Bible and then taught them to the church. This is what is wrong with Pentecostalism.
Since the dawn of history man has been trying to build the 'tallest building','tallest tower' or 'tallest structure' in the world. There seems to be much prestige in being home to the worlds tallest. So much in fact that this is a major issue on the political agenda of many countries. Many towers claim the title, and many cities quarrel about who is the winner.
When the tallest building in the world was put up in in KL-the other nations of the world immediately began to draw up plans for an even taller building.
Key in to Google to discover this competition.I have been up in Chrysler building--one of the tallest building in NY city - really awesome at the top. But when I came down, I saw many beggars, homeless straying about the street, teenage prostitutes a few blocks away, and further down in Greenich Village -the homosexual community.That is the reality.I think the spiritual atmosphere in our present day is heading in that direction.Great buildings, red carperts, great lightings and great music,great sermons by famous speakers- the spirit of this age is arriving like an incoming tide slowly.
The desire to build bigger has entered the church now.Now we have strange teachings within the church.There are no more messages on holiness or personal sanctification.Just give the money by faith and God will give more to you. That summarizes it.That seems to be the main message the AOG churns out these days. Just one decade ago-single mums were unheard of in the church. But with our big building did we grow spiritually? Many just sit through the sermons as a kind or ritual- and go home empty. Today we have Pastors who demand that we address them properly by their Rev.Titles or they get offended.
Which AOG minister does not desire to put a building these days? I tell you, these are the leeches in the body of Christ -They are high salaried,very eloquent and seat in powerful seats.If you dont "share the vision" then you are out booted out- to be crude.
Just take a drive around KL and PJ areas and you will find out how many out there are still building- millions of dollars involved.
And when persecution breaks out - as in Pakistan and Indonesia- these big churches become the main targets because they are so conspicuous. The 13th general election is around the corner- and chances are ruling party may be unseated. YOu think they are going to vacate seat peacefully? When SP was told to step down- he simply retorted by saying - The staff handbook does not apply to him!!Now that is a demonstration of power!!Spoken well like a Malaysian politician.
Christian - pray - DONT JOIN IN BUILDING ANOTHER "BIGGEST" CHURCH BUILDING.
Pray and be led by the Spirit. Maranatha!!! God guide you all.
OUR REGARDS TO TTG
RESPONSE TO :-
AND WHERE DOES CC’s PG and SK GO BEYOND KUALA LUMPUR for their missionary trips?
Did they ever go to the underdeveloped regions of Malaysia - Pahang, Trengganu, Kedah, Kelantan, Perlis and East Malaysia to do missionary work.
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Why would these AOG pastors want to go there?There is no money or big pulpits in those areas- certainly no fame.East Malaysia?? Most pastors no money so definitely out of the question. Face the facts lah- brother--mow cheen mow tak keng!!Ming pak mow??? soh chai!!!!
When the Apostle Paul was inspired to write his epistles,did he direct his epistles to any pastor let alone reverends? Come on- there was no such thing in the entire N.T.So where did these authority people come from?
They are the work of the Pentecostal Movement.Now these misguided jokers literally control the churches and sometimes abuse their authority.When Jesus died he set us free from the Judaism system.Now these preachers have set up another religious systemone of which is the AOG system.
Tribute from Andy Williams
Where do I begin
To tell the story of how deluded a pastor can be?
The mad love story that goes backeth to Babel's history
The ugly truth about the madness Babel brings to me
Where do I start ??
With her first hello
She gave a twisted meaning to this high calling of mine
There'll always be another delusion, time after time
Babel came into my life and made my living distorted
Babel fills my heart
This mega church fills my heart with very special dreams
With money promises, with a better fame .......
Tower of Babel fills my soul with so much expectation
That everywhere I preach faith pledges
With you my money, who could be lonely?
I reach for the money-but somehow its never enough
How long does it last
Can money be measured by the hours in a day
I have no answers now but this much I can say
I know I have ruined my reputation
But he told me God will bless me
And I know that Satan never lies!!
KORAH – An Example of an Insolent Leader
The story of Korah is found in Numbers Chapter 16
It is a SAD STORY with a TRAGIC ENDING.
Q: Why did God punish Korah?
It is not so much about rebellion but more about INSOLENCE.
Numbers 16:1 - INSOLENT
1 Korah son of Izhar, the son of Kohath, the son of Levi, and certain Reubenites—Dathan and Abiram, sons of Eliab, and On son of Peleth—BECAME INSOLENT and rose up against Moses. With them were 250 Israelite men, well-known community leaders who had been APPOINTED MEMBERS OF THE COUNCIL 3 They came as a group to oppose Moses ..
Numbers 16:32 – Korah’s Tragic End
and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed them and their households, and all those associated with Korah, together with their possessions.” Unquote
Little does CC’s pastor understand fully the spiritual meaning of this story – his thoughts were on the EXCOMMUNICATION of the 400+ Calvarites which he reckons was equated with Korah’s rebellion against God.
The key words which I have capitalized above are (1) Korah …. BECAME INSOLENT and (2) his cronies were the APPOINTED MEMBERS OF THE COUNCIL.
The meaning of INSOLENT and the Characteristics of an Insolent Person are:
INSOLENT:
Meaning: boldly rude or disrespectful; contemptuously impertinent
Insolent Characteristics:
Someone who is insolent has a bad attitude toward others. A person who is insolent often thinks he is better than others, and acts condescendingly towards those around him.
Little does PG realize when he preached on Korah, unknowingly he was talking about himself and his cronies. The meaning of INSOLENT and INSOLENT CHARACTERISTICS fits him perfectly and the Appointed Members of the Council refer to his cronies. It is because of their INSOLENT ATTITUDES, they adopted deceptive means to achieve their ends – thus they became REBELLIOUS TO THE WAYS OF GOD.
I sincerely hope the tragic ending of Korah and his cronies WILL NOT FALL upon PG and company. May God have mercy on them.
THE SPIRIT OF ‘PRIDE’ SO EVIDENT IN PG – An Insolent Man
Anyone who reads this blog (be he a believer or non-believer) will straightaway tell that the SPIRIT OF PRIDE is in this man with a string of religious and government official titles shepherding CC.
This spirit of pride and insolence was in LUCIFER (Satan the Devil) that caused him to REBEL AGAINST GOD for he wants to take over God’s throne. Satan thinks he knows better and can do better than God in all things.
I find one essential difference between PG and Satan – PG wants to even excel Satan. PG has already reached the top of the religious world being the Chairman of World Pentecostal Movement and he has already embarked on the task of building THE MOST COSTLY religious center in Malaysia to glorify himself and perpetuate his name.
This will make even Satan envious of him. Be careful, PG. Satan will be coming after you to destroy you.
I don’t know what is going to happen to you in the coming days/months or years. REPENT BEFORE IT IS TOO LATE.
SUNDAY'S SERMON BY MR. RICHARD YUN,
Noah obeyed without asking "Why?". There is a strong message here- Obey now and ask the "why" later!!
...................................
Twisting of Scriptures.
Noah preached just before an impending flood. But his life example has been used to raise money for CC.It appears that Noah's ark and obedience is made parallel to CC's leadership and faith pledges.
Noah built an ark
& SP is building CCC
Noah obeyed without asking why
So members must obey in giving TO BUILDING CCC without asking why.
CC has gone to the dogs.No point trying to salvage it.And no pint praying for these dumb sheep too.
A church deserves the pastor it gates.
ME & FAMILY HAVE RETURNED TO A SMALLER CHURCH.SORELY GRIEVED.
response to:-
FROM KEPONG & PUCHING GROUP-
..................................
We here in the office just read your write-up about the "didn't finish bible school crap".All of us here have heard the story before from the ever present AOG grapevine with its countless gossippers found mostly in cell groups and teh tarik stalls.He has been in our church quite a few times- makes bible stories come alive.Its a gifting from the Spirit.No doubt.And an amazing memory for Scriptures.Can read whole chunks without looking at the book.
About the AOG reprobates running him down-I don't think it will ever end.According to our sources,the minister was in Sabah recently- and he managed to spread it there too- including running down his one time assistant pastor.
To that AOG minister- if you are reading this-May we ask -Who are you to be judging or to condemning another? God did not send His Son to condemn the world- don't you read your Bible?
Further David wrote " Lord,if you would mark iniquities, who can stand in your sight?"Have you not read?
We do not believe God has called you into the ministry.Or maybe like SP-you have lost your calling.Many AOG ministers have strayed from their high calling.[Or given in to lust.What kind of a pastor would be sleeping around with a college kid?Just so shameful!] Just read the complaints of disappointed christians in this blog.You ministers can just throw out 400 worshippers and can still keep on preaching" Love your neighbour as yourself.What a load of bullshit!!!!
Do the right thing- step down and find yourself another job.
Many fond regards to the Kepong & Puchong Group.May you be blessed of the Lord and protect all of us from the demonized people disguised as ministers.
MARKETPLACE CHRISTIANS
ANOTHER MISPRESENTATION OF BIBLE
STORIES by Richard Yun
How long, O Lord, will we bear with this type of false teachings by the false teachers of CC.
This time around another crony of PG has come forth to show his TRUE COLOR as a false pastor and a false teacher by deliberately twisted the interpretation of the story of Noah - like what Anon posting July 28, 2011 12:59 PM said – all to coax members to pay up for the CCC project.
Obey first and ask later – WHAT NONSENSICAL TEACHING is that? As a believer, I will only obey when it is God who is speaking to me. If it is the voice of the devil, it is RY who will obey, not me. There will be those who will blindly follow the blind leaders.
We have open access to God directly nowadays and we do not need RY as an intermediate. And examining the Scriptures (like the Bereans), we are not convinced that the CCC project is from God. God does not need a mega spacecraft to tell the Gospel of Salvation through Jesus.
Noah’s ark was built to save lives from destruction, whereas Bukit Jalil’s spaceship is being built to send souls to hell because of the false doctrines and practices that are being taught by them.
How long, O Lord, will we bear with this type of false teachings by the false teachers of CC.
In support to Anony on "SUNDAY'S SERMON BY RICHARD YUN." This was what I meant when I commented earlier that Pentecostal pastors of AOG have & are able to change, distort & twisting or taking away what God had written in His Scriptures. So please, Richard Yun, beware & be very careful on how you handle the Word of God. Its a sin to misuse the Name of God.
CCC is a definitely a wrong cause and there are enough reasons & facts to prove and convinced that its not the visions or call of God. Whereas you all have nothing to prove except simply continue to say its the vision of God just to save you all from embarassment.
10 tahun dahulu, kita berdoa agar Tuhan selamatkan kita dari hasutan syaitan di dunia,
Sekarang ini kita kena berdoa dari menteri syaitan2 didalam gereja.
Apa Dah jadi?
PERANAKKAN
BURUNG KA'KA TUA
GIGI TINGGAL DUA
NENEK SUDAH TUA
AND 400 MEMBER SUDAH DITENDANG KELUAR!!
SEKARANG SYAITAN SUDAH GAGAH
MEMIMPIN ORANG DALAM GEREJA
KAKITANGAN PUN SAMA JUGA
SEMUA ADA PENYAKIT GILA!
Did Jesus say He need a mega church in order to preach to His people? Ask the Pastor to show you the page in the Bible.
Never trust pastor's vision if it is not biblical.
Repent and Be Ready
The Time is Near.
Nearing heavenly bodies just about hidden but there..
New Earthquakes,volcanic eruptions,hurricanes and battering rain/floods...
Behold, HE is Coming Soon!
MORNING STAR
CONFESSIONS OF AN INSOLENT MAN
Paul the Apostle CONFESSED in his epistle to Timothy he was an NSOLENT MAN but he obtained mercy when he accepted Jesus as his Lord and was forgiven.
1 Timothy 1:13 (NKJV): “although I was formerly a blasphemer, a persecutor, and AN INSOLENT MAN; but I obtained mercy because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.”
Q: What caused Paul (before his conversion) to be an insolent man?
Paul was a man full of pride and arrogance because he was a Pharisee (equivalent to our present-day senior pastors graduated from bible college, then later obtained a religious doctorate and “ordained” with a Reverend title), Paul was in cloud 99 thinking (a) that he knows the scriptures more than anyone else, (b) that he was very close to God and God often speaks to him and gave him visions because of his religious position and religious background, (c) that he was holier than the other guys and therefore no one can touch him and (d) that he was the only one who could order people around.
Paul did all these IGNORANTLY IN UNBELIEF.
But with our present-day senior pastors, THEY DID IT KNOWINGLY and believing they are doing these for the sake of the Gospel of Jesus.
What a pathetic state they are in. It is still not too late if they follow Paul’s example of admitting they were wrong, amend their ways.
Much as we are against their ungodly practices and insolent attitudes, but at one time they were also sincere in their beliefs of the Gospel. We do pray for them that they will stop pursuing wealth like the heathens do and (c) focus on feeding their church with spiritual food not garbage.
To these pastors, I say – Where is your faith in God. You know God will provide you in honest ways and not by dishonest, deceptive and unethical means.
almost every contributor here reeks of jealousy. too bad for you that you don't have influence and power.
FREEDOM FROM PERSECUTION BY OUR ENEMIES
Dear Brothers and Sisters in Christ, please do not despair during these difficult times. Draw renewed strength from the Bible, including the Book of Esther. Haman, son of Hammedatha, the Agagite tricked King Xerxes into issuing aa order "to destroy, kill and annihilate all the Jews - young nd old, women and little children - on a single day, the thiteenth day of the twelfth month, the month of Adar, and to plunder their goods" {Est 3:12).
And yet, we read on that God always watches over and helps save His people. Triumph of the Jews states - On tyhe thiteenth day of the twelfth month, the month of
adar, the edict comanded by the king was to be carried out. On this day the enemies of the jews had hoped to overpower them, but now the tables were turned and the Jews got the upper handover those who hated them (Est 9:1).
Haman and his ten sons were hanged from the gallows he himself prepared for Mordecai. Mordecai instead of being executed was instead greatly honored by King Xerxes, being promoted to be the number two in power and status, in the whole kingdom.
The day of pur, the day of massacre of the Jews, became a joyous occasion of celebration among the Jews - in honor of God's protection over them.
So let us not fall into the traps set by our enemies, belittling us and trying to brainwash us that we are helpless, hopeless, chained up, weaponless, waiting for them to wipe us out - but to strike out in defence, in righteous anger over our rights in life.
May the evil plans of s p (ass pee) always fail like that of wicked Haman. may s p too received just punishments for his accumulated sins against God, against the congregation, against fellow Chistians and others. May all s p's nights be filled with nightmares concerning his harsh treatment of others under his cruel rule. May every waking moment of all s p's days be surrounded with guilt over his sins. May his downfall come sooner. Amen.
SIGNS OF THE TIMES
Ever noticed that:
- more and more empty seats among the rows of pews are showing so obviously in CC ?
- the collection bags are less and less filled, looked lighter ?
- no public mention of CC Family Camp ?
- no accompanying video clips of CC Family Camp ? Are the church leader and organisers ashamed of the poor attendance this year ? Would any such video clips show the very small number of participants ?
- no mention of the number of faith pledges participants this time around ?
- how much "thinner" the stack of collected faith promise cards looked to the congregation ?
- how thick skinned s p must be to be "suggesting" that we may wish to revise our faith pledges amounts ? Ever thought we may be tempted to revised the amounts/figures DOWNWARDS, instead of upwards, s p ?
- how sour faced s p and his ps look nowadays ?
s p and his ps at chap fun / economy rice stalls or coffee shops, instead of posh hotels restaurants ? Maybe coming soon ?
pskum stopped shopping at Cold Storage instead of Giant ? Stopped eating Cold Storage butter while we opt for generic margarine ?
- there may be salary cuts and "retrenchments" among them ps ?
what happened to jerry and p*m ?
Signs of the times ? Hurrah, yippee yea...
More to come.
EVANGELISM 001
Even during the earlier years as unbelievers, we used to think missionary works involved travelling deep into remotely isolated communities. We thought missionary work involved living and understanding the lifestyles of hill/mountain tribes, jungle tribes or seafaring tribes, while trying to spread God's Word. Therefore, it came as a great shock that s p's (ass pee's) popularised version of missionary work means attending expensive ostentious oppulent exorbitant internationally organised conferences / conventions held in massive sparkling new mega structures, shaking hands, rubbing shoulders and tete a tete with "world class evangelists", while surrounded by materialistic trappings, in various capital cities all round the world - many thanks to his tutelage under his American "gurus' aka "taiko"s. We know this ass pee's concept is utterly wrong and not inspired by God. (Remember adage of "Monkey see, monkey do" ? Or "Do no evil, see no evil and hear no evil" ?)
Of course, we need not point out the obvious fact that all expenses (including plane tickets, hotel accomodations, meals, other travelling expenses, etc, etc, etc) incurred we strongly believe are and were sponsored, many sacrificially, compliments of church givings from the unwary untutored congregation. How low can you go ?
Recently, we were moved into action for God. Instead of being pew seat warmers, we started evangelising, approaching especially foreign visitors/tourists who looked lost in KL city, esp KL Sentral and BTS. With God's help, we progressed step by step, coming out of our shells, to reach others. We now know the meaning of the harvest being plentiful, workers being few. But the joy of being involved in the Mission is awesome and overwhelming. Thank God.
To Anon, July 29, 2011 11:16 AM.
You really think that there are people who will be jealous of a pastor's position? People may admire the position but will never be jealous of the pastor's "influence and power".
Reason for that :
1. God fearing individuals know that God given authority comes with great responsibility. People would rather head a large corporation than a church. That's why there are so few who will go to Bible School.
2. The kind of "influence and power" that shrouds PG's name now is one that nobody in their right mind would want to have. Yes he seems to be in control of CC but it is not because of his good reputation. He is using the mighty name of God. He is standing behind God's name and using God's name to frighten people to respect him. But this he can only get when he is in CC standing underneath the Cross of Jesus Christ, without whom NOBODY will respect PG at all. That's why CC pastors do not attend PUBLIC FUNCTIONS. Outside the walls of CC they are nothing and nobodies.
3. PG's perceived "influence and power" is limited to Calvary Church and the few international committees that he represents now. But look closely again at his influence in these committees. How much are they supporting him in his CCC vision?
Yes they will come in 2013 to attend the World conference for 1 week. They will sit on the pews to enjoy the softness and soak up the beauty of the building and then what happens?
- THEY WILL LEAVE PG WITH THE RM75 MILLION LOAN TO BEAR.
- Of course PG WILL ALSO LEAVE WITH THEM AND LEAVE BEHIND THE RM75 million loan to the APs to bear.
- By then, Peter O, Steven K, Timothy O, Richard Y, Susan Tan and the whole lot will be retiring also (seriously, they are all in this category) LEAVING THE RM75 MILLION LOAN TO DEACONS.
- The Deacons are volunteers only. They can come up with excuses like business or work commitments and family commitments and THEY ARE OFF THE HOOK, LEAVING THE RM75 MILLION LOAN to the new ones.
NO NO NO THANK YOU.
Influence and power, the Calvary Church kind, I say "No Thank You". You can have it all.
I want to be able to skip and sing while walking into Heaven's Gates and wave my hands at friends and family I will meet there and have many people welcome me and hug and kiss me because they are so happy to see me because I DID NOT LEAVE THEM AND THEIR CHILDREN AND THEIR GRAND CHILDREN WITH RM75 MILLION LOAN TO BEAR ON THEIR OWN.
Now you really think that people here are jealous of PG's influence and power?
NO NO NO if there's envy in us, it would be for people like Mother Teresa, David Wilkerson or even Fred Abesekaran and many others who truly gave their lives to obey God and served God's people.
OVERSTAYED TERM
SP, we members of the congregation wish to have a word or two with you :
"Resign !" (One word)
and
"Repeat, retire !" (Two words).
You got the message long ago. But we believe you were stubborn to admit the truth. We concluded you had long overstayed your term of contract. We understand your resignation is long overdue. You know that. We know that. So please do the right thing - retire with dignity, as SP. For your own good. For your family. And for everyone else.
... while you still earn our respect and honor for what little good you might have done in the past, and while we may overlook your possible shortcomings.
Be decent enough to do the necessary.
Resign immediately ! And enjoy your retirement.
CRYING FOR JUSTICE!
Does the response of faith never extend past the admonition to ‘turn the other check’? In situations where people stand with evil intent and hell bound to destroy God’s people, what is the Christians response?
Are not Christians called to ‘love our enemies’, ‘bless and curse not’? Yet study Scripture carefully and you will note that there are circumstances both in the OT and NT where God does authorize Christians to cry for vengeance even the physical removal of those who oppose His work (Duet 32, Duet 19, Rev 6:10; 18:20).
To the modern era, the word VENGEANCE evokes images of malice and self-seeking revenge and sinful connotations. But to the ancient Israelites and through the pages of Scripture, the concept of vengeance is tied to the requirements of justice.
Where justice is trampled, vengeance is demanded. The display of God’s vengeance is in fact coupled with His character of just and holy and His claim as a JUST, LOVING AND HOLY Lord of the Universe.
God’s vengeance is inseparably linked to His loving kindness. His vengeance is the other side of His compassion, the ‘dark-side’ of His mercy. If God is to save His people from sin, oppression and injustice, HE MUST EXACT VENGEANCE upon His enemies and the enemies of His people.
“Behold your God, He will come with vengeance; with divine recompense He will come and He will save you” (Isa 35:4). We can never speak of the love and justice of God without reflecting upon His WRATH and VENGEANCE.
A question often asked is, “How can it be right for Christians to cry out for divine vengeance and violence (even death)? Scriptures offer four observations to address this question.
1. The vengeance appealed for is not personally enacted. Rather, we call upon God to be the Avenger.
2. The appeal is based on the covenant promise of God – “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay” (Deut 32:35). Since God has so promised, then it is not wrong for His people to petition Him.
3. Both testaments record examples of God’s people on earth crying for vengeance. (Gal 1:8-9, Acts 8:20).
4. Scripture records an instance in which God’s people in HEAVEN, WHERE THERE IS NO SIN, cry out for DIVINE VENGEANCE and are comforted by the assurance of its impending enactment (Rev. 6:9-11). Since the martyred saints are perfected in Heaven, their cry would be right. There is so SIN in seeking vengeance!
The pattern of God’s action in Scripture is characterized by long suffering grace. BUT THERE COMES THE POINT OF JUDGMENT. The God who says ‘love your enemies’ also says ‘vengeance is mine, I will repay’.
We may conclude that in circumstances of injustice, hardened enmity and gross oppression, it always been appropriate for a believer to appeal for divine vengeance!
So continue to appeal for Divine Vengeance upon those who have desecrated the sanctuary of God.
Those who have committed CRIME AGAINST THE CHURCH, may do their very best to 'cover up their sins' - even REWORD the 'law' (Church Constitution) but God knows the heart, the real motives behind every action. Every word added or subtracted is noted in the Divine Court where the REAL JUDGE presides and He will pass His judgement on the criminals!
It is time for Christian to witness divine vengeance so that the fear and reverence of the Lord may once again sweep across Malaysia.
A number of Christian leaders have said their hands are tied, they cannot do anything. I only ask that they examine themselves: What has tied their hands? If it is fear of backlash from rogue leaders or lose of popularity, then they need to let the light of God shine into their hearts so that they may discern which fear is greater - is it the fear of man or the fear of the Lord!
I look forward to the day when Church leaders overcome fear and put their name and the church they represent (e.g. in this blog) and publicly give moral support for those who care for Truth, Transparency and Good Governance.
Vijay
i personally feel that TTG is wrong to put this website up and give the platform to ppl to run down AOG and its pastors - what about the Good pastors and Aog churches in malaysia - those who write here have a lot to say about AOG as a whole. condemning is not the way. THE assemblies of God worldwide has brought in thousands of souls into the kingdom and you are spitting on the AOG.
No no its ppl who allow their pastors to get big headed, its people who put their pastor on the pedestal.
the original group who was at Calvary before PG came, never really accepted him as their pastor - it took years before this comes to the surface. "when ppl can say who is he we were here before him." that means "you think you have the upper hand". My friend in worldly terms the original group are traitors - the trouble makers.
when the people of israel wanted a king God warned them that if they do get a king , he will take the best for himself , land , food and etc etc. you see when they did get a king - what was due to him must go to him - the ppl can't say oh you can''t take so much and so on..
and they can't say "hey we were here before you.. in fact we asked to have a king so actually you are here on account of US". well that's not how it works once the king comes and is installed he will take the best and rule and govern.
simmarly when you get a pastor - don't think that its a democracy...no church is a democracy...its what the man at the top says. Kong Hee,Rick warren, Joseph Prince, Brian houston, PG , david wilkerson, the pope, the list goes on and on...who told you the church is a democracy. its not. that's why the onus is up to you to find a leader that suits your make up and stick with him or her through thick or thin and you will find your self in a better place.
You cry babies speak of your pastor as controlling - by all your comments you have already stipulated what a pastor must be , look , dress, speak, how much of money - wow you know so much about how a pastor should be. its amazing - then why don't you become a pastor and lead the way then. you are upset when pastors tell you what to do but you are so blind to see that you want to control pastors yourselves.
Please get it right. We did not want a king. We already have a King and that's Jesus.
We agreed to employ PG as our SERVANT!!!!
It's PG who had a servant's position has usurped our King Jesus' throne because he was greedy and jealous. He plotted to take over our King Jesus' church by removing all of King Jesus' faithful people and made himself king over Calvary Church which rightfully belongs to Jesus, our King.
PG loves to live by the OT stories. Have many times have you heard him preach about the life of Christ, or the apostle Paul or Peter? Ever wondered why?
Because Jesus Christ, Paul, Peter and the rest of the NT people are all SERVANTS OF GOD and are called to serve the people. Even Jesus washed his disciples' feet and Paul worked as a tent maker to serve the people and did not want to burden the church members financially in order to support him. They were not sent by God to be "king" over God's people.
That's why PG will not preach the sacrificial life of Jesus and the early leaders of the church to protect, nurture, care and love the church (btw are the members).
Going on to your question, "why don't you become a pastor"? My friend, we know that the calling of a pastor is not a calling into "influence and power" (as someone said earlier) but a calling into a life of heavy responsibility and ultimate servanthood. If we cannot fulfill that calling, we tell God the truth and ask him to send us out to the marketplace to make the money instead, so that the "servants of God" aka Pastors can be paid.
So pastors out there, if you cannot live a life of sacrifice and hard work then tell God and ask him to send you out to the marketplace instead. What PG and his likes have done is that they have cheapened and degraded the position of Pastor to be one of a professional Beggar.
Bible schools have a lot of damage control to do from now on. They need to revamp their curriculum and have a new paradigm shift. Many years ago, people were scared of Insurance salespersons. The Insurance Companies went on a massive education and training program for all their sale personnel. Today, Insurance Salesperson is considered a Professional Person who is highly qualified and knowledgeable in their field and people no longer run away from them. Bible schools must learn from this.
To Pastors - Church members are looking for servant heart pastors who will care for their spiritual needs and love them so that they can feel the love of God the Heavenly Father. Church members do not need a king over them.
Once they know that you genuinely care for them, they will also care for you as servants of God because they are grateful to the Heavenly Father for sending a wonderful servant to them. Pastors you do not need to worry that members will not take care of you.
Personally, I have never allowed a church worker to pay for anything for me. When I see them in restaurants, I always pay their bill and do it with great joy. We do not wish to "control pastors". We are too busy in the marketplace making the money so that we can support the pastor and church work.
So Pastors, be a servant to your members and they will treat you like "kings" but if you become a "king" and lord over them, they will not even want to employ you as a servant.
Church members cannot fight you when you make the church your personal kingdom but they can TOTT - TURN OFF THE TAP.
dear anonymous july 31, 12.39 am.
Excuse me, a church cannot practice democracy? Give me abundant love peace joy truth righteousness which is product of a church advocating freedom and democratic principles
I hope that you are not advocating a climate of hypocrisy, suppression and oppression where a church cannot observe and apply transparency, truth and Godly governance.
Remember true disciples are the salt and light in the world.
Therefore, give me democracy and free speech in the church and let hypocrisy remains with renegade churches.
Praise the Lord, there are many faithful Christian leaders
dear anonymous july 31, 12.39 am.
Before you pen your comment, may I ask the followings:
1. Have you been to Calvary Church on Sundays for the services?
2. How do you feel if you discovered that your pastor transfer money to his personal ministry from church?
3. How do you feel if you discovered that Tsunami funds collected were not sent to Indonesia but kept in his personal ministry?
4. How do you feel if the pastor axed you from church membership?
5. Are you not for Truth, Transparency and Godly Governance?
PG need to be exposed !!!!!
They have approach AOG Msia,
Written to AOG US,
And also NECF before they start this blog.
REMEMBER !!!!!!!!
ALL ROGUE LEADERS NEED TO BE EXPOSED.
dear anonymous july 31, 12.39 am.
The way you put it, you have so conveniently shift the blame on the church members for choosing a dictatorial pastor, citing a biblical quotation from the OT and giving the examples of Rick warren, Joseph Prince, Brian houston, PG , david Wilkerson etc.
Are you aware (if you are truly a disciple of Jesus) that these “pastors” are going AGAINST THE NEW TESTAMENT TEACHINGS and PRACTICES of the Ways of God and it is interesting that these names you gave to support your case are ALL FALSE PROPHETS and FALSE TEACHERS. One can easily check the net to confirm this.
What is there to admire these false teachers. Only their followers do so. I can only conclude that you are one of their followers and probably you want to imitate them. Be my guest and await your judgment.
Some people just cannot be saved no matter what we say in this blog.
Please get it right. We did not want a king. We already have a King and that's Jesus.
We agreed to employ PG as our SERVANT
to the chap who wrote this - this is exactly my point - the attitude that i kinda picked up from all your comments is the mindset that
we are paying for a servant. sorry where we come from we highly respect our pastor,he is our beloved leader not our servant its the other way around, i want him to have a servant's heart before God at all times but i want him to be a lion when it comes to the church and the world. No we never pay our pastor to be a servant as you say.
the rest i agree with you esp the part of ins sales ppl and the perception. good job on that.
"i think from now on i will be known as Calvanist - becos sometimes i don't know who is refering to who" cheers
1. Have you been to Calvary Church on Sundays for the services?
yes i hv the moment i read tgg mths 3 months ago i moved to Calvary. family enjoys it too. as long i can sence God presence its good enough for me.
2. How do you feel if you discovered that your pastor transfer money to his personal ministry from church?
as far as i am concerned my money that goes in the bag is given to GOd and not to man. if it is true that underhanded things are done i will leave it in GOd's hands - becos someone has dared to play the fool with GOd and his ppl and the ppls money. When God judges it will be sure and final. (i hold the story where david had a chance to kill saul but he didnt)
3. How do you feel if you discovered that Tsunami funds collected were not sent to Indonesia but kept in his personal ministry?
again same as above and and also cornelius gave alms to people and when christianity came to the gentiles cornelius was first up . why? the bible says that all his deeds had not gone unnoticed by God. Conelius a gentile was noticed by God. that's what i am after. if i have to ensure every bit of money is used correctly in this fallen world i will be as unhappy as you. but i am not i am very happy.
4. How do you feel if the pastor axed you from church membership?
you must flow with the main vision on the church. but sadly as i can see in calvary's case many people through the years were having their own agenda and were not flowing with the central vision
if i was axed from somewhere... that means i was not wanted - would not fight to be where i am not wanted.
5. Are you not for Truth, Transparency and Godly Governance?
JESUS is truth the Word of God is truth. I am in the truth. But my beef with TGG is the method you employ. A through a blog? allowing malicious idiots to run down AOG and a pastor. i was not in the Aog but i would not run down any denomination when they have proven to save souls over the years.
look here if pg did wrong sue him in open court furnish details and get him behind bars. but if you can't do that means legally he did no wrong. but its his methods that you don't like, same here i don't like the methods you are using to bring shame to Christ and His Church.
To Anonymous 31 July12.39am
who said:
"the original group who was at Calvary before PG came, never really accepted him as their pastor - it took years before this comes to the surface. "when ppl can say who is he we were here before him." that means "you think you have the upper hand". My friend in worldly terms the original group are traitors - the trouble makers. "
If you have not spoken to the original group and get their views, please do not simply make a statement that they are traitors and troublemakers.
When PG was accepted as the pastor, the congregation liked him and his family. They supported him whole heartedly and trusted him. He had taken CC to another level.
Unfortunately without the original group of worshippers knowing, he had changed slowly (as everyone know) and the group thus realised that he had betrayed the congregation.
The original group who were from the Chinese church in Pudu was there when the English CC church was formed. This group was also part of the group that raised money for the DH original building. It is only when SP started to claim he started CC that the original group felt that this was not right because before SP there were few other pastors and they did not claim they started the church.
Of course the original group knows more about the history of CC than SP so "who is he, we are here before him" Saying that did not mean they group did not accept him right from the beginning!!
Say, know your history before you comment.
Church members cannot fight you when you make the church your personal kingdom but they can TOTT - TURN OFF THE TAP.
if any calvary member planned to give lets say rm1000 to the church but because of your TOTT method they choose to give rm500 to the church and rm500 to the cancer fund of malaysia.
tgg gloats and its happy
the member thinks he is somehow teaching pg a lesson and at the same time doing good after all
i say both are wrong - TGG you are are causing division.
members if you plan to give RM1000 then trust God and give RM1000 - you follow tgg method what you are doing is employing human strength to do what only GOd can do.
It is only when SP started to claim he started CC that the original group felt that this was not right because before SP
thanks for the info on the ori group.
but my point is as you said the "ori group felt"
by your own admission i can see that there was always two minds in this church.
i pity your pastor - so he must have had this wachdog group in his church all thru these years.
as long as he toes the line all is good and cherry. but if he ruffles feathers then watch out the ori group is there ready, able and willing to speak about how it started, who is right and who is wrong. defend the truth.
you are right that i may not know the details about your church but let me tell you i am quite familar with the spirit. the spirit that causes division.
i went to a church in ipoh to preach to about 200. after the session - 3 groups came and spoke to me in hushed vioces about the pastor, and the other 2 groups. and they all despise the other. mind you this goes every sunday
so in the fellowship time i spoke to the pastor - and he said yup i know about the factions..so i asked are you doing anything about it..he said ya thats why i have arranged outside meetings i only teach here 1 a month!
the spirit of division comes in varoius forms. "Judas:why wasnt the perfume sold and money given to the poor" see a disciple of Jesus and his noble cause.
but the big picture is something else.
you guys in calvary a ready to blame pg. sorry i mean crucify pg. but by reading your comments the sane can see what you really are.
(does not mean i condone wrong acts in church...however you ppl have no idea how to bring about change--your mud slinging and verbal condemnation of AOG and PG is proof enough to me about your heart. - one joker commented about how pg must appologise to Lisa.. but its ok for the moderator of this blog to allow slander and pre judments of pg even to the point of saying that demons are preaching from the pulpit. hmmm think about it.
Jesus said pray for your enemys not curse and swear and call them demons. think about that too.
Dr Vijay is this your idea of TGG blog being a blessing to malaysian churches?
i state it is not.
Is there anyway we get get this King of Liars off the stage? The mere sight of him irritates me and I cant worship God. SP- please get off the stage..please man.
do you know why the sight of pg irratates you...becos you have allowed bitterness and a self righteous spirit to enter you-- causing division.
the problem is you not pg
In reply to Anony August 1, 2011 4.04pm. Since you do not at all know the exact details of the true situation in Calvary Church regarding the personality of SP, his pastors and their dictortarial rule and spiritual abuse of its members, you are not qualified and would not be able to make correct comments.
You seemed to claim yourself an "expert" on matters that causes spirit of division. But from the manner & immaturity in your comments, may I humbly say you had a lot to learn to grow to be more matured and more wisdom in the knowledge of the Word of God.
So looks like Anon, August 1, 2011 4:04 PM is a pastor. He said, (i went to a church in ipoh to preach to about 200)
We can understand why you feel pity for PG but to say that there was a watchdog group all these years watching him is not right. If there was such a group (sadly there was none) we would not have Calvary saga today and this blog CalvaryToday won't even exist.
Because there was no watchdogs in churches that's why pastors act like kings today and they can do what they like with church money and church members.
You see, the members did not even question PG for the last 30+ years because they loved and trusted him. It is PG, the pastor, who had the attitude as you said, "as long as he (members) toes the line all is good and cherry (that's what happened in CC for 30 years past). but if he (members) ruffles (pastor's) feathers then watch out the ori (pastors) group is there ready, able and willing to speak about how it started, who is right and who is wrong. defend the truth."
Moving on, Who has "the spirit that causes division." here? It was PG who kicked out 400 church members thus causing the 400 christian to be divided to different churches today. Who divided the church? He did not talk to the members - he just kicked them out!
Who was the one who not only divided the church but divided families also. He axed the wife but kept the husband, why? Because wife is a housewife with no income so no tithes but husband is a working man who must pay tithes? Who conducted closed door and by invitation only ceramahs, whereby husband and wife had to attend separate groups? You see, members cannot do all this. Only pastors can because they are the ones with "influence and power" in the church.
Moving on to your sentence, "by reading your comments the sane can see what you really are." You are right! The sane really saw what TTG is all about - It's about Truth, Transparency and Godly Governance. Otherwise how can you account for the reason why the mass exodus of members out of Calvary Church and the willingness of members to TOTT.
And to your question to Dr Vijay. I give you my answer to that. Yes TTG blog is a blessing to many malaysian churches. Why I say so?
1. Because this blog has given so many people a clear understanding of what really happened with the CC saga. It gives us the other side of things. With all these info, we make up our own minds to what is right or wrong. For me, I moved on to another church where I am very happy to be in. Many ex-calvarites are there too and we are all serving God faithfully and giving our tithes and offerings faithfully. We do not ask the pastors there what they do with our money because we trust them.
2. This blog informs us of many christian activities that are happening around us. My family now attends many combined prayer meetings with other churches. We even join in prayer walks and pray for our nation. PG in Calvary have never informed us of any christian activities organised by other churches.
3. This blog has given us hope in knowing that we are not alone. We know that there are many people who feel the same way as us. We have confidence now to stand up for TTG and we now know that there are many who also stand up for TTG, even from other churches.
one does not have to be a pastor to teach in a church.
Many ex-calvarites are there too and we are all serving God faithfully and giving our tithes and offerings faithfully. We do not ask the pastors there what they do with our money because we trust them.
yes that lasts only until they come up with projects you dissaprove off
CHURCH MEMBERS BEWARE – The pastor says THE MONEY BELONGS TO GOD
Well said. And that is what all the pastors will tell us. The donations you made do not belong to the church. It belongs to God. I will not dispute this but please read the below:
So meanwhile, under this pretext a greedy-for-wealth pastor can easily siphon off God’s money for his own purposes quietly (if possible) and he can support his actions (like so many of these false evangelists in America) by telling you “The Money belongs to God” and you should not be asking him to account how the money he has spent on behalf of God. What a convenient excuse to give.
Many church goers are so gullible, accepting everything their pastor says – spiritually immature and unable to distinguish between the Word of God and Satan’s lies.
Q: Do we as church members believe and accept blindly whatever our pastor says. If so, why did John the Apostle ask us NOT TO BELIEVE EVERY SPIRIT BUT TEST THE SPIRITS ..
And why does the NT tell us to examine the Scriptures like the bereans to check and confirm whether the preachers are saying and doing the work of the Gospel according to the Scriptures.
1 John 4:1 (NIV) Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
The unfortunate part is that many of these false prophets have been with their churches for many years and they have gained the confidence of the congregation. That makes the situation favorable to these con-artists to capitalize on though at one time they were sincere.
So when the church members protest, the pastor easily makes the statement – This money belongs to God and as church leaders and your pastor, we are entitled to do what we think best. That is a good excuse. And these protestors are seen as dividing the church – That is another good joke.
And someone comes along to tell these church members – God will judge these errant pastors not us. No doubt about it, God will pass the judgment on them. “Pray for your enemies” is a good advice, so we prayed for them for the last few years, hoping that these errant pastors will repent while waiting to see how God is going to deal with them.
Then another person comes along and say this is not the right way. Then tell these oppositions what should be the right way – discuss the matter with the pastor but he refuses to see you – how to have a dialog with him to resolve church problems like that.
To me, the answer is straightforward enough. If I discover that my pastor has a LYING and a COVETOUS SPIRIT, you can be sure I WILL NOT FOLLOW him. It is better that I go to another church that teaches and practices NT. Am I causing a split with “his” church.
And if I see a friend who is attending such a church with a lying pastor, and I advise him be careful – am I causing a division?
Then how come Paul and John in their epistles advise us to avoid these false teachers. Are Paul and John causing a split in the church?
Why did Paul and John point these out and these are recorded in the Bible and let the whole world know – are they unscriptural and are they going against Jesus teaching – love your enemies.
As I always say, there is a tendency for even pastors to interpret the Bible in such a way to justify their actions but there are also Biblical verses that teach otherwise. So, is the Bible (the Word of God) creating a division within the church and contradict its own teachings.
I have been worshipping in Calavary for sometime now and still found here. I still give to Calvary and other ministries/causes outside Calvary. Oh, this is nothing to do with the so-called "tott" but rather it is where God wants me to give. However, this much I would like to say - that the teaching that all giving must go to the church cannot be found in scripture; and incidentally, the idea of "faith promise" also is not biblical. Even so, I do participate in "faith promise" since it is meant for missions although the CCC appears to be taking a more prominent stage?
I have been worshipping in Calavary for sometime now and still found here. I still give to Calvary and other ministries/causes outside Calvary. Oh, this is nothing to do with the so-called "tott" but rather it is where God wants me to give. However, this much I would like to say - that the teaching that all giving must go to the church cannot be found in scripture; and incidentally, the idea of "faith promise" also is not biblical. Even so, I do participate in "faith promise" since it is meant for missions although the CCC appears to be taking a more prominent stage?
"Praise God for people like you - yes yourr are right not all money needs to go to the Church. point was we should not let the persons who started TOTT to be the motivation factor. its your money you do what you see fit.
Dear Anonymous at August 1, 2011 10:03 PM,
We all love to give to missions but CC has distorted the meaning of missions. An American preacher was invited to CC to get the people to handle the collection of faith promises. He said that missions giving is the most noble form of giving because the people who give does not get to enjoy the benefit of the giving. If you give money to buy a chair for the church you get to sit on it but if you give to missions you give the money away and does not get to benefit from it. In CC less than half of the money collected from faith promise is given away. Most is retained and used in the church, to pay for missions department salaries, equipment and vehicles for use by missions department and outreaches, even the shows we put up in Putra Stadium comes from the faith promise. You surely know that SP traveling expenses on business class all over the world comes from here too. The missions budget had been kept low for years so that surpluses can be generated for the CCC. Do you get to enjoy the CCC? How can it be missions giving then? Wise up man, you are being conned. Find a church that actually give away all its missions giving, e.g., SIB, DUMC, SSMC. Every sen is given away. I am sure there are many churches who do not resort to this type of con to get money.
To Anony August 1, 10.02pm. You have expressed very well on your comments relating to spirit of division according to Scripture, the Word of God. In response to this brother at Anonymous August 1, 4.04pm who seemed to pride himself on his knowledge on what causes spirit of division, please whoever you are, learned from this brother on his spiritual wisdom in his comments on what is spirit of division according to Bible. One must be able to discern with one's heart to know & understand God's spiritual rightousness in His written Word. So, PLEASE, before you try to be smart & make any more unwise comments, I suggest you learn and read more of your Bible first to become a more matured christian.
RESPONSE TO ANONYMOUS DATED
"...one joker commented about how pg must appologise to Lisa"
...................................
Would you have said the same thing if it was your wife or your daughter who was shouted at and humiliated in public in full view of the church? Have you thought about the feelings of her family of how they were shamed??
You attitude and manner of speech reveals the present spirit thats got hold of CC and its members.Its not even secular- its bordering on the demonic- Like Lady Ga Ga's show.
CC has degenerated into a conjob mostly followed by dumb sheep.
Wake up man- who is the joker here? If SP were a true pastor , he would have sought out the hurting sheep and make amends- but as it is - he is just sitting there for the salary-no doubt about that-and justifying his actions.
Come on lah- we are supposed to watch over each other- not abuse and hurt eachg other. Look at SP's actions-its obvious he does not care about the sheep anymore- slash!!!!!---400 booted out the door.Hes backslidden right now and needs to go off to listen to the voice of God again.
I will continue to attend CC. I was here even before he came here- but forget about me giving any $$$.I am sending it to Malaysian Care instead.
THERE IS A LOT OF CON JOB GOING ON IN CC RIGHT NOW.THEY HAVE LOST THEIR INTEGRITY AND ANOINTING.YES, I WAS THERE WHEN RICHARD YUN PREACHED ON "GIVE NOW AND ASK QUESTION LATER". IT SEEMS THEY CANNOT PREACH A SINGLE SERMON WITHOUT ANY REFERENCE TO THE MONEY.BROOD OF VIPERS.. IF YOU ASK ME!!!
Hello Anon, August 1, 2011 8:57 PM
You said, "yes that lasts only until they come up with projects you dissaprove off".
Most church members are supportive of their pastors' projects as long as they are God given. Calvary is not the only church with a building project. Many who have "migrated" to the River of Life in Hartamas are giving to the church building fund there. In fact, many are also committee members of the building project. How come? Because God will send the workers and money if it's His project.
Look at Metro Tabernacle, God even caused the government to give them money for furnishing. Did Rev Ong pester his members to give? Well didn't hear any complaints. In fact, his members love him because he is said to be very friendly to his members.
I know of many ex-calvarites are now actively involved in fund raising for their new church building project and are very supportive of their new pastor's church building vision.
You see, When a "project" is God given, the pastor do not need to worry about money to fund the project. It belongs to God and He will provide the funds.
When a "project" is God given, the pastor do not need to worry if members approve or not. Pastors just need to go on their knees to pray that God will open the eyes of the members to see His Vision. The members will eventually get it - however the catch phrase is - IT IS GOD GIVEN and not ONE MAN'S AMBITION.
If so many members oppose PG's CCC vision that can cause such a major exodus, then PG and his leadership should sit down and do a major postmortem of his CCC project.
Anon August 2, 2011 2:30 PM said: God will send the workers and money if it's His project… You see, When a "project" is God given, the pastor do not need to worry about money to fund the project. It belongs to God and He will provide the funds… “
Well said, brother. It is as simple as that.
No hassle, no fuss. That is what it means to have faith in God that He will provide - no need to apply pressure on the church members to donate.
So, PG, you got a problem. You created it and now you put the blame on the ex-Calvarites and CT for causing your problem and splitting CC. This is the biggest joke around town.
When a "project" is God given, the pastor do not need to worry if members approve or not. Pastors just need to go on their knees to pray that God will open the eyes of the members to see His Vision. The members will eventually get it - however the catch phrase is - IT IS GOD GIVEN and not ONE MAN'S AMBITION.
If so many members oppose PG's CCC vision that can cause such a major exodus, then PG and his leadership should sit down and do a major postmortem of his CCC project.
well said i can't disagree with you bro.
however i have said in many posts : i don't agree with any christian tearing down a pastor or a denomination because YOU seem to think that it has lost its direction - God will not give up so easily on us even if we back slide of fail. i dont agree with the mudslinging and curses that are hurled at pg or AOG, the way you guys hate its as if God is blind and he cannot see between right and wrong...to the point that you take it into your hand to renegade the church, the project and the pastor and leadership.
I will continue to attend CC. I was here even before he came here- but forget about me giving any $$$.I am sending it to Malaysian Care instead.
check this out - this is what i am talking about.
the spirit of division.
I will still come here.
I was here before him.
I will sent my money to m care
joker how can you grow in a place where you are hating on.
so u are the type that eats in mc d's and pays at kfc.... ha ha.....
To 020811 5:37
Stop it !!!!!!!
Only Calvary Pastors said,
eat at McD and pay at KFC !!!!!
ALL THE CHURCHES(restaurants) belongs to HIM and HIM ALONE.
IT IS CALLED CHRIST "RESTAURANT".
THERE IS ONLY ONE HEAVEN
God will not begin a new thing in his church
until he does away with the old.
This biblical principle,
proven throughout centuries of church history,
is found in both Testaments and governs any true move of God.
As Jesus put it,
he won’t put new wine into old wineskins (see Mark 2:22).
The principle of doing away with the old and raising up the new
was first introduced in the Old Testament at Shiloh.
During the time of the Judges, God
established a holy work in that
city (see Judges 18:31).
Shiloh, where the
Lord’s sanctuary stood, was the center of all religious activity in Israel.
The name Shiloh itself means “that which is the Lord’s.” This speaks of things that represent God and reveal his nature and character.
God spoke to his people at Shiloh; it was there that Samuel heard God’s voice
and where the Lord revealed his will to him
(see 1 Samuel 1).
The Lord STOPPED speaking at Shiloh because the priest had become lazy and sensual and the city had become CORRUPT.
God told Samuel,in essence,
“Shiloh has become so defiled,
it no longer represents who I am.
This house is no longer mine.
I’m finished with it.”
So the Lord lifted his presence from the sanctuary and wrote
“Ichabod” above the door,
which means,
“The glory of the Lord has departed.”
David Wilkerson
I have attended cc for 20 over years. It was a great church and I have grown a lot under the cell leader, SCG teachers n some sermons. Strangely even from the very beginning I always fall asleep when PG preaches. All these years I have no connection with PG nor liked him. It is the AP and people attending cc that kept me there enabling me to tolerate a "worthless senior pastor". Always prayed for a right church and finally God showed us DUMC and we left cc shortly before TTG started. We were unaware that others, too have felt things are going wrong. I am most disappointed with the APs, especially older ones like PO, TO and SK. What is wrong with them??? Are they so blinded or they too have greed and ego in their hearts.
Jesus said in Mat 21:13, "My house will be called a house of prayer, but you are making it a den of robbers." The reason for Jesus saying this is in v12, "Jesus entered the temple (today's church) area and drove out all who were buying and selling there."
Just wondering if Calvary Church is God's House or a restaurant?
Be very careful when you refer to people who go to church as, "the type that eats in mc d's and pays at kfc..." With this you have reduced the Church of Jesus Christ to a restaurant whereby people must pay for the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
When Jesus sent his 12 disciples (today's pastors), He "gave them authority to drive out evil spirits and to heal every disease and sickness" (Matt 10:1). Then in v 8, He said, "Freely you have received, freely give."
Please do not expect and least of all require people who go to church to pay for what they receive from God. If pastors do that, they are charging people for the free gift of salvation which they themselves have received for free from God.
1 Pet 5:2-3, "Be shepherds of God's flock that is under your care, watching over them—not because you must, but because you are willing, as God wants you to be; not pursuing dishonest gain, but eager to serve; not lording it over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock."
As pastors lead by example you can expect the members to do the following in v 5, "In the same way, you who are younger, submit yourselves to your elders."
Going back to my earlier question: Is Calvary Church God's House or a restaurant?
If it's God's house and God is my Heavenly Father, why should I pay for the food I eat in my Father's house?
Does PG expect his children, Pam & Jim and all his grandchildren to pay after having dinner in his house. I'm sure not. Why? Because they are his children.
In fact, I think Petrina the mother would make sure she has more than enough to serve her children and grandchildren even making sure there's plenty of expensive chocolates and ice-cream for dessert. Why? Because they are her children and she enjoys seeing them happy.
Now do you think my Father is not happy to see me in His house (the church) every Sunday? Will he not be happy with me just because I came to His house and not pay Him after that? No absolutely not!
We don't see ourselves as eating in mc d's and paying in kfc.
We go to church to meet with God (which is free). We give our gifts (tithes & offerings) to God who is everywhere in every church and christian organizations and ministries.
This is what Jesus said in Matt 25:35-40, "For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.' "Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'
"The King will reply, 'Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.'
So We are not eating in mc d's or kfc, we went to our Father's house and we don't need to pay.
Please stop criticising AOG pastors and the 'PENTECOSTAL' churches. One of you contributor is especially fond of attacking PENTECOSTAL even go to the extreme of saying it is from Devil.
ONE BAD PASTOR DOES NOT MAKE THE WHOLE BASKET BAD.
Any denomination pastors or christian is capable of twisting the bible for their selfish gain. So don't just categorised as if only the pentecostals are doing that.
AOG churches for the last 50 years practised evangelism and baptism of the Holy Spirit and God has used them to save more souls than any other traditional churches. Many of todays free and independent evangelical churches are pastored by former AOG members or have been saved in an AOG church. Please tell me "Which AOG doctrine is wrong". Even the "money" part, it is still your decision to make whether to give or not. Nobody is forcing you.
I am no longer in AOG church but in an unusual Methodist Church because this church is pentecostal in every way. The power of the Holy Spirit in the praise and worship, the bold and powerful sermons, every inch like an AOG and not the traditional conservative (no power) excuse me, Methodist.
Lastly I would like to conclude with this thought "The problems in AOG, could it be because of its success, make them a target of spiritial attacks. Satan is attacking churches that are saving souls. Attack the pastors and seduce them with sweet temptations. When they fall, the church will collapse"
So, please do not be a part in bringing down AOG churches. If you have a problem with your pastor, pray for them and ask God for direction on what to do. TTG has seeked God and what has been done so far is with God's direction and wisdom. That is why when the whole pastoral and deacon board are unrepentant, the members are still going strong spiritally.
PG IS BEING ATTACKED FROM TWO FRONTS SPIRITUALLY
As I looked at the spiritual battle that PG is now facing, he is being attacked from two fronts with the latest comments from Anon’s post dated August 3, 2011 12:16 PM
(1)Because of your “success”, Satan is coming after you just like what Anon said July 28 10:17 am: ” Be careful, PG. Satan will be coming after you to destroy you.”
(2)Because of your covetousness to have power, wealth and fame and the cry for justice, God’s judgment is upon you.
Which option would you choose, PG? King David said it is better to be punished by God than to be destroyed by Satan.
SOLUTION: REPENT BEFORE IT IS TOO LATE.
For PG’s sake, readers, do not think I am running PG down. I have been praying for him and his companions that they evaluate their position realistically and do what the prodigal son did – repent.
Please stop criticising AOG pastors and the 'PENTECOSTAL' churches. One of you contributor is especially fond of attacking PENTECOSTAL even go to the extreme of saying it is from Devil.
ONE BAD PASTOR DOES NOT MAKE THE WHOLE BASKET BAD.
i fully support what this guy said
Well said. Most AOG pastors are sincere, committed and honorable. Only a very small number seeks their own glory. Nothing to do with the constitution. It is the person. Even where there is no constitution a good shepherd will always be a good shepherd. It is his heart. Even with the best of checks and balances a self-seeking pastor will always find ways to fulfill his personal ambitions. Again it is his heart. It is also not a matter of size. Just that the bigger the church the better the opportunity to satisfy his craving for power, money and glory.
Unfortunately only bad examples get highlighted here. Maybe those who have good pastors should comment here too. Encourage us with your experience of pastors who are really sincere, caring and nurturing. The good pastors should not feel hurt by the negative comments. You know yourself and God knows you. You are serving faithfully and sacrificially and your just reward is assured. We are blessed by your faithfulness.
Well say 'Grateful'. We don't pay for the food we eat in our Father's house.
It is PG who make up a theology to support his greedy lust for money. This is another of the many examples PG and his cronies cheat and exploit God's people.
Now, i do agree not all AOG pastors are bad. I know some are good, but the good ones won't join AOG committee because they themselves know those pastors in the AOG committee are corrupted. I know a pastor who is like my parent. He is one of the true shepherd who cares for the flock. He left AOG to pastor an Anglican church which need a pastor.
Another AOG pastor devoted his life to save the drug addicted people. He is humble and honest. We can see integrity in him.
But from the many pastors i know, i must say that 80% of the AOG pastors are bad to terrible. I knew a poor pastor who pioneer a church, and i thought perhaps he is genuine, but no. He is so arrogant. He rather make the church owe him money, than spend less on church expenses. He divided a church which has no pastor. The people now are very hurt by him and they left. And guess what? THis poor arrogant pastor said that he admire PG for the number of supporters he has, the money he own and the building he will build. This poor pastor can't preach well, yet he also has a vision of building a building. Bullshit. He destroy the walk of many christians and now he want a building?
The many bad pastors in AOG is alarming. If you are sincere, you will admit it. To say there are many bad is not condemning AOG, but to highlight concern that need proper action of remedy. Don't live in imagination, wake up and see.
WHOM SHOULD WE ADMIRE and IMITATE
It is surprising to note from this blog that there are those (in spite of the fact they say they are believers) admire evangelists and pastors because of their fame, their eloquence and the big crowds they are able to draw and the megachurch buildings they have. And they want to imitate these people.
The Bible teaches us to imitate the mind of Jesus as we become like unto those we admire and worship.
Poor guys, your focus is on men not on Jesus. May God help you?
I am in the same blog but I don't read anyone mentioned that they admire evangelists and pastors with big churches. I am the one who tried to be fair to all parties, not condoning the generalisation of "all pentecostals and AOG" pastors are bad. I urge all writers to respect the purpose of this blog and not turn this into a all out mud-slinging website where you can release all your frustations.
If there is one thing we can learn from this blog. is not how bad a church or pastor is, but to "watch and pray" lest we, too are overcome by the sinful desires of our own heart. We are all living in the last days, lets take care of brothers and sisters in Christ, uphold them in prayer and encourage one another in the faith, so that none will fall.
The Bible teaches us to imitate the mind of Jesus as we become like unto those we admire and worship.
Poor guys, your focus is on men not on Jesus. May God help you?
in reply -
Dear Bro. the church is confused as to weather its supposed to be rich or moderate or poor. Satan fed this lie to the RCC - hence the mystics, hermits and monks who taught that living a simple and poor life is close to godliness...
so when the Reformation began they also carried this concept into protestanism.
that's why there is a "mega split" in the church today.
many people reference Jesus as example that we have to be as poor as Him.
Do you agree that Jesus took sin and sickness on His body on the cross. most do. if you believe that then you must also believe that "HE BECAME POOR SO WE MIGHT BECOME RICH" 2 cor 8:9 in the context of that verse RICH is not spiritual riches but material. Friend being poor or moderate is not for Christians - you are Children of the King and you eat from His table. its not a moderate tableits a lavish glamour table!!!!
Also "Seek ye first the Kingdom...and all these things will be added unto you". what is the all things that Jesus refered to well you go read matt 6 you will see that "the things"is what the pagans want. Jesus said if you make God main priority in your life HE will give you all things.
you think that what the pagans go after we have to reject. that is not true in fact we Christians get to enjoy it all but priorty and heart comes first.
most of the Christians community in divided on riches.
most of the community is afraid of riches because it can pull them away from GOd
most in the community do not have a propper understanding of prosperity.
most in the community is sick and tired of teleevangelist and prosperity preachers harping on one point
i have to agree with you that there are people who are only after prosperity with out God. but that is to their folly.
when you say that in this blog many are following mega church preachers and so and so on...you do know if we are following Jesus or the preacher man. how do you know????? my friend can you see in each persons heart?????
my side of the story is i was a poverty stricken person and i enjoyed my poverty and my mainline pastor encouraged a moderate lifestyle and curbed any enthusiam to have more or be more. one day i cried out to GOd and asked "tell me if you want me status quo or as i see Abe, isaac and Jacob - you want to bless me to OVERFLOWING" God asked me back what do you think- that day a decade ago began my search on prosperity...well to cut a long story short - i am not poor any more and i have excess that i can give away. Had i remained in that small minded thinking church, had i succumbed to fear that riches will draw me away from God, had i believed the notion that being poor or moderate lifestyle is next to godliness i would not be where i am today. though i listen to the mega church pastors sermons. my life is in the word of GOd. Jesus made me rich through His Word.
HOLY HOLY HOLY
IS THE LORD GOD ALMIGHTY
WORTHY WORTHY WORTHY
IS THE LORD GOD ALMIGHTY
SURELY SURELY SURELY
WILL THE LORD GOD ALMIGHTY COME SOON!
MORNING STAR
A good example to follow is David Green of Hobby Lobby recently donated to Pastor Rick Warren's church ministry Saddleback Church in California a 170 acres Ranch which they acquired from Crystal Catheral recently when the Catheral faced financial difficulty. Read the link for your encouragement. I wish more christian in Malaysia can follow their example not only in words but in deeds.
http://www.benzinga.com/pressreleases/11/08/b1826233/saddleback-church-to-receive-donation-of-170-acre-ranch
ASS PEE, NOT TTG, TO BE BLAMED FOR SPLIT/SCHISM
Certain unknown persons, unscrupulously, underhandedly, with hidden agenda, had tried their best to split the unity of christians by blaming TTG for being the root cause of the schism in CC, and to a larger extent, the other AOG churches. Being masters of deception, they tried their best to sow discontent among the fellow Christian brothers and sisters, by pointing accusing fingers at TTG for being "troublemakers who started it all". We suspect they are Ass Pee supporters or henchmen. Likewise certain AOG cronies had voiced their wrong accusation of TTG. Of course, they dislike TTG which have rocked their boat, (and rice bowl), by spilling the beans.
In truth, in reality, it was Ass Pee2 Gee who should shoulder the responsibility of the "fall of CC". he was dicovered transfering church funds. He sacked his own long serving deacon who exposed his wrong doings. He axed or changed the stautus of 400 plus members, on trumped up charges of infringing the church constitution. Many among these members were dedicated active and sering members. He seemed determined to quash any form of suspected opposition to his alleged "iron fisted rule". He changed the church oonsitution and/or conveniently change the interpretation of its contents to his own advantage. Eg. the saff rules do not apply to him.
In fact, we applaud TTG's role as sigmificant as Wikileaks's impage to all Christians and to the whole world. for exposing the sinful nature of Ass Pee. other bloggers in turn exposed their own rogue leaders in their respective churches. Sinful pastors, repent and resign now. God fearing pastors, please continue attending and loving to your flocks.
Well done TTG. Keep up the good work ! God is using you to clean up His churches.
RESPONSE TO :-ANONYMOUS 3RD AUGUST 2011 ON:-
The many bad pastors in AOG is alarming. If you are sincere, you will admit it. To say there are many bad is not condemning AOG, but to highlight concern that need proper action of remedy. Don't live in imagination, wake up and see.
..................................
Thanks for this comment.However I urge you to tread cautiously. These "Pastors" are not as innocent as they want the congregation to believe- they can get to you in a 100 different ways by using others to hit out at you. Also they have surrounded themselves with their cronies whom they can control 100%.So beware.Observe the CC episode.The congragation is literally at their fingertips.So again I say- tread cautiously.
Sunset
Grace and Peace to you to all visitors here. The reason I wrote this is because I certain sister told me that she was withdrawing her EPF contributions to give to CCC.( she is entitled to withdraw 1/3)
The madness is widespread in CC. I am leaving for good.
BGA = Bring Greater Awareness, is so important. To just TOTT is acting in isolation. BUt TOTT does not stop the sister who gives 1/3 of her EPF. She knew nothing about PG's corruption. She is brainwashed to believe faith promise is still giving 100% to for mission work. She thought those TTG oppose PG because of jealousy. She knew nothing about PG's corruption. BUt BGA will tell everyone. Then it is up to them to decide. BUt without BGA, they have nothing to decide. And when this poor fellow realise that she has been cheated of her 1/3 EPF, it is too late for her. TTG neglected to BGA. BGA is a noble thing to do, equivalent to evangelism. YOu cannot keep silent when you saw the pastor raping a daughter of a member. Likewise, the public as well as the church people are being raped by PG thru his snakelike cunning character.
TODAYS "ANOINTED" SERMON
Nehemiah wanted to build the wall but there was opposition. And suddenly the Pastor mentioned CCC building and the TTG group "raised up by the devil" to oppose.
After the service I asked him,is TTG opposing the CCC or or they asking for transparency in the accounts? He just looked at me blankly.He knew what he is doing- misleading the church into believing this AOG crap being churned out from the pulpit.This blog has exposed quite a bit - and maybe himself too-he too has ambitions for a 3 million dollar church building- but ever since this blog was born- he is being careful.He is equating all opposition to the devil so that when the time comes for him with his ambition for another shopping complex -hardly anyone raises their voice!!!
I tell you there is no cure for these salaried AOG jokers.
Lets Bersih the Church!!!!
WATCH OUT FOR CONS & CROOKS
For most people, who have to work for a living, besides having to support themselves and other dependents in years to come, when they reach their respective retirement ages, EPF (Employees Provident Fund) represents a vey sizeable (if not the bulk) of their life's savings.
Therfore it comes as a real shock to us that a Christian sister reportedly plans to withdraw one third of her EPF savings to contribute that said amount to this particular church - a religious institution which rogue leader had make it very clear through his appointed lawyer who made his authorized statement to the church congregation that :
1. Your church is not business institutions.
2. Your church therefore is not run like a business entity.
3. Your contributions to your church are considered your love offerings, your love gifts to your church. That is, No accounts details needed.
4. Therefore, there is no need for accountability on how, where, why, who, etc your money is spent, etc.
5. In other words, it is or rather "It was your money". Now it is "our money". Meaning, you now got no say... It is now "our money". It's up to "us" how we want to spend it !!!!!!!!
So please wise up fast, lady... before your hard earned money is all gone.
Even if you still decided to give, donate to a more worthy noble cause eg Christian orphanages, old folks homes, drug rehabilitation centres, handicapped centres, missions etc.
Hope somebody directs her to the earlier blog sites before too late.
1/3 of her EPF retirement money is going to CCC building? This is the result of Richard Yun preaching " obey God now and ask why later!!" 2 weeks ago on Noah.
These Pastors will stoop so low for the money.All that is important is the "vision". Maybe the Pastors should emulate her example and also give 1/3 of their EPF money-but we all know that that will never happen.They have made a shipwreck of their faith and are dragging others down too.
Sigh......
Dear Sis- who wants to sacrifice 1/3 of her EPF. Dearest Sis.-the gifts of God are free, the love of God is also free- you do not have to feel obliged to give anything. Of course the leadership told you that God loveth a cheerful giver- Sigh.. I give up... I just do not knwo what to say...
Sorely disappointed with AOG Pastors. They should make a statement from the pulpit that they SHOULD SAVE FOR OLD AGE..... instead what they are saying is ...give money that you have access to.. ( which includes EPF money)
Every church should put up a notice outside the church saying " BEWARE-AOG PASTOR PREACHING!!" CHEH!!!PASTOR MURTAD!!!
CHARGING FOR FOOD
Which fathers would charge their children for the food they provided to them ?
Answer : Fathers in law and ungodly fathers (evil priests, pastors, etc.)
That's why ass pee said about "Eating here...and paying there !"
So "naturally", ass pee charges for "his food". Not free mind you ! And his spiritual food is far below par... In fact, inedible, cannot be eaten b'cos ass pee and his unholy as, ps, etc are UNANNOINTED ones !!!!
That's why his church "tak laku", he is klosing lots and lots of "customers".
OMG, HOLY COW !
For most people, life is a real struggle. step by step, we go through primary education, then secondary education, then if lucky, we move on to tertiary education. If not so luck, we start working secular life, with all its ups and downs, office politics and what have you's. Some really lucky make it to the top of the ladder. many along the way drop out or get knocked down.
Why not try another way to success ?
Some others, build their "empire", increasing their financial standing and social status by another "secret" way - aka "ass pee way". Start as pastors, outwardly holy and godly. Gradually build up an ever growing number of loyal worshippers who believe everything you say is "gospel truth", while surrounding yourself with "ready to die "yesmen and yeswomen" making up your church leadership hierachy of bod and ps, etc. Meanwhile, brainwash everybody else to allow you total control over the church constitution, changing any or every part of it to suit your whims and fancies. end result - you are in total control over the church and its wealth, its power, its titles, its popularity, its possessions, etc until it becomes your personal kingdom. Then show your true ugly evil nature. Nobody dares to touch you. those who oppose you, throw them out of church or ask them to "jump into the lake". Make sure not Dead Sea.
Needless to say, it's your golden calf - eveready to be milked endlessly by you and your family.
Also engage services of wheeling dealing lawyers to back up your rottenly evil schemes.
Whoever "invented" the saying "as poor as a church mouse", haven't the "privilege of knowing the "big fat cat(s) of cc.
Si si, senor ? Holy cow ... cowabungga, ninja turtles say no to monkey business.... dis ass pee, too much, really. Moses would have died of heart attacks over his bag of tricks. Lucky for Moses, too bad for us.
Now they want your EPF money? Ha.. hooo...ha..ha...ha....
We really needed this laugh!!! Thanks CC..keep up the jokes..all of us out here need it.."
An old folk says...........
Have you heard of a church where the senior pastor announced to her congregation that the old folks and retirees are excused from giving to the building fund? I have, I was told by a good friend from the above church in Jalan Ipoh that was what her pastor said.That is what I call a concerned and understanding shepherd.
But my friend, an old lady, gave and she became what I would called a willing and cheerful giver, not by compulsion and much persuasion, but because she loves the Lord and wants to be a part of the project..
A good pastor is one who creates an environment in the church for his sheep to practice good discipleship, in His Spirit and in truth.
Pray CC leaders know their roles as spiritual shepherds,not working in a money-making organization..
SO!!!!!!! ITS THE EPF MONEY NOW???DON'T THEY HAVE ANY SENSE OF SHAME??THEY SHOULD GIVE UP THEIR COMFORTABLE LIVES AS AN EXAMPLE. TO MY KNOWLEDGE, NONE OF THEM HAS DOWNGRADED THEIR CAR OR THEIR LIFESTYLE FOR CCC. HYPOCRITES !!!
THESE IS A CLASSIC EXAMPLE THAT AOG ARE JUST FRAUDS AND CONS WHO ARE THERE JUST FOR THE MONEY.HOW DISGRACEFUL!!!
Anon @210pm. Calvary does not represent every AOG church. Don't make sweeping statements. Your bitterness is showing.
Regardless of how shameful PG is or how sad we are toward him; the poor little retire lady will still give to PG to sustain his luxury lifestyle. Why? Because she was not informed. Despite many write in this blog, no one actually tell her or to the many who are still being conned.
How many decibel is this blog? Soundless. Many still uninformed. There are more people who have not been told of PG corruption than those who knew.
Personally i believe before God can bring revival, His people must bring greater awareness. BGA!!
RESPONSE TO:-
That's why ass pee said about "Eating here...and paying there !"
.............................
If you start serving crap- there is no obligation to pay.There is no such thing as a sign in any restaurant which says " EAT AT YOUR OWN RISK"
There is no more manna from heaven in CC. All that is served out is begging for money- which is cleverly disguised under sermons- the latest being Noah obeying God in spite of resistance.
God bless you all.
I worship inthe Klang vally. Last Sunday my Pastor said that TTG are sore losers- even though they lost the Court case they wont close down this blog.
It has not occured in his Pentecostal AOG brains(assuming there is worth anything there)
that Christians are free to write their opinions here in this land called Malaysia.
Again- another comedian behind the pulpit.
MAMA MIA- THEY WANT WHAT??!!!! THIS CAN ONLY HAPPEN INSIDE AN aog CHURCH.
WHY DID THEY SAY THEN THEY ARE TRUSTING GOD FOR THE MONEY?? LOOKS LIKE THEY ARE TRUSTING OUR EPF MONEY!!!
To the UM student who wrote on this blog- we were disheartened that you visit this blog. Please dont let the many write ups about errant pastors affect your studies or keep you away from church.There are good apples and many bad apples - hence the reason for this blog. The winds are blowing strongly but the roots are growing stronger.
Dont let a few hireling pastors affect your Christian journey.
God bless and take care gang.STUDY WELL, EAT WELL & REST WELL.
MARKETPLACE CHRISTIANS
GOSPEL OF CC:16
15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world,and preach faith promises to the whole world. 16:16 He that is gullible and falls for it is our man; but he that IS resistant shall be booted out 16:17 And these signs shall accompany them that obey: in my name shall they will part with their money; they shall ask no question; 16:18, and if you preach to them anything under the sun,they will believe it; you shall lay hands on their wallet, and command them to part with it. 16:19So after he had spoken unto them, and sat down at the right hand of Mammon. 16:20 And they went forth, and collected faith promises and built a mega sized building in town, the lord working with them, and confirming the delusion by the huge debts that followed.
To David Hwang. I think what Anony @2.10pm expressed is not wrong. There are just too many scandals involving AOG churches, and CC is one example. Not just him. but many others have lost their confidence and trust in AOG churches. Perhaps you should checked from the website of the so many kinds of scandals involving AOG churches. There are too many corrupted pastors who abuse their power to enrich themselves, and many members have been subjected to spiritual abuse and have brought into court for actions. I do not think its a sweeping statement about AOG churches. Its a fact.
Its not just the AOG, especially the big churches who pays their pastor well, Let this be a warning to all pastors who feel they are sitting on a pedestal. Other churches like CHC singapore also has its problems also. If the church has not come to that place it will sooner or later when they become richer and richer and they want to use the money for the sake of their own church. I mean every church pastor or church is looking out for themselves only, They may give to missions etc, but the main bulk of money still goes back to the church. It just takes one moment in the mind of the pastor where he convinces himself "I deserve this better things cause I wroked for it", watch out then, he/she is just a step away from falling. Every church and every denomination is under watch.
IT IS FINISHED !!!
PLANET X AND CLUSTER MOONS ARE VISIBLE!!!
ARE YOU READY??..OIL UP THE LAMP NOW.
MORNING STAR
Grace Assembly of God, Singapore, is the biggest AOG church in Singapore. It is building a new church at its present site with plans for a seating capacity for 2,000 and a 350 vehicles carpark at an estimated cost of SGD52 million!
The Senior Pastor Rev David Lim will hand over his position to Rev Calvin Lee in 2012. Rev David Lim will remain in Grace as the "mentor". No big titles like Senior Pastor Emeritus (David Yonggi) or General Superintendent Emeritus (bestowed on PG by AOG, Malaysia).
FROM A UM STUDENT
I am not stumbled by anything here on this blog. Frankly speaking, we learn more from the world than from church leaders or people.The real lessons are only learnt out here and not inside a church.Maybe in church we briefly find comfort from the harsh realities of life.But the real lessons cant be learned there.
For your information,one of our lecturers is also an ex-pastor( Nobody has dared to ask him about this) He is a very intelligent man and you just cant afford to miss his classes- the auditorium always packed to the maximum- about 400 students.
The problem is now and then he will start joking about church and its leaders- although the students laugh loudly- it is so humiliating for Christians that we just have to hang our heads in shame.(The joke about a lady pastor-and the banana seller- the whole crowd erupted into laughter-Christians just cringed in their seats)
How did it ever come to this? 70% of the class are Malays and half of them are wearing tudungs.Many are from Kedah and Kelantan.
There is a Christian group here- but he always avoids us like the plaque.But we do pray for him.Who knows? maybe one day we will gain his fellowship.
But its still a mystery to us here how a ex-pastor can come to this level of contempt for church pastors. Indeed a sad state of affairs.Indeed.
Regards.
Response to UM STUDENT who wrote
:-
There is a Christian group here- but he always avoids us like the plaque.But we do pray for him.Who knows? maybe one day we will gain his fellowship.
.................................
We are well aware of who the lecturer is.What does it matter to anyone if he is a former pastor?He has his own responsibilities there.The reason he is avoiding everyone is because he also sits on the Board which sets the exam papers and also one who marks the exam papers. So you can understand why he is aloof from all.If you notice- he sits with Professors only in the dining hall.It has nothing to do with avoiding Christians "like the plague".
If he is joking about curch pastors and shaming them before other students- you have to ask-what did they do to him that he has no respect for them and is humiliating them in the secular world like this?When we broach this question to other pastors they just give us an innocent look.( pretend like they don't know)
Leave him in the hands of God. God knows how to mould his clay.
Lastly-we here are just surprised at your level of maturity. You are perfectly right when you say that most of the lessons for life cannot be learnt inside a church-no matter how "above the crowd" the preacher sounds.
Grace and Peace to you. God bless you all. And don't forget- you are the next generation of lightbearers and you definitely are being prepared in His hands. All our prayers are with you.
MARKETPLACE CHRISTIANS
reply to calvanist aug 5, the topic of rich and poor may lead to some confusions if we are not careful. God wants us to be rich ?
many rich christians today said it is God's blessing, the point is NOT OKAY TO BE RICH IF YOUR NEIGBOURS ARE STRUGGLING TO PAY FOR THEIR RENTAL, OUR BRETHREN 5 AND A HALF BLOCKS AWAY COULD NOT AFFORD THEIR CHILDREN SCHOOL FEES, THE PAUL'S FAMILY DOES NOT HAVE A PROPER MEAL FOR A YEAR....LISTS GO ON...YET WHAT THE RICH DO WHEN THEY SOBERLY KNOW WHATS HAPPENING AROUND THEM, ...the answer is in THE LORD'S PRAYER...GIVE US THIS DAY OUR DAILY BREAD...NOT THAT THEY WERE POOR BUT..BUT ..THEY HAD GIVEN ALL THAT THEY HAD AND LEFT THEM WITH ALMOST NOTHINGGGG...THAT'S THE TRUE GOSPEL OF JESUS CHRIST...SO RICH YET SO POOR...so do not deceive others with selfish desires...glorify yourself with your richesss...have mercy lord...
What this sister is doing in willing to even part most of her EPF funds for church building tantamounts to 'cult' worship. Cult followers usually are willing or required to "forsake all & follow". These 'leaders' will systematically take away from members their competency to evaluate them in the light of scriptures.
There could be even others willing to "forsake all" just to follow these 'leaders' who will deceitfully tell their members that their 'act' of giving have special importance, that they are doing the will of God. Are CC pastors "servants of God" or "servants of anti-christ"?.
I always had my doubts about Protestanism.Some Pastors are okay but the majority seem to have issues.I think the problem is on the administrative side.Constitutions must be drafted in such a way that Pastors must not have a direct say in finances or to be positioned above the Church Board.It is in this 2 areas that the problem exists.If you have already noticed,Pastors only select their own "Yes Men"for the Church Board.And when they are in control of the finances- like SP-you can just imagine what they are capable of.Look at SP's words- "Plans may change but vision does not change" Yet if you trace his "vision history" he had in fact in the past identified other properties and then aborted them later under various excuses.He's manipulative and a natural hoodwinker.
There needs to be a change of ledership and mentality in the AOG. The AOG system is vey much factional. What I mean by this is that all AOG ministers have their own cliques. These are the ministers that they invite hoping to get invited in return.To be invited you must be in their league.Sorry if you pastor a small group- little respect shown to them.
I was born into a Methodist family, baptised in a Methodist church, and when I came to KL have been attending CC (AOG) for the last 22 years. Now I see the difference between the Methodist and the AOG structures. The Methodist structure is such that the current problems we are facing in CC would not have come about.
NOT OKAY TO BE RICH IF YOUR NEIGBOURS ARE STRUGGLING TO PAY FOR THEIR RENTAL, OUR BRETHREN 5 AND A HALF BLOCKS AWAY COULD NOT AFFORD THEIR CHILDREN SCHOOL FEES,
you are real dope- what kind of immature statement is that! one its not from scripture and 2 --- are you not interested in what Jesus did for you "HE BECAME POOR SO THAT YOU MIGHT BECOME RICH"
PART OF ADAM'S FALL IS POVERTY! YO!
SO THAT MEANS BY RIGHT IF YOU BECOME A CHRISTIAN GOD'S DESIRE FOR YOU IS TO BECOME RICH. IF YOU WHAT TO BE POOR BE MY GUEST BUT DON'T PUSH YOUR POVERTY MENTALITY ON CHURCHES AND CHRISTIANS!
SO THAT MEANS BY RIGHT IF YOU BECOME A CHRISTIAN GOD'S DESIRE FOR YOU IS TO BECOME RICH. IF YOU WHAT TO BE POOR BE MY GUEST BUT DON'T PUSH YOUR POVERTY MENTALITY ON CHURCHES AND CHRISTIANS!
................................
Just to be fair.I don't think the brother- whoever wrote it, was advocating poverty.The message I got from his/her writing was that I have to be sensitive to others needs.I earn enough. This week I bought some milk powder for a newborn baby in a Iranian family. The sense of blessedness I felt when I went to sleep-O Thank you God for this opportunity to serve.Christians should not feel bad about buying a plasma TV( not on credit I hope!) or a nice marble table for the family meals or new furniture.God gave us material bodies and we need these stuff. But the danger is when we allow these things to define who we are.KL people are very status conscious. Like the "..rich man who dressed in purple and fared sumptuously every day." Just could not be bothered with a needy man at his doorstep.You know the story.If you have been to some countries like India or Nepal where beggars swarm the streets- I praise and thank God for all the Christian missionaries out there who serve sacrificialy... AND I WILL ALWAYS support SUCH CHURCHES FINANCIALLY.
(I never contribute to mega buildings) I live in a nice apartment and drive a nice car and make enough money.So prosperity of poverty? I think prosperity is better ... along with a sensitive heart to the needy.
PS(I went to a certain funeral some years ago.I drafted the will of the deceased and it was in my possession as there was mistrust in the family and feared that someone would tamper with the will.No sooner had I arrived someone asked me - what did he leave behind? I answered - Sir, I assure you- he left behind EVERYTHING and did not take a cent with him.)
God bless your Sunday worship this week.Regards.Journey Well.
RESPONSE TO :
I always had my doubts about Protestanism.
...................................
I totally agree with the here.In my opinion, many of these only serve themselves under the guise of a church title created by themselves.Some of them have racist tendencies- foreigners are not welcome in their church.Such is their version of the gospel.
When God wanted to reach out to the Gentiles, he chose the most unlikely of people-Paul the Pharisee.( 100% Jewish material) No church Board or Pastor would have considered such a man for such a culturally different people.But these days, most of the pastors are frauds hiding behind a "Rev" title, fool around with the church ladies and finances,and dream of purchasing big properties.SP is just the tip of the iceberg and this fraud has become a test case for Christians in Malaysia.
He should ask the 400 axed to pray for him, instead of continuing to fleece the dumb sheep endlessly.I tell you this con has already considered the sheep's EPF money and will get to it indirectly.Somehow.
They should put up a signboard outside the CC church captioned:-
BEWARE!!!BACKSLIDDEN PASTOR PREACHING INSIDE!!
All churches should include in their constitution on the procedure to remove errant pastors.Learn a lesson from the CC episode.
It is no exaggeration to say some of these AOG Revs.are snakes in the grass.
Where does it say in Scriptures that Jesus became poor so that "we might become rich"? Even if so, we are definitely called to have the "same mind of Christ", no?
Now we know the ones that Jesus Christ warned us will arise in the last days are actually those who called themselves Reverends or Pastors. These are the false prophets or wolves in sheeps clothings who would preached in the Lord's Name behind pulpits, but are the very ones that the Lord told us not to believe in them. The clue to know they are false, Jesus warned, IS BY THEIR FRUITS. They do not live by what they preached and they implement false doctrines & twist scriptures to deceive the members and serve their own purposes only.
If ever we can find those who truly deserved to be called servants of God, then it would be very, very, very few, so few the Lord will called them His 'little flock'. The rest of the vast majority of these leaders would be the 'wolves in sheeps clothings' and their followers would be the false believers being deceived by them. This is the scenario of the present churches in the world today.
FUND RAISING 101 BY SATANIC PRIEST
To recap for the benefit of those who visit this blog only now, in summary we dumb sheep had the "great privilege" of being to contribute our hard earned savings to the church as per the list attached:
1. Tithes (compulsory)
2. Love offerings
3. Faith pledges
4. Faith promises
5. Pastors' love offerings
6. Christmas love offerings
7. "You skip meals' offerings
8. "You take bank loans" offerings
9. "You skip shopping lists" offerings
10. "You buy a brick" offerings
11. "You buy Carnival tickets / booklets" offerings
12. "You pledge your houses/cars" offeings
13. "You sponsor building materials" offerings
14. "You see how high Bro. Hann can vault" offerings
15. You see high fast Ps PO can jump" offering
16. Golf Tournaments
17. Bowling Tournaments
AND
18. Your EPF withdrwals
Apparently now, the latest "hot" technic to part us with our money is to brainwash us to withdraw our hard earned savings from EPF.
No wonder ass pee boasts about being a "terrror" businessman ! No wonder he did not mention about being a super priest !
Those crooked priests wanting to learn more, be patient please wait for more details posted Fund Raising 101.
Learn how to "milk" your sheep and "slaughter' them.
UNPREPAREDNESS / TIDAK APA ATTITUDE
During one of the recent Sunday services, PsSKum proudly presented the video clip on ccc. He made a big fanfare over the positioning of the super trusses.
Unbelievably, he made a big mistake of saying it weighed apporximately 25 tons, when it actually weighed ten times (10 X) more !
We are all very thankful to God that PsSkum is NOT the Project Director, making such serious errors with figures, relating to the supporting strengths and of super trusses, beams, bars, etc. We could not help imagining the ccc mega structure buildings collapsing, with all walls crashing down on us if left to his "Contruction INexpertise" !
We also could not help thinking that PsSkum was ill prepared for his public delivery, even though a very short one. We suspect it is a case of tidak apa attitude. We hope you have no more calling, please resign lah. let somebody else perform better if you have no mood serving God.
And getting highly paid salaries for such a cushy easy task, and doing a lousy half past six job in the church is very bad testimony. Don't you all think so ? We think, so shameful. This is not the first time. Quitlah.
So prosperity of poverty? I think prosperity is better ... along with a sensitive heart to the needy.
great point i agree 100%
however that bro was and is subcribing to a poverty mindset its all over the third world countries esp christian members - the idea is the poorer you are the holier you are if you let's say as a pastor dress trendy and his wife does hair at salon every week and he has an ipad then eyebrows go up and heads roll and the judgemental look comes and the rest follows.... if the pastor takes a holiday overseas and his member can't then come the sob stories of how so and so got no milk and so and so got no this or that and the pastor is holidaying with church money.
JESUS SAID YOU WILL ALWAYS HAVE THE POOR WITH YOU. think about that poverty with only be eradicated at the millenium.
when will you christians of the third world grow up and wise up.
CULT TEMPLE, NOT CHURCH
CC has been transformed into a cult temple. Its satanic priest had progressively diverted its congregation of believers from the right path, towards its eventual destruction. CCC is beleived to be designed by an archtitect, allegedly Freemason, a secret cult in US, with many international connections. Certain portions of its designs allegedly incorporated the image of a serpent, symbol for Satan. Another portion allegedly incorporated a Pharoah's tomb - again symbolism for satanic worship. There are numerous telltale signs of this current evil leadership, cultivating a cult worship of Satan. all of which help explains why sp is behaving and speaking in such UN CHRISTIAN manner, like sacking 400 plus members, being against truth, transparency and godly governance, being unwilling to reconcile the diffrerences, rejecting accountability, etc.
We, and many besides us, have already forewarned in our earlier blogs. Please read them for wisdom.
CULT TEMPLE, NOT CHURCH
Thanks Anon August 13, 2011 5:35 PM for this reminder lest we forget especially for new readers and those who are still attending their services and have not read this blog yet.
God bless you all.
Where does it say in Scriptures that Jesus became poor so that "we might become rich"?
this shows that you don't know the Bible
2 Corinthians 8:9 (NKJV)
9 For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though He was rich, yet for your sakes He became poor, that you through His poverty might become rich.
The following had been posted earlier. Repeat for those new to this blog.
When you go to a place to worship God, that is a church.
When you go to a place to worship man, that is a cult.
When you preach above the love of God that helps the poor and needy, that is following the Bible.
When you preach about money to live a rich and luxurious lifestyle, that is Hollywood.
This is an extract from an article dated 5 Jul 2011: David Cho: the retired pastor who won't quit.
Here's the latest scandal from David Yonggi Cho of Yoido Full Gospel Church ostensibly the largest church in the world. He retired three years ago, but has kept his hands in every pocket of church finances and in February 2011, started to make a "comeback."In March 2011, the transition team at Yoido urged the Cho family to stay out and limit their involvement. At stake are, for example:
the post of president of Hansi University, a private evangelical university,
ownership-management of Elim welfare Town, a Christian retirement complex/resort,
ownership-management of Kukminilbo, a Christian newspaper for which Cho's younger son is currently the President.
And this isn't even counting the multiple private residences and office buildings worth billions. Cho commented: He's "greatly angered" and threatens that :if the Elders continue behaving this way," he might just leave his baby and establish another church.
Cho is 75 years old and founded Yoido when he was 37 years old.
Isn't there a similarity between Cho and the CEO at CC?
give credit where credit is due--
the premier of korea via video commended ps cho to the members thanking him for his life long work and servise to korea. he said that ps cho played a major part in the building of korea by "preaching faith and hope to the ppl when they had nothing"
i saw the video thru internet as i follow the servise every weekend.
Today 14 Aug. during collection time, SK said that in 2012, CCC needs RM6 mil. The next remark was very crude and unpleasant - he said "will some rich person who dies give RM6 mil. to him for CCC." Even the dead are sought after if they have the money. As in limbo rock - how low can you go!
Ngeow made a projection regarding CCC that when completed, income will come in via rental of the hall. His dream has gone up in smoke. Question - will any secular organization rent the hall for a multi-races function after the debacle concerning a church in Petaling Jaya?
Also, will another church rent CCC's hall for their own function? Unlikely because this will raise a lot of questions and comments from its members like "if CC can build such an awesome church, why can't they do it, too?" So, there goes the feasibility of getting income from rentals.
Referring to Anonymous Aug 14, at 12.06pm, again its money, money, money. David Cho won't quit for the money.
CC is set to have related activities soon with two prominent personalities who are or had been mired in controversies.
Richard Roberts, former President of Oral Roberts University.
For more reading:
Type: wikipedia richard roberts scandal and google,
PG is a member of the Board of References of ORU. Richard Roberts is scheduled to speak during the Golf tournament.
David Yonggi Cho, founder of Church International.
For more reading:
Type: wikipedia david yonggi cho and google.
CC is organizing a trip to the Church Growth Conference 2011 in Seoul.
Is it correct that PF is also on the Board of the Church Growth International?
Rather demotivating isn't it when you see the figure on stage speaking but are surrounded by controversies. No issue because they are close to PG. Well? Doesn't birds of the same feather flock together?
Now we know the ones that Jesus Christ warned us will arise in the last days are actually those who called themselves Reverends or Pastors.
...................................
The above statement is just so true.My Church Rev.always finds time for the young ladies in the church.Trips here and there under various guises.And the Church Board is all in his pockets- all Yes men.His favourite sermonbs are "submission to authority". If you ask me- this is one insecure man shouting from a pulpit.
Fr CT @ August 14, 2011 1:36 PM
A family of 5 who still worshipped in CC mentioned that they are glad that the episode of the CC saga had now ended with victory for CC leadership. However, they are almost unware of what TTG had been fighting for, justice to church members that CC leadership must practise Transparency, Accountability & Good governmance. They are not even aware of the spiritual misdeeds committed by PG and his pastors. There must be many others like them too, not been made aware of the true situation regarding CC pastors as they do not know how to use or get into this blog. Earlier someone commented on this blog, that CT should come out with some plans or strategies to bring greater awareness (BGA)to other ignorant or uninformed members on the spiritual unrighteousness commited by PG, his pastors & BOD. Until now was mentioned by CT on BGA. Depending on this blog is just not enough. How about printing and distributing leaflets or a booklet to more unaware members. I believe if this can be doned, I am sure more will not support them & TOTT.
Yes BGA is the only answer.Maybe the TTG and concerned members can do just a small leaflet and put it on the windscreens of the cars that are parked outside the church during the services or weekday meetings.TTG already have a very good informative website.Just give them the website address besides some some details.God Bless you all in the TTG.
Response to
My Church Rev.always finds time for the young ladies in the church.Trips here and there under various guises.And the Church Board is all in his pockets- all Yes men.His favourate sermons are "submission to authority". If you ask me- this is one insecure man shouting from a pulpit.
................................
Maybe he has something up his sleeve already.And by the time he is exposed- the damage is already done and and just like the others he will walk into the sunset.This blog has made may pastors fidgety.There are only a few AOG Pastors who have integrity- One man is the Rev Ng Kok Kee of BCM.A man of deep intellect and a blessing to many in the body of Christ-including me. Others are plain backslidden and do not want to be left out from the "church building"competition.These are the ones who are after titles and names. Maybe the AOG constitution should be amended to state that ministers must spend at least 2 years holding a secular job before being licensed as a minister.Maybe that will cure them of their "Tai Koh" attitude in church.Tell me, how many come across as servants of Christ these days??? In my experience most of them come across as "superior to you" attitude. I have even heard an AOG slash down another minister. This self righteous attitude is so prevalent in the AOG church.But they forget the filth that is on their own back.
A MAN OF GOD???
In 2007 Copeland was accused of using his $20 million Cessna Citation X jet for personal vacations and friends.The Copeland's financial records are not publicly available,and a list of the Board of Directors is not accessible as these details are protected and known confidentially by the Internal Revenue Service.Responding to media questions, Copeland pointed to an accounting firm's declaration that all jet travel complies with federal tax laws.
In December 2008, Copeland's 1998 Cessna Bravo 550, his second jet, valued at $3.6 million, was denied tax exemption after Copeland refused to submit to disclosure laws for the state of Texas.
All AOG churches learn a lesson from the CC episode.Have a strong Board and keep the Senior Pastor away from finances.He is supposed to serve the church-not the other way around.Stand up against spiritual abuses.Otherwise your church will face the same problem- 400 booted out and the pastor just goes about his business cooly as though he has done nothing wrong.And after all these years of fleecing the church dumb sheep of money- from faith promises to faith pledges.... now it is the EPF money. These are the AOG wolves in our midst.Just imagine- skip a meal and the food money is asked by the church. I tell you there is a Pentecostal reprobate on the loose- no apologies here. That is the whole truth.What kind of Pastor will be requesting for EPF money? Both his eyes reflect $$ signs.
Ninja Turtles say no to Monkey Business.
Very sad to read all this. I used to skip meals and give the money ... to Malaysian CARE for the poor not to the church :-)
If only CC was in the news for reasons like that of DUMC. For sticking their neck out to help the poor and underprivileged of all communities.
I am "proud" that in my church, fund raising for our modest addition to our church is voluntarily. NO pressure is emphasized. Offerings are free will and in fund raisers you get value for money. For example, you donate $5 for a meal that outside you might pay $8 to $10. But if you do not wish to donate, you are still invited to eat and no one will know as the money is not collected as you eat. It's so there can be stronger fellowship while helping. If you want to give more, no problem.
Pledges? Yes of course but it is a secret that only 3 people know the amounts and no one will demand if you cannot fulfill. And the pastor is not one of the three. Pledges are needed to gauge support for the project. For if there is no support and pledges are low it is not an issue of faith but wisdom to question the building project.
Posted by Anonymous to Calvary Today at August 16, 2011 7:29 AM
Pledges? Yes of course but it is a secret that only 3 people know the amounts and no one will demand if you cannot fulfill.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
CC used to be like that BUT, the last few years (perhaps it's due to the obsessive focus on CCC), it has been reported that those who are slow or couldn't fulfil their Faith Promise would receive a letter to remind them to fulfil their Faith Promise Pledges.
Whatever happened to PG's often made promise that Faith Promise is between the believer & God (& that nobody will keep track/check whether the believer was fulfilling his/her Faith Promise or not)?
From all this, one can only conclude that PG (& his gang - BOD's & APs) are only interested in harvesting as much CASH as possible from the congregation; they are no longer interested in harvesting SOULS for God's Kingdom. Thus, it shows that PG has lost God's calling & CC has lost God's anointing; CC is NO longer a Church, it is a CULT with PG as it's Cult leader/priest.
May God have mercy on the "dumb" sheep/followers, who are still following PG blindly, by opening up their eyes, ears & minds so that they can see PG for whom he is - a man obsessed with building his own kingdom here on earth.
All AOG churches learn a lesson from the CC episode.Have a strong Board and keep the Senior Pastor away from finances.He is supposed to serve the church-not the other way around.
.....................................
This is easier said than done.Our man is one headstrong man. Forget about humility.
................................
Today 14 Aug. during collection time, SK said that in 2012, CCC needs RM6 mil. The next remark was very crude and unpleasant - he said "will some rich person who dies give RM6 mil. to him for CCC." Even the dead are sought after if they have the money. As in limbo rock - how low can you go!
By Anonymous of August 14, 2011 2:39 PM
-----------------------------------------------------------------
They say that if you tell a lie often enough; very soon, you yourself will actually believe that the lie is the truth.
Most CC members & ex-members may not be aware that PG has been giving Birthday hampers to CC members, aged 65+ (or it is 60+?), ONLY since early 2008. Why ONLY since early 2008 & not before that?
Well, in Jan 2008, a rich single lady went home to the Lord & left RM 1m in her will to CC (for mission work) so this must have caused PG to realised that this is a NEW area/field that he can work on to squeeze more CASH from CC members.
Tsk, Tsk, PG!!! Men may only see you on the surface BUT God sees your heart for what it is - manipulative, deceitful, proud, greedy, lustful, wicked, self-glorifying, etc., etc. ..........
Some of you may be wondering "You mean PG got so much time to go around to give Birthday hampers ah?" No, PG did NOT give the hampers personally, he just reduced the APs to be the Postmen; oops, I mean, the DHL/Fedex/UPS Deliverymen.
STOP PRESS: After 3 years of giving Birthday hampers, it seems now PG is grouping up the Birthday "boys & girls" to have a Birthday lunch/dinner with them (is it so that there is a more personal touch by PG himself? Or is it so that PG can get to eat FOC & charge to CC's coffers? You decide for yourselves lah)
Well, in Jan 2008, a rich single lady went home to the Lord & left RM 1m in her will to CC (for mission work) so this must have caused PG to realised that this is a NEW area/field that he can work on to squeeze more CASH from CC members.
..................................
Wel only SP will know the extent of his deceptions.And he will probably take his secrets to the grave with him. RM1M to CC. Did the $$ really go out to missions?? To SP 's mind,CCC is also an extended missions- so most probably the $$ would have boomeranged back to them. This Emeritius is one super-conman on the loose.Like Caiaphas & Ananias- made his money through religion.
SP's SONG TO 400 AXED
[Revised version of
Engelbert Humperdinck]
Please release me
and get lost
For I
Don't need you anymore
To waste our lives
Would be a sin
Release me
And let me build CCC again
God told me
To build a new CCC brethren
And I will always
Want her near
Her vision warms my heart
While present CC is not enough
Release and get lost,you 400
Because you dont share my vision.
Those who are dying,
Please donate 6 Million
Why take the money to the grave?
My CCC vision needs it more than you.
At your grave I will say a special prayer for you,
And also for mine for fleecing you.
Mines the money, yours is the grave
CCC must go on- no matter what!!!
SP's statement- " I dont preach about money"
MONEY MATTERS AT CC
1. Tithes (compulsory)
2. Love offerings
3. Faith pledges
4. Faith promises
5. Pastors' love offerings
6. Christmas love offerings
7. "You skip meals' offerings
8. "You take bank loans" offerings
9. "You skip shopping lists" offerings
10. "You buy a brick" offerings
11. "You buy Carnival tickets / booklets" offerings
12. "You pledge your houses/cars" offeings
13. "You sponsor building materials" offerings
14. "You see how high Bro. Hann can vault" offerings
15. You see high fast Ps PO can jump" offering
16. Golf Tournaments
17. Bowling Tournaments
AND
18. Your EPF withdrwals
THE LATEST- GIVE 6M BEFORE YOU DIE!! IA HAVE SERIOUS DOUBTS WHETHER THIS IS A CHURCH.
OURS IS A MEDIUM SIZED CHURCH.OUR PASTOR APPEARS RATHER HUMBLE THESE DAYS AFTER THIS BLOG CAME ABOUT.I THINK HE REALIZES THAT HIS DAYS OF CONNING ARE UP.HE EVEN CANCELLED PASTORS DAY RECENTLY-CLAIMING THAT HE ONLY ACCEPTED GIFTS BECAUSE MEMBERS INSISTED ON GIVING HIM GIFTS AND NOT HE HIMSELF REQUESTED ANYTHING.SO WHY DID HE NOT PROTEST ALL THESE YEARS? NICE ALL PAID FOR HOLIDAYS FOR HIMSELF AND WIFE AT THE CHURCH EXPENSE.I AM GLAD SOMEONE EXPOSED THIS PASTORS CON ON THIS BLOG.CHEERS!!!
CHUCHES NOWADAYS TALKED MORE ABOUT GIVING MORE MONEY THAN ABOUT SALVATION IN GOD. THEY ARE ACTUALLY PRACTISING BRAINWASHING, MIND CONTROL AND OPPRESSION TECHINQUES UPON THEIR MEMBERS TO OBTAIN MORE MONEY. MEMBERS THEREFORE UNKNOWLINGLY ARE HELD UNDER THIS BONDAGE. LIKE CALVARY CHURCH, THESE PASTORS ARE THE MODERN-DAY MONEY CHANGERS, SIMILAR TO THOSE WHO JESUS THREW THEM OUT OF THE TEMPLE.
Hi Ah Beng, I can vouch that CC keeps track of the receipts of the pledges of those who made the pledges.
My spouse had received a letter informing her that she was not paying her building fund pledge some time back. She did fulfilled her pledges but she was using different names when signing up and when paying. Anyway we have ceased giving to CCC because the cost has escalated beyond logic from RM50 mil to now a whopping RM200 mil. No detailed breakdown of the various aspects of the cost were given and whatever SK says, it only has the barest minimum of details. And also CCC is designed by a freemason - freemasonry symbols are often incorporated into the design subtlety. (Washington D.C. was design by a freemason).
When as a student my son had voiced his limited financial resources to SK. SK replied that the giving is between him and God and if he is troubled, he can give anonymously.
The tagline "your giving is between you and God" is not applicable any more to PG and the AP's. Today's tagline is "fulfill your pledges, the church needs the money to meet progress payment". Or "hoping for a rich person gives RM6 mil to CCC when the person dies".
My daughter can be considered as successful in her career had been giving generously to CC and CCC.
She was disillusioned at one of the functions at the hockey stadium at Bukit Jalil. During the function after the usual collection was done, PG went on stage and said something like "God gave him a message to have a collection for CCC". She realized then that it is always give, give and give.
Both my son and daughter are no more in CC and are happier attending another church. Previously, they will give me an earful if I raise any questions on the way the church is administrated or accountability of the money used. It's a different story today!
The following is in the STAR dated 16 Aug.2011 on page 14:
"He was responding to an online portal which had claimed that DUMC was an 'illegal church'.
The report said a permit was given for the construction of a community hall where the DUMC was built on but not a church."
How about CC's new church? It is known as CALVARY CONVENTION CENTRE. Was the building approval/permit for a church or a convention centre as in Sime Darby Convention or Kuala Lumpur Convention? If the approval is for a convention centre and CC turns it into a church, there will by plenty of trouble ahead.
SK was speaking out of turn during the offering time on Sunday's service.
Then when service was over, he tried to keep the people in the sanctuary back to "welcome first time visitors". Failure to welcome first time visitors by SK is rather frequent. I thought this was intentional as often there are no first time visitors. However last Sunday, it dawned on me that it is SK's slip-ups.
Guess the pressure is building up and it has affected SK's composition.
Outwardly, SK puts on a nice facade - CCC progressing well, Faith Promise good. As a Missions Director, he is having a nightmare as monthly Faith Promise collection is nowhere near the monthly pledge and building fund collection is so poor that CC has scrapped the yearly Building Fund pledge this year i.e.2011. PG and SK has reduced the monthly missions budget expenditure and will sweep as much money as possible from the Faith Promise collection to CCC. He is so desperate that he said "hoping when a rich man dies, he will give RM6 mil to CCC".
WHAT A WORLD OF DIFFERENCE IN CHURCH PRACTICE ON FINANCES
This is an extract from a writer in a global Christian forum (http://www.christianforumsite.com/threads/christian-offering)
Quote:
In many churches and denominations in UK pastors or ministers are unable to get their hands on any money directly. My church like most others has a committee with an appointed treasurer. Any money spent will have to be approved by the committee, with any cheques having to be signed by two people, therefore if any money is misused and goes to inappropriate places, then it is the committee who is accountable to God , not the person who gave their tithe in good faith and trust. After meeting our expenses and needs money left over is divided amongst a number of Christian organizations we support.
Unquote
From what I read in this blog, most of the Malaysian AOG pastors act as though they own the church and its funds and do what they like – no wonder there is always hanky-panky business going around.
Thanks for the many write ups in this blog. My Pastor too has disappeared from the teh tarik stalls.Usually sits there for hours chatting.Probably the best job in the world.No supervisor to report to.Just carry on like he is the boss.Completely disappeared.Probably has been reading this blog.This blog is doing wonders.
Relieved.
To Anonymous @ 16 Aug 10.22pm
She was disillusioned at one of the functions at the hockey stadium at Bukit Jalil. During the function after the usual collection was done, PG went on stage and said something like "God gave him a message to have a collection for CCC.
I can tell you the call for a collection to be taken for CCC was not spontaneous as before the service started the ushers were instructed to be ready for the announcement from the pulpit. It was planned ahead of time...only question is did the HS bring such a conviction to collect a special offering for CCC?
To Anonymous Aug. 17, 1:09pm.
You are correct that the collection for CCC on that morning was planned earlier. After the first collection was done, you can see the ushers holding the bags standing at the aisles waiting for the signal from PG.
Yet PG has the cheek to say that this collection was not planned but a call from above.
LETS FACE IT:....
He was responding to an online portal which had claimed that DUMC was an 'illegal church'.
The report said a permit was given for the construction of a community hall where the DUMC was built on but not a church."
...................................
It is common knowledge that most of the AOG churches are rented rooms, buildings or some hotel premises.Those who purchased properties oftentimes registered it as an Association,Sole Proprietorship or as a Sdn.Bhd.( I used to worship at a church that was registered as a Persatuan)The key factor is to keep it under the pastors own control.Quite a few AOG pastors are more shrewd.They are reluctant to purchase church properties under the AOG trusteeship because they forsee that as the church grows numerically and financially,they may not want to be under the AOG system anymore. The reasons to me are obvious-it is somewhat difficult to lose church control to others when there are a few million dollars in the Bank.After all - THE aog PASTOR SLOGGED FOR IT.I can name a few pastors who had done this- but I will not try.
Now for the whole truth. When these pastors want to register their felowship under a Company or what nots- most of them are not truthful. Instead of being described as a church- they will call it an association,educational centre, community hall, persatuan this or persatuan that..etc etc.I am not here to criticize or defend ANYTHING but Christians need to face up to the truth.
CCC will not be registered as a Church -but as a centre.This is the only way you can rent it out to Buddhists, Hindus, Fa Loong Gong , Sai Baba Groups for the much needed $$$.There are many ways in which the leadership can justify this.
In New York City pastors are already beginning to justify abortion- namely that God aborted the first baby that David and Bath-Sheba conceived due to adultery. Nice interpretation.
From what I observe, SP, SK, RY and the rest have degenerated into liars of sorts.Fancy asking RM6 million as though he was asking for RM6. It is demonstrative of their mind right now. And the announcement about firsttimer is just to hoodwink.Were there any first timers last week? I tried to search but found none.
CC has become a den of thieves and robbers.
Song Writer.
God gave him a message to have a collection for CCC.
.................................
THAT WAS NOT A MESSAGE FROM GOD. IT WAS THE WORK OF SP UP TO HIS CON TRICKS AGAIN.
HES BECOME FROM BAD TO WORSE.
Ha Ha...
My Pastor too has disappeared from the teh tarik stalls
............
Mine has gone missing from the "teh tarik" sessions too. Claims he has work to do in office. Finally!!Its about time too!!!
"God gave him a message to have a collection for CCC.
...........................
God gave what message...???
HA...HA...HO...HOO..HAHAHAHAHAH..
What a Pentecostal Joker!!!
To Anony.16th Aug. 10.22pm. Since we all know CCC is not from God, it cannot be the HS that brought a oonviction for a special offering. The words that "God gave him a message to have a collection of CCC" are uttered & lyed by PG's own mouth.
If ever God wants to build something, He will by His own supernatural power and ways to get the funds. But HE will never come to His children & pressure them for money, their family savings or even their EPF. Its just not the nature and character of an all caring, all understanding and an all loving Heavenly Father to do such a thing. If CC pastors preached otherwise, don't listen to them. Listen to God and seek His wisdom. The Bible says we don't need any man to teach us, but the Holy Spirit of God, which is the Spirit of Truth that lives in us will lead our hearts to all His truth. Its our faith in Him that God looks for, not any success of any man-made ambition, like CCC.
Last Sunday's preaching,the visitng AOG Rev. claimed that he and his wife had never a serious quarrel even after 20 years of marriage their love is as fresh as ever.!!
Excuse me Rev???Who are trying to deceive? You must be thinking that church people are real bodoh with a capital "L"!!!!!
BORN LOSER AGAIN
Judging from the DUMC fiasco, we beleieve we could, relatively speaking, safefly draw the inevitable conclusion that ass pee's proposal of renting out the premises of the socalled convention hall is a failed idea and unproductive as a future source of income for ccc. It seemed a terribly flawed hypothesis because logically we think nobody from Muslim, Buddhist or even toher christian organisations including rival churches would want its followers to be confused or even seen in socalled ccc !!!!!!! There would be a tendency for conflict of interest, won't it ? People would sure ask their religious leaders why would our temples/mosques/other religious places of worship hold meetings/seminars/conferences in a church ?
Right, ass pee ? Not so smart after all lah. In fact, we think very stupid idea.
In the early days- so many were eager to be trained for the ministry.Today- such desire has diminished considerably.
One reason is that Pastors believe that they are trained for leadership.... but they forget the other side- training for servanthood.So its natural that pastors are eager to give orders to the chuch people- but are reluctant to take suggestions.In their minds they are the boss and we are just the lay people- no need to be accountable to the many laypeople sitting in the pews.My family has moved on to an non-AOG church due to a certain matter involving the pastor.
It seems that he has some issues with certain other AOG Pastors and tends to spread it to the others at the teh tarih stalls-mainly to the youth and to anyone who has misfortune of being in his company.In our familys opinion, these are dangerous accusations.
Nobody has confronted him about this but he is the typical AOG sort.Once ordained as the Rev-he believes he is at the top of the church. Judging by the comments he has made, he is better off pastoring a Chinese congregation than a racially diverse one.
We do not see that this man will change anytime soon. So the only thing left for us is to move on to a spiritually healthier atmosphere.WE as a family did not pray about it- but all of us felt in our hearts that it was time to go.Others have left too. And he has replaced all of them- including ordaining a rich divorcee as a Deaconess.
To those at CC- I think the battle is spiritual rather than natural.It is our belief tha CC is not in Gods will right now.Jesus is our Shephard- and he is in the restoring and reconciling business- not in the axing business. Someday- somehow- SP and gang will have to reap what they have sown.
And to those AOG leaders who did nothing but sat quietly- we want to say thank you.At least the greater community of Christ knows where you stand on issues like this.
(NECF should not be commenting on Bersih rallies- because you do not have the moral clout to do so.Face the facts.)
Grace and Peace to all this Sunday worship.God bless you all.
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